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The nation state is the foundation of social solidarity, and the reason we accept paying taxes to fund services and benefits for each other. Even European elections are fought on national issues.

Unless that ever changes, and people would really prefer to choose between the Party of European Socialists and the European People's Party, we should keep as many powers as is practically possible in Britain, in our elected Parliament, in town and county halls, and where possible in parish and neighbourhood councils for very local services.

Trouble is, this Sunday on 25 March in Berlin Tony Blair will sign a 50-page ‘Declaration on the Future of Europe' without consulting the UK people.

We should have had this debate long ago. Instead people in the media have laughed at those who have warned that the EU is a federal state in the making and that it will end Britain's right to self-determination.

Britain should follow PETER MANDELSON's advice to fully fully with its european partners within the context of the EU. Yielding a bit of national power - in order to influence the EU as a whole. Unilateralism does not help any country face on its own paramount issues such as climate change, energy security, proliferation, regional conflicts, immigration etc.

I think that the EU is rapidly destroying the whole fabric and foundation of this country. We should withdraw from the EU and become part of the old European Free Trade Association or start it up again if it is now defunct. Europe needs us more than we need them.

Peace, prosperity, improved employment laws, health & safety, improved transport, working time legislaion, gender issues, green issues, support for small business,education opportunities - a few more human rights bits and pieces, and creation of the Euro has given opportunities both to travellers and hedge fund investors -but apart from that !
Lots more opportunities out there.
Support EU and stuff Westminster.

I am a UK based Theatre Producer and have worked in Europe since 1991. I have toured Shows throughout the EU with the exception of France. My comment is this; I have found the different cultures throughout Europe to be invigorating and complimentary to the development of our Society. I believe that the weakening of national borders and nationalistic fervour only enhances us as a common people and gives the identity of being European real stature as a beacon for tolerance and liberalization. I fully accept and respect those who strove for European unity as real post war heroes to be lauded throughout history!

What has Europe done for us?
Wasted billions of our money due to corruption and downright fraud.
Decimated our fishing fleet.Exported our jobs.Unlocked our borders to mass immigration.Strangled our businesses with red tape. Over ridden our laws (and negated our ability to make law)
I voted, mistakenly for a "Common Market"- a trading partnership. I did not know that our political masters were envisaging a political federation involving UNELECTED bureaucrats ruling every aspect of our lives! I certainly did NOT vote for a common currency, a common foreign policy, or directives on straight bananas and uncurly cucumbers! Nor did I vote for some left wing apparatchik enforcing how many hours I work, or how much tax I pay! I did not vote for paying zillions of £s in extra tax to keep French farmers in their inefficiency, or allowing Spanish trawlers to put our fishermen out of business! Nor did I vote for a corrupt ruling class that not only does not balance its accounts, but sacks the auditor and then continues (for over 12 years) to sanction fraud on a massive scale!
We were lied to in the 60s & 70s, and we are still being lied to now. Blair Has caved in to France & Germany over the British rebate,and is about to sign us up to the hated constitution WITHOUT the promised referendum.
THE ONLY way we should continue in this menagerie is to INSIST that the plethora of rules, regulations and stifling strangulating directives are consigned to the scrap heap. Otherwise we should pull right out of the EU before it implodes

Mainly due to medical failings in the UK I have had successfull medical treatment in Spain and are contiuing to receive treatment. Great european intergration from the Spanish. On the other side the UK have decided to stop my Invalidity benefit and my pension credit totally ignoring EC regulations EC 883/2004Coordination of Social Security Sytems. Clause 13 states The coordination rules must Guaranteethat persons moving within the Comunity and their dependantsand survivorsretain the rights and advantages and (those in the course of being acquired.So While the EU has helped me overcome some health problems. UK has totally Ignored my rights in the EC. So I wish the UK would participate fully.

A Duffy

What has Europe done for us? Since the beginning the objective was primarily stability and the end of European wars. This has been acheived with spectacular success, the old rivalries are now played out on the football field and in the meeting rooms of Brussels. The economic impact has been massively positive as well with high prosperity and economic stability; new countries are battering the door down to get in. We are all Europeans whether we like it or not so it is surely better to act together? We are part of a Global market and need to be aligned with a large bloc to survive. Having said that the risk is that we will forge ahead without the necessary democratic institutions being created and maintained. The key to a successful Federation of European Countries will be for it to be democratic and be seen to be democratic as well. The problem is that as soon as one says the "Federal" word the Right start yelling their heads off which drowns the debate, this is why the UK has such a strange relationship with the project and why we have always joined everything last and grudgingly. The UK must start to take the lead, not lag behind all the time like a reluctant child. In this way we can build the Europe that the British want to see, not be Johnny come lately all the time.

The EU has charged us a vast amount of money, removed most of our democratic process and imposed a soviet style across its vassal states.

While doing this it has ruined our agricultural and fishery industries. It has imposed immense regulatory burdens on our commercial and manufacturing companies in order to harmonise and homogenise them apparently so they become susceptible to take over by (mainly) other european companies whose home market protects the predatory companies and in some cases subsidise the take over activity.

This singular emasculation of the Uk is, I believe, rooted in the fact that we have, traditionally, been the home of freedom and could be relied on to help liberate other european countries from the yoke of enslavement from whatever quarter.

In short the Brussels soviet seeks to remove power from the one country that could once have ensured freedom.

The EU has done nothing for us but we have paid a terrible price for pour putative enslavement.

there will never be so called European Union, every single instituation knows it, we are faced with a blind point here.
wonder why they are continuing to hide the truth.

All the turmoil we see around the world is NOT caused by religion but by misplaced ideas about "the nation state".

We need to break down the barriers that divide us and start supporting the measures that bring people closer together.

I am fully behind the 'European Union', as a means to an end.
Ultimately I wish for the world to be under one rule, one aim, one currency and most important 'All Equal'.
The short term problems will get ironed out eventually.
Great Britain, has always had foresight and the willingness to embrace new and bolder enterprises, let us continue.

