´óÏó´«Ã½

'A Dog's Life'

Regarding the question 'Who would wish to own a Pit Bull Terrier?'

If you ask any Streetwise Police Officer's the question, you would most likely be referred to the most common owner's using them as a means of self protection in their occupation as drug dealer's.

We viewers are perfectly capable of accessing the propaganda of both sides of the immigration debate ourselves. Your job is to provide journalistic analysis of your own, not to provide a platform for vested interests.

Dear Newsnight

Will watch with interest as have a foot in both camps on at least one of your stories, genetically that is.
Will watch that is with my remote ready to turn off -I'm sure you will maintain your high standards but felt physically sick and disgusted at the depraved news reporting elsewhere

Best wishes
Bob Goodall

If someone complains about immigrants sending money home, I hope Newsnight asks the anti-immigration lobby what is so different when Britons happily buy chinese clothes, japanese cars and go on foreign holidays. This is a valid topic for Newsnight. If people are to be sent home, where do we start? The Irish? Indians? Scots maybe? How genetically pure do the inwardly focused anti-immigrant lobby want Britain to be? Some of the wealth of Old England was built upon colonization, slavery and outright theft from other countries. Should all of this wealth be returned too? Is it that we just want their money, and not them? (a question for the UKIP Chelsea supporters). After a decade of New Labour, we should have expected a professional immigration system, like that in Australia and New Zealand. As long as the system is weak and unfair, its weaknesses will be exploited by the thuggish mentality that used to give Britain a bad name in the 80s at football matches abroad.

Just as our MP's are reported to be in line for a massive pay rise is it not logical to replace them with cheaper politicians from other countries?

J Hill

What is the total cost to UK Ltd of the monies sent back by immigrants to their home countries?

Your contributor, Sir Andrew Green, stated in his report that Great Britain was four times more crowded than France. If this is indeed the case then, as France has a land mass about twice that of the UK but a population of about 50-55million, the UK must have a population of over 100million, which in fact is not the case, so this was an erroneous statement.

so what if people begin to migrate from the rest of the UK to London? would the government put a limit on that?

As the majority of people would agree, its not immigration that concerns us but the levels at which it is taking place.

This is what needs to be monitored.

Immigration will certainly benefit employers. They'll get qualified workers at low rates without having to pay anything towards training costs.

Whether this will be as good for British workers ... especially the unmentioned British workers who WANT to work but can't get access to the training they need ... is another matter. There has certainly been a shortage of tradesmen (plumbers/electricians etc) which immigrant workers have successfully filled, but isn't the gap due less to British workers being unwilling to work than it is to their being unable to obtain the technical training (previously in apprenticeships) needed to qualify?

If all these Eastern Europeans immigrants are all Professional hard working people, why have we so many begging and sleeping rough? why have these people not gone home? answer is obviously our very generous benefits system which is not available in any other EC Country.

If employers in for example the care industry paid a better wage then the indigenous population would want to do these jobs. The fact that the wages are 'minimum wage' less accom costs and so on, means that no one does want to do these jobs - apart from the immigrants for whom the deal is pretty good.

They are by and large single, and live 7 or 8 to a house, or in mobile homes (as they do near me) so their costs of living are much lower than a person paying a mortgage and bringing up kids.

Good for the economy, good for inflation: but not so good for those who are undercut in the job market.

The young man the Author of 'Your Country needs you' is somewhat deluded or simply naive.
He refers to Doctors and Nurses etc.
He should know that British national doctors are being paid off and newly qualified Nurses cannot get a job with many more to lose their jobs. As for caring for the elderly, he should also check just how many Care homes for the elderly have and are being closed down.
He needs to do some research and deal with the facts that his mass immigration agenda has brought, as does the Government. They might even like to look at the crime levels of the immigrant.
Otherwise they all look stupid - as they do!

There should not be one unemployed person in britain whilst we are still allowing mass immigration into this country. I would love to see a poll of what plumbers, bricklayers, lorry drivers think about this, as it is their standard of living that is being driven down. But as usual, it is the high and mighty, safe in their index linked jobs that decide what the hoi palloi shall suffer. I for one will be emigrating to spain as soon as i can, if this sounds like double standards, i can assure you it isnt. Spain is one country that really caters for the british, as our own country has become a mish mash of religion, culture, and has lost its own sense of being british. If multiculturalism is such a good thing, why dont the british move to Iran, Saudi, poland or any other eastern block countries? The answer is the same as why immigrants come here, money and way of life.

I am disgusted at Phillipe Legraine's comments on tonights programme that immigration benefits this country. It states in todays Times newspaper that annual benefit per annum per person is £2. Hardly beneficial at all.
I personally believe that immigration causes more problems than its worth. We hear all the time about people travelling from far away countries to get to these shores. What on earth is wrong with the countries they cross to get here.

I, as an unskilled British national have come across many immigrants in my job as a car valeter. With the exception of only a handful the majority have made no attempt to learn English. One of my colleagues is open about the fact that he came here with his pregnant wife just so that she could give birth in this country. I also know another Polish immigrant who came here with his wife and 4-year old son and he is getting Child Benefits.

Lets not forget as well that we are always discussing the economic points of immigration, what about the Social impact of immigration. The majority of young people in this country do not want immigrants here and in my opinion we are heading for breaking point.

Whilst both sides of the debate have some validity, Phillipe's argument is seriously flawed and was delivered in a hugely ignorant and fanciful manner with a distinct lack of realism. Investment bankers and nannys indeed!!

Immigration of EU citizens between different EU states is no longer "immigration". Free movement of EU citizens is part of the concept of Europe. There is no longer any difference between a plumber moving to Bristol from Warsaw and a plumber moving from Leeds to Bristol.
What agenda do you have in presenting the programme in the way that you have done?

We are members of the EU, its they that control our immigration and NOT No10, when will thay admit this. Whan we withdraw from the EU we regain our borders - its as simple as that.

We should adopt the Canadian immigration policy only for those outside the EU. A point system where each point is based on their educational ability plus physical well-being to be able to work in a English speaking society and who will not be a drain on our health care systems or economic social welfare systems. Exactly the same as Canada demands with their immigration policy.

Anne Cryer speaks of migrants having appropriate levels of English, yet the government has instructed the LSC(Learning Skills Council) the funding body for ESOL classes to withdraw funding for ESOL from next September. From then on the majority of migrants attempting to gain functional levels of English will have to pay, that's if their employers are not willing to, and many are not. So how can they afford to pay for classes if they are still earning the same low levels of pay for carrying out the same unskilled work?

If the new immigrants are taking up jobs which no one else wants to do, who were doing them before ?

Its tiring to listen to ´óÏó´«Ã½ commentators and senior English politicians talk about the importance of immigrants speaking "the language" every time this subject is discused.

We actually have 3 native languages in the UK that are spoken daily - Welsh (the original "British"), Gaelic in Scotland and NI as well as English.

When will the ´óÏó´«Ã½ correct these individuals who continually make this mistake? Probably never as most senior ´óÏó´«Ã½ folk are English have have no clue about life outside the home counties.

i am, or was, a farm labourer, with 20 years of back breaking work, putting food on the nations table, behind me. i never wanted to do anything else, being proud to work on the land of my forefathers in Cornwall. i looked forward to being a fit 80 year old, as several of my co-workers were. for the past 2 years i have been unable to find any work, it all being taken by eastern europeans. i do not blame them, they have a right to work, but so do i. the farmers have no choice but to take the cheapest labour as the governments of this country have progressively destroyed the industry. i am now on the dole and sickened to my stomach when i hear people say that local people 'won't' do the work, it's just not true. i know at least 30 other people who have lost work to the immigrant workers, its just so sad, no-one listens.

I am just adding support to Andrew Greens arguments on tonight's 'Newsnight'. I get fed up with the 'Indigeoneous' population being regarded as 'lazy' and the immigrants portrayed as 'just doing the jobs we Brit's don't want to do'. Living here in East Anglia where wages are extremely low and property prices extremely high, most young people cannot afford to work in the areas immigrants can. Try servicing a mortgage of say £100,000 on the minimum wage! These immigrants are prepared to live several to a house in order to survive. I'm not against market forces up to a healthy degree but i don't want to see my two young lads having to share a squat with there friends simply to survive. This is the 21st century after all.

The guy who made the comment about investment bankers being able to go back to work,(enabling a high wage economy?) is stark snobbish raving nutcase, obviously himself well off!. His attitude is all that is wrong in this still class ridden society.Pay tradesmen a proper wage,as suggested by the other guest, to attract youngsters to the construction/service industry and get them of the dole and depression and dependence on drugs cycle-give ORDINARY people incentives to work.

Comment was requested on which of the interviewees on immigration we believe had the correct views.

I would back Migrationwatch and Anne Cryer.
The only two with a real understanding of the situation, and a will to tackle the problem head-on, unlike the senior labour ministers.

The Conservative MP was the usual apologist individual who chose the easy option, while doing nothing about immigrants from EU countries. These EU immigrants are actually reducing wages to suit the corporate establishment while they are here, and then exporting the money they make to their own countries.
The other interviewee was as usual, the jumped up little twerp in the corner, spouting economic theories which have no real foundation, and who are given too much importance in the public arena.

I am a romanian citizen and I've lived in the UK for the last 7 years.
I own a recruitment company and our employees are from the new EU member states. We employ around four hundred people every year on temporary basis. 95% of them return home at the end of their contract. They do not claim benefits and for health treatment they go home (the NHS is in the state that we all know!). Most of the East Europeans do not want to move in the UK, they cannot get used with the life here.
About the strain on the roads?! What a load of rubish! Bad management?
Did enybody tghout what if the foreigners will stop working for a week?! What will be in food industry, agriculture, building, care...? Shall I contionue?
Thank you

Immigration makes us better off. In fact, all the arguments made against free immigration of migrant workers are the same as all the arguments made against free trade, and just as flawed.

Suppose it is true that migrant workers are cheaper than domestic ones. This means that employers save money by hiring them. What do they do with this money? They either invest it in their business, or they invest it in somebody elses (perhaps by putting money in banks), or they spend it. By investing it in their own or in other businesses, they allow their own or those other business to expand production. By spending the money themselves, on the other hand, they would increase the demand for whatever they spent their money on.

Increasing production would mean lower prices for goods, and more demand for workers producing those goods.

If they spent the money rather than investing it, they increase demand for those things they spend the money on. This encourages people to produce more of those things, and so increases demand for workers to produce more of those things.

So, this means higher employment. The increased production of goods and services, meanwhile, means higher supply in relation to demand, and so lower prices. This means higher real wages.

Immigration, therefore, increases employment, and means higher real wages.

