大象传媒

I will also add that the very unabashed US political class has been making political capital out of the arrests, as this quote from the New York Times attests:

"Officials in both parties said they viewed the arrests as critical in determining how they would approach the fall campaign, with Republicans saying it could be a turning point in a year in which they have been on the defensive over the war in Iraq and other issues."

The muslim gentleman on last nights program is conveniently ignoring the full picture when he explains the reasons for terrorism are because of the 'facts on the ground'.

Although, to his credit, one of the 2 reasons 1 is due to the inability of muslim leaders to address this, or are they ignoring it ? The other reason 'foreign policy' is a convenient scapegoat.

What part of US foreign policy led to the attacks of 9/11 ? The attacks were planned while the US was investing considerable time in a palestinian state. Does the muslim gentleman not know thism, and if not then why not ? or does it choose it ignore it ?

As for muslims who feel obliged to blow themselves up in acts of mass murder in support of their brothers, no one should forget that these are acts of mass murder, plain and simple that have no place and cannot be excused in a modern democracy.

The 'facts on the ground' are that political problems are addressed in a democratic manner in western countries.

The 'facts on the ground' are that that muslim community is not owning up to its responsibility to confront and defect islamofaciasm. And while it continues to do so we all live under these risks, and there should be no tolernace for the kind of excuse the gentleman tried to provide last night.

People are waking up to the way that government manipulates situations to suit their stated and unstated aims and objectives.

We no longer live in the 18th century. We live in an age whereby we are able to have access to multiple sources of news. We are able within a short time to evaluate and come to our own conclusions on events.

The stranglehond over our minds is being lost. The PR assault in the mainstream is losing favour with large sways of people as they can see the control that is limiting what and how something gets reported.

The military industrial complex is going about increasing its business in all ways possible. More and more people are becoming aware of just what their method of increasing business entails for humanity.

All the signs are there for people to see, just what is going on in the world. Plenty of websites exist that give a different perspective on global events and the new world order that is the publicly stated intention of many people including Bush Snr.

I have just watched V for Vendetta. Apart from being an excellent British film, I was struck by just how prophetic it appears in the light of present events. The government is entirely responsible for our cynicism over all its pronouncements. It seems to regard truth as subservient to appearances and saving its own face. I hope this time they have got the facts right and can produce genuine material evidence or their credibility will just fall further as they play into the hands of these extremists, with each false claim.

Hey I dont know all the facts, but from what I can tell, the government cant get anything right, now im not labours no 1 fan myself but c'mon people. The inteligence services and the Police discovered a plot to murder hundreds of inocent people and acted upon it. Ok there have been instances of mistaken arrest etc in the past, but had the police sat back and not arrested these men and then they had proceeded to blow up planes everyone would be up in arms about why didnt the government/intelligence stop this from happening.

Ok, we dont always get the truth, but all the cynicism surrounding the recent events makes me laugh. Now I dont think that the government doesnt blow things out of preportion, to make itself look better but I dont care. Lifes have been saved, thats what i care about.

I am very tired of hearing conspiracy theories, whether they relate to the 'evil masterminds from US military industrial complex'genre or 'Government as source of manipulative disinformation' genre. But I am even more tired of seeing Muslim immigrants, in a country that has given safe harbour and economic benefits to them and their families, shamelessly implying that until the 'facts on the ground' change - ie until a democratically elected government changes its foreign policy to suit the wishes of an immigrant minority - then we should expect that immigrant community to attempt to murder citizens of the host country whose benefits they are happy to accept. If a Christian immigrant community in Pakistan - if such infidel immigration were ever to be tolerated by a Muslim country - was implicated in terrorist offences against the civilian Pakistani population, and if so-called community leaders from that population then sought to justify those actions due to 'facts on the ground', I wonder what the Pakistani response would be?

The cynicism is understandable when you consider that this Government spun itself in and continues to do so - what are you supposed to believe ? The media seems to have it's own agenda half the time - the 大象传媒 were bitten by the Hutton report and still seem to be licking their wounds. However, going off topic a bit, I think the point is missed, when religion is used as a label - these aren't Muslims primarily, first and foremost, they are criminals, let us not forget that, and that label can be applied to all creeds and colours - stop boxing and labelling, it does nobody any good.

I wonder if the interviewee from MPAC was selected by Newsnight producers, to fulfil the role of a 'moderate' , respectable Muslim spokesperson. If this is the case then we should all be concerned that a moderate Muslim when given the opportunity to comment, actively chose not to issue an outright condemnation of terror. (A stance echoed by many other Muslim religious and lay leaders).

On the other hand, if as I suspect, MPAC is an organisation which tries to divert young Muslims away from terror because they think this is politically expedient, rather than due to a moral abhorrence of terrorism, is it not Newsnight's responsibility to take them to task?

Terrorism is never justified regardless of the "facts on the ground". Besides the so called "facts on the ground" are no more than a vicious and blinkered view of world events, propogated by irresponsible Muslim leaders. Remember that many of these leaders also claim that the US were behind the 9/11 attacks - not many seriously minded people would give this propesterous view the time of day.

Can you really expect people to take everything at face value?

Yes. there is now huge mistrust being expressed by "ordinary citizens" not just in the government but also in the media including so-called reliable sources such as the state broadcaster, the 大象传媒.

Fortunately there are enough people around who question the "plots" so that the outright lies are exposed.

It's a pity that the majority of journalists don't dig deeper. Is it because they have to toe the line to the editorial policy dictated by the media owner?

Who owns the media? Just a handful of companies worldwide. And do these companies contribute vastly to the political parties? Yes.

Back to the current plot...

(i) if liquids have to be surrended at the security points, why are passengers allowed to dump them in the big bins in the middle of the crowds? Isn't that just a great way to detonate the so-called bomb?

(ii) The explosive liquids could easily be smuggled onboard in small bags in underclothing (in condoms?) and then detonated using the power supply in the toilets.

Please - get serious.

Government motives? Easily justifiable way to pass bills to limit freedom, capitalise on the resources in the middle east to name a couple. Has the world changed since 9/11? Yes, the government is getting its way at the expense of ordinary citizens, not to mention the thousands of innocent people slaughtered in the ware on terror.

From the Newsnight e-mail 'In tonight's Programme', the header was
"Put simply, this was intended to be mass murder on an unimaginable scale."
Paul Stephenson, Deputy Commissioner, Metropolitan Police.

Are the numerous deaths of innocents in Iraq & Lebanon on a more imaginable scale?

The doublethink needs to be examined more closely.

ID card anyone?

If people can taste baby milk in front of security guards, why can't water be taste-tested the same way?

Why are books being banned?

Why are spectacle cases deemd to be dangerous?

This government plays at security.

Years ago, when I was in charge of a government office, I was told one morning we were on "Red Alert", because of the anniversary of some atrocity or other.

This meant all visitors to the office, into thousands, had to be searched, according to the directive.

When I pointed out that I had no spare staff to do this and asked what we were to do if we found explosives during the search, no-one knew.

Ten minutes later the "Alert" was reduced to Black.

Unfortunately there are many crazy and unhinged people out there, many more than I had realised. To discover there are some who believe that 9/11 and 7/7 were the work of the security services is mind-boggling. My own view is that the bogeyman did it.

Paul wrote, "Now if the government has lost trust to the extent that perfectly rational people adopt a 'doubt everything' approach to official pronouncements on the terror threat, that in itself is a material factor in the equation and not just 'public opinion'."

My response: Given enough time, most 'perfectly rational people' can end up believing in almost any idea one wishs to plant into their heads. The excellent book "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer explains this sad phenomenon.

And yes, I'm American.

Don't these conspiracy theorists realise that there isn't a single UK civil servant (outside of SIS) that is half-way competent enough to run even a basic conspiracy? Every time you think government "conspiracy" just stop and think government "incompetence" instead - you will be right every time.

...and another thing. If I hear another muslim spokesman saying all we have to do to make the islamic extremists happy is change foreign policy I'm going to SCREAM. Why do Newsnight presenters let them get away with this sort of massively undemocratic comment without pulling them up? Im sure if someone from the BNP said that all the government needed to do to stop racism was to throw out all the foreigners, Mr Paxman would be at their throats in an instant.

I put a lot of the doubts about the reality of the threat being put down to 'political correctness'. Get politicians and commentators in private and they will say things that are far more definitive about muslim society than are appearing in the media. All genuine debate has been driven underground - the disinfective sunshine of plain debate is missing from all our media today for fear amongst our policital figures and commentators of being labelled a racist or worse. If you have a small company would you genuinely consider a muslim person for a job or would you find some plausible lawful to reject their application from the job applications? Similarly with debate on the disaffection of muslim youth we will only start dealing with the problems when muslim homes start being fire bombed by misguided patriots. We must have a proper open debate.

I do not doubt that there was the possibility of a serious attack and I'm willing to believe that this attack has been uncovered and foiled by the security services. However, it's a sad fact that this will be exploited by the Republicans in the US in their pre-election campaing - and yes, the timing could not have been more convenient. Yesterday on the Today Programme the head of the homeland security committee of teh US congress (? a republican?) was interviewed. He came up with the usual nauseating dribble about how this was a stark reminder of the necessity of the war on terror and how wonderful that the British people were fully supporting this effort. Why was he not reminded by the interviewer that the war on terror might well have been a contributing factor for these attacks and that the British government's policy of full support for US policy is not representative of British public opinion?

THE right-wing Islamist foreign policy agenda is not an agenda for justice and equality in world affairs; it is - simply - the Islamist agenda.

The Iraq war was wrong because it was wrong. I believe that the real motivations for it were seamy and self-interested, but the American-British war effort was not fuelled by hatred of Muslims.

Justice requires a withdrawl from Iraq but not the restitution of Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Justice demands a viable and independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. It doesn't demand the elimination of the State of Israel and eradication of its people.

Justice requiures that the world intervene and stop the horrors commited by muslim militias in Darfur, where hundreds of thousands have been murdered and raped.

Justice is opposition to anti-semitic and homphobic bigotry, alongside the fight against Islamophobia

The politics of Islamism seek to advantage the right-wing muslim cause.
Association with justice and equality in human affairs is occasional and coincidental.

The sceptism over yesterdays news follows recent mass sceptism over 9/11. What happened in America on september 11th 2001 has been used to validate the War on Terror, and is therefore directly linked to every extremist terror alert since. Right now anyone with access to the internet has access to overwhelming evidence to question the official 9/11 commission report. If 9/11 wasn't exactly what we have been led to believe, then we have a problem beyond many of our worse nightmares. I am a moderate person, without religion, who doesn't belive in alien abduction. I'm an open minded person without prejudice and I saw the planes hit the twin towers like everybody else, and immediately believed it to be terrorism. However there is no evidence to prove a plane hit the pentagon and even less to explain why world trade center 7 was also destroyed. These facts need to be addressed to assure me and people like me, that all terrorism which has happen since 9/11 isn't also an elaborate hoaxe.

The people to listen to in such situations are, like the person who wrote comment number 22, the ones who use basic principles of justice in a consistent manner.

For instance, they are the ones who can condemn the murder of 52 people on 7/7 but also condemn the irresponsible attack on Iraq by the US and UK; or they can condemn the slaughter of Lebanese people by Israel whilst also condemning the anti-semitic hatred of Hizbollah and their like.

They are the ones who don't keep falling into the trap of simple, opposite reactions to a viewpoint they dislike only to find themselves alongside those who justify the continual slaughter of innocents.

I am afraid that this means we simply have to treat a lot of what is said by the Government, by many of the so-called representatives of the so-called Muslim community and by certain media commentators with a healthy degree of scepticism.

But let us not blind ourselves to the fact that the Government and the Police are faced with a genuine and unprecedented problem of security for British citizens. In this case I think they may well have got it right.

so the reality on the ground doesnt matter? you know ppl fail to understand a reaction always has an opposite reaction thts just not with object you can place this theory in conflicts around the world. If no one addresses these reasons no one can stop these misguided youths from going to the far extreme of getting their point accross. As for ppl asking why is it tht these ppl wanted to do something so violent against their own country i'll those ppl just one question how were these ppl reported out in the media or by other not as brits even though they have been living in england for generations but as pakistani's and etc etc.

Every society is like a little den that you can represented by a capital "C" with an opening at the right. At the top are the theorists, at the bottom the practical utilitarians. The right wing cluster round the opening and look outside for opportunity or threat to drag resources in or protect the den. The left wing live in the back of the den, unaware of the outside world, more concerned with the fair sharing out of the resources already inside the den.
It hasn't changed since we were cavepeople and later our ancestors built Stonehenge to celebrate it.
The gender divide cuts the circle diagonally, top left (NW) to bottom right (SE). It also gives us our calendar - the divide starts at Haloween in the NW and ends in Mayday in the SE. It puts Christmas at the N and Easter at the E.
It also gives us our political compass - fascist NE, conservative SE, socialist SW and communist in the lower NW. Fundamentalists occupy the upper NW.
Those on the right (male) look out of the den and don't give a monkey's about the left inside the den. Those on the left (female) are consumed with den affairs without any idea how the den's resources are obtained. Those at the N (male) have power and govern, while those at the S (female) couldn't care less about the N. The people of the left (female, caring, sharing, subjective) hate those on the right (male, competitive, objective).
The same diagram gives us our great endeavours - Science NE, technology SE, the Arts SW and the humanities NW.
The right uses science (NE) and technology (SE) to fight its battles outside the den away from civilians if possible. The left prefers to fight inside, using hearts and minds (arts SE and humanities NW) among the people.
What has this all got to do with these blogs? It perfectly describes the differing points of view and explains why there are more left siders among the nattering blogs - ignored by the right. Left siders won't see danger until the den is over-run because they are domesticated. They hate maleness and authority and so distrust the government (N), science (NE), competition (E)and the military (E).
Nothing changes - the wheel simply turns through time.

Andrew - 23

Are you sure you don't believe in alien abduction? No evidence that plane hit the pentagon? Uh? All an elaborate hoax - double-Uh?? You sound like you are right in there with the Roswell floks to me.

The "facts on the ground" comment has hit a nerve here by the looks of things and I'm not surprised. It is frankly sickening to hear this sadly now common attempt by some Muslims to explain/excuse/justify. This view needs to be challenged with more vigour, Newsnight. I like many am not a supporter of the war in Iraq as I beleive it was launched for the wrong reasons - oil, establish a western military presence, revenge for 9/11 - take your pick. It was wrong and misguided but it is part of the foreign policy of a democratically elected government and they do make mistakes. This may be hard for some Muslims to swallow as their governments are well known worldwide for not making mistakes andfor their fairness and balanced approach...The way to change things is through politics, especially if you are a citizen here. Not by targeting innocent people anywhere. I caught an interview by Jon Snow from C4 last night (sorry 大象传媒) with a Muslim lad holding extreme views. The lad tried to justify targeting of innocents by saying the Koran allows the attacking of criminals (a good example of the abuse that the Koran is suffering at the hands of these devout, ernest young men...). When Mr Snow pressed him on this blatant manipulation in relation to 9/11, the lad seemed to be trying to intimate that the inhabitants of the twin towers were in some way criminals and therefore legitimate targets as per the Koran. This is what we are all - including decent Muslims - up against.
The conspiracy theorists and assorted crack pots are even more sad than the Muslim appologists. It's like witnessing a weird manifestation of "stockholm syndrome" where those under threat in a hostage situation start to side with the terrorists out of fear and a hope they will be spared. Forget it. Plenty of liberally minded naive people with a fondness for conspiracy theories have been wiped out by terorists, since bombs aren't noticeably picky. Also, the nerds who suddenly seem to know more about high level security issues and ordnance/explosives than Andy McNab are also frankly hilarious. They deserve more contempt than most of the arm waving brigade. A bog standard Infantryman would give you chapter and verse on the devious ways to disguise booby traps and other IED's. We need protection and the measures brought in are not arrived at by accident.
Check out the views of the extreme element of Islam - they hate infidels - that's unfortunately most of us including those who seek to blame our own society for upsetting Muslims to the extent that they want to kill us all. It's straight out of the dark ages. Some want Britain under sharia law, the return of Spain as part of a new Muslim empire etc. It's almost unbelievable, but it's true. Wanting to change our foreign policy and our troops out of Iraq etc are some of the more sane aspirations. I feel very sorry for decent Muslim people as they must be very worried and demoralised at what is being justified through the Koran, whatever there view of the world. The entry Lucien Desgai wrote earlier on this site is spot on.

Why are we still on full security alert and refusing hand baggage? It is inconsistent with the assurances that all key suspects are in custody. And why are regional airports that have no flights to the USA caught up in the melodrama?

The denial of carry-on simply cannot last. Plane holds can't be big enough. I can see we're going to have a long-term issue with liquids and the problem will be water.

Look at the way in America has for the last couple of years made everyone take off their shoes at security and you can believe that the liquid ban may last. It hardly bears thinking about.

I can't see businessmen at the sharp end being willing to tolerate being denied their lap-tops for long either.

Towcestrian - 27

You are obviously very well read and privy to information on 9/11 that escapes hundreds of thousands of others. Either that or you are a narrow minded twit. By the way, do you have a point? Do your homework.

In response to T Lopakhin:

"I think you'll find that the reason is that the liquids aren't intended to create an enormous explosion which would take a lot of lives in a crowd. Rather, the point is that in a plane, only a small explosion, sufficient to puncture the body of the plane, is required to commit mass murder."

That's ok then - the security services obviously must have thought this through and found the risk of a small explosion in the bins was acceptable? Nothing to worry about then.

It's actually official that Bush and Blair discussed painting a spy plane in UN colours to lure Saddam into war? These guys are sly.

Just watch how things pan out in the coming weeks/months...
- new legislation to further limit citizens' freedom
- ID cards
- linkage to Al Qaeda
- linkage from Al Qaeda to Hezbollah
- linkage to Syria and Iran
- attack/invade Syria and Iran
- secure resources
- Western arms companies make a mint in supplying all the weapons.
- Western construction comapnies make a mint rebuilding the place.

