大象传媒

This is outrageous. No wonder we have problems with integration. Multi-culturalism, whether you agree with it or not, is about 'culture' not multi-lingualism! Try getting any official services or access in France in English and see how far you get. We have got this 100% wrong. Who are the idiots who think it is a legal duty to translate when there is no such legal duty.

It is said that ignorance is no excuse in the Laws of the Land, so why should ignorance of English be any different?

Good to see this raised at last....can't imagine migrant workers from UK receiving similar support

No wonder this country is going down the plug hole rapidly.

The translation report was nothing more that scaremongering, and the handling of this story was appalling.

You have to laugh, here we have the 大象传媒 which has been doing its best over the last 20 to 30 years to brainwash everyone into being multi-cultural and making us all scared to voice any objection to the out of control immigration into our country, now suddenly realizing something has gone terribly wrong.

Whole industries have been created out of multicultralism and any observations that have now been noted by the 大象传媒 have been obvious to us mere mortals for years.

There is no legitimate reason whatsoever for government to spend money on translation.

All Britsh children should be taught English. All immigrants should be tested to ensure they can speak English as a condition of immigration. Asylum seekers should be given English lessons and should be expected to learn. Tourists are the only people in the country who should not be expected to speak English, and they should not require government services. And if they do, they should pay for their own translation.

That leaves zero legitimate room for government spending taxpayer's money on this.

I used to teach ESL to women at their own homes, it was a free service available to empower those who were barred from integration because of lack of english. however, I have also worked for national companies with a very large proportion of staff for whom english is not the first language and in this scenario, english is not spoken or heard in the workplace. it is current practice to only use english if and when absolutely necessary.

I find Newsnight's attack on translation services for foreigners an appalling invitation for viewers to spout racist filth. Is this what passes for 'intelligent journalism' -rolling in the same xenophobic trough as the Murdochs and the Desmonds? This is not a 'debate', it's giving a lead to those who hate their neighbours. Translation services and printing in other languages form vital bridges, not barriers. I speak as a teacher of English to migrants, and every single student is glad to learn English. We should encourage locals to learn a few words of other languages, rather than insist, as Blair & his cabinet bleat (as Gary Younge sharply observed) that multiculturalism only comes in 2 kinds - Anglo and Saxon. Easton, Paxman, and Newsnight, be ashamed. Be very ashamed. Please forward this to be logged as an official complaint.

I found it kind of odd that all the women in the street that were focussed on as examples of non-english-speaking, public-money-draining leeches were all scarved muslim women.Portraying these women in a negative light again felt light cheap popularity point scoring by newsnight.The subject is important and surely newsnight could have dealt with it in a more grown-up way.

I am absolutely stunned by the amount of money spent on translation and interpreter services, coming out of taxes, NI contributions - and council taxes!
It is extraordinary that the government doesn't even seem to know how much money is spent on these services.
It is even more astonishing to hear that people now seem to think it is their right not to have to speak English.
The worst however is this: How many women are kept in virtual captivity because they cannot communicate? And this situation is acceptable to New Labour? How does that accord with the human rights of these women?
How can we hope to get a modicum of integration if people can't be bothered to speak the language of this country?
And to top it all we have a Labour Minister saying he won't answer so as not to give ammunition to the BNP?
Have the lot in Westminster now utterly and totally lost any contact with the reality faced by the people of this country?
Finally - as pensioner on a tight income I object vehemently to this blatant misuse of our council taxes. Use the money to enforce the learning of English! If the Danish Parliament can do this, if the Netherlands can do this - why not we? Danish and Dutch are a whole lot more difficult to learn than English.
I'm hopping mad about this misuse!
V.G.E.

拢100 million on interpreters seems to be the tip of the iceberg as far as the true cost of immigration. According to the minister tonight we spend far more than that teaching a further 1.8 million to speak english. This makes an absolute mockery of the home office figures on the number of immigrants coming into the country. no wonder they keep increasing my taxes.

Sure , it seems an interesting idea to move many new immigrants, especially those allowed to work and earn, towards actively pursuing language education.If there was any to be had any longer, that is....
It would help however if the government would refuse to implement the proposals to stop all subsidised ESOL (English for Foreigners) language classes, just because a few hundred thousand Poles have used up all capacity. The savings on interpreting services could be usefully diverted into language classes for the low income or non-income groups such as incoming Asian spouses and elderly relatives, and certainly for asylum seekers and refugees who are still awaiting completion of their legal procedures or are in prolonged and bureaucratic transition to citizenship, often without work.......In fact for some in the incoming new-spouses group a bit of countercultural compulsion might be justifiable, especially for the women.......THE NIACE/DfES (Nat.Inst.for Adult Continued Education proposes to cut all English teaching for foreign incomers, regardless of need and of ability to pay. It will increase yet more the need for interpreting services.....without any spin-offs of cultural assimilation.

Puck de Raadt

Why should we expect immigrants from outside the British Isles to learn English, when most monoglot immigrants from England to predominantly Welsh-speaking areas refuse to learn the oldest, surviving language of these islands?

..and who polices the translations? How qualified are the translators/interpretrs to do the job?
What is the legal standing of these "translations"? Are they accurate? Who knows?

(sorry - previously posted this to the wrong comments section):

What was wrong with Paxman in the studio piece on translation services, with the Bangladeshi human rights lawyer and Phil Woolas ? He seemed like a parody of himself, like Raynond Terrific of Mitchell and Webb fame.

And what do we the viewers gain ? Nothing. This was the most interesting news item of the day, a real test of whether there could be honest and reasoned debate in such a politically sensitive area. Then Paxman blunders in, and all possibility of genuine increase in understanding is obliterated by his aggressive attitude. Raise your game !

Demand for translation services in specialist subject areas such as medicine and law can exist even among immigrants with good conversational English.
This is because the level of language acquired by beginners of English is not sufficient for them to talk about or understand technical specialisms like medecine and the law.
Many British people learn languages at school for several years, but even that level of achievement wouldn't enable them to understand court proceedings or a medical diagnosis.

I am furious that the item about translation made no mention of the recent cuts in funding for English language classes - this will have a huge impact on motivation and ability to attend classes and presumably the need for even more translations - why was the minister not taken to task on this and why did no-one mention the funding cuts and the implication this will have both for new arrivals to Britain and services already here. We have nearly 1000 students on a waiting list for our college's English classes - they want to learn not to read translations!

Has Newsnight teamed up with the Daily Mail? I find it really shocking that the reporter should oppose tax payers and non-British people in such a way. I arrived in this country 12 years ago with my expensive education (master degree) fully paid by my country of origin and have since contributed substantially to the UK Inland Revenues (a lot more than I use British Public Services). Over these 12 years my taxes paid for the NHS, the British education system, the war in Irak and even for these translations... In the meantime I have obviously learned to speak English and, like most foreigners here to stay, I fully integrated into the British society ( I watch Newsnight every evening if this can used a benchmark of integration!!!).

For most of the 20th Century, (and all of the previous centuries) immigrants to Britian depended on voluntary help from their colleagues to help them with whatever language problems they had. It worked for every group from the Gaelic speaking Irish to the WW2 Poles and Free French. Funny how they all kept their cultural identities and still managed to integrate. Maybe there are just a lot of things public services (and Government) should just leave people to get on with solving for themselves.

For most of the 20th Century, (and all of the previous centuries) immigrants to Britian depended on voluntary help from their colleagues to help them with whatever language problems they had. It worked for every group from the Gaelic speaking Irish to the WW2 Poles and Free French. Funny how they all kept their cultural identities and still managed to integrate. Maybe there are just a lot of things public services (and Government) should just leave people to get on with solving for themselves.

Nicholas White posting 17 exactly right. A provocative and hence arguable piece of journalism but a good one to statr a debate is then entirely undermined by JPs antics. This is why politicians won't answer questions.

This is complaint of the utmost seriousness against Jeremy Paxman for his arrogant, petty, unfocused and unfair style when 'interviewing'a British Government Minister on a current and important issue on the Newsnight programme at around 11.00pm on 12th December. The Minister was Phil Woolas.

In my view Mr Paxman has done a grave diservice to the 大象传媒 and it's viewers
because he has woefully failed to do his job - which surely is to inform, educate and get to the heart of key issues. In addition he completely failed to show any respect which is surely due to a democratically elected British MP and Minister.

It is now time for Peter Barron to have a 'down to earth' talk with Mr Paxman to ascertain if he really wants to continue in a job that he looks less and less interested in discharging with any sense of thoughtful intelligence.

Jeremy Paxman's attitude and report was a disgrace. He didn't make any effort to explore the issue. The core of the issue is an absolute right for everyone to access services and to be treated fairly by everyone delivering those services. The newsnight report did not discuss this matter. Paxman obstructed the Minister and did not challenge the assertions of the so-called 'human rights lawyer' at all. The way this issue was reported strongly indicates a racist agenda. Don't these reporters realise that the need for translation services has a lot to do with the isolation and oppression of members of overwhelmingly ethnic minority communities, many of whom are women or elderly. If no attempt is made, for example through provision of translation services, we will be demonstrating institutional racism. The treatment of this issue was more like what you would expect in the Sun or the Daily Mail rather than the 大象传媒. Paxman, with his combative and insulting attitude, needs to more carefully consider the racist agenda that is being developed here by a so - called 'human rights lawyer'.