1. Linked the Continent's major economies so closely that another war in Europe is not only unthinkable, it would be virtually impossible.
2. Through first ostracising and then (when they'd got rid of their dictators) embracing Portugal, Spain and Greece embedded democracy in Southern Europe.
3. Helped to embed democracy in the former Soviet orbit.
4. Raised living standards across the continent - particularly in Ireland, Spain and Portugal.
5. Created a realistic economic rival and equal partner to the United States.
6. Enabled free movement of people across Europe.
7. Introduced uniform standards for electrical and other products, thereby cutting industry's costs and boosting safety.
8. Encouraged the development of joint policies in foreign affairs. (It doesn't always work - viz, Iraq - but it has more successes than failures).
9. Eliminated artificial customs barriers to create the largest single market in the world.
10. Encouraged and, through the Erasmus scheme, enabled students to gain experience of higher education in different countries. And helps non-EU students do something similar, through the Socrates scheme.
11. The European Declaration of Human Rights, written by the UK and adopted by all EU member states. Guarantees democracy, protects against arbitrary arrest and imprisonment and ensures public bodies have to meet decent minimum standards. It's protecting us from our own government's excesses, at the moment.
12. Through the European Parliament, fostered increased understanding of different attitudes. If only the media would report it more accurately!
13. Introduction of WEEE - the Waste Electronic and Electrical equipment disposal and recycling directive.
14. Vehicle end-of-life regulations, which require car manufacturers to take back and recycle their products.
15. RoHS - restriction of Hazardous Substances directive, which is removing highly-toxic metals and other materials from electrical and other manufactured goods.
16. Improved insulation standards in buildings, both private and public.
17. Food traceability - with any luck, we won't have any more tainted food products getting into the food chain.
18. Community regeneration through Objectives One to Six, enabling poorer areas access to funds that would probably not, otherwise, have been made available.
19. Cut foreign currency transaction costs through the introduction of the Euro (when will the UK gain this particular benefit, I wonder?)
20. Having an impact on greenhouse gas emissions. Not perfect, not yet, but much more than any other large bloc or economy is doing.
21. Made the Grand Tour possible once again.
22. CERN, near Geneva.
23. The nuclear research laboratory at Oxford.
24. The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, which funds reconstruction in the old Soviet bloc and in the former Soviet Union itself.
23. European Space Agency - Ariane 5 is a tremendously successful launcher system.
24. The new global satellite navigation system, whose name escapes me - but is controlled by the EU and is better than the US-controlled GPS system.
25. Competition requirements have led to greatly improved telecommunications across Europe and the world; has broken up cartels and forced national governments to open bidding to non-national corporations.
26. EADS - Airbus Industrie may have happened without the EU but it's very unlikely. It's helped the European aerospace industry to become genuinely competitive on a global scale, rather than being restricted to second-rank activities, like regional jets, short-hop helicopters and turbo-prop aircraft. Although the A380 super-jumbo is late and horribly over budget, it is looking increasingly attractive. Even if it isn't as successful as hoped, the A320, 330 and the rest of the Airbus fleet is hugely successful and has helped keep thousands of jobs and high-tech skills in the UK.
27. Made travel through the EU a doddle compared with the past. Greatly reduced border hold-ups and passport formalities. Can you remember when we needed visas to go to France or Spain???
28. Provided a convenient whipping-boy for the sins of our government. 'Blame Brussels' is a handy diversion of attention away from our government's tendency to seek to monitor and control all aspects of our lives. Not at all sure this is a good thing but the media's significantly to blame for going along with it.

29. That's all I can think of, off the top of my head. I could come up with more but I have other things to do!!

The realisation that the British Government is really quite good...

I voted to join the EEC but on the understanding that it was just for the benefits of trade NOT for all that has come since then. I vote for the politicians here in the U.K. to govern me not the bureaucrats in Brussels. I am very proud of being British and I dont WANT to belong to Europe as they seem to think we would all like to do so.We are an island race and not to sound pompous but we are nothing like the rest of Europe they just dont think like the British - nobody thinks like the British with our sense of fair play generally. I dont think that we should necessarily come out of Europe but it needs to be dampened down somewhat.

Arrrr the EU. the home of failed domestic politicians.
With the obvious agenda of creating a EUSSR. Despite the fact that Russia who had the same idea some 90 years or so ago, lead to abject failure of each member not only of the USSR but also the Warsaw Pact countries who were beaten into submission.
All in the best possible (Dark Forces of the Socialist/Communist) taste of course.

So then the Nation State is to be branded outdated is it?
The likes of the USA - Canada - Australia - New Zealand, all of which are the preferred destination of those wanting out of the EUSSR. Then we have Japan, China, Norway etc. etc. all outdated are they?

Please - let individual countries have the FREEDOM to be run by their own people!
More have died globally trying to achieve such freedoms, and more will die when populations once again stand up for their Independence. And all because of Lefty Liberals trying to sell what has been proven to be a failed concept over and over again.
Learn from History or repeat it!
And if any of your guests are of the Labour Party mould - explain why we have troops in Iraq with the Party word 'An Iraq for the Iraqi run by the Iraqi'!
What does the words 'A Britain for the British run by the British' attract?
Replace the word Britain with any-other country for balance!

It is little wonder that www.speakout.co.uk and UKIP are gathering support.
If the Pro EU are so sure of their position - they must agree that a referendum is a democratic means of proving one way or another? Or are they like Lenin and Stalin?
Have a good program!

The EU, and Common Market before it, has presided over the longest period of European peace and stability for hundreds of years. Whatever you may dislike about the institution bureaucratically - and it almost certainly needs reform and more accountability in that area - you have to admit that it has provided a greater sense of cohesion and understanding between the people of Europe than any other previous attempt. Whether the next step is towards federalism is still open to debate. But during the last 50 years Europe has changed greatly for the better and though the path may have been rocky it has been worth taking. Better that than isloationism and protectionism aimed at defending a national wealth, which as far as most rich European nations are concerned, was built on the exploitation of rather than interaction with other nations.

I think we should come out of the EU ASAP. It has not done this country any favours, it is rife with Fraud, they haven't been able to sign off their accounts for years. Neil Kinnock was given the task of getting rid of fraud and corruption and as far as I know, nothing happened! Who picks up the bill? us the taxpayer picks up the bill!
Our fishermen and farmers would be better off, in fact we would all be better off OUT!

Just as villages and towns in England stopped fighting each other in the past and brought some coherence to our country, so we should be looking forward to a united Europe that will be strong enough to promote our shared culture and defend our interests in the United Nations.

It shouldn’t happen too quickly. There must be time, possibly a generation, for everyone to realize that it is in our best interests. And there must also be time to adjust the European institutions and to make them more democratic and accountable. There should be some sort of European constitution - a simple document that everyone can understand.

Regional identity should be encouraged but at the same time the United Nations should be supported and given more power to deal with global problems. As in the past governments were forced to address the injustice of poverty within their own borders, we as a global community cannot ignore what is going on outside Europe.

All this rubbish about europe and corruption. .LOOK CLOSER TO HOME I SAY.
Twisted bananas curly cucumbers? . .
I THINK SOMEONES BEEN READING THE SUN OR THE MAIL ..
Go out and see what its like. Take a trip on a modern train that gives you a seat and runs on time.
And while your at it talk to the pensioners, the sick and the disabled and your see how much More Advanced thay are compared to us . .
Oh, and yes .. WHY DO WE HEAR SO MUCH RUBBISH ABOUT EURO TAXES STRANGLING BISINESS . .in a majorative way THERE NOT. . if that was so - why is business thriving so in europe ??..
(Yes I know Blair and Brown believe in holding down wage inflation here with "flooding" imegration . .
I only hope we dont pay a terrible price for their short termisum.)

Long Live Europe.. I prey one day we will be a greater part of it and drag us UP to their standards.

What has England done for Europe?! Beside always siding with the US and never agreeing about anything?

My sentiments exactly, Sue Smith. I would add that there are moves afoot to revive the Federation. Even as we write there will be "back door" deals being done.

I have read this week about "virtual farmers" here in the UK claiming CAP subsidies, so I can imagine what it tots up to over the whole of the EU.

Younger people seem unaware, or have forgotten, that all our V.A.T. goes to support bloated, unaccountable, largely unelected EU bureaucracy. That's why the UK Chancellor couln't waive V.A.T. in respect of the cost of the Olympics.