You want more motives?

I feel for the muslim population now we are being subliminally brain washed that muslims are suspicious. Do you remember England in the 1970's with the IRA bombing campaigns and all the finger pointing at anyone with an Irish accent must be a terrorist?

The chaos at the aiports was totally unnecessary and seems to have been allowed to happen to give greater impact to the terror crisis. Surely as soon as the first alert was sent out by the security forces at 3.30am the airports could have been closed. Heathrow could easily have been closed and all passengers directed away. It would have been very simple to broadcast the information and alert the public. The M4 spur and other access roads could have also been easily closed.
Instead tens of thousands of passengers were allowed to crowd into buildings which might also house potential terrorists. Most were then told their flights were cancelled. This was a big publicity stunt to try to remove the Israel - Lebanaon conflict from the front pages.

Thanks to Newsnight for responding responsibly to this forum. For me the issue was, as the first post so concisely covered, the Media swallowing - hook,line and sinker - the official line. This world can only be saved by good people questioning, speaking out and working for justice - not just reading the autocue. Thanks again Newsnight.

I suspect that most comments on this site are made by people who do believe that the recent events are a cynical plot: they feel strongly so they bother.

I am happy to believe that the security services have stopped an act of terrorism. Perhaps Newsnight,which this evening has been almost shockingly sympathetic to Muslim extremists, might explore reactions from non-Muslim British people to whether being muslim is compatable with living in the United Kingdom. I for one have my doubts.

It irritates me that many politicians, reporters and guest speakers seem unable to differentiate between motivation and justification. Whenever the conversation moves towards what possible reasons terrorists might have for attempting these attacks, many seem quick to point out how nothing justifies terrorist action. Whilst this is very true, we need to recognise that our foreign policy and actions abroad are a major influence and motivation (not a justification) for terrorist action from extremists.

It is childish to be so cynical about the current securtiy alert. The police are only human and of course they sometimes make terrible, even unforgivable mistakes.. but remember more than 50 people were murdered in London last summer.

Redirect your indignation towards something much more important... the British and American position on Lebanon, and indeed the whole of the middle east, which is completely immoral. Whilst we assist in the arming of Israel, the murders in Lebanon are in our name, and THIS is why we are being targetted by terrorists.

How many of those arrested will be released without charge?
Also, if it takes 250 policemen/women to arrest 2 suspects, how many were involved yesturday?
I suspect there must have been a VERY thin blue line doing "other tasks" at the time!

It's just all rather convenient isn't it. The supine Labour party at last beginning to hold Tony Blair to account over his fawning support for the Bush regime and suddenly we have a huge terror plot to silence the growing calls for Blair to go. And go now. The cynicism grows almost daily amongst UK citizens to the architects of the Iraq disaster and their use of this fiasco to ratchet up authoritarian and anti-libertarian laws. No wonder identity cards are being introduced. How can this government hope to keep tabs on us all with one of the largest surveillance networks in the World only providing a photographic and video record rather than a whole raft of other spying devices necessary to keep us all under 鈥榩roper鈥� control?

Well fone Newsnight for spotting this - although I am a little tempted to consider this an 'intellgence trap' to get those cynics and stop them from infecting the rest of the media... I was a little shocked to see Andrew Gilligan put forward as a sincere and reliable source tonight - Damn it, why wasn't Paxman on tonight? Anyway did anyone else notice that Israel bombed Beruit today? Is this not important? Is this not the biggest escalation of the actual, real, war today? I am clearly not alone in seeing this as a big non-coincidence... I also noticed pictures of Prescot, as if pictured on the toilet, commenting on the subject, as if that would help? What a mess... Incomptetnt management, trying to fix its reputation, whilst the management are away - it's the 'silly season' don't you know -and having to resort to really heavy stuff instead of a big pair of white gloves... let's see
a) Where Israel's border are in two month's time
b) Where Prescot's d'alliances are in the public mind
c) How keen people are for ID cards
d) How much it costs to hire a laptop on BA business class
e) How much a bloody bottle of water costs on RyanAir - AND how much it costs to put your laptop in the hold!!!

Politicians in this country have to start governing responsibly. They need to stop the continual 'spinning' and using the system to their advantage. They need to start admitting when they are wrong, apologising when caught out and resigning when necessary.

I believe people in the UK are losing all respect for decisions made by our leaders and are becoming increasingly frustrated by the fact that policitians don't play by the rules - and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

It's almost sounds ridiculous to say it but it should be fundamentally recognised that politicians are there to serve the people - NOT the other way round. If there is a feeling in this country that going to war in Iraq is wrong, or ID cards are wrong, or C.C.T.V. everywhere is wrong then the feelings of the people should win through. This is our land. These are our lives - we should not have to live them in fear because of our spineless representatives and their crooked system.

I waited many years for Labour to get into power because I really wanted to see what difference they could make and it is so sad to find out that it seems all politicians are essentially the same.

We are led by fools who waste our lives. It doesn't need to be this way though.

It was most revealing that Newsnight was unable to give an accurate report on the content of its own weblog. Tonight's program gave the impression that all contributors were very sceptical about the very existence of a terrorist threat and even managed to cite "Norman" who thought the real terrorists are the Israelis. Frankly, it seems more reasonable to be suspicious of the 大象传媒 and its motives than the existence of terrorists in our midst. How shocking that at a time like this our national broadcaster could ever adopt the slightest resemblence to Lord Haw Haw !

Why can't the 大象传媒 have an open - 'no holds barred' discussion/debate about terrorism and the state of the world we live in because of the so-called War on Terror?

By that I don't just mean bringing on the usual pundits who spin the usual lines. An audience of normal people (across the board) and contributors from all different opinions.

I don't believe we are told the truth about these things. It might be because of benign concern to protect us from worrying too much about these things - it might be for far more devious reasons ... but I don't know. The problem is I no longer trust the words from my own government (and I should do) and I certainly have never believed a single word the Bush administration has ever uttered about anything. Their track record betrays them. They don't care about people - just big oil and weapons based profits from imperial adventuring around the world. All this from an adminstration which stole its first electoral 'victory' and manipulated the second. More voted for Gore and then Kerry in each case.

If we can't trust our own governments in the West (and sadly I don't think we can) then who can we trust?

I agree with several commenters on 9/11 because that has never been properly explained or justified to us. I don't believe the US govt version of events because they have lied about everything else - and Blair (Bliar) is far too close to them. It worries me enormously.

The key point mentioned in the debate with two prominent Muslims, and addressed to Douglas Alexander, is a no-brainer. You don't have to condone what alleged terrorists are plotting, to understand why it is happening. Of course Britain's participation in the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions and occupations, and its backing for American policy on the Palestinian issue (+ including supplying military hardware to Israel) makes it a target. Of course some people in our country are so angry about what is done in their name that they feel peaceful protest is not enough. And of course those who are likely to feel most aggrieved by Britain's policy will be predominantly, but not exclusively, Muslim. It's equally obvious that it will only ever be a minority that turns to violence. But if the Government really wants its citizens to be safe from terrorist attacks, it will have to abandon its traditional foreign policy towards the Middle East. Can't quite see it happening somehow...

If the terrorists are reacting to foreign policy, why do they not pick some political targets? However, rather than attacking politicians or military installtions they revel in killing civilians. I conclude that they are not politically motivated, but are driven by hatered of non muslims.

Exactly how much liquid explosive do you need to puncture a hole in a modern passenger airliner? Professor Michael McGlinchey, Head of Chemistry at University College Dublin, told RTE 'sizeable quantities' would be required. He also thought it 'unlikely' that the 'acrid smelling' components would evade detection. A spokesman for Dublin airport on tonights 'news at nine' also on RTE, said that changes to security proceedures only affected passengers on US flights. Passengers for other destinations were subject to the same checks as they where two days ago. Coincidence?

I wonder what will happen if after 28 days all those detained on Thursday are released without charge,the government will have some very serious questions to answer & who will ever believe anything they tell us in the future? On a related topic, when will Tony Blair realise that until there is justice for the Palastinians & the indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon ceases, then more young British muslims will become radicalised & this country will become a target for revenge by other radical muslim groups.What's the point of a foreign secretary when America is running our foreign policy?

It's hardly surprising that people are skeptical just about everything, never mind a major terrorist plot, considering past record of the governments most intimately involved in this one. Whatever happened to anthrax, you remember anthrax, don't you? It killed five people after all. The hardest evidence linking O. Bin Laden to 9/11 we've seen so far, is the Kandahar wedding video, you remember the Kandahar wedding, don't you? And FBI did say they don't anymore consider him, OBL, the prime suspect. Does "45 minutes!!!" rings any bells? I think it's perfectly reasonable not to take anything the government says at face value. It is just as reasonable to critically examine the information coming from officials, and to do a little reality check on bits and pieces, scenarios, expert's guesswork and the rest of it, as it comes out. Why is an expression of doubt so quickly labeled "conspiracy theory", and what exactly does it mean, "a conspiracy theory"? Isn't the "disrupted terrorist plot" the government describes just another conspiracy theory, until the opposite can be proven beyond reasonable doubt..?

Indeed, I'm somewhat skeptical about this latest immanent threat myself. The basic storyline of the plot, 3 strikes, 3 planes each time, strikes separated by a couple of days intervals (3 days?) - these people do have a soft spot for triads, don't they - that sounds a bit fancy to me, to think that one could possibly re-run the same operation a few days after 3 planes are blown up over Atlantic... tanks were allover Heathrow for far less than that. These plotters, whoever they are, appear to be somewhat delusional, out of touch with reality.

Pakistan's role in this operation is most interesting, and it's being more and more promoted as the story unfolds. I have a funny feeling that the role Pakistan will play in the end, is one of a scapegoat, ie their initial intelligence may turn out to had been flown, and hence the whole plot falls apart. Considering the way things are developing in the Middle East, and in a socalled war on terror in general, it would be convenient for Bush to loosen up a bit his ties with Pakistan which is becoming an uneasy friend and allay, mainly due to Musharraf's inability to control the Pakistani streets, and - very importantly - the US strategic choice of India as a principle partner in the region.

Of course, it is entirely possible that this turns out to be a genuine terrorist plot thwarted, in which case all due credit and respect would be to the services involved. We may never know... national security, sensitive stuff, can't be disscused in public even if we got it right.

In the meantime, keep asking questions and expressing your doubts, so that the news editors know what is it about this war on terror that we find so unnerving.

Mike (49)
Are you saying that after all that has happened over the last 3-4 years you still beleive the government??
How many examples do you require?
I still can't beleive that President Blair was voted back in after the Iraq war debacle!

Sorry about the repeat posts, my browser kept raising Debug errors and I assumed it had failed, Sorry...

Andrew - 30

You will be pleased to know I am not a twit; I have friends who work in the Pentagon and am as convinced that the place was hit by an aeroplane as I am that the Earth is round. Unlike you it seems, I get information from more places than the Internet.

Also unlike you, I am past the homework stage in life.

If the terrorists are reacting to foreign policy, why do they not pick some political targets? However, rather than attacking politicians or military installtions they revel in killing civilians. I conclude that they are not politically motivated, but are driven by hatered of those they try to kill - in this instance UK and US citizens.

If the terrorists are reacting to foreign policy, why do they not pick some political targets? However, rather than attacking politicians or military installtions they revel in killing civilians. I conclude that they are not politically motivated, but are driven by hatered of those they try to kill - non muslims.

like many other members of society. I too felt cynical and sceptic in view of the trail of errors in the past about the so called intelligence gathering. How convenient for Mr Reid to suddenly tell us that yet again we are facing imminent danger.a complete 380degree turn from the real danger, genocide and murder faced and ACTUALLY suffered by the Lebanese not to mention the inhabitants of Gaza who are being flatened everyday.
there is no UN, no Security Council and certainly no justice. what we have are two power hungry and mad people playing with the lives of millions.it scares me.

#55 Andrew

I agree with you on this. The drive is hatred engendered by a supremacist ideology. About 20 Muslims were arrested in Canada a few weeks back. One of them had posted an email stating his desire to behead the prime minister. Another had repeatedly voiced his hatred for Canada and all things Canadian. Islam calls for the conversion or submission of the infidel. No need to look for political motivations, religious motivations are sufficient in this case. Newsnight likes to get a sensible Muslim and a psycho-Muslim on the show to present the 鈥榬ange of views鈥�. The psycho always condemns the violence with the big BUT鈥�(鈥渂ut the foreign policy is driving young Muslims to blah blah鈥�).

Having watched Newsnight tonight, I am extremely disturbed by the method of questioning that is consistently deployed. Why does every presenter on this programme think that you are going to get anything approaching an insight into the mindset of a particular segment of society by adopting a pugnacious persona? Whatever has happened to subtlety in interviewing technique, that might allow masks to slip, to reveal the true nature of the interviewees, rather than the homogenized party line that is increasingly the norm?

Regarding the current security "crisis", I remain healthily sceptical - how convenient for Blair to refocus on homegrown terrorism rather than his allies abroad. Whether or not the alleged Muslim suspects have been arrested rightly, he and his rancid government are again being portrayed by the media abroad as heroic, rather than the undemocratic warmongerers that they really are. Yes, the danger lurks inside this country - mostly it is the climate of fear that this government has provoked time after time, by the propagation of fear of the other. This is, and will lead to even more of a sense of disenfranchisement by those individuals and communities who are not part of the establishment in this country. If Blair had any guts whatsoever, he would disentangle himself from the unprofitable (for Britain, in any case) alliance he has made with the US, and concentrate on why sections of British society feel so desperately that their voices are not being heard that they feel compelled to blow themselves and others up. Arresting people, detaining them, locking them up will not answer this. Dialogue will.

#56 Sue

To assert that it is 鈥渃onvenient鈥� for Mr Reid is to suggest that this whole terror alert is a complete fabrication. This is certainly possible but it assumes that these people are evil geniuses controlled by their Jewish masters. Do you really think that? Be careful talking about genocide. The Jews know about genocide and Israel does not have a primary directive to destroy Lebanon, Iran or anyone else for that matter. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and others all have the stated goal of destroying Israel. Take them at their word, they really mean it. So why turn this on it鈥檚 head, I wonder?

The muslim population of the UK, which is by no means integrated and unlikely ever to be so despite the best efforts of all concerned, is deeply unhappy with British foreign policy and the way it is being implemented in that part of the world which most of the muslim population identify closely with.
If my bitch has a litter in the cowshed, does that make the pups calves? No it doesn't. Why anyone thinks that foreign people coming to UK will integrate is about as daft as expecting Brits who go to live in foreign countries integating there. They don't. People don't. Everyone takes most of their own culture with them and they take steps to preserve it wherever they go and/or live, usually by grouping themslves at a business and social level. It's even the case within the UK amongst the indigenous population who have moved from where they were brought up.
Forced deportation of all muslims is not going to happen, so what are we left with? As long as the UK indulges in the implementation of foreign policies that do not meet with the approval of this dangerous and significant group within the UK, who are prepared to blow themslves up in support of their views and opinions, we have what amounts to a low level civil war going on. It is being conducted essentially by geurillas against whom conventional military force has shown itself time and time again to be useless. Somebody is going to have to give this some serious thought because none of the conventional methods of dealing with this sort of thing are going to make the slightest impression. Personally I think that we should stop pretending to be a mini USA and get out of every conflict we are in. We should let other countries develop in their own way in accordance with the ways they want to do it. It's not our place or our business to interfere with other countries as long as they don't impact on us. If they do, then we react as any other sovereign state would and defend our culture and way of life. If there are people who don't want to be part of that, then the state is entitled to withdraw its protection of them at every level.

In the event that my scepticism over the truth of any of the reports of the last two days, are misplaced, I think there are some far more serious questions to be asked. Why was it only after the point of the arrests of the suspects that the security was stepped up in the airports? why the vigorous searches, cancelled and delayed flights and hand luggage restrictions only afterwards? it's been openly admitted that MI5 had intelligence about the intended use of liquid explosives by terrorists on aeroplanes for several months. Do they really have that much confidence in their intelligence to assume that the terrorist sects they know about are the only ones who are willing or capable of getting a drinks bottle of chemicals onto a plane? If not, why weren't the restrictions that have been imposed on passengers for the last few days been in place since this intelligence was recieved? if our government and secuirity services have apparently entirely failed to put any security measures necessariy to combat such a threat, for five or six months of having aquired the information. This all seems to me to be purely a matter of distaction, a badly realised attempt to generate a climate of fear and inspire some confidence in british intelligence and the need for a war on terror.

#58 Grainne

You are wrong about the USA, we have much to learn. As far as I can see the Muslim population in the USA is very well assimilated and they suffer none of the disenfranchisement found in the UK population. If you want to see disenfranchisement go to Paris. Muslim voices are being heard well enough. What you mean is that we aren鈥檛 addressing their grievances. But whose grievances are you talking about? Poor young people of every stripe have grievances in this country but they are not all burning thousands of cars in their neighbourhoods or blowing themselves up on buses. This kind of behaviour is driven by ideology.

Like many of those who have already commented, I find the information available to be incomplete and quite inconclusive. In today's Age of Fear, our willingness as a society to jump to the most extreme and horrific conclusions has become the norm. This trend serves the purposes of all those who would be dividers and not unifiers of society.

#60 Tom

You ask 鈥淲hy was it only after the point of the arrests of the suspects that the security was stepped up in the airports? why the vigorous searches,鈥︹�� If the security had been stepped up before the arrests then the suspects would have realized they had been tumbled and fled or destroyed evidence. The police need to let the suspects plot for long enough to gather evidence that will stick, but not so long as to allow the plot to succeed. The vigorous searches were required because some of the plotter may have escaped detection and made a last ditch attempt to do the deed and claim their 72 virgins. This is the procedure that would be adopted if the plot were real, or a cynical diversion, as so many Newsnight folks seem to think.

