Thursday, 29 March, 2007
- 29 Mar 07, 07:01 PM
Will David Miliband challenge Gordon Brown for the leadership of the Labour Party? David Grossman examines the growing pressure on the environment secretary.
Plus: Justin Rowlatt on the possibility of freedom for Briton Bisher Al Rawi, currently held in Guantanamo; Peter Marshall asks who's making the decisions in Iran over what to do with the 15 detained British marines; Humphrey Hawksley reports from the Ivory Coast on evidence of child labour in the cocoa industry; and 40 years years since the creation of the iconic Sgt Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band album cover - Madeleine Holt speak to its creator Peter Blake.
Jeremy presents . Your comments are welcome below.
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"freedom for Briton Bisher Al Rawi, currently held in Guantanamo"
What? I thought all Britons had been released from Guantanamo? Don't you mean "British resident" rather than "Briton"?
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the iranians see the uk as the weakest link. They see the female as the weakest link. with the 2nd letter they are demanding the complete humiliation of Tony to say they were in iranian waters after he said they were not.
are we the weakest link?
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Iran:
This is just another part of the Islamic world wide Jihad against the West. Therefore the current situation should not be seen in isolation.
They as always make the rules of conflict, so then I have to ask 'why are we not playing by them rules'?
1 - Over the next 24 hours I would expect to hear about all Iranians in Britain being picked up and detained, and that includes the 大象传媒's favourite police Officer + a Navy Officer.
2 - Then offer an exchange for the 15!
3 - Deportation of all Iranians from Britain, on the return of our 15 un-harmed, that's the deal take it or leave it, should be the direct and public response to Iran and the Iranian.
Otherwise, the Iranians in Britain need to start realising how many very angry Squaddies are still here!
Will anything like it happen - nope not a chance, the Government (tolerance) will CONTINUE to let any Muslim from anywhere pull our chains as and when they please!
Where is a Maggie when you need one!
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David Miliband should challenge for the leadership of the Labour Party as one of its rising stars. Gordon Brown should face a challenge I think for the leadership of the party. Although he is favourite to become the next leader and our next Prime Minister I would like to hear as many points of view from various candidates and see who is best to become leader and next Prime Minister. I would not be surprised that over the next few weeks we do not see many people within the party trying to persuade Mr Miliband to stand as so far he has said he will not. I await with great interest to see whether he will or not. I suspect he may be persuaded to stand finally. MPs tend to say one thing and do another.
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there is a precedent for how this could end. The iranians could keep them till after tony resigns in a month or so which is a tactic they used with the american 'hostages' and so humiliate him as something he could never finish?
the rn messed up by being outwitted by the iranians and now those people will just have to sit it out till the iranians get bored and tony resigns?
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The hole Iran placed itself gets deeper.
The latest stunt Iran expects the world to swallow :)
"On Thursday it released a second letter apparently written by Leading Seaman Faye Turney calling on the UK to start withdrawing its troops from Iraq" [1]
Iran is truly a 3rd rate circus being run by clowns
"鈥淪tupidity is better kept a secret than displayed鈥 - Heraclitus of Ephesus
A very interesting article about Diplomacy in Iran - "Persian Culture and Iran's Defiant Diplomacy: A View From Tehran" [2]
vikingar
SOURCES:
[1]
[2]
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test blog
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Personally, I think the "second letter" with its reference to "Iraq" is a tacit admission by the Iranians that they're losing the argument, and are therefore desperately trying to change it to something else where they hope they may find greater support and "justification" for their actions.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the "Newsnight" analysis tonight (or, rather tommorow, as it's impossible to watch *both* "Question Time" and "Newsnight" concurrently...)
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Following Dicky (Message 5):
A friend of mine rather mischievously suggested to me today that Tony Blair should announce he's making Gordon Brown personally responsible for handling the crisis...
Where is Macavity?
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Ref "dicky" #5
"the rn messed up by being outwitted by the iranians and now those people will just have to sit it out till the iranians get bored and tony resigns?"
Royal Navy outwitted?
If a radical nation with uncontrollable/erratic fanatical forces is prepared to break international rules, law & convention, they will.
Look forward to the debrief on the whole incident & the part HMS Cornwall played, but if our naval forces are ambushed, outgunned & other navel forces via the frigate draft cannot navigate shallow waters, our lot did the right thing.
