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Dear Newsnight

Glad to see you have decided to use this as the lead story. It is a 'people' story about some of our community who have a very tough time of it. I hope that people now have more compassion about those driven to prostitution, and we should do far more to help them, as with others on the margins of society.

We have one life and our Society should help everyone to have the best chance of finding happiness and contentment in it. We should help anyone struggling in life.

Perhaps two other stories lead from this; are the need for a compulsory DNA database that would have led to the immediate arrest of this criminal and the compelling reasons for providing hard drugs on prescription for those addicted to them.

I don’t believe personally that we should head towards organising people who become prostitutes -I hate using this calloused term as they are firstly people, feeling and hurting like any of us, not objects- and I would like to see a society that provides helps women and men driven to this to find the sort of life, career, family etc that we all aim for.

Organising it seems to be an acceptance of what is happening, which is not acceptable, not because people who work as Prostitutes are 'bad' people, because they certainly are not (although I am appalled that people, their clients feel they can use others in this way) but because people driven to this sort of life deserve an awful lot better in life.

Best wishes
Bob Goodall

Regarding the item on the "holocaust review" conference held in Iran, I find the editorial bias quite astounding!

While I personally believe the Holocaust to have been one of the single most abhorrent and shameful events of human history, the fact that an open discussion, and expression of opinions, regarding its veracity is impossible in the "free" West (indeed, illegal in some countries) is in and of itself shameful. That a repressive, dictatorial regime such as Tehran's should in this one instance show us how to exercise free speech is incredible. And very disturbing.

Paxman:"Students are swapping subjects like Physics for more rigourous ones like Media Studies and Hospitality & Management" - classic!

More depressing political correctness on the Holocaust.....

I believe that the Holocaust did happen and that there is easily enough evidence to prove that it happened.

What I object to is the concept that people's freedom of speech to disagree that it happened should be challenged just because it was so terrible. Sadly if anything the inability of individuals to put forward an opposing arguement implies that the evidence for the Holocaust is not as strong as I have seen it to be.

It is very sad to see what is usually one of the few intelligent programs on British TV setting the report on Iran as if they are against freedom of speech. Surely this would have been better handled as an ironic piece mocking Iran's unwillingness to be open to free speech on so many issues that we are free to discuss in Europe whilst allowing a silly fringe discussion on one of the few issues that Europe bans free speech on.

I do not understand why the police have asked women to stay in, not wonder around the streets, and to be careful! Surely in a situation where there is a mad man on the loose the police should put a curfew on MEN. Common sense surely!

There are women who have to go out to work because they have evening jobs, these women will feel quite safe if the curfew is on men. Those men who also have to go out to work at night will be stopped and questioned and have to prove that their movements are legitimate. Not putting this curfew on men means that there is likely to be another murder. I think that the police are hoping for this, because the more the mad man murders, the more likely he will reveal his identity, so I expect that another "sacrifice" will occur well before he is caught.

It's time we took a leaf out of the Swedish book of law and made using prostitutes a crime, instead of the prostitutes themselves being regarded as criminals. In this way we will have clearer knowledge of the sad men who 'need' such women. The women themselves ought to be given the help and support they really need over their drug addiction. The murdered women are hardly women at all, they are (were) still so very young. It is sad that they are out there gratifying the 'needs' of sick men rather than having proper support and help.

There are grown up adult women who actually enjoy prostitution. They do their "work" in clean flats, well organised and charge a fortune. These are the women that the police seem to spend there time targeting. Remember the English women who went to France and set up an "escort" agency using adult women who enjoyed that kind of "work"? They charged £500 a bonk. The French police hunted this women who organised the escort "agency" down, and sent her to prison. But can they and us and the Italian police prevent the sex slave trade with young frightened girls who don't want to be prostitutes, no it seems we can't! Strange is it not, we can't manage that, too difficult not enough money, no resources?

