´óÏó´«Ã½

Multiculturism. Islam and back to the veil issue. The Immam on tv news this pm said religion takes precedence over anything else. Well, not in the UK - when we threw off foreign religious control since the Reformation. then it was rome. Now there is a danger it will be Mecca, Medina and Shariah law. Turning the clock back. The "veil" issue is about relationships between males and females, and the assumption in Islam, apparently, that men and women are not to be trusted with each other. What an insult to each!! Women in the West, and in the UK, have fought long and hard to be free to make their own relationships and run their own lives and deal freely with the male sex. Islam and its quest for global domination would turn the clock back, and have us all veiled again! And how is it that women are not allowed in mosques? Isn't this sex discrimination? How does this fit with British culture? We have gotten used to a multiracial society - based on people from the old Commonwealth. Don't confuse this with multiculturalism whereby a significant minority sees its loyalties primarily to centres outside Britain, and beyond the West. In such a situation, there is no "integration" possible - so it becomes, as Blair says, a question of how much we believe in Britain, British values, and British culture. It's time we stood up and were counted. Blair's u-turn is not before time !! Looking at 'Have Your Say' this evening, there are many many people of this opinion !

"Since 2003, some 200,000 people have been killed in Darfur."

Didn't manage to see the programme. Was it mentioned where this figure comes from?

I was appalled that the Darfurian woman who told her story tonight has been refused asylum. It made me really angry to hear the Sudanese diplomat propose that she might be making it up to get asylum. There are widespread reports of gang rape in Darfur and it is disgusting that women are being sent back to that. Is there a campaign to help her get asylum? Even though it is just one person if I could do anything to help her I would like to.

I was appalled that the Darfurian woman who told her story tonight has been refused asylum. It made me really angry to hear the Sudanese diplomat propose that she might be making it up to get asylum. There are widespread reports of gang rape in Darfur and it is disgusting that women are being sent back to that. Is there a campaign to help her get asylum? Even though it is just one person if I could do anything to help her I would like to.

I watched the programme tonight and was particularily interested in the response to Tony Blairs speech today. All I can say it's about time that this was talked about. I moved from Manchester three years ago because I thought and felt like my veiws and opinions were not taken into account, I mean I am only a white woman. I lived in a 'multi cultural' community but the only community that seemed to count for the council was the pakistani community. It didn't matter that afro carribean and white families were moving out in droves. What bothered people most was the segregation and practical cordoning off, of whole streets at a time as members of the same extended family bought one house after the other. The total disregard for planning permission and consent, setting up mosques and schools in houses and hoping that nobody would notice or complain. Not that it mattered that much actually because the council usually gave retrospective planning permission when you did complain. If this is the future of multcultural Britain then you can keep it I'm off just as soon as I have finshed my degree.
I don't care anymore if people think I'm racist, some things are just not right in this day and age and the treatment of women in this community is not acceptable. To have a hands off approach to a cultural or religious group just allows this segregation. So finally well done Tony, about time.

"The international community may finally be getting its act together over Darfur", said Kirsty at the beginning of the piece on Darfur. Where is the evidence that there is any change in international policy toward Darfur?

There are strong words, that is all. The British Government has been speaking strong words for three years, but that does not unsettle Khartoum.

The head of Sudanese Security and Intellegence, Saleh Abdallah Gosh, who organises torture and terror has been treated in British hospitals twice this year with knowldege of the British Government. UN experts said earlier this year that he should be subject to travel bans and have his assets frozen for his role in these atrocities. The British ignored the UN experts. That sums up the UK attitude toward Darfur. Strong words and no action. That is the message we constantly give to the Government of Sudan and until the finger wagging stops and firm action taken, the rape of Darfur will continue.

Dear Newsnight

Thank you for interviewing this very brave woman from Darfur and for Kirsty managing to interview the Sudanese Ambassador without being sick.

I'm sure it is not only the Sudanese Government that would prefer programmes like Newsnight did not cover these despicable crimes, but also perhaps our own Government because it begs the question -why have they done nothing about it?

Most people watching this programme would demand that the UK took the actions needed to stop it. A battalion of British soldiers could have prevented this, but instead because they are poor and Black the UK Government, as with the Congo has left them to be raped and murdered.

It demonstrates to me yet again that the real problem with our democracy is the gap between what the Politicians do and what the People want.

Progress will be made when this gap is narrowed. The Country would have acted to stop this genocide in Darfur 3 years ago, Tony Blair did not.

I have to ask what is the point of the existence of the creatures who govern us and what equips them for leadership. As far as I can see a lot of them are not very bright, are definitely quite weak as individuals and worse of all, in terms of morality, care only for themselves. With this sort of attitude politics will always end in failure.

So they talk instead of Trident 2, rather than how to save millions, how to kill them instead, and continue to use tax expenditures to fund the selling of armaments to the third world while fixing the terms of trade against poorer nations. Meanwhile at home they cut posts in the NHS and ignore the suffering in countries like Darfur while invading countries like Iraq against the advice of the intelligence services, basically to steal their oil. Although this is said so often that perhaps its loses its impact but its sadly true.

The People would demand intervention in Darfur and the Congo, always opposed the invasion of Iraq, would invest more in the NHS, certainly stop patients having to publicly beg for treatment, while scaling down any replacement for Trident.

As for this Woman for Darfur could the Archbishop of York offer her sanctuary in his Cathedral and tell the authorities to push off?

Best Wishes
Bob Goodall

MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD?:

Darfur dead estimated in 2005 beyond 400,000 [1a] [1b]

Muslims groups (& anti war for that matter) claim such outrage & concern for the lives of Muslims globally.

Why then are they so silent on the Islamic Fracticide taking place in Darfur …. murder by the order/command & hand of Muslims on other Muslims [2]

Enlightening Darfur interview revealing terrible allegations … what is the UN position on Darfur [3a] versus Sudanese position [3b]

No wonder why we in the UK have legitimate concerns about yet another example about the level of violence emanating from a religion which is so readily used & hijacked by alleged followers of Islam to murder & kill & conquest, even their own brethren.

BRITISH MUSLIMS:

The 'radicalisation' of British Muslim did not just occur in 2003 (as so many would like to excuse it).

It arrived 'ready to go' in the UK, brought in by the largest wave of Muslim peoples, who arrived in the UK from 1960's onwards (increasing the existing Islamic population from tens of thousands to 1.6 million by 2006

What may have been considered 'the norm' in the 3rd World countries & areas where these people came from, is most definitely 'radical' in comparison to the shared norms & cultural values of progressive democratic societies, esp those in the west.