The opening shots in any war, brings initial causalities.
vikingar
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The word everyone is pussyfooting around is "Islam". The religeous men in power in Iran are reared on the Islamic assumption that they cannot be wrong, for it is divinely decreed that "infidels" (ie anyone else) is wrong. Always. Automatically. When the facts indicate a Muslim may be wrong, the facts must be wrong. By releasing the maps, we showed that they were wrong, and so automatically they got louder in their insistance that they are right, whatever the facts, whatever the truth as the world sees it. The world is wrong. That is the Islamicist mind set, and it is why Iran is so very dangerous.
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Regarding increased income for cocoa farmers in the region of 24% - surely this isn't a figure we should be proud of? You mean to say that these farmers earn ~拢124/year, rather than 拢100? Frankly, it's disgusting.
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Excellent Jeremy tonight (15/10)! The possible Labour leadership contest with David Milliband reminds me of an old episode of "Yes Prime Minister" where Jim Hacker takes up the cause of the British sausage, gets the public on his side, and ends up 3-1 favourite to be leader, and subsequently becomes PM! Life imitating art? Very moving piece on the cocoa farmers in the Ivory Coast, and how little money they receive from the industry - especially the farmer's face when told by the reporter how much the box of chocolates cost, when the average cocoa farmer barely makes 拢100 per year. Excellent debate with the Cocoa industry spokesperson - especially as Jeremy pointed out why wasn't there a fair trade agreement with the Ivory Coast? We were told it was being worked upon! Without reports like this, we wouldn't even know it. Throughly excellent :-)
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Surely Newsnight should be about in-depth analysis. The item about the cocoa trade told me that there was a problem but left me no wiser about either the root causes or about what should be done. It's no good providing schools if children have to work full time in order to live, and it's no good paying farmers higher prices if they're just going to have to pay bigger bribes to get the produce to market. So what should be done? I was left feeling that the industry was all set to provide ineffective showpiece solutions, in response to poorly informed media indignation.
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I thought the segement on the cocoa trade was excellent in that it really laid bare the shockingly high price that is paid chocolate by those children - it's obvious that the root cause is the greed of the chocolate industry and the ignorance of most of us consumers as well who happily chow down on chocolate that has been produced using exploited children and underpaid farmers. But I want to know what I can do so I googled and found this link to this campaign. I'll be urging everyone I know to buy fairtrade Easter Eggs this year and fairtrade chocolate from now on.
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The text of the second letter released by Iranian authorities, purportedly written by captured British sailor Faye Turney [1]
Very sophisticated writers these Iranian radicals aren't they :)
There is a Persian proverb 鈥.. "Be a lion at home and a fox abroad" *
* the Iranian Republican Guardian & the regime of old President Ahmadinejad, on their own doorstep, once again have further demoted the strategy & tactics of Iranian military & its radical regime to that of a jack ass.
vikingar
SOURCES:
[1]
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"Experts say that the recently-discovered ancient Jiroft civilisation (south east Iran) was one of the earliest literate societies in the world" [1]
3,000 years later, given 'dubious' standard of Iran's latest two coerced letters, the current Iranian education system has a lot to answer for :)
vikingar
SOURCES:
[1]
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The problem over Iran puts our renewal of Trident as just "flim Flam. When Iran gets the bomb, as they will in time, they will make sure that any anti Islamic rhetoric from either the "west" or Israel will be met with a Nuclear threat.
What is more serious that either Israel or Iran won't "pusseyfoot" around and we will see the probable end of civilisation. Muslims treat life as a transitory way of reaching their religious goal, and if they will meet a glorious martrydom with lots of "Totty" to boot, so well and good.
We will cave in to their threats as we could not give them the protection they needed when carrying out their orders and duty, so why rely on the British Government in finding a solution to the problem, without a total climb down?
They were either in Iranian territorial waters or not? To date all we have seen are 2 probably "falsified" satallite readings that prove both cases.
The so called "Might" of the British Navy is no better than some "banana republic". The "ship that died of shame" comes to mind.