Economic immigration is driven by economic inbalance. If people can earn more in the UK (or for that matter in London/the South East) than in their own country/region then they are drawn there to gain financial wealth.

If the economic inbalance was less, there would be less interest in people coming to the UK for work. International exchange rates will alter this in the long term. Meanwhile, what would be the affect of having different UK tax rates dependent on nationality?

I note Mr.Coughlan that had decided your opinion ,some time before the debate was aired on the television programme tonight.Happy New Year & welcome to a new reality especially if you live in a deprived area like me , flooded with immigrants,who will work for less than the minimum wage . As my (labour) M.P.has said ,"Pay peanuts,Get monkeys".

im a 21 year old man and have now been out of work for 3 months. its not that i dont want to work,its that all of the jobs are tacken up by immagrints . i have applied for over 30 jobs, and even had to cancle christmas due to lack of money. so how will the goverment help me and others like me?

And just how many people would mr phillipe Legrain and his leftie Ilk like in this country ? seventy million? eighty million, more prehaps.I think the politicians and those with vested financial interest are grossly underestimating the seething temper out on the 'shop floor'.People will not-repeat not stand idly by and allow their standard of living to be eroded by Blairs crack-pot government,with its policy of keeping wage inflation,general inflation,and interest rates down by flooding society with cheap migrant labour.

The statement that young British people with no GCSEs or other formal qualifications are unwilling to take jobs to care for old people in Britain, is utterly ridiculous. How can somebody make such a sweeping statement on Newsnight and have any credibility.

Advocates of free immigration so often use this type of argument, to justify their views, but these people that make such statements fail to realize that although they might not want to do that type of work, there are others ( within the population )that do do this type of work and are pleased to be able to do it.

The current EU immigration is simply too one sided, in other words it's a one way street. Those UK citizens that will inevitable be displaced by migrant workers are quite simply unable to get on their bikes and head to glittering shores of eastern europe in order to make a decent living.

I enjoy living in a cosmoplitan, open city such as London, but believe that
in the not too distant future, the city will be overun with migrants and in big trouble.

Just imagine if the USA and NAFTA members opened their borders to free movement of people - it would be a catastrophe which is why it would never be allowed to happen. It's simply common sense not to do it without proper controls and planning which the UK government seems to be so inept at doing.

This country is full, we are now one of, if not the, most overcrowded country in the world. I'm sure most immigrants are decent people but there are simply too many of them. This is only a small island with limited capacity. The impact the 'polish plumber' is having on tradesmen here has not been publicised. Over the last 10 years, very few firms in the construction industry have been taking on apprentices due to stifling beaurocracy. This has led to an entirely predictable shortage of skilled labour which has now been filled by lower paid eastern europeans, many of whom do not have the level of skills required by UK workers. Because the skills gap has been 'filled', there is even less incentive for employers to take on our youngsters as apprentices for the skilled trades. No wonder we have a serious crime and disorder problem as before Labour came to power, youngsters who were not academically inclined, traditionally went into the construction industry. Now there is nothing for them, nothing whatsoever. The social damage being done to the UK by rampant immigration will be a heavy one, but, no doubt it will be left to others to pick up the pieces when it all goes tragically wrong.

I constantly read the same arguments being offered in favour of unlimited immigration particularly from new EU member states. Of 700000 immigrants from these states 98% are employed, pay taxes and take jobs not wanted by British workers. On the surface a fine contribution to our economy.
Now considder the untold story. During this same period unemployment has risen by 670000. If 98% of our new immigrants are employed that clearly shows that 657000 of those newly unemployed are British workers therefore any contribution made by the immigrants in work must be offset by the massive increase in the cost of welfare and the lost taxation revenue from those British workers now unemployed.
The main proponents of unchecked immigration are of course the CBI. Lets face it, we arent bringing middle management into the country we are getting skilled and unskilled manual workers, ie, Joiners, Steel Workers, Plumbers etc., this is fine for the CBI members, they win all round. Their jobs are safe and they get to reduce costs by employing cheap foreign workers and therfore driving down wages overall. The average British worker cannot possibly work for these rates of pay with mortgage, family and home to pay for therefore they are forced into unemployment.
Therein lies the long term problem. Anyone with a slight knowledge of economics knows of the multyplier. For every pound earned by a worker the net effect to the economy is approximately fivefold. By driving wages down the long term effects on the economy of reduced spending power of the workforce is immense, we are creating a long term slump based on reduced income and massive unemployment.
Add to this the drain of 700000 people on our health service that have made no contribution to its establishment over 60 years and the true cost of uncontrolled immigration starts to become apparent. If we don't act to stem the tide very quickly the damage will be irreversable, if it isn't already.

With regard to immigrants filling the job vacancies in old peoples homes, as I understand the law the residents are classed as vulnerable people. This surely means that all staff have to pass an enhanced CRB check. How can prospective employers check the background of foreign employees to ensure they have no prior convictions which woud disqualify them from these jobs?

EU has to take a collective approach, how are these immigrants here on a short term basis ever going to return home and find homes they can afford because while they are away cheap properties are being snapped.
I had to visit a dentist in Poland not so long ago and was subjected to a lot of flack because many had fled to the UK which left a shortage there!

Hello,
I watched the program and want to request all western worlds to abandon the all Immigration and deport Immigrants who born in different country. Believe me all western world will be disabled. We people work hard in our field far away from home country don’t expect any sympathy and don’t claim benefit and finally just greedy for some respect. what I have seen in Britain from my three year life if govt of UK want to stop shouting from all problems the STOP giving benefits to BRITISH people who are not disabled age between 18-50 and just seating home with 5-10 kids and getting 30-35K for raising kid who will be having their kids when they will be 13-14 and will never go to school. Is there any statistics which show how many people got masters in UK or PhD in UK the one born in Britain and white British?

With regard to immigrants filling the job vacancies in old peoples homes, as I understand the law the residents are classed as vulnerable people. This surely means that all staff have to pass an enhanced CRB check. How can prospective employers check the background of foreign employees to ensure they have no prior convictions which woud disqualify them from these jobs?

The questions that are always skirted around in any immigration debate I've listened to and/or read are these :
1) If people a fleeing persecution to get to a safe country, why do they not stay in Germany, or France or any other European country, why the desire to get to the UK ? Is it because they know that in the UK they will easily get benefits, get feed & housed, have access to medical services, child care & education with no questions asked ?
If this is the case, why is the UK Government not changing our systems so that that attraction is removed and thereby removing the reasons behind the desire of people to get to the UK - no attaction - no illegal immigration ! !
Seems a simple "cause & effect" link to me !
2) If there are all these jobs available in the UK so that 10's or 100's of thousands of EU citizens can migrate to the UK to work, why have not those jobs already been taken by UK citizens currently receiving job seekers allowance ? Why is the UK tax payer expected to pay for the UK unemployed to stay at home when jobs obviously exist ?
Again, why is the UK system for benefits not being revised to make getting a job the "attractive" option for the UK's unemployed ?

I really like to hear any politician give an honest answer to both of these points - but I don't expect that I'll ever hear them discussed, even if many of the "normal" UK resident people I speak to (of all creeds & colours) all seem to want to have those questions answered !

Neglect and appalling management by the current government has made immigration the biggest issue facing our overcrowded little nation today. If the current levels of immigration are allowed to continue, England will be unrecognisable in 50 years time. Huge swathes of countryside are in danger of being concreted-over - and the biggest single reason for the need for extra housing is immigration. The government's current policies are leading to tensions within our society which will ultimately lead to extremism and violence. Who wants to live in a tension-filled, overcrowded nation? No wonder so many people are choosing to move abroad.

"Holocaust denial" on Ireland and Scotland has long been a popular sport on the ´óÏó´«Ã½ - now we are into holocaust denial about the Welsh.

I'd say the Austrians have it right -lets lock up these guys for a year of two until they change their ways.

Dear David,

I have just been watching your report on immigration and agree with most (not all) of the interviewees' comments.

One thing that concerned me was the way jobs in care, cleaning, plumbing etc were viewed, especially when they were branded as 'jobs that the British people don't want to do'.

Furthermore, for people who are doing these jobs to be called the 'under-class' by the gentleman from Migration Watch is quite damaging, especially since he seems to be against the so-called 'influx' of foreigners coming into the country.

Surely it would be an idea to try and get rid of the image which is being created for these kinds of jobs in British minds? People who are doing these jobs, British or otherwise, are important to our society and they should be made to feel so.

I also agree with Ann Cryers who said that people doing these jobs should be treated better and properly paid. This will help in showing the importance of these jobs and influence more British people to take them.

Kind Regards,

Maya

If we have economic growth of 3% and population growth (and therefore costs to society)of 3%, we have gained NOTHING. Phillipe Legrain stated that Eastern European immigrants are not allowed to claim benefits - this is absolute codswallop! The official line is that they are not allowed to claim benefits, but I work with people from Eastern Europe and large numbers of them are claiming working tax credit and child tax credit, and some of them are claiming housing benefit. He also failed to talk about the much larger group of immigrants coming from outside the EU, who are having a detrimental impact on the cohesion of our society. In addition, he said that there would be nobody to care for our older people - well, we had people caring for them before mass immigration! Another point that I would like to make about Eastern European immigrants is that they are being badly exploited by (usually Asian) landlords who are charging an absolute fortune for sub-standard accommodation and encouraging strangers to live two or three to a room. All-in-all, standards are falling, our society is becoming less cohesive and we are experiencing more and more infrastructure problems because of mass immigration. It's madness!!!

All the time when I see report about immigration is about people from East Europe (i'am one of these). Everyone is scared of them. But these people are usually very skilled and willing to work very hard.And I think UK have the benefit from them.They were born in Europe and they will stay in Europe. Now EU is their country and by EU law you can work or move to any part of EU.They do not need to hide their identity, do need to change names or make fake passports etc... What is annoying for me is the immigration from outside of the EU. And I think this part of immigraton must be under control in all EU.

Market forces should be allowed to drive wages up for Britons doing in demand or unpopular jobs otherwise where is the incentive for young Britons to invest in their future ?

Britons would be able to work for the wages being paid to immigrant workers if our Government took steps to reverse the concentration of housing ownership (buy to let) which denies the have not's any security .

Dear Newsnight,
Just like you guys to know I'm 100% in favour sir Andrew on his argument, and even go so far as to say his opponent was living in a dreamworld with numbers numbers numbers as his only argument. Are government figures always 100% correct...?
The conservatives need to be more comittive, and not be so afraid to offend - or else people are going to end up voting BMP to do something about it..I'm not promoting BMP, but if there is no other way to stop this situation getting worse i will, and so will many more voters.

