´óÏó´«Ã½

Perhaps she checked and discovered nobody had done this, perhaps she has a million better things to do like building a wall along the Tamar

The net result will not have any impact on second home buyers a much vilified beast in the west for being successful. Outside of a few in MK nobody cares, the net result will not change any election or vote, basically a case of fiddling whilst Cornwall council burns money me thinks

"The official in charge of writing it, Richard Williams, has just told councillors that it was felt "inappropriate" to trouble the deputy Prime Minister during Parliament's summer recess."

Who is in charge of this council, the elected representatives, or the hired help?

"Richard said the letter has at least now been drafted and will be posted in the next few weeks."

Few weeks!
How long does it take to wright a letter, sign it, put it in an envelope, address the envelope, stick a stamp on the envelope, and walk down to the nearest post box?

Perhaps the hired help should be on piece work.

What nonsense! The meeting of the electoral review panel was on 2 July. Parliament did not recess until 27 July. Why could the letter not have gone in July?
Anyway, I seem to recall Nick Clegg was in the office during August while Dave was on his summer hols here in Cornwall – I’m sure Nick would have been checking the post.
Is this the same Richard Williams who gave the legal thumbs up to the £78,750 payment to Peter Lewis? Bet it didn’t take over two months to do that.

Perhaps the avoidable and apparently intentional delay was politically motivated?

On whose part,one has to wonder...

The comments of P_Trembath and John Macloud seem fair and reasonable.

Perhaps our super 'investigative' 'journalist' Graham 'Where are my tights' Smith will get to the real bottom of this mystery...

Seasoned letter writers on the public payroll can rarely, in all the long history of human letter writing, have exhibited such difficulty in stringing a few concise sentences together.

Crack on, Mr Smith - let us know what you find in the Currie p(l)ot!

And where is the evidence of how many people have abused the system, this theoretical exploit smacks of desperation and conspiracy which simply does not exists

Stick to crop circles

There isn't any evidence is there? Just supposition. And without a national register it would be well-nigh impossible to establish the facts.

Given that only about 30% of us vote in local elections and about 60% in national ones, perhaps AccurateChronometer could concentrate on getting the vote out.

"And where is the evidence of how many people have abused the system"

From here:- /blogs/grahamsmith/2010/07/second_home_voters_escape_scru.html

"As I understand it the Panel is making the following recommendations: that the idea of cross-referencing the council tax discount register with the electoral roll will be considered"

Which would tend to suggest that the whole point of sending a letter would be to start a process that would answer your question.


"this theoretical exploit smacks of desperation and conspiracy which simply does not exists"

The fact that the council wish to discover if there are instances of illegal voting in elections in Cornwall is one issue, and your comments clearly indicate your opinion on this. Many would argue that your comments are a tad extreme, although, I am sure that our elected representatives have heard worse.

But, the issue raised by the original blog, that of the wishes of the elected members of the council being, all but, ignored by those who are employed to carry out those wishes, seems to be something that does not worry you.

A simple question Mr. Tregantle, who should be in charge of our council, the elected members, or the hired help?

Theoretical Evidence of something which is not illegal still not shown

To waste cabinet time on an issue at least offer examples of when the alleged abuse has happened, many do not even bothering to vote. Bigger fish and all that

This isn't theory, Andrew.
In the UK there are people registered more than once on the electoral rolls.
In a democracy that should not be the case.
The full extent to which it is should be identified and quantified.
And put right.
Do you agree?

AccurateChronometer where is the evidence they are voting more than once?

Where is the evidence of how many people care enough to vote more than once?

BTW I must point to Trembath there is nothing illegal about voting more than once in a council election.

Thank you Mr. Tregantle, but not quite right. It is illegal to vote more than once in the same council election.
So, it is OK to vote in elections for Cornwall council and Essex Council, but not to vote twice in an election for the same council. Just as it is OK to vote in elections for both the Welsh assembly, and the UK Parliament, but not twice in an election for either. (That is, assuming you meet all the correct qualifying criteria)

But. the question I asked you, was:- "who should be in charge of our council, the elected members, or the hired help?"

Mr 'Tregantle'. You say 'AccurateChronometer where is the evidence they are voting more than once?'
Where is the evidence they are not?
The fact is that, currently, electoral registration arrangements across the UK are so opaque that verification either way is not readily possible.
Much greater transparency is necessary to enable the truth to be revealed.
BTW, Mr 'Tregantle', under current non-democratic Electoral Law it can be both legal and illegal to vote more than once in council elections. Perhaps you need to study the subject before you spout spuriousities.

Oh dear AccurateChronometer learn to read

And I quote myself

"…Illegal about voting more than once in a council election…"

The important word is COUNCIL.

A much bigger problem is young people not being registered to vote

If a person owns multiple homes they are free to decide where they cast the vote, it is not a crime to register in multiple locations so long as the vote you are taking part in you only vote once.

I have little doubt the nationalists fascination with this subject is mainly due to the recent national election which saw MK support fall to lowest levels since they decided to run, no surprise given they are a protest party.

Without evidence of abuse this is not an issue

So, Mr 'Tregantle', please confirm that you are saying 'There is nothing illegal about voting more than once in a COUNCIL election'.
Is that a correct representation of what you are claiming?

Andrew Jacks.

How about adopting this point of view:
'Without transparency and ready access to scrutiny by Electoral Registrars across all constituencies this is an issue'.
And this one:
'In the interests of ensuring equality of vote value for all, multiple house owners will, in the near future, only be able to vote in all elections in the constituency of their house of primary residence'.
Any problems with that?
How about adopting this point of view while you're at it:
'All electoral registers should be freely accessible to all Electoral Roll Registrars to enable thorough and proper scrutiny and elimination of multiple registrations in different constituencies throughout the UK'
Any problems with that?