While I abhor what the Israeli government is doing in Southern Lebanon, and cannot understand why nobody considers bringing a case against the Israeli prime minister for admitted war crimes (鈥榃e have displaced Hezbolla鈥檚 power base鈥� 鈥搑ead 鈥榦ur intentional aim to massacre a few civilians to terrorise the rest away has been successful鈥�), to those who use this as 鈥榝acts on the ground鈥� to somehow justify mass murder of innocent lives, this time in the UK, I would like to point out a couple of such facts on the ground, worth remembering to temper one鈥檚 anger, and to achieve a more humble view of one鈥檚, or one鈥檚 community鈥檚, place in the world:

- Fact one: in Pakistan. Christians there (an underclass called 鈥榮weepers鈥�) have traditionally lived in ghettos, their misery hidden (literally, by street fences, at least where I have personally seen in Islamabad) from the better off. That was traditionally. When I became engaged to my wife, then working for a government donor agency in Pakistan, we made a substantial donation towards a school being built on such donations by foreigners, associated to a church with a diplomatic-related population, and destined for the children of sweepers. Within a couple of years, the government had confiscated the school, to use it for 鈥榯he general population鈥�, the children of local military officers and government employees. This was all some time ago. More and more Christians have become in recent times targets of violence against 鈥榯he non-believers鈥�, with a number of churches burnt or desecrated. 鈥楥onverts鈥� have been known to pay the ultimate price, with their own life.

- Fact two, in Sudan. Our own parish church here in Britain supports a partner one in Sudan, from which it receives regular communication. In Darfur in recent times, and for long in the South, atrocities against Christians, carried out by militias supported by the Northern, Islamic, Arab-based government, or directly by government airplanes, have taken place on a truly staggering scale. The government鈥檚 agenda was apparently to eliminate opposition to a Sudan-wide installation of Sharia law. To this end, for years now, mass murder has been the tool. This includes, in areas in which the population is dispersed, taking advantage of gathering opportunities: bombing churches during Sunday services is apparently a very efficient strategy, in terms of yield of casualties brought about by the sortie. Injured Western missionaries (still hugely brave) can be rushed back to Europe. The locals cannot, unfortunately. This has gone on for many years, the victims of direct action and indirect displacement and famines being known to all of us, through the more recent news, to probably amount to 2 million. That is 2 million. This is genocide on WWII scale, only recently making it into the news, and presented in a way that, while the plea of the victims is shown, its causes are presented so as to not upset a particular minority at a sensitive time.

A majority of the West, at least on this side of the Atlantic, and whether Christian or otherwise, feels for the Palestinians, and for all other oppressed peoples, (without wishing for Israelis to not exist). For anyone, benefiting from their tolerant surroundings, to erect themselves as judges and executioners of the West, on the basis of the political decisions of a few, and turning away from atrocities of the not-so-few, because they are on the inconvenient side, can only be described as blind evil.

A little perspective:

Since 11/09/01 my friends, family and I have been statistically tens if not hundreds of times more likely to be killed or horrifically injured in a road traffic accident than in a terrorist attack. Now I admit I worry a little when I get on my motorcycle, so rationally if over 3,000 people in the UK die this year as a result of terrorism then I might start worrying a 鈥渓ittle鈥� about that too. But until then, I鈥檒l worry more about diesel on the road.

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." (H.L. Mencken, 1923)

#63 Davis
The information is 鈥渋ncomplete and quite inconclusive鈥� because the investigation has just started. Who is living in an 鈥淎ge of Fear鈥�? I鈥檓 not afraid, are you? All those people in Heathrow and Gatwick yesterday didn鈥檛 appear afraid to me. They were bored, resigned, perhaps upset, but not afraid. Personally I would prefer that this whole thing did turn out to be overblown since that would mean that we really don鈥檛 have young Muslim men in our society attempting to wreak havoc. I expect the worst though because we have been promised the worst on several occasions and we have seen the worst perpetrated before. My real frustration is that Newsnight seriously fails to address these issues honestly and impartially. Newsnight, and other news programs, engender a sort of wooliness in the mind of the viewer. The most rabid racist or psychopath is generally treated with the same regard (or lack of it) as the rest. This passes as impartiality to some. Paxo once asked a Hezbollah spokesperson (a young female lawyer) about their desire to destroy Israel. She said that they merely intended to merge the current state of Israel into a single state, and the Jews would be protected under Sharia law (to paraphrase). Paxo took this answer at face value and failed to raise the issue of the poor track record for Jews living under Sharia. Shame on Paxo.

#66 elkoolio

You are certainly more likely to die in a car accident than a terrorist incident. The difference is that our susceptibility to traffic accidents has only a minor economic impact on the country. We also have some control over our susceptibility to traffic accidents. When jihadis blow up tube trains we are faced with a risk that we can鈥檛 control, unless we stop using public transport. If the current incident turns out to be a real then millions of people will suffer further inconvenience and delay using airlines and will feel a little less secure as well. This degrades all our lives a little bit.

Hi, ELJ (65)
The reason why nobody has charged the Israeli Prime Minister with war crimes is because self-defence is not a war crime. It may have slipped your notice, but it is raining missiles on Israel. Of course, the missiles are apparently miraculous - nobody is launching them because the only people who get hurt when Israel immediately bombs the launch sites are innocent civilians. Far be it from me to suggest that these poor suffering civilians were probably helping to hide the missiles in their houses last week, ululating and chanting "Death to Israel" as they stowed ordnance under their children's cots. When Israel pin-point bombs the sources of military radio traffic, those bombs only hit civilians, too. It truly amazing how radio traffic can spontaneously erupt from innocent blocks of flats.

So, the police haven't found any bombs yet. Surprise surprise. Consider the massive police reaction to the 'terrorist bomber' in Stockwell; 250 police surround the house in Forest Gate and a man is also shot there, then the house is taken to pieces. Now the country is under immediate threat from people supposedly armed with litre quantities of explosives similar to Nitro Glycerin and what happens? A few policemen turn up at each house and quietly arrest 24 and that is it. Some blue and white tape, front doors intact, no searches, nothing.

What does that tell me? That they did not expect any explosives and were not looking for any.

And look at the demeanour of the authorities by comparison: after Stockwell and Forest Gate they were scared stupid, with different people saying different things, nobody knew what was happening. Yesterday and today it was so well orchestrated - everybody was well briefed, nobody said anything out of turn, only the properly appointed people spoke about the 'alledged plot' as John Reid called it. He even looked as though he had had a full night's sleep - calm, composed, no worry about who else might be out there armed with bombs or anything else.

What does that tell me? That the government knew there was no threat, no plot, no danger. OK, they had some names and phone numbers obtained under torture from Pakistan, so how about putting on a big show, get Lebanon off the air, get people off Tony's back, can't have his holiday disrupted.

No, I am sorry, when terrorists blew up their house in Madrid when the police were after them, when we watched armed police taking out supposed terrorists stripped naked in London a while ago, then we can believe there is a problem. The last few days, no, it is all a charade, designed to make us look away from the real carnage in the Middle East.

The Russians got away with it in Grozny; the Americans got away with it in Fallujah, and now the Israelis have got away with it in Beirut. And we let them. Shame on us all, and especially the news media, for being so taken in by them.

# andrew 55
# alan 57
I agree this terrorists are motivated by religeous conversions of the infidels rather than the foreign policies of the western nations. If it had anything to do with the foreign policies, why aren't the terrorists from the Iraqi, Afghani, or Palestinian origins. Most of them are of Pakistani origin, some of whom have been to Pakistan for training and are brainwashed to carry out the aims of religeous organsations to convert the world to islam.

By the way Kirsty, 23 people convicted out of 895 arrested for terrorist offences is not a 50% 'cock-up' rate, it is a 96% cock-up rate.

It is not actually possible to be cynical about this government; they have shown time and again that they are worse than anyone could imagine.

9/11 was a real attack but that didn't stop the New Labour machine pouncing on it as a chance to advance their political cause by publishing councillor's expenses figures while everyone was watching the horror on TV. Remember: they actually did that; it is no conspiracy theory. They really are that callous and amoral.

Likewise, this may well have been a real plot to kill thousands of people but that's not going to stop John Reid manipulating the announcement to further his political ambitions and push his anti-Brown agenda.

So I'm sure that the fact that Reid gave his "you're all going to have to loose your freedom while we fight to get it back" speech the day before this all came to light is not a coincidence. And I'm even more sure that Bush's sudden use of the word "fascist" at the same time as Reid uses it is not a coincidence either. The UK and US governments are taking news manipulation to new levels and they're doing it as a team.

Colin #72

You're a damned pedant. Next you鈥檒l be highlighting that many of these were Irish terrorists and that most, if not all, of the convictions could have been secured using older legislation than the draconian nonsense brought in by the government of Mr. Blair, or 鈥淣athan Barley鈥� as I like to call him.

From last summer, from the US. Tongue in cheek but relevant to the current debate, if only to show that the debate may presently be a bit more lively in the UK, but it's not a new one.

Also relevant:

If you want to read a litany of knee-jerk Yank skepticism, just check out the comments on the latter link.

One of usefull techniques learned by attending Al-Anon meetings I have learned usefull thechnique to separate emotional chaos and manipulative talk of a drunkard was to "switch of the sound". It works beautifully on current affairs as well.

There are citizens amongst us who kill ( with some success) fellow citizens of this island.

There are people amongst us who try ( with considerably more sucess ) to kill the kin of some of our citizens.

There are people amongst us who help third parties to kill ( with spectacular results) the kin of our citizens.

Add the figures of the dead and wounded to these statements and you can see the imbalance immediately.

How then the death of the few can be considered to be justifying the death of many?

The answer is, of course, that in real life nobody switches off the sound, and so the few dead become valued so much more than many dead who by the same coin become valued very little indeed.

So much for valuing human life......

Can we change all this now? Do we really live in a democracy driven by the people?

Look at the main parties in the UK (and the US). Different names but essentially very little between them - so we'll just get more of the same but some feel comforted that democracy is working when governments change. It's all just a game.

With the tight coupling of political parties and media and financial backing driving one agenda, it's almost impossible to bring real, measured change.

Let's say more and more people awaken to what is actually going on around them and realise that reality is not what you read or hear in the media? We may want to put the war criminals inside our own government on trial - how does that happen? Start our own political party and hand out leaflets? Waste time by playing the game they run themselves?

We are all participants in an elaborate puppet show with strings being pulled by hidden hands and it is time alternative means of change are seriously thought through - before our own ability to free thought is curtailed. How free are we to protest now compared to 5 years ago?

BTW excellent quotes, Les (#42).

I have some - but not much - sympathy for the 大象传媒 here, because the story they have to deal with is, essentially, that nothing happened on Thursday. Confirming the details of something that didn't happen is quite tricky. But it would have been good to try.

What did happen, and what should have been the focus of the report, is that twenty-odd people were arrested under prevention of terrorism laws. That is all the we can be sure of. Unfortunately, the case of Walter Wolfgang demonstrated that you can get arrested under prevention of terrorism laws for as dangerous an offence as embarrassing the Prime Minister.

The press ought to have been doing two things: first, working to confirm whether or not the thing that didn't happen was actually going to happen, before reporting it as such; second, working out why it didn't happen on Thursday in particular, when police have been sure that it wasn't going to happen for weeks.

The difference between the reports we saw and the reports we should have seen is the difference between news reporting, which is commonplace, and journalism, which is rare to non-existent in a post-Hutton world. I have seen no attempt in the British media to look behind the face-value reports and find out what's actually going on. Without that, we might as well just be running a PR wire for the police.

Towcestrian - 53

Friends who work in the pentagon?? (I was in Manchester the day the IRA bomb went off, that doesn't mean I seen who planted it) Maybe that's the only place you get your information from. Maybe they are the ones who stole all the dead bodies from the scene, or the planes tail section, or the wings, or the engines, or the black box, or the pentagon security video, get real? If you are so apposed to my view, why haven't you mentioned world trade center 7? Do you have friends who worked there too? Have you read the official 9/11 commission report?

In british law, for someone to convicted, I was under the impression we use the terminology 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Much of the report of what happen on 9/11 is far from, beyond reasonable doubt.

My point here is that I have questions of my own which concur with many others from people I have never met or ever spoken too. I believe there are many terrorist groups in the world today, but we must get all our facts straight before we jump to conclusions, or worse, take action.

I helped to vote this government into power, and I don't like what it's doing with that power. surely it would be arogant to think we are ever passed the homework stage wouldn't it? We must always pose the questions we need answering, but then I don't need to tell you that, as you know it all anyway.

If I hear anyone else blame the current crisis in Lebanon as the "excuse" for this terrorist plot I will scream. It cannot be even remotely connected, other than by convenience.
The police started their nvestigation into this alleged plot approx 18 months ago. (My partner is on the team)
These terrorist groups are dedicated, intelligent and resourceful, but even they could not put such a devastating plan together, and execute it in the space of 1 month.

What's this? Cynicism about the UK government and the phantom bombers. Well the old guard lived and worked through the Blitz yet we cannot eat lunch because our discredited government wants to scare us into Terminal submission. What next? The terrorists claim to invent an underpant bomb. Maybe some mad muslim mothers organisation from Chechnya markets the Uranium tipped tampon. Guaranteed, we'll all be forced to travel in pre-op hospital knickers and an all clear "over the shoulder" plastic number.

The authoritarian state thrives. No alcohol on board as it's lethally flammable. Clearly not thinking "outside the box". After all Paxman can notionally set fire to his own wind, no doubt with enough force to bring down a transatlantic jetplane. Picturing the epitaph now; "here lies the dearly departed Newsnight Blog, one of the many victims of Farting Jezza, the notorious 'flatulence bomber' ".

May I remind all you naive folk who think that terrorists are clearly innocent (and by implication, the security services are either incompetent or part of a big lie) unless they have lumps of explosives lying around to be found, that your endearing simplicity is the reason for leaving security to professionals. It can take as little as four ounces of explosive to bring down an airliner. Those explosives can be made out of harmless, everyday products. Four people can climb onto an aircraft, each carrying one ounce of harmless ingredient, then mix them during the flight. Where are the explosives for the security services to be found? You base your assumption of innocence on your own ignorance of terror techniques, which is precisely why modern terrorists choose methods that appear innocent until the moment of success. In doing so, they recruit you, our legal framework and our sense of fair play as willing donkeys in their cause, and they must be doing cartwheels of joy reading some of the posts.
If, the day before 9/11, the security services had arrested twenty suspects on the grounds that ten of them owned (among hundreds of everyday objects) little plastic box cutters, you armchair experts would have derided them, too.
Scepticism is healthy, but don't confuse it with smugness. These are difficult times for those who protect our safety.

The issue of whether or not a connection exists between British Foreign policy and the increased threat posed by terrorists - both british and foreign born - seems once again to have been brought into sharp focus by the latest security alert. It seems the right time then to note once again the absurdity and downright disingenuousness of the official government line. In Kirsty Wark's interview with Douglas Alexander yesterday, she asked whether the government's action in Iraq and Afghanistan had increased the threat to Britian. Alexander replied that nothing justified terrorist attacks. Kirsty put the question again, only to receive the same answer. Douglas Alexander knows, as well as everyone watching, that the issue is not justification, but motivation. The vidoes released by the 7/7 bombers made clear what their motivation was British foreign policy. In deliberately prevaricating on this point and in avoiding facing the issue head on, is it any surprise that healthy scepticism of this government is quickly turning to cynicism?

My earlier post (26) described an ancient Persian system for plotting strategy that is applicable today, except that today it is known as Matrix strategy.
It predicts that a nation in the E phase, such as Israel, will reply with maximum scientific (NE) and technical (upper SE) force to any threat without regard to left side sensibilities. A nation in the SE phase, such as the USA, will reply likewise, triggering a return "up the diagonal" from the SE to "male" fundamentalism in the upper NW.
A nation such as ours in the UK is post technical having crossed the line at the SE and turned "female", finds itself at the S, where it will seek gender equality and fairness, and naturally be sceptical of any authority (N).
A rising fundamentalist (upper NE), having few physical supporters to overcome existing "male" (E) opposition to its intentions, will seek to recruit the left side of its enemies (who are W and hate the E) in order to destroy them from within.
It is the original warning in the werewolf tale, where the "female" falls in love with the "male" monster and sleepwalks to self-destruction.
These are ancient games.

Cynicism is generally a good thing but i have words of caution!most of the cynical and indeed of the 'unquestioning trusters' have their own underlying belief/agenda regarding who the 'evil doers' are ie murderous Islamic extremists or evil Bush and Blair. people like to stick with these underlying beliefs and appraise new events in the news, trying to make it congruent with this underlying belief. eg if police stop a terrorist plot then the cynics will regard it as government conspiracy to keep terror in the news. if a plot like 7/7 or 9/11 happens then it is blamed simply on Western foreign policy. some of us feel defined as a person by these underlying beliefs/views, and it is very difficult to relinquish these beliefs in the face of contradictory events on the news. it is easier to create an increasingly complex web of conspiracy by governments/police in order to maintain that underlying belief, the feeling of congruence and thus feeling of self worth. if only we could all be a bit more cynical of ourselves and what our own real agendas are!!

Cynicism is generally a good thing but i have words of caution!most of the cynical and indeed of the 'unquestioning trusters' have their own underlying belief/agenda regarding who the 'evil doers' are ie murderous Islamic extremists or evil Bush and Blair. people like to stick with these underlying beliefs and appraise new events in the news, trying to make it congruent with this underlying belief. eg if police stop a terrorist plot then the cynics will regard it as government conspiracy to keep terror in the news. if a plot like 7/7 or 9/11 happens then it is blamed simply on Western foreign policy. some of us feel defined as a person by these underlying beliefs/views, and it is very difficult to relinquish these beliefs in the face of contradictory events on the news. it is easier to create an increasingly complex web of conspiracy by governments/police in order to maintain that underlying belief, the feeling of congruence and thus feeling of self worth. if only we could all be a bit more cynical of ourselves and what our own real agendas are!!