At the very end of the debate sir andrew green made a statement that you will never hear a politician make ....."we should pay uk citizens enough to attract them to do the jobs that currently we don't want to do".... by failing to do so it's our poor/lower income groups that pay the price. Whilst profits increase for business owners thanks to the growing supply of workers, eager to work for minimum wages. What was behind the CBI's calling for no limits on immigration from Bulgaria and Roumania, was it concern for the british work force, or was it profits for shareholders.

I think Andrew Green is to be congratulated for calmly articulating the facts about immigration. I personally feel that Britain is a very crowded country already and that we should have strictly maintained limits on the entry of people here. I do not agree with the argument that Britons will not do certain jobs. I think they will and they do when they can. Recent recruitment from abroad has meant that British nurses, for example cannot find jobs. We are already a very diverse collection of people and it has not brought pure bliss to the nation. Our entire infrastructure is stressed by the weight of the population. The government has been unequal to the challenge of choosing who can come here and who cannot. However, there is an international element to this too. International agreements need to be forged with countries to win their co-operation in keeping their populations from desperate flights to Britain. I think it is high time this subject was debated and looked at honestly. I think the government and many politicians would rather look the other way than face the fact that Britain is already densely populated. As so often, where a lead is needed, the government fails to give it. Andrew Green has at least had the moral courage to take a reasoned stand.

It's about time someone like Sir Andrew Green was given a platform to express the deep reservations most of the country feels about the shambles that the government have made of immigration.
How can it be right that we have taken in over 1 million immigrants who are supposedly benefiting the economy when the unemployment figure stands at 1.7 million?
It surely doesn't take an economist to see that there are fundamental problems with the current approach, which will only get worse in the long term. If the indigenous population won't take on certain jobs then pay has to increase and benefits must be cut to stimulate uptake. The alternative is that we begin - or rather, consolidate - the development of an alienated, unemployable permanent underclass of around 2 million. That is simply brewing trouble for our society. And it is obvious that many of the foreign workers are being paid less - there was a recent dispute here in Scotland over the recruitment of Polish bus-drivers for an Edinburgh company, with the local drivers complaining that the new workers were being paid less, and that there would obviously be knock-on effects for future wage negotiations.
Our education system needs to be overhauled also, to ensure that we don't have the constant skill shortages that we seem to need to fill, from plumbers to doctors etc.
Outside of the economic factors, what will the effect be on the cohesion of the nation, with the difficulty of assimilating large numbers of people who come from such varied backgrounds, religions etc?

Regarding immigration: Newsnight did well to cover this. The defence of immigration on the grounds of economic benefit is weak and over simplistic and the discussion effortlessly highlighted this.

Immigration is NOT a debate about economics and whether the country is better or worse off. It is a debate about how many people can be crowded into these over populated islands (by any comparative measure). It is a debate about whether there is sufficient infrastructure and services to cope with any additional numbers. It is a debate about how to integrate foreign nationals, wherever they come from, within our society and at the same time retain our values, culture and social cohesion. In other words it is about the practicalities of managing the numbers. It therefore follows that there must be controls and planning. It is not something that can be left to "market forces".

Personally I think there are more than enough people in Britain and a balance should be struck between those wishing to leave and those who want to come in. The population cannot increase forever.

I really wish people would take emotion out of the debate about immigration and stop assuming people who want some control over immigration, rather than a free for all, as being in some way racist. When I hear that I know they have nothing worthwhile to add to the debate.

I find it deeply regrettable that the ´óÏó´«Ã½ continues to portray Migration Watch as the leading authority on immigration in Britain.

Dear Newsnight,
Just like you guys to know I'm 100% in favour sir Andrew on his argument, and even go so far as to say his opponent was living in a dreamworld with numbers numbers numbers as his only argument.
The conservatives need to be more comittive, and not be so afraid to offend - or else people are going to end up voting BMP to do something about it..I'm not promoting BMP, but if there is no other way to stop this situation getting worse i will, and so will many more voters.

With regards to the question"does immigration really benefit britain?"the answer is a firm no.Whenever some liberal vegetarian is interviewed on the ´óÏó´«Ã½ you hear the say old tired defensive arguements trundle out of their mouths"oh its could for the economy,they do the jobs we dont want to do..."Get a grip, we are looking at the end of a nation ,you only have to look at the statistics to see the the British people are voting with their feet and not there hands and leaving the country as fast as the immigrants are arriving.How do we the working class people benefit from immigration?Rising unemployment,rising crime,.NHS waiting lists,education,housing!all directly associated with immigration.a country 4 times as crowded as France!

In relation to migration, some comments from British nationals tend to come accross as if in Britain we take everything for granted and that we (in Britain) would never have to seek refuge in someone's country. Very often, fate has forced people to leave their home land and seek refuge in UK and elsewhere. So, let us not be tempted to feel as if there can never be a day when British nationals might have to seek refuge in someone's country and face comments and behaviours similar to that we are producing now. No one can totaly predict the future.

I found tonights discussion on the benefits of Immigration to be totally
inept.
Yes controlled immigration has benefits to the economy of any country.. but the open door policy adopted by the present Government is a recipe for disaster.
As far as I am aware we are the only country in the world that offers the same or even better benefits to immigrants without requiring any imput to our countries economy.
Although part of the UK, the Isle of Man insists on immigrants working for quite a few years before they are entitled to any benefits at all.
If the Government is confident of its policies why doesn't it give the Isle of Man's scheme a try I can guarantee that the serious immigration problem would be solved overnight.I also believe that an ability to speak and understand English should be an automatic requirement.

Does Newsnight not realize that today is actually Wednesday 3rd January 2007 and not 2006?

I hope you get it sorted soon! Maybe you need a Bulgarian web master, I've heard they're good and cheap these days!

With regard to the article on immigration and suggestions to place possible limits to the numbers of future immigrants allowed, perhaps I can remind you of a little quoted statistic: - The maximum number of people that our land area can feed is no more than 30,000,000. Our population currently stands close to double that. While the price of energy remains relatively low we can trade and feed ourselves from the proceeds. But in a couple of centuries, when forecasts are for oil to largely run out, what then? And, in a similar timescale, with large scale melting of the Antarctic ice sheet underway and the ultimate disappearance of 50% of the land area of England under rising seas, what then indeed? Will a future government have to institute population control policies for survival in the face of diminishing resources and so have to limit the population to around 20,000,000, all that the diminished land area will then sustain? This is only as far away as our great great grandchildren's time.

The issues are thus wider than the vacuous comments from one of the interviewees on the benefits of cheap immigrant labour for care home proprietors, etc. Personally I would like to have some confidence that just a little of the huge amount of money taken in taxation is being used to undertake such long range forecasting to measure the long term effects of current policy against. But ever since John Prescott argued for massive building projects on flood plains, it has been evident that this is still a pious hope and short-termism is still king of UK politics

Have a nice day!

Sir Andrew Green's case on tonight's debate about immigration was very important for future social cohesion.The issue is more than just economics even had the economic benefit been huge which has not been clearly demonstrated.Our public infrastructure in the South East - roads,railways,water systems, over crowding,housing etc - are factors that also must be considered.It is no surprise that this issue is so high on the public's list of concerns.However,public concerns have not been an area where the government has historically shown much interest or action.

Having just watched the end of Newsnight's debate on immigration (preceded by ITV's footage of people from the supposedly defunct Sangatte risking everything to enter Britain), I can say only this.

We could all argue forever about the finer points and the morality of Britain's immigration policy (at least we could if it had one), but the bottom line is as follows.

People like to live amongst their own. They don't like sudden, massive change. They don't care whether the influx of foreigners comes from inside the 'EU' or not, and they will increasingly vote for political parties which they believe represent their views on this issue.

The only winner here is likely to be the BNP. Still, that's democracy. If it's good enough for Iraq and Afghanistan, it's good enough for us.

Regarding the debate on immigration i found the one person questioned to be living in a world of his own. To say that allowing so many in the country does not effect the job market is nieve.

As a ex employee of MG Rover i know only to well how impossible it is to find work, not because i was unwilling to do the work but due to the fact companies now see the minimum wage as an excuse to pay low wages.

Companies know that they can now import a work force that can live on such a low income.

Immagrants come in groups, they rent an apartment and share the rent thus reducing the cost to themselfs.

One of your guests mentioned the lack of plumbers, again this is not true within the midlands area.

After MG Rover closed around 160 took plumbing courses.
I know of one that went for a job after qualifying, he was turned down as the company owner had employed two polish workers for the same as it would cost to employ one English worker.

This sort of actions is happening in every industry, companies are dropping wages to minimum wage knowing that the high cost of living makes it impossible for English to live on the income, and then employing 2 for 1 in imagrants.

How can we compete in the job market if this is the sort of actions we have to deal with?

With fuel prices going up in past year by 100%, poll tax by 30% and so on and so on... yet wage increases are at 1 to 3% how are English workers supposed to find the money?

I now have a job in wich the company has not given its workforce a wage increase in 8 yrs, this government dont even consider the fact alot of the workforce do not have a wage increase anually and yet still expect them to find the extra money each year.

Its easy for immagrants if theres 6 to 8 shareing an apartment.
The British workforce is being driven out of the job market in this country.

More and more companies are wanting bigger profits and closing the buisness here for exploiting cheaper labour in Asia.

The side effect of these actions is who can you sell your goods to?
The people you made redundant?
They are now on income support or in low income jobs trying to survive with ever increasing taxes.

Since Labour came to office they have created more stealth taxes than any other previous party.
I do not support any party but i have always seen labour as a government that wastes money, what ever happend to the millinium dome?
100 million of tax payers money for a one year project.
Wouldnt it have been cheaper to pay the workforce to have stayed home?

Its nice to see that minimum wage of the major workforce in this country can go up by 20 pence a year while the MP's can go up by thousands.

How much hypocrisy must we take from these freeloaders who have done nothing but make workers in this country poorer.

Laws need to be inforced, if a English worker applys for a job and are qualified to do the job they must have priority.

There are plenty of English drivers willing to work and yet why is it when i stay in Poland i find adverts by national express and west midlands travel for drivers? Answer CHEAP LABOUR!

hi
i just wounder why goverment didnt use immigrant who was stay for long time in uk without permit for work and enter some people new in uk and he has to do lots of job for them ( improve language , cancel house , child benefit,,,,)

I think they do benefit Britain because who will do the dirty and lower jobbs.The immigrants took thier food culture and all the buisnesis they do and how many jobbs they have created and other positive things besides the negative ones.What about British people when they went to other continents and lived there and even took presious things with them when they return like kohinoor.Now its the other way around.If there was peace and stability in(immigrants) their own countries why should they move.Its not so easy to immigrate from one place to another and leave every thing behind and become an alien for ever because no one will except them.

