大象传媒

大象传媒.co.uk

Talk about Newsnight

Latest programme

Thursday, 18 January, 2007

  • Newsnight
  • 18 Jan 07, 05:42 PM

markthompson_203.jpgHow will the licence fee settlement affect the 大象传媒's programming? Big Brother racism row latest; we follow the cocaine trail from leaf to nostril; how green can blue chip companies ever be? And as Peter Hain makes a punt for the job of Deputy Prime Minister, David Grossman assesses the other runners and riders.

Comments  Post your comment

  • 1.
  • At 06:56 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Brian J Dickenson wrote:

So dear old Beeb didn't get the full award, how sad!
I do hope that this will mean they will have to use their imagination and come up with good programming, instead of endless repeats of repeats of repeats,,,,,,,,etc,etc,etc.

  • 2.
  • At 07:02 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Brian J Dickenson wrote:

Big Brother,,,,,,,,WOW.
I have never actually watched this, never have been a voyeur.
However, one can not avoid the the explosion of so called racist comments.
Maybe I'm a cynic, but this program always manages to grab headlines and so enhances the viewing figures. I believe this to be just another ploy. I wonder how much money has been paid out to the participants.

The main matter with the greener bluechips is that reducing carbon emissions has finally made it to the top of the political agenda. This means that there will be investments made which means that it will soon be the top of the political agenda.

It's now a case that bluechip companies will not be able to afford to not be carbon neutral by 2010. At least they say that this is the plan, it's a shame that we will have to wait a few more years to see if this is really the case.

What I want to know is what this will mean for the nuclear power market?

Dear Newsnight,

A key component of the 'exciting developments' at the 大象传媒 that Mark Thompson refers to is its online offering, with more and more programmes and services available on demand.

I applaud this and there is no doubt that the 大象传媒's website has since its inception been one of the world's greatest resources for information, education and entertainment.

However, the one aspect of this that makes my blood boil is that my dear friends in Australia can watch Jools Holland or Top Gear etc online for free, just like I can; except they aren't licence fee payers.

Here in the UK we are compelled to pay the licence fee and threatened with draconian penalties for non-payment. I am prepared to accept this and even defend it, to a degree, as I am a big fan of what the 大象传媒 does. However, why (oh why), can the 大象传媒 not charge non-licence holders for this privilege?

I believe very strongly that www.bbc.co.uk should have all of its multimedia content in a secure area that requires at least a valid licence fee number to access it. Clearly some UK licence holders will choose to share theirs with friends abroad, but I see no reason why I should be subsidising in any way this mine of entertainment for the rest of the world.

Regards,
JvB

  • 5.
  • At 08:57 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Leslie Dellow wrote:

Oh dear, the 大象传媒 are going to have to live without a licence fee increase galloping ahead of inflation, are they? How sad. However will they manage? Is my memory deceiving me, or is it just two or three years back that they had thumping great increases running way ahead of inflation? And now they are down to their last few pence.

  • 6.
  • At 09:30 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

'Jailed radical Islamic cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri has been told to pay back more than 拢1m in legal aid spent defending him against race-hate charges' [1]

Who says justice is dead, let alone without a sense of humour :)

Those declaring BB racist should take note.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]

I feel sorry for Jade ... she is being abused by the BB producers ... it is appalling. Newsnight has joined in with her demonisation ... she is the sad truth of contemporary English culture and as such provides a convenient scapegoat through which we can purge ourselves of our own prejudices. That eviction vote should not be allowed to take place. To paraphrase Alan Bennett in the LRB I have never felt so ashamed to be English ... not even in the Thatcher years.

  • 8.
  • At 11:05 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Ivan Andrews wrote:

Justin got that outfit for seventy-five quid? He was robbed...

  • 9.
  • At 11:09 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • bill haylor wrote:

The newsnight page is too complicated to post a comment so I will go away never to return.

Bill

  • 10.
  • At 11:15 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Chris Hunt wrote:

So the 大象传媒 aren't getting all the money they asked for. Great. Maybe that means that they'll start to look into the money they waste every day, such as on Jonathan Ross's salary, the new graphics on Match of the Day that stop working when teams score more than 4 goals, Garth Crooks (what does he do!), sending far too many people to Australia to cover the cricket (Manish Bhasin was on air for no more than 5 minutes each day during the test matches), using two newsreaders on the 6 o'clock news when one newsreader can handle the 10 o'clock bulletin, the nonsense of scheduling two-part programmes across Sunday and Monday evenings which means that people can't watch them, then finding out that the programmes don't have a scheduled repeat, the programmes that get shown via "the red button" which people don't know about because they aren't properly covered in Radio Times.