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Even if Iran is a third-rate circus being run by clowns (no. 6), it is a third-rate circus that has laid its hands on our sailors, and this makes it no laughing matter. Once again, service personnel are shoved into the desperate position of pawn in a power and prestige struggle. Faye seems to be doing very well in showing that she is subject to coercion (ie Representative not MP) (if those are her words and not an Iranian bully's). But it seems the US doesn't want to know, and I am sick and tired of the so-called Special Relationship we are supposed to have with them. Rory Bremner got it right: How shall we resolve this farce? Take Blair's head from Bush's ... (well, I don't have to spell it out, do I?) It may not resolve this particular farce, but it may prevent future farces.
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Ref Bill Bradbury #18
"The so called "Might" of the British Navy is no better than some "banana republic". The "ship that died of shame" comes to mind"
Ref the two rubber boats of the RN the Iranian Navy bravely ambushed.
If a radical nation with uncontrollable/erratic fanatical forces is prepared to break international rules, law & convention, they will.
Some play the game & by the rules & some do not e.g. if the opposing team, invaded the changing room & kidnapped the front line, during half time, we would not expect that as a reasonable form of normal play.
Look forward to the debrief on the whole incident & the part HMS Cornwall played, but if our naval forces are ambushed, outgunned & other navel forces via the frigate cannot navigate shallow waters, our lot did the right thing.
The opening shots in any war, brings initial causalities.
Postive thing to come out of this pathetic Iranian imposed episode, is the self outing of radical Iran, who is going to trust them now on anything :)
vikingar
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Ref Bill Bradbury #18
"The so called "Might" of the British Navy is no better than some "banana republic". The "ship that died of shame" comes to mind"
Ref the two rubber boats of the RN the Iranian Navy bravely ambushed.
Some play the game & by the rules & some do not e.g. if the opposing team, invaded the changing room & kidnapped the front line, during half time, we would not expect that as a reasonable form of normal play.
Postive thing to come out of this pathetic Iranian imposed episode, is the self outing of radical Iran, who is going to trust them now on anything :)
vikingar
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" .... Both her letters were in stilted English, leading some linguistic experts to suggest the text may have been written originally in Farsi and translated into English" [1]
... & the radical kingdom was lost for the sake of a translator :)
vikingar
[1]
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I really worry for the 15 captured seaman and the way the diplomatic moves are going.The British approach to the UN to get some strong worded statement condemning Irans actions which some members could not even agree on the wording of the statement, seems to have made matters worse. A bigger concern that i have is the foreign secretary Margaret beckett might be a little bit out of her depth within her role as foreign secretary and trying to tackle this recent diplomatic incident plus its unknown path may show up her shortcomings and at present this crisis needs someone with a bit more gravitas.
I do hope she has good council.
I think the Americans have been told to stay out of this present crisis,or are aware that them piping up will inflame this to another level,
When will the United nations ever agree on anything.
"okey, today is Thursday, are we all agreed, hands up, one, two, three, oh feck, what part of the statement don't you agree on, eh"
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DAVID MILIBAND?
Last night鈥檚 item on 大象传媒 Newsnight, questioning whether David Miliband is a serious candidate for leadership of New Labour, was a valid 鈥 if somewhat tongue in cheek 鈥 contribution to this important debate. On the other hand, in trying to simplify the position and add some entertainment value, it possibly added to the confusion.
In particular, the repeated comparisons with David Cameron were misleading. It is true that David Miliband鈥檚 poll ratings are low, but this reflects the fact that he has yet to achieve significant positive exposure in his own right rather than playing a supporting role to Tony Blair. But if he is chosen he will have two, maybe three, years as prime minister to build an authoritative image 鈥 building on the successful elements of Blair鈥檚 legacy whilst avoiding the trap of Iraq - where Cameron has a similar time to lose his cuddly image 鈥 being forced to face up to the reality of hard decisions in terms of policy. On the other hand, Gordon Brown already has a decade of image behind him 鈥 which is so firmly entrenched it will be difficult to shake off 鈥 so Miliband鈥檚 鈥榣ack of history鈥 should offer New Labour an advantage. He will have a blank canvas on which to write his own 鈥榤ission statement鈥, much as Cameron so successfully did.