Ever wondered what is the total cost of higher echelons' salaries, the cost of summits, the translations, the ridiculous moves of the EU Parliament, the expenses scams and all the rest of the running costs? Lord Kinnock could give us some information, I'm sure. He was one of a long line of people who were intending to sort it out. Hah!

As a devout Federalist AND Monarchist The two can work together) One does not hear of wars between Shropshire and Staffordshire except on the sports fields.

A Federal state of Europe could dispose of these silly border disputes (Gibraltar vs Spain, North & South Ireland, etc.)

We must take a very positive and less jingoistic attitude to Europe. To misquote "Do not ask what Europe can do for you, ask what", etc.

I believe that a Federal Europe is long overdue. Nationalism is out of date. In fact my preferred option would be for the United Kingdom to be broken down into several different member states - and why stop at England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? The North, South and Midlands would be better served as independant members of a United States of Europe. With Fedralism, the British Parliament would be an anachronism too and the Monarchy an irrelevancy. Let us have a President of Europe and let us turn Parliament into a museum for tourists. This could be the first stage in the gradual dismantling of the Monarchy and the establishment of the European constitution. Are there any logical reasons this should not be so? Do we have to perennially be slaves to out of date values, snobbery and sentimentality?

think we shoud be part of europe how would we defend ourselfs on our owne?

For those who think that a Federal Europe is the answer, I give you the United States of America. Each state is fiercely independent and, for the most part, resents the intrusion of a federal government. In other words--a federal union doesn't work. We can, and should work together in an exchange of ideas, technology, commerce, and for peace, but without melting into one another. We don't need to become part of the collective. Let's evolve into a species that celebrates our differences; respecting and utilizing differing ideas whilst working for the common good.

I support Europe as an entity for my grandchildrens' sake, not for my own. Rushing into change is and will be a mistake for most of us are uncomfortable with 'change'. A lot has been accomplished in 50 years - we (the English) should have been in at the beginning not trailing along behind.

We should leave the EU at the earliest opportunity. It costs British taxpayers billions and billions of pounds for the privilege of being dictated to. It is not true that trade would be adversely affected, numerous other countries which are not in the EU remain as valuable trading partners. Outside of the EU we can spend our own tax as we wish, improve our education system and health care, traffic and road infrastructure and improve investment in public transport. And the biggest advantage of all is that when the whole pack of cards (the EU) collapses, as it inevitably will one day, we won’t get dragged down with it.

If we are all one big "happy Europe"how come when trouble hits it only appears to be Britain who sticks it's head over the parapet? All it has done for us is to make us adhere to ever increasing rules and regulations.

I THINK THR EUROPEAN UNION NEEDS TO BE WATCHED VERY CLOSELY. THEY ARE GETTING TO BE VERY STRONG. IF I WERE ENGLISH I WOULD VOTE AGAINST JOINING. TOO DICTATORAL.

I can answer your question in one word NOTHING!! Iam english and proud of it and wish to stay that way.

Sue smith is wrong to say Europe has "decimated" the British fishing industry. To decimate is to reduce by one tenth; Europe has virtually destroyed Britain's fishing industry, not decimated it. But then this was part of the plan by by the EEC, with proposals to grab our fishing areas slunk in at the last minute of the negotiations, and the Heath government either failed to notice the significance of them or ignored them. I would be happier with the EU if our politicians and - more particularly - our senior civil servants were up to the job. But the truth is that the continentals, especially the French, run rings round them. I have heard stories from an American who has been astonished at the ineptitude of British negotiators when he's been over here to discuss deals. Years ago I was in a group of journalists who went over to Brussels to see how things were organised. Without exception, we were appalled at the ignorance of the civil servants representing our interests there. They were supposed to be specialists but we know more about their subjects than they did.

Europe has been the greatest and most successful social experiment of all time. The benefits certainly outweigh anything the anti-europeans can come up with. The European language is becoming predominantly English, for better or worse. In Spain, Children are beginning to learn at 4 years old. Britain should have the euro because without it the banks cream off much profit from unsuspecting customers in charges for currency exchange. My only reservation is that Turkey and the Slavic countries maybe should not be members.

I know people interpret history through the distorting lense of their own biases, but really Ruari McCallion...

The long peace and economic prosperity was built on US military hegemony and with US money.

Without those two things Western Europe, let alone the current EU simply would not exist today.

The rest is expensive detail that can or could have been achieved in the same way that nations all over the world achieve every day without the political union agenda.

A lot of misunderstandings and false statements about the European Union and its democratic structure is circulating.
Fact is, that the Council of Ministers, the directly elected representatives of the member states, have the last say in the Union; they take decisions together with the directly elected European Parliament.

Solidarity between the nations brought social peace and economic and political strength to the Union. European citizens need a united Europe in order to be better equipped to face the challenges of globalisation.

The European Union is a success story and is continuing to be one. It is such a success that there are still countries on the waiting list to become a member.

Mills #4;
As a point of historical fact, the geatest military and economic power in Europe since the second world war which brought it peace and prosperity was not the EU but the US. It provided the seed money to rebuild western Europe through the Marshal Plan, it created tax incentives which allowed major US corporatons to expand business into Europe, created very favorable one way access to its domestic market so that Europe would have a way to sell its products while allowing it to enjoy protectionist tarriffs in its own markets at home, and it provided a military shield against Soviet expansion eastward not only affording it physical security but largely releiving it of the economic burden of providing it at its own cost as well. Since the fall of the USSR, that artificial economic hothouse has been dismantled and moved to China. I think it's time for the US to remove its military assets from western Europe too, possibly moving them east to former Soviet captive states like Poland and Hungary or getting out of Europe altogether.

Europe should be left to its own devices by the US. It is so ungrateful for American sacrifices made for it that it not only rewrote history creating a vast tapestry of lies such as Pope Paul having won the cold war (trillions of US tax dollars spent on armaments and an American standing army in Europe for fifty years had nothing to do with it) but would not even support the US at the UN Security Council with so much as a vote for a resolution when America's own security was of dire concern to it. In fact Jacques Chiric worked against American interests and told the world he wanted to confront America. With friends like some European nations and peoples, America doesn't need enemies. What has Europe done for America? Ambivalent support for the war on terror aside, not much. In the looming economic war for markets and resources, especially energy, Europe will find America a formidable adversary, one it antoganized on its own for no apparant rational reason at all, solely for the sake of cynical domestic political gain of a few corrupt politicians. By the way, Britain should not take America's good will or "special relationship" for granted. It's not that good or special anymore. Britain is on the cusp and which way it goes in politics in the coming few years could very well affect how Americans see it for generations to come.

Those who claim that the nation state is out of date, and that the future lies in emormous Unions seem oddly unaware that when the UN started in the early 1950s there were only 60 or so nations in the world, but now there are almost 200. The trend is therefore very strongly the other way, to freedom and independence.

Those of your correspondents who see the EU is a good thing because of particular benefits they experience are placing expediency above principle, and personal gain above the common good. Why should others give up their freedom to rule themselves so that these selfish tunnel vision people can secure relatively trivial benefits, like health care in Spain or avoiding 30 second passport checks.