Until very recently in the long history of Britain,new immigrants to England depended on volunteers to help them with any translation problems they had. Those voluntary groups were usually settled groups from particular countries. Guess what - that system worked very well for generations. People from all over Europe, Africa and Asia have settled, integrated and retained their cultural heritage. Maybe public services and Government should just back off and let communities get on with helping where it is needed. They have a better track record than all the nanny state intervention of my lifetime.

I thought the report on the cost for translators for UK ESOL (English as a second language) citizens was uncharacterstically biased and distasteful.

I work for and know Dame Ruth Silver (Lewisham College) and used to work for the highly reputable Principal of Tower Hamlets College ( Joanna Gaukroger) These two forward-thinking and compassionate educationalists are concerned with learners who are isolated,and, through no fault of their own, are isolatedfrom the wider British Society. For these learners, linguistic support is sorely needed in order to realise their full potential.

I personally spent years on state benefit as a struggling teacher before becoming a successful teacher trainer. Now I can help others realise their potential. I hope that my fellow citizens, be they not native English speakers, are afforded the same opportunity.

I suppose it depends upon your point of view; for me, I guess I know the type of society I'd be proud of.

I thought the report on the cost for translators for UK ESOL (English as a second language) citizens was uncharacterstically biased and distasteful.

I work for and know Dame Ruth Silver (Lewisham College) and used to work for the highly reputable Principal of Tower Hamlets College ( Joanna Gaukroger) These two forward-thinking and compassionate educationalistsare concerned with learners who are isolated,and, through no fault of their own, are isolatedfrom the wider British Society. For these learners, linguistic support is sorely needed in order to realise their full potential.

I personally spent years on state benefit as a struggling teacher before becoming a successful teacher trainer. Now I can help others realise their potential. I hope that my fellow citizens, be they not native English speakers, are afforded the same opportunity.

I suppose it depends upon your point of view; for me, I guess I know the type of society I'd be proud of.

I thought the report on the cost for translators for UK ESOL (English as a second language) citizens was uncharacterstically biased and distasteful.

I work for and know Dame Ruth Silver (Lewisham College) and used to work for the highly reputable Principal of Tower Hamlets College ( Joanna Gaukroger) These two forward-thinking and compassionate educationalistsare concerned with learners who are isolated,and, through no fault of their own, are isolatedfrom the wider British Society. For these learners, linguistic support is sorely needed in order to realise their full potential.

I personally spent years on state benefit as a struggling teacher before becoming a successful teacher trainer. Now I can help others realise their potential. I hope that my fellow citizens, be they not native English speakers, are afforded the same opportunity.

I suppose it depends upon your point of view; for me, I guess I know the type of society I'd be proud of.

THIS IS A FIRST TIME I CONTACT IN ANY WAY WITH A MEDIA AND I AM VERY THRILLED THAT YOUR REPORTER MADE SUCH AN EXCELLENT JOB,AS WELL AS MR PAXMAN AS WELL,AS ALWAYS DOES,ALMOST.
I DONT KNOW IF I WILL SOUND INFLAMMATORY OR WHATEVER,BECAUSE THESE THOUGHTS ARE PILLING UP IN MY MIND SINCE I CAME TO THIS BELOVED COUNTRY ALMOST 2 YEARS AGO.
IT IS BEYOND ANY DOUBT NOW THAT EVERYBODY COMES IN THIS COUNTRY,MISUNDERSTANDS AND FINALY MISUSES THIS ADMIRING ,FAMOUS BRITISH KINDNES,HOSPITALITY AND TOLERANCE TAKING ADVANCE OF THE SYSTEM WASTING YOUR OWN MONEY.
ITS UNHEARD THAT THING:CONSTANT DISCRIMINATION AGAINST THE BRITISH CITIZENS IN ORDER TO PAMPER,NOT VERY RARE I AM AFFRAID PEOPLE FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD .NOT TRYING TO WORK, A SEVERE NUMBER OF THEM, GIVING BIRTH TO A DOZEN OF CHILDREN ,ALL PAYED BY YOUR FATHERS AND YOUR FAMILYS MONEY.BUT WHEN A POOR LAD GOES TO ASK FOR A HELP HE WILL BE KICKED OUT BECAUSE HE IS BRITISH.
POLITICALY CORECTNESS HAS TO BE ERASED DOWN TO SOME LEVEL, OR AT LEAST THE THINGS HAVE TO BE MORE STRICT . OTHER WISE PRETTY SOON THE BRITISH PEOPLE WILL ENDED UP MINORITY,IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY,AS IT IS AT LEAST IN NORTH LONDON,AS FAR AS I CAN TELL.
THANK GOD TO MR BLAIR AND THE LABOURS,WHO BECAME DEFENDERS OF THE POOR OF THE ANKARA AND THEY ARE DEVASTATED BECAUSE THEY WILL BE A DELAY IN THE JOINT OF TURKEY IN E.U.

Seems logical that you receive the more reasoned comments later. Maybe you should reverse the order of the listing?

It is good to see a member of the Government appearing on Newsnight; even when Ministers attempt to evade the questions put to them one can sift from their statements whether the government approach is constructive, pragmatic or just the unsurprising head-in-the-sand ideologic stance of those who don't (directly) suffer the consequences of their decisions.

When Phil Woolas MP and Minister for Local Government was asked if he knew the translation costs (borne by voting taxpayers) he finally came clean with "No, of course I don't know and neither do you", though why Paxman should know the official figures better than the Minister is beyond me; it did seem to me though to be a retort from someone who had nothing better to offer.

I wasn't surprised, then, that he resorted to the 'Fear the Far Right' ploy.

Let me state explicitly to the Government and those who think Newsnight viwers spout racist filth - there is nothing racist about expecting British citizens to speak English.

How many languages are spoken in Britain every day? Am I supposed to learn phrases in all of them? If so, then shouldn't every member of every minority group learn all those multi-language phrases as well, unless of course this equal expectation is somehow not PC? That multi-language proposition makes as much sense as conducting our every-day shopping using multiple currencies.

For the past 11 years, I have been a French economic migrant in the Netherlands where I greatly improved my English level, but still do not speak a word of Dutch. I came here for business reasons. I was entitled to 180 hours of Dutch lessons as part of my employer transfer policy that I was never allowed to benefit from. The employer refuses for cost reasons, the trade unions were not interested and lawers did see that as relevant to enforce!!! Everywhere I go in Amsterdam, I speak English to a point that I am forgetting that it is not an official language. I took lessons recently from a scheme set up by the city of Amsterdam. After a few sessions, I went buying a local newspaper and I used my learning: the price was replied to me in English...

But what has that to do with UK? Today, being unemployed I feel frustrated to a point that I wander if the language is used as a weapon of apartheid or at least rejection by the native indigenes. Honestly I do not hope so. But availability of translated materials does not help at all. Indeed, it acts against integration. I do consider myself guilty. Why? There is a huge difference between acceptance of multi-culturism and respect of local rules. Being a foreign woman in Saudi Arabia does not give the right to drive: it is forbidden to all women. Despite his/her believes, the law applies to all identically in the UK. When you go to live abroad, you can do it in two ways: within a compound or within the country community. In Africa, I have seen the first one used often by americans and the latter by Europeans. Only the second allows you to learn the culture and understand the differences. And then you need the language. If you migrate, you must accept that you will have to learn and adapt to your new culture, not the other way around. But it does not mean that you have to reject your origines. But be aware that you will change as a result.

A side effect of translation availability can also be the development of extremism. Which party is the most openly in favour of enforcing the learning of the national language? In the UK, the answer is either UKIP or BNP! What to say about those who think that the country is invaded?

The report is mentioning 拢100m costs of translation, which means less than 拢2 per person in average per annum or 拢1 just for the NHS. So, I would prefer looking at the negative political side rather than the cost one. Indeed, the hidden cost might be somewhere else. Here in the Netherlands, the cunundrum is that I claimed a tax discount (>33%) on my study costs for a MBA with the Open University (UK). No tax break in the UK if you study outside in distant learning?

So my recommendation is: LIMIT TRANSLATION TO THE STRICT OBLIGATIONS OF THE LAW.