But the truth is that these girls are cheap and they don't insult the male ego. It's probably an important part of the buzz for these men that the girls are scared and force and degraded and cheap to use. A real women who loves sex and charges for a clean room and some gymnastic indulgence at a high price is ripping men off for their weakness, so they are the ones that are targeted.

Its time we sorted this male privilege out and placed modern values, with a true respect for females reflected in a law that was not male centred.

Maybe the President of Iran is far more calculating than mad. Had Saddam Hussein wished Israel off the face of the map, or sponsored a holocaust denial conference, and pursued nuclear energy to the stage Iran are at, then the case for the war on Iraq would not have rested so much on dodgy intelligence. What if Iran are goading the US into a military conflict that they cannot win? What if such a war led to a greater middle east war? Maybe this is a calculation. Faced with defeat in a conventional war, maybe the US or Israel would contemplate using nuclear weapons? This is where the Iranian president might want this to end. Just a thought.

The Iran report showed interesting footage of students burning pictures of the president, and aired the views of a population that do not seem to be tuned into their president's agenda. It is a pity that the citizens will untimately pay the price for their leader's madness.

The Ipswich murders demonstrate the need to legalise and regularise the oldest profession in the world, for the protection of both providers and users of these kind of services. Comparisons with other serial killers are not helpful, and headlines that use the term "ripper" may serve to extend the killing spree, if notoriety is the killer's aim. There is a case for the return of the rope in Britain to address what seems to be an increase in the depravity and violence associated with the most serious crimes being carried out today.

Dear Newsnight

I found the interview by Jacqui Long of a prostitute/vulnerable woman in Ipswich very moving, but it left me very sad for the woman concerned and very angry that the only reason she is risking her life tonight is that she has pay for drugs, and our society refuses to help her. I’m sure those who have taken this ever so high moral high ground are safe and comfortable in their beds tonight, in their middle class homes and neighbourhoods as people like this interviewee pay a terrible price for their moralising tonight.

All those who oppose providing hard drugs to people addicted to them should watch this interview and hang their heads in shame. My understanding of such chemical addiction is that it is so powerful that people are driven mad by it and will to do anything to get hold of the drugs, such are the hold they have over people.

It is inhuman, despicable not to help such people and to withhold these drugs, and what I watched tonight seemed tantamount to slavery no less, women, some men forced to live like this because so vile individual has hooked them on a chemical that has such a complete hold over them. And I would guess that behind this, are terrible histories of abuse and maltreatment of the women concerned.

If these drugs were provided tonight, free of charge I doubt there would be any women putting her life in jeopardy tonight in Ipswich or a lot of other places.

As for those who are meant to govern us, where is the leadership, the morality, the driving social concern that drove others, giants of the past who cared passionately for the marginalised of this society and for similar people, overseas?

Where is it?

Yours
Bob Goodall

Wait a minute - isn't heroin illegal? Shouldn't we be arresting this woman instead of talking about her human rights?

It's her own fault for getting won in drugs in the first place - maybe if she'd paid more attention to her Maths textbook than the latest skateboard/movie/pop-star, she wouldn't be the same situation because she'll be at university right now instead of hanging around at night as a prostitute.

Muhammad, we are trying to be a humane society. Weaning drug users off the habit requires a slow withdrawal with drugs provided for this purpose. Not all drug addicts are prostitutes, and not all prostitutes are drug addicts. Many prostitutes can find no other way to remain economically active, and take care of their dependents. This is a fact of life in modern Britain. Independent of all of this, there is a murderer at large who has seemingly killed a number of women. The police need to find this killer before he strikes again.

Jeremy Paxman's questioning of President Putin's spokesman was very weak - disappointing, considering Jeremy's tough reputation. It was obvious that the spokesman considered it all a joke and yet Jeremy did not seem to wish to make the slightest effort to put him on the spot. Very few people in this country realise the extent to which Russians (including KGB men) are moving in and operating here, without any control by our government and yet no one seems to care. The velvet-glove treatment of Putin's spokesman appeared to be representative of how the whole affair is treated by the establishment but I expected more from someone like Jeremy.