Separatist communities enable fundamentalism, radicalisation & extremism …… leading to terrorism (not the other way around)

Multiculturalism enabled this separatism to continue & the gagging nature of encroaching PC & 'right on' agenda prevented open & honest discussion, which would have prevented such self cultural ghettoising.

These communities are now getting 40+ years worth of backdated criticism, deservedly so since uncriticised & largely left to their own devices, they have sired domestic terrorists fuelled by a fanatical belief in a twisted interpretation of non-indigenous faith & sub culture.

SUMMARY:

A doable solution - if British Muslim women were fully emancipated & not so willingly oppressed by their communities, perhaps we would see a different face of British Islam & a different pace on integration with the host society that gave such peoples a home (when many others would not).

btw - Blair somewhat feeble/ironic back tracking on failings of 'Multiculturalism' predictable, but he had to throw the discredited Liberal Left a life line :)

But to be utterly clear, the root causes of UK's biggest societal challenge (failings in its Muslim Communities) started in 1960's not in 2003.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a]
[1b]
[2]
[3a]
[3b]

The oft-quoted statement that "Muslims should integrate" is unfortunately devoid of all notion of the essence of social integration. The nature of social dynamics within informal relations (eg at work) is the result of the sum-total of our individual responses to the demands that the objective of multi-ethnic integration puts on us. But resistance to integration can and does come from individuals or groups of different origins. Sadly there appears to have been, for quite a while, a dispropoportionate focus on Muslims on whom the onus for "British community integration" is brutally and unfairly laid. If the issue of ,say, "institutional racism" is not considered a problem just because it is not within government powers to resolve, then we have to accept the sad inevitability of the radicalisation of those (White, Black, Muslim, non-Muslim...) at the receiving end of it. Perhaps Mr. Blair would not object if the "Pakistani and Bangladeshi" youth took on a particular Atheististic or secular radical ideology. But this is in short supply, not to say extinct, (except BNP?).
Are his fears of Islam (rather a particular strand of Islam) justified? The ´óÏó´«Ã½ report makes allusion to the Deobandi tradition as being responsible for the behaviour of the 7/7 killers. I am astounded. There must be another explanation, for I can sense similarities among the British-born 7/7 killers, football hooligans and the British invaders of foreign countries in their attitudes towards others. Is it something to do with our upbringing? May be.

The democratic and liberal tradition, rather than suppressing ideas, favours the growth of ideas so that the people (with whom power is supposed to rest) can have the best possible choice. Therefore this apparent paranoia about Islam is not justified. But Mr. Blair is speaking as a Christian and leader of a Christian country , and we know how passionate he is about the values he cherishes. ( I have so far tried to avoid mentioning Iraq, but the connection seems inescapable!)

The oft-quoted statement that "Muslims should integrate" is unfortunately devoid of all notion of the essence of social integration. The nature of social dynamics within informal relations (eg at work) is the result of the sum-total of our individual responses to the demands that the objective of multi-ethnic integration puts on us. But resistance to integration can and does come from individuals or groups of different origins. Sadly there appears to have been, for quite a while, a dispropoportionate focus on Muslims on whom the onus for "British community integration" is brutally and unfairly laid. If the issue of ,say, "institutional racism" is not considered a problem just because it is not within government powers to resolve, then we have to accept the sad inevitability of the radicalisation of those (White, Black, Muslim, non-Muslim...) at the receiving end of it. Perhaps Mr. Blair would not object if the "Pakistani and Bangladeshi" youth took on a particular Atheististic or secular radical ideology. But this is in short supply, not to say extinct, (except BNP?).
Are his fears of Islam (rather a particular strand of Islam) justified? The ´óÏó´«Ã½ report makes allusion to the Deobandi tradition as being responsible for the behaviour of the 7/7 killers. I am astounded. There must be another explanation, for I can sense similarities among the British-born 7/7 killers, football hooligans and the British invaders of foreign countries in their attitudes towards others. Is it something to do with our upbringing? May be.

The democratic and liberal tradition, rather than suppressing ideas, favours the growth of ideas so that the people (with whom power is supposed to rest) can have the best possible choice. Therefore this apparent paranoia about Islam is not justified. But Mr. Blair is speaking as a Christian and leader of a Christian country , and we know how passionate he is about the values he cherishes. ( I have so far tried to avoid mentioning Iraq, but the connection seems inescapable!)

"Liked your speech Mr Blair"(& I'm a Tory).... but why the u-turn now?. Your party has pampered /fawned et al the Muslims over the years, seemingly paying little heed to that small minority that are radicalised & very dangerous in the UK..... BUT who cares about Politicians changing minds!!.. can we now move on in unison?
BUT ,that small group are still there & very active, as your security services are telling you/us. The big question remains... just how do we isolate that small group without spreading their rants & sympathies to a majority of Muslims that are against their views on violence & rhetoric as at present?
It has nothing to do with being impoverished! ..other faiths have made their way & prospered in Britain despite starting from the bottom of the pile. As the PM said in his speech,embrace MULTICULTURALISM , albeit prefer INTEGRATION or whatever ... embrace Britishness & prosper... become a full partner in the UK .
BUT Mr Blair..... go that extra mile... legally outlaw the ideology of SHARIA LAW that fanatical Muslims wish to impose in the UK( & reportedly is the driving force behind Islamic fanaticism)
If those few that wish the LAW so desperately ... believe we will never quash their mindsets ?.....BUT do know that it opposes every British principle , therefore &
I paraphrase the PM ,if you do not accept our principles move to another country that believes in such.... or change your views...& be very welcomed.

The oft-quoted statement that "Muslims should integrate" is unfortunately devoid of all notion of the essence of social integration. The nature of social dynamics within informal relations (eg at work) is the result of the sum-total of our individual responses to the demands that the objective of multi-ethnic integration puts on us. But resistance to integration can and does come from individuals or groups of different origins. Sadly there appears to have been, for quite a while, a dispropoportionate focus on Muslims on whom the onus for "British community integration" is brutally and unfairly laid. If the issue of ,say, "institutional racism" is not considered a problem just because it is not within government powers to resolve, then we have to accept the sad inevitability of the radicalisation of those (White, Black, Muslim, non-Muslim...) at the receiving end of it. Perhaps Mr. Blair would not object if the "Pakistani and Bangladeshi" youth took on a particular Atheististic or secular radical ideology. But this is in short supply, not to say extinct, (except BNP?).
Are his fears of Islam (rather a particular strand of Islam) justified? The ´óÏó´«Ã½ report makes allusion to the Deobandi tradition as being responsible for the behaviour of the 7/7 killers. I am astounded. There must be another explanation, for I can sense similarities among the British-born 7/7 killers, football hooligans and the British invaders of foreign countries in their attitudes towards others. Is it something to do with our upbringing? May be.