Cheers

Paxman did the best he could in the all-to-common situation of being faced with yet another of Labour's automaton minsters, Phil Woolas, who was patently determined to avoid answering a direct question under any circumstances simply because he had no sensible response. I'm English and happily married for over 26 years to a Malaysian wife, and we are both appalled at the increasing numbers of foreigners settling in the UK with absolutely no intention of integrating into English society for which learning of the English language is an essential requirement. Local council managers and civil servants appear to be totally incapable of recognising and understanding the divisions in society that they are creating by their policy of translating every last bureaucratic document into a myriad of foreign languages at vast expence to tax payers. I suspect that most if not all of those that criticise Paxman and the beeb for this Newsnight item have no first-hand knowledge or experience of social engagement with the immigrant population and are simply mouthing politically correct and ill-formed judgements from the safety of their narrow & befuddled minds. My wife and I unreservedly support the views expressed by the Asian human rights lawyer and hope that this subject continues to be aired until local councils and the civil service are forced into reversing their current lazy-minded pc policies.

Sorry to post twice, but please don't take any notice of those who say Mr Paxman is too 'arrogant' etc on people whose waffling they sypathise with. Paxman should be as robust or impolite as necessary to evasive politicians and propagandists so that they answer the question posed rather than yap on about something else. If politicians don't like being interrupted, they should answer the question without waffling. Quite rightly, he seemed to me just as robust questioning the lawyer ("do you really think there should be translation services at all?") as the politician, but the lawyer didn't seem to be trying so hard to avoid the question. Paxman at his best is why I tolerate the Television Tax. Excellent stuff.

Honestly Jeremy what a buffoon the MP was. Talk about unable/unwilling to answer a question................I trust he hasn't been demanding a pay rise! ........
I thought the Solicitor in the report relating to translation was fascinating, quite delightfully reasoned. It seems common sence does still reside in small pockets within the UK.

The emperor has no clothes. Cameron's left ankle who spoke this evening was as blustering, evasive and ill prepared as his Government counterparts. It is not wrong for the Sun to demand policies and principles on the major issues facing the country. The Tory's inability to set out a clear Tory principle upon which policy would later be developed was his greatest error. Maybe these new Tories do not understand basic conservative philosophy and principles, and are playing a wait and copy game with Gordon Brown.

The language issue is a symptom of a bigger issue. In the 1800s we sent convicts on ships to Australia and look what they have done. A fair points based immigration system under which immigrants who speak english are awarded more points. Similarly, persons with skills and qualifications that the country needs will get higher points. The UK system seems to work in reverse.

I congratulate Newsnight on raising the translation issue. Having lived abroad, my experience is that to be able to speak in the host language (however inexpertly) is central to identity as a part of the host society, and in my experience, was enthusiastically welcomed and encouraged by it. It's depressing to read comments that associate steps to encourage language aquisition with racism. I witnessed legal racism in South Africa.
The peddlers of the racism clap-trap are unwittingly perpetuating the notion that to be of an ethnic origin is to be a 'different British'.

I always suspected that the cost for the provision by public bodies of translation services for non-English speakers was very high. But I have been shocked by the estimate of 拢100 million - and there is even a suggestion that this tax payer's bill could be higher!

However, instead of anti-immigrant people using this statistic as yet another excuse for venting their spleens against the alleged spectre of 'multiculturalism', they need to be responding constructively to a different question. Would the unity and integration of our society be genuinely better served by withdrawing these translation services completely from these people?

I doubt it. These services are provided by public bodies principally to ensure that these people have an equal access to those services to which everyone else is entitled. Translation ensures, for instance, that they fully understand their rights - as well as their personal responsibilities - when accessing important public services like welfare benefits, health care or legal advice. Denying such services merely reinforces the barriers of communication that already exists between non-English speakers and the rest of the population, and it will encourage an inequality of access to public services for certain groups. Translation services might well not be encouraging some non-English speakers to learn English. But, curiously enough, these services do provide a bridge to the worthwhile process of integration - as well as a vital tool for educating these people through the advice that they receive in their principal languages about aspects of our society. Withdrawing translation sevices, therefore, would be a false economy, and it would widen, not close, the gulf between those who speak, and those who do not speak, English.

The other wise point that was made during this report was that the provision of expensive translation services does not, in of itself, also imply that most immigrants are not making simultaneous efforts to attend classes and learn our language. Indeed, the evidence suggests that considerably more money is being spent on providing English language classes than on providing translation services. These two public services are not mutually exclusive; they actually complement each other.

I do think, however, that it is right to be concerned about the aparently spiralling costs of translation services. The Government needs to carry out an audit of how this 拢100m plus is being spent, and whether this money could be rationed so that these services are only provided in absolutely essential circumstances.

I also agree with those who have raised concerns that an automatic presumption in favour of providing these translation services does seem to act as a disinsentive for many NOT to make the effort to learn our principal language. It is not acceptable that a significant minority of immigrants have lived here for many years (and in many cases have also sought to settle here for good), but have apparently seen no need to become proficient in English. It is essential that if they genuinely wish to integrate and play a more active part in the social life of our society, they must speak, write and read English to a satisfactory standard. Speaking and communicating in a common language is the best tool to social integration. I should through make the point that there are also too many of our indigenous people - who have apparently been educated in our schools - whose command of spoken and written English is very poor. Perhaos there is a need to get our own house in order first before fashioning yet another stick with which to beat our immigrant populations!

The Government perhaps needs to switch some of that surplus expenditure that is being wasted on trivial translation services to boosting the provision of English language classes. And, as in certain other countries in Europe, it also needs to link much more tightly the association between coming over here to settle and acquire citizenship status, and the duty to learn the mother tongue of our multicultural society - which should be English.

I was delighted to see that Phil Woolas MP, when using the tired politician鈥檚 ploy of answering the questions his notes prepared him for instead of those put to him, was given short shrift by Paxo at his acerbic best. Politicians constantly need reminding that news programmes and party political broadcasts are not the same thing.

Hats off as well to the interviewer in the accompanying story. He sank Tower Hamlets Council apparatchik Michael Keating without trace when Keating鈥檚 pompous demand of 鈥淲here鈥檚 the evidence?鈥� was answered with 鈥淚t鈥檚 on your [Council TV] screen.鈥� and a finger pointing just off camera. Evidence that local government bigwigs have as little idea of what councils get up to as we mere mortal ratepayers.

As for demands that immigrants learn English, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. What percentage of expat Brits in Spain speak more Spanish than is needed to buy food, drink and petrol?

Dear Newsnight

What an extraordinary number of posts tonight, the most important story tonight was regrettably what is happening to some of the most vulnerable people in society in Ipswich. How many posts on this? The whole matter is desperately sad but suddenly what is so important is translating leaflets in other languages. Huh?

Why all the fuss about translation services, the issue has its place sure, low down on the news and political agenda, (excepting the effect it has on marginalising women in some communities -but this has been an issue that has been ignored for years that should be quietly and decisively changed with help for those affected by this) but this all seems suddenly over the top and getting things out of proportion. Suddenly cutting back on this service will not even scratch the surface of the issues that really exist.

The vast majority of migrants, first and second generation speak, or are learning English. If this is untrue I suggest comparing the Census figures for such groups, and work out how many as a percentage cant speak English. Its a small percentage. So wheres the story?

There are so many other issues that need sorting. Has someone decided to throw a red herring into the news agenda and get the hounds off the scent. Its worked!

Seems like a distraction from what we should be concerned with, not worthy of wall to wall coverage, and I worry a little about what this and a few other stories ie about migrants is really about.

If our country is really magnanimous and fair minded I wouldn't expect to see this sort of thing.

Perhaps there is an issue here, but maybe its not translation services more the state of the nation.

Yours
Bob Goodall

Why has this become an urgent issue today as opposed to, say, six years ago?

The underlying, and somewhat paranoid argument, runs like this:

"Not speaking English is a sign of non-integration. Non-integration can lead to terrorism".

To my knowledge, all the named terrorists for 7/7 and 9/11 spoke fluent English.

Admittedly Newsnight did not mention terrorism, but it seems to me that this current focus on multi-culturism vs integration has post 9/11 written all over it.

I'd be interested to know how many ex-patriot Brits living abroad have not learned to speak a second language. Proportionately I will bet this figure is higher than among any other nationality living in Britain. In truth, we have a long tradition of complacency bordering on arrogance when it comes to speaking any language other than English.

That is one reason I found myself cringing at tonight's piece. The overwhelming majority of people for whom English is not their first language, but who now live here, do in fact speak English. That there are some that don't does not justify what sounds uncanilly like an outburst of intolerance - a key word in Tony Blair's recent speech.

I'm actually in favour of anyone learning to speak the language of a country in which they're living. But to turn this common sense notion into a source of righteous indignation is rich coming from us.

Blair said: "Our tolerance is part of what makes Britain, Britain. So conform to it; or don't come here."

A certain irony there. Needless to say, I disagree with the thrust of tonight's piece - which was that the availability of translator and interpreter services is a problem and withdrawing them could be helpful.

Simon

Sometimes Newsnight looses all sense of proportion and dignity. Its more like watching the Daily Mail than the 大象传媒. The piece on 'translation' services was quite frankly alarming. It looked and sounded just like a BNP broadcast. Its ironic as well given that the 大象传媒 claims on its website that viewers can get the news in 33 different languages!