Muhammad Atif wrote:
"Wait a minute - isn't heroin illegal? Shouldn't we be arresting this woman instead of talking about her human rights?"

Ouch such sanctimony!

Indeed it is illegal, and it would be an excellent idea to stop the drug barons bringing the stuff in from Pakistan in such large quantities and showing some compasion for the girls who are hooked of this drug.

Equally so it would make sense to review the male centred ancient laws here with regard to the sexual, so called 'needs', of men and to put together a modern law that respected women and adopted the Swedish book of criminal law that marks the man as the criminal and not the prostitute. Clearly men who harbour desires for sexual gratification with women who are in such a dreadful state are a menace to civilised society.

These men don't have to have sex with prostitutes, its not compulsory is it, its choice? If they didn't have these 'needs' there could be no trade and the girls who are desperate through whatever the cause could be properly helped in a way that would be constructive to their well being and not, as it is now, for the for sexual gratification of sick men.

Although we know this killer in Ipswich is not a "ripper" as was Sutcliffe, it was entirely appropriate to start with a reminder of that 1970s case and ask how much has changed since then. From what I remember much of the reporting has changed, as far as Newsnight is concerned anyway. But the most vital aspects apparently have not, unfortunately.

The victims are still primarily characterised as prostitutes, when all that is clear is that this is a serial killer of women. Such killers are not rare, unfortunately, as JP thought. We seem to have at least one a year in the UK. This one is very methodical, and is striking just as "working girls" will be trying to earn before Christmas and, it being mid-winter will be more easily attracted off the cold streets into vehicles. But the party season is in full swing and many young women over the next few weeks will be dressed for enjoyment and moving around, often under the influence of one drug or another. Someone who thinks working girls deserve to die may only too easily move to girls dressed for the party season.

The profiling psychologist had some interesting things to say, but we do have a problem that the perverted mind that would consider women best dead is still not seen as sufficiently unusual for the characteristics to be ready to hand immediately. This, now, in the first blaze of public concern and publicity, is when people should be being presented with the list of characteristics that would make them watch those most likely to be the killers. Not later when maybe there are some distinct personal aspects added.

Murder is the ultimate abuse, the total denial of someone's boundaries. There ought to be a mental diagnosis of "abusive personality disorder" but psychiatrists seem oddly resistant to adding that to their many existing ones of lesser value or validity. Maybe too many of them are that way themselves. It isn't normal. People rarely restrict such boundary disrespect to one circumstance, to one person, so here we should be watching those with limited respect for people's, or maybe mainly women's personal boundaries - their wishes, their decisions, their identities, their property, their independence. Maybe they have no idea of their own boundaries either, so they share themselves too easily with others, usually, but not now when they are hiding their activities and the evidence. Then add, in this instance, people who are out for hours at night in vehicles, who are detailed in clearing up, who know how to handle people on drugs.

And then there are the working girls. I hope Jacqui Long's exceptionally worthwhile interviewee was given a fee and packed off home for the night, and doesn't instead turn up dead in few days. Seeing the mental state she was in was horrifying. If gives the lie to the assertion that the police are doing everythng they can. Fifty or so girl addicts could so easily be provided with what they need (both heroin and money) at least until the killer is caught, not left out there, driven by a terrible addiction, and so out of their heads that a rational response to the danger is impossible.

Surely the police know that warnings will make no difference to girls in that state, and they need far more protection than that? How much are human lives worth? How much does it cost to investigate each additional murder?

Follow this more, please, with yet increasing intelligence.

Jonathan Reed wrote: "Has anyone read the job adverts in New Scientist lately. If they have they will notice that a very highly qualified Scientist will be lucky to earn £30,000 a year. What does that buy you property wise in a "Technology City" like London or Readong or Bristol. It wont support your home ad family. Until we pay people what they deserve they wont be interested."

And what about all the other people earning that, or far less? The property owners (including our Prime Minister) have beome rich beyond dreams and many suffer as a consequence. Ultimately the whole country will. But at least we are having an unprecedented period of economic stability.