He didn't say that. He said you can register in as many locations as you like but only vote in one of them. I have no idea if he is right.

What would be helpful would be to know:

1. How many second home owners are registered here and somewhere else.
2. How many second home owners vote here.

Presumably the council tax database shows how many are paying the reduced council tax, but given the absence of an national electoral register, how would you find out if they are registered more than once? And if they are - how would you find out if they actually voted?

I would think that the number of 2nd home owners voting in Cornwall amounts to a few hundred. Would that matter? And I expect that you are assuming they all vote Tory.

As your observations confirm, 'backofanenvelope', there is much to be sorted out.
Incidentally, here is the direct quote of what 'Peter Tregantle' wrote earlier and which AC requoted and which you tell us he 'didn't say':
"BTW I must point to Trembath there is nothing illegal about voting more than once in a council election."

I am right.



Although it is not illegal to be registered in more than one place, it is illegal to vote twice in an election. For example, in a general election, you may choose which constituency to vote in on polling day.

Not quite right actually, Andrew(and in any case what's fair about that? - vote flipping and transferability legitimised by property ownership?).
If you study the Electoral Commissions rules you will find that proof of 'equal residence' is required - a very rare thing to be possible or able to prove.

In addition, as local government elections are defined as 'single' elections it is possible, in the current mess and lax regime, for a person with, say, two, three or four houses who has registered to vote in three or four constituencies to place two, three or four votes in two, three or four local government elections with very little likelihood of detection and probably in whichever of those constituencies they want in a UK general election and probably more than one if they wanted to without much chance of detection.
That's the current reality.

Very good link Andrew

So if it is already illegal. All people need to do is apply the law, firstly finding out if it has been broken.

It would seem we have come full circle but the fact remains we need to find out if anyone has committed this offence, reading that article it would seem it is the constituencies registration officer who are responsible for controlling the declaration of local connection and for ensuring nobody abuses the system

Quote - For example, if you have a holiday home but spend only a few days there each year, you may not be considered to be 'resident' there. However, if you spend most weekends there, the registration officer (chief electoral officer in Northern Ireland) may well consider you are eligible to be included in the register. If you wish to appeal against a decision to exclude you from the register, you should follow the correct procedure

And how does any Electoral Returning Officer in a UK General Election ascertain whether or not the multiple house owner voted in the constituencies where his primary residence or any other houses are along with the amount of 'residence' time claimed for those in order to qualify/disqualify duplicate voting in the constituency of his/her responsibility?

Peter Tregantle wrote:-
"Very good link Andrew

So if it is already illegal. All people need to do is apply the law, firstly finding out if it has been broken."

"Firstly finding out if it has been broken" Hmm.

From yesterday

Peter Tregantle wrote:-
"And where is the evidence of how many people have abused the system"

To which I replied
"From here:- /blogs/grahamsmith/2010/07/second_home_voters_escape_scru.html

"As I understand it the Panel is making the following recommendations: that the idea of cross-referencing the council tax discount register with the electoral roll will be considered"

Which would tend to suggest that the whole point of sending a letter would be to start a process that would answer your question."

So, what we have is a situation where the Council have decided to attempt to find out if the law has been broken. To this end, they requested a letter be sent to the deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, to confirm the law regarding this, and then to cross reference the council tax discount register with the electoral roll. They asked for this letter to be sent back at the beginning of July.

So far, so good.
As you suggest, they are merely seeking to apply the law. Something that you have to give them credit for, you and they are, obviously, in agreement.
Mind you, I pointed this out yesterday, and 11 posts ago. It was also, blogged about here back at the beginning of July.

Now, we get to the bit that you keep ignoring.

"The official in charge of writing it (the requested letter), Richard Williams, has just told councillors that it was felt "inappropriate" to trouble the deputy Prime Minister during Parliament's summer recess.

Our elected representatives gave council employees a task, to write and send a letter. A task that they completely ignored for over 2 months, and then, not when first given the task, but now, 2 months later, claim that it was felt "inappropriate" to send it when asked to do so.

It would seem that the hired help considers itself above our elected representatives

I will ask you once again, Mr Tregantle, who should be in charge of our council, the elected members, or the hired help?

I see little point countering the two comments above when Andrews comment draws a line under this subject, the law already exists, any further worries you might have speak to your local MP, unless evidence of abuse are shown I doubt anyone will care

Anyone requiring the answer see Comment 21

The unanswered question:

By what means and mechanisms does any Electoral Returning Officer in a UK local government or General Election ascertain whether or not the multiple house owner voted in the constituencies where his primary residence or any other houses are - along with the amount of 'residence' time claimed for those - in order to qualify/disqualify duplicate voting in the constituency of his/her responsibility in order to sign off any local or UK general election as 'free and fair' ?

I will ask you once again, Mr Tregantle, who should be in charge of our council, the elected members, or the hired help?

The ability to flip was set in stone from a time when travel from property to property took days. Everyone voting knows it is a criminal offence to vote more than once so run that risk.

I think the evicted members of TIC need to rethink this line of attack, it holds nothing for nationalists and if you ask it seems they are trying learn rather than add value to the discussion

Graham without evidence of people exploiting the system this route of yours is meaningless

There is plenty of evidence, 'CornEngScholar'.
It is just waiting to be revealed.

That aside for the moment, you wouldn't have any objections to the strict allocation of one vote to each person of voting age in the UK verifiable by a transparent and enforced single vote per person electoral registration regime would you, 'CornEngScholar'?