We should welome the diversity of languages and cultures.
We should make language learning compulsory in our schools and not just English.
We should welcome the public sector in its inclusive approach to its service delivery.
We should offer free English courses to any community.
And we should make availabe language courses in local areas for English speakers where there is a predominace of a particular language or a diversity of languages.

Lets hope the 2million Brits that have left these shores for Spain are all taking down thier, 'We speak English here' signs and are putting up their..Ola Hablo Espanlo ones.

Quite disgraceful Newsnight and the 大象传媒 and spot on Phil Woolas for pointing out your pandering to the BNP and their like.

I was fasinated by the debate last night about the translation cost that public encounters with regard to providing access to services to immigrant workes.
Being Polish myself, I am outraged with the amounts being spent on this every year!
I personally believe that EVERYBODY who come and want to live in a foreign country need to assimilate with the host nation, and there isn't a better way to do it than by learning the language.
I am ashamed that so many of my country men come over to England without the most basic knowledge of english and are 'granted' access to all benefits this country offers. They live in small Polish communities, earning minimum wage and still can claim benefits! I also know about some, who without being able to communicate, were given residency in this country(I still haven't even applied for mine)!!!!
The money that are being spent on the translation cost should in my opinion go towards providing english lessons for foreigners - let's not make it so easy for them! Maybe before providing people with residency there should be some test on the knowledge of English asd well as knowledge of history of England (that has proven succesfull in the States)?
I would not have imagined to come to England and expect everybody else to live by my rules - it is not my place. I am still a guest here. But on the other hand I do realise I need to follow laws and customs which are in this country.
In light of new governmental policy on community cohesion a lot remains to be done.
But first of all, let's make them all speak english!

A remarkable day:

- the police/social care team in Ipswich put the whole UK media to shame by making it clear from the outset that these are murders of women, some with young children, living difficult lives in a community that cares for them - well done Ipswich!!!!

- I marched for many rights isssues in the 1980s but PC never meant to me then what it has become now although even in those days the warped interpretation of some was apparent and usually it was noticeably the result of either a chip on the shoulder or career ambitions. So now we see that PC policies have kept ethnic women trapped in un-British and unfair gender relations for the past 20 years. BUT positive discrimination was always going to be a policy that requires far greater knowledge of political philosophy to implement than your average council employee possesses and so PC policies just became 'jobsworth' decisions, and moreover Newsnight could have researched the translation issue at any time in the last 6 years and didn't.

- not only are we providing translation services to non-English speakers, last night JP had to translate ordinary English into public-school-speak for a member of the political class!

It seems most commenters here have a fixed view on the provision of translation services and immigrants' duty to integrate, and proceed from that to either praise or damn Newsnight's coverage.

I don't have a fixed view. Shocking perhaps, but I watched the program in the hope of being informed and educated (I choose those words very deliberately). My complaint is that Paxman's style reduced the capacity of the program to inform or educate. Perhaps it increased its capacity to entertain, but is that the point of Newsnight ? No.

Contrast this with the softly spoken approach of Nick Robinson in his recent question to George Bush. It was just provocative enough to tease out of Bush a response that told us huge amounts about his true state of mind.

I think Paxman has the capacity to be a better political journalist/ interviewer than Nick Robinson and he should be careful to preserve his integrity.

If we want an interviewer who merely mocks and abuses his interviewees, and makes them look stupid through careful editorial control, we'll give Sacha Baron Cohen a call.

there seems to be much confusion around ethnicity, culture and identity, white english is an ethnic group too but just larger and taken for granted so not mentioned, we all have ethnicity, culture is something more fluid and changes, hence cultural hybridity. language is power and failing to speak the language of the community in which you live will have an excluding effect, unless you remain self contained within an inner community, this acts as a useful mechanism initially but also in a wider sense keeps the community ring fenced, it is a two way process, as the item on newsnight tried to suggest, not having the tools to integrate fully is about full access to jobs, services, education etc and does not mean giving up your ethnic identity, people may feel they want to remain contained and may feel protected, if choice is an option?

Will pass on the Suffolk Murders, suffice to say it's horrific & the Media & Police are covering almost every aspect...They will catch this/these murderers vey soon I'm sure.

LINGUISTIC TRANLATION for all immigrants, migrants , was a disturbing story... wouldn't have known it existed on these scales if it hadn't been investigated by the Media.
How many of us taxpayers ...yes ,you & me.. were aware that this service being provided by the government cost upwards of 拢100,000,000 PA...(remote as in not in the studio) Minister Phil Woolas wouldn't give a figure.. but didn't dispute what was proffered...just made lots of angry sounds...very indignant that the programme would dare to ask....Jeremy Paxman faded him out on his last rant that this panders to the Right, never considired myself one of those..this coming from a hand-wringeling,panderingly liberal lefty Labour party makes me very mad.
The other party to same debate, a Muslim Human Rights Lawyer vociferously stated we were doing a great injustice, more harm than good, to those that couldn't speak English by enabling them unnecessarily to speak through a translator(except in special circumstances) saying it was taking away their incentive to learn English & INTEGRATE ... as recently promulgated by the PM..Mixed messages..something Labour is persistanly very good at.
Anecdotally, a Council spokesperson from Peterborough was seemingly very proud to have translators for 70 languages...did I mishear? I mean 70!..imagine the cost of keeping these linguists on standby... another immigrant from Asia was having counselling to give up smoking...which employed a translator, couldn't speak English...she had been here 3 years!!!& through the linguist said it was her RIGHT. Most people who were asked about the service...agreed it was a disincentive to learn the language. The Lawyer said it was not enshrined in the Human Rights Act to provide this service..common-sense when to provide should selectively prevail.

The Other story was about "call me Dave" Cameron party's position in the polling.. 1 year on... recent Populas had them 1 point above Labour....Not bgood enough! Dave..The Tories( my party at present?) should be way ahead... with a disgraced Labour government in their sights should be hammering /challenging them every which -way.. on....Alleged Sleaze, Education, NHS,Immigration,Homeland Security, Prisons, Criminality,PFI, Pensions,War in Iraq..Afghanistan & Reasoned arguments for these wars, Our STRETCHED, UNDER-FUNDED Fighting Services, the list goes on & on! AND I am so, so, fed up with hearing about Polyy Toynbee's Poverty & relative Poverty issues...she's the last person the Tories should be quoting! along with Hug a Hoodie(we learned last night this was never said by Cameron!)...Have always been an admirer of Ed Vasey's views... but last night he was wrong, but I think he knew that, flogging & horse comes to mind.
John ? from the Sun? had the right views & articulated them very well...do not have a clue what his personal politics are?... If I had been there ,would have argued along similar lines.We must get the Party back to OUR basic principles to stand a chance in the Elections against this present mob! & CHALLENGE..CHALLENGE this Cabinet before you lose more party members Mr Cameron.
This disgraced New Labour Government must go quickly before they ruin the UK... if it's not too late already!

I think it's worth pointing out that some of the people who benefit from translation and interpretation services are children; sometimes very young children. I know of instances where children as young as five have been expected to say goodbye to their parents at the school gates and to manage on their own without help from anyone who understands their language. These are often children who have undergone traumatic experiences before reaching this country, but their mothers cannot attend language classes unless their children are settled at school. This may be a minority of cases, but they are real and heartbreaking and it's sad to see so little recognition of them. There is, of course, a balance to be struck but your report gave these women and children no voice, and encouraged those who would deny them one.

Keeping women from Muslim communities from learning to speak English has been deliberately deployed my Muslim men to keep their women from accessing our modern liberal democracy, contraception being one very specific example of a right that these men would, without doubt, not want their women learning about in order to maintain their gender based power over them.

Many of their other human rights too remain inaccessible because of this deliberate demand that these women stay in doors unless accompanied by a male relative.

Furthermore, young girls from the Somali communities here are kept from accessing their right not to be genitally mutilated. In inner city state schools the sex and health education classes cover a wide range of facts and the aim, it is claimed, on the agenda for females is to "empower" them. AIDs is mentioned without fear of backlash, but there is no reference anywhere in this programme of enlightenment about female genital mutilation, (FGM), one would have though that that was a basic right for any girls to know. So why is it kept from them? Well, it's so that we do not upset this community, it is what THEY have demanded we do not mention.

I was angry when I saw a women interviewed who after being here for 25yrs could not speak any English. She blamed us or was made to speak those words, she was too afraid to show her face and we only have the translators words, but in fact this was a direct result of the demands made by the men in her culture, and the collusion, from fear of being labelled racist form the men in our culture.

We did a dirty deal with the ethnic patriarchs in order to prevent men-on-men violence. In that covert collusion we sold out on ethnic women and girls. The lily livered deal went like this:-

"You don't call us racist and we will allow you to treat your women in the manner to which you are accustomed"

This cowardly deal cost women and girls their lives as we went on to ignored "honour" killings, forced marriages, polygamy and the most abhorrent abominable abuse of all, FGM. This contravenes the UN declaration on the Rights of the child. We made it illegal, but it's just a piece of window dressing to make us look civilised in the face of the UN on Human Rights. In practice it is a crime that has total impunity. Not one single prosecution in the 30 years we have recognised this outrageous misogynist violence.