Having made that important qualification, it is clear that Miliband will have a very different image to his two rivals. He still comes across as somewhat inexperienced and even as gauche. Where Cameron built on his experience in public relations to spin his own ephemeral image, Miliband鈥檚 experience has been in strategy; which should be a major strength for any putative PM but hardly adds to charisma. This gives him something of a policy wonk image, but at least he knows what a PM needs and the charisma will come with the office of PM. What we forget is that means he is coming from a position rather similar to that where Tony Blair started; genuinely recreating Labour as New Labour with a genuinely different position in the political spectrum 鈥 rather than using smoke and mirrors to create an illusion as David Cameron has. Indeed, where the toff Cameron seeks to look like Blair, Miliband comes from the same mould. He even could in practice emulate one of our greatest PMs 鈥 Clement Attlee 鈥 who also was impeccably modest (where the accompanying trustworthiness is much valued by the electorate if not the political pundits) and whilst at the same time being an effective leader of a strong cabinet.
In truth the actual decision which now has to be made is a choice for leader of New Labour (and thence PM in the short term) between Miliband and Brown. In practice, due to the former鈥檚 lack of exposure, this will largely be a vote for or against the latter. Brown certainly has had all the exposure David Miliband is missing. However, this has been in a role where doing nothing 鈥 albeit with considerable flair 鈥 has been the main virtue. As a result his image has increasingly resulted from his obsession with becoming 鈥 as he thinks 鈥榓s of right鈥 鈥 the next PM. Accordingly he has at times come across as bitter and twisted 鈥 unfairly deprived of his right to be PM - not least last year when he seemingly orchestrated the moves to undermine Tony Blair, moves which have since led to New Labour鈥檚 poor showing in the poll鈥檚 and especially to Blair鈥檚 image problems. Indeed, Brown鈥檚 image has been largely created by negative events; which is why his own image is correspondingly poor. As the polls show, Brown is now a major threat to the future of his own party; where he and his spin doctors would want him to be its saviour. What is worse is that the evidence shows that those closest to him, in the Commons and especially in Cabinet, share that view. All of this will inevitably emerge in any challenge; or afterwards if an unchallenged coronation is engineered 鈥 as Brown and his small group of advisers clearly intend.
Will Miliband make that challenge? Probably not by himself, but if 鈥 as seems likely 鈥 a stalking horse starts the challenge do not be surprised to see him having his arm twisted to also take part. If he refuses, and Brown is the disaster we expect, he will be blamed for political cowardice 鈥 and his career will be ended. If he challenges and loses he may still have a future. If he challenges and wins then 鈥 like Tony Blair who is the model for this future 鈥 he will be difficult to stop.
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I cannot believe how much anti-muslim feeling there is on this board. Can't anyone just take muslims and islam out of the equation, and just concentrate on the fact that the asian peninsula is trying to protect its autonomy and territory; it is not going around the english channel trying to police it. please, don't try to categorise all muslims as crazy lunatics. that would be like saying all christians are like hitler. the issue is much more sensitive and complex. and people forget there are christians living in iraq and iran too, so don't make them all religious fanatics. tariq aziz, saddam's foreign secretary was a christian!!!! iran has a mixed ethnic minority including zorastrians, christians and muslims.
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Vikinger (18) my criticism is not over the action of those who were ambushed. They had no choice in the matter and did the right thing, as they were outflanked and outgunned.
My comment is over what the mothership was doing. Surely their radar must have spotted the approach of the Iranian gunboats and given our troops some advance warning. It appears from what I have read, (never always true) that the approach of the first Iranian craft was thought to be friendly then the rest turned up and got nasty.
My other point was the inadequate air cover which would have spotted these craft in plenty of time.
Yet another military "cock-up" for some brave people the equivalent of our soldiers in the early days not having proper Flack Jackets.
As to the rights and wrongs of the situation it is developing into a "Yes you did, no we didn't" type of argument, whilst, through no fault of their own our servicemen, and woman, remain captured. Even the UN can't bring itself to give us strong support, another lot of "wasted space".
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IRAQ
At first I almost joined those in Daily Mail Land wondering why on Earth we had Comical Ali's daft cousin on to waffle for Iran and Islam, but actually I'd say go for it... he did more damage to his cause under Jeremy's more than gentle probing than could have been hoped. For all the good it does knowing that 'we' are 'dealing' with those whose national footy stadium must be the only one with wheeled goalposts.