Hi, Rob (83)
Justification remains the only measure of reason, not motivation. The bombers are all unfortunate disposable suckers, instruments of well-hidden masters. Today's bombers are motivated by Middle East events; others are motivated by animal rights; still others by the presence of a global chain of hamburger shops. There will always be plenty of real or imagined grievances and an unlimited supply of impressionable hotheads, so changing today's "cause" will have no effect; those who send these young people to pointless death will simply choose another motivation to wind them up.
The whole thing is a hall of mirrors.

I thank Newsnight for allowing this forum, and bringing open debate in from the cold.

In response to post 7 ("I am very tired of hearing conspiracy theories"), I am very tired of hearing the official conspiracy theory, when so much evidence contradicts it. For those who are satisfied with the 9/11 Commission Report, I recommend reading 'Chapter 19: Wargames and High Tech: Paralyzing The System To Pull Off The Attacks', in Crossing the Rubicon by Michael C. Ruppert. And yes, there's tons of other info too, on many other aspects of 9/11 that cannot be explained properly by the official version of events. Explain the collapse of WTC Building 7 without resorting to controlled demolition, and I'll take my hat off to you. I've found that people who argue against, and avoid, serious debate of these issues are, in general, extremely ignorant and unwilling to go deep into the issues - possibly from some reflex action whereby the possibility of rogue elements of a state killing their own people is somehow "unthinkable" - perhaps such a 'paradigm shift' would involve too many changes in their worldview. It is interesting to note how both 9/11 and 7/7 involved 'simulations' that almost exactly matched the real attack - perhaps a classic tactic in pulling off such attacks as a 'false flag' operation, and something that should be investigated thoroughly.

In response to post 28 ("The conspiracy theorists and assorted crack pots are even more sad than the Muslim appologists. It's like witnessing a weird manifestation of "stockholm syndrome" where those under threat in a hostage situation start to side with the terrorists out of fear and a hope they will be spared.") - you've bought hook, line and sinker into the idea that questioning the official version of events and thinking for yourself is somehow equivalent to siding with the terrorists. Congratulations in being a victim of basic mass manipulation.

In response to post 15 ("To discover there are some who believe that 9/11 and 7/7 were the work of the security services is mind-boggling. My own view is that the bogeyman did it.") - incredulity is an initial response to such matters. Also, let's not jump to conclusions about who perpetrated 9/11, 7/7 or the recent foiled plot. Many "conspiracy theorists" simply wish for a proper investigation by rigorous legal standards - to demonstrate that a suspect had the means, motive and opportunity to commit a crime. With regards to 9/11, they couldn't even preserve the crime scene, and reports of molten steel and possible evidence of the use of explosives was lost in the haste to ship the steel abroad.

In response to post 44 ("How shocking that at a time like this our national broadcaster could ever adopt the slightest resemblence to Lord Haw Haw !") - I just find it sad that an ad hominem attack is the best you can come up with, once the debate widens beyond your comfort zone.

I find debate is so often simplistic. Whilst we can be sceptical and think for ourselves as much as possible, it's possible that sometimes a terrorist event is a false flag operation, whilst other times it isn't, without having to have a default position.

I applaud Newsnight for their scepticism and bravery in reporting what has been said on the blog. As one of the last outposts of genuine investigative journalism in mainstream media, I just hope Newsnight can survive the budget cuts, the charter review, and the insidious CNN-isation and FOXNews-isation of global news reporting.

If it turns out that the 24 people arrested on Thursday were not part of a plot to blow-up aeroplanes, and in consequence they have to be released, then the police could end up issuing a statement stating that they had all been part of a paedophile ring. Or am I being too cynical?

150+ plus at least one opinion you censored - are the 大象传媒 now the governments mouthpiece?

How many responses to the Terror Questions blog did you refuse to 鈥榩ublish鈥�?

i can't trust the police and security services any more. becasue the have became like politicians. these days the name of the games is "spin". i think all 22 suspects are innocent and the whole drama is orchestrated by british government to distract people from reality in lebonan.

This whole airport security scare seems like propaganda to me, timed perfectly to shift the emphasis away from the stuff going on in Lebonan. In the last week or so it has been more and more upsetting to see images of people being bombed and killed. Even when burying their dead they are being bombed. Why are we the British not doing anything to help those people. But now the main headlines are about hand luggage and alleged terror plots. Fear tactics or reality?
Which is more scary, the possibility that this terrorist plot existed or the possibility that we are being fooled by our governement.

Hi, Zoran (92)
Yes, I do know a bit about explosives. If most lay people understand explosives as you claim, why all the questions about not finding them, binning them, and so on, in support of the many mad claims that our officials are perpetrating a fraud on us? In truth, most of the questions are ignorant, used to support equally spurious claims.
"Four agressive young men" won't get to the pilot, expecially with air marshals on board, and they would find it difficult to bite through the hull or the cockpit door.
Since on-board alcohol is diluted beyond the point where it can be detonated, and the onboard aircon will flush it before it can form a fuel/air mixture, it represents little risk - a greater risk is in the glass bottles that can be used a razors - hence the appearance of air marshals and PET bottles on aircraft. The PET of course, can be made into an explosive and detonated in the microwave oven (did't you just love Steven Seagal in "Under Siege"), but not if you have been stopped from taking a suitable liquid additive on board such as a glow stick.
The officals you list take their advice from professionals and make decisions accordingly. We get those officals through a process called democracy - they don't know much about explosives, either - that's why they take advice and act, like most of us, on the probabilities. Obviously, you prefer improbabilities, but that is your problem, not mine.
Clearly, we are doomed if the only leaders we can elect using democracy are all scheming dictators who apparently have a pathological hatred of Muslims and Lebanese people. Get a grip.
Saddam was a rottweiler we trained and armed to counterbalance the mad mullahs next door. When he turned rabid and showed signs of biting the hand that trained him, he had to be put down. Those that trained him know what his capabilities were, and it was his capacity that was stopped. That he didn't yet have any WMD was discovered FOR SURE only after the war. It's pity he had to be put down because he was very effective. Now he's gone, the mad mullahs are becoming a bit of a rectal trauma again. And no, none of this has to do with Islam or Israel or Lebanon or anything else - that is just the paint on the scenery.
It's really about willy-waving and testosterone. It always has been. It's what men do until they become absorbed into a life of Big Brother TV and blue decking in the garden and then fade from the scene when a new willy-waver takes over. The unfortunate young men who get killed on purpose by their own hand, or by accident during security operations are, like many dead civilians, just casualties beneath the feet of the bigger game.
We may not like it, but that's genetics for you.

can any one say that the guys picked up had any kind of flight bookings for the airlines mentioned?
this would or might say they had connection to a plot.
but i very much doubt so if any of the suspects were planning to fly out.
if the services can prove to the public of evidence,meaning hard evidence then we might take them as trusting, until then i am very much untrusting about what is coming out of MI5.
i want to belive everything my goverment tells me but with all the lies and cover ups,
its cry wolf.

I think we have a right not to believe the government line on terrorism after the lies in iraq and the poor inteligence we seem to have, as shown in forest gate and the de menesez shootings.

And we must stop the rhetoric and arrogance, muslims leaders know the problem, which is two fold, it is the ignorance of the muslim youth of the rules of their own religion and the imense anger they have which fuels violence, the anger is no doubt caused by American and UK foreign policy and im sick of people who try to be clever and say it wasn't american foreign policy that caused 9/11, of course it did, the US government has been exploiting resourses in muslim lands for years and its been supporting cruel dicatators like the saudis, saddam, mubarak etc. who the people hate, this kind of attitude reflects the ignorance of people in the west to whats going on in the muslim world, we must be open minded and admit the mistakes of blair and bush if we want to solve this problem.

Much has been made of the government's recent decision to make public the current terrorist threat level. However, the threat definitions seem to me to be vague to the point of meaninglessness, and are likely to the public unnecessary confusion and anxiety. Specifically:

a) The critical level is defined as "attack is expected imminently". This doesn't really say much about likelihood, but is above the 鈥渟evere鈥� level defined as "attack highly likely" (and also note that all threat levels are stated to be assessments over the "near term"). Are the intelligence services really saying that an attack is more than "highly likely" and/or will happen in a timeframe shorter than the "near term"? How does this square with the Home Secretary's assessment that the current response to the alleged plot is "precautionary" and that all the main players are in custody? Excessive use of the 鈥渃ritical鈥� and 鈥渟evere鈥� threat levels could easily create vigilance fatigue, and cry wolf scepticism in the minds of the public.

b) There is confusion between threat and response. Is the threat level supposed to define the position before the response or after it? Perhaps the government might argue that the current likelihood of an attack is not (more than) "highly likely", but that this is precisely only due to the measures currently in place. However again, the definitions are confusing and I have not heard anything which makes this clear.

c) The "low" threat level is defined as "attack is unlikely", whereas the "moderate" threat level is defined as "attack is possible, but not likely". What on earth is the difference between these two definitions?!

Regardless of all the dialogue and sceptical commentary surely some simple facts are clear and unquestionable?

1. Foreign policy, no matter how wrong it is (and oh boy is it!) can never ever justify killing people under any circumstances.
2. Killing people cannot and will not solve anything or change anything.
3. The content of U.N. resolutions does not need days of deliberation - they should contain one word - STOP!

One particular incident struck me as a summary of the barbarity and cowardice of those engaged in this madness. The blowing up of the bus containing Iraqi workers some days ago. Here were ordinary workmen queuing with some anticipation of a day's work who will have been elated to have got on the bus so they could earn a small amount to support their families. This happens worldwide every morning. Then some mindless thug blows them up. This is not justifiable in any way and to claim that it may be for some warped and twisted religious crusade is arrogant and stupid in the extreme and serves only to undermine humanity.

As much as I hold Islamic Extremists too account for their views & actions, I hold the liberal left & other minority political/pressure groups ultimately accountable, for putting wishful dogma & societal theories ahead of pragmatic common sense & history.

Therefore, because a vocal minority amongst our supposed 'intelligentsia' over thtat last 30+ years could not stomach the challenging debate about culture (race, religion, identity, interaction, values, integration & reform) we are all facing an unprecedented risk, but one which should have been avoided in the first place.

The various Muslim communities in the UK (2% of population in 30+ years) need urgently to look at themselves in a hard & honest way, ref the occurrence of this brand of domestic terrorism amongst their communities, rather than looking away to find refuge & excuse in conspiracy & fantasist theories to explain such behaviour. Until they do so, the rest of British society (98%) will continue to look over their shoulder & question where their morality exists & loyalty lies.

Regardless of sides in this issue, all should be mindful that the patience & tolerance of British Society is both legendary & ultimately finite. The lion once suitably disturbed, both roars & bites.

Hmmm... 'Cash for peerages' anyone'?
Seems to have got lost in the wash.

Blair鈥檚 foreign policy is not good at all, we can have serious and adult discussions about that, now is that a reason to justify a terrorist attack? Because today鈥檚 is foreign policy, tomorrow will be home policy and so on, we continuing bending our backs to the fundamentalism. I wonder where that entire thing about democratic consent is. Or we are turning into a double standards society?

This government has failed in a lot of things and is not popular, but is only government鈥檚 responsibility?

I鈥檓 tired of seeing Muslim 鈥渓eaders鈥� (I wonder how the get appointed and especially they represent the vast sects and divisions of the Muslim faith) making the 鈥渇oreign policy鈥� responsible of terrorism, but I鈥檓 wondering, where they have been all this time? Had they prevented youths become radicalised? Had they being talking to their communities about the dangers of extremism? Had they been talking to clerics the importance of direction to avoid radicalisation? They did realize that by preventing extremism they are helping and taking care of their own community? If they done it , it doesn鈥檛 seems to be working and if they didn鈥檛 then obviously they are hypocrites, is not about 鈥渦s鈥� and 鈥渢hem鈥�, it鈥檚 about all of us, there a not such divisions, we are humans and equals.

Obviously the questions above are the questions that needs to be answer and debated in order to find solutions to this problem, but it doesn鈥檛 seems to be room for critics, instead we prefer to fill that space with the most extravagant and silly conspiracy theories.

Ilook forward to the time when Jamie and Adam (Mythbusters-Discovery channel)can "Confirm" Or "Bust" the "Was there really a terror plot Myth".........

All joking aside I am just joe average and I truly belive we are being lied to by our government.
The biggest terorist of all sits in the Whitehouse.

Is it any wonder there is sceptisism? I'm wondering why 大象传媒 News 24 has only had about 10 seconds of reportage on the violence in Northern Ireland where dozens of petrol bombs have been thrown at police during a night of disturbances in Londonderry.
Now, I am a white lowish class (protestant/christian) Englishman - and I am getting quite worried about the 大象传媒's lack of reportage in the unrest in NI. Perhaps if these were Muslims, then it would have filled the next 2 weeks of reports? What's going on 大象传媒? Who's really in charge?

There are still terrorists in NI and I want to hear and see reports on this immediately! This is closer to home and we should be worried that there is still a strong underground force of Irish terrorists out there.

Hi, Rob (102)
Since it is crucial to the many conspiracy theories posted here, what facts lead you to your statement that "the biggest terrorist of all sits in the White House"?

john nash, and everyone else interested,

I don't claim that most, or for that matter, any lay people exactly understand explosives; what I say is that nothing about reported nuts and bolts of this alleged plot is beyond ordinary person's understanding. In other words I don't think that a critical analysis of government's statements requires an expert knowledge. If anything, it looks to me that the terrorist plot as described so far, appeals more to an imagination than to a reason. Indeed, the storyline given by officials resembles a Mission Impossible kind of script - I gather you're a fan - rather then a simple and efficient plot fashioned by, as it appears now, some well educated persons, among others. Why would a terrorist network that carried out a devastating attack only last year now suddenly switch to such an unrealistically complex scheme, as the one described by Reid? Evermore so since "[Pakistani authorities] claim that there is an Al-Qaeda connection to the alleged plot", which is exactly what both, the British, and the American authorities, suggested from the beginning. That will say, although different t-cells are independent of each other, they are all clones of one mastermind in terms of techniques and tactics employed, officially, that is.

No, I haven't seen "Under Siege", but I've seen whiskey and cognac burning, and I don't think one needs to get to the pilot to get a plane down. As for the US air marshals, sure, every home should have one, although I fear that on-board-antiterrorist-action of the kind you suggest is not what most people have in mind when they think of flying, talking about feeling safe.

I like this one John, we may reach some common ground here:

"Clearly, we are doomed if the only leaders we can elect using democracy are all scheming dictators who apparently have a pathological hatred of Muslims and Lebanese people. Get a grip."

If that was the case, we would indeed be doomed. However I don't think it's the only type of individuals who come to power through elections. Moreover, I do not think that present political and other "leaders" in UK and US are "all scheming dictators...", etc, far from it, they are far less obvious than that, and have a lot more pragmatic, rational objectives and motives. That's why thinking about it, and discussing one's thoughts with others is so important.

I find this whole debate counter productive. There are views expressed which freeze one to the core and which will only harm people with almost any view point. I have worked within the Labour party consistently since 1961 and I have no reason to believe that the dreadful things being asserted here are true. There has been a need in this situation to maintain confidentiality, and those who are now accusing the government of creating terror in the minds of the population must be deranged. They should remember that this government was reelected only 15 months ago and that it then had the trust of the electorate.That electorate has people of many religions and of none. The country is enriched by such diversity.

There's no doubt that the timing of this alleged plot makes you wonder if it is not orchestrated to divert attention from the mass murder in the Lebanon and to counter the growing anger towards the policies(war crimes to be exact) of Israel, US and to our sorrow the UK in facilitating, aiding and abetting.

More critically, the authorities should openly televise the evidence if any, for example those mysterious liquid bombs- where are they? Show us.

I do not believe that anything will come to light. The story will die out as the 45 claim by the neo-con poodle.

The US and British media have already begun the 'cleaning process'. Now they are telling us that the "plot" was at its 'planning stage'...referring probably to 'Wag-the-Dog's' infamous Albanian "plot".

NewsNight's security correspondent made a comical suggestion that MI5 revealed the "plot" by taping email exchanges, he then quickly corrected himself "beg your pardon, they monitored their Internet browsing...".

Who are you kidding?
Do you really believe that in the 21st century a grown man- moreover a sophisticated terrorist mastermind (with liquid bombs not seen before...) will communicate or rather declare their intention on the world wide web?!

Do you really believe that in a country where 'social profiling' and shooting in the chest is now awarded with MBE, a Muslim (let alone a terrorist pro) will act in such an unsophisticated manner?

It just doesn't click.

Margaret: (107) it's also worth remembering that the Labour party was elected on the lowest share of the vote since the war - just 37%. 63% of the population voted for a party other than Labour.

It is therefore wrong to claim that Labour had the "trust of the electorate".

I do, however, agree that in many cases we are being overly cynical about the government. Especially when we're yet to see the full results of this week's proceedings.

Hi, Zoran (106)
I repeat again what I have said elsewhere - that if, the day before 9/11, the security forces had arrested twenty people, whose only crime was that ten of them owned little 20p plastic box cutters, and explained that there was a plan to wipe out the WTC, the Pentagon and The White House with their box cutters, no doubt you would have said that it, too, was something out of Mission Impossible. Then, in the following weeks, when nothing happened, voices of scepticism would have been raised. The security services, like air marshals, consider themselves successful when nothing nasty happens, but that doesn't mean something nasty wasn't going on.
I am happy to discuss matters with people or chuck in my penny worth but facts, possibilities, probabilities and hindsight all have to be separated. Ask Newsnight's team.
The reality is that our leaders are just people with an interest in big politics, big economics and/or governance - it surely beats working for a living and the canteen serves better food :-) The big stuff includes ensuring that enough resources are dragged into our cave to keep us all in comfort, but that's when the brown and smelly hits the ventilator. Others see our success and don't like it for reasons of envy, politics, religion, poverty or whatever.