We have colluded with these ethnic males in order to ward off accusations of racism, and for them to maintain their much challenged and endangered male supremacy in this secular so called modern liberal democracy.

In the words of the Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch Somali women now under fear of he life:

Be proud of your modern liberal democracies

I for one am not ashamed of living in a culture that did not rip out my genitals when I was a child, that does not slit the throats of recalcitrant young women and force them into marriage, and does not humiliate my self esteem with polygamy I would like to share this freedom with all the other women who have come to this country full of hope for a better life. It's about time we challenged the men, both indigenous and ethnic, who have colluded to prevent this.

Ipswich is still being actively discussed in comments on Monday's blog entry. Perhaps a way is needed to Blog more frequently by subjects as well as by days' editions to help avoid important subjects seeming "left behind"?

The splash about translation did come over as terribly Daily Mail, which is unwelcome. That paper's ethos is evil. We do have absolute obligations to provide translation in legal procedings, and I can see no clinical or moral case for denying people translation in medical care. It seems likely that a properly organised translation system (as opposed to a haphazard voluntary one) employs people with language skills and helps them - as well as some they translate for - integrate into the economy, which must have some counterbalancing financial effect, as well as positive social ones.

What I would have questioned is whether the contracts under which these services are provided might be excessively profitable for "middle-men". Local government and the NHS have a terrible record of not making the best contract decisions, because the pressure is to make the services available rather than that they be the right ones as the users would see it, or economic. Although obviously availability is vital. Those making the decisions are rarely well informed (the key people are often experts in Public Health, and expertise in epidemics is not preparation for signing contracts for other health areas, however much they may think it so) and the nature of the contract is only made known after it is signed, for reasons of "commercial confidentiality". This is behind much poor hospital cleaning and consequent infection. Often there is only one viable supplier, who provides all the relevant advice too.

The cost of translation services in the NHS, and Newsnight primarily taking the tack that "these people are costing the NHS all this money", is far too reminiscent of the way patients are focused upon every time am expensive but vital new drug or procedure appears. The question is never why the drug or procedure costs so much, whether the price is inflated, either by profiteering or bloated regulatory requirements, whether the NHS could force the price down or buy better. The attention is on the vulnerable rather than the financial beneficiaries. That may be unfair. It may also be very lazy journalism.

Not that public expenditure (both over- and under-spending) should go unexamined, indeed it should be more so, and more promptly.

This was a disturbing report - because it was full of scaremongering myths and half-truths. For example:

1. 'Translation' is about the written word - when speaking people require INTERPRETATION.
2. Learning English can take a huge amount of time - I know this because I teach it. For people with little or no education in their own language it can take years, and even with a huge amount of effort, some people will never be fluent and be able to handle a medical appointment, for example. Interpretation is essential for such people, and can quite literally be a matter of life and death.
3. It is ironic to suggest that asylum-seekers and working migrants should learn English, when the government is withdrawing the entitlement to free ESOL classes for these groups. You can't insist that people learn English and thereby reduce the need for interpeters and at the same time deny people on low incomes the means to do this.

It would be interesting to do a comparative study with UK residents overseas and the extent to which they integrate and learn English. How many UK citizens living in ex-patriot communities in, say, Spain bother to learn Spanish?

This was an irresponsible piece of reporting and will only fuel racism. Shame on the 大象传媒.

LABOUR:

Very interesting program tonight.

Phil Woolas - Minister for Local Government [1] - states that the government position - they don't want to reveal anything that the 'far right' will use ... rubbish

It is the governments duty to ensure that it knows what taxpayers monies are spent on & how much is spent.

Once again, Labour TAX & SPENDS, it over taxes & under delivers (takes the money like a dodgy internet company & does not deliver the goods as advertised).

New Labour may have been elected & dominating office, but its Old Labour & pure socialist policies at the chalk face.

Another good example - translation costs.

FOREIGN NATIONALS:

The New Labour government 鈥︹��

- Doesn't know how many foreign nationals are in the country

- Doesn't know which foreign nationals are the country

- Doesn't know what is the impact of foreign nationals on our national available services *

* translation cost is the latest cost, take up of housing & social benefits, CJS impact, economy & jobs etc.

The left only promote the perceived BENEFITS of so many unaccountable foreign nationals, never the flip side (which is prevalent in any issue).

TRANSLATION SERVICES:

Mark Easton (bbc) estimated national cost of 拢100 million plus.

The New Labour government does not know how much is spent (typical)

The Islington Council is a typical socialist meets liberal left manifestation of 'multiculturalism' gone mad [2a]

The example of the Turkish women (in the UK for 5yrs) being given an interpreter too help her give up smoking is pure wrong, what about spending such monies on essential services for all, rather than RIGHT ON services to just a few.

For an example of wasted monies at the cost of other programs - the New Labour Government and/or Islington Council (Lib Dem & Labour) are to cut 拢1.4 million from a City and Islington College budget which means that 25% of its courses in literacy, numeracy, IT and English as a Second Language (collectively known as Skills for Life courses), will have to be closed [2b]

List of orgs, offering translation services for Islington Council [3a] [3b] [3c]

Look at the rates for translation services for Islington Council [3d]

Even old 'Red Ken' interested in translation & interpretation services for GLA [4]

MULTICULTURALISM - GRAVY TRAIN:

There are clearly many with a vested political interest (minority pressure groups) & those with economic interest (translators, lawyers, assistance groups) whose very existence is reliant on:

- incoming stream of foreign nationals
- foreign nationals being kept in separatist communities.

'Multiculturalism' is discredited & has failed, just that those who touted in & those who rely on it, still have not caught on.

HUMAN RIGHTS?

Q. who is deciding what is a legal Human Right?

We have organisations going beyond their min legal commitments - why - anything to do with those who have political agendas & see their work as a means to ends and/or a desire to justify their existence & job role.

Whether its local councils & agencies spending limited resources reinforcing minorities isolation & separatist existence OR organisations like BA stripping away rights from the majority indigenous population, whilst 'safeguarding' the rights of minority religions.

SUMMARY:

Tonight Jeremy Paxman was a real rottweiler - no prisoners - quite happy for him to go after an evasive minister (nice to see someone from the government actually show up)

Most Brits support the notion of beneficial immigration & genuine asylum seeking - both at tolerable & sustainable levels. But at the very least, its been understood that integration was not a discretionary luxury but a mandatory social necessity for relative cultural peace & harmony.

But some have because of vested political aims & fiscal rewards, are engaged in processes against greater levels of integration.

Again, to any given solution, its not now much is spent, but how its spent to achieve what's intended & desirable.

Since 1997, Blair over promised & Brown over taxed & under delivered.

Soon, bereft of Blair & his style/spin, New Labour will wither under Brown.

As the British electorate has come too know at its cost, against virtually any measure of money spent & actual impact 鈥�..

鈥�. New Labour does not do delivery :(

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2a]
[2b]
[3a]
[3b]
[3c]
[3d]
[4]

Quality Journalism?

As someone who is both riled by last nights programme and a blog virgin, I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone and post my first comment.

Several people above have hit the nail on the head with regards to the shocking performance by Mr Paxman last night (specifically Nick White (18) and David Horton (25)).

I know we're all feeling the festive spirit at the moment but to see JP turn the show into a pantomime was a farce. His aggressive and disrespectful tone towards Phil Woolas seemed way over the top, especially as the "Human Rights Lawyer" was treated with courtesy and allowed to repeatedly make his point. I dont think Phil Woolas was able to complete a single sentence!There seemed to be a definite agenda in the air and as a viewer it left me feeling uncomfortable.

If Paxman is of the view that his antics are more integral to the programme than the news itself then somebody needs to have a word in his ear. Dont get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for Paxman and think he has handled some fantastic interviews in the past, however last night he seemed out of control.

To conclude my maiden blog I would like to echo one of the comments above. Its sad that we're all going on about 'the cost of translation' whilst the program's main story (that being one of the worst serial killers ever in Britain is on the loose) gains little or no attention on this page.

Incidentally, 拢100m is not an "overwhelming burden" for a GDP as huge as ours, especially if it enables a significant number of people to access local news and services before they are proficient in our language.

I thought the translation piece was confused, contradictory and very incomplete.

For a start, you made the point that there was no incentive to learn English as a result of this spending by interviewing a woman who said she couldn't go out of the house because she couldn't speak english.

Then you reported on the cost of translation services, without thinking about the cost of not providing them. You may save a few quid not trasnalating an AIDS leaflet, but what does it cost to treat someone who then doesn;t get the advice?

You have a human rights lawyer moaning at the cost of translation in a asian newagents - I'm guessing those newspapers were not written by english people and translated, but by asians in their own language.

