大象传媒

By shallowly seeking to infer some kind of equivalence between jedi identification and the long denied right to formal tick box self-identification as Cornish you don't come across as much of a friend to the Cornish or long standing Cornish aspiration for proper recognition, Mr Smith. You do yourself no favours and come across as a cynical, ethnic diversity disparaging anglo-imperialist tool.

No AC its one of the few times the British people have shown the ability to protest, for a person seeking to start such a fight it is you that is missing a trick.

Hardly, Saltashgaz.

Cornwall Council's Guidance for those who wish to record their identity as 'Cornish' in the UK 2011 Census:

Video info:

It's a serious subject, Mr Smith.
Perhaps you will to give it more serious attention and more serious treatment.
Or are you yet another 大象传媒 anglo-centric-imperialist ethnic cleanser attempting to do to the Cornish what the English did to the Scots and the Irish backalong.
21st Century Cornish Clearances?
David Cameron seems to be busy trying it on with his PVS&C Bill.

Or even if that the "self-identifying ethnic group" is Cornish or West Welsh?

There you go again, Mr Smith - denigrating away.
If you must make such ridiculous numerical comparisons you would have better compared 34,000:500,000 with 390,000:60,000,000 = (roughly) 1/15 v 1/180.
Looks like the Cornish are winning over the Jedi!

In any case and as part of your work on the hinterland of ethnic, social and cultural 'self-identification' you might like to examine and report on the virtually complete absence of the fascinating tale of the Celtic Nation & Duchy of Cornwall from the curriculums of UK (including Cornish) educational establishments:
/dna/h2g2/A3712510









A rivetting tale - and with so much contemporary relevance.
Our children have been actively denied their proper sense of place.
Perhaps you'd like to investigate why.

You might like to ask Michael 'Vlad' Gove what he intends to do about it when he sets about designing his 'new curriculum'. Cornish Baccalaureate anyone?

Interestingly, children in French schools learn more about the true story of the Celtic Nation and Duchy Of Cornwall than our Cornish children!

Even if you had a "Cornish tick box", all you would have is the number of people who CLAIM to be Cornish. What is this claim based on? How about a definition of Cornishness. And please, AC, don't tell me that you are Cornish is you feel you are!

How about a definition of Englishness?

I find it amazing that the same people keep asking for a definition of "Cornishness", and no matter how many times they are given one, they continue to ask the same question.

So, you tell us how you define an Englishman, and then I will tell you how to define a Cornishman.

P Trembath's bog standard answer which he has used for years now.

An Englishman is someone born in England, or born outside of England to English parents.

Like Phil Vickery is Cornish, despite being born in England.

You cannot be Cornish by "feel".

Well, an Englishman might just be someone born in England - what do I know. If that is P_Trembath's definition; it's fine by me. I was just asking.......

I think the definition of being British is harder to define for those determined to be Cornish and Cornish only.
Because admitting to being British would include the "Celtic Nations" and we couldn't have that, could we?

Dave the rave wrote:-
"P Trembath's bog standard answer which he has used for years now."

Which just goes to show how often the same question has been asked, and answered.


Dave the rave wrote:-
"An Englishman is someone born in England,..........."

Exactly, and a Cornishman is someone born in Cornwall, simple isn't it. So why continually ask.



Dave the rave wrote:-
"........or born outside of England to English parents."

If, that person wishes to be, otherwise they can choose to be "of" the place where they were born., ditto a Cornishman. They can also choose to have dual nationality.

Slimslad wrote:-
"I think the definition of being British is harder to define for those determined to be Cornish and Cornish only.
Because admitting to being British would include the "Celtic Nations" and we couldn't have that, could we?"

Why would defining British be harder?

The Celtic Nations are British.

Britain is MORE than just England, England is not the sole British nation.

I am Cornish and British, just not English, again, simple isn't it.

Continue to be Cornish and British.
The vast majority of Cornish people completely agree with you.
The vast majority of British people will continue to be British.

