大象传媒

No, Mr Paxman correctly posed questions to Dr. Alyusuf as if she, as the director of the school, was personally responsible for the teaching materials used at her school. She is.

If books referring to Muslims with such offensive language were available and offered to state schools, they would rightly be rejected immediately without the need for any debate. The publishers' motives for promoting such offensive ideas to schoolchildren would be questioned too.

Books insulting other people on the basis of their religion, deliberately promoting sectarianism and hatred, have no place in any school.

Dr. Alyusuf's defence, that the passages were taken out of context and that other chapters were acceptable learning materials, was simply evading the issue.

The school should publicly state that it was wrong to use such books, and withdraw them immediately.

The bigger question is why didn't Ofsted identify such fundamental problems when inspecting the school.

Dr Alyusuf`s defence seemed to rely upon those two old chestnuts of
A)It was a mistranslation and
B)remarks taken out of context

Why is it that Arabic seems to be unique as a language and is incapable of being translated into other languages with out losing its meaning? Also what other context is there for calling Jews moneys and Christians Pigs i would be interested to know?

The school has been clearly caught out peddling its racist and facist filth and the sooner the Government shuts down schools of this type the better.

I often find Mr Paxman rude but last night he out did himself! I usually find it amusing, after all guests should know of his reputation, but I found his treatment of Dr. Alyusuf disgraceful! He showed a complete lack of respect and in fact seemed to take pleasure in showing her contempt - is this really becomming of an 'unbiased' 大象传媒 news presenter? For the record I'm a 43 year old white scotsman and a student of the sciences with the O.U., a regular viewer and have no affiliations with any religious organisations whatsoever. My lack of respect for Mr Paxman has reached new depths.
yours in disgust,
Dave Moore

"She only heads the Fahd Academy and cannot be held accountable for each and every text written by others."

The Director of the school was given the opportunity to condemn books used in her school which describe Christians and Jews as pigs and monkeys. She was asked if she would be withdrawing them. She does not intend to do so. She is accountable for their use in her school.

Were the head of a Catholic school, for example, to be exposed on Newsnight as supporting the use of books which described Moslems in such offensive terms I imagine we would all be condemning her, rather than pointing out that she did not actually write the books.

Dr.Alyusuf chooses to have these offensive materials in her school. She accused the 大象传媒 of using a false translation and was offered the chance to give the "correct" version. Surprisingly she was unable to correct their mistakes.

I wonder if the police will be investigating this dissemination of racial hatred with their usual zeal?

Mark Urban displayed absolute and clearly gleeful bigotry in his supposed 鈥榚xpert鈥� overview of the footage from the US A10's. Whilst the vehicles' and aircrafts' positions were clear he very quickly drew up assumptions on his computer game about where he supposed the US planes were thinking they were, enjoying this privilege as if he were reporting actual fact. He described the pilots as 'confused' and, insultingly, 'part-timers from Idaho, with no combat experience'. Well how many fliers, at that time had live combat experience? When did Urban last fly an A10 in combat conditions? Would he describe the TA (his old regiment!) as part-timers in such deprecating terms? All the time on the 大象传媒 there is absolute contempt for US forces. There were some very lucid communications on this footage and some careful querying. No attempt is made to consider combat conditions from the calm comfort and luxury of a studio. A tragedy though this event was, some consideration needs to be given towards the stresses and strains of war 鈥榠n the moment鈥�.

Newsnight, rather than taking up a new found role of the champion of the gutter press should spend some time on finding who leaked this to the Sun, that well known bastion of upright journalism! Whether justified or not, the footage was still classified and whoever released it should be brought to account and prosecuted. And the Sun should be obliged to disclose its source (although doubtless, the Sun will hide behind the usual crocodile tears and a claim to be supporting the good of mankind). It鈥檚 a close run thing between John Snow on CH4 News and articles like this on tonight鈥檚 Newsnight as to who can show the most biased and unprofessional reporting. Disgraceful.

Jeremy Paxman's interview with the headmistress of the King Fahd Academy was the most unsavoury spectacle I can ever remember witnessing on Newsnight. Firstly, the programme went snooping round the contents of a school library, going on hearsay obtained via a disgruntled ex-employee. No one seemed certain that the book was even used, but it was on the premises, no less. I should think that very few school libraries in the land would be entirely free of contents that might not stand up well to close scrutiny. Religions tend at some point to say that non-adherents are likely to meet with (and indeed deserve) punishment: one thinks of Catholicism, of Judaism, of extreme forms of the Presbyterianism in which I was raised. Representatives of any one of these faiths, if hauled into the Newsnight studio for a dressing down, would be likely to say what Dr Alyusuf tried to say: yes, these views are present in the religion, no, we cannot repudiate them, *but we do not teach them*. She also tried to say that the expressions which Paxman found so offensive were part of a narrative story (cf. the Pope a few months ago). She was not allowed either of these lines of defence. Making not the slightest pretence of impartiality, Paxman, who I had fondly imagined was there at least partly on my behalf to put searching questions to *both* sides of the argument, lined himself up with the representative of the Jewish Labour Movement and vied with her in hounding this woman into silence. Why not just tip the contents of the library on to the pavement and burn them on the spot? Why not all libraries while we're about it? Or did Newsnight just feel like a spot of Arab-bashing in particular? I won't soon forget what this programme, which I had so much admired in the past, did to fan the flames of hatred between religions.

I was alarmed to see the hateful, anti-Muslim propoganda unleashed on Tuesday's Newsnight. It was more reminiscent of a party political broadcast by the BNP, rather than the balanced, objective journalism expected of the 大象传媒.

The program claimed to have evidence, contained in text books used by the school, of the teaching of religious hatred against Jews and Christians.

There were two main points of contention that were used as the basis to malign the school and the Saudi Ministry of Education, that published the books.

The first, as the school's director correctly pointed out, was the misinterpreted verse from the Quran that Newsnight claimed taught Muslims to regard Jews and Christians as monkeys and pigs. Anyone who objectively reads this verse from surah Al Maidah, (surah 5, verse 60), along with its preceding verses will realise that it contains the story of a group of people who were turned into monkeys and pigs by God as a punishment for disobeying him. It does not imply that Jews and Christians are to be regarded as such.