And finally we are shown a GP surgery on Brick Lane where again, I suspect the doctor was asian, rather than translating fore other people's benefit.

The piece also spoke constanlty of "spending tax payers money" neglecting to mention that a pretty high proportion of council tax payers in thre Brick Lane area are from ethinc minorities. I frankly think it is perfectly reasonable that they have a say in how the money is spent, and that is is spent to benefit those who gave the money.

Then Jeremy gets on a ridiculously high horse because a Minister doesn't know how much local services spend on translation. Some of us believe local decisions should be made at local level - and it is perfectly OK for the Minister to say that he doesn't know. Or does Whitehall have to know best about everything.

Siddique Khan made the only sensible point in the entire piece, that we need to review whether provision of translation puts people off learning english or helps them too. Working that out will be tricky - but not helped by riubbish like this.

The Daily Mail does scaremongering better than Newsnight - do decent analysis or don;t bother please.

Thank you for your report on the costs of translation, it makes a very refreshing change from the media consensus approach to anything that raises questions about the "PC" agenda. I note the complaints you have recieved largely come from those who make a handsome living from this wasteful new activity. I had almost given up on seeing any news stories on the "MSM" that conflicted with the consensus.

Has there has been a slight change in editorial policy to now at least raise issues of concern to the majority of taxpayers? For example, can we hope perhaps to see stories in future on for example the forthcoming billions that will probably be wasted on the Galileo project and actually how this fits in with the road pricing debate (they are better ways to ration road space), or the 拢800 million rippoff from UK electricity consumers under the EUTS scheme, which has done zilch to reduce carbon emmisions but has simply benefitted French and German taxpayers? Or is anything that questions EU policies still offlimits?

In post 55, Jenny thought there is 鈥渕oral case for denying people translation in medical care鈥�. No one is saying people should be 鈥榙enied鈥� translation. What is objectionable is that other people are forced to pay for it. That鈥檚 the moral case against it. We have to remember that immigration is meant to improve Britain, it鈥檚 not meant to be a charitable service to the world. What鈥檚 the point of allowing immigration if it costs us more than it鈥檚 worth?

If immigrants cannot speak English, they shouldn鈥檛 be here.

The exception is humanitarian asylum. If a genuine asylum seeker cannot speak English, that鈥檚 different. But in return for our hospitality, they should be expected to learn English as soon as possible. If a tourist wants to use a service, they should pay for it themselves. The British tax-payer should not be forced to pay for them, either. Never forget that tax is force.

As for the issue being 鈥榯erribly Daily Mail鈥�, what鈥檚 wrong with that? There鈥檚 a reason why 10 times as many people buy the Mail every day than the Independent. The 大象传媒 should not be afraid to tackle issues that concern the majority in case they upset the Guardian-reading minority.

In post 56, James Drummond complained that translation is inaccurate and interpretation is correct. As well as being a pedantic exercise in semantics, according to MSN dictionary it鈥檚 also wrong. Translation is not confined to the written word.

Also, it鈥檚 completely irrelevant what British immigrants in Spain do. If Spain or anywhere else has bad policy, that is no reason why we too should have bad policy.

"More resources need to go into teaching immigrants to speak English" the minister says, yet the college I worked at last year teaching English (ESOL) had its funding cut by 拢1.2 million, resulting in fewer teachers being employed to teach fewer classes- I am no longer working. My local college has 400 students on the waiting list for ESOL classes, but is not employing any new teachers. From my experience, the government has realised that ESOL classes cost money, and are cutting back on funding, if anything.

Does Phil Woolas MP, Minister for Local Government think it's clever to constantly avoid Paxman's questions??
Perhaps if the MP 1. Answered the reasonable questions asked and 2. Knew his facts then the interview would have been less heated! Do MPs think it's clever not to answer or what?? Well done Paxman for asking the questions I would have wanted to ask which is, after all, the job of a TV/Radio interviewer.
I can see both sides of the arguement but when I lived abroad myself I didn't expect anyone to provide transalations into English.

I should not have thought it beyond the wit of even a government minister to work out that he might be asked how much the translation costs came to, and have an answer ready, even if it was just what he finally got needled into saying, "I don't know". He should have said that the first time he was asked the question. Instead, he trotted out the statements he had been briefed with and learnt by heart, and tried to divert the course of the interview on to his own agenda. We pay Paxman to needle these people for us because we can't get at them ourselves - let him get on with the job.

Nice to see newsnight reporting issues that they would not have dared even mention not so long ago.Clearly the 大象传媒 awakening to all cracks in the immigration and multicultural dream and the reporting of the PC brigades sacred cows have been a welcome change to their usual biased line.The report on the cost of translation to the tax payer is no real surprise.The only dissenting voices who complained about the newsnight report will no doubt have a vested interest in translation services.I can just imagine the Guardian readership choking on their coco pops reading about the 大象传媒 report on the cost of translation cost and implications. No doubt the guardian will have a quick retort suggesting the newsnight team are a propaganda arm of the BNP and will have a picture of paxman in nazi uniform and lyrics to a recently penned song provided by billy bragg called "goebbels newsnight fascist scum"..

A small point, maybe, but Mark Easton twice spoke of a "trebling" of spending on translation services over a graphic showing a 300% rise (which would be a quadrupling). They can't both be right, so which to trust?

I like Newsnight: it's so much better than the Mickey Mouse dross dished out on 大象传媒1; but schoolboy errors like these undermine the credibility of reports.

Do Newsnight need to brush up on their Maths as well as Physics?

If spending on translation increased by 300% it has quadrupled not tripled.

i.e. If I spend 拢1 and this goes up by 300% then I am now spending 拢4.

Just say it has quadrupled and forget the stupid percentages.

I鈥檝e always supported the Palestinians and I opposed the Iraq invasion but I think the whole Britishness issue is coming down to class. There is such a huge economic gulf now between the upper and lower classes 鈥� e.g. in terms of downward pressure on wages, professional salary levels are protected by the State.

The world of ideas is not so simplistically divided between 鈥榟elpful鈥� and 鈥榙angerous鈥� (Phil Woolas) and it is this binary PC thinking that leads to ethnic fundamentalism (and environmental fundamentalism). Posts like no. 52 鈥� sorry to single you out, just an example 鈥� are missing the point, this is not about either-or, and of course children have to be protected, it is a question of degree. So, I agree with posts 60 and 61 that we need well-reasoned policies and flexible implementation, not 鈥榦ne procedure fits all鈥�. So, JP is not the pantomime, party politics is 鈥� who do we vote for now that we are caught between ethnic fundamentalism and environmental fundamentalism?

The great strength of Judaeo Christianity and Hindu Buddhism is the principle of dialectic thought 鈥� the ability to doubt and self-criticise (and yes, ridicule 鈥� it鈥檚 very healthy). That is why JP鈥檚 style of journalism is essential. It was 鈥榥ice鈥� that got us to where we are now 鈥� trying to claw back bits of our culture that we didn鈥檛 mean to give up. Sure, culture evolves, but those joining have to jump on board, not say 鈥榮top and change yourselves and then we鈥檒l come in鈥�. Urban language is brilliant but that is quite different from using words like englishazised when a perfectly useful word anglicised already exists (NN Dec 8th).

Invading Iraq was a mistake but no western influence made Iraqis blow each other up in such huge numbers, that is their choice of reaction. As for Palestine, despite a slightly greedy attitude to land, the Jews have given the world the most amazing gift of humour and I鈥檓 not giving that up for the misery spread by mad mullahs, schickser that I am!! And speaking of humour, people like Lenny Henry, Jee Esien (Little Miss Jocelyn), and Hardeep Singh Kohli (Meet the Magoons) absolutely embody Britishness.

Happy Xmas, Yo!

Mark Easton's feature made me angry but hardly surprised me. As someone who has worked on a largely voluntary and independent basis with asylum seekers, I agree with everything Mr Rahman said. This politically correct pandering acts as a disincentive to people to learn English and also creates a dependency culture, I have witnessed it myself.

Many of the individuals and organisations involved in what I refer to as the "asylum industry" rely upon the dependency of immigrants in order to justify their jobs and further funding. When I saw evidence of this in many organisations in Hull and elsewhere I walked away from the scene of nepotism and corruption, that is why my "work" has been largely independent. I have walked out of several paid positions due to such factors.

On the issue of language and one's location, if my dream of retiring to a free united Kurdistan is realised, I will be speaking Kurdish and living in a largely Kurdish manner. That is basic respect for the people whose country I would be living in.

I agree that we often need translation for medical and legal situations but, given that the failure of people living in the country to learn English is (quite rightly in my opinion) taken by many native British as evidence of a lack of desire to integrate, we are providing ammunition for the far right by sustaining this absurd practice.