  • 11.
  • At 11:18 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • David Bestwick wrote:

That's right Mr Thompson - hit them where they hurt the most. The 大象传媒 is held in highest regard for its drama and children's programmes, so these are exactly the areas that 大象传媒 management will threaten to weild the greatest cuts. You are right - the money would be much better spent on making copy cat programmes like "Just the two of us" available on wrist watches via 3G technology!

  • 12.
  • At 11:21 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Jaime wrote:

The idea that capitalism can't be the model used to combat climate change is simply wishful thinking by old anti capitalists - the fact is that industry and commerce are responding far more quickly and with more effect than government and non profit organizations.
The future can only be changed with public demand driving profit making companies to change - other organisations have a role to play (government could link farm subsidies to production of biofuel crops for example),but without big buisness taking part there will not be the change needed.

  • 13.
  • At 11:28 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Dave wrote:

Re Licence Fee
Imagine the 大象传媒 did not exist.Does anyone really believe that in this internet and digital age that were anyone to propose the creation of a broadcasting organisation funded by a tax levied under threat of imprisonment that anybody would take such a proposal seriously?I can see no justification for the continual existence of a tax funded 大象传媒.It is an absurdity.

  • 14.
  • At 11:30 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Bee wrote:

AT LAST! i feel i've been waiting years for this.

i lived in colombia for a couple of years in the mid-90s. The effects of cocaine on civil society and ordinary colombians cannot be overestimated. your film could have gone very much further into how intractable the problem is; how neighbouring Andean countries have largely moved on from violent insurgencies, while Colombia remains mired in a filthy war.

whenever i face a very animated, snot-dribbling hyper-confident party person it all comes back to me.

Thanks Newsnight, about time too.
(PS the music sucked though - why not colombian music?)

  • 15.
  • At 11:48 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Elspeth wrote:

Thank you (finally) for bringing excessive consumption and the need for a revised economic model into the environmental debate. This point has largely been overlooked by mainstream media because it is advertising (ie. consumption) which generally pays the bills.

Buy less, use less, consume less.

Please, make this point more often so that, when people are faced with a product in a store, they actually question if they really do need that new outfit, gadget, phone, etc.

There is some justified fear that a drop in consumption will cause the economy to slow. Perhaps this is just something we will need to accept if we are going to tackle the issue of global warming in a realistic way.

What is worse: receiving a smaller share dividend next quarter or leaving your children with a large inheritance but a world which can no longer support them when you are gone?

  • 16.
  • At 11:53 PM on 18 Jan 2007,
  • Elspeth wrote:

Thank you (finally) for bringing excessive consumption and the need for a revised economic model into the environmental debate. This point has largely been overlooked by mainstream media because it is advertising (ie. consumption) which generally pays the bills.

Buy less, use less, consume less.

Please, make this point more often so that, when people are faced with a product in a store, they actually question if they really do need that new outfit, gadget, phone, etc.

There is some justified fear that a drop in consumption will cause the economy to slow. Perhaps this is just something we will need to accept if we are going to tackle the issue of global warming in a realistic way.

What is worse: receiving a smaller share dividend next quarter or leaving your children with a large inheritance but a world which can no longer support them when you are gone?

  • 17.
  • At 12:05 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • Jotunheim wrote:

After 20 years of teaching in F.E. in Dickens' home city, I did notice that the behaviour of some of our home-grown young women reminded me of Nancy's love for the "Bill Sykes" values of our national culture. Plain, rough speaking, calling a spade a spade and a Jade a jade.

I met it again teaching Literacy and Numeracy hundreds of miles away from London where there were fewer interested, foreign faces and accented voices to lighten the burden of the "I ain't bovvered" brigade.

The Bill and Nancy outlook was usually accompanied by a violent dislike and ridicule of polite manners, careful speech and dignified behaviour. A fellow student of mine at North London Poly in the 1970's was a real life Afghan princess and she behaved just like Shilpa.

The Big Brother house seems like a hostage taker's hideout, with the desperation in there filmed by Channel 4. I hope Shilpa isn't developing the Copenhagen Complex and is going to turn into a Pattie Hearst.

  • 18.
  • At 12:27 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • Jamie Heckert wrote:

Like Elspeth, I was very happy to see some hard questions about capitalism on the 大象传媒. Many people for a long time have been saying that an economic system based on continuous growth, not to mention poverty/inequality and viewing the planet as just a set of 'resources', is incompatible with developing an ecologically intelligent culture.

I would love to see the 大象传媒 develop this more, showing how alternative economic systems are developing around the world, including worker controlled factories in Argentina, explorations in Participatory Economics in the US and worker's cooperatives in the UK.

More importantly, I'm excited to know that more and more people are thinking about this for themselves - what kinds of lives do you want to have? how do you want to relate to the environment of which you are a part? What kinds of economic relationships would help make this happen? What alternatives are there to capitalism?

These discussions are happening in post-capitalist networks, ecopsychology groups, and in everyday life. Hopefully this broadcast will contribute to those ongoing discussions.