Sadly, the opposing side of the inevitable Newsnight 'twofer' seemed to be a guy who would have followed Nevile Chamberlain into the gates of hell or, rather, the gas chambers. Usually I am irritated by the dog-fight style of provoking commentary that simply drives ratings and makes the 大象传媒 moderator look the only voice of reason, but this issue deserved a lot more.
As it stands, no one is coming out of this well, especially the poor sods seemingly almost forgotten about, at least 14 of them. Plus ca change...
I await with dread the eventual outcome, even, god willing (or should that be 'fingers' crossed'?), their return. Then we will see the pols and the media and their 'experts' at their ... most predictable.
MR. 'I CAN, BUT THEN AGAIN...' MILIBAND
In light of recent comparisons with Communist Russian state behaviours by certain people and administrations, I was amazed to see the staged crowd scenes by Labour's hype & spin department.
As to Mr. Miliband as a leader, you only have to read his Spectator speech, repeated in the Telegraph the other day:
A shame so many used it as a shop to simply fire insults at each other, but then, that's today's' Parliament. Thank heavens I still have a vote. All I need now is a worthy direction to point it.
That's along with the rest of the electorate, some of which I do hope are still also watching closely. And not just the Westminster Wonderboys and Girls in the lobby, with pens poised to tell us what to think in their 'We know best-fest', flush with exclusive new vigour following the shock and awe victory over Mr. Fawkes the other night, by cleverly choosing a weak foe bobbing about in a big seas (sound familiar?) and using overwhelming force... that was of course available by taxpayers' funding.
COCA... ISN'T IT?
Sadly I these days have to view all such pieces with a cloud of suspicion over the objectivity of the news media, but what I saw made me very sad and very angry.
Like so many cases, a person says dark is milk, and that's it. Maybe JP does get to rebut, but the silky words of the PR blonde distraction effort still register despite her getting to squirm and issue a series of nonsense about 'reviews' and 'talking' and 'stats' any pol would be proud of. And to her 'determination to strive harder' she gets a thank you... 'as that's all we have time for'. This latter is set to be carved into the headstone of accuracy and truth in broadcast news.
In a few nights, for the media and all who watched it, this will be old news. Not for these kids. And how many luvvies in London would see doing without their choccy fix.. as one ethical commitment too far? Do I not buy my kids an Easter Egg? If so whose? I have no idea how to act as consumer. Oh well, the moment has passed. But I'm sure it will win a news award.
ps: Why, if this site is moderated, do we get a post that says 'test blog', yet some I am aware of that do offer interesting commentary do not make it on board?
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'Freedom for Bisher Al Rawi'
I think the media coverage of the release of this man at the point of announcement of his release, makes us all sort of feel, a warm cushy 'ah, well at least he's now released' - but
lest we forget, the admittedly rare coverage about the absolute hellish torture this man has experienced at the hands of a Western government, for being a SUSPECT of terrorism. To the point, as suggested by his lawyer, that he is released mentally unstable. The type of torture the Western governments oh so condemn and shake a finger at. But let's not talk about that, because it's all about the war on terror and we're all the safer for it all, aren't we?
Muslims do not feel safe, and knowing that they can be picked up, have their homes violently raided, and even be tortured by being whisked off abroad, with no explanation, no evidence, begs the question of who it
is that is tearing to pieces community cohesion.
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I re-watched Thursdays NN.
Ref JP relatively brief interview with former Brit Ambassador to Iran & Iranian professor (a Tehran university).
A diplomatic exercise in itself.
Hope that I am right in thinking, that JP's reserve & measured 'bite ones tongue' method of engagement, was due to combo of one or more of the following:
- best to get an Iranian point of view on this, regardless.
- resist the temptation to ridicule Iran's pathetic attempts to legitimate an ludicrous set of events & its improv inadequate defence.
- be mindful that the academic had to go back to face & live with the radical regime & thugs who are central to all of this.
But for all what was said, the correct passive stance adopted by JP & what was not said, stood out to make a lasting & positive impression.
vikingar
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I won't forget what I saw in the report on the cocoa trade, and that I'll act on it. I'm lucky, I've got the means on my doorstep in the form of Out Of This World. You can buy a share for a fiver.