Well done Jeremy for the interview you conducted with Phil Woolas.
It's about time that ministers who are only too pleased to appear on television to promote their political views are called to task for refusing to answer very pertinant questions.
Phil Woolas's attitude towards Jeremy Paxmans questions was disgraceful and showed both his ignorance on the question of translation expenditure and his total disdain for the viewing public i.e. those of us who pay his wages.

Well done, Newsnight, for exposing this waste of taxpayers money but I have to agree with the comments on Jeremy Paxton's style of interviewing. As I am a benefits adviser, I have been aware of this issue for a number of years. It is doing great harm to the intergration of immigrants. There is a simple solution. To get British Citizenship, the applicant has to pass a written English test. To get Indefinite Leave to Remain, commonly known as "settled status", there is no requirement to speak English. If this was changed, the problem would be solved. Simple.

What will your next anti-immigrant story be about. I've got a suggestion for you, how about an 'expose' on NHS funds being used to investigate and treat immigrant specific ailments, such as Sickle Cell Anemia.

Having a plethora of different languages being spoken even in the provincial regions is a sign of Britain as a multicultural melting pot? I think a multicultural hornet鈥檚 nest would be a more accurate description. Cramming the diversity of the whole entire planet onto just one small island like Britain is irresponsible. Look at the growing body of evidence on how diversity causes trouble, not just in Britain, but in multicultural countries all over the world. Last month, the Australian Police were patrolling the beaches yet again, in a bid to try and avoid a repeat of the race riots they had there last year. In 2005 there were the lengthy riots in France and even riots in Russia. Not to mention the Birmingham race riots and London bombings here in Britain. Hurricane Katrina revealed that America certainly isn鈥檛 a multicultural utopia, and when the innocent Brazilian man got shot on the Tube, there were people saying about how Brazilian police officers often shoot innocent black people over in Brazil all the time, so Brazil isn鈥檛 a multicultural utopia either.

It鈥檚 almost as if there鈥檚 somebody trying to get a message through to us, trying to tell us that all this diversity & multiculturalism doesn鈥檛 work and just causes trouble.

Yet, despite all this, in their infinite wisdom, the British government continues to try and force diversity onto Britain, continually trying to ram the square peg into the round hole even when it鈥檚 increasingly clear that it鈥檚 never going to fit. So why are they so hell bent on trying to impose this diversity ideology? Economically, the mass immigration that causes all this diversity provides plentiful cheap labour, in a modern, semi-legitimate alternative to slavery; but is it really worth tearing up the fabric of society simply in the greedy pursuit of the almighty dollar?

David Davis MP says that 鈥渁 voluntary apartheid is being created鈥� and Anne Cryer MP repeated this on Newsnight, saying that neither the British community nor Asian immigrant community in her constituency want anything to do with each other. I would emphasise the word VOLUNTARY in that. This apartheid isn鈥檛 being imposed from the top-down by a government, like how it was in South Africa. It is coming from the ground upwards. It is the 鈥減easants鈥� themselves, who are voting with their feet and rejecting the diversity that their government has sought to impose on them in the last 50 years. Isn鈥檛 it about time that the political elite admitted that the most of the 鈥減lebs鈥� don鈥檛 want all this diversity and multiculturalism and never even asked for it in the first place?

The pro-multiculturalists should hang their heads in shame with what they have done to Britain. By imposing their diversity lifestyle choice on the whole nation, they鈥檝e transformed a politically stable, united country that had spent centuries overcoming its tribal differences, into a diverse and increasingly unstable multicultural hornet鈥檚 nest, that now has the potential to become a flashpoint for religious/ethnic conflict. All the ingredients are in place and there are extremists out there who want to stir them. But think about it, who should we blame here? Those who want to stir the ingredients or those who put all the right ingredients for conflict to take place in the same bowl in the first place? It鈥檚 like giving a 5 year old a box of matches and locking them in a room full of fireworks. If it all goes up in flames, do we blame the 5 year old, or the adult that created the situation? History has shown many times before what humans are capable of doing to each other and over the last 50 years, the pro-multiculturalists have created a situation which is tempting history to repeat itself.

This report was nothing other than a party political broadcast for the BNP, sorry I meant New Labour.

The assumption of the programme that those who can speak English are more integrated is deeply flawed. The majority of residents in Britain speak English perfectly well but a significant number of them remain socially isolated and excluded. And I am not just referring to immigrants here.

This programme did nothing to address reasons why people are not integrated in British society but instead gave succour to every racist bigot in the country. Shame on you Newsnight.

What will your next anti-immigrant story be about. I've got a suggestion for you, how about an 'expose' on NHS funds being used to investigate and treat immigrant specific ailments, such as Sickle Cell Anemia.

In parliament, Margaret Beckett recently spoke gushingly about a multi-cultural Europe (while John R, the "Bulldog", was closing immigation opportunities).

This to me implies severe double-talk,on the part of the UK.

As a Welshman, I used to get annoyed by English persons who chose to live in Wales, and who complained about Welsh/English-language road signs, etc.. I learned to live with this.

I now live in Bulgaria (my own choice, and in major part bcause I was getting fed up with "Little Britain" attitudes). I appreciate the fact that, here, as I learn the language, I can obtain English translations of official documents that may assist me. I do not know how much this service costs the Bulgarian government, but am grateful for this.

I agree there may well be some sectors that do not wish to integrate in UK society, and that's a shame. But, on the other hand, one's native language is a fundamental and intrinsic right and feeling of identity- to everyone.

In the report, someone mentioned the cost of UK translation services: put them against useless defence spending, or the sums spent on exravaganza such as the Millennium Dome, and then examine the benefits (to everyone) of such useful facilities.

Wake up, Little Englanders! Colonialism is supposed to be consigned to history, by now.

Yours,
JPD.

Good points already made at #11, #18, #28 and most others along those lines. And yes, please get your figures right (RE #67 etc).

Having lived in various countries (and learned their languages) I do think that Britain is astonishingly generous when it comes to translating official information but this report was far too opinionated from the outset.

The example of the Turkish woman was very odd. The question of whether it is sensible to spend money on such a service should be put to the person who has decided to provide it, not to the one who claims it. Those representing the 'official' line were very poor, both in the report and the studio. I was a little surprised that Jeremy Paxman got quite so irritated but the MP was insufferably smug... The combination, with the lawyer ranting away but presenting little in the way of facts or numerical evidence himself, was rather difficult to digest and certainly didn't favour reasoned debate.

More facts and fewer opinions would be welcome. For instance:
- What arguments do those responsible for taking the decisions to provide such services put forward? Where do they draw the line? Is there a difference in services provided from one NHS body to another, one council to another, etc.?
- Have any of these bodies undertaken a cost/benefit analysis? How does the cost of translation compare to other expenditure by the same bodies, for example how much in percentage terms is, if I remember correctly, 拢300000 in the budget of the Peterborough police force? Have the NHS, councils & co. selected core areas in which they feel translation is indispensable?
- Who IS responsible for providing translation services, central or local administration? If it is the Home Office, astonishing given regional disparities, could the willingness of local councils to translate even the most mundane information have something to do with the fact that they are not (directly) paying for it? Or are they paying the home office for using its services?
Etc. etc. etc.

It seems that a few people think the article concerning the cost/value of the translation services paid for out of public funds is either
a) racist in some way,
or
b) is irrelevant, as there is massive financial incompetence in other uses of public funds.

I didn't see any aspect of racism in the article as the subject and substance of the article is clearly the cost/value analysis, not the attribution of superiority or inferiority to any particular group or sub-group. The previous posts which raised this accusation have provided no factual evidence to substantiate their accusation, and if they can't provide any to support their invective I can only suppose that they have
a) vested interests that leads them to be manipulative in raising the issue of racism
and/or
b) they resort to invective in an effort to prevent any logical discussion of this and similar issues which do not meet with their 'oh so morally superior' approval, clearly revealing their predispositions.

As to the idea that there are more wasteful uses of the public purse, well, that may be correct, but is not a reason to disregard this article. In my opinion this was an informative article because:

a) British citizens who have been resident many years still cannot communicate in English

b) the scale of the public costs involved are not known, and therefore it is impossible to know if the money is well spent

c) I don't know about the rest of you, but I think something more than 拢100 million is a lot of money, and as it is public money those spending it should be accountable to the public.

And the article was timely and could have been explored even further because:

d) I was not aware that the Government had cut funding for courses to learn English until I read about it in some of the previous posts. This approach seems peculiar and even counter-productive given the Government is at least notionally aware that we have an increased number of foreign EU citizens coming to work in the UK. I would have expected that MP to have been challenged on this issue.

大象传媒 10 o'clock news gazumped you on your own report. What's going on?

I saw a tigher version of the translation tangle at 10pm. Why should I bother watching bother if you repeat each other?

In response to #79. You make many assumptions in your post. How do you know that all these people that use the translation services do not speak English? Many of the agencies use are dealing with complicated matters. Even in their mother togue they would find them complicated, But maybe they find them just a little less complicated. Would you begrudge a Briton who has reading difficulties being given assistance?