  • 19.
  • At 12:34 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • conor wrote:

To save the planet we need to consume less and develope smart ways to do so.It is folly to think that capitalist organisations will provide the solutions as growth of profit to survive is the no 1 objective within capitalism.

Unowned organisations need to get into serious business to replace their capitalist counterparts.

Organisations like Geenpeace, Amnesty and the Red Cross.

Green peace may supply fuel and compete with BP, Friends of the Earth run supermarkets and compete with Tsco.. maybe Amnesty move into media/publishing etc.

As they generate economic power and momentum they can then replace the capitalist donations which pay for and influence political decisions.

With economic power the unowned organisations can create influential marketing messages for us explaining that to be responsible is to be happy, and reverse the baloney that to consume more is to be happy.

The consumers will choose the alternative suppliers consuming less and become happy in their lives in a world which will be fit for their children to live in.

The unowned producing companies can feed people who are starving to death in the poverty regions of the planet. They can fund serious programs to educate the people in areas of conflict so that conflicting people can see that we are all the same - world peace tell me why not!

There may be a talent exodus from capitalist organisations into the new unowned company framework as individuals realise the costs of capitalism.

Within the new framework the unowned companies would be expected to subdivide and compete with one another to ensure best service for consumers.

Consumers will be 鈥榓ll powerful鈥 directing their purchases to those suppliers which, 1 supply product which cares for the planet, and 2, which direct profit into projects to encourage global cooperation and harmony.

An open market must be retained with free individual decisions.

Problem solved!

  • 20.
  • At 12:55 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

RACIST?

"Ms Goody's mother Jackiey Budden, who was also a contestant on the show but was evicted last week, said: "Jade has never been racist, she is mixed race herself and suffered racist abuse as a youngster" [1]

Now that is interesting development.

I wonder if her parental mix (details please) will appease those looking to exploit the racist story here (when there is none).

vikingar

SOURCES;

[1]

  • 21.
  • At 02:35 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • Hugh Waldock wrote:

I am studying gender at uni at the moment and I think racist or not one thing this does show is the absolute burial of 70s and 80s prolitariat feminism as an arguement forever.

The arguement that women share non confrontational, more humane, caring values (becuase they are mothers), and that they would never have built neauclar weapons just doesn麓t stick. This kills that arguement in it麓s tracks. It shows us they have just as many faults as us men.

It may not be the case in the playground, but in general most men grow out of excluding other men from their social groups in this way, at least in their private lives (it may be different in the workplace where a structural order is imposed). However dominant men are over other men there are normally times of reconciliation, of self reflection, guilt about the surpression of their mates and some kind of male bonding, almost attoning for their sins as it were occurs.

Very often and in this case in point, I don麓t see that with women, get a bad reputation with another set of women and your dammed for life. I can麓t see her ever really feeling guilty (not just saying she feels guilty) about calling the indian lady a pappadum. I can麓t see the situation improving until the group is broken up and reorganises. I think when average women hate, they really really hate in a way which is sometimes more extreme than between
normal blokes.

The whole idea of prolitariat feminism was a 20 year long constant attack on "evil man". The rhetoric used to describe men and their actions were often evil and dehumanising too, ideas such as men control womens ability to reproduce through raping or threatening to rape. Men contracting women through marriage (they had consented to) in order exercise control over thier reproductive organs for their own purposes. Very extreme and condemming.

Here we see exactly the same thing with groups of women, proving thus they are just as confrontational as men even to the extent of the dehuminisation of another woman as a inhuman object ripe for eating namely a "pappadum". And this is relentless and unforgiving, there is no pat on the back, no attempt to see things her way, no asking yourself if you would like the same done to you. QED feminists!!!

Feel free to argue back though, I just thought it was interesting.

  • 22.
  • At 02:46 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • Hugh Waldock wrote:

Sorry a correction to my comment. The correct terminology as used in the book Theorising Gender by Lennon, Alsop and Fizsimmons is actually patriarchy or patriachal feminism. in the third chapter entitiled The Social Constuction of Gender. My mistake.

H.

  • 23.
  • At 07:19 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • chris wrote:

Very interesting film about Colombia----surprised no-one has made a film about this subject before. If this is an example of the kind of stuff that "Oh my Newsnight" produces then Jeremy's worries about dumbing down are unfounded. It was powerful stuff and completely unique. It would have been interesting to have known a little bit about Matthew Bristow's background and how he came to make the film, in your introduction.

  • 24.
  • At 09:23 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • P.L.Hayes wrote:

"If this is an example of the kind of stuff that "Oh my Newsnight" produces then Jeremy's worries about dumbing down are unfounded"

Agreed - but Newsnight, like most of the 大象传媒's news and current affairs, wasn't dumb to begin with - so this sort of thing is just a bonus. Unfortunately that is not true of all the 大象传媒's programming. Science has been especially badly hit in recent years and given that the last episode of Horizon I saw couldn't have been any dumber if it'd been researched, written and presented by Jade, perhaps the 大象传媒 should consider extending the experiment.