The democratic and liberal tradition, rather than suppressing ideas, favours the growth of ideas so that the people (with whom power is supposed to rest) can have the best possible choice. Therefore this apparent paranoia about Islam is not justified. But Mr. Blair is speaking as a Christian and leader of a Christian country , and we know how passionate he is about the values he cherishes. ( I have so far tried to avoid mentioning Iraq, but the connection seems inescapable!)

Im no longer blogging on here and Im getting rid of my TV. Being forced to pay the licence fee to keep a load of the middle class in a job making programs that they think we should see as at the beginning of the end and thank god for that.

Muslims and integration: As a third generation Muslim with roots in Kashmir and Africa I can say that white-British culture has done very little for me. I tried integrating - it didn't work. Britain has the worst binge drinkers , most teenage pregnancies, debt and obesity in Europe. Thank God my parents instilled Islamic-Asian culture in me! The only thing this country taught me was how to form an orderly queue. And I intend to teach my children the best of both cultures (most of which is from my grandparents' heritage) and not fully integrate into the British underclass culture. Some of you may say 'well why doesn't he get lost and go somewhere else?' well the answer is I look after my parents here - not like my fellow Britains who dump the elderly in residential homes and not thing twice about them. Irony - it's my lack of 'Britishness' that's keeping me here! I'm for integration up to a point, but I'll never lose the lofty values that have been passed down in my heritage - never. Britain needs to improve its culture before it rams it down others.

George Bush has stated many times that "everything changed on 9/11". Now we have Tony Blair telling us that everything changed because of 7/7.

It's funny then that Bush stalled the 9/11 Commission for 3 years and even when the commission was complete they refused to look into who funded 9/11. Strange that because I seem to recall that in murder cases that if you pay a hitman you are just as culpable for the crime. Bush's mini-me (Tony Blair) also refuses to properly investigate the British version of 9/11.

Maybe it's just pure luck that they have both reaped an enormous amount of political capital and leverage from these two catastrophic events.

Ref Abu Khadijah #14

- "The only thing this country taught me was how to form an orderly queue"

Hardly an unimportant societal attribute …. reflective of so much more [1a] [1b] [1c] [1d] [1e]

Some argue its an underlying indication of a stable & sophisticated society (confidence of waiting for your turn/food etc) others disagree [2a] [2b]

- "...I look after my parents here - not like my fellow Britain's who dump the elderly in residential homes and not thing twice about them"

As to the treatment of elderly relatives (much could be done to improve their lot in this 1st world society, during their twilight years).

But some cultures (esp within our Muslim Communities) suppress their women from birth until death.

Such a negative reality its hardly negated/pardoned by the fact that elderly relatives * may live with their families (esp as we can only guess which 'gender in eternal servitude' has to look after them).

* as the first one's who arrived here, not unreasonable to suppose family assets in their name (home, business etc)

- "I tried integrating - it didn't work"

Q. what was the extent of the effort & for how long, why did it 'fail'?

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a]
[1b]
[1c]
[1d] /dna/actionnetwork/A2802999
[1e]
[2a] /radio4/factual/thinkingallowed_20050413.shtml
[2b]

This whole discussion about British values is in danger of being far too simplistic. Not all indigenous Brits drink alcohol and not all people from a muslim culture are teetotal (for instance).

Some Scots and Welsh people don't support the English cricket/football/rugby team, so what?

As long as people go about their business without interfering in other people's lives and keep within the law, that's good enough for me.

I live in an area with quite a few muslim people, none of them tell me what to do or interfere in my life, and why should they?

Vikingar : - I played rugby often when I was young, unlike my asian peers who were more interested in cricket. Consequently, I developed white friends, went to pubs with them (I didn’t drink) and mixed in quite well. Only, it’s when you enter adulthood you see the reality of things and realise what’s best for you. I see my culture not as Asian, but as British, Asian-British. Rather like the Chiken Tikka Masala I am the best of both worlds. But most of me is Islamic-Asian. I feel the current crisis has more to do with the confusion of white Britons – and who they are, than it has with Asian Muslims whose identity is quite defined. And as for women, you’ve obviously got a lot to learn about Islam. Yes some Muslims may subjugate women, that’s despicable, but so do many working class white families wherein a strong patriarchal tradition still exists. Like I said, I agree with integrating to common values, and I love the British but I think I can choose which culture’s best for me. I agree some Asians must do more to integrate, but they came here under the pre-text that they were free to practise their religion – as they liked. It’s not fair for us to move the goal posts now. And by the way, terrorists are very fluent in English and are usually (apparently) well integrated. Is all this not a red herring?

S a l a a m ( p e a c e )

Your question: Q. what was the extent of the effort & for how long, why did it 'fail'? - a good question.

I suppose it was a combination of many things : not fitting in no matter how much I tried, seeing the bad family situations in white families and thinking 'not me, never', having the privelige of choosing the best of both worlds.

Abu Khadijah you wrote: " Britain has the..... , most teenage pregnancies,"

Actually that is not the case. The most teenage pregnancies and also sadly child pregnancies occur in the third world, including Muslim countries where men marry mere children. In Iran the mullahs when they took over in 1979 changed the marriage age for girls from 18yrs to 9yrs! In Afghanistan there is a saying, "better a girl has her first bleed in her husband's home than in her father's home." These poor girls are married of at 8,9,or 10 years of age into sexually active marriages with adult men. In Northern, Muslim, Nigeria you can marry a child of 6yrs and have a sexually active marriage with her,(see Charlotte Metcalf's Book, "Walking away:A film Makers Journey through Africa.")

The physical suffering, the damage this does to these children is unspeakable. No one ever seems to criticise it from here in the West, or anywhere else, not the churches, not the synagogues, not any mosques, because these little girls are men's wives, unlike the few 100 western teenagers who have the gaul to do it alone and insult the proprietorial dignity of patriarchy.

Lets not deceive ourselves, there is no concern for the well being of teenage girls in all this hyped up indignation, it's the male pride that is being outraged here.

Don't ever get on your religious high horse over teenage pregnancies again because the hypocrisy involved in this specious indignation stinks.

vikingar,

You said: "But some cultures (esp within our Muslim Communities) suppress their women from birth until death."

Suppressing or oppressing women is not an Islamic teaching. The fact that some Muslims mistreat their women does not necessarily mean that Islam teaches that. In fact, it is the culture and traditions of the various muslim groups that this is connected to - remember, Muslims come from all ethnic groups and over 200 nationalities.