Nice that Siemens is still offering apprenticeships, but I wonder if it has occurred to them, as it surely has to the "brightest" they seek to recruit in local schools, that the schemes lack most of the attractions of three years of student life?

Sofianetc wrote: "Jeremy Paxman's questioning of President Putin's spokesman was very weak - disappointing, considering Jeremy's tough reputation. It was obvious that the spokesman considered it all a joke and yet Jeremy did not seem to wish to make the slightest effort to put him on the spot. Very few people in this country realise the extent to which Russians (including KGB men) are moving in and operating here, without any control by our government and yet no one seems to care. The velvet-glove treatment of Putin's spokesman appeared to be representative of how the whole affair is treated by the establishment but I expected more from someone like Jeremy."

Hmm. The interview, and the answers, seemed totally reasonable to me. I was glad to see Russia being able to put up more a normally European quality of spokesman. It only they had been able to 40 years ago. Perhaps the comment comes from yet another emigre with an axe to grind? Beware how Iraqi exiles guided our government into war.

Your post 13 Jenny: excellent post.

It was clear in the days of the "Yorkshire Ripper" that rape is covertly condoned. There are females who our patriarchy believes are not worthy of protection from rape. At least two, three, or four females, sometimes more are sacrifice to the gratification of a sexual pervert each year. In the summer of the horror of Holly and Jessica there were five victims of this perversion. Milly "went" that year, and two others whose names are now forgotten, [one was a Danish student aged 15yrs who was raped and murders in the Isle of Wight that year.] This male uncontrolled urge takes its victims and there is seemingly nothing that can be done about it. Of course this not so.

In the case of Holly and Jessica this covert attitude to condoning rape was most overt. And a fine example of how it backfired. Huntley was using and abusing young girls who were not worthy of our protection, "trailer trash" types from sink housing estates, girls in the so cold care of social services. Huntley's sexual activities were reported but ignored. All kind of excuses where made after by the police, but the reason that these reports were ignored was simply because this covert code operates. Some girls and women are not worthy of our protection. Huntley went on, foolishly to rape, one presumes, and kill two little girls from a section of our community that we do respect. Probably he realised this time that he couldn't get away with it, so had to kill them to silence them. A two parent family, and a decent home, with a father, each of these little girls had. These are supposed to be off target. "No one must rape my daughter, but yours well, she might well have brought it on herself."

If we really wanted to protect women from this madman the police would have put a curfew on men in the area. They have not carried out this common sense prohibition because what the police "need" are more vitims then that makes the catching much easier. at some point this monster will make a mistake.

Althougth the public certainly need to know that these women have been murdered, we do not need to know that they were naked. Why are they giving us these purient facts?

Ref Muhammad Atif #8

- "Wait a minute - isn't heroin illegal? Shouldn't we be arresting this woman instead of talking about her human rights. It's her own fault for getting won in drugs in the first place - maybe if she'd paid more attention to her Maths textbook than the latest skateboard/movie/pop-star, she wouldn't be the same situation because she'll be at university right now instead of hanging around at night as a prostitute"

That is about simplistic & insensitive as saying ALL Muslims in Afghanistan are drug dealers (from a British perspective) as 90% of heroin in the UK is sourced from Afghanistan [1]

Then the Heroin is processed & distributed via Turkey [2]

Looks like another similar simplicity of argument could be then applied to Turkey (99.8% Muslims) *

* Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni), other 0.2% (mostly Christians and Jews) [3]

'…. this policy is aimed principally at Turkey, traditionally the site of the heroin factories where raw opium is turned into heroin' [1]

So based on the evidence, there is a clear association of the heroin trade (production, distribution & sale) too Muslims of different nationalities? *

* the Foreign & Commonwealth Office (FCO) attributes main heroin centres as being: Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Balkans & Central Asia [4]

Q. is that a consequence of faith and/or culture?

Or is it just another example, that alleged adherence to ANY faith (in this case Islam) does not stop nasty/illegal things happening in those countries/communities which choose to practice this religion.