If millions of viewers are happy to watch cheap trash like BB, I can't see what's so smart and creative about Mark Thomson's success in retaining Jonathan Ross for a few million less than he might otherwise have had to pay either. The 大象传媒 should be investing in talent, not wasting vast sums of money paying for a celebrity status premium it has itself fostered. A clever and creative business move on the entertainment side might have been something like luring Amanda Congdon away from Rocketboom while she was still going cheap.

  • 25.
  • At 09:57 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

Big Brother.

Don't know what all the fuss is about.
It is not race but simply a class war going on in there.

The 大象传媒 should not report it. Why have they turned
themselves into a PR company for channel four?

  • 26.
  • At 10:04 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

Enjoyed the film about COLUMBIA. Well shot and edited.
As a previous poster has noted, Jeremy need not worry about the short independents. Some of those independent film makers were trained by the 大象传媒.

  • 27.
  • At 10:28 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

"Jade Goody, unaware of the controversy brewing around her, continued to make allegedly racist comments today - calling her housemate Shilpa "Poppadom" - Ireland Online

.... err mainstream British comedy & society, still historically still refer to our closest neighbours as:

- Germans as ..... KRAUTS 鈥.. (food type)
- French as ..... FROGS 鈥︹︹.(amphibian)

perspective please :)

STEREOTYPES:

If we want to talk about stereotypes based on race & culture, that is piped into home around the world, heavily watched & mimicked by the worlds youngest generations 鈥

鈥 then what about that great cultural institution The Simpson's, which has been on our screen since 1987 [0]

- Apu (character an Indian store keeper, originally overstayed, then an illegal immigrant until amnesty) [1]

The voice, the look, the practices (religious, social, language) & the story lines.

The actor who provides the voice of Apu is Hank Azaria, a 'white' American Sephardic Jew of Greek ancestry. [2a] [2b] [2c]

Happy to condemn the BB on racist claims if similar campaign raised & successful against The Simpson's & its 20 years history & success based on racial & cultural stereotypes & the differences of people.

But its apples & pears - neither are racist.

Certain groups & esp uniformed groups are looking to condemn BB as being racist, without tangible evidence & proof.

OPINIONS:

Anyone watch Question Time, never knew so many people to condemn something they have not seen period, or seen sufficient amount of to hold an informed opinion.

We would be uniformed & stupid to read something a reviewer recommends, but has never read.

Similarly, those with agendas coming out on the woodwork on this one.

Lets not confuse a clash of cultural & class & bitchiness & ignorance & personality 鈥. in a situation design to produce ratings 鈥 edited to 'reveal' differences & conflict.

Before elevating Shilpa to Sainthood, lets remember she is an actress on a media program designed to give a boost & expose to their careers. But they have to give the machine something to work on :)

SUMMARY:

Suggest those who have an opinion of BB regarding racism actually watch enough footage to have a valid opinion (if they have a telly & access to C4)

In lieu of such do a bit of informed reading.

Excellent BB article about Racism, Contestants, Shilpa et al in The Guardian by Germaine Greer

'Why does everyone hate me?' * [4]

* Shilpa catch phrase.

A reality check on hysteria & mirror to reveal agenda.

Meantime, celeb making-up hugs & kisses all round (kiss kiss) in the house... [5]

Surprise, Surprise ... the police have been called in [6]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[0]
[1]
[2a]
[2b]
[2c]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]

  • 28.
  • At 11:31 AM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • john parfitt wrote:

Mr Thompson shouldn't be so sniffy about answering to 'individual politicians'for the way the 大象传媒 is run You don't have to be a supporter of Gordon Brown or his party (I'm not) to accept that as Her Majesty's Chancellor of the Exchequer he is duty bound to keep an eye on the way in which public money is spent by the 大象传媒 or any other body (including the EU -- my own King Charles's Head) Kirsty was on better form than usual letting the subjects talk instead of doing it herself: I hope the Beeb gets a good return on what they pay the Wark-Clements company.

Whie we're on the cult of celebrity I used to have the 30s Radio Celebrity cgarette cards. They included Sir Walford Davies, Sir Adrian Boult, Isobel Baillie, Gracie Fields, Doris Arnold, Stuart Hibberd, Freddie Grosewood etc Today's overpaid so-called celebs appearing not just on C4 but on the Beeb are a freak show by comparison.

Regfards John Parfitt

  • 29.
  • At 12:31 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • chris wrote:

Dave @13 and Paul Mason your switched on ! The 大象传媒 is nothing but a way for the middle and upper middle class oxbridge types to employ themselves at our expense so they can make programs that none of us has a say in. The commercial TV is nothing but monumental exploitation. Bullying which is the basis of BB is just one example.