You got there in the end, Slimslad.

"The Celtic Nations are British."
Apart, of course, for the Celtic Nations that are French and Spanish.

Slimslad wrote:-
""The Celtic Nations are British."
Apart, of course, for the Celtic Nations that are French and Spanish."

And the point you are trying to make, by stating the obvious, is?

That the Celtic "aspiration" is to create a United Republic of Celts across Europe, to "hark back" to some mythical period, when Celts were one big happy family.

Graham,

Can I ask what you think of having an -English- tick box option on the census?

As for the national identity and ethnic identity questions- what should be the criteria used by citizens? Should it be down to peoples self-identification, i.e people ticking the box they feel most appropriate, or should they have to scan through their family histories and have genetic tests to see which box is best?

Personally I grew up in a family and community that informed me of my Cornish identity even though I have a mother from another EU state. Should I be allowed to self identify as Cornish Graham? If I wanted to identify as English would you think that correct considering I have non-English parent?

Perhaps its not the 'Celtic nationalists' who have such a racialist vision of identity after all.

Slimslad wrote:-
"That the Celtic "aspiration" is to create a United Republic of Celts across Europe, to "hark back" to some mythical period, when Celts were one big happy family."

The "Celtic aspiration" is merely to be recognised, and to have a say in the decisions made that affect them. I think you will find that most "Celtic" political organisations would wish for a Federated Europe that respects and listens to all member nations and national minorities. That includes England.

backofanenvelope wrote:
鈥淓ven if you had a "Cornish tick box", all you would have is the number of people who CLAIM to be Cornish. What is this claim based on?鈥�

A fair and reasonable question I would have thought. Who is qualified to write Cornish on the census form? If someone who was born in Cornwall but has never set there for 50 years is entitled, so what, with or without a tick box what would it tell us?

"Who is qualified to write Cornish on the census form? If someone who was born in Cornwall but has never set there for 50 years is entitled, so what, with or without a tick box what would it tell us?"

Every tick for "Cornish" would be seized on by the Celts as support for their cause, even if those seeing themselves as Cornish did not believe themselves to be Celts.

Slimslad wrote:
"Every tick for "Cornish" would be seized on by the Celts as support for their cause, even if those seeing themselves as Cornish did not believe themselves to be Celts"

That is understandable, it is called "clinging to straws" the nationalists are very good at that, only kidding themselves in the long run.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

There is no "Celtic" aspiration. Just groups of sad acts who need
something to cling to.

We are all mongrels, we all have our different genetic make up. Some
ascribe to various cultural phenomena, as a way of ingratiating
themselves within a group. So "believe" in a nationalism, some "believe
in reconstituted traditions and days, (most of which have little or no
tradition or resemblance to the actual ceremonises of yore.)

Nationalism is like religion. Some choose to believe in the Christian
God. Some choose to be a catholic Christian, some choose to be baptist.
Likewise some choose to be Buddhist, some choose to be pagan.

But basically ALL that it is, a choice to believe in something, it
carries no weight, it grants you no extra privilege, it makes you not a
jot a better person.

So when the nationalists here claim "Cornish this," or "Cornish that" or
"the Cornish need and deserve," or "the Cornish boundary" or "whatever,
all they are doing is the same as the religious do, over stating their
personal belief in to the public arena.

And like the religious, their belief should not be taken as anything
more than that, the CHOICE to believe in an imaginary phenomena.

Even the pseudo-Celts here will tell you that Cornishness exists in the
minds of men, unfortunately for them that's the only place it actually
exists, in imagination.

Graham, the idea that you were "not attempting to infer equivalence between the Cornish and the Jedi" is disingenuous. This is proven by your very next sentence where you quote the number of declarations for each: "34,000 vs 390,000". Relying solely on numbers as a criteria for inclusion, ruling out all other factors, suggests you do indeed see the two responses as equal. I find this bordering on offensive.