A point expanded on in other NN thread - [5]

btw - personally believe, drug addicts need proper support (not blank cheque, but proper support). Thereafter, if they decline the assistance, they truly deserve what the law dishes out. Also the Human Rights of those who offend, should be less than those who adhere to the law.

So when we see HEROIN should we read MUSLIM?

Or should we realise that RELIGION does not prevent poor behaviour , no matter the protestations of zealots & fundamentalists of those who adhere to that religion.

Esp when such deny failings attributed to their religion, believers & communities - & instead look too intentionally blame non Muslims (of any faith) for inherent flaws in Islam, which followers choose to ignore/deny!

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5] /blogs/newsnight/2006/12/friday_8_december_2006.html

The Ipswich murders.

I was very disappointed in the way the bbc news announced the story to us.

Can you ask the police why, as a mad man is on the lose, the women need to stay at home? Surely a curfew should be put on all men?

Also and very important, can you not give us salacious details that are of no use to us. What is the point of telling us that the victims where naked? It's enough to know that they are dead, beyond that fact the rest is only of necessary concern to forensic psychologists and the police. Why try to feed the lascivious interest of hard core porn advocates?

Stop it, it's vile and disrespectful to those dead girls.

Now a fourth body has turned up. I do hope we are not going to be given graphic details of the poor girl's state of death, please, there must be respect. Respect, please.

Vikingar,

Even I know that Muslims aren't allowed to be intoxicated by anything. The fact that some Muslims do get intoxicated or sell intoxicants doesn't mean their actions are sanctioned by Islam.

It's funny how you use Turkey as an example of a Muslim country, when it enforces secularism in a rather despotic manner. It is far fro a Muslim country, women can't even cover their heads in public areas in Turkey.

People like you want it both ways. That is to say that you use countries like Turkey as an example of moderation and progress when it suits you and when you see that secualr Turks are involved in drug traficking or prostitution or pornography you use it as an example of Islam!! lol Unfortunately you can't have it both ways.

I know you tried to make your post seem as though you are against generalizations of people, but you still managed to do so.

Adam wrote of Vikingar,

"It's funny how you use Turkey as an example of a Muslim country, when it enforces secularism in a rather despotic manner. It is far fro a Muslim country, women can't even cover their heads in public areas in Turkey."

There is nothing funny about Turkey. Like America it is supposed to be a secular country and officilally it is, but like America it hold fast to its religion. Most M Turks are practicing Muslims see Vikingar comment 16, http ref 3.

In the interia of Turkey women are treated appallingly, "honour" killings and polygamy are rife. The human rights abuses in this country are of serious concern. So this ambiguity is not of Vikingar's making, it is part of the enigma of this country.

Ipswich murders: See Jenny #13. On the matter of keeping women safe - I can’t help thinking that the £25,000 reward [1], offered for information that leads to the capture of the murderer, could be better used helping those who have to be on the streets every other night.

[1]

Iran holocaust denial conference: A few questions spring to mind - Are the cartoonists who participated in the anti-holocaust competition under police protection fearing for their lives? Have there been worldwide demonstrations calling for them, or indeed the participants of the conference, to be prosecuted or assassinated? No? How come?

On a more politically correct background note:
- to ban or not to ban: [2a] and [2b]
- debating Irving’s sentence vs. freedom of expression [3]
- history and international aspects: [4]

[2a] particularly part 5
[2b]
[3]
[4]

PS: it’s been a while since I’ve watched a science programme that made me cringe as much as the Steve & Kathy scenes... oh yes, and thank you for the musical interludes ;-)

Ref Adam #19

Nope, you missed the point I was attempting too make entirely.

I am not trying to have it both ways.

I was attempting to point out something too 'Muhammad Atif'

That the practice of ANY religion, does not stop unhealthy/illegal practices by either those who practice it, or those who communities are supposedly run along its lines.

i.e. the holier than thou attitude practices by far too many Muslims (global empathy with strangers for one) whilst ignoring very obvious reserves of their belief e.g. Islamic Fracticide in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur & historically in ME, Pakistan, let alone the production, processing, distribution & selling of illegal drugs globally like heroin.