  • 30.
  • At 12:34 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

For Elspeth (15)

We do need a new economic model, but we are unlikely to get started on one until we quit regarding the present one as a God - The Global Economy is the church of Free Trade, the unchallengable diety of the Western world.

"Though I can see no way to defend the economy, I recogniize the need to be concerned for the suffering that would be produced by its failure. But I ask if it is necessary for it to fail in order to change: I am assuming that if it does not change it must sooner or later fail, and that a great deal that is more valuable will fail with it. As a deity the economy is a sort of egotistical French monarch, for it apparently can see no alternative to itself except chaos, and perhaps that is its chief weakness. For, of course, chaos is not the only alternative to it. A better alternative is a better economy. But we will not conceive the possibility of a better economy, and therefore will not begin to change, until we quit deifying the present one." -- Wendell Berry

Why is Trade so sacred? Because it enriches traders at the expense of producers, just as government enriches those who produce documents at the expense of those who actually produce things.

"From the point of view of Buddhist economics, therefore, production from local resources for local needs is the most rational way of economic life, while dependence on imports from afar and the consequent need to produce for export to unknown and distant peoples is highly uneconomic and justifiable only in exceptional cases and on a small scale. Just as the modern economist would admit that a high rate of consumption of transport services between a man鈥檚 home and his place of work signifies a misfortune and not a high standard of life, so the Buddhist would hold that to satisfy human wants from faraway sources rather than from sources nearby signifies failure rather than success. The former tends to take statistics showing an increase in the number of ton/miles per head of the population carried by a country鈥檚 transport system as proof of economic progress, while to the latter鈥攖he Buddhist economist鈥攖he same statistics would indicate a highly undesirable deterioration in the pattern of consumption."
--E F Schumacher

Eat local, walk to work, trade with your neighbours in preference to strangers, re-use, recycle, and enjoy the simple things.

xx
ed

"It is well understood that nothing so excites the glands of a free-market capitalist as the offer of a government subsidy." -- Wendell Berry

  • 31.
  • At 01:53 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • Peter Norman wrote:

I thought the piece (Thursday's program) on food growing in London was great. Can anyone put me in touch with this or other groups doing similar?

  • 32.
  • At 02:18 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

THE FUTURE OF 鈥楤ROADCASTING鈥?

Yesterday鈥檚 lead news items dramatically illustrated the two sides of the coin for broadcasters. The most important was the 大象传媒鈥檚 licence fee settlement. Despite the predictable cries, from the 大象传媒 itself, that the world was about to end, this venerable institution will continue to provide programmes that are head and shoulders above those of its UK and worldwide competitors.

However, the government has missed an opportunity. Remember 鈥榚ducation education education鈥! In a report, about the future of education - until 2025 - commissioned by the European Commission, my research highlighted the fact that one especially important (but too often overlooked) channel of education was 鈥榖roadcasting鈥. This potentially took education to all parts of the population, indeed 鈥榬eaching parts others could not reach鈥 鈥 where most conventional education is targeted on quite narrow segments. Most important of all was the possibility of using 鈥榚ntertainment鈥 to sugar the pill of learning; as, classically, 鈥楾he Archers鈥 (albeit on steam radio) was set up to teach farmers about developments in agriculture 鈥 remains a most successful soap despite this! By limiting the ability of the 大象传媒 to innovate, and to take its messages to wider audiences in new ways, the government may have shot itself in its foot in terms of popular education.

What the ultimate outcome for the 大象传媒 might be was graphically illustrated by the 鈥楤ig Brother鈥 story. Channel 4 was set up as a public service broadcaster 鈥 to parallel 大象传媒2 in the commercial sector. Thus the 2003 Communications Act states that "the public service remit for Channel 4 is the provision of a broad range of high quality and diverse programming which, in particular:

(a) demonstrates innovation, experiment and creativity in the form and content of programmes;
(b) appeals to the tastes and interests of a culturally diverse society;
(c) makes a significant contribution to meeting the need for the licensed public service channels to include programmes of an educational nature and other programmes of educative value; and
(d) exhibits a distinctive character.

During its earlier years, under Michael Grade, I remember watching almost as many programmes produced by it as I did those of 大象传媒2. Recently, where it was yesterday claimed that Big Brother was its 鈥榝lagship programme鈥, I have difficulty however in remembering a single programme which met any of the remits listed above; with the exception of the last one 鈥 for it surely now shows distinctively bad taste in most things.

The Big Brother fiasco shows a crucial clash of civilizations which has little to do with race or religion but everything to do with an educated audience versus that of the proudly ignorant (celebrity) culture whose icon has become Jade Goody. I fervently hope the 大象传媒 is allowed to avoid the fate which, embracing the lowest common denominators of celebrity culture, has engulfed Channel4!