I haven't (yet) read the Antiquity article on a sort of proto-Germanic stratum in Britain (not England, please - not till the historic Angles get here) - but if what was broadcast was a fair summary then it is a load of little things people play tennis with. OK, the termination -ey MAY represent a word for island, but more often than not the preceding consonant should be taken in too: ley, ney, etc. all have different meanings. See any volume of Mawer and Stenton's Place Names series. And I totally refuse to have my given name attributed to proto-Germanic.
To turn to more serious matters, that was one of the best-tempered discussions of immigration I have heard for some time.

I find it strange that in discussions about immigration, there is scant mention made of the physical size of the U.K. We all seem to be agreed that there are worrying levels of traffic congestion, lack of housing, shrinking countryside, etc., all pointing to the need to recognise that our resources are finite. If the envisaged increase in immigrants becomes actuality (and bearing in mind the impossibility of knowing the true figures), I see little evidence of forward planning by the government.

I'm tempted to think that reports of overseas holidays enjoyed by our leaders may well include reconnaissance as an activity.

That chap proposing mass immigration was a beancounter of the first water, and not even a good one. As another chap in the studio said, immigration isn't just about money.

What shall it profit a man if he gives the future of his country away to immigrants just so he can have a Polish childminder now? Change the people and you change the character of a country.

I think the proponents of mass immigration really only have the political objective of destroying nations, but they can't say that so they try and put an economic gloss on it.

What's the cost of all those White Flighters fleeing multicultural London and Birmingham to clog up the monocultural westcountry? Where did Mr Beancounter factor that in his accounts? Where was the debit for the London bus bombings? Where was the debit for the psychological damage and loss of freedoms caused by state repression of the English needed to facilitate full-on forced multiculturalism?

I live in a monocultural part of Britain, what are all these jobs that white British people won't do, and why aren't I suffering from this alleged workshyness? My bins get emptied by English dustmen, the public loos get cleaned by English cleaners, the taxi drivers are English, the traffic wardens are English etc. However, I think it's true to say that you'll always be able to get someone from a third world country to undercut an Englishman in his own country. Perhaps we should all live ten to a room on minimum wage eh?

I did love that example the pro-immigration chap gave of a merchant banker being able to go to work because they can get a cheap child-minder! Woohoo, that's really going to sway the average person in favour of immigration isn't it!

It's all going to end very badly, and then his balance sheet will look like a very sick joke.

I'd rather be £40 a week worse off, let alone 4p, than see the destruction being wrought on the social fabric of England by this madness continue.

Andy

Quite simply those with professional, well established careers have nothing to fear regarding immigration, it's those that are starting out, or in low to mid income jobs that are affected and have most to fear from unlimited foreign migration to the UK.

Just imagine if Gavin Esler turned on the telly one day to see several thousand eastern european journalists / news presenters with fantastic credentials disembarking at Dover and willing to take up his job for half the pay, seven days a week, 365 days a year and ready to share a 2 room bedsit with 8 others, Gavin would perhaps then see the concerns of ordinary people and challenge those people on the program that argue for immigration.

Ministers, MPs, business leaders, economists have nothing to worry about, but these are the people that ultimately make decisions on our country's future. Ultimately, the poor will suffer and will never be listened to.

Let's face it the UK is a free and open society that welcomes people from all cultures. We should not let it be exploited. So many migrants already seem to be complaining, given the opportunity about how ungrateful we are, and how much they have the right to be in the UK, without any concerns or sympathy for the feelings of the indigenous population.

Ref David Cox #2

Some viewers may be able too, others are not or are but want something else in addition.

A good NCA program is also going to ensure that viewers (licence payers in the millions) get to the essence of a story, not simply have to listen to the unchallenged rhetoric of participants / protagonists.

On NN I would argue that issues effecting people get aired, & people/orgs get their 15 mins in the context of a pressing issues/story.

The interviewer may need to act as an enabler or agent provocateur acting as 'in loco parentis' for viewers.

Sometimes this can be achieved by simply getting the right guests ready to do battle in the context of the right story.

Other times its requires a bit of a prod in various places to get it going / fan the flames.

NN has always been just more than a agenda / debating platform for participants to show their wares (that role fulfilled by too many in the media).

NN is surely an accountability arena for protagonists & the interviewer is our 'impartial' champion * (majority of time)

* many desire NN to flush out real issues, policy/agenda & opinions of participants, esp when 'fog of war' is intentionally descends

WHO GETS WHAT:

1) participants / protagonists get the opportunity to communicate their message & get exposure (within the context of a story)
2) ´óÏó´«Ã½ in effect fulfilling the role as Event Management.
3) NN can justify the bill for lights by coordinating the NCA entertainment, relating real issues/stories impacting viewers real lives.
3) Viewers - get an appreciation/understanding of an issue/story in greater depth/alternative angle, hitherto not covered adequately (or at all) by other media.

Either way, NN definitely worth pennies in my £131.50 - TV Licence [1]

Q. Peter Baron, to what extent is NN output reused by rest of Beeb and/or other media? **

** both providing influence & revenue - one hopes

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1] /info/licencefee/

What planet is phillipe legraine on? Wages are being driven down,we have a new breed of criminal on our streets who operates in another culture entirely and we have "no go areas" where the norm is "no english allowed".You can't get a job in the food or construction industry unless you speak polish or some other language and landowners are turning out caravan sites the like of which our Gypsy population could only dream of.If that is not a sub-culture then what is.We have to stop people like him undermining what was a good country for the sake of good relations with bad neighbours.I have literally been driven out of my job as have many others in the food industry because i don't speak polish,or because I demand a living wage.Meanwhile our economy is being sent home to countries we already support and no doubt will end up supporting further.What does it mean when you go into a proud town like Boston and are warned of the places you can't go because you are English. Gangers in East Anglia only employ foreign workers.Becuase "they" don't like us and "we" don't like them.They contribute nothing but alienation. And as for not claiming benefits.....that is a lie as certain authorities are paying benefits to migrants who have been here six months without a job.We are getting sold down the river while our brave boys are off giving their lives for causes that have nothing to do with us.What will those lads and lasses come home to? Well it won't be the same place they left to fight for and that's a fact.You can also rest assured that they won't get the slightest respect from those they protect.How many people are aware that the status of the Isle Of Man was changed to a "dependancy" to allow thousands of Hong Kong money launderers into our country without raising an eyebrow? Don't trust what you are told...Trust what you see.

I find the immigration debate in the UK rather amusing. In light of the recent report that 10% of the UK's population have emigrated elsewhere, most people probably know someone close, a relative or friend who left Britain to live in another country. How should they be looked upon and treated by the locals there, any differently than immigrants are treated in the UK? Something worth thinking about. Here in the US we have a constant stream of immigrants from all over the world. Most of us can trace our own ancestry to immigrants who arrived just a few generations ago. We'll take anyone in...even Brits.

There's nothing more irritating than watching a debate on TV, on a subject such as immigration, when the answer to anybody with a bit of common sense is so obvious - immigration has to be controlled.

Every civilzed country on this planet has adopted such a system because otherwise the infrastructure would not be able to cope and the rights of its citizens deminished.

The issue of EU immigration to the UK is particularly serious as no other EU country is the destination of choice for the majority of people in the new EU member states. London is a magnet for everyone and is destined to become the shanti town of Europe.

The immigration/migration pros & cons have been UNDER- debated for years because of those liberal lefties who shout racism whenever the subject arises. Migration Watch gives firm statistics,I believe politically unbiased, as oppossed to goverment statistics which are totally unbelievable & politically motivated .Tonights quartet... two politicians, migration watch were basically in accord whereas the other(sorry didn't get the name)was totally off course.
For short term economics mass migration is a definate plus.. but longer term, especially if migrants become immigrants, public services that are at present at a premium & in trouble with provisions(NHS, Transport, Housing,etc)would be further severly strained by sheer numbers seeking all the welfare services...& i'm not just talking cash, that would be their right to claim?.The indigenous unemployed must be made to take up any/all work offered after a period or lose their rights to benefits... of course easier said than done...but isn't that what good governance is all about!The fourth member made some points about au pairs & the like allowing women/mothers going back to work...the was picked up very quickly by the Labour MP as being totally irrelevent.. Good!
It needs thoughful migration planning..shouldn't be too much to expect of any government, if not sorted out soon.... expect dire consequences.!!
Oprah... what a lovely generous lady...no politics there...how refreshing.

i think the composer of No 10 has asked some valid questions...I dont think i am alone in having friends whose families have 'paid into the pot' via income tax for generations, whose lives have unexpectedly come apart at the seams and find that they don't have a chance of getting housed and very little in the way of benefits. From that positon its somewhat galling to see some foreigner with a slight limp and 6 children qualify for a house, a car, £300 a week benefits plus free schooling and NHS..(far and away more than he would ever get in his country of origin) oh and i forgot...the kitchen is being modernised for him by the council.

Anyone from anywhere has a better chance of support that our own people it seems, and what is this enormous, cumbersome, ineffective and expensive benefit system for?

Charity begins at home sometimes.

I do not believe the indigenous British need, and, more importantly most do not want, mass immigration since it will surely undermine their ascendency in their own homeland. There may be a case, tho' I'm not convinced, for the introduction of large numbers of 'guest workers' who come to work but have no right to settle permanently or have political rights. There w'd be no shortage of people who w'd be willing to come to Britain on this basis should we want them (perhaps so native Brits can retire early on good pensions) just as there are many British people who work as 'guest workers'/ ex-pats in places such as Saudi, Dubai,.... Native Britons who are immigration enthusiasts should consider the Red Indian (or Maori, or Aborigine,or Fijian,or...) experience: mass immigration wasn't good for them tho' it was certainly very good for the immigrants who displaced them.

I am worried that immigration is creating a boom and bust situation this is only a small country we are already seeing the problems in housing, hospitals,transport,pensions,water, prisions,ect and that is in a few years. Immigrants are not stupid they will sooner or later want higher wages because of the high cost of living in this country, if i remember right you needed a lot of money behind you to get into australia, the goverment needs to get a grip of the situation very soon because 10 years from now it will be a mess.

Having read most of the comments , seemingly the majority is firmly AGAINST mass migration/immigration... Politicians would do well to read, take note, & act firmly & quickly,taking measures to limit numbers & protect our boarders... NOW!
What we do not want is more spin & soundbites from this ineffective government !in it's swansong year.

What the pro-immigrationists always ignore in their arguments are the social repercussions on British life.

Traffic congestion, crowded trains, shortages of housing, school places, prison places, energy shortages, and at various times either exacerbated water shortages or extra flooding dangers.

There is also the damage done to British industry by traffic congestion or water/energy problems that has to be included in all economic arguments.