Jefferson said 300 years ago "any nation that gives up freedom for economic advantage deserves to lose both - and that applies in spades to Britain in the EU, most of our important freedoms have already been lost, and our economy has suffered massively at the same time. Only a fool would sell his freedom - but it takes a raving lunatic to pay to have it taken away.

So to all the Europhiles I say this - YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO GIVE AWAY MY FREEDOM.

I think most European young people, including those in the UK, want to feel that they are part of an inclusive united Europe without internal frontiers and unnecessary barriers whether they be political, economic or cultural.

There are, and will be, problems to face in trying to achieve this but in the long term it will be worthwhile and must be the right direction to take.

A united Europe is more secure and will be more prosperous.

Nation states are outmoded. Creates huge problems.....alll this flagwaving, fuss about lanugages, in the same category as religions creating chaos, wars, destruction.

I still have`nt met anyone who voted to go into the Common Market. Over the years they have robbed us soft and given us MASS IMMIGRATION,something this country will regret in the not to distant future

The UK is a very poor fit in the EU for numerous reasons. The main ones are related to the radically different historical forces that have shaped us. Never having been invaded by Napoleon, we have a radically different judicial heritage than most of mainland Europe. Having until recently been the leader of a global empire, we have few internal European relationships of any strength. Being part of a global anglophonic community separates us from other mainland European countries culturally and in terms of natural trading and military partners. And finally having an anglo-saxon free trade economy puts us completely at odds with the likes of France.

The only realy question to ask is, why do people still pretend that the EU is "good" for the UK or that the UK is "good" for the EU?

A question I want to put to all the Europhiles that have posted here. If being part of a larger grouping is such a "good" thing, presumably none of you would have the slightest qualms about becomeing a fully integrated state of the USA?

Thought not.

The bottom line is that the EU is a Trojan Horse to bring in leftist ideas and institutions into the UK. And the majority of Europhiles are leftists who want to bring this about.

Anyone wanting to make a genuine and worthwhile contribution to this 'debate' would be much better equipped to do so by having read beforehand 'The Great Deception - The Secret History of the European Union' by Christopher Booker and Richard North.

Published in 2003, it was fully revised, updated and re-printed in 2006 to take account of the failed 'Constitution' and several other crucial matters vital to the National interest.

Blair, in his last few weeks in Office, is now desperate to complete his ten-year-long sinister and covert agenda to deliver this Country's head on a plate to Brussels. He knows his reputation is simply a joke as far as the general public are concerned and therefore he has absolutely nothing to lose(and everything to gain) by going all out for the kill.

Forget lucrative after-dinner speeches, U.S. lecture tours and so on, this man's eye has never once strayed from the Eurogravytrain and the untold wealth that will go with it once he has achieved his objective.

Assuming that the laws relating to High Treason are still on the Statute Book, then Blair and his coterie should be brought to account, before he leaves Office, for any violations in that regard and made answerable to whatever charges might ensue as a result.

Let's hope this will be the European century - seeing an end to the tired flummery of the monarchy and peerage, and transferring real power from Westminster to strong and genuinely democratic European institutions. Let's have a European President and Cabinet running things, with the Commission as the civil service - instead of the Council of Ministers taking decisions in secret and then blaming Brussels if they prove unpopular. Oh, and another thing, let's try and employ journalists with a grasp of European languages, who travel to Europe frequently - so that modern Europe (so different from the picture painted by our self=-serving politicians) doesn't come as a total shock to them (as it was for our press covering the World Cup in Germany!).

There seems to be some, but I suspect a minority who are happy to be a member of an indisputable corrupt club, WHY?
11 years without the accounts being sanctioned by auditors.
Never mind, Russia tried for 70 years before the people revolted, so hang on to your hats in 20 years time, the populations will do the same. Yet it can be dissolved NOW peacefully.

With or Without dictatorial imposition -
IT DOESN'T WORK, WON'T WORK, CAN'T WORK!

Vote for no one who does not state in their manifesto the commitment to a referendum within 2 years of taking office. Any party who is scared of doing so, are scared of what people really think/want.
I will be interested to see how many Pro EU guests lie - and they will have to.

I am a great admirer of European culture but not of a political union.
A federal Europe would have to have every citizen thinking in the same language, to be considered an amalgamation of all the nation states which, clearly, is not possible.
I am still at a loss to understand why the country which has the mother of parliaments, England, has surrendered so much power to Europe.
Last, but not least, I am also bewildered as to why our former enemies have the right to travel
freely in our country but citizens of the Commonwealth, many of whose ancestors originate from the British Isles, and joined us in two world wars, do not.

The UK should get out of the EU~
PERMANENTLY.
It is going to destroy our heritage, our history and everything we love and live for.
There is no value in EU membership for the UK. Only the destruction of all we have lived and for which we have fought!

I think Germany should attack France again, but this time we should just watch it on the Tele.

I have always been a strong supporter of the European Union. My daughter recently married a non-EU citizen. She was asked - by British officials - if she could prove that she had full EU rights. In evidence, she offered the fact that she was born in the UK, of British parents and held a UK passport. She was told that this was not adequate proof and that she would have to have worked for at least six months in another EU country in order to establish these "rights". A solicitor specialising in EU affairs confirmed that this is the case. This undermines my confidence in the wisdom of membership.

If anyone had any doubt about how good the EU was for the UK, look no further than the massively anti-UK open-skies agreement just agreed with the USA and negotiated on our behalf by those nice people in Brussels.

If the massive loser in this deal would have been the French, there is no way that it would have been agreed by the Eurocrats. And that sort of sums up the EU: one law for the French and another for everyone else.

AS I see it : What has the EU. Ever Done for us?, From the perspective of An autonomous England, Britanic Empire..,? Brit. Oversight Relating to THe euro. Teleinformatics /pre www era, Helped create the curent consumer communications environment. The am. Internet., a marriage of att.inc with you. Additional perspectives: The revolutions of Democratic society . The G-8 Industrial Revolution era . The current early twentyfirst centurary geo political situation / re: contemporary eur-asian adapttation to global societies needs. Magna charta and the Era of Revolutional Americanism., democracy and the future?... ok?

All the Snouts in the European Trough in Brussels et al are hell-bent to line their own fat wallets even further.
Switzerland [not in the EU] is still probably the richest country in Europe.
Time to raise the British drawbridge and use the tens of billions of pounds we pour into this European monster on the British people instead.
Also, a 200 mile British fishing zone should be legislated for immediately.
Sadly I predict that Bliar will commit his last act of treachery to Britain by signing us up to Germany's Constitution this June without offering the British people the right to have a referendum.

I do hope that the anti Europe person is as a heavy weight as the pro Europe person in this debate. I say this because everybody knows that the ´óÏó´«Ã½ is corporately pro the European Union .You only have to listen to TODAY and WORLD AT ONE to realise this.

What Peter writes, that the EU costs millions, is not true. The European bureaucracy costs one per cent of the European gross product. Each single national bureaucracy in Europe (encluding the UK) costs, as an average, 40 per cent of the national gross product.
Besides, I think that unfortunately the national State as such is outdated. Every and each Europan country alone is a dwarf in comparison with the US, China, India, even Japan. The European Union as a whole is not. It has 500 million inhabitants, technology, know-how and a lot of wealth to start with.
This could make our civilization (the Europan or Western civilization) last another century or so, maybe before we all become Chinese.