I realise this might be considered old-fashioned in this post 911 world we live in, but do we not still have some form of due process which can establish in a court of law the truth behind these allegations made, especially concerning the guilt of those arrested on Thursday. Yes, if the security forces believe an attack is immenent, then of course they must take extreme measures to prevent it. But this news has been portrayed as a 'mass murder' being foiled, although no concrete evidence has been given yet. If it were immenent, where are these liquid explosives? What links those arrested to the attacks? One can't help but think of 45 minutes, tanks at heathrow, forest gate and an innocent dead brazilian.

Perhaps I dwell too much on conspiracies. Perhaps the truth is too much to bear, so I want to believe something more corrupt is happening. But given the government's past failure at identityfing risks, added to the 'convenient' timing of this report (Lebanon, Dr 'Gloom' Reid's warning, election campaigns in the US), it is natural to question the information given by the all powerful media. If a heinous attack was thwarted, then congratulations and thanks to the security forces. But if the evidence does not present itself, it is the duty of every man and woman, of every religion, to remember these events and to question the future warnings of our leaders.

I confess that I haven't got the time to read all of the historical Blogs. However, certain things stick in my mind and "bug" me. Firstly, I never believe anything that this government tells us; it's history of spin and lies takes deception to new heights as an art form. Their credibility in all things well and truly lost and their re-election only 15 months ago says nothing as they were only elected by a small percentage of the population.
Secondly. Why should all these Muslims get so upset and think we are getting at their religion all the time. The fact that it just so happens that every terrorist attack is done by Muslims has no bearing on it I suppose! Who do they expect the focus to be on? The Budhists or something? Further; what right have they to complain about our politics and treat it as some great religous battle. I don't give twopence what their beliefs are; let them get on with it and we'll get on with ours. If this government does something political we don't like it is not taken as some great threat to Christianity!

what a country we live in now!!!

The latest terrorist plot headlines are shamefull exploitation of the propaganda war the governemnt media and pay masters in the united states are throwing at the general british and world publics

some pakistani names a number of suspect british terrorists and a catostrophic mass murder carnage is is unearthed and discovered to blow up dozens off aeroplanes out of british airports

fiddlesticks

this is american led american paid for and amercian insecurity after 911 no one will be found guilty
and the fact that the americans hand out thousands of dollars to pakistani and afgans to name some al queda members says it all
some offers me 10,000$ and ill name a few for them

coming in late at night secret conversations in alley ways
driving whites vans around to various locations,email chit chat about tihs and that

what a con!!!

Very interesting that this blog has flushed out a minority of The Usual Suspects obsessed with moral equivalence & parity fusion attempts between terrorist mantra, motivation & atrocity with the policy & action of governments from democratically elected progressive societies .

Why do The Usual Suspects behave this way? 鈥� because they too have multi-agendas themselves & need to 'blur the lines' between unjustified atrocity & justifiable reason. Consequence, the vulnerable get confused & become manipulated by those wishing to misuse the notion of free debate to motivate & radicalise the next wave of terrorists.

Either way, many elements of the left & anti-war coalitions etc & Islamic Extremism share same common enemies: 1) The US; Israel; The West; Capitalism. The left et al, have long been acting as the unpaid PR commissars of terrorists before 2003, now its just more open & they are even less apologetic & even more in denial of the consequence on their action on the societies. they purport to support.

The next successful large scale terrorist action in the UK will regrettably lead to a fundamental change in the relationship between mainstream British society & such minority groups. People should prepare themselves now & governments need to pre-empt negative response by mainstream groups & take affirmative action now to head-off social unrest.

Ultimately, the tragedy is that the home-grown threat of domestic Islamic terrorism was very avoidable. If only the liberal left / intelligentsia had not avoided the necessary debate about cultural issues between emergent non indigenous communities & mainstream British Society. Instead they did nothing more than to ensure the too many Muslims communities have been encapsulated in their cultural enclave, providing & defending a non critical bubble from societies necessary gaze. Thus has been born disaffected & separatist groups within such communities, the youth of which express themselves not by embracing the outlets of expression within democratic progressive society, but by embracing death in support of terrorist mantra. Collectively, the UK rejects terrorist demands with violence, we will not yield our decision making structures to such cultural barbarians.

I return to my basic point (above #44) which is:

Why can't the 大象传媒 conduct a large and well publicised debate about terrorism and the various parties alledged to be involved in it?

What do we know about Al Qaeda? Does it really exist? Is it just a bogeyman to frighten us with? Are various elements of governments (which should know better) actually pulling the strings of these outfits or quasi-outfits?

Can we have a debate please Auntie which will cover all these things? Where questions which don't usually get any airtime are actively discussed and debated? Where any rational question can be asked and not shouted down.

Everything goes back to 9/11 and each and every day more and more people are asking "what really happened that day?" ... or "how does a 110 storey skyscraper collapse in around 12 seconds without toppling over sideways?" ... or "was the plane over Shanksville shot down - and if not, how do you explain wreckage over an 8 mile radius?" and so on.

Without a proper debate that stimulates national awareness - how can we ever really get to grips with this?

BTW - I forgot to mention I emailed 大象传媒's "Panorama" programme a number of months ago asking why they don't do a programme about 9/11 and all the conspiracy theories that surround it - including the official US account which is the biggest unproven conspiracy of all!

If all these theories and explanations are just cranky - well here is the establishment's opportunity to prove it to us all. But then again - we'd all be thinking about it then wouldn't we? We can't have that can we?

I'm still awaiting a response. Pity - I like Panorama ...

And why don't we talk to the Islamists who may be close to these extremists? it will at least get us an idea of where they are coming from?
oh yes and this kind of 'listening' needs to be kept away from the foxnews type media or we will continue to be having terrorist problems into the future.

Well, I agree with you vikingar regarding the Beeb's coverage of Islamic extremism (which BTW I accept does exist). I have no views upon the conclusions they come to as long as we get honest reportage. There are bound to be cases which are genuine and some which are way off the mark.

I take no comfort in fantasy indulging at all - and take umbrage at your suggestion. I just want to know what is really going on.

As a building industry professional of 20+ years who discusses such matters within my own profession and various disciplines - I can tell you that a great many architects and engineers have been asking many questions about WTC1, 2, & 7 ever since the dust settled after that dreadful day. Our questions are based upon entirely pragmatic aspects of structural collapse mechanics.

It's a shame that you immediately resort to name-calling and assumptions about what I or others wish to believe. You are wrong on both counts. I don't like the ramifications of these matters at all ... but questions that are not answered, still remain questions.

When questioning the official line many people ask how such false flag events could be organised with so many people involved and how could a government be so callous to its own people?

If a US or UK government can launch attacks knowing thousands of innocent human beings will be killed or terribly injured in other lands, and can dispatch it's own countrymen to be killed or terribly injured - all in the name of a cause e.g. "war on terror", why would the decision process be so different sacrificing human beings (i.e. citizens) in your own country in order to achieve your cause?

These people are monsters who do not care what their electorate really think of them (does Blair show any hint that he listens or even cares what the electorate thinks?)

Why on earth would they do such acts? As mentioned in an earlier post, they answer not to the electorate but to hidden hands that control the global agenda.

Take a step back, observe and question why there are so, so many coincidences in this "war on terrorism" - announcements, duplicated events, dummy exercises, minimal evidence, CCTV conveniently not working at specific times - then join the dots and draw your conclusions.

Does anyone know yet if any of the people detained were booked onto a flight?

IF THE ARRESTED INDIVIDUALS ARE PROVEN TO BE INNOCENT LIKE THE FORREST GATE BROTHRES.. WHERE DO WE GO FROM THERE??
CAN WE START GUESSING THE NEXT PLOT

To John Nash
I love the willy waving testosterone driven analogy. The taliban/alqaeda/hazbulla/israeli army/bush/
blair..the people in power making this great big cock up (no pun intended)... one thing they all have in common is willies
i have a great solution, let's put women in charge...

Hi, Howard (116)
What's to understand about the WTC? I worked in project management of skyscraper construction some years ago and understand that the WTC was designed to withstand an aircraft impact, but nobody thought about one (let alone two) recently filled with fuel for a long-haul flight. The resulting hot fire did enough damage for the upper floors to move under conditions that destroyed the structural integrity of the building, and mass and gravity did the rest. I don't want to be flippant, but things tend to head straight down when their mass far exceeds what is left supporting them. It is a matter of good fortune that neither of the towers fell sideways and probably more to do with their vast, chimney-like construction rather than some evil Fred Dibnah hiding in the basement.
Since all large, modern skyscrapers have service and security personnel continuously crawling around their innards, it would be impossible for someone to drill the necessary holes around the cores and smuggle in enough explosives to demolish both buildings. In addition, some jobsworth is sure to demand what they are doing without going through proper channels.
I have to admit though, your suspicions are far more glamorous than my simple explanation, but that is the nature of conspiracy theories - they are not dulled by boring reality, as many of the blogs here demonstrate.

Ref - #127 P Morgan

Personally I by-pass the prose of lazy conspiracists & fantasists - links pse :)

Surely paraphrase rather than paste verbatim & some original thought would serve your opinion better (fantasist though it seems to be)

vikingar

I wonder how annoyed Kirsty would be if someone decided to question her sense of belonging and allegiences at a time of crisis by asking her if she can really be Scottish and British at the same time?

Will the conspiracy theory crowd please read this article in the Guardian urgently -

This is no time for cyncism that is so extreme the masses become stupid and believe opposites. We already have a repeat of events in Germany prior to Hitlers election but on a global scale - with about 50% of the population believing Protocols of Zion type Jews did 911 anti-semitic propaganda. Incredibly, Israel is the size of wales.

This has to stop, things are getting out of control and in the meantime the MCB are attempting to seize control of our foreign policy on a back drop of implied continued homegrown Muslim terrorist acts. This is incredibly serious in a time of war. Will people wake up?

Well, Beeb, you can shut down this site. It already exists at the Guardian.

I too am sceptical about whether the Metropolitan Police have got the right people but I have faith in the British system of justice that if innocent, those seized will be released and just wish that Muslims in this country would put this country's interests before their own for once. I do not blame the country's foreign policy and I remain confident in the government. What I do have doubts about it the capacity of any government of any description to deal with these intractable problems of Islamic terrorism and the Middle East. I think the world is descending into a dangerous irrationalism and that anti-modern Islamist ideologies are at the heart of it. I also blame the media for fanning the flames of this anti-modern irrationalism by lurid reportage. But more fundamentally there is the question of how we take in information these days, and the pressures there are on editors to get the most arresting images, the most gripping news stories. They too are contributing to the growth of irrationalism and should be more responsible and circumspect. Information taken in visually is strong on appeal to the emotions and short on empiric critical analysis. Editors - more in depth factual analysis and less lurid emotionalism.

It is odd that coming from such damning condemnation of the security services about the iraqi WMD's, the "dodgy" dossier and the dreadful screw ups over the Tube bombings that they have somehow managed to get over 20 of the right people for these potential attacks and do such a superb job.

in some respects even the americans arent that good. The sceptic in me does look at the staging aspect from the government only because there is calls now for the 90 day detention law to be passed and Blair didnt get it in but i dont think this government has the intelligence to organise and pass off this situation just to get a law through, it sounds too egotistical and their is no indivdual profit to be made or have i missed something?

The very fact that in John Reid's briefing not one word was mentioned as to who would of carried out these attacks, everyone jumped on the band wagon and presumed. Would it really be such a shock to see that it was middle aged, rich business men who roam westminister for their electorite?

Having run through all the postings bove, it is becoming obvious to me that the world is relentlessly moving to the 'Them vs us' new world order. This was requirement some years back but it is becoming a reality now - whether we like it or not.

So much Anti-Muslimism is developing nowadays that I am afraid the British society is becoming radicalised as people take entrenched positions on both sides with very few brave enough to take the middle ground.

Ambers have started to glow fanned by this hate. God forbid someday one of these ambers will ignite and then we will have a real fire! God forbid!

I see the makings of a communal catastrophe if not handled sensibly now.

Let us make the utmost effort to understand the people on the other side of the trench. Let us go that extra mile to get that dialogue.

Do not see the people on the otherside of the fence as anything other than what they are - human beings - not subhumans!

Have we learnt nothing from WWII? Recall how that catastrophe built up to a crescendo in 1939. It was years of ignoring the obvious that led to that world wide conflict. I see the beginings of another future world wide conflict. The seeds have already been sown. In our naivity, we are busy creating the climate to germinate these seeds of holocaust!

I am amazed how many only wonder here why the muslims are being radicalised? How many have actually taken the effort to find out why this is so? What I see only are knee jerk reactions rather than genuine understanding. All are just reacting what is driven by the media and politicians.

What is needed is real investigative research as to the root causes by actaully going into the community rather than interviewing the so called self-proclaimed 'muslim leaders'. They DO NOT reflect the community! They are what they are SELF-PROCLAIMED!

Just as you rightly abhor Anit-Semitism, do the same for Anti-Muslimism!

Like it or not, we are all Humans first whatever our beliefs! We are made in the image of God! At least we have the potential to be!

Hi, Aftab (132)
God is not the problem. Ancient religions, like their societies, were organic, "female" and peaceful. Then we multiplied to the point where competition for resources became necessary, our religions and societies turned "male" to compete, chose male prophets and leaders, and the monotheist game of "my religion is better than your religion" began. Missionaries are always followed by soldiers, followed by businessmen. More accurately, of course, the competition for resources continued and each competitor claims God is on his side.
In the UK, we are maturing as a society and our religions are becoming less monotheist and more happy clappy or abandoned as the wheel turns. In the USA, upon reaching the end of the male half of their wheel, they have preferrred to return to "male" monotheist fundamentalism rather than turn "female" (hence the term conservative - they won't jump the fence to the girlie side).
Now there is another old "male" monotheist fundamentalism reappearing, and that's why our "softened" religious people, like our civilians, don't understand what's going on. Hence the cycnicism sloshing around in the blogs.

So British Muslims disagree with our foreign policy - fine.
I myself am not keen on fifteen year old girls being taken to a forein country and being forced to marry someone they have never met.
I think stoning to death is an unacceptable penalty for adultery or homosexuality .
So is it therefore acceptable for me to strap myself up with expolsives and go and blow up my local mosque - of course not!!
There is no excuse for killing the innocent and no excuse for terrorism.
If muslims want to be treated without suspicion then they have to denounce those within their midst that carry out these acts in their name .

Ref #129 - Fernandez - "Beeb, you can shut down this site. It already exists at the Guardian"

Wrong.

Several sites better to address same issues from different directions. If Newsnight can build up a robust social network, its will be great, great idea beeb. However, the key will be how your sign-up, moderate, rules, regs, banning, appeals process etc. But there are missed opportunities out their that existing sites do not explore.

Social networking has its associated challenges: spam & paste, radicals, serial nuts, copyright issues etc.

But a Blog & Msg/Talk board combo a great development. Posts can provide good source of stories & you get people doing amateur research, must be a potential source of news for journalists somewhere in the contributions. Newsnight, could also poll users for opinions & insights. Yes loads of challenges, but risks can be managed & the rewards are great.

Look to existing sites to judge how well they do, two well known British examples (from good news organisations):

1. 大象传媒 - existing posting policies are too PC & responses muted (personally, as myself, out of last 10 posts, think only two got posted).

2. The Guardian - think the GU is great, but its been high jacked by a moderator community who act like a Thought Police, step out of line & contravene their unpublished 'norms' & your out (no appeal). Incidentally, too many moderators expose the very same 'right on' values/ideas, that are not mainstream, just prevalent within vocal minorities..

Views on all sides (within robust parameters) need to be heard.

A missed opportunity to date: the needs & voice of a discerning Newsnight, Today, Radio 4 audience etc .. needs to be served.

Newsnight - great idea - don't bow to pressure - its achievable.

vikingar

Quite honestly it is not Muslims I fear but the left in this country who are quite unable to defend liberal democratic values and in the name of human rights would allow any evil on earth free reign to roam and terrorise.

Hi Aftab, it is not Muslims in this country I fear, but the secular left whose visceral dislike of the indigenous religious traditions of this country has somehow - by some fantastic and twisted leap of logic in which it has lost all coherence - caused it to side with the rising tide of Islamists. This is in a petty fit of pique at its own ineptitude over the past 30 years. This perniciously cynical, irresponsible left would allow any evil free reign to roam in the name of human rights, and as a snipe against The Establishment. Liberal democracy needs able intellectual defenders but it has grown weak, flabby and corrupted by this corrosive attitude. THAT'S what I fear. THAT's the real 'enemy within' - not Muslims.

Is there a crisis at the heart of Muslim identity? Aftab, there is an equal, if not greater, crisis gnawing away at the heart of western liberal democracy.

Muslims may be guilty of denial and inertia but the left is more guilty by its treacherous active promotion of the notion of ALL guilt being on the British government side. Critique of 'Neo-imperialism' without context or end, etc.

Honestly, try as I might, I just cannot for the life of me see how the terrible evil things, the daily suicide bombings, that are going on in Iraq, are the fault of the British government - far less the British people! We are doing all we can to re-establish stability.

I really feel that this griping line of 'argument'(blaming the government and ill-defined British 'imperialism' for everything) is childish - along the lines of 'my parents made me anorexic, poor me'. I.e., it is what a spoiled, pampered, bratty, self-pitying kid does.

Mulling over the reason given by the representatives of the muslim community, namely that the foreign policy of the British government is the cause for terrorism, it struck me how fast history is forgotten.
Remember the Vietnam War?
Remember the mass demonstrations everywhere in the Western World? Remember how they were a large factor in politicians working for peace?
Where there any suicide attacks, anywhere?
No.
So why is it that muslims seem to think that only the treath of impendig terrorism can lead to change?
I confess, I don't get it.