Then there is the problem of educating children who speak no English at all. Again the extra costs of this have to be included.

We also face increased ethnic tensions and terrorist threats and increased crime.

They also ignore completely the damage done to the countries from where the immigrants have come from. So if Poland suffer a shortage of doctors and nurses and their old people are abandoned, do they give a hoot about them. Of course not.

But the worst of all is the undercutting of the local workforce by cheap labour. Fine for all those who stay in hotels and go to restaurants often but what about the working classes forced out of jobs and onto benefits?

What economic sense is there in that?

Stop mass immigration and businesses will be forced to pay higher wages that will tempt the unemployed back to work.

As this includes stopping European immigration as well the only realistic option is to pull out of the corrupt, bureaucratic, wasteful empire of the EU, which makes economic sense anyway.

What pro anti-immigration people are purposely ignoring to mention in this debate, is the fact that Britain has massively benefited from colonial exploitation. This has contributed to greatly destabilise the normal cycle of development for certain societies. At least in the case of current immigration, none of the new immigrants to UK is coming to Britain with projects and means such as those which drove Henry Stanley and David Livingston to 'explore' the world!

Sent too much money home?

Come on! Instead of sending "much money" back to China, I myself am being sending back by the guilty government, after 3 months working in London as a so-called HSMP (Highly Skilled Migrant Program).

My status as a migrant:

1. Came to the UK with my wife in June 2006, bringing with 14,800 pounds.
2. Had spent 9,500 pounds before I got my current job in October. (All for settling down here, a bitter process)
3. I receive 3,340 pounds a month from my empoyer. After tax, it's about 2400 pounds. I pay for flat rental 650 pounds a month, 80 pounds for gas/elec/water a month, about 110 pounds for council tax, about 10 pounds for TV license, about 150 pounds for travelling, 30 pounds for landline and broadband, 35 pounds for mobile, estimated 800-1000 pounds for food/shopping/misc etc. That's about 2000 pounds altogether. How much money do you think I can send back to China?
4. All in all, I came in June, spent 15,000 pounds in the UK, got a good job and paid 3,000 pounds income/NI related tax . And now, I must quit my job and go back to China due to the guilty government breaching the contact by changing the HSMP rules on 7 Nov 2006 and applying it on me retrospectively.

Do you think it's good enough for your feeling? British people?

In reference to the story of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon origins surely the lynchpin should rest upon the Roman literary sources. In support of the idea of Germanic people already inhabiting England at the arrival of the Romans we can compare the continental situation as recorded by Caesar where the Celtic lands were routinely being absorbed by Germanic expansions e.g. Cimbri and Teutones and thus it is not unfeesable to witness a similar situation in Britain.
However if such an invasion did occur why is that Tacitus, writing after the invasion of Claudius, never mentions Germanic inhabitation but rather refers to the inhabitants of England as being Gaulish in appearance. Personally as a proud Celt myself I do not subscribe to this new theory. Whats more how can we debate who should have the right to work and live in these Islands when we cannot even decide who is native, to refer to the current population as indegenous is quite frankly a lie.

Sir Andrew Green is a national hero. He is prepared to stand up for British national interests in the immigration debate in the face of the overwhelming firepower of the CBI, the ideologues of the main political parties, misguided trade union leaders and the self-styled 'liberal' media. Mass immigration does not contibute positively to the lives of ordinary people in the UK.

It hardly matters how lovely or not immigrants are. We all know nice ones. There are just too many from everywhere and some are not so nice, all too often exploiting their own kind. The politicians (mostly part-time MPs who have other strings to their bows)don't care. Why should they? Often, they being of the middle and upper classes (whatever their stated politics) are recipients of the benefit of cheap labour provided by trades, cleaners, nannies, cooks, bottle-washers, etc. It's never they who have to squash up in over-priced housing, join clinic queues at the hospital, fight for their childrens' school places and so on.
Shops close to me provide everything immigrants have in their homelands (packets and tins with labels not in English) so our balance of payments must be shot to pieces, even without counting any money being sent "home".
Also, what about Council Tax? Do the authorities imagine that single transients declare how many are at an address and meekly pay up? So whether they contribute to national tax or not (doubtful in many cases where they are counted as self-employed) local taxes are unpaid.
Whatever immigrants' status they can start using the free-at-point of delivery NHS. And public housing - unless one has just entered the UK you stand no chance.
EU workers are taking a lot of the limelight, but why was not the immigration from elsewhere cut immediately to allow for the influx from EU countries?
I wanted a part-time retirement job - not fussy about doing dogsbody stuff as I wasn't qualified - but guess what, all possible jobs had been taken by younger immigrants, who frequently have two or three "unofficial" odd-hours jobs, so I can speak personally about that side of it.
Furthermore, all Council literature is printed in part in an ever-growing number of languages, offering interpreter services, including the parking control office.
Last week I received an NHS-sent letter stating that if I did not answer within the deadline I would be removed from my doctor's list. That, too, was printed in several languages.
I am sure there are recruitment posters in many countries, inviting workers here - not least in Africa, aimed towards recruiting parking attendants in London Boroughs.

Economic migration is economically good for the host nation as well as the immigrant. British people would not buy the immigrant’s labour if it weren’t a good deal for them, too. But it is slightly beside the point as immigrants are only an economic boon in three ways.
Firstly, we do not have to pay for their education. But what about their children? This boon relies on ever-increasing immigration to maintain a sustainable demographic proportion of working age adults.
Secondly, they are likely to be less work-shy than certain lazy British people, as they do not come from a welfare culture. This too, however, is unsustainable. Sooner or later they too will refuse to do menial jobs when they learn a similar income can be earned through filling in government forms.
Thirdly, they bring with them new entrepreneurship and management qualities, providing British economic society with a jolt of energising competition. This boon, however, suffers from the laws of diminishing marginal return. An ethnic restaurant may improve life for people, but the second and third ones add progressively less.

The downside to all this is the disharmony and resentment clearly showing in most normal people (ie, not Newsnight-watching politicos!) and the strain on capital and infrastructure that is already at or near capacity.

Legraine should not pretend to be using the tools of economic analysis when his arguments are largely, if not entirely, founded on multicultural political ideology.

After watching a very interesting Newsnight discussion on immigration I was surprised and annoyed at Gavin Esler's 'summing up' at the end. He gave an inaccurate, simplistic and misleading impression of the arguments. Until we get away from the idea that immigration concerns are a simple left/right split, we shall never find a reasonable solution to the problems which affect both immigrants and the indigenous population. To talk of the 'benefits' of investment bankers being able to go back to work because they can get a cheap nanny is unbelievable and insulting tosh! Who is that man? I've never heard such rubbish in my life. Paying immigrants below the going rate and making them live in sub standard accommodation is immoral, and also undercuts British workers who, rightly, won't and can't work in those conditions. To hear people like Phillipe Legraine posing as a 'friend of immigrants' is frankly sickening. He is just a rich man enjoying the benefits of a new. cheap 'servant class' and masquerading as a liberal.

I am astounded that this debate was restricted to immigration from Eastern-Europe. It was even stated within the debate that only one in five of UK immigrants are from Eastern-Europe!
What about immigration from South Asia--does that not count? The impact of immigration from totally different cultures has to have more impact than the arrival of fellow Europeans, surely? The Prime-Minister was recently quoted as saying that 60% of Muslims over 25 in the UK are not in employment. Should we not be debating ALL immigration here?

I find it so iresponsible and conteptible that the media,new labour,and all the establishment can not,will not,see what the population,and any one with half of one brain cell can see is this small island is now more crowded than third world countrys like Bangladesh,but these countrys could not put their population in houses piped to water,gas,drainage,and electricity,the enviroment would collapse,and as the third world will continue to in ever greater numbers join the "asylum seekers" already here it will be inevitable the enviroment will collapse.This will happen without the consent of the people,and democracy could be destroyed,along with law and order.Anyone with any humanity would take sensible steps to stop this,but so far the only "honourable" MP I have seen is Franck Field

i watched with interest last nights programme, as coming from ireland we are and will experience the same problems which exist in england today regarding immigration.

i have to agree with the gentleman who supports the idea of setting a limit on the amount of migrants allowed to enter ones country each year, the reason being that it takes time for the migrant to settle and assimilate and also for the host population to become accepting of the people who speak a different language and who do not share a culture similar to that of the host country.

in ireland we have experienced a boom (begining in the early part of the nineties), and the country which existed twenty years ago would not recognise the country which exists today. in those dark days of economic famine many irish had to migrate - be it to the united kingdom or america, ireland and the uk share a common heritage and with the united states (in the late part of the nineteenth century - at least)it was a new country with little history but a shared common tongue. therefore some in ireland say "how can we not afford the chance of a new life, a new begining to those who wish to travel to our land as we were afforded that opportunity both by england and america" ah! i say: but ireland does not have a history of immigrants flocking here, this is a new experience for us, we should take our time, slowly slowly.
i agree with that gentleman who said it was a moral obligation to restrict the amount that flock to your green and pleasant land.

there are many social problems both with you and with us, it is only fair and right that we try and solve these problems with the people already in difficulty and not to inflate the problem with more who will arrive in the future.

this debate has nothing to do with money, nor discrimination, but what is right. common sense must return to debates for the sake of the twenty first century.

Great Britan has entered the European Union and still, many years later, even the ´óÏó´«Ã½ is rude enough to call the Europeans immigrants.
Vast majority of those Europeans who are in the UK didn't come to spend their lives here. Somone should make sure that people working e.g. in care have adequate level of English. There are much less than 600 000 Eastern Europeans in the UK at the moment. They do not immigrate. It is not immigration.

You can leave the EU if you don't like the free movement of workforce within Europe or wait for a while until the economic imbalance between the UK and Eastern Europe will smooth out. Even the Conservatives know that the economic imbalance isn't there because the British work so much harder. There is much more to the membership in the EU than the free movement of workforce. Imagine how the UK would negotiate business with China as a relatively small island just of the shore of Europe. The UK would not get a good price. And look what you have at home and where it was made.

If I imagine a number of foreigners coming to my home country, then I would welcome them as long as they come live amongst the indigenuous population.
It is a big mistake of not only British but of nearly all Western European governments, that they don't do anything against the growth of ghettos in their cities.

The realisation that the views of phillipe legraine are typical of the present administration making the important decisions on Immigration makes sense when you realise that Tony Blair is ultimately responsible for the current dangerous policies and they would probaly be in complete agreement on this madness,his Home secratary David Blunckett stated he could see no reson for any limit on the numbers of immigrants allowed here,a child would realise you would have a limit when the water resources could no longer sustain the population as just one of dozens of obvious reasons. How out of touch can new labour and politicians in general get before they realise they are in office to represent the democratic will of the people,and what worries me is we seem to be in the position where the democratic will of the people is represented NOWHERE in parlament, and with honourable exceptions like Franck Field is being ignored.