Why so many English people fail to understand the, despite difefrences, we all in Europe share a common civilization, called Western civilization, which is very, very different fronm any other in the world?

If you want to find out what Europe has ever done for Great Britain read books about British Kings and Queens. If you want to find out what the "German taxpayers' money-distributing EU" has ever done...well, need I say more, sure Britain has had it's fair share :)

Having just returned to the UK after seven years of living in The Netherlands, I'm saddened by the negative tone of the question. As one of the wealthier and more powerful states in Europe surely we should be asking what we have given to the community. Also maybe consider how some of the insular views expressed here are viewed from across the channel.

Paolo said
"Why so many English people fail to understand the, despite difefrences, we all in Europe share a common civilization, called Western civilization, which is very, very different fronm any other in the world?"

No Paolo, what you fail to understand (being obviously foreign) is that the British have very little in common with mainland Europeans. Whe have more in common with the Commonwealth countries and the USA than we do with the likes of Portugal, Slovenia and Romania. And to suggest that countries such as Australia, Canada and the USA are "very, very different" and in some way not part of "Western Civilization" just shows massive ignorance of the world outside the EU.

And people call the British insular!!!

Re-arranging the deck chairs on the political Titanic?
Invested too much in this world?
Wasting one's efforts attempting to change this world is better done by preaching the commandments of Jesus Christ, not as Christian churches and their leaders do, but by living one's life as Jesus said, not as the loudspeakers say we should.

I have always thought that joining with Europe was a mistake.So called experts will try to tell us that the great Wiston Churchill advocated it for Europe to unite. He said they should, but he did not include us. We have contributed to the wealth of other nations because of our being a member.some will say look what Europe did for this particular region or that. We could have paid for it ourselves,we give to Europe so that they can give it back,

I couldn’t put my thoughts any better than Sue Smith (no7), but I would just like to add that the EU is intent upon emasculating Britain and sinking it like a soggy crouton into the pit of the lowest common denominator of the homogenised soup of the European Regulatory mash.(Muddled, hashed, bungled and self serving.

I feel totally conned by the Common market promises of the 1970's that I voted for, and I did not give my mandate for what is happening now - nobody has.

It strikes me that Britain's membership of the EU back in the 1970s was probably an essential part of being able to continue to finance the Cold War. The EU brought prosperity to many small farmers and the new markets for manufactured goods managed to replace what trade we lost in the former colonies. Most people ignored what was going on in the EU and got on with their lives as they always had done, then the regulations started.

Since the end of the Cold War in 1989, EU regulations have consistently destroyed once sustainable jobs mostly in smaller companies who could ill afford the new investment required to carry on. The EU is all about the interests of the multinationals not the people and they would never have got away with it during the Cold War. Perhaps all the percieved problems with the EU are basically down to the fact that the Cold War has ended. Perhaps now that the Cold War has ended there is no need for Britain to remain a member of the EU and the resulting false economic growth it promotes.

Whatever happens, without the Cold War no company or state employer is going to be able to afford things like final salary pensions and other perks given to keep the population on side against the alleged evil threat of communism. Perhaps the EU is in danger of becoming just what Hitler always wanted ( but without the racism ), socialists embracing the market must equal almost universal fascism. Perhaps the most important piece of EU regulation is the Human Rights Act, I can't understand why many British people don't like it as we wrote it..

The E.U. Stuck in 1957.

greetings from your neighbour in ireland. i am completely pro europe but have to agree that i would prefer more simplicity and democracy.
The Council of Ministers, Commission and Parliament is too complex.

I have problems with the commission mainly. I believe it should be replaced by a senate.

The proposed sharing of commissioners among smaller states does not fit well with me. also is commissioners are not meant to be representing their nation states then my argument is even more strengthened as to why some countries should get two commissioners

I want a simple constitution for the united states of europe

Paddy
Wicklow, Republic de Irlande

Is it not the case that we can (eventually!) get rid of national governments through elections and change our own laws as required by circumstances and according to the countries electorates' wishes. We cannot do this for Europe. Once a law is agreed it is cast in concrete, however ridiculous. It would require every country to decide to change a law once ratified. Thus, little flexibility or opportunity for change is available. We need fewer 'laws' coming out of Europe and more mutual agreements that would be subject to renegotiation or unilateral decisions to withdraw if appropriate.

Most people I know who had the vote to join he eec voted to join on the basis of economic benefits.
I do not know anyone who thought that we would have laws imposed on us by Brussells. Did we have the chance to vote on the transition from eec to eu?
Needless to say I am against the eu in the present form and want a return to the concept as originally sold to the British Public, removal of trade barriers etc.

Mark Littlewood said in the interview with Martha that we signed up to the then EEC and left EFTA.

The British electorate had absolutely no say in this whatsover.
Ted Heath the Prime Minister signed us up to this mess without the democratic wishes of the British people. A rigged referendum followed, which was worded 'Do we wish to remain in the EEC, rather than Do we wish to come out. Pro European propaganda was pedalled by almost 90% of the National Newspapers and the ´óÏó´«Ã½'s biased it's programmes towards staying in. Thc subversive and classic broadcast was the debate from the liberal Oxford Union. It was the ´óÏó´«Ã½'s intention that the very precitable outcome was clearly intended to sway voters. I was later not at all surprised to learn that MI5 were keeping a watchful eye on the ´óÏó´«Ã½'s
activities in the 1970's.

Heath's action was undemocratic and dictatorial as this hyper macro issue did not form any part of his election manifesto. He signed us up with no consultation. The man was a traitor.

Marthya Kearney should know better, the peace and stability in Europe is solely due to NATO membership. It has nothing to do with the
unelected EU.

Nothing was mentioned about the cost of membership of this unelected club and the inflated prices we now pay for goods on the world market with taxes going to Brussels.

A pattern of trade has suffered and still has not adjust with barely 50% with Europe.

On a final note, FTSE follows Wall Street, not the state of the Euro.

Heath threw away are trading blocks, the commonwealth which supplied us with much cheaper raw materials. EFTA offered us cheap trade with Europe without the terrifying strings.

The con trick worked. History has verified my suspicions in 1973 that Heath had a hidden agenda, The United States of Europe.

The alarm bells rang very loudly for me, I voted NO!

The EU...stuck in 1957.

Nation is better than nature..."eu?!" is a term of distaste at other people...for the sake of bureau verse charge...

Humanity has been many times practically degraded on behalf of the EU...until instead of living in humanity we live in the occasional income views of obedience dreaming self serving imperialists...

The communisms of outcomes focused fatherly understanding are exposing the influencers until they are disestablished and overcast by all our practical knowledge decisiveness and the approaches of working classes..

The EU represents the middle class mental illness of socialist universalism enforced with fear by bizarre thesistic believers and drugs like seratonin dopamine and myelitis disorders...

Their psychiatrists have formed their own European constitution which they pillage to rule with...the mentally ill philosophies of the opinionated?? rather than pluralities of society...

We are fans of a great life....

So we have got our own constitutions which we have actually grown up with all our lives

The UK European Constitution 2007: Every human being can be a fan of who and what he wants to...as much as he wants to

1) Your human life is worth more than the opinions about it.....
1a) We do not respect opinions or the opinionated we respect what we choose to see...