The second was the theological concept that on those who accept Islam will be granted paradise. This, it should be pointed out is a belief similar to that held by Jews and Christians, in that only their followers will enter paradise.

The behaviour of host Jeremy Paxman and the MP Louise Ellman toward the school's director bordered on bullying. They were not willing to accept any of the explanations offered by the director and in the case of Ellman, was interested only in bellowing out her anti-Saudi, 'Wahabi' rhetoric.

It was extremely worrying to see two supposedly educated and upstanding personalities displaying such a degree of ignorance and hatred towards Islam.

I was appalled by the treatment of Dr. Alyusuf last night by both Jeremy Paxman and Louise Ellman MP. Both were aggressive and demonstrated a limited understand of Islamic scripture.

I felt that Louise Ellman MP had a specific agenda which was not helped by her clear intellectual dishonesty and shallow approach to the subject matter. Paxman, of course, was looking for another headline, which sadly has become the trend of the 大象传媒.

What was the real objection to the faith school? Surely not the exclusivity claimed for Islam ("Other religions are worthless"), but rather the likening of Christians and Jews to pigs and monkeys respectively.

In state schools, the various religions may well be taught on an equal footing, but this, surely, is the outlook of an essentially secular/humanist system which views all religions as equally worth-while/-less.

It may also be the view of many of our clergy (those who seem to think dressing in cassocks and mitres and sporting liberal-humanist opinions is the essence of Religion/Christianity) that all religions lead to "God" (whatever they mean by that), but it's certainly not the view of "real" Christians.

For "real" Christians, the words of Christ, such as "I am the way, the truth and the light; no one comes to the father but by me", give Christianity its own claim to exclusivity: in their view other religions are worthless as a means of reaching God. (Some may say that other religions have some value in that they teach moral values, respect for other people and so on, but others, hard-liners, would go so far as to call other religions satanic inventions designed to lead people from the path of truth.) For these people, Muslims would give no offence by proclaiming their faith as the "only way, all others being worthless", for it's the equivalent of Christianity's own message, and it would demonstrate those Muslims are taking their faith seriously. What the Christians would say is "Let's examine the claims to exclusivity to see which one can stand the test!"

For Richard Watson to make an issue of the "all other religions are worthless" claim (without examining in detail what is is they're worthless for) may well coincide with a secularist position (which may, indeed, also be spouted by our clergy), but it's certainly not a Christian one.

The "pigs" and "monkeys", however, is a different matter.

Louise Ellman didn't need to be from the same constituency, or Committee, or be an expert in Arabic scripture in order to make perfect sense. Paxman likewise.

The point most repeated by Dr. Alysuf was that not all of the textbook in question was actively taught to the students, and that a number of chapters were of high relevance to the curriculum.

This raises a key question: Why then, couldn't the sections that mentioned Jews as 'monkeys', Christians as 'pigs' and non-believers as doomed to 'hellfire' simply be removed from the textbooks - or, the essential chapters photocopied and the rest of the texts removed from the school?

What if I were to publish a textbook about any given subject and slip in a few references to Islam being a waste of time and a worthless religion? Would that be OK because - for the most part - the book is factually accurate, and teachers would probably not mention the Islam bits?

I think not.

Thank goodness Mr Paxman took the school and the head to task.
Why is it OK to have such disgusting material in any school, whether you use a few passages from it or not? I am sure if another school used "Mein Kampf" but explained that they only used a few passages, there would be a different debate, quite rightly so of course. All this and the 大象传媒 have this story well down their list. Actual documentation of racist propoganda used in one (or maybe) many schools in the UK and perhaps world wide? Only a few people actually debating this yet? It just shows what is really going on in our ever increasingly un-balanced country.
This "text" book says, Christians are "Pigs", Jews are "Monkeys" and if you don't follow Islam you will endure "Hellfire"... NICE. What a disgrace. The cure for intolerance is not intolerance.

An excellent interview by Mr Paxman. He did a very good job of uncovering the reality of some unacceptable teachings in Islamic schools.

It is about time some of the public woke up to the reality of what we are facing in the UK instead of tolerating the intolerable!

3rd time of trying!

The text is taken from the Koran, and it is what is being recited every day of the year and will continue to be so!
That is why she skirted around the issue, because in Islam it is not an Issue, it is a fact!
And for her to condemn it, would be against Islam and the Ummah.

J. Paxman didn't even get close to exposing what could have been!

Where is a Robin Day?

Re, Dr alyusuf and the discussion on Newsnight, regarding racist material in the Muslim School. This woman typifies the attitude of many Muslims in this Country. They are quick to accuse the indigenous population in this Country, regarding prejudice's or racism when they feel they are the victims, and they are now very good at this. But they continue unopposed by the Government, to preach their own propaganda and blatant racism against Jews and Christians to their own people, including Muslim school children!
This is partly to do with the 'politically correct brigade,'and the Authorities reluctance to challenge these people for fear of being racist themselves, or losing their vote. It's time we stopped kidding ourselves and addressed the problems and the damage that these people are doing to our Society.

Those who have followed such issues since 9-11 will not be at all surprised by the presence of intolerant material in Muslim schools. A Freedom House report last year found such material, supplied free and endorsed by the Saudi Government, in most Muslim institutions in the USA. Such material, and worse, is rife in the Middle East where Mein Kampf is a bestseller. It is standard fare in Saudi Arabia and Palesine, as a quick scan of MEMRI or Palestine Media Watch will attest. That an intelligent and well educated woman should defend such intolerance warranted the toughest Paxman treatment.

大象传媒 coverage of such poisonous teaching and the rabid intolerance that permeates Arab culture has been lamentable, as documented by Tom Gross (and others) on his blog. John Ware is a rare exception.

Saudi support of Muslim institutions, teaching materials and its supply of staff should be completely blocked until it allows reciprocal arrangements on its own soil.

Whatever problems were suffered by Dr.Alyusuf were largely of her own making. She was given a rough ride by Jeremy Paxman, but the main problem was she shifted her ground during the course of the interview.

I was left wondering - what were the precise words in the textbooks and how precisely do they relate to the Koran. Dr. Alyusuf claimed that there was nothing racist or pejorative in the material in the textbook or in the Koran and that the problems identified so far were only a matter of interpretation of parts of the text. Well, if so, she should have maintained this position throughout. But she did not.