What a frustrating edition, although interesting.

The powers that be are concerned about that phone video getting around rather than about what happened in that Baghdad gallows chamber, aren't they! Astounding idiocity.

The pro-immigration representative in the debate was a disaster; cheap childcare helping stockbrokers return to work and no one Britsh wanting to care for the old, indeed! And who checks the backgrounds of these carers for the vulnerable? Did you verify his credentials? Was he an agent provocateur? Anne Cryer's point about foreign workers having huge deductions from their minimum wages surely needs investigation. Is that legal? I cannot see how that can be part of an open labour market. They would certainly be undercutting other's wages and standard of living if that is the case, and being an impovershed underclass we have never intended. Dip your toes into the world of the working class, why don't you, and from their point of view, not that of the professional looking for cheap services. There are working-class Newsnight viewers you know, whatever your market research might say.

Why didn't GE ask Oprah just how her school is intended ot teach for leadership? What selection criteria did she use, what teaching will that entail? She seemed to have it thought out, wouldn't it have been worthwhile asking? When I see how state schools are treated here, with a total lack of such vision except for a bit of sponsorship of city academies by christian fundamentalists, chopped around to simply allocate so many desk spaces geographically, Oprahs's creating a school that stands for something, that is intended to empower children (indeed girls) is a stirring alternative.

The piece on our ethnic history was terribly confused. The Celtic poet banging on about pasties was a terrible idea. An Iranian friend of mine was excited to find, when she visited Cornwall, that all the "cornish" place names made sense to her as descriptions in Persian; your roadsign-historians need to look a bit further back. Just what does that book on our genetic history say, and why would it be any revelation that the traditional view is mythical? Has no one else read Caesar's description of the people here when his armies landed (they wrote Greek), or the tribes they often massacred or shipped into slavery? The Romans, and then various competing waves of christians wreaked havoc on our oral and written histories (indeed deliberately destroying the libraries), so myth is the foremost account that exists, very resistant to revelations from the fragments of better evidence that have survived and emerged, or this new DNA research. Let the "Celtic" folk singers and tourist guides have their resentments and romanticism, since it gives them pleasure, but could someone please write some better stuff for the those of us who aren't (as far as we know) Cornish, Welsh, or Scottish? Enough of this very suspect, indeed most often fake, "pure blood" worship at the top of the tree. We're mostly a mixed-blood nation, aren't we? The outcome of shipping, trade, refuge, invasion? Isn't that a sign of acceptance, integration, a mature, stable society, rather than something we should be made to feel third-class about - as many of the non-"Celt" interviewees obviously did? Can we not celebrate that, whilst also, separately, valuing the history of the land and the places, that our forebears may, or may not have also experienced?

Can we conclude that the EU agenda is the destruction of the individual Nation State?

Upon another viewing; so UK employers go to agencies specialising in foreign recruitment in order to save money? Not much of a chance there for locals to get a look in. That's for the work they haven't managed to export already, or the whole companies they haven't cashed in. At one time it was a matter of pride that people created good jobs, saved families, and helped their local communities. The class war reached a whole new dimension. They will now do anything but employ someone British, it seems. How did democratic control get nullified? Ah, the continuing fruits of Thatcherism.

Ref Richard KAPEND #84

"What pro anti-immigration people are purposely ignoring to mention in this debate, is the fact that Britain has massively benefited from colonial exploitation"

What? … incredibly rich ... as if the pro foreign nationals lobby have ever acknowledge there is a negative downside to influxes of millions of people from different cultures & societies.

Your comments reads like a typical reactionary sound bite from the lefty perspective which promotes the idea that the UK is liable to pay a blank cheque regarding social REPARATIONS, cultural REPARATIONS & economic REPARATIONS ….. payable to anyone with an historical gripe against the UK

i.e. some judge we carried out injustices too others, they are entitled to do it too us & we should not complain or speak up in any way about the Positive & NEGATIVE effects on British Society from the hundreds of thousands if not millions of foreign nationals who have descended on the UK (esp Post WWII).

Moreover, this active & vocal minority still promotes the notion that we should overturn our society & hang our collective cultural & institutional heads in shame in order to appease this liberal left minority whose conscious regarding notions of reparations is enshrined in their eschewed interpretation of history regarding social justice (victim & perpetrator) so they are entitled to realise a form of SOCIAL JUSTICE which can ride rough shod over both reality & history … & impose it on us all …. but who gave them the power or right to do that … NO-ONE !

Personally, based on that twisted rationale, as a mongrel Brit looking forward to both compensation cheques from the Romans & the Normans - address anybody?

Ref foreign nationals:

- IMMIGRANTS - yes *
- ASYLUM SEEKERS - yes *

* sustainable numbers processed in a managed, accountable & controlled environment, entry according too criteria that benefits the UK & meets its international obligations.

The Left & Liberal Left are so out of touch with mainstream society on this one, no wonder people are not listening too them or looking too them for answers (esp given their other failed & failing impositions: multiculturalism, PC'ism & 'Right On' agenda) which lay at the root of social disharmony in the UK.

vikingar

Your blog entry got it slightly wrong on Oprah's school. Strange as the idea might seem to you, the leadership ability the school is intended to help the girl pupils attain is not just amongst girls, but their whole society, and maybe wider afield too. Do try not to make such patronising gaffes.

At last the ´óÏó´«Ã½ handle the issue of immigration basically fairly. Though they still give the final word to the pro-mass immigration supporters, and allowed the pro to 'reply' as it were to the anti in his clip. I felt the pro also got allowed to interupt too much, and his bad manners were allowed to pay off, whilst the chap from migration watch, never got time to respond to each (dubious) point the former made.

It said on the programme after the debate that there would be a poll on this site. Has it closed?

All said, well done Newsnight on an interesting and thought provoking piece of television.

This debate is focusing on entirely the wrong aspects of immigration into the UK.

The real point is that this country is overcrowded and virtually all of the UK's infrastructure already cannot cope.

Limits should be set purely based upon poulation size.

Gavin Esler introduced Sir Andrew Green as being against immigration.
He's in favour of controlled immigration.

Just to set the record straight Aunty.

You ought to know better.

Gavin Ester's chairing of he debate on immigration last night was ghastly. He had four well informed people with interesting things to say even if you don't share their views. What we got [and too often get from your overrated A-team] was interruption interruption interruption and however hard one tried it was difficult to find out where the discussion was leading. When you add the habit of trying to put words into people's mouths [JP and KW are just as bad] I sometimes think I must have got Stockholm syndrome to stay up watching it which I do. my wife thinks so anyway.

I know it must be painful to deal with those [often but not always politicians] who arrive having memorised a script and when questioned go back to the beginning and start again [Hazel Blears is a good example] but you actually have some good people who hardly ever get on nowadays. Emily Maitlis and Martha Kearney for a start and some recent and now disappeared people like Alan Little and Eddie Mair who was brilliant plus people like Liz Mckean and Stephanie Flanders who get off the bench occasionally. Their secret if you look is that they don't start with accusations [JP has long got beyond parody] ask open ended questions and then SHUT UP and let the victim talk. If he's talking tripe it usually shows pretty quickly. Women apart from KW who is sui generis seem t do it much better. Why not give the terrible trio a spell?

See you this evening just the same

JP

Yet again we have seen a slanted and selective debate on immigration, this time where a study on immigration as a whole got narrowed down to the part-benefits that eastern European farm-workers and returning to work investment banker nannies bring to the economy.

Is there nobody capable of debating the real issue on immigration, one that separates immigration from the need to import skills that are necessary to help build the economy? Can we not acknowledge the effect that ethnic immigration is having on inner-city England? Where arranged marriage and dependent relative immigration is nothing more than a conduit for fuelling an even larger unskilled and illiterate workforce? And that’s before we’ve even considered how each new family member is yet another backward step in cultural tolerance, never mind cultural harmony.

It is no wonder that confidence is so low in the Government’s ability to understand what makes people so energised on this subject: which is amazing when it will only take an afternoon in Alum Rock Birmingham for them to find out!

In this debate on imigration new labour has kindly given the people and conservatives "permision to discuss the issue honestly" but the people discuss among themselves the issue as it is in the real world were in,while politicians are talking to themselves in whatever the P.C. party line is.The truth is much of the worlds population dont have a house and giro cheque each week and nothing now will persuade them that getting to britain will provide housing and "free" money.As much as I wish this could be provided,anyone who is living in the real world knows it is madness.

I live in an area of London with a high concentration of European immigrants and I can honestly say that I have yet to see an Eastern European begging for money.I did encounter one man who had been sleeping rough.He claimed that he had to leave Poland because he could find no other way to feed his family.Whatever the reality,there is no doubt that there is a great deal of tension about immigration here,principally because the British feel that they have little democratic voice in the whole situation.

Andrew Green is a National Hero?

No, Liam Byrne is the true one!

The current Immigration Minister has been dumping Highly Skilled Migrants as rubish.

If you go to have a look at the website: www.hsmpforum.com. Those anti-immigration British would be extremely pround of what your government have done.

They lured us into this country and promised to give us permanent residence if we work here as Highly Skilled Migrants for 4 years. Then they retrospectively changed the rules to prevent us becoming lazy Brithish wanna-be.

I first came here as student. My tuition fees were more than 10 times higher than my British coursemates. I am now paying more than 25% of my income to you. Because I can not claim any benefit here, I have to save all my money here for a raining day.

I have paid for everything I have here from the first day. Some British people still see me as a cheap labour.

In order to describe us as robbers in this country, Andrew Green disvalues us only worthing 4p to each of you and blames us taking out 10 million pounds a day from this country.

Let's do a simply calculation:
If 10 million pounds a day are all our saving.

Based on the fact of high living expense in this country, especially in London, because most of immigrants are working in London, we have to spend at least another 10 million pounds to maintain our living.

So our wages are 20 million pounds a day after tax.

A reasonable asumption is that our employers have made at leat 5 times of our wages for them. Therefore we help our employers to make 100 million pounds a day!

We only take 10% out from what we make to you, if you think Andrew Green is right!

As A MIGRATION WATCH supporter I watched tonights programme with great interest. Surprised the ´óÏó´«Ã½ had the balls to allow Sir Andrew Green coverage and the opportunity to present a non-establishment view of whats ( to anyone with eyes and common sense) going on in this country. Aside from what was presented by Sir Alan Green I thought the rest of the interviewees had nothing of interest or real relevance to say on the matter. In future the ´óÏó´«Ã½ would do well to give Migration Watch more air time as clearly people want to hear what they say, the ´óÏó´«Ã½ represents the people??