Hi John (125) and thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Firstly, and this is important - these are not my views/suspicions alone.

Secondly, I respect your opinion and your obvious familiarity with the world of high rise construction - that is something we clearly both understand.

However, please just ask yourself these questions which won't go away:

How did the buildings fall so fast allowing for gravity versus inertia and the obvious impact delay between floors hitting each other, which would result from the so called 'pan-cake' theory?

How did they fall so neatly? You can't really believe it was just good fortune that two 110 storey buildings, and one 47 storey tower, collapsed so neatly into their own footprints with little if any sideways damage?

Where did all the concrete go? Tons and tons of it should have formed a huge heap at Ground Zero and yet there was so little. What there was, was a vast cloak of concrete dust covering much of Lower Manhattan. What caused this? A building collapse (which I have seen) is very uneven and messy. A building which collapses due to structural failure falls to the ground like a drunken man collapsing. It goes every which way. There is plenty of evidence of that. These three WTC buildings - two of which were so tall - came down perfectly neatly. They collapsed in just the way that buildings do not do as a rule. Not unless something is effecting their downward progress.

Each WTC tower had 47 massive strong central columns. It had approx. 20% redundancy of structure. The fireballs seen on immediate impact of each plane took care of most of the fuel payload in the first few seconds. The fires were going out as is evidenced by the FDNY's decisions to send men up to put out the fires. This info is available as the tapes by the Fire Department were recently released and we can hear what they said.

BTW - it is worth remembering that a fire raged in WTC1 in 1975 for over three hours over several floors. Eventually it burnt itself out. The building was superficially damaged - but not structurally. This fire led to the decision to install sprinklers. That fire lasted over twice as long as those on 9/11. There have also been far worse fires in other skyscrapers - and none have ever collapsed. It's curious that don't you think?

I must admit to being baffled by it all and have suspected it all relates to some kind of insurance scam. Anyway I'm going to leave it alone now until some independent experts (not US Govt NIST employees) look into it. The 9/11 Scholars for Truth seem to be doing that right now. They include engineers, physicists etc. I'll await their findings as some kind of useful impartial findings. I mean what can all these career guys in US universities etc. have to gain by making this stuff up?

Finally, I must say I am and always have been, a huge fan of the 大象传媒 and consider it to be the best that television has to offer anywhere on this planet. The standard remains so high and I hope it always will. It is a benchmark that others can only ever aspire to. I include Newsnight within that overall framework of course, because I have watched this programme consistently since it first appeared and it is the tops!

Hi, Howard (139)
I have to say that many years ago, I was lucky enough to stand on the pavement with my hands on the stainless steel and look straight up the WTC building. Magnificent. An absolute tragedy, quite apart from the horrendous loss of life.
I'm not party to all the investigation data, but I am happy enough with the possibility of kinetic energy adding to the pancaking. Having spend many days up to my buns in concrete and vibrators, trying to get progress to vaguely match critial paths, I have losg subscribed to Sod's Law - professional demolishers do millons of calculations, work with extreme care, and still jobs go pear-shaped. The WTC buildings, without any help, managed to drop stright into their footprints, in a perfect reverse of the way they were built -Sod's Law.
Why the concrete vaporised is a question for the Portland Institute - I don't know, but I bet lots of people have looked at the test cubes taken from each original pour.
Fire is a funny thing. Again, I'm not party to the forensics, so I can't really comment without knowing the fire paths and their peak temperatures.
I find it hard to imagine the buildings were struck by Jewish Lightning (sorry - an insurance job -a bad joke and, I stress, a teasing term of endearment to all Jewish readers). You know the preparations that go into demolition, and I cannot imagine how they could be done without attracting attention.
I'll stick with the official explanation - although inquisitive by nature, I tend to group all the other stuff with CIA plots, Elvis with Jim Reeves in the pilot's seat and all the other amusing stuff.

Hi John (125, 140) and Howard (139). Nice to see you taking contrary views but arguing the points elegantly, concentrating on debating the issues to hand, rather than the tactic of others who just name-call, or simply ignore such things. As Howard has said, it's up to some independent experts to make headway on this particular aspect of 9/11, but I thought you (John) might be interested in this well source-referenced summary of what's been said by whom:

With regard to your point (in post 140), "You know the preparations that go into demolition, and I cannot imagine how they could be done without attracting attention.", see the 'Other Points of Interest' section at the same link to do with Marvin Bush and Wirt Walker III (admittedly circumstantial evidence at best, but surely worth further inquiry when taken together with all the other evidence).

Personally, I think the greatest area for investigation has to be the effect of the wargames taking place simultaneously to the attacks, and how this affected the response of the military to protect America from the real attack, as they couldn't distinguish real from simulation.

I鈥檓 relieved that Newsnight has explored the alleged terror plot from a slightly cynical angle. I鈥檓 alarmed this perspective is so absent throughout the rest of the UK media. If it transpires, that these suspects have not obtained travel visas or plane tickets, then surly John Reids claims that 鈥渁n immanent security threat has been thwarted鈥�, are empty!

The whole 鈥淲ar on Terror鈥� is just badly built propaganda resting on very shaky foundations. The term 鈥淎xis of Evil鈥� and 鈥淚slamic Fascism鈥� are both in common use and seem publicly accepted now. In this current political climate I don鈥檛 know what to believe.

It seems plausible that UK & USA intervention in the Middle East could provoke enough hatred to initiate a suicide bomb plot. Alternatively a hoax bomb plot is an effective way to realign public opinion behind UK & USA intervention.

Ref - #138 Vivian Evans "Mulling over the reason given by the representatives of the Muslim community, namely that the foreign policy of the British government is the cause for terrorism, it struck me how fast history is forgotten 鈥o why is it that Muslims seem to think that only the threat of impendig terrorism can lead to change?"

Agreed.

Also since they are trying to force change against British mindset & establishment, given current tactics there is no better way than to ensure change will not happen, they should take note of the tactics of Gandhi.

Islamic Extremism intentionally chooses the path of violence against their enemies, they do not box clever, its why ultimately they are doomed.

The supposed 'promises of the next life' can only motivate so far, people have to live in the real world.

vikingar

For all the conspireacy theorists out there & those who doubt the motivations, honesty & competence of British Security services - police, intelligence etc.

Lets not forget the active case of the alleged British Muslims terror cell currently in the Old Bailey (similar MO as July Bombing & current thwarted alleged terror plane plot).

See the links, surely a more thorough investigation, transcripts, taped conversations, bomb making materials & video evidence than 'anyone' could wish for :)

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2]
[3]

Hi Andrew (141)
Thanks for the link - it makes intriguing reading. However, I remain sceptical of the conspiracy theories surrounding the collapse. It may have been a suspiciously symmetrical collapse, but that doesn't say it wasn't. There are so many imponderables. Were irresponsible people storing dodgy materials in the buildings? Maybe the US Govt was transporting weird stuff in the aircraft - if people only knew how much nuclear stuff moves on aircraft, they would poop themselves. The same goes for expensive and rare metals.
There's no space here to go through it all point by point - most conspiracies are either circumstantial or good old fashioned human failure. I have studied the way the universe works for forty years and still I am amazed every day at the sheer elegance and "impossibility" of some of its aspects.
Still, I will revisit the link and ponder the claims - if nothing else, it may prop up a few neurones for a bit longer - at my age, mine are steadily doing a WTC on their own, without the help of crazies.
I definately agree with the problems of the war games, though - more Sod's Law, and of course there could be lots of cover-ups, but I suspect they would have more to do with dodgy materials in the construction, service reticulations and finishes than New World Order Godfathers. Thanks anyway - its a bit of spice in life.

War is often used by politicians as a convenient distraction from domestic problems, as Maggie Thatcher did with the Falklands during one of the biggest recessions in the 20th century.

This latest crisis is no different.

In the US, Republicans were losing ground everywhere over Iraq, George Bush had record low popularity figures, and worries over losing control of both the House and the Senate in this year's mid term elections were growing.

In the UK, Tony Blair and Co had been suffering unrelenting pressure over when Tony was going to go, lost migrants, and the seemingly unending debacles at the Home Office.

They both needed a distraction. Cue the Middle East.

There are many Israeli sympathisers on both sides of the Atlantic. Rumsfeld and Cheney and many Israel friendly "Think Tanks" are in Washington, while in the UK Lord Goldsmith had been the man who said the Iraq war was legal when it wasnt, and Lord Levy - Tony Blair's chief fund raiser and Envoy to the Middle East allegedly has a son in Israel who is responsible for the office of Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert.

Washington seems convinced that all terrorists everywhere (except the IRA of course - they're freedom fighters) are all part of the same plot and have the same goals. In a way they are: Israelis seem to call all their enemies "terrorists" and the US seems to believe the Israelis know more about it than they do so whoever Israel labels a terrorist MUST be!

The Bush administration also seems to believe that Hezbollah is just another arm of the insurgents in Iraq and perhaps imagined they might gain some good PR from having a quick result against them by proxy and win more of the Jewish vote at the same time. More importantly, he might get the US press and monetary benefactors with Israeli ties to bolster their support: elections in the US are expensive and need a sympathetic press to "educate" the masses.

Israel can always be counted on, whenever needed, to provoke the Arabs into some sort of action that could be used as a pretext for war. Whether the Hizbollah fighters captured the Israeli soldiers on the Lebanese or on the Israeli side of the border we shall probably never know for sure, but Israel has made many cross border incursions in the last 6 years so either would clearly be possible.

In the past Israel has made short work for big gains in any skirmish with Arab forces (ignoring losing to Hezbollah in 2000) so I guess Tony and George both assumed their proxy in the Middle East would quickly create a result for them, distract the public from the problems of bodybags coming home from Iraq and from the many other domestic disasters.

This explains their reluctance to call for a ceasefire until some "success" could be seen in which they could bask in reflected glory, or at least move on from their previous nightmares.

I imagine the plan would be not unlike the 1956 Suez strategy in which Israel was encouraged to attack the Egyptians prior to the French and the British coming in to "restore order" to the situation by seperating the Israelis and the Egyptians from each other.

The 50 year later plan may have been for Israel to make quick gains, do the dirty work of killing a few Hezbollah farmers, and then for the US and UK to sponsor an "immediate ceasefire" plan that would consolidate the land clearances, replacing the Israeli soldiers with UN troops. Rather similar to the current arrangement in UN1701/2006 wouldn't you say?

However, they had dismissed the tenacity of Hezbollah who ejected Israel from Lebanon 6 yrs ago. The desire for revenge by the Israelis for their previous defeat, and George and Tony's desire to take revenge on what they saw as a sister organisation of Iraqi insurgents and give Iran a "bloody nose" blinded them to what air power alone can achieve. There was no quick victory. The Israelis lost their image of invincibility in Lebanon, just as the US had lost theirs in Iraq.

With the escalating civilian casualties, public opinion surprised them and did not go with the Israelis this time as it always had in the past (Israel plays the victim role to perfection). With the internet and blogs such as this many ordinary people no longer needed to believe only what the politicians and pet journalists or newspapers fed them, but could look up almost anything instantly to get at the truth.

The fluency in English and the very reasonabless of the Lebanese government leader certainly didn't help the G&T show much, nor did the one sided and clumsy manipulations of some Israeli ministers such as Isaac Herzog who hypocritically described the Hezbollah rockets, mostly home made Katoushas, as "horrible, horrible weapons" while his side were raining down death and destruction on an industrial scale in Lebanon. The lack of intervention by Syria or Iran directly also wasn't what they expected.

So they needed another distraction, something that would make the public dislike terrorists, something that would affect a lot of people, but something that was already under control and not really dangerous, but something which could be "blown up" to look like a big success in the press. And for Tony, something that would make his government look like they actually had a tight grip of things at the Home Office and were really in control.

A quick check with the security forces on what was in progress, and one of the "four major plots thwarted in one year" that hadn't been completed yet could suddenly get major media exposure which the other foiled plots had not received. But it wasn't enough to just announce another plan stopped, this one had to be big, scary, and must affect a lot of people. Cue Heathrow in the holiday season and pop bottle bombs.

In the US the administration must have liked it as security issues had always seen George's star rise in public opinion terms, since there were very few conduits for the average US citizen to get an unbiased view of US foreign policy and Americans always fall behind the President in times of crisis - hence the lack of any scepticism from Americans in your survey.

Back in blighty Tony could achieve a number of conveniences that would take everyone's eye off the ball, rescue the Home Office, and allow him to have a month off in Barbados with no problems back home.

Except few people believe them. After the missing WMD problem in Iraq, who would?

Hi SwissMac (146)
I take it that you're not the president of the local chapter of the Objectivist Society.
I hate to pee on your fireworks, but have you considered the possibility that the Hezbollah farmers' crop suddenly took off anf flew into Israel to distract the UN from giving Iraq a smack on its nuclear botty?

What short memories people seem to have. How many posters have asked what prompted 9/11? Well, I remember going to Lebanon on holiday (and a good holiday it was too) in January 1999, just as Iraq was being invaded for the second time. Remember that Iraq has been invaded during the adminstration of G. Bush senior, Clinton, and G. Bush junior. Don't forget the Iran/Iraq war, paid for by the US, and Oliver North and the Arms for Iran scandal. Any of this sounding familiar? It all pre-dates 9/11 and it all contributed to the current situation.

On the subject of Lebanon, what is happening to the Christians in Lebanon? Have they also been branded terrorists in George Bush's lastest onslaught against the Arab people? Mr Bush seems to live in a fantasy world.

I would like to tell the general public what it was like to holiday in Lebanon. I stayed in a hotel about 10 miles north of Beirut, in a town called Jounieh. The town was full of bars, restaurants and clubs, all open until the wee small hours. The generosity and hospitality of the Lebanese was second to none - on Hogmanay, I went into a restuarant and was invited by a family there to share their meal as they had plenty food to share. Then the Arak came out we celebrated the New Year, while the Lebanese Army tanks patrolled the streets. The Casino du Liban sat on a hill to the north of the town, full of glamorous Russian and Bulgarian hostesses. Touring the country, we visited the Cedars, Bcharre, the ski resorts, Tripoli, and yes, we visited the Bekaa Valley. We saw the vineyards of Zahle (and drank some Lebanese wine!) and were shown around the Roman ruins of Balbek by a local Hezbollah man who was very excited that we were Scottish and made us promise to visit again and bring whisky ("you bring whisky - I bring food!"). Travelling though the Bekaa Valley was slightly disconcerting because of all the large pictures of the Ayatollah Khomeini; however, anyone we came across there could not have been more welcoming. Also, we were subjected to Syrian roadblocks on all of the roads. The Lebanese did not want the Syrains there. They would say "we know why they are here, but it is OUR country and we do not want them." We travelled there during Ramadan, but not once were we reprimanded for eating or drinking in public. The Lebanese spent a long time fighting one another in a bloddy civil war. They learned the hard way how to live together, Christians and Muslims. Meanwhile Israel behaves like a spoilt brat if a child, its selifsh behaviour encouraged by its indulgent parent, the US. Well, spoilt children grow up, Mr Bush.

Hi John (145) - great post :) I think there's a lot of truth in what you say about good old-fashioned human failure and cover ups for more prosaic reasons. I'll keep this in mind.

Vikingar (144), I've read the links you suggested, and have to say there's an enormous difference between failing to blow up a London nightclub and pulling off 9/11. No-one, as far as I know, is denying the motivation and honesty of almost all British security personnel, the police, etc. They do a great job under unbelievably difficult circumstances (I know, as I have relatives in the UK police force). If a few dozen people conspired to pull off 9/11, it's not through the former's involvment, and the same would go for any false flag op. Also, being open to alternative explanations for 9/11 or even 7/7 is not to deny the existence of terrorists or the threat of Muslim extremism, but to adjust the context in which they're seen (ie. they're sometimes used as pawns in a greater game).

Anne (148) - loved your description of how Lebanon was during your holiday.

Newsnight - I think you need to consider a threaded discussion board, this linear format is extremely tedious to use.

Why are we cynical about the timing? The same people claim this must be a ruse are those who have been telling us for ages that Iraq/Palestine/Lebanon is "inflaming Muslim opinion" (A huge generalisation in itself). Since an attack is exactly what this seems to predict, don't events in the Lebanon explain this, rather than suggest a cover-up?

In terms of arresting the wrong people, we are told that it is terrible that many of these people are arrested and never charged. They are then released and sent home, when the police and CPS fail to find evidence against them. It would be interesting to see whether they would have been released in some other countries, evidence or not.

The UK is a country of checks and balances. However much you disagree with the policy, we always have the option of electing someone new, or that the courts will come to an independent decision.

Those of you who hate the US - however evil the policy of a particular president, the American people can choose to elect someone else, and he can serve no longer than 8 years. Does this happen everywhere?However evil the regime at Guant谩namo Bay, the president found himself overruled by the Supreme Court and the detainees must be released or face a proper trial. Would a dictator have allowed this to happen?

My point is that, even if we do maintain a healthy cynicism about the motives of Bush or Blair, the way that the UK (and the US even more so) is constituted means that they are not dictators. They are scrutinised by Parliament (and Congress, and the Senate), and by the courts.

Am I alone in thinking the world has gone mad? The libertarian Right is supporting ID cards and a police state, while the liberal Left support people who want to oppress women and kill homosexuals. Peace campaigners are justifying the rocketing of civilians and anti-nuclear campaigners are saying some countries should develop nuclear capability.

Everywhere you turn, on every side, the arguments are becoming more extreme and more cynical. It would be great if we could use the Lebanon ceasefire for all sides to take a step back and think about what the moderate, peaceful road might be. And don't come back to me with, "Well, if the other side did this, that and the other, then Bob's your uncle." We all have to look at what we are doing, what we believe, and how many people die as a result.