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The cocoa industry piece was interesting.In some ways the Freetrade brand chocolate(advertised ,I think, as "chocolate with a heart")which is now available on most high streets is an unfortunate barrier to addressing the real problems of unfair trading.It certinly raises the profile of the problem-but it is a drop in the ocean.I suspect the market share of this freetrade brand is something like o.o(recurring)2 per cent.(Anyway,very little)
We should not forget that the freetrade problem is far from restricted to chocolate, but extends also to tea,coffee and exotic fruits such as bananas, although it is possible that chocolate is some kind of special case-or the best example- as the big players in chocolate have an effective monopoly through their market share.
The representative of the chocolate industry was hopeless at putting their case-and I was left dumbfoundedly wondering if this was the best they could manage.
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peter at 27
your comment ended with=
"ps: Why, if this site is moderated, do we get a post that says 'test blog', yet some I am aware of that do offer interesting commentary do not make it on board?"
yes i have noticed that as well, but i think maybe some posts do not get on here as they may be to long winded or tedious.
(dont take that wrong, its just an observation)
ps .whats wrong with the Daily Mail, its a great paper.
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could someone please let me know if fair trade chocolate is grown and harvested under the same conditions as reported in Newsnight 30 March. This point was not address.
I have no problem now not purchasing any product with chocolate as an ingredient.
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I am horrified at newsnights choice of interviewees over the Iranian issue. What sort of anti British postion are we portraying?? The people of this country need reassuring by the media that we need to maintain the toughest possible stance against these people
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TIMESCALES & DEADLINES:
I do hope Margaret Beckett in her role as Foregin Secretary, stays on top of things, in terms of timescales & deadlines, ref the release of the 15 British personnel kidnapped by Iran.
In her capacity as Environment Secretary, Margaret Beckett was responsbile for the "fiasco" over implementation of a new Single Payments Scheme for farmers, many are still awaiting payment [1]
Just in case 鈥. we should send the lads a vaulting horse :)
... besides, our very best wishes.
vikingar
SOURCES:
[1]
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Mr. Wallace @ 32
'...maybe some posts do not get on here as they may be too long winded or tedious.(Don't take that wrong, it's just an observation)'
None taken! Plus adding to the quality of discussion significantly by offering some possible explanations, thanks. Though as the issue of editorial control and 'moderation' does crop up on these pages, one has to wonder 'who' gets to decide on 'what' is long-winded and/or tedious as a basis for rejection. I don't think 'you are boring' or 'I prefer complex things debated in one sentence' is really legitimate for censorship purposes. There lies the route to a soundbite-driven culture. Worse, the removal of context as a way to ensure accurate communication of thoughts and information. I do agree that brevity is best, if possible. However I think it was Mark Twain who said: 'It takes a long time to craft a worthwhile piece of long copy. Even longer to produce a short one'. Unpaid bloggers sadly do not always enjoy the luxury of time in getting across points as, say, big media commentators. 'You doesn't pays yer money, so's yer takes even more chances'.
And I do still feel the actual answer to my question may still elude us. On reflection, my thought is that the moderator is tolerant of those simply trying to ensure they are posting correctly on a technical basis, though that could possibly make for longer, and less productive, threads.
'ps .what's wrong with the Daily Mail? It's a great paper'
I don't think I wrote that there was anything wrong with it, necessarily. It was just a way of making an observation... in shortwi...handed terms:)
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Ref #36
As a liberal conservative more happy with The Guradian (on certain issues only now) & other papers for their own insights/niches.
Like my NCA 'rare' but find The Daily Mail too 'well done' for my tastes, though on certain issues bang on.
The Sun? for people too lazy to think (or unable to raise an independent though)
vikingar
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Maurice - Northumberland - just grow up.
Where is Maggie indeed?
Screwing things up like proposed Royal Navy defence cuts between 1979-1982.
Which Argentina took as a sign of weakness.
Then she would talk tough on Europe, but then sign the single market.
Thatchers foreign policy left massive gaps between rhetoric and reality. So grow up.
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Ref rory997 #38
The fact that politicians can take wrong decisions is not the point.
It's how they pull their chestnuts out of the proverbial fire & make necessary policy change.
Also a measure of good politics, is discontinuing poor policy inherited from a previous administration, rather than blindingly steaming ahead.