2) Every human being can be a fan of who and what he wants to and join in as much or a little as he wants to as and when he wants to adopting and adapting towards those he is a fan of showing off whatever character he chooses within the boundaries of common law...
2a) Every man is free to show off the wealth he feels whether that is properly accounted for or not...so that we all grow wealthier for being fans of what is wealthy especially each other
2b) To be or not be...any constituency member can have their own bodily and daily constitutions as they want to and they are free to change and experiment with their own but not to force those changes on others...especially sexuality athleticism aims ambitions and brain configurations...
2c) Fans are free change allegiances We see that when fans change allegiances this does not have to be permanent ...and we can be fans of several ways of life and attraction...

3) Man must account for the consequences of his actions when asked to...
3a) Wealth should be attributed more than it is distributed...We all grow wealthier by appreciative accountabilities
3b) All accountabilities are negotiable ....

The EU is just the beginning...if the current French government gets its way. One of the biggest weasels in the axis of weasel Dominique de Villepin spoke at the John F. Kennedy School of Government on March 16. If he got his way, he'd have world government. He wants the US Gulliver to lie down and become a prisoner of the Lilliputians like his own country. A combination of flattery and warnings would have America relinquish its sovereignty and establish a world government under UN control with a UN army to enforce its edicts. He'd sell out Israel by resuming funding the Hamas led government immediately and set a deadline for establishment of a Palestinian terrorist state including Israel's retreat to its undefendable 1967 borders.

The theories, platitudes, and slogans he spouts denies the realities of the world. His vision comes right out of the same French Acadamie which trains all its failed leaders.

It isn't going to happen. American recognizes its real enemies when it sees them and there is no doubt that the governments in control of the EU today are as great a threat to American independence and strength as ever existed. War with France and probably with the rest of the EU on all levels except military conflict is in the cards.

NEWSNIGHT TOPIC:

Re: What has Europe ever done for us?

'The other (side believes) Britain should be part of a completely federal Europe and that the nation state is outdated.'

Not true.

Only recently the USSR (Russia) was broken up into individual nation states.

Don Maddocks
Melbourne, Australia

OK, UK ante-Europeans, Leave the EU! And within a year the citizens, [Oops! sorry, SUBJECTS] will be regretting the move. Keep your monarchy and your unelected peers and your nationalism and your small-mindedness. But please share the ´óÏó´«Ã½ with the rest of us. It's the best asset you have.

None of the above comments should come as a surprise to any of us.
The UK has always perceived itself as an inside outsider in the sphere of the EU.
The reluctant European. An island off the coast of Europe.

Still, at a time of growing socio-political and economic interdependence-can the UK really pull it off on its own?
Norway and Switzerland pretend they do, BUT, they do contribute financially to be part of EU policy initiatives and yet they do not get to sit at the driving seat of the decision-making process.
Off the record, plenty of other Europeans would like to see the same scenario with the UK. Basically, make them contribute financially to the EU budget and take away from them any right to block any decision. It simply would not get better than this and would accelerate policy making.

But, would that be to the interest of the UK?

The volume of myths about the cost of the EU bureaucracy; the unawareness of the economic transactions pumped in the British economy; the trade benefits between UK and the rest of the continent, the jobs and growth that British economy has been enjoying by being part of the EU; the subsidies that it has received in areas such as research, development and innovation should all be addressed. But, does anyone speak about them and if so, who reports on them?

By the way, where is the British government in all this? Has it lost its voice yet again? The EU legislation that is passed, the budget that is allocated and the policies that are designed are all done with the approval and consent of 10 Downing street.

One thing is clear.
We need to debate and discuss further the role and impact of the EU.
The ´óÏó´«Ã½ should foster this debate in a more active manner.

I'd like to say what a pleasure it was to see an honest debate on the EU, for once; a proud federalist, against someone who thinks the EU should be done away with altogether.

How refreshing to get to the heart of the matter! I thought some very interesting new points were made, and angles exposed.

Much better than the typical party-political spin, where tedious sparring and predictable arguments usually mean all miss the main point.

Let's see more of these two discussing the EU in future please!

ARIS - you seem to conveniently forget - The UK is a Net Contributor, which means more goes out than finds it's way back!

When Tony Blair was President of the EU, he said he wanted to make Europe the best place in the world to do business. Except for politically unstable nations in Africa, the middle east, and in the most repressive dictatorships like North Korea and Cuba, Europe is the worst place to do business. Dominique de Villepin lamented that France only had 2% GDP growth last year and said France could do much more to create jobs if it achieved 3%. Actually, it wouldn't matter if it were 10%. All of the growth came from repatriating profits from investments abroad from places like China by large corporations and all of the new investment went abroad. The cost and conditions of hiring labor in France make it absurd to consider investing there. The cost of the social safety net paid in taxes, the inflexibility to fire anyone, 7 weeks paid vacation, and an attitude among workers who are immune to firing that they can be as unproductive as they please with impunity add up to a big sign on France's door which says "Danger, Business investors stay out." A mountain of bureaucratic red tape and regulations only makes it worse.

In the US as in China, India, and other viable and vibrant economies, the best and brightest young people coming out of universities aspire to become scientists, engineers, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, or if they aspire to government at some time, to run for political office. In France they aspire to become middle management flunkies working for government in useless dead end jobs for the security of it. It's small wonder then that a book "Bonjour Paresse" hello laziness would be a best seller there. It's a plan based on experience to survive and climb the ladder of success in French corporate and government bureaucracies by avoiding productive work at every opportunity. This is a symptom of the fact that domestically, the EU's economy is already dead and the fighting over who gets the few crumbs avialable has created enormous social tension where Moslem's applicatons for most available jobs get thrown in the the trash bin as soon as their name is read.

The EU is one more epic monument to European failure paid for by its unconsenting citizens. The A380 Eurosaures Wrecks, among its biggest and most typical brainchilds. Lead balloons, the products of ego rather than intelligence. The EU is one competitor the US won't have to worry about.

How dare the politicians take over every ones lives with With piles of rules and regulations, when it was only ever voted in as a common market. You sell me your Apples and I will send you my pears, so why do they think Any body wants any more than that .The Germans are forThe Germans and the French are for the French and that’s a fact that will never change. It seems that even the corruption can’t Be sorted out. You send some one over here with that specific Purpose and find that the money made is even to good for them.Let the people have a `VOICE` over this thing that is the best thing Since sliced bread. A vote to `Enter` Europe or `NOT`should be taken every 10 Years. We want a democratic Europe that means a`VOTE`.

I totally agree with Rick (post number 82).
Yes, the ´óÏó´«Ã½ is certainly the best thing made in England.
And also I agree that, should England leave the EU one day, the English people would regret it very soon. For economic and trade reasons, to start with. And then because Great Britain alone would be a rather insignificant player in the world wide scene, while Europe would be not.
By the way, I wonder whether the English people disliking Europe are just about the same people who would have England separated from Scotland and Wales. Is it so, by any chance?
It would prompt a lot of interesting reflections in the minds of us the "continental" Europeans.