  • 33.
  • At 03:52 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • David Culfon wrote:

Reality check: Capitalism will only end when the physical enviroment is depleted i.e. when there's nothing and no-one left to exploit.

  • 34.
  • At 04:26 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

Ref David Culfon #33

"Reality check: Capitalism will only end when the physical environment is depleted i.e. when there's nothing and no-one left to exploit"

Rubbish.

Capitalism will evolve like it always has, regardless of medium/environment, to that extent it has not foreseeable end.

May end up being called something else, but in essence it will be capitalism.

btw

Q. what are you proposing as an alternative?

vikingar

  • 35.
  • At 05:25 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

Just watched the programme on my PC 鈥 nice feature, well done (which has a bearing on the first of today鈥檚 topics).

Licence Fee

I was transfixed by Ms. Wark鈥檚 interview with, one presumes, the guy who signs her pay cheque. But at least one of them had figured out who funds it. I鈥檓 afraid I don鈥檛 think he came off too well on this. Without rewinding to review again, I came away with two main impressions. One is that the choice is seen by him to be between 鈥榪uality鈥 and toys. While they are a factor in the former, I鈥檇 have also thought numbers of bodies, how efficiently they deliver 鈥榩roduct鈥 to consumer and what they get paid to do so would be worth looking at too. It may have helped to swing those of us not on indexed-linked salaries with competitors at every turn, and who wonder why it requires a UK reporter (and crew?) to go to the other part of the world where there is 大象传媒 representation, to film a 30鈥 filler on global warming. It is classic civil service 鈥榚mpire-build first, delivery later鈥 thinking at its worst. We then come to the matter of salaries and bonuses, especially at the top. What is the point equating the 大象传媒 with the private sector? It operates totally differently. And I鈥檇 imagine anyone going into it at executive level would know that. The compensation for not dripping in cash is (was) security and the chance not to dig through the barrel base further and further in search of the ratings to justify one鈥檚 fiscal worth in comparison with the private sector. As with 鈥榮tars鈥 such as Ross, Moyles, etc, I simply just don鈥檛 buy the argument that you have to compete by playing 鈥榯his any price talent鈥 game. Working for the 大象传媒 gives you access to a whole country in developing the skills (and in terms of stars, audience) upon which to forge very nice careers internally or onwards. It鈥檚 lazy management, and nothing less, that leads to clinging on to existing staff no matter what, when a simple 鈥楽orry, we鈥檒l miss you鈥 could suffice. And don鈥檛 come back with that 鈥榳e need to attract top talent鈥 argument. It鈥檚 out there. You just have to stay on top of where it is and be ready to move. I know a lot who'd give their eye-teeth to have a crack at breaking through into the opportunities presented by this cosy, exclusive (and not in a good way) media club.

Big Brother

I normally wouldn't give this a microsecond's thought, let alone commit to keyboard, but as our nation's finest pols, NGOs and media have decided it is more important than anything else (unless a tornado whisks the BB house to Oz), why not me as well?

I have two words to offer: AGENDA and EDIT.

From the media company that sets this up, to the media that feed on the controversy so set up (as if they didn't know), how anyone with a brain can assign any significance to the words and actions of a vetted and selected and manipulated group of human extremes is beyond me. It's like watching a show called BIG BOMBER and getting in a lather because all the guys with (I'll avoid any potentially un-PC or pejorative descriptions here) huddle around in one corner discussing hair bleach and exotic dinner ingredients whilst looking ominously across the room at the lone US Marine popped in to see what happens.

And should things not quite work to the full requirements of the AGENDA, there is always the EDIT. You can leave in, or out, what serves your needs best. Leave to simmer, and serve.

The day people don鈥檛 notice and discuss differences (I鈥檇 prefer celebrating them rather than trying to homogenise us all) between each other is when we are all clones, and even then I鈥檓 sure we鈥檒l still try to do it.

Pathetic. Shame on the whole sorry cabal involved, and feeding off it all. Including those rushing to be offended, preferably on a guest slot.