Instead she gave different accounts of the status of the textbook: At first , it was not now in use. Then she said - a different syllabus was now being implemented. Then later, she stated that the textbook had useful chapters and so would not be withdrawn.

This gave the impression of a slippery and not wholly convincing defence of something nasty. If there was nothing pejorative in the textbook then why give the impression that parts of it were not to be used?

The 大象传媒 should commission a panel of professional scholars including experts in Arabic and Islam to examine the textbooks and any others the School is using and if the School has nothing to hide, it would co-operate. Perhaps the Saudi publishers could also be asked to co-operate.

Newsnight should publish the textbook on the web with an agreed translation. And maybe this incident should allow us to gain a better understanding of what the Koranic and other Islamic texts actually do say about other faiths. Then we will know what 鈥減igs and monkeys鈥� really refers to.

In the meantime, Ofsted should investigate.

J.P gave Dr. Alyusuf a pretty easy ride considering she would not repudiate the 鈥減igs and monkeys鈥� slur. I would have liked to see J.P. force this woman to give a straight answer, as he sometimes does with Conservative politicians (remember J.P. repeating a question to Michael Howard about 20 times). Dr Alyusuf can indeed be held responsible for teaching materials used by her school, who else should bear responsibility? You can dress up a bigot as a modern western career woman but a bigot you remain. The sentiments expressed in these Islamic textbooks are standard fare in Saudi Arabia. I am sure that Dr. Alyusuf wonders what all the fuss is about.

The origins and context of the 鈥渁pes and monkeys鈥� slur (or narrative) hardly matters. The point is that children in the Middle East, and now possibly the UK, are taught to believe and repeat this bile. In Saudi Arabia this slur is repeated on children鈥檚 programs (by the kids) and in scholarly discussions. It is part and parcel of the general dehumanisation of the 鈥渋nfidel鈥� by followers of the Wahhabi creed. This is not solely a feature of Wahhabism. Lebanese TV RECENTLY produced a drama based on the Soviet Russian anti-Jewish slander 鈥淭he Protocols of the Elders of Zion鈥�. This features Rabbi鈥檚 killing a Christian child to provide blood for Passover Matzos (the classic 鈥渂lood libel鈥�). No amount of clever moral equivalency can render these sentiments as anything but hateful and dehumanising.

Richard Watson's piece and the JP interview of Dr. Alyusuf reminds me of the Channel 4 (sorry to mention the competition...but it is relevant) Dispatches doc "Undercover Mosque" where Saudi trained clerics were making speeches laced with the worst kind of hate and bile and when asked later, denying they had ever said it.

Dr Alyusuf came across as evasive. JP was right to pin her down..and folks wondering why he had to be so "rude" are just being naive.

This whole thing has been blown out of proportion but that, I guess, is what makes it newsworthy for Newsnight. It also seems there were some problems with Dr. Aluyusuf鈥檚 argumentation rendering her ill-equipped to handle Paxman鈥檚 antagonistic questioning style.

One thing needs to be emphasized, the quoted verse form the Quran does NOT say 鈥楯ews are this and Christians are that鈥�. What it does say, following the interpretation by Ibn Abbas, is that those Jews who broke the Sabbath and those Christians who betrayed Jesus were respectively turned into monkeys and pigs. End of story. It was a Quranic story of particular groups at particular times. The verse does not say anything about all Jews and all Christians being monkeys or pigs.

Aside from mentioning that this text was taken out of context, Dr. Alysuf didn鈥檛 really explain it. Had she done so, she would have been able to justify her decision not to exclude this book from the curriculum. Instead, she unwittingly said that not all parts of the textbook are taught, which everyone misinterpreted as an admission that the mentioned quotes did actually refer to Jews and Christians in a derogatory way.

Regarding categorizing other religions as 鈥渨orthless鈥�, this is an exaggerated translation of the Arabic word 鈥榖aatil鈥� which is more closely translated as 鈥榝alse鈥�. Is it really that strange for any religion to describe other religions as false? Does any other religion describe Islam as a 鈥榗orrect鈥� religion? Probably not, but Islam, more than any other religion, recognizes the legitimacy of Judaism and Christianity in their initial form.

Finally, if you remove heaven and hell (retribution) from the equation, Judaism, Christianity and Islam would pretty much fall apart as faiths. So I鈥檓 not really sure where this sudden sensitivity to hell-fire is coming from. Where in the Bible or the Torah does it say that people of other faiths go to heaven?

Having said all that, I think there is an argument to be made that textbooks for young Muslims need to be more explicit about such topics so as to avoid potentially racist misinterpretations of such texts. That would be a legitimate reason to revise these textbooks and NOT, as it happened now, to avoid further unjustified reactionary discrimination from people who watched Newsnight.

two main points were raised by paxman:

1) first the reference to Christians/jews as pigs/monkeys.

2) The claim that only muslims will go to paradise

The verse in the quran can be found in chapter 2:65. The verse talks about a group of jews who didn鈥檛 observe the Sabbath and were punished by god. The important thing to note here are the opening words to the verse. And indeed you (i.e. jews) knew those who transgressed concerning the Sabbath..鈥�. So the point here is that the story was known to the jews in Arabia of the time, and I suspect the story can also be found in Torah and more importantly the verse can never be interpreted as meaning jews/Christians in general.

In fact, the quran says: 鈥極 mankind, we created you from a single soul (Adam)鈥︹��

Unfortunately, because of a total lack of basic Islamic knowledge the doc was unable reply. The best she could muster was 鈥榦ut of context鈥�. I suggest she never undertakes any sort of interview again.

Second point 鈥� about non muslims going to hell. In other words why does islam claim to be the one and only truth?

Well, islam is not unique in its claim here so no apology is due here. Every religion claims this for itself. Im sure you have heard the following line before 鈥業 am the way the light, no one comes to the father except through me鈥�.

this of course doesnt mean people are not given rights and respected etc

This wasn鈥檛 even a point paxman should have picked up on, just goes to show how silly he can be.

I am amazed, truly amazed.

A professional educationalist admits on television that the school she works at has text books that openly promote hatred of other religous groups and plainly refuses to disassociate with such noxious and hateful views.