For example, in my own ethnic people (East African origin), male domination (patriarchial society)was endemic. Genital mutilation in its severe form was the norm. Feminist and human rights groups quickly associated this with Islam. Yet, this was a tradition practised for over a thousand years by my people and it pre-dated Islam.

Similarly, the practise that has so widely recieved publicity in the UK in which South Asian Muslims are accused of forced marriages, 'honour killings' e.t.c., has nothing to do with Islam but cultures of those from these countries. The ruling of Islam on forced marriages is well known. It is about the only thing that you are allowed to differ with your parents apart from faith. The edict of Islam on killing couldn't be much clear as well: "Taking one life is like you have taken the whole of humanity, and saving one life, is like you saved the whole of humanity".

The West has the highest rates of domestic violence and rape against women, teenage pregnancies, phedophiles etc. yet we do not associate this with Christianity. In other words, the people who do this things do them not because they are Christians, but because they are just 'warped' people. To the contrary, Christianity like Islam, has strongly forbidden these acts.

Also, you only seem to single out Muslims in regards to everything. On the issue in discussion, I am sure you will not flag out infanticide of girls practised by a certain culture!

I do sympathise with you and many like yourself because your are innocently or not a victim of misinformation - which seems to be deeply ingrained in your blood, and resulted in your deep hate for Islam and Muslims.

But if you care for the truth, and have an open mind, in this day and age, you can chose to educate yourself and understand 'others' better rather than engage in a campaign based on ignorance.

Mahmud Ibrahim wrote:
"The West has the highest rates of domestic violence and rape against women, teenage pregnancies, phedophiles etc. yet we do not associate this with Christianity. In other words, the people who do this things do them not because they are Christians, but because they are just 'warped' people. To the contrary, Christianity like Islam, has strongly forbidden these acts."

Again you are misguided in your concept of the West and indeed of your own culture.

These atrocities against women and girls are fundamentally patriarchal. They have occurred in all cultures at one time or another to a greater or lesser degree. However, w all know religions uphold male self interest they are the holding banks for the preservation of the dictates that men make for their own benefit.

Muslim religious cultural practices do indeed vary form country to country, and even within a country. However, I am not concerned with what Islam might be in its purity or indeed any other religion. I am interested in what men DO to women whatever their justification for it, and it is usually justified through religious dictates, many horrific acts of sexual violence are committed in the name of one religion or another. It therefore remains the responsibility of other Muslims and Christians, etc. to point out that fgm, "honour" killings, force marriages are wrong. Polygamy hardly contributes to the dignity and self respect of a woman. These acts of male self interest must be first acknowledged for what they are then addressed.

If you continue to turn a blind eye to the things that you are responsible for you will not be able to put them to rights. Consider your claim that paedophilia is rampant in the West. The truth is that it is rampant in men everywhere and Muslim men are no exception. At least in the West we have faced this fact, although not well enough in my opinion, but we have labelled it as paedophila and made it a criminal offence. In most Muslim countries it is simply called marriage! See my post above about the number of young girls who are used as wives for grown men who ought to know better. We had a Muslim woman in one of the mbs claiming that there was no rape in Egypt, well she was correct because in Egypt no women would dare report such a thing. In many Muslim countries where there is sharia law women are punished for being raped. The rape figures in this country are only tip of the iceberg, but there are so many because women are getting up the courage to report these things, unlike women in countries like Pakistan where rape is used frequently to punish women. Porn in the West is openly indulge in sadly, but in the East it's till under cover, no pun intended, that doesn't mean it's any the less indulged in by men. You may kid yuorself but please don't think it fools me or any men and women with their eyes open. Pole dancing is available not more than 100 yards from the main Mosque in Baghdad, we have been informed by a Muslim male blogger, and it's well attended by the local imams. Google "Iran sex slavery" and find out what Muslim men do, at least you hare that in common with any Western males in your 'need' for sexual gratifcation without the need to commitmnent, if only you would admit it.

Mahmud Ibrahim wrote:
"The West has the highest rates of domestic violence and rape against women, teenage pregnancies, phedophiles etc. yet we do not associate this with Christianity. In other words, the people who do this things do them not because they are Christians, but because they are just 'warped' people. To the contrary, Christianity like Islam, has strongly forbidden these acts."

Again you are misguided in your concept of the West and indeed of your own culture.

These atrocities against women and girls are fundamentally patriarchal. They have occurred in all cultures at one time or another to a greater or lesser degree. However, w all know religions uphold male self interest they are the holding banks for the preservation of the dictates that men make for their own benefit.

Muslim religious cultural practices do indeed vary form country to country, and even within a country. However, I am not concerned with what Islam might be in its purity or indeed any other religion. I am interested in what men DO to women whatever their justification for it, and it is usually justified through religious dictates, many horrific acts of sexual violence are committed in the name of one religion or another. It therefore remains the responsibility of other Muslims and Christians, etc. to point out that fgm, "honour" killings, force marriages are wrong. Polygamy hardly contributes to the dignity and self respect of a woman. These acts of male self interest must be first acknowledged for what they are then addressed.

If you continue to turn a blind eye to the things that you are responsible for you will not be able to put them to rights. Consider your claim that paedophilia is rampant in the West. The truth is that it is rampant in men everywhere and Muslim men are no exception. At least in the West we have faced this fact, although not well enough in my opinion, but we have labelled it as paedophila and made it a criminal offence. In most Muslim countries it is simply called marriage! See my post above about the number of young girls who are used as wives for grown men who ought to know better. We had a Muslim woman in one of the mbs claiming that there was no rape in Egypt, well she was correct because in Egypt no women would dare report such a thing. In many Muslim countries where there is sharia law women are punished for being raped. The rape figures in this country are only tip of the iceberg, but there are so many because women are getting up the courage to report these things, unlike women in countries like Pakistan where rape is used frequently to punish women. Porn in the West is openly indulge in sadly, but in the East it's till under cover, no pun intended, that doesn't mean it's any the less indulged in by men. You may kid yuorself but please don't think it fools me or any men and women with their eyes open. Pole dancing is available not more than 100 yards from the main Mosque in Baghdad, we have been informed by a Muslim male blogger, and it's well attended by the local imams. Google "Iran sex slavery" and find out what Muslim men do, at least you have that in common with any Western males in your 'need' for sexual gratifcation without the need to commitmnent, if only you would admit it.

Pippop,

You wrote:

"It therefore remains the responsibility of other Muslims and Christians, etc. to point out that fgm, "honour" killings, force marriages are wrong."

I agree with you entirely on this point. But to say that these things happen in Muslim societies because religion tells us to is totally unfounded.