As too your 'people like you' quip - fyi I am a liberal conservative :)

Ref pro/con of Turkey in respect of EU membership, that is another discussion entirely :)

NEWSNIGHT REQUEST?

Given the left wing Lancet's fondness to estimate numbers killed in conflict (in wars where a representation of sides & issues suit their agenda).

… could NN interview Richard Horton or at least request The Lancet to give their estimate of numbers killed in Darfur v estimates killed in Iraq (& the causes/sources of such).

vikingar

pippop wrote: "Your post 13 Jenny: excellent post."

Thank you.

pippop wrote: "There are females who our patriarchy believes are not worthy of protection from rape."

Disposable people. I shy from using terms that cause others to immediately switch off, or imply there are no women complicit in this. But I do suspect that, most unfortunately, the female instinct, much more than in men, through make-up, hair, "fashion", to minimise differences from one's peers, to fit the role, undermines, away from immediate family and friends, perceptions of individuality. And when that peer group is not one society respects - and the group they label as "common prostitute" is the most extreme example - at times like these in Ipswich, little protection is provided.

Of course rape is only slightly less of an ignoring of a person's boundaries than murder, which is the basic reason the two so often go together. Rape is ignoring the victims decision not to permit penetration. Not to accept, as the feminist chant so memorably says:-
......"However we dress,
.......Wherever we go,
.......Yes mean Yes
.......No means No."

Every generation seems to have a handful of men who turn out to be serial killers of smaller, weaker, "feminine" people - children, feminine males, or women. Serial killers of heterosexual men are incredibly rare. And yet there is always this reluctance to admit the commonality: the gross violation of the personal boundaries, the ignoring of the right of other humans to make their own decisions from minute to minute, to allow some closer than others, to allow intimate access in some circumstances and not in others. Yet it has always been manifest previously, in lesser ways, but accepted as normal and the opportunity for prevention ignored.

Incidentally, I'm astounded at the "prohibitive" costs quoted for prescribing addicts heroin. It seems pharmaceutical profits come before any human need in the UK. Why, I wonder, can the Department of Health not go through their colleagues at Defence and secure some supplies direct from the fields they are policing in Afghanistan? Turn some growers there legitimate, and prevent crime, and presently death, here too.

How is the Lancet left-winged? The Lancet is not a political journal!

Just because it published an article about how many people it estimated had died in the Iraq War doesn't mean that it has a political viewpoint!

The Prostitutes don't have to do their job. They can always claim benefits! (every useless person is doing that nowadays!).

What ever happened to the concept of "dignity"? Is it not better to starve than do a job which demeans you?

Is it really that hard to get a job as a cashier/sales assistant in a supermarket in their local town? Isn't that a better alternative to prostitution?

I think if stricter laws were introduced in this country relating to heroin addiction - the rates of addiction will fall dramatically. Rehabilitation programmes will be provided for the addicts to help them kick off their habit - I agree with you about the withdrawal symptoms aspect of things.

A very tragic story here and it is still continuing. I just wanted to ask if anyone has a copy of this news report or have any idea of where I can get it from. I am doing an analysis on TV news for my degree. Would be of great help if anyone can direct me to the report. Once again I hope they find this mad man.

Jeremy Paxman in tonight's Newsnight suggested that the local police force (Suffolk) is not up to the job of investigating the current spate of apparent murders of young women from Ipswich.

His dismissive attitude appears to betray a deep prejudice and arrogance.

I am particularly incensed by the inferred assertion that only larger (city?) forces can possibly cope with the quality investigation that is required in cases such as these.

Rural does not mean stupid.

The Ipswich area has one of the highest density of technocrats in the UK. We are the major insurance centre of the country and have one of the highest growth rates of any area based on sound investment in human resources and infrastructure.