Is funny Paul Mason should spell scepticism as scepticism and skepticism in the same article. The first rool 4 being takn searieslee iz shurely gud speling?

I don't think the British public actually believes any of the conspiracy-theories, but it doesn't mean we won't state them or create our own for fun. Personally, I think the whole thing is an elaborate insider-dealing plot by Fund Managers to mess up global markets and become rich.

Ref - #149 Andrew

Sort of agree & I am not against responsible review, just pointless speculative conspiracy activity for its own sake (but no way subscribe to the idea that the establishment acquiesced to foreign demands to commit an own goal to justify control reasons).

In peacetime people have a right to protest. But in wartime similar can only be achieved by responsible & constructive criticism.

The authorities are in no obligation to adhere to peacetime rules ref disclosure & openness. Its war pure & simple. To which events, timescales & information is but another weapon to fight a morally bankrupted enemy. After all, the misinformation exercise conducted by Islamic Extremists coupled with the fusion attempt at moral equivalence & parity arguments (ref terrorist mantra/atrocity & policy/action of elected governments of progressive societies) by the left & others (anti war, elements of liberal left - for their own agendas) its a deliberate effort to blur the lines to attain different goals.

Such blurring has resulted in contributing to the 'perceived injustices' argument & the victim mentality for many sections of Muslim communities in this country, which has undoubtedly had negative influence on the vulnerable in those communities (the willingness of the youth of these communities prove how ideas of 'multi cuturalism' have utterly failed so has the notion of self integration)

Key to our collective shared common norms & values - hold & display views, react with shock/horror at government policy, citizens are free to protest on the streets, organise pressure groups, lobby the establishment, seek electorate representation & even stand for election.

But do not expect the mainstream British society to sit back & take it when violent minority groups in historically non indigenous communities offered a home by the UK since 1960's, misuse it instead to launch domestic & foreign terrorist acts.

Being classed as 'British' is not an entitlement or automatic right to do anything- nor is it a 'flag of convenience' - citizen ship of UK has the attributes of responsibility - reject that & our society is free to reject those who misuse it (incarceration / exclusion etc).

The most crazy point - given several trials underway ref Islamic Terrorists in the UK - they would still have to right to vote in elections (given last years EU Court ruling ) - mad !!!!!!!

vikingar

Ref - #149 Andrew " 鈥�..Also, being open to alternative explanations for 9/11 or even 7/7 is not to deny the existence of terrorists or the threat of Muslim extremism, but to adjust the context in which they're seen (ie. they're sometimes used as pawns in a greater game).

Sort of agree, & I am not against responsible review, just pointless speculative conspiracy activity for its own sake (but no way subscribe to the idea that the establishment acquiesced to foreign demands to commit an own goal to justify control reasons).

In peacetime people have a right to protest. But in wartime similar can only be achieved by responsible & constructive criticism.

The authorities are in no obligation to adhere to peacetime rules ref disclosure & openness. Its war pure & simple. To which events, timescales & information is but another weapon to fight a morally bankrupted enemy. After all, the misinformation exercise conducted by Islamic Extremists coupled with the fusion attempt at moral equivalence & parity arguments (ref terrorist mantra/atrocity & policy/action of elected governments of progressive societies) by the left & others (anti war, elements of liberal left - for their own agendas) its a deliberate effort to blur the lines to attain different goals.

Such blurring has resulted in contributing to the 'perceived injustices' argument & the victim mentality for many sections of Muslim communities in this country, which has undoubtedly had negative influence on the vulnerable in those communities (the willingness of the youth of these communities prove how ideas of 'multi cuturalism' have utterly failed so has the notion of self integration)

Key to our collective shared common norms & values - hold & display views, react with shock/horror at government policy, citizens are free to protest on the streets, organise pressure groups, lobby the establishment, seek electorate representation & even stand for election.

But do not expect the mainstream British society to sit back & take it when violent minority groups misuse citizenship to launch domestic & foreign terrorist acts.

Being classed as 'British' is not an entitlement or automatic right to do anything- nor is it a 'flag of convenience' - citizen ship of this UK has the attributes of responsibility - reject that & our society is free to reject those who misuse it (incarceration / exclusion etc).

The most crazy point - given several trials underway ref Islamic Terrorists in the UK - if convited these terrorists would still have to right to vote in elections (given last years ruling ) - mad !!!!!!!

vikingar

How much longer before journalists

a) start to explain to Muslim apologists that democracy means NOT blackmailing your government and bombing the population when you're not keen on its policies ...

b) start thinking about the real anger that the public is feeling when we have to listen to an endless procession of people complaining about a society and democratic system and values they clearly dont support...but that supports them.

c) give a voice to the 'silent majority'...who are pretty fed up with being ignored

We are in the current situation because there are those who will not accept that the past is the key to the present.

The boomerang of American 'foreign policy' is just begining its return trip. The old adage 'what goes around comes around', holds for countries as well as individuals.

Maybe....just maybe there are evil terroists with a twisted view of one of the worlds major religions. And right now they are blaming all us 'Westerners' for the civil war in Iraq?
Maybe if they really want to accomplish something........oh lets see.......why not vote in an election!
If you're really got a problem with this country's foreign policy, there's an election in a couple of years......let it known then!

to many zionazis and fundamentalist terrorist christians typing too much rubbish here. Personally take out blair and the heebs controlling this country and things might be a bit better.
ps the iranian president is right, bring back the SS and let them open a new string of hotels in isunreal. STFU about elections, make me see my brothers and sisters dying aboard on the TV, then watch yours burn on the underground. I salute our soldiers. hopefully you scum may learn something...if not then also die.....

to many zionazis and fundamentalist terrorist christians typing too much rubbish here. Personally take out blair and the heebs controlling this country and things might be a bit better.
ps the iranian president is right, bring back the SS and let them open a new string of hotels in isunreal. STFU about elections, make me see my brothers and sisters dying aboard on the TV, then watch yours burn on the underground. I salute our soldiers. hopefully you scum may learn something...if not then also die.....

to many zionazis and fundamentalist terrorist christians typing too much rubbish here. Personally take out blair and the heebs controlling this country and things might be a bit better.
ps the iranian president is right, bring back the SS and let them open a new string of hotels in isunreal. STFU about elections, make me see my brothers and sisters dying aboard on the TV, then watch yours burn on the underground. I salute our soldiers. hopefully you scum may learn something...if not then also die.....

I have been a fan of 大象传媒 news for over 20 years. I used to turn on a shortwave to hear quality unbiased reporting and more recently tuned in to the evening news on TV.

I have noticed in recent months that the reporting on the mideast situation has a relatively strong editorial leaning expressing empathy to the muslim extremist cause. Your reporters have repeatedly 'guided' interviews to this editorial view without identifying a shift from reporting to opinion. This is wrong. Just tonight, your reported asked "Do you think that President Bush sounded defensive when he said Israel won?" with no sustantiating background. I suggest you have someone go thru your tapes and you will easily see what I have.

When 大象传媒 gets it's act together, I will be happy to return and again call myself a 大象传媒 fan.

Ref #140 - Mike Nolan

Unfortunately I have to agree with you ref the slippage in the normal highs standards of the beeb (which I love & regard highly).

For the first time in 30+ years consumption of the 大象传媒 output, I have had to intentionally look elsewhere for balanced coverage on a story (besides the usual general browse of various NCA sites/orgs).

At times the bias has palpable on all levels, for instance opening shots on story - split screen & national flags of Israel left side (superimposed slow images of people standing around what looked like smoky bomb site) versus Lebanese flag on right side (superimposed slow images of armless child in agony in hospital bed).

The beeb hardly ever asked probing questions of Hezbullah, never investigated their casualties, rarely touched on how comes a terrorist group transforms itself to perform like a terrorist army brigade, or the tactics used by Hezbullah & its supporters of innocent Lebanon's (human shields & body bags).

Well aware the passion of liberal left & intelligentsia -esqe journalists keep the place ticking over, but they ought to be mindful to serve the mainstream, not the wishful thoughts & ego's of 'elites' , no matter the temptation.

ME domestic coverage by the 大象传媒 (1 o'clock, 6 o'clock & 10 o'clock) was lamentable. Newsnight, Today & News 24 kept the flag flying. Jeremy Bowden & John Simpson usual high standard, but the once great Fergal Keane, dropped his guard, went native & lost objectivity (seems to have disappeared as well?) [1]

Put plainly, if the 大象传媒 is going to take sides, esp in highly complex issues, the 60+ years agreed convention of the public good from the public purse in respect of our national broadcaster - gets fataly underminded.

Pragmatically, for those journalists who let their 'socialist/liberal slip show' how much liberal left agenda do they think you are going to get over on commercial stations, if the beeb looses public support/funding & has to fend for itself in a commercial world.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]

I'm sure the actual threat has not been made up but it is clear to me that the story is being spun. Reminds me of Farenheit 911.

We do have a fifth column that has been allowed to flourish unchecked in this country and it is time we did something about it. They call themselves British Muslims, they enjoy the rights of citizens and should be expected to take on board the responsibilities of living here.

Changing are foreign policy and introducing new restrictions on the freedoms of the majority are not the answer. British Muslims who do not like the policies of the Government should exercise their democratic right or leave the country. The plotters are guilty of treason.

John Reid's interview on News 24 Sunday made it clear that the latest terror threat will be used to bring back the Government's proposal for holding people for three months without charge. Then all those who heckle Jack Straw at the Labour Party conference should beware!

So why do we need new laws? This Government removed the penalty that is needed in the present circumstances. All terrorists should be charged with treason and the Government should reinstate the death penalty for treason.

If they are so keen to meet Allah in death, we should be arranging it for them at the end of a syringe.

Why the hell should we, the British Taxpayer, fund the re-building of
Lebanon? That would be a direct subsidy to the Israelis, and would re-
assure them that whatever they choose to do in the region we will cover
the cost.

Let the Americans pay for it - they finance the Israeli state in its
suppression of Palestine. Or better still, why not put a tax on everything
we buy from Israel and fund it that way?

Re-building the infrastructure and buildings would of course be a form of compensation to the Lebanese for the damage, but if we accept that compensation is due, why not compensate the families of those who have been killed by Israel's carnage? There is surely a much greater moral case for doing so, but of course it will be left to the Syrians or Iranians who will then attract criticism for 'supporting the terrorists'.

I watched Hillary Benn in the Lebanon this morning. What a pale shadow of his father he is! Is it the curse of short-term politicians that they cannot think more than a few minutes ahead? Bush has declared his policy of imposing 'democracy' on the Middle East and now Mr. Benn agrees that Isreal's demolition of Southern Beirut and Lebanon is a price that had to be paid to remove Hizbollah as a 'State within a State'.

It will certainly do that - they are such heroes now that come the next election they will sweep the board across the whole country, and so will be the State! Duh!

Will Bush then accept their new democracy? Will he hell - just as he refuses to accept Hamas in Palestine. So it will become clear that the only kind of democracy that Bush is interested in is one that he and the Israelis are comfortable with - long live the slave 'non-state' of Palestine!

Hi, 158 and 159
Spoken like a true liberal democrat -I salute your indefatigabily, as I am sure all scums do. On a medico-legal note, however, you appear either to have a split personality or one of you has a decent case for copyright infringement.
Since either or both of you is/are blessed with copious intelligence in the way that a tadpole is blessed with copious pubic hair, I couldn't possibly argue with you.

Re: #142

To reiterate Kram's post, (and excuse me for lifting this from a source other than the 大象传媒) but this makes interesting reading looking back on the events and discussion on this blog over the past week.

"...one senior British official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports."

Source:

How very odd:
1. that Newsnight should refer to "hundreds" of cynical bloggers contactting this site - when the truth was "150+"
2. that Newsnight tonight showed the short video clip of one of the alleged terrorists without saying who released it or why. The implication was that it somehow compromised him. In fact 大象传媒 News online wrote
"And CCTV footage has emerged of one of the men being held, Tayib Rauf, at his father's business hours before he was arrested.

A friend of Tayib Rauf (left) released footage of him at the family business

It was released by one of his friends, who said it proved Mr Rauf was innocent of allegations."

Presumably this is not news for Newsnight.
Newsnight seems anxious to lose the reputation it once had for being a custodian of what was really happening. Quis custodes...
One thing about this blog is that it not only reflects but justifies scepticism.

In this global war against Islam, it is hard to tell whether or not 9/11, 7/7 etc are 'Reichstag' events.

What puzzles me about 7/7 is that we have only seen CCTV footage of the four as they entered Luton station.

There have been NO CCTV images shown of them actually going downstairs to the Tube @ King's Cross station which is crawling with cameras, or boarding the Tube train(s), where platforms have had CCTV cameras for years.

Sorry, I don't get it. I may be wrong and they were indeed murderous terrorists, but having commuted through King's cross thousands of times, I cannot imagine that they were not caught on camera, actually at the station.

Ref: 157, 158, 159.

Thank goodnes for liberal, Democratic societies that allow you to air those views eh!!??

Hi, Shirley (168)
Like all people in a free and liberal democracy, I welcome everybody's opinion because they may draw my attention to some danger I have missed - one of the great strengths of free speech because it means lots of eyeballs are watching the fort and free to warn us.
I do consider some anomalous events, but I tend to put them down to human error - in your example, for example, someone was maybe watching Big Brother late at night instead of loading the camera videotapes, or perhaps someone deleted the tapes because they showed him having a night out with his teenage babysitter.
I am often cynical about official versions of events, but I am also often cynical about some of the cynicism.

Hi Shirley (168),
Whilst I've already agreed on this forum with John's (170) excellent point that many seemingly anomalous facts can be put down to simple human failings and the subsequent cover-ups of those failings, I'd like to counter-point it with some information which may trigger grand 7/7 conspiracy theories in people of a certain inclination.

Bruce Lait, who was in the tube train carriage of one of the bombs, reported to the Cambridge Evening News: "The policeman said 'mind that hole, that's where the bomb was'. The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train."

Peter Power, MD of Visor Consultants, was reported as saying on Radio 5 Live, "At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it [7/7 bombings] happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now." - due to client confidentiality, Power couldn't name that company.

There are many other interesting bits and pieces of info too, although the above two intrigue me the most. Surely an exercise simulating bombs precisely at the same time & places where REAL bombs went off is suspicious enough to qualify at least as a LEAD for further investigation!! Could the 'muslim terrorists' have been loyally working for MI5 on a legit simulation to improve UK security, only to find out too late that some heartless person had switched the fake bombs for real ones and they were patsies setup for the blame? For those who keep harping on about conspiracies needing too many people involved for them to be credible, how many people does it take to switch duds for live ones? Everyone else could be innocent. If there are holes in the argument, I'm sure there are some, that's fine - it's not meant to be 'case closed', but merely the grounds for a proper investigation - to assure us the authorities really are capturing the criminals and not being led down the garden path by them. Why are we all so afraid, to only consider the options presented to us by officialdom? Sherlock Holmes would be very disappointed in us, and we wouldn't make the grade for his Training Academy!

Please forgive the link to Jones' firebrand site, but it is a link to a page with lots of convenient links in one place regarding 7/7 from a conspiracy angle. . Enjoy, but don't forget the Official / Sod's Law / Human Failings / Co-incidences hypotheses too.

Given history of these events, the next Islamic Extremist atrocity in the UK, is most likely going to be larger in scale, bloodier in impact & even more longer lasting (esp if they go for chemical, biological & god forbid a nuclear facility target).

So against the background of what has gone before & since 911 in the UK

鈥�. when the next Islamic Terrorist atrocity eventually gets through & hits the UK, what will be the mainstream public reaction be (i.e. 98% non Muslim) if:

1. The UK's 2% of population classed as British Muslim, have not widely acknowledged & actioned the need for immediate overhaul of how their communities conduct themselves & integrate/assimilate with the mainstream society around them.

2. The British liberal left & supposed 'intelligentsia' (small, but disproportional vocal in number & influence) have not broken out of their myopic gaze / intentional denial of the scale & cause of cultural intransigence.

3. The New Labour British Government has not done sufficient to counter significant inter community relations (assimilation / integration debate).

4. The New Labour British Government has not done sufficient to bolster up counter terrorism efforts.

Food for thought 鈥�..

Q.1 will inaction/failure to delivery, wishful thinking or a denial of the situation (cause & scope) PREVENT elements within Britain's mainstream society taking action themselves to the counter the threat aimed at them?

Q.2 what then for the UK, if British Society breaks ranks & demonstrates its displeasure & disappointment & turns to non State led/sanction direct action, outside of State control?

vikingar

Hi Vikingar (172),

Q.1 will inaction/failure to delivery, wishful thinking or a denial of the situation (cause & scope) PREVENT elements within Britain's mainstream society taking action themselves to the counter the threat aimed at them?

imho,
a) inaction will logically prevent e.w.B.m.s. taking action
b) not sure what you mean by 'failure to delivery'
c) wishing thinking, by definition, would have a negative impact on countering an actual threat
d) denial of the situation (cause & scope) would also negatively impact countering the actual situation

Where we seem not to have consensus is in the nature of the threat & situation (cause & scope). From my pov, as someone at least open to realpolitik conspiracy theories (no aliens, Elvis or wildly improbable scenarios, please - although one man's improbable is another man's mundane reality!), there seems to be a very powerful, international hidden hand behind many events (in addition to the many human failures John! :), and determining its existence is hard enough (even when you have an independent income, and can spend days researching it!!), let alone determining the exact nature of it. The average person in the street, or on the Newsnight team for that matter!, has no chance in this regard. They can't spend long enough doing the one story.