And that is my fundamental point in (21) above. Rather, as you rightly pointed out, it is inherent in male domination regardless of one's faith whether in the West or the East.

Abu Khadijah #18

R U the Abu Khadijah responsible for any of these other postings

- Post #88 the Newsnight thread about Hitz but Tahrir [1a]
- In Defence of Sheikh Humood al-'Uqla [1b] *

* esp all of the last four paragraphs.

Ref the points you raised in #18 I refer to pippop #20 - mine would have been a similar reply, highlighting comparable contradictions.

Ref the your #19 the choice of expression 'seeing the bad family situations in white families' would have not been the consistent answer been 'non Muslim families' or do attribute their failings solely to their skin colour?

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a] /blogs/newsnight/2006/11/tuesday_14_november_2006.html
[1b]

Mahmud Ibrahim you wrote in agreement with me: "Rather, as you rightly pointed out, it is inherent in male domination regardless of one's faith whether in the West or the East."

That is a change of tune form your attempt to trash Western culture and promote your own as superior when you wrote this:
"The West has the highest rates of domestic violence and rape against women, teenage pregnancies, phedophiles etc...."

I hope you have come to understand now that this is not the case, and trashing Western culture because it is open to criticism is somewhat cheap.

When Mr.van Gogh and Ms. Hirsi Ali tried to expose the domestic violence in Muslim culture Mr.Gogh was brutally murdered and Ms. Hirsi Ali is under permanent police protection. When Ms Bhatti tried to expose the sexual violence in Sikh culture there was such a dangerously violent outcry that the play could not be shown. When Monica Ali wrote a very caring thoughtful book about the life of a Muslim woman living in Brick Lane the imams were furious and the filming of the book was aggressively disrupted by Muslim men who demonstrated and blocked Brick Lane making it impossible to film there.

This is very different from the response you are having now after falsely stating that Western culture is this and that negative trash. The response you have had is a long letter form me, so much more civilised than the death threats and aggression shown by those people mentiond above, wouldn't you say! That is what a modern liberal democracy is about.

I do not think that men from any culture can hold their heads up without taking on board the shame of their sexual incontinence. Using women as gatekeepers of this lack of maturity, wrapping them up in yards of cloth, ripping out the genitals of little girls, and slitting the throats of young women, trying to justify it with silly claims that men's sexual needs are greater than women's, etc., etc. it is all rather pathetic, and is no way to get to grips with your own sexual urges. Women are being brutally raped in Darfur, its a human disgrace. At the end of WW2 when Berlin was sacked Russian soldiers marched in and raped every female in sight. Nothing changes. You as men have to change all this and you start by owning it.

I have to say that Western men are trying, largely because we Western women were allowed enough education and voice to expose these men and their double standards. You are still trying to have your cake and eat it. I believe you should respect Western men for the progress they have made in taking responsibility for their sexuality, for that reason alone you have no right to trash them. It would be in the interests of your own women and girls, for their mental and physical well being, if you actually took on the same responsibility yourselves.

This is the 21st century, its time all men faced up to gender violence and addressed it. The gender based power that the men in your culture have enjoyed for so long will have to stop if you are to adjust to a liberal democracy and respect women as autonomous individuals, not wombs on legs for the breeding of your sons and your own sexual gratification. It's a lot to give up, it must be hard after so much privilege. Western men have found it hard too and some cannot adjust. Take pride in your humanity and make a start, join the 21st century's modern liberal democracy.

Mahmud Ibrahim #21

"I do sympathise with you and many like yourself because your are innocently or not a victim of misinformation - which seems to be deeply ingrained in your blood, and resulted in your deep hate for Islam and Muslims"

Before I engage time & energies with a detailed reply …..

R U the Mahmud Ibrahim responsible for any of these other postings

- Post #218 & #230 : the Newsnight thread about Hitz but Tahrir [1a]
- Post #60 : the Newsnight thread about Conspiracy Theories [1b]
- Post #7 : the Newsnight thread about Radical Extremism in British Universities - a reply to #1 [1c]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a] /blogs/newsnight/2006/11/tuesday_14_november_2006.html
[1b] /blogs/theeditors/2006/12/too_much_conspiracy.html
[1c] /blogs/newsnight/2006/11/friday_17_november_2006.html

Hey everybody, let's forget the "my culture's better than yours" competition and ask ourselves why the Blairites like pointing the finger at muslims?

Before the Iraq invasion they were warned that it would increase the terrorist threat to Britain. Recently the American National Intelligence Estimate has confirmed that the invasion and occupation of Iraq has become a "cause celebre" for terrorists and confirmed the increase in terrorism.

Now, let's face it, the Blairites can't admit that they made a mistake and have made this country and the world less safe. So they go on the offensive instead. Good for them but not all of us are buying it.

Hey Rick B. It would be a jolly good idea if you got some facts under your belt and learned some history. The Blairites and the rest of the political Right and the Left, e.g. the SWP et al. in this country have been nurturing radical extremist Muslims for at least 15 years or more.

We did what we thought was a nice little deal with them. We said, covertly of course, 'Don't attack us and we will leave you alone in your little cells across the country." The French thought we were mad and demanded we handed the blighters over, many had come from Algeria but we simply ignored them. We have them here safely under our supervision, we thought, and we would then know what they might get up to. Then they turned round and bit the hand that fed their ideology with its multicultural nonsense.

Please don't be fooled by the Iraq business. I was on that demo and most people there relative to the proportion of Muslims to non-Muslims in this country, most people there were not Muslim at all. I don't know how they can claim the moral high ground over Iraq and ignore Muslim-on-muslim violence that the so called insurgents are carrying out in Iraq and the horrific Muslim-on-Muslim violent obscenity that is Dafur. The argument that it is their indignation over injustices like Iraq, Palestine, etc. is an argument with a hole so big it could absorb every Muslim from east to west and from north to south.

In a nut shell: this radicalisation of Islam began long ago with the toxic affect that Wahabism inflicted on the religion. Eventually the Muslim world began to question things and so began their reformation but sadly they were not up to it and turned from their internal quarrels onto the West. The West not in the least morally pristine itself, should have kept out of this problem they were having but that became difficult when they started to blow things and people up, long before 9/11 at least a decade or more before. We became embroiled, and they then were able to blame the West, at least those who fell for it, for their problems with modernity. The truth is that the Muslim is in fear and dread of loosing his gender based power. One Muslim man summed it up in one sentence on a TV documentary I saw, he said, "You have lost control of your women." Its not Christianity, or Judaism or wars in Palestine or Iraq that they are terrified about, it's secularism, this thing that the West has which liberates women and therefore in their eyes emasculate men. That is what really, really scares the Muslim world, the demise of their gender based power. The secular Westerner has liberated women and that is really, really scary, so much so that it has sent anachronistic imams and failed youths into each others psychosis and produced a massive nihilistic strop, an implosion of rage that has rebounded into a huge explosive temper tantrum.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that this suicidal carnage is the swan song for male hegemony.