And the response of some posters here is that it is Jeremy Paxman who is at fault for displaying "hatred for Islam." Do you think critics of the BNP are guilty of hatred of the British?

What utter moral distortion. That school is teaching hatred. If you choose to excuse, they you are colluding with it.

understanding of what the Koranic and other Islamic texts actually do say about other faiths. Then we will know what 鈥減igs and monkeys鈥� really refers to."

Very happy to oblige - but what about the other scriptures? The same examination?

I understand the Talmud teaches: "the best among Gentiles should be slain."

And similar other lines that consider us the "Goyim" as sub-human!

Yet, there seems to be a sustained anti-Muslim media campaign in the UK spearheaded by a Zionist 'media cabal' reminiscent of the US, hell-bent on creating as much 'bad-blood' as possible between the Christian West and the Muslim world.

Thus I concur with Hilary Gaskin - 7:

"..I won't soon forget what this programme, which I had so much admired in the past, did to fan the flames of hatred between religions."

In the recent past, both Newsnight and Panorama programmes by journalists like Richard Watson, Daniel Sandford, John Ware, Gavin Esler, Jane Corbin etc., peddle nothing but witch-hunting of Muslims and Islam.

As for how this programme was conducted, I share my disgust with some of the writers here on Mr. Paxman's behaviour. He did not even allow Dr. Al Yusuf to answer his questions but rather imposed his own perception.

The context of the verse in question is well known. The verse as concisely explained by Abdullah Ansari(8) Frank C (23), Nav (24)above, refers to turning those who disbelieve or disobey the creator of the world and all that exists into "apes" and "swine" but does not specifically refer to Jews or Christians.

Here is a translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali or Marmaduke Pickthall on the same link. The Surah (chapter)5, of the Quran, is known as Al Maidah (The Table or The Table Spread):

Infact, the Quran holds in high esteem both the Jews and Christians fondly described as "The people of the book" whom Muslims should respect.

Moreover, Jesus is revered as a prophet of God whom Muslims expect to come back towards the 'end times' and re-affirm Islam. Indeed, the narrative of the miraculous birth of Mary is well told in suratul Mariam in the Quran (the chapter known as Mary) better than in the Bible.

I urge the Christian West

I strongly believe such programmes are not objective at all and have been made with 'darker' intention in mind.

Fraser Michaelson - 19;

"..And maybe this incident should allow us to gain a better understanding of what the Koranic and other Islamic texts actually do say about other faiths. Then we will know what 鈥減igs and monkeys鈥� really refers to."

Very happy to oblige - but what about the other scriptures? The same examination?

I understand the Talmud teaches: "the best among Gentiles should be slain."

And similar other lines that consider us the "Goyim" as sub-human!

Yet, there seems to be a sustained anti-Muslim media campaign in the UK spearheaded by a Zionist 'media cabal' reminiscent of the US, hell-bent on creating as much 'bad-blood' as possible between the Christian West and the Muslim world.

Thus I concur with Hilary Gaskin - 7:

"..I won't soon forget what this programme, which I had so much admired in the past, did to fan the flames of hatred between religions."

In the recent past, both Newsnight and Panorama programmes by journalists like Richard Watson, Daniel Sandford, John Ware, Gavin Esler, Jane Corbin etc., peddle nothing but witch-hunting of Muslims and Islam.

As for how this programme was conducted, I share my disgust with some of the writers here on Mr. Paxman's behaviour. He did not even allow Dr. Al Yusuf to answer his questions but rather imposed his own perception.

The context of the verse in question is well known. The verse as concisely explained by Abdullah Ansari(8) Frank C (23), Nav (24)above, refers to turning those who disbelieve or disobey the creator of the world and all that exists into "apes" and "swine" but does not specifically refer to Jews or Christians.

Here is a translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali or Marmaduke Pickthall on the same link. The Surah (chapter)5, of the Quran, is known as Al Maidah (The Table or The Table Spread):

Infact, the Quran holds in high esteem both the Jews and Christians fondly described as "The people of the book" whom Muslims should respect.

Moreover, Jesus is revered as a prophet of God whom Muslims expect to come back towards the 'end times' and re-affirm Islam. Indeed, the narrative of the miraculous birth of Mary is well told in suratul Mariam in the Quran (the chapter known as Mary) better than in the Bible.

I urge the Christian West - some clever people already have - to be aware of those who wish to cultivate hate between us and wish to divide us.

I strongly believe such programmes are not objective at all and have been made with 'darker' intentions in mind.

Fraser Michaelson - 19;

"..And maybe this incident should allow us to gain a better understanding of what the Koranic and other Islamic texts actually do say about other faiths. Then we will know what 鈥減igs and monkeys鈥� really refers to."

Very happy to oblige - but what about the other scriptures? The same examination?

I understand the Talmud teaches: "the best among Gentiles should be slain."

And similar other lines that consider us the "Goyim" as sub-human!

Yet, there seems to be a sustained anti-Muslim media campaign in the UK spearheaded by a Zionist 'media cabal' reminiscent of the US, hell-bent on creating as much 'bad-blood' as possible between the Christian West and the Muslim world.

Thus I concur with Hilary Gaskin - 7:

"..I won't soon forget what this programme, which I had so much admired in the past, did to fan the flames of hatred between religions."

In the recent past, both Newsnight and Panorama programmes by journalists like Richard Watson, Daniel Sandford, John Ware, Gavin Esler, Jane Corbin etc., peddle nothing but witch-hunting of Muslims and Islam.

As for how this programme was conducted, I share my disgust with some of the writers here on Mr. Paxman's behaviour. He did not even allow Dr. Al Yusuf to answer his questions but rather imposed his own perception.

The context of the verse in question is well known. The verse as concisely explained by Abdullah Ansari(8) Frank C (23), Nav (24)above, refers to turning those who disbelieve or disobey the creator of the world and all that exists into "apes" and "swine" but does not specifically refer to Jews or Christians.

Here is a translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali or Marmaduke Pickthall on the same link. The Surah (chapter)5, of the Quran, is known as Al Maidah (The Table or The Table Spread):

Infact, the Quran holds in high esteem both the Jews and Christians fondly described as "The people of the book" whom Muslims should respect.