Answering towcestarian (post number 63):

I didn't suggest in any way that the US and Canada are not part of the Western civilization! Of course they are. So are Argentina, Brazil, Mexico... and many other non-European countries.
What I meant is that the EU would be able to counter the historical decline of Europe, which in turn would bring about the decline of the whole of the Western civilization. Therefore, the next leading civilization in the world would be maybe Chinese, maybe Indian... Now, aren't China and India and Japan and Korea very, very different from our way of life?

Also, I am an Italian national, but I understand even too well that the British people feel they have more in common with Commonwealth countries than they have with Portugal or Slovenia (although I don't think it is entirely true). But the hard fact is that there is no project for the US or Canada or Australia or New Zealand or any Commonwealth country to join the UK in any kind of political and/or economic Union that would resemble the European Union.
So, what's the good of saying the British have more in common with the Commonwealth countries? The only other choice for Great Britain, besides staying with the EU, is travelling alone.
P.S. Ireland is an English speaking country, too. So are Scotland and Wales. But it seems the English aren't too keen on staying united with them, either! They feel they have more in common with Commonwealth countries! Isn't that odd?

The reunification of Germany is an interesting comparison and model for the formation of the EU, a political and economic joining of very different economies and cultures. At the end of WWII, East and West Germany were the same. But under two entirely different circumstances, over a period of more than 40 years, they diverged rather radically. West Germany became a prosperous democratic nation with a culture much like that of other advanced western European democracies. It was physically rebuilt and did very well inside the American economic hothouse and nuclear umbrella. East Germany remained an impovrished delapidated disaster, its people unproductive, not even knowing how to be productive, its factories turning out most worthless garbage by western standards like Tribants, its people barely changed from the Nazi mentality they had during the war. Boorish and socially misdeveloped, they were not suitable for immediate integration into West Germany. After the euphoria of the end of the division was over, West Germany discovered the monumental job ahead of it, to bring former East Germany up to its own standards. The cost in money will be staggering, the enormous social adjustment at least as difficult. Although it's been nearly 20 years already, it will take at least another generation for Germans to get this behind them, maybe more.

The EU which was really created in its current form by Maastrict in 1991 is much like the reunification of Germany on a much larger scale. The problems Germany faced are there in spades with other problems to boot such as different languages and cultural diversity which cannot ever be traced back to a common root even in the long distant past. In addition there is no more American economic hothouse to create a favorable climate for growth, the EU is now a full fledged competitor in the world thrown out of the nest and must fly on its own at great disadvantage. Its technology is not the equal of Japan or the US, its labor far more expensive and less productive and flexible than China or the Asian tiger economies. This is the price to be paid when the decision to unite quickly for political reasons outweighs the importance and impact of the economic cost which would argue against rapid accession of many weak economies. And who will bear that cost? The more affluent EU members like Britain, France, and Germany. And as great as the impact has already been, the Eurocrats in Brussels and their allies in Paris and Berlin are already planning the next phase of bringing in even more impovrished members to swell the numbers still further.

What is the political impetus? The desire of some in Europe, especially in the current French government to create a political and economic bloc if not a military power to rival the US. But the aggregate EU member GDP and other data comparing itself to the US is really only of superficial importance. While there are regional differences in the US, it is a highly fluid society and is relatively homogeneous. The EU on the other hand is made up of widely disparate elements whose needs are often in complete opposition. So for example, where the Czech Republic may need low interest rates to stimulate growth, that might overheat Ireland's economy. Brussels will try to choose a path that will leave nobody happy and congratulate itself that it has done the right thing.

De Villepin's speech was most enlightening and revealing of how the axis of weasel which controls the EU sees itself. Boastful and confident on the outside, it is clearly running scared because it knows that it faces insurmountable problems. Angela Merckel came to the US a few weeks ago practically begging President Bush to make America a defacto member, a partner with the EU just as many were telling Turkey it would never get in because it isn't European. De Villepin reitterated those very sentiments. "We want to be your friend, we can learn so much from you and you from us. We need to cooperate. Think of how much we can accomplish together" Really Monsieur de Villepin, what can America learn from France except how to run a country into social chaos and political and economic bankrupcy?

Since Britain will not hold a referendum to decide as a nation whether or not it should opt out of the EU completely, a lot of Brits have opted out of Britain itself leaving for more congenial and promising places. At least 10% of the historic Anglo Saxon population has left, maybe more. It seems to me ´óÏó´«Ã½ itself all but lives in the US already. Whenever they leave, they're back before you know it.

hi

I do not want to be part of the EU FOR THESE REASON WE WILL BE A STATE OF Europe which I do not want and do not like being told how our laws should be set by some idiots it other countrys whome can not run there own place also will not want the pound to be changed for the Euro its not been taken well by the countrys who have it and the pound is better off than euro any way.

MEP JUST GETTING PAID FOR TRIPS TO OTHER PLACES ON US BRING THEM ALL HOME AND WE CAN DO OUR OWN WORK FROM THIS SHOULD BE GREAT BRITIAN OR UNITED KINGDOM WHICH IT IS NOT HERE SO HOW CAN WE JOIN ALL THESE OTHER STATES ITS RUBBISH AND WASTE OF MONEY MEPS PAYING THEM FOR NOTHING BRING THEM HOME AND USE THE MONEY FOR M o D HNS HIGHWAYS ECT.

THE MIDDLE CLASSES ARE TAXED TO THE HILL AND RICH GETTING RICHER ON US AND FRANKLY MR T BLAIR IS MOR CONSERVITIVE THAN MRS M THATCHER EVER WAS SHE CARED AND WON WHAT SHE SET OUT TO DO THE FAULKLANDS NOT LIKE BLAIR COULDNT WIN A WAR IF HE AND HIS PAL BUSH TRYED THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAN IT PLANNING IS THE RIGHT WAY GUNHO IS NOT GOOD .

FRANKLY THIS GOVERMENT SHOULD BE ASKED TO HAVE ELECTION AS WHEN POOR PEOPLE THAT VOTED FOR THIS FOOL MR BLAIR HE SAID 3 TERMS AND NOT BROWN SO HE IS LYING TO THIS COUNTRY SO THERE SHOULD BE RE ELECTION FOR A GOVERMENT FOR THE PEOPLE NOT CHANGING CHAIRS AT NUMBER 10 CANT STAND THIS GOVERMET COULD NOT RUN A BUN FEAST IN A BUNNERY POLITLY SAID

THIS COUNTRY DOSE NOT NEED MR T BLAIR BROWN OR THE EURO OR EUROPE GET RID OF THE DAM LOT START A FRESH ANY THING IS BETTER THAN THIS THEY WASTE MONEY AND THEY ARE NOT TRUST WORTHY

I COULD GO ON BUT FRANKLY THIS MAKES ME UPSET TO SEE THIS COUNTRY IN A STATE AS THIS KILLING WITH KNIFES AND BOMBING AND THE COUNTRY IS SPLITING UP IF THATS WHAT IT WANTS THEN BLAIR AND BROWN AND ALL SCOTISH MPS SHOULD NOT BE IN THE ENGLISH HOUSE OF COMMONS GO BACK TO SCOTLAND AND WALES IRLAND ECT IF THEY WANT IT THAT WAY WE CAN PLAY THERE GAMES TO AND I WE MY HUSBAND AND I ARE SICK OF SCOTHISH PEOPLE RUNNING ENGLAND
SO IF WE ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THIS HOW CAN WE BE HAPPY IN EUROPE?