The situation changes, the strategy should change, but it always does not.
btw - in 1982 Argentina was a significant trading & military partner & regional ally (strained relationship). The cock up ref that assessment of risk, was pure FO (hence Lord Carrington's resignation) [1]
Mrs Thatcher [2] reversed policy, won the war, retook the islands & in the process regenerated the UK & gave her popular mandate to win 3 elections, become longest serving PM for 11.5 years (unlikely to ever be broken) & transformed both public & private sector (the successful ethos of which has been exported to other countries).
The fact that it all ended in tears (being defeated by Tory MP's rather than by the electorate) is part of politics, Mrs T forgetting some of the basics responsible for her success.
vikingar
SOURCES:
[1]
[2]
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peter at 36
er sorry peter,i can be a bit of a bozo the clown sometimes and its a habit born out of writing jokes(well i try) or monologues, with pen and pad at the ready. I can get carried away amusing myself with even serious matters and finding humour in them. Sometimes a biting wit just takes a hold of me and i can let fly,and for some, my comments can appear nasty or just sarcastic.
My comment about the long winded posts is partly about my own unsuccesful posts that i fear, can turn out to be more of a rant with terrible grammer, rather than a well constructed argument or anayasys,(spelling gone to pot here) which i hope for but does not always happen, some no doubt will say i never achieve that.
Your reply post at 36 was a classic peter comment, with the use of the English laungage at a level i can not compete with but i do read most that appear and will scratch my head and reread, a bit like when i read Will Self or some other clever wordsmith author/writer.It needs full attention which it deserves but i can be guilty of speed reading through a post sometimes and the big long posts can be demanding for my limited attention span, so my stupid playful comment was a response to my own, sometimes unsuccesful post as well as having a little unjustifiable dig at the other bigger post and oftentimes better constructed comments.
I am of to the fridge for a bit of pie, humble i suppose and when eaten i will flick through that "penguin guide to punctuation" and figure out that semi colon and reread huckleberry Finn, then come back on here in six months with the verve that could match chomsky, okey, well hitchens,er well how about littlejohn, philips maybe,no! okey then, the letter page in the Daily Mail, yep, that will do ...my God, will my letters ever get published on the daily mail letter page, i don't think i can handle another rejection email
Jesus, talk about leaving your self open to ridicule! . but like guido fawlks, i'll be back.
Sigmund, where are you? couch time..
why did i include Chomsky in that list, does he write with verve? ah well, i'll sleep on that question.
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#38 RORY
Note, I said 'Where is A Maggie'?
A PM. who has balls, a British PM. a British Government.
The country has not had any of these during the last 10 years!
#39 just about covers the rest of your effort!
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#41 Maurice.
Again - grow up. International Relations doesnt require machismo in this situation.
Maggie would have blundered this situation, and we would be further away from the release of our people.
#40 - Mr Wallace.
The Falklands was not the fault of the FCO. Carrington, a gentlemen fell on his sword to cover for Thatchers mistake.
My point about her foreign policy still stands. There was a massive gap between her rhetoric and reality.
Quiet diplomacy needs to run its course in this situation. Then we will be justified our military response when the Iranians fail to send our people back.
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#42 - The situation would not have arisen had there been a credible British Government in place, emphasis on 'British' of the historical kind!
Growing old is not a choice, growing up is - take my advice, do it!
I have had to do one and chose to do the other!
It appears you have done neither.
The News that the Hostages will be released is one thing - when will we get to hear the price?
PS - what is your problem with Thatcher? Do you know what she inherited in 1979 - we could not even afford a row boat let alone a Navy - we were bust, broke, skint and the country in a state of bankruptcy!
So when you talk of Thatcher, start from the disastrous square one left by the 'Crisis What Crisis' Government of Wilson/Callaghan.
Same + worse to follow with the Blair/Brown growing debacle!
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"This is just another part of the Islamic world wide Jihad against the West. Therefore the current situation should not be seen in isolation"
Listen to yourself! Another Islamic worldwide Jihad? You dont even know what Jihad means so don't use it.
Most of the population of Iran are Shia which are seen as deviant group who make their own rules about Islam so how can this be another so-called 'Islamic worldwide Jihad'. It would take 5 mins to actually carry out some TRUE research and not follow the usual propoganda 'information' in the news to see the difference between their beliefs and of a Muslim (those who actually follow Islam).
Thats the problem nowadays...everyone thinks they know it. You don't have to take my word for it...just do the research and think before you say something.
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