Moreover, Jesus is revered as a prophet of God whom Muslims expect to come back towards the 'end times' and re-affirm Islam. Indeed, the narrative of the miraculous birth of Mary is well told in suratul Mariam in the Quran (the chapter known as Mary) better than in the Bible.

I urge the Christian West - some clever people already have - to be aware of those who wish to cultivate hate between us and wish to divide us.

I strongly believe such programmes are not objective at all and have been made with 'darker' intentions in mind.

If the number of Academies currently predicted (200ish) becomes a reality, it will inevitably become easier for them to teach a curriculum which others might find problematic. Ofsted cannot possibly police every school, and some of the discriminatory practices such schools use are insidious and impossible to legislate against. Could a highly respected openly gay teacher in a stable 20 year relationship apply for a post at a 'Christian' Academy? Of course. Would they get it? Hell would freeze over first. Are such schools inherently afforded state protection to run their own agendas? Yes.

Mr Ibrahim makes a number of points, which sound reasonable enough - until you examine the detail and the context. The problem with them is that as there is no final arbiter on what Islam says, we are left with texts that cannot be challenged, a multitude of conflicting opinions, a long and continuing history of brutal conquest and a contemporary violent and nihilistic fringe. The climate in which violence is considered acceptable by a large minority of Muslims and the examples of intolerant and dysfunctional governance in states run by Muslims, has led to alarm in countries where Muslims are a growing and assertive minority.

An example of the confusion over just one Koranic verse (2:256):

You cannot compare intolerant verses in the holy texts of the three Abrahamic religions because only Islam treats its texts as the unchallengable and immutable Word of God, while others now consider them as cultural atavisms. Put together, this has led to a very close scrutiny of what Muslims are taught and believe, and a disappointing and disturbing responses from Muslim spokesmen. Questions about what Jihad means, how it is justified and what methods are permissible are answered in bloodcurdling terms by a large body of extremists, and with evasions and equivocations by "moderates". The behaviour of Mohammad, described in Islam's holy texts as taking child brides, raiding unarmed caravans (even in holy months), executing prisoners and taking slaves is nontheless considered almost universally as a life example for all Muslims. When such issues are raised, Muslims go into cognitive dissonance and hissy fits, getting "offended" that anyone dares to criticise the founder of Islam and completely ignoring a deep problem at the heart of their faith.

So, Mr Ibrahim, you will excuse me if I (and I suspect most non-Muslims) am not at all comforted by your theological semantics. We see rampant injustice to non-Muslims in Muslim states, bile and vitriol from Muslim religious leaders, energetic pursuance of intolerant views in our midst by a foreign power, a complete lack of reciprocity to our own tolerance by the Muslim world, and an utter lack of restraint in pursuing their various and contradictory goals. When you speak of "those who wish to cultivate hate between us and wish to divide us", you should look first to your own. Moat and Beam. As for your belief that Jesus will return at the "end times", Christians would be horrified to learn how Muslims believe He would behave.

If you want to be respected in the West, then theological platitudes (which are usually just contested opinions) are not enough. Muslim behaviour is causing alarm around the world - complacency and equivocation will do nothing to allay it. Respect, trust and protection from offence are not rights.

A rather uninspired debate on size zero.Anyone who is really interested in the cultural pressure on women to slim should read Naomi Wolf's "The beauty myth", although the real garlands for research on this much- debated topic must go to Suzie Orbach for her classic "Fat is a feminist issue"

The producer's comments on the Paxman interview call for some comment in their turn. 'Despite being invited ... Dr Alyusuf refused': she wasn't invited, she was barked at and hounded. 'She refused to give any alternative meaning': she did try, but wasn't given a proper chance. 'Nor would she commit to removing the offending [sic] books': why should she? Do we now have trial and conviction by television? 'The head of a school that had admitted [sic] using blatantly [sic] racist textbooks': this was a programme that had decided the school was guilty before the interview began. Having now seen something of the producer's tendentious vocabulary, I am less surprised than I was by the lynch-mob atmosphere which I witnessed in the interview on Tuesday night.

The producer's comments on the Paxman interview call for some comment in their turn. 'Despite being invited ... Dr Alyusuf refused': she wasn't invited, she was barked at and hounded. 'She refused to give any alternative meaning': she did try, but wasn't given a proper chance. 'Nor would she commit to removing the offending [sic] books': why should she? Do we now have trial and conviction by television? 'The head of a school that had admitted [sic] using blatantly [sic] racist textbooks': this was a programme that had decided the school was guilty of a crime before the interview began. Having now seen something of the producer's tendentious vocabulary, I am less surprised than I was by the lynch-mob atmosphere which I witnessed in the interview on Tuesday night.

There is not a lot in Ancient, Modern or Current history to support the words that Islam is a respector of other faiths, nor it being described as a religion of peace.
I wonder why I am not convinced:-

the bible has 2 parts:

1) the old testament, the jewish part of the christian bible, the old convenant with god.

2) the new testament or the new convenant with the universal christian church.
there no more jew or gentile, male or female, every single human being is equal in the eyes of god, regardless of sex, status, ethnicity or religion.
woman is no more impure than man. observance of purity laws and rules regarding foods while very uselful in some cases, is not a demonstration of godliness and certainly not a sign of loving concern for the whole of human kind.
a very tall order indeed.

Arabic classes are held all over UK. Many of them are directly or indirectly funded by the City Councils and other government organisations. I believe a degree of Saudi funding goes into many of these classes. I know books from Saudi Arabia were used in some of these classes. I don't know if they still are. Is the Education Department checking the content of the teaching in these classes? Is there a risk that the minds of children all over the UK are being systematically poisoned?

The problem is religion itself and this insane notion that each of them has that "their" god (whatever that is) is the one true god, a pox on all of your religions and teachings. For "faith" read superstition and ignorance.

Ms. Alyusuf was lost for words. It is hard to defend the indefensible. Paxman was probing, as he should be, and was clearly irritated by her prevarication, as he is with all those he interviews who waffle and squirm.
Frankly, if the Torah says the Goyim are worthless and the Bible says only Jesus can save us, while the Koran thinks of other faiths as pigs and monkeys, then...a plague on all their bigoted nonsense.
If state schools were better there would be no rush to "faith" schools.