One is a joke response to census questions by people who refused to accurately fill out the census, for whatever reason. The other is a strongly held real identity, ethnicity and nationality that is very dear to a great many people's hearts. History has proven time and time again that one way to get people's backs up is to infer that their identity is somehow worthy of ridicule, or that anyone who argues for more equal treatment of their identity by others is also worthy of ridicule. But I assume that you, being an intelligent man, already knew this. Perhaps your blog's visitor stats were starting to wane, and you knew that equivalising the Cornish identity with people writing "Jedi" on the census would draw in some more clicks. Well congratulations it worked.

I know that I am just a name on a screen to you, but behind it I am a real person, and I ask that you, as a 大象传媒 Radio Cornwall journalist, take a bit more time in the future before clicking that "Submit" button to think about the feelings of the majority of your readers, and any potential offense your words may cause to them - they are Cornish after all.

This claim for recognition from the Cornish is not something that has come about over the past few years its been going on for nearly a thousand, I remember my great grandfather telling us "you are Cornish not English and never forget it" and his grandfather told him and so on, but hey what does having a culture, language, history or a sense of belonging mean eh ? By some of the logic on here I suppose Tibetans should just throw in the towel and accept they are Chinese because hey China thinks Tibet belongs to them so therefore it does.

It would be interesting to see English reaction if England was annexed by Poland, Poles flock into the country with more money, better jobs live in the best areas, destroy the language and then deny England ever existed as a nation / people and anyone claiming otherwise is a nationalistic nutter

Rob what are you waiting for?
Get a few more people around you who think the same as you, then get a political party sympathetic to your views, get out on the streets and get the public to vote for this party. No problem, what is the hold up? It鈥檚 a great country we live in, the opportunities are there for everyone even the Cornish if they have the will.

Rob highlights the main problem.
This idea of "Cornish Nationhood" has been around since the Victorians created it. Mebyon Kernow has been around for nearly 60 years. But there is no will nor mass support from the actual people of Cornwall to take this further, therefore they are whistling in the wind.
Mebyon Kernow have a hard core 1-2% of votes in Cornwall, and seem unlikely to ever get more. The "Cornish Fighting fund" failed. The "rally for recognition" never got off the ground. The "Keep Cornwall whole"campaign was hijacked by fringe dwellers. Their Stannary people proved to be as toothless as any other unsupported organisation, a real "People's front of Judea."

There is no will in Cornwall for what the nationalist want, they do not have a positive message for the people, they are over-run by extremists on the fringe, and are self sabotaging. The few respected figures they have, Mr Cole for instance get drowned out by the negativeness of the anti-English, anti-second home, anti-tourist, anti-Duke of Cornwall, factions, who will stomp all over any chance nationalism has, to make their own points the priority..

Long may it continue that way.

A Victorian invention ? Seriously ? I think you should go and actually do some reading, as for the other points raised about the tourist trade and 2nd homes you obviously have no idea of the effect these are having on the local economy ie seasonal minimum wages, lack of housing available, the destruction of local communities, whole villages nigh on deserted through most of the year the list of grievances down here are endless and not all are tied in with the desire to be recognised as a race in the UK. You argument is fatuous and ill informed at best

Rid, I do not deny any of the problems exist in Cornwall.

If you read my message gain, I state that there are single issue obsessives who have latched onto the Cornish nationalist cause in order to push their own agenda. (See AC's constant rerouteing of any subject here to his "second home votes" obsession.)

But there again, you raise another reason why Cornish nationalism fails, the constant inability of its supporters to deal with arguments presented to them , in a logical unemotional manner.

I state "the few respected figures they have, Mr Cole for instance get drowned out by the negativeness of the anti-English, anti-second home, anti-tourist, anti-Duke of Cornwall, factions".

You read that as me denying that the issues exist, rant at me for doing something I have not done, show the nationalists up as unable to read a reasoned argument, and thereby undermine the nationalist cause.

Thanks for proving my points for me.