Get wised up dear, it will do you know end of good.

Ref Rick B #28

- "Good for them but not all of us are buying it"

Post 911 …...

Better tell the victims of 7th July Bombing in London [1]

Better tell the victims of British Consulate bombing in Turkey [2]

Better tell those in Britain's Muslims communities [3a] [3b] [3c] though maybe there is hope [3d] [3e]

Better tell those British Muslims under investigation for alleged terrorist offences [4a] [4b] [4c]

Better tell the British Muslims already convicted for terrorist related offences [5a] [5b] [5c] [5d] .... & the rest :)

..pssttt …. better tell British Society & its Muslim communities [6]

Not what the Home Secretary believes [7a]

Not what Head of Mi5 believes [7b]

An interesting article [8]

- "…. they made a mistake and have made this country and the world less safe"

Ref my #8 - this country (if not the world) has been 'less safe' since the start of Islamic separatism, radicalisation, extremism leading too domestic terrorism, which in the UK started in 1960's - not the simplistic promotion of the notion of 'it all started since 2003' - too tout that disingenuous argument, belies other agenda :)

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2]
[3a]
[3b]
[3c]
[3d]
[3e]
[4a]
[4b]
[4c]
[5a]
[5b]
[5c]
[5d]
[6]
[7a]
[7b]
[8]

Pippop is right to identify the abuse of women as individuals and as free agents in the community both in the West and in Muslim communities. Martin Amis has said that the best hope for Muslim communities, and for all of us,will come when their women find their voice and can express themselves freely. He and his extended family were brutally damaged by Fred West and his evil abuse of women. In Martin Amis's fiction about 9/11 he puts disgust with women at the heart of that evil act.
All men should hang their heads in shame if the news coming out of Ipswich today reveals that yet more women have been violated and destroyed, as they have been on the Vancouver Pig Farm reported in the Observer this Sunday.
If men want to understand and dig up the roots of their own violence against women they should read some psycho-analytic texts such as those by Sigmund Freud and his daughter Anna, Melanie Klein and the Tavistock Clinic.
Explore the roots of their own anger and greed and understand the myths which feed their infantile desires to control their mothers and sisters and dominate their brothers.
They can walk away from these thinkers, scientists and observers when they want to, when they've learnt something - ( even
though many of these secularists were born Jews).
After that they can turn to the symbolism of religion, or sport, or exploring the universe, join the Army, get married or set a part of themselves off for faith and join a community of faith.
Enlightenment means coming to terms with your own animal nature, not imposing it on others without their consent and accepting a lifetime as a responsible, reasonable individual trying to control it. That is what the West is trying to learn since Rousseau in the 18th century.

Thankyou Pippop and vikingar, I'm well aware of my history. I'm well aware that muslims fundamentalism has been around for a while - I'm aware of the "Londonistan" policy and also that the West helped fund the Mujahideen which formed the basis of the Taliban and al-Qaeda. I'm also aware fo the Bush family and neocons business deals with the bin Laden family and Saudi Royals.

However, I ask my representatives to protect me as a British citizen. Blair by going along with the neocon policies in Iraq has turned the jihadis against Britain. He was warned by MI6 that that is what would happen and anyone with any sense could see that. I preferred it when the jihadis were concentrating on Chechnya or Kashmir not us. I'm not a pacifist or a wishy-washy liberal - I want my govt to protect me, not put me in danger due to some strange ideology led by one of the most unpopular Presidents in American history.

Pippop wrote:

"That is a change of tune form your attempt to trash Western culture and promote your own as superior when you wrote this:"

1. Have I said anything about Western culture being trash and my own being superior in the thread (21) above? I suggest you re-read it again more carefully.

2. I have not changed my tune either. All I said is that oppression of women happen in all cultures including Western. And the official statistics bear me out in the areas I mentioned. Just because I have pointed out these facts, you are complaining that I am suggesting my culture is superior!

3. So, it seems you don't want me to point out the ill-treatment of women in the West while some of you it seems, have a dedicated campaign of maligning muslims with this issue.

4. In fact, the reason we are discussing this issue is because you linked the issue with Islam. And that is why I gave examples in order to draw your attention to what is happenning to women in the West. Is it linked to Christianity? NO. When it involves Muslim women, why are you then, always linking it with Islam? And despite all the facts by me and others to the contrary, you still continue with your fiction.

5. The claim about girls being married-off at the ages of 6-9, is yet another fiction spread by people with a similar mind-set like you but without a corrobrated evidence on the ground. My region of origin has an excellent mix of Muslim ethnic groups, yet I never came accross such a tender age married away by parents. And again, Islam's position is quite clear on this. The age upto 7 is considered infant. The age from 15 is considered mature. Yes, a few may be married-off at 15 and above, but this has something to do with poverty rather than the faith they profess. I challenge you and the likes of vikingar, to a trip to Muslim countries to show me where all these supposedly tender age girls are married! The fact that you might have read alot of malicious literature about these does not make it the truth.

6. But talking about the girl child, have you forgotten that 9-year-old girl in Scotland who became pregnant? or the man who snatched the 2-year-old girl just recently and abused her!? And even as I write, some pervert has killed 3 women prostitutes and it is reported that 1 is missing in Ipswich. But why kill? With the exception of the current case (obviously we don't know yet), the perpetrators were white British male. Did Christianity condone such acts? No. Do such things happen with regularity in Indonesia, Mali, Malaysia, Senegal, Djibouti, Turkey etc. as you would us belief? No.

7. Similarly, recent statistics has highlited disturbing problems in areas such as alcohol abuse, drugs, violence, teenage pregnances, Anti-social Behaviour, rape, etc. both here in the UK, and the West in general.

8. These are the issues, which I believe, both you and me should be concerned with rather than being pre-occuppied with some fictitious Muslim enemy!

Pippop wrote:

"That is a change of tune form your attempt to trash Western culture and promote your own as superior when you wrote this:"

1. Have I said anything about Western culture being trash and my own being superior in the thread (21) above? I suggest you re-read it again more carefully.

2. I have not changed my tune either. All I said is that oppression of women happen in all cultures including Western. And the official statistics bear me out in the areas I mentioned. Just because I have pointed out these facts, you are complaining that I am suggesting my culture is superior!