Ian Almond wrote: "Why is it that Arabic seems to be unique as a language and is incapable of being translated into other languages with out losing its meaning?"

No, it is not unique, all languages pose a challenge to the professional translator but the difficulties are compounded when the source/targets are from different linguistic branches (Indo-European and Semitic in this case) and increasingly so when you are translating from a classical register into a modern one. All the major British translators have accepted that they find it impossible to accurately convey the meaning of the Quran in English, perhaps the most famous of which, Arthur Arberry, writing that his own (excellent) version could only be a "faulty echo of the original". I assume Mr Almond knows very little about the technicalities of translation...

As for the interview, I am usually a great admirer of Paxman, but he wasn't "robust" (as reflexively claimed by the producer), he was rude, cutting off the speaker, aggresively interrogating her whilst allowing Louise Ellman almost a free rein. I am afraid that I can only assume this was due to some partisan atavism. Clearly, I hope I'm wrong.

#44 Mr Adil Khan,

Shakespeare can only be properly read in English as the Koran can only be properly read in Arabic. You don鈥檛 have to be an Arabic scholar to appreciate that nuances may be lost in translation. We are not talking about nuances here. Most people can appreciate the implications of teaching children a Koranic story about Christians and Jews being transformed into pigs and monkeys. Anyone who has watched output from the Middle Eastern media (see MEMRI) knows that the 鈥減igs and monkeys鈥� slur is common currency in the Middle East and whatever the original narrative is supposed to mean, it is commonly used as a means of dehumanising the "unbeliever". On the channel 4 program 鈥淯ndercover Mosque鈥� an imam was videoed at the Green Lane mosque in Birmingham making snorting noises as a joke when referring to Jews. When dealing with this class of bigotry 鈥減artisan atavism鈥� is wholly commendable. Bigotry needs to be exposed to the light of day, not nuanced out of view with a smokescreen of prevarication.

Visit this MEMRI link for some context regarding the "apes and pigs" narrative.

The interview of Dr Alyusuf raises two distinct issues.
First, there is disagreement about what exactly is contained in some books found in the library of a school in London, and about whether, and if so, how,
these books were used in instruction. I am not myself
a Muslim, but, for what it is worth, I formed the view at the end of the programme that the material in question was no more offensive than the sort of thing monotheistic religions have said about non-believers
for a very long time. At the moment, mostly as a direct result of various policies implemented by New Labour, it has become politically acceptable to target
Muslims for holding these views, and Newsnight, to its shame, seems to have been unable to stand against this current. The second issue, however, concerns
the way in which Dr Alyusuf was treated. She was bullied in a most disgraceful way by Jeremy Paxman, who seemed already to have made up his mind that she was guilty of something. His behaviour was both humanly reprehensible and incompatible with the goal of informing the public on an issue that might be of interest to us. What Paxman did cannot be described as 'robust questioning' in any relevant sense because his constant, hectoring interruptions served only to prevent Dr Alyusuf from responding to his questions. After this disappointing lapse, I hope Newsnight will return to its usual high standards of impartiality and sober, careful analysis.

Alan C - 46:

The problem is that think-tanks like MEMRI are not a non-partisan organisation(s) despite the fact that they appear to be to most westerners.

That are a disguise of Zionist lobby groups that are cleverly set-up to do academic campaign against Muslims and Arabs in general.

Re Comment #48

MEMRI is not a think tank, Mr Ibrahim, as I suspect you know full well, and its publications stand on their own merit. It posts clips from Arab TV stations (often of Imams ranting during Friday prayers, often on Government sponsored stations) with the original Arabic soundtrack and English subtitles. No amount of excuses about "errors in translation" or "taken out of context" can explain away the blatant and unrepentant intolerance, lies, racism and hatred of these leaders. They are condemned from their own mouths. You would think they had worked out by now what a bad image they give Arab culture.

I see the tired old deflection of the "Jewish Lobby" being wheeled out again. You really will have to do better than that.

#48 Mahmud Ibrahim

MEMRI translate all types of Arabic media and make them available in several languages. Their translations are unimpeachable. For the most part the entire content of MEMRI consists of direct translations of television, radio, newspapers, speeches websites and sermons with very little comment. When MEMRI does comment it is done is a very dry and factual manner to provide context. MEMRI doesn鈥檛 do editorialising or opinion pieces (no Guardian-style rants). MEMRI has sections that focus on the Jihad and anti-Zionism but it also covers many other topics such as economics (e.g. 鈥淚slamic Banking 鈥� A Fast-Growing Industry鈥�).

I have been reading MEMRI for about 7 years and it provides an absolutely invaluable insight into the Arab world that can鈥檛 be found in any other news service.

The last time I heard the Zionist slur against MEMRI was when Ken Livingstone was defending Yusuf al-Qaradawi. When presented with some very unsavoury facts about al-Qaradawi, some of them gleaned from MEMRI translations, Livingstone attacked MEMRI as being run by Mossad agents. He even likened the verbatim MEMRI translations of al-Qaradawi鈥檚 (bizarre and fairly disgusting) speeches to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Livingstone couldn鈥檛 challenge the translations; he could only denigrate the source, much as Mr. Ibrahim does in his post.

I love the way the Islamophobia card is being used: someone who is in a position of responsibility (i.e Dr Alyusuf) should be accountable. Paxman didn't push her enough (he was sadly a shadow of his former self - the interviewer that put Michael Howard under scrutiny).

Regarding the translation: you can't have it both ways. if it's out of context then why teach it "out of context" and why have all those bigoted questions as discussion points for teachers?

The text is wholly unacceptable and the more I hear of people trying to defend it the more it's obvious that the "victim" card is being played by those advocating its inclusion.

With all the furore, are we forgetting a most important issue? OFSTED inspected this school recently and it passed! This is a school which I've heard is in huge debt, has very few books, and those there are, are pushed on them by the Saudi Education Ministry. Furthermore Saudi teachers teach less periods than non-Saudi which doesn't make for a team spirit. Teachers working there aren't in the national pension scheme either. Of course it'll pass, if the inspectors don't want to make waves and the kids are obviously going to be docile. But now, maybe a reinspection, with Arabic specialists on the team, is called for. Are we tax payers contributing to the funding of this place?