Ref Steve #110

".....Surprised the ´óÏó´«Ã½ had the balls to allow Sir Andrew Green coverage and the opportunity to present a non-establishment view ..."

Actually Steve to be fair, have noticed a distinct shift in ´óÏó´«Ã½ editorial policy since Autumn 2005 ref debates about society, culture & foreign nationals.

Of NCA programmes, Newsnight has been consistently at the forefront of this repositioning.

One hopes & presumes the national broadcaster is rightly vocalising & examining these pressing issues of high importance too the vast majority of British mainstream society.

About time too, given the Left & certain Liberal quarters have intentionally stifled debate for 30-40 years & engaged in their usual muting & false outing tactics.

vikingar

Ref vickingar #100
It is clear that you too have given a reactionary lecture of my coments. However, the point I was trying to make is that there will always be people attempting anything in order to go wherever they think their lives would be better off or safe. I am still convinced that Immigration has both benefited and threatened the British society. Yes people must complain and speak up about these issues when things go wrong. but sometimes we over do it and forget to mention the moral duty that Britain as a nation must perform.

Ref British culture.
I doubt there still much of it left, however the social disharmony this seems to generate.

Richard

Ref Richard KAPEND #112

"Ref British culture. I doubt there still much of it left, however the social disharmony this seems to generate."

Nope .... loads of British Culture, British Mainstream Society, British Shared Common Values etc.

And 'disharmony' exists, wherever you have people & interaction/relationships.

But different forms of disharmony exist as the direct consequence of certain decisions & actions by certain peoples.

Virtually unregulated waves of foreign nationals into the UK (post war) have had both Positive but also NEGATIVE impact (weighted according to what & how such is measured).

But the Left do not wish to acknowledge & debate the NEGATIVE, but the vast majority of British society do & will do so (esp since the consequence of the failure to have done so has so effected cultural cohesion in this country for 30-40 years)

No preventive alternatives too mitigate this NEGATIVE impact has been previously 'allowed' to be openly discussed (intentional muting & false outing by Left) we are now reactively having to respond.

There has been two sides to the Lefts societal coin (its alternative plans for our nation & their notion of social justice etc) over the last 30-40 years:

- change the culture: via foreign national influx (also addressing their notion of REPARATION for British History)
- change the society via multiculturalism, encroaching PC'ism & 'right on' agenda & the pursuit of the extension of 'rights' to anarchic proportions

The ship that was Liberal Left & Left societal policies long foundered on the Rocks of Reality

… so what is emerging is a growing demand for a 'Renaissance of Rights' on issues across the board & those calls will get only louder for a rebalance.

Ours is a 'moral duty' to defend what enables The United Kingdom (warts & all) & prevent it becoming another failed neo-socialist state *

* you would think the left would have had enough proof that socialism, communism etc in all its flavours has utterly failed around the world.

vikingar

Unemployment rates are at a 7 year high...surely it does not make sense to have open borders. The labour government are living fantasy dream world.

I own a small UK based company and I do employ eastern europeans, however I am totally against the idea of free borders and mass immigration from eastern europe. I have been employing lots of eastern europeans in the past... and over the last 20 years I have never had a problem finding cheap labour before and they have all had temporary work permits)...where is new-labour finding all of these imaginary jobs from?...why dont they just give work permits when needed instead of allowing mass movement?..it is manufacturing industries like mine that are hit first in economic downturns and it is these people who will lose their jobs first...migrant labour is only good in the short term to allow for changes in the economic cycle. In the long term quality of living for the poorer class will deplete. At the moment these migrants live 10 in a house or something like that...what happens when they want houses..have kids?...labour forecasts about economic gain to the economy dont take into consideration these factors.

Ref Vikingar #113
"you would think the left would have had enough proof that socialism, communism etc in all its flavours has utterly failed around the world".

Perhaps you are trying to say that the people who have elected an alleged socialist 'ish' gouvernment in this country since 1997 are less enlightened than you pretend to be!

I can put to you that governments from left right middle etc.. all have failed to address serious issues that preoccupy societies. Result, the total mess in which the world is at the moment.

You are by default labelling me as a LEFTIST which I might not be and I do not know what to say about that. What I know is that things might be far more complicated than you think your theories are able to explain in such a restrained and incomplete debate via this forum.

However, let me acknoweledge the fact that you seem very clever and have a fantastic writing and presentational skill. Still, this is not good enough to make your theories change this world to be a better place.

Ref British culture.
Why don't we agree to meet up somewhen after 250 years in order to assess what will remain from the alleged British culture or even the British society?
Perhaps we definitely need people like you to help preserve the British culture or society forever!

Q: Where is the Roman Empire?
A: Stuck in History.

Maybe you are trying hard to stop history with your hands!

Richard

It is tragic that elected politicians in a suposed democracy can be so much out of touch with the people it is there duty to represent. I have followed politics of all parties for decades,but in any debate like immigration,I realise from experience it is a waste of time to even listen to what they have to say,Ive been hearing the same things for ten years,and they are talking a P.C. language divorced from reality and the electorate,meanwhile,taking just one aspect they dont debate honestly,such as housing, I find that houses are being built in peoples gardens or any space that can be found with sewarage forcing off manhole covers where the infrastructure isnt there.Prescot wants the housing estates to pack in more to the acre than they already our,they have just announced a new policy of anyone is able to add more extensions to housing with out the need for any permision,and so on,but surly politicians have the sense to see that even if they concrete the entire south east,it will still be futile,as there will still be countless millions in the world who will come here for a house and income they currently dont have.

Given low skilled job in the UK.

Should we surprised that New Labour:

1) prefers to sign up to conventions that allow foreign workers to do jobs (then all they have to do is tax)

RATHER THAN

2a) have to tackle the long term unemployed & benefits dependency in the country.

For New Labour * new forms of Labour …. is too irresistible.

* the party & thinking that brought you the dome fiasco

EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION

New Labour have utterly failed to address adult reskilling & retraining issues, which lie at the heart of benefits dependency & unemployment in the UK.

Or take the other difficult & unpopular but necessary decisions [1]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]

Ref Richard KAPEND #113

"Maybe you are trying hard to stop history with your hands!"

Nice One Centurion :)

"Ref British culture. Why don't we agree to meet up somewhen after 250 years in order to assess what will remain from the alleged British culture or even the British society?"

Why wait?

An examination of these Isles (rolling back to examination of definable cultural existence / kingdoms / state) is a good as guide as ever to what can happen in the future.

The dotted or solid lines around peoples change & evolve but they will always exist * because of the nature of human society.

* such groupings are defined by culture, society, race, religion & shared values etc.

Never against change & evolution, its part of mankind's lifecycle.

Just against certain types of politically motivated 'change & evolution' which are more likely to prevent the likelihood of such as we go forward.

For example too many of the Left & Liberal Left, have a preference to do a pick & mix to create a bespoke society with RIGHT ON values & outlooks ** & ignore what's gone before in pursuit of their desire for people & society to behave as they should in eschewed theory rather than how they actually do in reality (amply provided by history since year dot).

** micro designed societies do not work at the macro level, but broad enablers & flexibility do & are sustainable.

Ref your other comments - unexpected but welcome - thanks

vikingar

I have to say that I agree with the comments of other viewers. I am not someone who normally writes into shows but I feel really strongly about this topic.
We are desperately in need of Doctors, Dentists and nurses and it seems that recruitment is at an all time low.
Also where are all the apprenticeships that we had for our lads and lasses in engineering, plumbing, mechanics and electricians.
The Government (the Conservatives) at the time stopped the funding. Don't you think that our youth deserve to have a purpose in life.
These immigrants come into our Country they are given houses furniture and benefits. Our young ones can't even afford to get on the first rung of the ladder as far as getting a home of their own, so, why should people from other countries get preferential treatment. This is also draining the country in monetary terms after all the British people that are working and paying national insurance and taxes should have a say as to whether we want our hard earned cash given to immigrants.

In the immigration debate doesnt it come across that in Andrew Green you have an honest,unpaid,truthful gentleman,simply doing his best to get through to MPs and "Intullectal" left wing extremists of the madness of their policies,Im sure that like people on this board they can see these policies leading to the destruction of Democratic rule and the Democratic Institutions that this Island has Inherited.If Andrew were able to stand for Parlament at the first available Bye-election,his honesty and integrity would a beacon of hope among the MPs now there claiming to democratically be representing us.

Ref Vikingar #119

"Ref your other comments - unexpected but welcome - thanks"

Maybe you are right!

I am still not convinced that your world views can fit everyone (British).

Perhaps this is why we have elections in this country?

I am hopeful that your ideas will soon make a break through and help this society sustain a smooth move towards its future.

It has been a great pleasure to learn useful things from you (I mean it).

Happy new year

Richard

On the immigration debate, it is quite clear that levels of immigration over the past 9 years have reached unsustainable levels. Over crowding, congestion and environmental degradation are only the physical effects - there are also the social, cohesion and cultural issues to be addressed. When something is unsustainable, eventually something has to give. When will our politicians wake up to this simple fact and do what is necessary?

Ref richard,post 123. I remember reading a long article in Telegraph online by a very Intelligent person which can be summed up in a few words; Immigration,were a soft touch,but theres nothing we can do about ever increasing numbers making their way here. The first reply to his article the writer actually explained to him the answer was actually very simple,it was the proven market case of supply and demand,you actually enforce the laws you make and stop employers employing illegals,you state their is no accomadation left here and none can be given,you state their is no more Taxpayers money to be handed out,with the supply cut off the demand for it would go.He then went on to try to explain to the writer about his attitude he knew he would take to his solution,as being an Intelectual he would be unable to accept anything simple,he would have to have some long,complicated solution,of which the variables would have to be endlessly pored over while nothing gets done. Doesnt this sum up whats hapening now. I can see our present politicians dismissing solutions like this out of hand,but my worry is that sooner or later unless real action is taken this country could pass from the control of elected politicians who refuse to govern into the hands of extremists like BNP.

Ref Robert, post 124. You are right, the solutions are straightforward, but currently politically unacceptable. We need to get rid of the "pull" factors as you say - that includes scrapping the 1951 Geneva Convention - it is well past its sell-by date and is inappropriate in the modern world - it needs to be replaced with something which is. That said, it won't happen and the future will belong to the fascists once social order breaks down.