3. So, it seems you don't want me to point out the ill-treatment of women in the West while some of you it seems, have a dedicated campaign of maligning muslims with this issue.

4. In fact, the reason we are discussing this issue is because you linked the issue with Islam. And that is why I gave examples in order to draw your attention to what is happenning to women in the West. Is it linked to Christianity? NO. When it involves Muslim women, why are you then, always linking it with Islam? And despite all the facts by me and others to the contrary, you still continue with your fiction.

5. The claim about girls being married-off at the ages of 6-9, is yet another fiction spread by people with a similar mind-set like you but without a corrobrated evidence on the ground. My region of origin has an excellent mix of Muslim ethnic groups, yet I never came accross such a tender age married away by parents. And again, Islam's position is quite clear on this. The age upto 7 is considered infant. The age from 15 is considered mature. Yes, a few may be married-off at 15 and above, but this has something to do with poverty rather than the faith they profess. I challenge you and the likes of vikingar, to a trip to Muslim countries to show me where all these supposedly tender age girls are married! The fact that you might have read alot of malicious literature about these does not make it the truth.

6. But talking about the girl child, have you forgotten that 9-year-old girl in Scotland who became pregnant? or the man who snatched the 2-year-old girl just recently and abused her!? And even as I write, some pervert has killed 3 women prostitutes and it is reported that 1 is missing in Ipswich. But why kill? With the exception of the current case (obviously we don't know yet), the perpetrators were white British male. Did Christianity condone such acts? No. Do such things happen with regularity in Indonesia, Mali, Malaysia, Senegal, Djibouti, Turkey etc. as you would us belief? No.

7. Similarly, recent statistics has highlited disturbing problems in areas such as alcohol abuse, drugs, violence, teenage pregnances, Anti-social Behaviour, rape, etc. both here in the UK, and the West in general.

8. These are the issues, which I believe, both you and me should be concerned with rather than being pre-occuppied with some fictitious Muslim enemy!

Ref Mahmud Ibrahim #33

TRAITS:

Your posts across various NN threads demonstrates a very telling trait.

Like many fundamentalists within the Islamic faith, who look to promote a certain side of Islamic communities & followers:

- global brotherhood
- right for global empathy with strangers (bounded by religion)
- right to adhere to religious beliefs in everyday life.
- right to hold beliefs (regardless)

But you go into denial mode ref:

- Islamic fracticide, Muslims killings other Muslims each other in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur etc (esp the continuance of historic Sunni v Shia conflict)

- Muslims communities, living a insular & separatist existence according to faith, are responsible for failings within their communities e.g. abuse, persecution of women etc *

* if adherence to religion can cause positive traits it can equally be responsible for negative ones as well.

LESSONS:

This duality of religion is a lesson the indigenous population of this land know all too well (from our history of religious mistakes & religious persecution).

Whilst the majority of recent arrivals, esp those in Islamic Communities, have yet to learn/acknowledge & thus remain in denial.

I would argue, that being Christian means you don't hide behind your God too excuse your behaviour, attitude & failings, you are accountable for your actions.

SUMMARY:

Unfortunately, we in the UK have learnt that far too many Muslims, look to excuse failings in Islam (as a faith, the ways its practiced & interpreted by communities & individuals).

Too many Muslims would rather believe that its everyone else's fault & would rather embrace & attribute Conspiracy Theories for failings in Islam & their communities & actions by Muslims.

In the modern world, such denial & basic dishonesty, will be the long term undoing of Islam - it refuses too evolve.

No amount of fanaticism, will change that - Islam remains flawed.

vikingar

Mahmud Ibrahim your post 34.

I cannot converse with someone in such a state of denial. Just to highlight one point I made and you deny. You only have to phone Iranian embassy to find out about the marriage age for girls. Sherin Ebadi, Iranian human rights lawyer, has fought under a fatwah for the rights of these little girls to be amended. The official age now for girls to enter sexually active marriages is 13yrs but if one imam and the father agree she can still be married at nine years, this is common practice in the villages. These marriages are not one off event like the one you mentioned in Scotland they are part and parcel of Sharia law in Iran and it amounts to sadistic abuse of little girls.

You keep your head in the sand, but you will, in the end, only manage to alien those of us who seek to maintain our hard won modern liberal democracy.

Ref Mahmud Ibrahim #33

"...challenge you and the likes of vikingar, to a trip to Muslim countries to show me where all these supposedly tender age girls are married! The fact that you might have read alot of malicious literature about these does not make it the truth"

HISTORIC - religious precedent?

Q. "What was Ayesha's age at the Time of Her Marriage to the Prophet ?"

ANS: "it is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad was consummated" [1a] [1b] [1c] [1d] [1e] [1f]

CURRENT:

Muslims in India seem to believe that Islam allows marrying at the age of 12 years old [2]

GLOBAL:

Official? age of consent world wide [3]

SUMMARY:

Again ref my last post - adherence to ANY religion, does not prevent illegal/criminal/negative acts.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a]
[1b]
[1c]
[1d]
[1e]
[1f]
[2]
[3]

I suspect pippop and vikingar is the same person hence this brief joint reply is for both of you:

I too will very soon cease to converse with people with 'tunnel vision'.

'Islamic franticide?' - what about millions of foetuses aborted legally annually in the UK and the West in general? Is this in the Islamic world? Don't these innocent unborn children have the right to life?

Since you have suggested I am a 'fundamentalist', let me also suggest your "telling traits" as you put it:

You are probably not true christians, if you are at all.

You are most likely BNP members,

or hardcore Zionists of some colour - the type that read alot of Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye - followers of Pat Robertson, John Hagee and the likes. For a mind emancipating piece, please read the Rev. Stephen Sizer's: "Christian Zionism: Roadmap to Armageddon?" instead.

Finally, in your unpararelled hate, you have headlessly forgotten to tell us where you will take the more than hundred thousand indigenous muslims in the UK now - perhaps, in the next few decades this number might run into millions?

Will you then evict all native British Muslims?

My hope is for a peaceful world, and a world that is not torn apart by hate-filled people from any race, creed, gender, or whatever..

PEACE! PEACE! PEACE!

See posts:
13th Dec ‘Prostitution Debate’ (ghastly title) post 31
12th Dec ‘Tuesday’s Programme’ posts 48, 68, 86

Hello Abu, Mahmud, pippop and Vikingar.