Richard 49 - wrote:

"It posts clips from Arab TV stations (often of Imams ranting during Friday prayers, often on Government sponsored stations) with the original Arabic soundtrack and English subtitle."

Alan C- 50 wrote:

"MEMRI translate all types of Arabic media and make them available in several languages. Their translations are unimpeachable. For the most part the entire content of MEMRI consists of direct translations of television, radio, newspapers, speeches websites and sermons with very little comments."

I will have broadly agreed with your points but for these questions:

-Why is MEMRI so obsessed with the Arab and Muslim media only?

-Who are the officials and staff of this organisation?

-Who funds it?

Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with MEMRI providing useful information to the general public. But it seems that their intention or purpose for doing it is quite different - given the fact that most of their 'translations' is negative towards Arabs and Muslims in general.

Ofcourse, most westerners (especially in the Anglo-speaking world in the UK, US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand), don't see this things like that because you have been indoctrinated by the very same Zionist controlled media - not to mention education, films, popular culture etc. since your childhood.

As for Ken Livingstone, he is a true human being who cares deeply for the suffering of fellow humankind regardless of race, ethnicity, faith, gender, etc. If all western leaders were like him, there is no doubt in my mind that peace will reign in our world forever!

Finally, how does its work (MEMRI's) contribute to peace in the world? If any thing, it seems to be encouraging animosity and hate towards Arabs and Muslims in the world.

Richard & Alan C,

This might be of interest concerning MEMRI:

Alan C - do you speak Arabic? Because I fear your comments can only be taken seriously if you have a fluent knowledge of the language and at least some background in translation theory. Do you even know which register of Arabic the source next was written in? MSA, Classical, Colloquial (Levantine, Maghreb, Gulf, Iraqi) - these have important bearings as to how "nuanced" or otherwise the source text is. Of course if you are aware of these facts then in these circumstances will you be properly placed to determine whether there has been an accurate rendering or whether a nuance has been lost. Since I have neither seen the source or the target text, I would say I am not qualified to comment and your presentation of normative statements with a reference to MEMRI as somehow empirically validating your argument makes me think maybe you aren't either. "Conjecture" is the word that comes to mind here.

That said, if I were to be able to satsify myself that the language was racist, then the representative from the Academy's position is surely untenable and she should resign immediately. Such "set texts" have no place in the UK (or in any civilised society). But this doesn't detract from the very hostile/partisan reception she was given by Paxman - you may think such partisanship is acceptable. But I'm afraid that's not what the 大象传媒's remit is under its charter.

Alan C - do you speak Arabic? Because I fear your comments can only be taken seriously if you have a fluent knowledge of the language and at least some background in translation theory. Do you even know which register of Arabic the source next was written in? MSA, Classical, Colloquial (Levantine, Maghreb, Gulf, Iraqi) - these have important bearings as to how "nuanced" or otherwise the source text is. Of course if you are aware of these facts then in these circumstances will you be properly placed to determine whether there has been an accurate rendering or whether a nuance has been lost. Since I have neither seen the source or the target text, I would say I am not qualified to comment and your presentation of normative statements with a reference to MEMRI as somehow empirically validating your argument makes me think maybe you aren't either. "Conjecture" is the word that comes to mind here.

That said, if I were to be able to satsify myself that the language was racist, then the representative from the Academy's position is surely untenable and she should resign immediately. Such "set texts" have no place in the UK (or in any civilised society). But this doesn't detract from the very hostile/partisan reception she was given by Paxman - you may think such partisanship is acceptable. But I'm afraid that's not what the 大象传媒's remit is under its charter.

Adil Khan et al. You're all missing the point which is that the text in the book contains teaching material promoting intolerance. If you're saying: "The Jew and Christian analogy is from the Koran" then that implies the Koran is using language at odds with what needs to be taught in a modern British school curriculum.

There are many examples in religious texts that use language deemed inappropriate for teaching because it is at odds with current English law. You wouldn't expect a passage from the Bible condemning homosexuals to be included in the National Curriculum.

Likewise any bigotry that occurs in the Koran should also be excluded.

The problem is that the text has accompanying directions for teachers to promote intolerance.

No obfuscating sleight-of-hand arguments about "translation" can help you here. It's indefensible.

# 56 Adil Khan

I get your point Mr. Khan; I can鈥檛 legitimately comment on Arabic translations because the infinite nuances of the language are an insurmountable barrier to my understanding of the text. Children aren鈥檛 good at nuance either, so I think we can agree that the 鈥淛ews and Pigs鈥� parable has no place in the mosque or the school.

Incredulousness and abruptness, rather than hostility, are Jeremy Paxman鈥檚 trademarks. I find this very entertaining. Dissembling guests do raise his hackles though, and this particular guest could have dissembled for Britain. I find J.P鈥檚 treatment of dissembling guests to be extremely entertaining. I don鈥檛 think the 大象传媒 charter precludes a Paxman.

I can't believe the double standards of some of the posters here. If a Catholic school asked its pupils to "name five reprehensible characteristics of Muslims", they would be screaming their heads off.

The school should be shut down immediately, the offending books publicly burned, and Dr Alyusuf should be investigated for hate crimes by the police.

Perhaps the contributor nav in Post 24 could explain why they took great pains to explain why Jews weren't being insulted by the text in The Koran - and then proceeds to write the word Jews and Jewish in lower-case more than once, while making sure the word Christians is spelt correctly.

This form of lower-case for the word and root "Jews" is well-known as an intended insult on 大象传媒 Messageboards.

lan C in Post 54.

You wrote:-
//The last time I heard the Zionist slur against MEMRI was when Ken Livingstone was defending Yusuf al-Qaradawi. When presented with some very unsavoury facts about al-Qaradawi, some of them gleaned from MEMRI translations, Livingstone attacked MEMRI as being run by Mossad agents. He even likened the verbatim MEMRI translations of al-Qaradawi鈥檚 (bizarre and fairly disgusting) speeches to anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. Livingstone couldn鈥檛 challenge the translations; he could only denigrate the source, much as Mr. Ibrahim does in his post.//

In fact being on a Newsnight blog is very relevant.