Mr Paxman opened his report this evening by referring to the town as ' a very average town'. These words in stark text do not communicate the distain with which he delivered them.

The programme makers should consider the effect on the families, friends and local population to the unfortunate victims who do not need his 'superior' demoralising of the fine and competent emergency services who are dealing with the current trauma.

I agree Allister, from the monday 11th report, it was mainly considering whether or not the prostitutes should remain on the streets and todays programme is about whether or not the local police can deal with the problems. Instead it should consider the effects on the town more than just looking at other aspects to the what the murders may have caused. I am sure the Ipswich police can deal with it, although I must also say that help would be a benefit in finding the serial killer. I am not a criminologist as you can tell and so I have no idea what clicks in a persons brain to make him do such tragic things.

p.s a link to monday 11th newsight would be of great help to me.

Ref Muhammad Atif #25

- "How is the Lancet left-winged? The Lancet is not a political journal!"

... ahhh hhherm (recycling previous effort)

THE LANCET - RESEARCH'

The Lancet under Richard Horton, has a history of published 'flawed research' which it latter retracts.

CASE [1] - MMR Vaccine

Richard Horton had previously been involved in controversy over claims he published in 1998 in The Lancet linking the MMR vaccine with autism [1]

These were later retracted. [1]
Horton acknowledge the 'flawed research' [2]

Therefore, readers would be rightly concerned about claims of war dead - how does this impact Lancets other publications?

CASE [2] - 1st Commissioned Research ref Dead in Iraq [3]

Estimate: 100,000
Released: 2004
Commissioned by: The Lancet
Conducted by: Iraqi field researchers led by America's Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
In Their Own Word: 'The report's authors admit it drew heavily on the rebel stronghold of Falluja... Strip out Falluja, as the study itself acknowledged, and the mortality rate is reduced dramatically.'
Published: soon before the US election of 2004, bringing accusations that the respected journal had become politicised

CASE [3] - 2nd Commissioned Research ref Dead in Iraq [4]

Estimate: 655,000
Released: 2006
Commissioned by: The Lancet? Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School? Other?
Conducted by: the same researchers from America's Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health who conducted 2004 research.
In Their Own Words: "Their new study, they say, reaffirms the accuracy of their survey of two years ago and moves it on"
Published: soon before US elections of 2006

RICHARD HORTON

"Richard Horton - Editor of The Lancet - "one should openly acknowledge science is political and not be afraid to get stuck into the debate,' Horton said in his first interview since the report appeared. 'To me that's one of the failures of science. It sees itself as being very apolitical, and that's just nonsense" 2004 [3]

Richard Horton - Editor of The Lancet - speech at anti war demo on 1st Day of Labour Conference 23rd September 2006 [5a]

Richard Horton - Editor of The Lancet - speech at anti war demo on 1st Day of Labour Conference 24th September 2006 [5b] *

* btw - if Horton is going to extend criticism of British government beyond Iraq to Lebanon & our relations with US & Israel, esp regarding use of 'Cluster Bombs' would like Horton to extend this to the criticism of Hezbullah esp their use of cluster bombs also [6]

If Horton rational about the use of science for political means does he have someone in common those who apply convenient liberal application of science for a 'good' i.e. German scientists who worked on V2 & other programs for the Nazis [7a] though not alone about danger of using science for political purposes [7b]

SUMMARY

Mr Richard Horton & The Lancet have a track record of releasing inflated & speculative figures to influence & manipulate foreign elections (recall Alqaeda did the same via Madrid Bombing).

Seem to recall the Left always accusing the Right of manipulating other countries elections - 'kettle calling pot - over'

Another politicised discredited dubious 'study' placing all deaths by any manner/cause into one body count, whilst ignoring which groups are actually responsible [8] for murdering Iraqi civilians & continuously killing largest amount of Iraq civilians i.e. sectarian groups, terrorists, insurgents *

* btw - not ignoring coalition responsibilities here - but if people are intent on continuing historic Islamic fracticide amongst between communities [4] - very little they can do about it unfortunately, but the least we can do is acknowledge it not deny that the killings are happening & who is doing the killing.