Green

Gosh, dilemmas. I don鈥檛 envy that poor smoothie chap. I wonder if he imagined he was running into the same kind of deal as the DG? Here to stick it to Tescos (maybe not: they are a supplier, after all) and find oneself lumped along with them in the nasty capitalist expansion stakes. Not quite the same, or fair, to be so simplistic. But Ms. Wark did raise some pretty critical issues.
If we really are serious about this planet-saving thing, we need to grasp that there are lots of us, getting to be more and more, most of whom have little else to do than earn, aspire, and hence purchase in an upward spiral that has only one end point that I can see, if left unchecked. So while oodles better than a Tesco air-flown mango I鈥檓 sure (if a few aisles apart), as a clearly more ethical business that started in a fair stall and now is expanding globally, making and distributing and all that stuff, it must be hard to weigh the various considerations.
I myself suffer the same daily concerns with my business (it鈥檚 very hard to create anything new without adding to the environmental costs), and often find myself shy of the ideal by demands of family and immediate, vs. far, future. But I do try and avoid getting hit by my own boomerang and mouthing off too much on what others should do whilst not doing it myself (a long, growing and depressing list of bad examples developing in this regard), and so far have managed to produce a service and, with luck soon, products that actually serve to reduce or reuse when they hit the marketing stream. And not a target in sight! So no funding then.
Finally no, I didn鈥檛 rush into carb-con offsetting either, but fear that the essential wisdom of creating something fair and effective like this has been tainted in the public鈥檚 eyes by some much-ballyhooed efforts being poisoned chalices. Or with schemes designed more to serve agendas and salaries of the City and Westminster, Brussels and Kyoto than any decent, global (Kalahari bushmen breathe the same air we鈥檙e thinking of trading above them) environmental ROI.

Back to work:)

  • 36.
  • At 05:37 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

Present economic assumptions (capitalism) regard all raw materials as free gifts. The only price we pay is for the getting.

There is also no consideration of the 'costs' of the free services the Earth provides in digesting our pollution and other 'waste' either.

Only in such an 'economy' can 'profit' be 'made'. "All profit is Nature's loss." -- Arne Naess

20% of the world's folk are enjoying 80% of the unsustainable harvest.

xx
ed

  • 37.
  • At 05:49 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • David R wrote:

Yes, the 大象传媒 licence fee may not be the most popular bill to pay each year and it is right that there be a robust critique of how the money raised is used, and of course the 大象传媒 management will be bound to complain. But, believe me, as an ex-pat, currently living in another European country and having lived in several others, the 大象传媒 is clearly the national and international gold standard of broadcasting and however bad it is thought to be, it is a million miles ahead of the best elsewhere. Nurture and protect it because without it, be prepared for round the clock "Big Brother" and other similar cheap and nasty reality programmes, producing an ever lengthening list of nonentities seeking celebrity status by getting onto shows where they can behave obnoxiously with impunity

  • 38.
  • At 06:16 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • jotunheim wrote:

Vikingar ( 34 ) is right about the longevity and creative evolution of capitalism, and that idea has a longevity of its own in the world of Environmental Studies. I recall a book that I studied in the 1970's called "Scarcity and Growth" by Barnett and Morse, that disproved Malthusianism in food consumption and encouraged the using up of the world's available resources as fast as necessary. That would trigger the break- through technological developments that would exploit other less accessible resources and enable us all to progress. The examples given were available petroleum supplies and the untapped oil shale reserves in Canada. (I don't think they had a cosmology about an End Time though ).

  • 39.
  • At 06:24 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • godric bj wrote:

I watched, in wonder as the green capitalist talked to the green social engineer, fiddeling with the detail while the planet burns.

How, I ask, is it possible to discuss such things without bringing population into the equasion?

The truth is it's people that comsume. It the most powerfull number... Lets talk about it before it's too late.

  • 40.
  • At 07:29 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

Godric (39)

A poem to contemplate:
A tribe said to the universe,
"Sir, We exist!"
"So I see," said the universe,
"But your multitude creates in me
No feeling of obligation."

How do you propose to deal with the question of growing numbers when our Western cultures panic at the idea of slowing population growth (among the gargantuan consumers of resources)?

On the morning after the Tsunami, there were more people alive than on the morning before.

And since that violent day, the average daily increase has grown from 204,000 to 213,000 - not an encouraging trend.

Vaya con Gaia
ed

  • 41.
  • At 11:45 PM on 19 Jan 2007,
  • godric bj wrote:

ed (40)

"You can't take the sweeties from the child" said the parent.

"Ah", said the doctor, "then we must wait for the child to be taken by the sweeties".

Let's at least see the start of the debate in the braver half of the media. I am sure you are not saying that this matter is too sensitive to be discussed... are you?

Why not start with...
"If you tax consumption, why subsidise population?"

or

"Is Sustainable Development the most dangerous oxymoron of our time?"

No lets keep it simple鈥
鈥淲hy are we encouraging people to have more children when the planet can鈥檛 take it?鈥

There, we have started already!


  • 42.
  • At 01:08 AM on 20 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

Godric (41),
"I am sure you are not saying that this matter is too sensitive to be discussed... are you?"

I'm certainly not, but there is a taboo, named after Garrett Hardin, author of the Tragedy of the Commons (which I recommend). There are two recent articles, both referring to the problem which come from a London Medical periodical.:

and


Those two articles should give us something to begin with. As to oxymorons, how about ecotourism?