This forum,if the politicians and experts on the Imigration tv programme are intrested in communicating with the viewers,and are concerned with what they thinck,could be a real means of understanding opposing views,perhaps they might read the forum and understand the concerns;I went as outpatient to Hospital,waiting room full up,put in chair in corridor with people on trolleys squezing by,it was never like this in past.Roads becoming a permanent gridlock.Trains unable to cope with capacity,and this is while everything is normal,whats going to hapen when we get a year like 1976 again when the rivers dried up and the water supply went,theres now 66 million souls on this little Island we know about,and in the words of your Home Office you havent a clue how many are here you dont know about.If the supply of food to the supermarkets were disrupted in 48 hours there would be mass panic on the streets and civil disorder,yet goverment has done nothing to effective to stop mass imigration,and even openly encouraged it.

The democracy issue is important in this debate,because you can trust the majority decision on any subject to be right,democracys have never declared war on each other for instance,so how can it be right small elite groups are carrying out their own agendas on imigration against the democratic will of the people,there is no contact now at election time even.why dont they thinck the public might be right on immigration instead of them,with their track record on their policies of Iraq,education,education,education,24 hours to save the NHS,tough on crime,foreign criminals let into the population instead of deported,and so on,you would thinck there might be a little Humility about views other than their own,and a democratic acceptance of the views of who they are in Parliament to serve.

Ref robert - post 127. On the question of democratic will - we only live in a quasi democracy - we have little or no say over particular issues such as immigration. On the topic of why the people are being ignored over immigration, I suggest you read "New Elites" by George Walden - the new political and industrial elite suffer few consequences from our burgeoning population, but benefit from cheap labour. They will only listen to vox populis when the bad consequences become so apparent they are directly affected themselves.

Ref Richard-post128.Democracy is all we have to rely on for a free and civilised society,but is it registering with politicians people are more dissilusioned with them at each election.I can thinck of only a handfull of MPs as honourable,I recognise them imediatly they speak,a good example is Tony Benn,I will listen to evry word he says with repect for him because even though I thinck much of his views are so wrong I know he sincerly belirves them,is passionate in defence of democracy,and in dispare of his colleagues constantly reminds them they should say what they mean and mean what they say.The labour party was basically patriotic,and acted in what it saw as the intrests of the population,its leadership now seems to be unacountable,deceitfull,and more intrested in whats in it for them,and they dont seem to realise or care how much it shows.The man of the people act should win an oscar,but by general consent of MPs and the public the real man of the people is Franck Field,a gunuine honourable person thats becoming rarer when their needed now more than ever.I remember when the Tory party leadership became vacant and Norman Tebbit was pressed if he would stand,he replied he would rather tend his garden and he really meant this. Ive always thought that power should be given to those who dont want it,but was their duty to take up if thrust upon them.The mother of all parliaments is in desperate need of their like now.

We are ignored over immigration as we are over many issues. Lest we be accused of racism (a real scatter-gun accusation that should ALWAYS be pointed back at the originators to prove rather than letting them lynch anyone who disagrees with them) let's make clear that all our professional/party politicians consistently fail us in many ways, the most immediately pressing being immigration, education, and law & order.

Politicians (right and left, and their apparatchiks) seem to think they can do anything they want whether immoral, illegal, or professionally improper. Witness the many instances of 'burying bad news', the precise use of language in politics to obscure using money to buy legislative power, the satisfaction of toyboys/mistresses (not physically, of course, but in this example referring to sexual favours buying political favours).

These selfishly stupid actions simply hi-light the failures of this government, and our party and local politicians. This pathetically low standard of behaviour makes its way down to the lower levels, and so on. We then see:

bullies get preferential treatment at school, but the victims suffer (because they are easy targets and so get no support, while the more difficult bullies and those who support them get no punishment);

professional criminals can cut favourable deals with the police and prosecutors, but those who innocently/unintentionally transgress the law get its full weight (because they are easy targets and present no real trouble for the police);

convicts escape but the police will put/pit their (human) rights against those of the law-abiding citizen (because the law-abiding are easy targets and get very little real protection or support in law).

These issues cannot be hidden under the over-reaching banner of racism, but are still symptomatic of the same PC approach being preferred over actually doing a job (for which a salary is paid & an index-linked pension provided - such as being a Home Office official, Immigration Officer, or Minister).

Here is a wake-up call for the so-called protectors of our democracy;
if the politicians, civil servants, police, teachers cannot fulfil their functions within society they will be replaced, and their privileges & index-linked pensions will be stripped from them (even retrospectively, and criminal charges may be pursued). This is not a threat but simply the way things will have to go to keep our society working. (So, if involved in this, keep a detailed diary on what your superiors order you to do!) These 'professional' bodies depend upon the much larger majority of the populace to up-hold a certain 'civilised' standard of behaviour, but the other side of that deal is that these 'professional' bodies have to fulfil their part of the social contract. They are now failing their part. They do not appear to have thought through ALL the consequences, thinking they will be able to keep all their benefits while returning few (if any) of the required results that society needs in order to keep functioning (not just some numbers that a government can juggle).

Ref Dereck. Post 130.Ref wake up call to politicians. Looking through these threads you might thinck MPs and the ´óÏó´«Ã½ would come to realise the real national debate is taking place outside Westminster and among normal people.Arguing over a penny off or on tax is irevalant when the real issues facing this country they have disenfranchensized themselves from by P.C. and they have now silenced the official opposition as well.As this carries on like this I fear BNP will start to look the rational party and New Labour the extremists.

I thought the article on the Celts /AngloSaxons very interesting. Can anyone give me the names of the books written on this new idea?

A measure of joined-up thinking on immigration and its environmental consequences would be helpful. Elsewhere in this blog, climate change and aviation are highlighted as important issues. Phillipe Legraine admitted that immigrants are basically long distance commuters. Facts support this view. UK immigrants from new accession countries made over 1 million flights within the EU last year, driving up carbon emissions, and negating the benefits of our ongoing renewable energy projects. If environmental issues are of greater importance than economic wellbeing, we must recognise that allowing our population to rise through immigration is undesirable.

In 2007 we celebrate the 300 anniversary of The Union.

After May Scottish elections, if Alex Salmond & the SNP force a vote which ultimately leads to split between UK & Scotland (God forbid) ...

Q. how should we relate to Scottish Immigrants?

The SNP is a cyclic one horse trick i.e. Alex Salmond (as proved by the effect of his resignation & re-emergence)

The left wing politics of Alex Salmond [1] & the socialists & republican policies of SNP [2] provide a useful internal reminder to the rest of the UK lefty republican want-2-be. *

* unworkable theoretical ideas cannot be realised & paid for by idealists & unworkable fantasy economics.

The new Scottish PR electoral system, only goes to proves the robustness & stability that first part the post provides for national stability, wellbeing & unity [3] **

** though minority, radical & extremist causes obviously PR the influence they can grab through PR

vikingar

[1]
[2]
[3]

For K White, post 132.
For the latest thinking on the matter, get the Antiquity article the programme mentioned (presumably in the latest issue) and see what is given in the bibliography. Antiquity will probably have to be ordered from a bookseller - I've never seen it in a shop for sale, and stopped subscribing to it a few years ago. Earlier books you might find useful are: Colin Renfrew, Archaeology and Language (Jonathan Cape 1987) and In Search of the Indo-Europeans by J.P. Mallory (Thames and Hudson 1989). They don't agree with each other.

In the niaeve assumption that the MPs and experts on newsnight might take any notice of a simple member of the public could I ask them to look at a globe of the world,look at the reality of the tiny land mass we are,then look at the countless millions on the rest of the globe who do not have a house,and social security system,who because of the criminal iresponsability of New Labour,will now always believe that if they can reach here legally or illegally they will have a house and income,and of course they are right,a civilsed democracy cant have people homeless and starving,and Labour has publicly stated it can see no limits to the level of Imigration.The problem is you dont need to be a MP or expert to know it is a cruel deception,the word madness is used a lot by me and exasperated people as Sir Andrew Green,it is not meant as a childish slur but if you look up its definition in the dictionary,you can only use the words that exist,and I can not find any other.

Agree that Frank Field is one of the good guys, as was Norman Tebbit. They are amongst the few who are genuinely prepared to call a spade a spade. Back on topic - common sense will have to prevail at some point. As you rightly point out, there is no limit to the demand for a better life, so either we have to cut off the flow of immigration at some point (soon) or wait until the quality of life becomes so bad as a consequence of unrestricted immigration that people stop wanting to come here. By the time that stage is reached, we are all Donald Ducked!

My wife and I are native English, born here in the 1950s. We have both worked since leaving school.

She has recently had a very serious illness, and I have been made redundant for the second time. What benefits are we entitled to? Exactly none.

We made the mistake of having some savings, and she made the further mistake of being self-employed. I now report to the jobcentre once a fortnight and jump through hoops just to get my national insurance credit. Whilst there, I see people who can barely speak English, and youngsters (who have had neither the time nor the inclination to pay their dues) claiming benefits for themselves and their dependants.

Who does this deluded government think we'll vote for in future elections? It won't be them or the gutless opposition. It will be the BNP.

And since, to judge by this forum, we're far from unique, isn't there a rather scary parallel with 1930s Germany?

Ref post 138; I can only hope that as the MPs and experts on the newsnight programme realise thers a discusiom forum on whats said,they may have an insight into the dangerous and huge gap between them and the electorate,which may be helped by having a means to express your experiences.When mass imigration begun early in the election victory of new labour,people were saying to me in whispers of how can it be that there is no goverment concern of the numbers,who they were,or criminal records,it was as though goverment was in favour of anarchy,and was done under the umbrella of some genuine assylum seekers,the people using common sense could tell that if a country was given genuine refugee status then women,children,etc,would be first in the queue,another thing that the population has noticed is how homeless and the rise in bed and breakfast endured by the people here because of lack of resources does not apply to anyone arriving from outside,could the MP tell us of a single case since New labour came to power where a single thing has been denied because of lack of resources,and this is against the daily backdrop of being told they do not have the resources for care of the elderly,hospitals,education,the armed forces and so on.It is because of the population being driven into the arms of the BNP that it is essential these issues are discussed

Ref Post 92; The point you make that the MP and experts were only discusing migration from Europe which is just a sideshow to the imigration taking place from the four corners of the world to here,also touches on an important aspect of this which MPs wont face up to or discuss because of P.C.which is that goverment figures show 66% are Muslims,wich raises questions of social cohesion regarding basic cultaral beliefs which can not be reconciled with western concepts of democracy,liberal laws and institutions etc.

although imigrants do our "lower skilled jobs" with great skill our country is shrinking in size and something must be done to either stop them from coming in or force them all out

i say them in a non-racial matter

Is it really worth training to be a plumber and spending a lot of time and money to complete the courses but cant follow up the nvq side of the training or get the practical work expirence that is needed for assessment, i have come to a point on weather it is worth carying on with my training ?