Our discourses start from completely different philosophical perspectives. As a Westerner, fratricide to me is simply not directly comparable with abortion, and I don’t see my time being productively used arguing that point although I am very happy to argue the complexities of how to move forward from that agreed philosophical standpoint. I fully concur that the established church would also like to see the death of a foetus as directly comparable with the death of a man in a fight but in the West, the secular philosophy has already taken over and it is not negotiable. You can condemn us for our views and you can live according to different beliefs elsewhere but here on our soil the starting point is that the State differentiates between these two types of death. And I’m sorry if you think we have shifted the goalposts. Our way of dealing with ideas that we don’t much like is to ignore them and hope they go away and up till now that strategy has worked reasonably well, arrogant though it is.

Also we don’t really think in terms of ‘true’ Christians. If you read my post 12/12 #68 you will see that I believe that most religions are based on dialectic thought. Christianity is about striving for something, about recognising imperfection, admitting failings. We don’t think in terms of these absolutes (except for the PC fundamentalists). Our world of ideas is much greyer than that and we find it really difficult to deal with people who are so, so sure that they have the one and only ultimate recipe for society.

But to think that we are BNP is really to misunderstand our posts. I should think Vikingar is a bit of nerdy real ale type but I could be completely wrong and apologies Vikingar if I am, but I’m just not getting any sense of fascism from his (assuming – Vikings are after all a very male symbol) excellently referenced and surely time consuming posts. And I don’t see that Pippop is the same person, she has basically said she is female but in any case I don’t know many men who could argue what she has argued so truly magnificently. And their styles of writing are so different – one is factual, referenced, the other prosaic, persuasive.

I just feel as if the Moslem posts endlessly insult us – ‘unparalleled hate’ – where? I don’t hate anyone but I do enjoy philosophical debates. ‘headlessly forgotten’, I think that is a rude thing to say.

‘This number might run into millions’. This is our fear, we really are fighting (verbally) to save what we hold dear and those of us who did not support the PC policies that led us to here, now see that those policies have already given democratic rights to people who ultimately do not agree with that democracy, and for the first time in the West people are saying ‘actually liberal democracy is a vulnerable system that needs to be protected’. That is why the Dutch are thinking seriously about closing the gates to more Moslems. It’s really a serious business. We had a relatively peaceful culture before all this started. At this point in time I would certainly like the government to talk to Moslem councils about the possibility that some disaffected Moslems might be in a position (i.e. have somewhere to go) to relocate voluntarily at our expense. Read my words, I’m not saying ‘you have to go’ or ‘we don’t want you here’; I am saying ‘if you are so unhappy and you do have somewhere else that you could and would like to be then we will foot the bill, in acceptance of our misleading policies’. Why do you think am I spending time on this, blogging? It is because I’m scared for the future of my children and I am British British, I don’t have another homeland that ‘really is in my heart’ to quote from the My Newsnight film ‘London’.

Peaceful world – yes we all want that but we have to have decisions and strategies to get us there we can’t just stand there like Miss World saying ‘I want world peace’.

In post 21 Western culture IS trashed – you called us warped – do you not realise how insulting that word is when used seriously?? (Often one might use the word as a friendly tease but I don’t think that is the case here). If you want to talk about goalposts, the whole PC thing was actually an extremely arrogant belief that even though we paid lip service to other cultural rituals, eventually everyone would want to think like us and that is why the whole State machinery was exposed – we basically said ‘Come on then, no one can really undermine us, we’re too superior’ and you’ve proved us wrong you could and you have undermined our culture.

A long time ago, a newly qualified lawyer friend and I were talking about the English language and I said ‘I hate it when people say borrow when they mean lend’ and she said ‘yeah, I hate it when people say imply when they mean infer’. At the time I did not know what infer meant but I have never forgotten that lesson and I think some of the criticisms levelled against us on this blog are the result of what has been inferred and not what we have implied.

‘I see my culture as Asian British’ – that is the problem and I don’t think we really ever offered that option, what we offered was British Asian instead of just British, which some may say was overly generous and others may say was the least we could do to atone for our colonial past. But I don’t really see why we have to atone for the Crusades – wasn’t that a fairly equal fight? I mean Jesus did come from Jerusalem so not surprisingly we felt territorial about the place, but anyway Vikingar knows more about all that than I do and pippop writes more eloquently, so I’m off for a cuppa! Cheers!!

Ref Jenny #22

In respect of Islamic radical - Mahmud Ibrahim

Yes, a tragic rise in sex trafficking across ME esp Iraq [1a] [1b]

A regrettable trait of human nature thus proving once & for all that attempted adherence/enforcement of ANY religion does lead to the eradication of negative/criminals actions.

i.e. Mahmud Ibrahim et al, whilst the majority of followers of Islam (esp radical/extremists) fail to acknowledge the inherent failures in their religion (like all religions), such injustices will continue to occur & flawed Islam remains unreformed for the 21st Century, with a very poor & limited violent future.

We in the West experience all the world evils at the hands of its own citizens. But thankfully we have developed to the point of criminalising such actions, irrespective of cultural justifications.

Any religion is judged not on it idealistic potential/pros, but its actual track record & current impact on the communities & nations it exists within.

To make it abundantly clear - if Islam is so ideal, why is it so easily & readily high jacked by radicals/extremists/terrorists * & why do so many of its followers justify so many acts the rest of the non Islamic world condemns & regards as anti social, harmful, destructive if not criminal **

* with mainstream followers doing very little in response, other than those who have thankfully assisted the authorities in preventing further terrorist atrocities.

** whether that manifests itself as: murder, kidnapping, rape, torture, abuse & oppression of children, women, homosexuals, non Muslims & others ….. all the way too terrorist acts.

PSE NOTE: well aware that above does not apply 100% too all Muslims, but it applies too far too many in different increments- esp those living separatist lives in progressive democratic societies - hence one of the major contributing factors too the cultural impasse we face in the UK between large elements within 2% of its Muslim population & 98% non Muslims.

SOLUTION:

- enable a cultural emancipation of Muslim women in the UK (for starters)

- assist the minority of integrated Muslims to spread the message of adaptation & integration / assimilation.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a]
[1b]
[2]

Ref Gramsci's gal #39

Wonder if your handle based on this? [1]

The vast majority of British mainstream society I would argue have high expectations of those granted citizenship & a home in the UK, full of opportunity.

Believe its an understandable trait of human nature, to expect those who society has helped, in return such at the very least should make real efforts too complement that society.

Not reject that society, self ghettoise, live in separatist communities & then support domestic / international terrorism (in all of its forms - logistical, actual terrorist acts).

Appreciate your post :)

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]

Its good to visit this blogg because it is the first one I have come accross that discusses the Muslim / British issue without resorting to people abusing and swearing at each other! It is good to have true debate.