Hardin also wrote an essay on Carrying Capacity as an ethical concept, available at:

and ends:
"By contrast, the carrying capacity approach results in replacing the concept of a "have-not" nation with that of an "overpopulation" nation. It's a rare piece of property that cannot support a suitably small population in comfort. This does not mean that every territory will have a helping of all the amenities of life: people who live in Spitzbergen should not assert their right to tropical beaches, nor people in Bali their right to skiing. The exceptional property that cannot meet a minimum standard for human existence should have a zero population. It makes no sense to say that every territory has a right to be occupied by a human population. Some wretched territories now inhabited should be abandoned.

"Overpopulation can be corrected by means short of homicide and war. The means is attrition, which means seeing to it that the birth rate falls below the death rate (Hardin 1985b). This may be painful, but it is not war. For members of the Western world, part of the pain of adjustment of population to reality arises from the necessity of reexamining and substantially modifying our concept of human rights. In this reexamination, the deep concept of cultural carrying capacity must play a central role."

Strong stuff. Can we take it?
Vaya con Gaia
ed

  • 43.
  • At 01:49 PM on 20 Jan 2007,
  • godric bj wrote:

(ed 42)

hi again,

I am grateful for your input and links, but there is little future in people who agree agreeing to agree.

Lets ask ethical man why he thinks its ok to have lots of children and NEVER discuss population as a green issue.

thx and bye

  • 44.
  • At 09:00 PM on 20 Jan 2007,
  • vikingar wrote:

Ref godric bj #43

"Lets ask ethical man why he thinks its ok to have lots of children and NEVER discuss population as a green issue"

Can we also include the impact from the migration of millions of foreign nationals as a green issue *

* besides socio economic, cultural & security issues & impact on scant housing, services etc.

vikingar

  • 45.
  • At 10:20 AM on 21 Jan 2007,
  • Sylvia wrote:


I haven't had a television for ten years and I can't say I miss it.I seemed to spend most of my time reaching for the remote.

  • 46.
  • At 06:11 PM on 21 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

Vikingar & Godric,

Cultural Carrying Capacity:

treats on some of these questions, including migration. Also here:

some words on and from Garrett Hardin.

These matters are subject to a double taboo; not only is it taboo to discuss them, it is also taboo to admit the taboo.

Beware: The area has more than it's fair share of unsavoury folk - racists, cultural supremacists, etc.

Enter with caution.
Salaam, etc.
ed

  • 47.
  • At 03:31 PM on 23 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

The Tragedy of the Commons for Dummies:

Enjoy it.
xx
ed

  • 48.
  • At 02:50 AM on 25 Jan 2007,
  • Mark Bell wrote:

I just caught 5 minutes of newsnight around three hours ago when it was still Wednesday(it's now 3:30 in the morning). You had a gentleman talking about his experience of saving someone (a young child I believe) from a fire in a car and what prompted him to do that. And then you had another gentleman whose ideas I thought were rather strange, cold and very emotioanlly detached, and sincerely thought for a moment he had psychologcial problems. I thought his evolutionary ideas lacked humanity. It should be remembered that evolution is just a theory and that on his death bed, before he met his maker, Darwin dismissed his own ideas as the ramblings of a young mind. I hope Newsnight can at least give a balanced viewpoint and whenever they invite an evolutionist to give their take on something there is a creationist next to him giving God's view on the matter. So at least people can make an informed decision and not just be given a biased one. I felt cold and empty as I listened to the evolutionist speaking and was thankful that through my own spiritual experiences I knew better.

Mark Bell

  • 49.
  • At 04:31 PM on 25 Jan 2007,
  • david slatter wrote:

How is jade being racist? she discriminated via culture, not race. I'm a white European male and if she offensively impersonated my ascent or couldn't pronounce my French(or whatever nationality you like) name, it surely wouldn't be racist but discrimination? same goes for the name incident. Name and ascent are cultural, not genetic.

  • 50.
  • At 04:53 PM on 25 Jan 2007,
  • David Culfon wrote:

REF:VIKINGAR (No.34)

"what's the alternative?"
Vote GREEN!

  • 51.
  • At 02:15 AM on 26 Jan 2007,
  • wrote:

Re David Culfon #50

hhhmmm ...more likely too...

VOTE Tory & GO GREEN

vikingar

  • 52.
  • At 12:06 PM on 27 Jan 2007,
  • Paul Davies wrote:

It's interesting to hear of the debate in the UK over the Beebs power.

I remember reluctantly paying my TV licence when I lived in the UK, infact I took the 大象传媒 for granted. Having moved to Asia, I really appreciate watching Newsnight and other 大象传媒 television and radio programmes.

For all those people who are unconvinced about the 大象传媒 I suggest you take a look at other TV stations around the world first. You'll soon realise what a blessing the corporation truely is.

Of course the beauty of it is, now, I dont have to pay a licence fee anymore.. So as an expat I would like to offer my thanks for all those who pay there licence fee. :P

This post is closed to new comments.

The 大象传媒 is not responsible for the content of external internet sites