Livingstone ignores the fact (conveniently?) that Qaradawi gave an interview on Newsnight where he stated the very things that Livingstone accusses MEMRI of mis-representing. So, the source is 大象传媒 Newsnight not MEMRI alone.

RACISM:

Gordon Bennett ... just rewatched this news segment in case I was missing something 鈥� I was not

Never seen JP so polite & restrained on such plainly a contentious issue.

Rarely does the man extend such tolerance too others when faced with similar levels of intransigence & denial by the defendant.

If Dr. Alyusuf as the schools Director is an example of an educated Sunni Muslim in the west no wonder we have race relation issues, extremism, radicalisation & terrorism within our shores.

The numerous posters above, the apologisers & appeasers et al for such racist teaching & materials being made available in a British school yet again demonstrate their questionable values.

Lets see Social & Education services launch an urgent inquiry into what materials & cirrculumns are actually been taught in British Islamic Schools (esp since King Fahad Academy is one of the better funded ones but still promote such filth under the guise of 'religious culture')

Q. what were this Islamic Schools Governors & Teacher/Parent Associations doing meantime? *

* endorsing the availability of such racist materials & teaching or unware such is happening

vikingar

Surely, after all these complaints, Paxman should be reproached in some way?

"polite and restrained"? Which TV screen were you watching?

Any clear thinking person can see the malicious content of these books, so I won't comment on that, I will, however, come to the defense of Judaism:

It is clearly stated at every level of Judaism that any non Jew who believes in G-d and follows the seven commandments that apply to them will go to heaven.

Judaism at no point claims to be the sole entry route to heaven and has no concept of hell.

Just a little note to all those who have claimed otherwise and to those who have taken those claims at face value.

It's time this country took to weeding out the endemic misogyny in our culture and the misogyny that we are allowing to creep in from in coming cultures.

Girls should be educated in the history of their grandmothers, enlightened as to the horrific gender violence that females suffer in this world and the means to politicise themselves in such a way that this cannot be sustained and perpetuated.

Faith schools should without doubt be rigorously inspected for this behaviour in particular and shut down if found wanting in this area.

It's time we and the rest of the world brought gender violence to a level of consciousness that racism has acquired eliciting the same shame and legal backing that racism enjoys.

I just wonder, if there happens to have a book, let alone a school book exists anywhere on earth referring Muslims in such derogatory terms, not only the Muslims in that community would go up in arms, going on the streets and shouting for the head of the author. I bet before long, a fatwa would be issued somewhere from one of the Muslim countries for the life of the author.
I find it so intriguing that the Muslims are so ready to defend whatever is done in the name of Islam without really looking at the real issue. Whoever on earth with a right mind would condone the teaching of such bigotry in this day and age?? (regardless of the 'context').

People must understand all from the perspective of the Muslim.
1 - they are superior to all none Muslims.
2 - they have a Koranic obligation to spread Islam around the globe, in doing so wipe out any faith other than Islam.
3 - the means can vary, one is they must leave their homes, fight and or breed.
4 - to deceive the infidel into believing that Islam is a Religious Faith, and not the ideology it truly is.
5 - to convince the none Muslim that their 'Faith' is a Faith of Peace and goodwill to all.
Despite the FACT there is no evidence to support it, in ancient, recent or modern history or current times!
Up till now, they have been very successful in convincing naive politicians and liberal lefties that have been taken in, but many of the public have not!

I suggest as a comparison people should read Mein Kampf and the Koran, then 'play spot the difference'.

I repeat from another blog - Iron - Bamboo and now or never a Niqab or Burqa curtain.
Otherwise, your kids kids will be asking 'why was it not done' when it was easy to do it!

The way he held the interview was apalling.Jeramey Paxton is allow way too much free rein when conducting interviews and does not allow for a fair representation of the debated issue , but instead influences the sudiences opinions with that of his own. he is rude and brash,and comes across as if he is saying that he knows all the answers and can solve the worlds problems with his own quick judements and blame placement.

Jeramy Paxton does not promote the qualities that are nessesary and expected from a news presenter. He is overtly biased and in in plain terms a bully who does not represent and discuss contreversial issues in the news,nor does he encourage freedom of speach or critical thinking and analysis. Instead he places blame and immediate , personal judgement onto the interview parties in his disfavour, when the viewer should be offered a nonbiased representation of facts and opinions inorder to constuct an understanding of confussions and misunderstanding as well as motive.
Jeramy Paxton seem to want to take credit for obtaning direct and straightforeward answers form polititions and representitives on his show, however he goes about this in a damaging and illmannered way. He misconstrews statements and personaly attacts those on his show , and does not gage in constructive debate, but instead ends the discussions with his own mummble rude conclusion, closing the issue dut to the fact that he has has his own personal gripe aired ,in anticipation of a round of applause.

This country so conserned with promoting equality and understanding, peace and cohibition should look agin at the way these intentions are represented, especially in the choice of news readers and news presenters.Media has a responsability for its effects on the public , most especially on the affect it has on the public opinions concerning international issues such as race hatred and war.The goverment seems to want to promote equality and peace but is losing this battle by allowing presenters like Jeramy Paxton to continue to air their own political and social opinions publicly.

Why is it that the teachers were not forced to resign and no-one held accountable? If this disgraceful behaviour was found going on in a Christian school there would have been an uproar, teachers forced to resign and the school shut down.

Most people in this country, myself included, believe in respecting ALL people no matter what their faith, race or ethnic background. Sadly there are racists amongst EVERY race. Most muslims are decent caring people who I am proud to live side by side with in this wonderful country we all share. Yet there are sadly some others who can spout hatred and make racist comments without ever being held accountable.

Why is this always allowed?

Two of my local post offices have Muslim managers and have for the past 15 years only ever employed people of their own race, blatantly breaking the law by discriminating against the other 60 races that live in the area many of which I am sure would like a job there but are unable as they are discriminated against openly. I complained to the post office service about this almost year ago but nothing was ever done about it.

Surely the anti-discrimination laws were set up to protect everyone? And surely children should be protected most of all?

No wonder there is such a huge amount of simmering resentment brewing. It is an utter disgrace. What is this country becoming?

Shame on our government and the school governing bodies for not having the integrity or the courage to address these problems. Hypocrites.

Will the 大象传媒 stand up and be counted or will it also continue to ignore this problem too?