Journalist Michael Fumenton of the US-based TCS website called The Lancet 'Al-Jazeera on the Thames'. [1]

Unfortunately, The Lancet has become nothing more than a discredited manipulated tool of left wing pressure politics.

If I had a subscription to The Lancet - it would have been cancelled.

vikingar

SOURCES

[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5a]
[5b]
[6]
[7a]
[7b]
[8]

Dear Newsnight

I agree with Jenny's Post, 13

"Fifty or so girl addicts could so easily be provided with what they need (both heroin and money) at least until the killer is caught, not left out there, driven by a terrible addiction, and so out of their heads that a rational response to the danger is impossible."

Why isnt this being done?

A national DNA database would also catch this criminal or criminals and large numbers of other criminals.

Yours
Bob Goodall

vikingar wrote: "Journalist Michael Fumenton of the US-based TCS website called The Lancet 'Al-Jazeera on the Thames'. Unfortunately, The Lancet has become nothing more than a discredited manipulated tool of left wing pressure politics."

Tech Central Station is a "Free Market", climate change denial, Intelligent Design promotion, lobbying site, founded by a Republican Party promotion group.[1]

"If I had a subscription to The Lancet - it would have been cancelled."

If you had ever had a subscription to The Lancet you might have some concept of scientific method and sifting of evidence.

[1]

Muhammad Atif wrote: "The Prostitutes don't have to do their job. They can always claim benefits! (every useless person is doing that nowadays!)."

Clearly you have never needed to claim benefits. Although if a person is truly "useless" they would need to be on benefits, since we long ago decided that there should be a safety net to prevent human being dieing, homeless and starving on the streets of this country.

However, one big problem for those girls is that benefits do not pay for heroin.

"What ever happened to the concept of "dignity"? Is it not better to starve than do a job which demeans you?"

The benefits system would not agree with such lofty ideals. Although they won't send a girl (or boy) to do sex work.

"Is it really that hard to get a job as a cashier/sales assistant in a supermarket in their local town? Isn't that a better alternative to prostitution?"

Cashier jobs tend not to be given to heroin addicts.

"I think if stricter laws were introduced in this country relating to heroin addiction - the rates of addiction will fall dramatically. Rehabilitation programmes will be provided for the addicts to help them kick off their habit - I agree with you about the withdrawal symptoms aspect of things."

We've been having this argument for years and it makes no progress. It is illegal already, so once some evil **** has hooked a kid they only have two choices: do illegal things whilst out of their heads and suffering the other side-effects in order to buy the illegal drug until they are imprisoned or die; or do the same until a place on a methadone programme becomes available, after which they live with the side effects of methadone instead and have to go collect the methadone daily. Either way holding down a job or career is impossible.

I like to see visible action against whoever is hooking these young women in Ipswich on heroin.

Ref Jenny # 31

Interesting background on Tech Central Station, here is another [1]

Personally, would never tout the loony notions of Creationism & Intelligent Design, as my previous contributions demonstrate [2]

But even The Guardian has done a piece on it [3] writing about a subject does not mean the organ supports it.

The exception too this rule would appear to be the self outed antiwar left wing politics of The Lancet (as Richard Horton's own video speech demonstrates 5a - #29)

Tech Central Station v The Lancet [4]

More RIGHT ON support for The Lancet but interesting nether the less [5]

Interesting comparison ref Lancet methods ref casualty estimates in Iraq, Congo & Darfur (by Royal Hollway) [6]

The clear left wing political nature of The Lancet & thus questionable aims & methods of their 'research' to support their agenda undermines what they are doing.

Even the Iraqi Body Count [7] (hardly a right wing bastion!) clearly doubts The Lancets figures & methods or research on Iraq [8]

So Jenny medear, whose 'concept of scientific method and sifting of evidence' needs reviewing?

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2] /blogs/newsnight/2006/11/monday_27th_november_2006.html
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7]
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