I imagine I would agree with you on many points you care to raise about the threat to the West posed by Islamic Terrorists. To me, Islamic fundamentalism swishing around the deluded minds of ignorant, brainwashed young men (whether or not they've had their family blown to pieces by Western high-tech weaponry) is a danger to us. I'm no muslim apologist, nor even left wing. But I also see these guys as putty in the hands of others who pose an even greater danger to us, those who seem to wish to establish (for want of a better phrase) a New World Order dictatorship, using the methodologies of order-from-chaos and problem-reaction-solution. The idea of a permanent international power-base beyond national politics is not well researched - how can it be, the system is setup to make sure it can't be! And I'm not talking about an international Jewish conspiracy, either - that's another reflex action that stops debate. Israel is largely a client state of the US, and like the US itself is just another pawn in the game, to be used at will. It's on too grand a scale for most of us to comprehend, although several important people have caught sight of these powerbrokers through the years. Buckminster Fuller called them The Great Pirates. It's as good a name as any. it's why the Federal Reserve is a system of PRIVATE corporations. Control of the money supply is a fundamental piece of their jigsaw. If you think the US really is in trouble financially, then check out the largely unreported story regarding the Wanta Plan - trillions that could be released into the US economy, - whilst we plebs are kept busy with 'news' about the size of hand luggage, this goes unreported by Newsnight!! Why? A zillion mainstream pundits would give you any number of reasons on the true 'cause & scope' of the problems of the US economy, without once mentioning the Wanta Plan which changes the whole picture about the state of the US economy. This is what I mean about us not having consensus over what the 'true' situation is and, therefore, what rational actions should flow from an analysis of that situation.

In practice, in answer to your question, as I'm just an ordinary guy, whenever there's a terrorist attack I have no choice but to join in with the consensus perceived threats. It's a pragmatic reaction, and any high faluting ideas about international conspiracists triggering events fly out the window. It doesn't stop me thinking I'm just a pawn living in a reality engineered by an unseen hand though, but there's not much I can do about that aspect of my life!

Q.2 what then for the UK, if British Society breaks ranks & demonstrates its displeasure & disappointment & turns to non State led/sanction direct action, outside of State control?

Well, as we both know, if there were a WMD attack all hell would break loose. Let's hope it never happens on such a scale. Muslim Terrorists aside, we have a pretty fragile system - all it would take (e.g. by war with Iran) is for the failure of those 50 oil tankers a day to reach European ports, and all hell would break loose anyway.

Hi, Vikingar (172)
The answer to Q1 is that the rule of law will prevent it. That's why we have it, to prevent your hypothesis. Your hypothesis could itself lead to terrorism or mob rule.
The answer to Q2 is that the question is nonsense. If British Society wants something to be done, it has a perfectly good system in place for it to be done via the ballot box, in which case the action required to be carried out becomes State action under State control, itself under democratic control and within the rule of law.

Hi Andrew (173)

Good point about oil tankers, much like when the oil eventually runs out in 30+ years (or before is usage in emerging economies continues to rise)

Ref ' failure to delivery' should have read failure to deliver i.e. the differences between what government says will happen & how such words unfurls out on the ground.

My two pennies worth, ref what you call 'realpolitik conspiracy theories' which scenario is more worrying and/or more likely:

[1] a deliberate 'behind the scenes agenda' by international players - any & all macro/micro decisions & impact attributed to a grand plan (complex & requires massive synchronicity)

[2] world is as it is due too the nature of people - a number of disparate policies & actions juggled around by national government & agencies & other players- occasionally colliding (little coordination of effort *)

* allegiance & treaties made, but rarely pan out as expect in the medium to long run, only relevant in the short term.

I prescribe to No 2 & find that reality far more alarming (with an eye to be mindful to 'grand plans' & the ambitions/greed/flaws of men)

Ref liberal left & supposed 'intelligentsia' my gripe about their culpability with the long awaited cultural fracturing/breakdown in the UK -can be found in #99 & #115

Ref impasses ref Islamic Extremism & Muslims Communities in the UK is that the maintenance of the 'status quo' by way of cultural divisions, is not an option.

History of these islands clearly demonstrates that British Society itself does not stand by & allow threats to go unchallenged, fair play, accommodation/understanding will only be extended so far, esp when applied to those who reject liberties & freedoms of our progressive democratic society & instead turn to violence to 'attempt' to blackmail & dictate change - something that has never worked (esp by non indigenous ideals & emergent communities).

Hence besides tactical response by UK to Islamic Extremism via addressing terrorist actions, we have to concentrate of strategies to combat the cause of such cultural division & impasse i.e. the major failure of 30+ years integration & assimilation (some noted exception but too few in number) by emergent Muslim communities into British Society. The age range, profession & education of aspiring suicide bombers proves this.

vikingar

The United Kingdom. Love it or leave it.

Hi,

The current hysteria we are seeing about air travel security is quite extraordinary. Hasn't it ever crossed the minds of these security services that it would be very easy for any terrorist to plough a cement mixer filled to the brim with explosives into those thousands of people that queue up outside airport terminals or detonate bags inside just before the security checks? Iraq is crawling with troops and they can't even prevent such attacks. Who believes any of those stories we hear about so-called terrorists trying to board planes with complex bomb devices when there is just a simple and more effective alternative??

It was, until this latest wave of hysteria, very easy to board with hand-language that contained knives.

These checks are just window-dressing because politicians have to be seen to be doing something.

It all is pretty laughable.

Hi, Mike (178)
The airport checks might well be "window-dressing" but the windows are dressed in this way to reassure passengers and remove possible weaponry. Whether you think that it is done to make politicians look better or done to make passengers safer, or feel safer, is a matter of perspective.
It would be very easy in theory for a terrorist to do the things you say, but reality might prove a little different. The logistical difficulties of organising a cement mixer full of explosives without attracting attention in the UK are actually quite difficult, and getting one into the optimum position to kill thousands of people is the reason why there are policemen with machine guns all over the place - it's difficult to manoevre a truck when you have been turned into a colander. I have no doubt that the security personnel are not only aware of the possibility, but have examined it in some depth.
Which facts explain why a handful of people, each carrying a couple of ounces of ingredients with which to bring down an airliner, are presently being sought because despite your cynicism, it's technically attractive to terrorists and thus believable.
In Iraq, the country has little rule of law, little effective security awareness due to the tribal propensities of the residents, huge numbers of criminals taking advantage of the chaos, large numbers of lunatic bombers and copious amounts of high explosives with unrestricted access.

Hi John Nash (174)

Q.1 - in an ideal world. But not when the Brit mainstream get suitably frustrated not only at instances of terrorism, motives of such terrorist but the type of terrorist atrocity (even IRA played to some basic rules, Islamic Terrorists do not).

I do not desire 'mob rule' but imagine a Beslan-esque terrorist atrocity or attack on nuclear facility or mass casualties from crude chem/bio/rad bomb against the British public. Islamic Terrorists go for soft targets, more so as security gets tighter.

Q.2 - there are adequate systems/agencies in place, when there are seen to work & have time & direction & resources to act. But I am talking about public response in the aftermath of such an terrorist event as above.

In this instance, the public will be directly responding to:

- fellow British citizens (biting the hand that feeds analogy) who had choose to side with foreign twisted interpretation of Islamic ideals - being supported by significant elements of Muslim Community (24% by the last poll agreed with methods & aims of July bombers, so out of 1.6 million Muslims mean just under 400,00 British Muslim in that mindset)

- British Muslim community, which continues to fail to awaken to acknowledge failures in their communities (assimilation & integration) & instead looks to blame:

1) British Foreign policy (if that was ever an excuse); 'perceived' injustices abroad;

2) bang on about rights of empathy for deaths of fellow Muslims abroad * (based on association by religion) despite little geographic ties or actual first hand experience of such areas.

* reality check to counter that dated & inaccurate assumption - indeed globally more Muslim kill more Muslims that anyone else - e.g. in Iraq for the latest update www.iraqibodycount.com - the Sunni v Shia conflict predated the formation of the USA & even Brit Empire, let alone recent history.

Once the dust literally settles on such a Terrorist Atrocity, the status quo ref cultural tolerances, will have been severely strained if not broken period, in respect to Muslims & Non Muslims in the UK.

The British Public will not have truck with those carrying out these acts, those supporting such acts, those denying the problem in their ranks or with people (liberal left/intelligentsia) who deny the nature of the problem, despite evidence to the contrary.

My argument is the paramount need for action beforehand. The government needs to make the changes necessary to ensure the British mainstream society feels that credible efforts are being made.

There is a distinction between credible government action before the next terrorist atrocity, where public has seen/felt the efforts of the state to address not only the threat but the causes of the threat.

The alternative is little/no credible response by government, a terrorist atrocity occurs & the public feels they have been consistently let down in the face of overwhelming evidence of incompetence, intransigence & dishonesty by various parties. They will feel unprotected & regrettably parts of our society will respond.

When roused, the lion both roars & bites.

BTW - ref your #25 an interesting post. Agree with #68, #81 bang on, #86 hear hear :)

vikingar

Hi Vikingar (175),
This webpage is getting pretty long now - we might be the stragglers at end of the party!

> like when the oil eventually runs
> out in 30+ years (or before is
> usage in emerging economies continues to rise)

exactly. Whilst the Greg Palasts of the world argue oil supply is being kept artificially low, so prices are high (e.g. by shutting down corroded pipelines at opportune moments!), I'm increasingly sympathetic to the 'peak oil' arguments. Sweden seems to have got its act together with The Commission on Oil Independence. You'd think, with British inventiveness and ingenuity, we could build huge tidal generators or something, to power the entire country (and charge hydrogen fuel cells for high-density energy usage, like transport) for the next century!

anyway, you wrote,
"My two pennies worth, ref what you call 'realpolitik conspiracy theories' which scenario is more worrying and/or more likely:
[1] a deliberate 'behind the scenes agenda' by international players - any & all macro/micro decisions & impact attributed to a grand plan (complex & requires massive synchronicity)
[2] world is as it is due to the nature of people - a number of disparate policies & actions juggled around by national government & agencies & other players- occasionally colliding (little coordination of effort *)
* allegiance & treaties made, but rarely pan out as expect in the medium to long run, only relevant in the short term."

I can understand why you prescribe to No.2. Under these exact two choices, so would I. If I could rewrite No.1, I'd take out the bit about 'any & all macro/micro decisions & impact attributed to a grand plan', and replace it with something like, 'Interference by the 'international players' (sounds like a theatre group!) at strategic moments of their choosing (not always successful, ie. subject to No.2), financed from trillion dollar ill-gotten funds at their disposal'. e.g. As an aside, I admit there's a big question over the sustainability of a grand plan, especially over generations; it'd have to be of systemic permanence, rather than sustained by individual motivation or familial ties. btw: I'm aware of the argument (not made by you, thankfully) that anyone who belives in a grand plan is just taking mental refuge from the overcomplexity of real life.

Having redefined No.1, I'd then subscribe to a world-view combining both No.1 and No.2 - and whilst I find it a close call, I agree that No.2 is scarier, considering the chaos and mistakes made by humans dealing with a massively overcomplex situations.

> History of these islands clearly demonstrates
> that British Society itself does not stand by
> & allow threats to go unchallenged

heartily agreed

not sure which one of us Little RichardJohn was mumbling about (176). possibly me, considering his comment was 'paranoid nonsense' :) if it was, I'm not sure where he got the idea that I make money from 'paranoid nonsense'. anyway, have to go, I'm being scanned by alien-technology satellites, and the kettle's just finished boiling.

Hi John Nash,

I also said:

I have been to Gatwick airport a number of times over recent months and could only see security personnel inside the terminals. I also saw thousands of people queue up at the security gates where a suicide bomber could easily detonate a bomb unchallenged.

Why take the risk of going through those checks when there are easy targets there in their hundreds?

I repeat what I say about knives and boarding with them. I have seen this happen and it is very easy to do.

Hi, Vikingar (180)
I hear you, I hear you. My point is that we have to act within the democratic framework of our system, because that is what we are defending (rather than attacking various shades of people as others here seem to think).
If there is a terrorist atrocity (God forbid), most civilians will probably run around like headless chickens being chased by Fergal Keane and his boiled sweet on his camera, while our military planners will sit down to do something else.
Our military planners will then ask our political representatives what WE (the people) want to have done, and THEN and only then, can we make a considered, democratic and humane decision to nuke seven kinds of turkey droppings out of someone else.
What we can't do is go rampaging around like a herd of rabid wildebeests, attacking UK citizens who happen to be brown skinned, olive skinned or devout followers of various religions.
It's very slow, very cumbersome and not as exciting as burning the local mosque, temple, synagogue, chapel, McDonalds or whatever, but that is the system we have chosen after making lots of mistakes in the past, measured by looking for the greatest good for the greatest number.

"Terry Gillham's Brazil" anyone?

I feel I'm more likey to be killed or shot by one of our twitchy fingered security forces than a real terrorist.

The government cannot stop terrorsts. Even Israel with its 50 foot wall around its borders isn't immune to them. I'm afriad the only long term answer is either for us to live in fear or to tackle the root causes of terrorism.

I think if the west started to solve the worlds problems of poverty, diesease and ignorance and stopped causing them we would have a lot more people on our side rarther than against it.

On the bright side.. Did you know that statisticly your far more likey to die in a car crash than be killed in a terror attack or "accidently" by a trigger happy member of the "so called" security forces.

So rejoice..

Dweller #184

UK armed forces & security forces hardly 'twitchy' a couple of instances does not make for widespread unprofessional ism. Try comparing gun stats of foreign security services :)

Ref root causes of poverty very relevant when applied to abroad, it鈥檚 a good idea & highly relevant.

But when applied to emergent terrorism in UK as a way of explaining domestic Islamic terrorism at bit flawed.

These actual/potential/thwarted British terrorists are 2nd/3rd generations of emergent British Muslim communities, often from stable backgrounds. Who then decided to attack the progressive society that gave their families a home (when many others would not), it ain't cricket.

The cause of British domestic Islamic terrorism (a branch of Islamofascism), emanates from failure of integration/assimilation by British Muslim communities over the last 30+ years (where numbers have increased from tens of thousands to 1.6 million).

Look to the age, range, professions & backgrounds of such terrorists - a cross section or what, as the latest generation of their communities, proof indeed of such failure to integrate.

The liberal left had its hand in the failure of integration/assimilation see #99 & #115 from the 1960s onwards.

That failure, now manifest in British society, is at the root cause & now its amplified by several other 'perception' based arguments (again which liberal left has a direct hand in):

- 'injustices' abroad ('enemies of Islam' against Muslims abroad)
- the desire by some Muslim to wish to empathise with complete strangers on the other side of the world (linked supposedly by religion)
- hatred of other nations/causes
- aspects of government policy.

A perception by which liberal left & supposed 'intelligentsia' have only been too willing to maintain, given their own agenda/inability to be mindful of blurring of lines in pursuit of their aims/goals (such as during anti-war coalition activities). This blurring aided those look to recruit terrorists amongst those vulnerable to such approach in British Muslim communities.

Various left based organisations & some sections of liberal left/supposed 'intelligentsia' also share the same enemies as Islamofascism:

- The US
- Israel
- Capitalism
- The West

Ref the old car crash analogy, only works if the driver does not volunteer to go out with the deliberate intention of killing his passengers, other road users & pedestrians :)

vikingar

"yeah, but no, but yeah, but no...oh - my - god ! i sooo can't believe you just said that, shut up, you don't even know what you're talking about"

...why, you ask ?

well, it seems to me that our government, like the conservatives before them, has achieved a political 'vicky pollard', whether by accident or design, they have alienated most of the population, much of the scepticism stems from labour sleaze, tory sleaze, and copious lorryloads of verbal crap from their mouths "40 minutes" and similar implausible fables, patently, the painting of red over blue signalled bugger all change at the sharp pointy end, the horny quarter and the money slot of downing street

the horn is really none of ours, but the sharp pointy bits and filthy lucre are very much in the domain to displease the electorate at the very least

and so, "the kaliedescope has been shaken, the pieces are in flux", still think that vicky pollard reference so ridiculous ? through this, (ahem), "kaleidescope in flux" (perhaps if you put the sodding thing down for a minute tones ?) we see glimpses of the great lie of modern british politics, that it doesn't matter if you vote jack johnson, or john jackson, it's all the same rubbish in the end

and when there are apparently only daily mail hunks (both wannabe tory, and tory wannabes) remaining in the world, as is clearly confirmed by the constant firing of newspaper rhetoric at anyone who attempts to air their own opinion "leftie", "liberal", "tory", "mary", what are the millions of people who can think beyond these simplistic tribal rantings supposed to do but get sceptical ? i mean, no-one's listening are they ?

in continuing parallel with vicky pollard, we are meant to be scared, whilst awestruck and confused by the type of thing we're being confronted with

...cynical ? me ?

"anyway don't listen to her 'cos she's gone all lezzy"

I took liquid bought outside the airport on to a Ryanair plane this Tuesday. The airport was Berlin Brandenburg, the bottle was a coke bottle, and it was carried through security in full view of personnel. Once at my destination, Stansted, I could easily have walked into the "Connecting flights" area with the bottle. And, given that it's permissible to have in your posession coke bottles etc purchased on the "airport side", how are UK security personnel supposed to spot the difference?

Yet again, the DoT's security hysteria delivers little genuine protection against the determined terrorist, but delivers lots of inconvenience to the UK's travelling public.

I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, BUT THIS INFORMATION ABOUT BIN LADEN'S DEATH COULD BE AMEAN'S OF SOME TYPE OF ORDER. MAYBE IT'S A TYPE OF CODE FOR HIS FOLLOWER'S OR SOMETHING. WHAT DOES EVERYONE ELSE THINK?

Now we know why Hezbolah captured the two Israeli soldiers. So that when they go to overthrow the government of Lebanon the Israelis will be blocked by the UN FORCE IN southern Lebanon.

Now we know why Hezbolah captured the two Israeli soldiers. So that when they go to overthrow the government of Lebanon the Israelis will be blocked by the UN FORCE IN southern Lebanon.