Again agreeing with Nicholas White. The piece on translation could have been an interestng polemic to start a debate. This should have then been followed up by someting more thoughtful and discursive. Newsnight and Mr Paxman in particualr must give space for these sort of issues, otherwise we have a cockpit. Clearly some find this entertaining but perhaps we should just tune into the boxing? Mr Paxman in particular increasingly becomes his own cartoon. If you can't get a considered discussion of an issue like this on Newsnight where can you?

I don't know how JLDavies (Blog 77)can call English speakers "little Englanders" when their native language is evolving into "Globish", the language of the computer industry, air traffic and other international activities. I have not learnt Welsh here in rural Wales because I'm told by my next door neighbours and others it is a family language. I have learnt more Greek in six months living there than I have in as many years here in Wales. That is because Greeks wanted to teach me their language wherever I went- down the market, in the Kafenion, and they say "Kali Mera" to strangers with pride and a smile and know what philoxenia means.
Here in rural Wales there is residual bitterness over the mistreatment of the Welsh by English speaking school teachers in the 19th century and by the Tory Party in the 20th century.
Yet the most brilliant speakers and writers of English to my mind are Welshmen - Richard Burton, Dylan Thomas, R S Thomas, Nye Bevan.
Its the "Little Welshmen" here that are the problem not the big-hearted talented ones who accept the sound of any language well expressed or crafted and have always loved and shaped our national communal language of English.

Oh dear, more ammunition for the ignorant and stupid. Those whingers and moaners who are happy to have spent their lives living off the backs of the labours of the poor workers in poor countries now hate to see us repaying our debts.

We who have forced through invasion others to adopt our language, adopt our economic dominance and where we now expect to enjoy cheap holidays and second homes.

It's great that we offer transaltion services, most of the countries I have visited translate everything into English and their populations speak at least two if not four or five tongues. Shame on Newsnight, normal arrogant British rubbish,free trade yes free movement of capital yes, free movement of people and equal global rights - no chance.

Frankly, I think comments such as those of Paul Murphy's help further to convince me that in this debate, as with so many others concerned with immigration, integration, multi-culturalism, etc, we are allowing ourselves to be constrained by the vile racism of the NF, etc. Namely, we have become afraid to express reasonably held views for fear of being lumped in with the Right wing thugs. I thought the views of the Human Rights lawyer were entirely fair and sensible, not least because he was himself from an ethnic minority. His thesis that the present system is 180 degrees wrong in its presumption that translation should always be given, rather than it should NOT be unless a good case could be made, seems entirely sensible to me. So, let's forget the emotion in this and look at it cooly and sensibly. For whatever the report showed, it certainly didn't seem a fair and rational approach. I beleve most people would think it entirely fair to expect anyone coming to live in Britain to become fluent in English within a reasonable period of time. Unlimited translation services can only tend to discourage this: that's not racist, its simply a logical deduction.

Ian, No 85, so well and succinctly put, please address No 84 in a similar vein because I am at a loss to understand this and the other posts that just seem to want to condemn our nation - have we really behaved so much worse than other countries or have we like everyone else been a part of history?

Please come in No 86.

I haven't got a clue what you are on about.

I live in Thailand. If I want any translations done I have to pay for them. If I want to learn Thai I either do it myself from books and tapes or go to school, all of which I have to pay for. Why should the British government spend my money, (yes, my money as I pay several hundred pounds in UK taxes every month) on translating for those who choose to live in the UK but take the easy option of not learning English. Once the government go down the road of translating one thing into one other language then they open the floodgates for translating everything else into whatever language someone wants. A minefield. A very expensive minefield.

The 大象传媒/Newsnight report on taxpayers' cash being used to fund translations was very good, but did not go far enough - hopefully there'll be another report soon about the cost to the taxpayer of the 大象传媒 website offering NEWS in 33 languages (see 大象传媒 homepage).

Excellent program! finally the mighty 大象传媒 is showing their real agenda. Next we can probably expect Nick Griffin to replace Mr. Paxton. There is nothing like a bit of of unbalanced and scaremongering reporting on a very sensitive issue. It is surprising that this report comes from a country where hardly anyone of their citizens speaks an other language than English and certainly expects everyone where ever they go to understand their superior language. This kind of report only appeals to the lowest instincts of the audience, to their fear of anything foreign and different. Shame on you, 大象传媒, and I would expect you to maybe broadcast a report on the contribution of us immigrants in making this island a better place to be.

Hi Ajer (87), I'm here. What is it that you would like me to clarify?

I just couldn't believe the tone of this piece or in Jeremy Paxman's voice as he spat out the word 'forigners'.

I worked at a GP's sugery specifically for asylum seekers and so we used the interpreting service ^ a lot^.

The vast majority of people using the service are not long stay immigrants who 'can't be bothered to learn English' but men, women and children who have been raped and tortured and are fleeing for their lives with massive physical and emotional injuries.

It was a totally unbalanced and irresponsible report.

Translation services should only be provided if they are for the benefit of the UK, e.g. immigrants with needed or specialised skills, or to ascertain necessary facts in the interests of public safety. Money should not be spent on teaching people a language they should take the time to develop on their own. If they are bright enough to take a ticket to the UK, then they are smart enough to learn basic English

#92, the film was not about short-term asylum seekers. It was about long-term economic migrants. Like the Turkish woman who had been here for six years.

Foreigners shouldn't be here if they can't speak English unless: 1) They are tourists, and don't expect British taxpayers to foot the bill for anything. 2) They are asylum seekers, in which case they have a duty to learn English ASAP.

It's that simple.

Munkeytrousers, hello again.

It's not good practice to bring into an argument a highly emotive and exceptional aspect. I'm not saying that abused and fleeing asylum seekers are exceptional, sadly there are far too many abused people in desperate situations.

It is essential that these people are treated with the utmost care and respect, that they are given time to tell their horror stories and that a translator is there to help all the way through their desperate distress. No one is expecting them to learn English on arrival, and no is so mean as to not wish them the availability of a translator. Yo do protest too much!

That is not what is being complained about here and you are posturing an absurd position in order I suspect to set up a specious claim of racism.

What is wrong, in my opinion, simply because it consolidates separateness which if you look at my post above affects women's human right disproportionately and is part and parcel of this insidious racism called multiculturalism, is the way in which the ethnic patriarchs have colluded with our own to keep these women without the English language.

There are women who have lived in this country for over 30 years and have never been allowed out without a male escort and they have never been allowed to learn English. It was and is their own patriarchs who have maintained this ignorance of the language here so that they could maintain control of their women.

These are the people who we should not be colluding with anymore, morally over and above the bill they are leaving for the country to pay.

I would like to put a different slant on this translation issue.
I teach literacy and have had a number of white British students who can barely read and would have trouble understanding council and other such informative literature. If they need to read something they get a family member or a friend to help - and come to adult literacy classes in the hope that one day they can do it for themselves. Some of these students have many other problems in their lives and give up classes before their reading skills are firmly establised. I often wonder how they make out in the world.
Surely then, the only way forward for ALL communities is Education, Education, Education!

POST 95 - The item mentioned NHS spending on interpreting services across the board.

And these "foreigners", economic migrants, you speak of make their own tax contribution too, don鈥檛 they?

Hello Pippop, you make an incorrect assumption. If I thought the item was racist I would have said so. These are not black and white issues and although the quality of journalism is declining and the style of delivery on the 'serious' 大象传媒 news broadcasts is beyond parody at times I see (or have seen) no consistency such as with the of the explicit racism on the Today forums.

What I said is that I thought it was "unbalanced and irresponsible."

Munkeytrousers sorry if I missunderstood.

To Number 86. Yes Britain is vastly different to other countries. We have wiped out indigenous communities around the world in our expansion and forced our language on others from Aboriginals, Masai, Hindus, Native Americans etc. I see road signs, newspapers, TV and just about everything else In English in other countries. Let's see this in the bigger picture. We live miles beyond our sustainable limits and paying some of the costs back in translation costs is a good step to restoration of the imbalance

May I remind you of our fellow countrymen living in France, Spain or Cyprus without speaking a word of the local languages and putting strain on their public services?

In response to Stanton. P.:

No , you may not, not for any real consideration. There is enough of a problem in trying to get relevant factual information from our own central and local government functionaries without someone raising the pointless, distracting and irrelevant issue of what other governments do.

a) It is not relevant to what is happening in the UK. If you want to prove it is, then provide a link to show that those countries have some relevant reciprocal arrangement with the UK to provide such services.

b) If it is an issue for the citizens of those countries then they can take it up with their political representatives.

Ref chris #100

Ah, you sound like a diehard liberal lefty who believes in cultural & economic reparation (blank cheque) to the rest of the world.

Should we demand similar from the Romans?

Seems your in love with hating the country whose historical accomplishment & flaws/failures, have actually produced & led too its current progressive democratic society, comrade?

Interesting lefty post though - oozing agenda for the serial protester :)

vikingar