YOURS FAITHFULLY

JEANNETTE BARNES

Jeannett -
I'm with you all the way,
Here is a Test, Spot England:-

Withdraw from Europe now!

I think one thing that should be clear by now is that the EU superstate will ultimately be a socialist state. You can already see the beginnings of it through massive involuntary redistribution of wealth which will only get greater, an undemocratic unaccountable centralized bureaucracy which will decide every aspect of life from how many hours a week you can work to how straight or curved your pickles and bananas are in a mountain of rules and regulations. The "rob from the rich to give to the poor" Robin Hood mentality will turn Europe's most successful industries into little more than defacto government owned enterprises as their profits are increasingly taxed to pay for the social safety net all EU citizens will demand to enjoy and which will be edicted into law by the bureaucracy. There will be a cap on how much money anyone can earn, how much net worth of assets anyone can own, how much they can pass on to their children, the state will take the rest in the form of tax for redistribution for "the greater good of society."

The term "equality" in the US Declaration of Independence has been interpreted to narrowly mean equality in the eyes of the law. In Europe, it will mean a homogenization of all people to the same income, same culture, same education, same language, same currency, same values, same everything. Is that the only way Europeans can stop fighting wars, by losing all individual identity? Socialists all over Europe love the EU, it is their fondest dream come true. And like all socialist states, it will fail in the face of blistering competition from rampant capitalism in the rest of the world. It's well on the way already.

Watch as each step in developmemt makes it increasingly difficult for any member to leave. A common currency is a major step. So is the unrestricted flow of people diluting the committment any individual country's population has for its own individual identity or interests. Finally, there will come a law which will set a deadline at which time nations will have to decide whether they are out or in forever. The fear of being out and alone will drive that decision toward the irrevocable superstate.

Unification is a global trend, and trying to put obstacles in its way is not a productive exercise. But there is one more extremely important point. I think one of the main purposes of setting up what was then called the Common Market was to prevent war, and, whilst wars between western states are hard to imagine these days, they were not so improbable in the days the Common Market emerged. I find it a huge achievement that those former inveterate enemies - Germany on the one hand and France and Britain on the other - are close allies now. Those who complain about surrender of national independence are being far too abstract and can hardly explain in any specific terms what they actually have in mind. Being a member of any association inevitably means partial surrender of one's sovereignty, but the EU is a union of democratic nations, and I believe that, for this reason, none of its members has ever been made to sacrifice any valuable part of its independence.
Andrei Skvarsky

I understood that the EU would give us as much economic clout as The US. I am in the US at the moment. A friend of mine just bought a Panasonic Plasma TV for $1299. On researching over the net I could find the same TV in the UK for $1888 (excluding VAT)!!
Where is the benefit of the EU

Andrei Skvarski; the European Superstate which should properly be called the Democratic People's Republic of Europe not get into a war? Perhaps not internally but you can already see the beginnings of its confrontations with outside entities such as China and especially with the US. It is natural that any centralized despotic power will regard an outside entity which does not share its ethic, which is beyond its control, which it cannot even influence as a threat, and the more powerful, independent, and successful it is, the more dire the threat. No threat to Europe's game will be seen as more dire than America.

As Europe begins to increasingly tax corporations and those with large incomes or who are already wealthy to obtain revenues for its expanding social safety net and redevelopment of the poorer members, those corporations will begin to fail as the result of inadequate reinvestment and replacement of its management and boards of directors with political apointees. You can see that happening right now in Venezuela's oil industry which will fail just as it did the last time it happened. Those who have assets to protect or the potential to earn considerable sums in their lives but find they have no way to get earn them or keep them in the EU will leave, many in Britain will go to the US. This brain drain will be seen as a threat to the EU's security and emigration will be restrictively controlled just as in the USSR and its satellites. Competition for markets and natural resources will be lost to other nations the US, Japan, China, India, Brazil. Dominique de Villepin's speech laid bare the entire EU plan for the future. It is one whose values, methods, and goals are an anathema to most Americans. There will be non military war almost without doubt if the EU follows its current course. It's a war the EU cannot afford and cannot possibly win. It will not get any outside help this time when it needs to be rebuilt after it's over, it is strictly on its own now.

Steve Byrne #97
When I lived in France from 1972 to 1974, a 13" Sony TV was about $350 in the US and about $750 in France. Protectionist tarriffs were in place to keep companies like Schneider, Telefunken, and Thompson in business. Unless those companies build their TVs in China the way Panasonic does, how can they possibly compete? Look at the difference in labor cost. Europe has a long history of anticompetitive practices many of which like collusive price fixing are illegal and prosecuted in the US under anti trade laws. As an example, a 1 or 2 percent reduction in the price of furniture at Carrefour was considered an "occasion." In globalization the law of the capitalist jungle is compete successfully or die. Europe has no area it can compete in, no market niche in which it has an advantage over all competition. Not agriculture, not manufactured goods, not management, not technology, not banking, nowhere. And with additional restrictions the EU will increasingly place on them, Europe's disadvantage will only grow worse. Right now the US is murdering European economies with its weak dollar. For example, French companies only make money on their foreign investments, not on their domestic production. It is likely to continue for some time. Even I will not longer buy imported cheeses. I can buy the the best cuts of the finest aged prime beef in the US for less than the cost of Roquefort cheese, and excellent quality of the best cuts for the same or less than more ordinarily priced imported cheeses.

Maurice (apropos #93),

I have taken your test - what is my prize? I followed the link, and could clearly see England. Perhaps you mean a reference to England? Just under the map (four lines down) in large print is the explanation that "England is divided in to 9 electoral regions" and that is what is represented on the map. Scotland, Ireland and Wales each comprise an electoral region of their own, named after the country in question.

It's a map of electoral regions. England is divided in to 9 of them. It states this clearly and in large print. What is the problem here, exactly?

Keith

Europe WAS a big mistake right from the start, all it did was open up our markets to cheap imports and ultimately led to the rise of the supermarket (fine in principle but they detract from the smallholder).. Ted Heath also has a lot to answer for!

What is wrong KIETH you ask?

Who split England into 9 Electoral Regions?
Did we have a referendum in one of those regions with the result of 70+% being against the Regionalisation of England?
Yet - we have Regional Assemblies (as shown in the EU produced map) imposed on us by who, despite the very clear 'NO' vote.

It represents a very different interpretation of the word 'Democracy' to my understanding of it.
Vote against something - get it anyway, and the proposed Constitution is obviously going to be the same under another name.
A 'No' vote means nothing to any in Brussels or this Government.
The 'NO' voter are simply wrong, therefore they decide - this dictatorial status is not good enough.

Dear team,I believe the tone of your question epitomises an attitude now perpetrated by most of the british media that somehow( and cynically expressed)the european union is a flop.This is an all too easy and self obsessive way of looking at this polemic.I do not intend to list the benefits that have been reaped by the UK over thirty years and more but having listened to J. Delors take on our or in fact any new member from the twelfth to the twenty seventh it is clear the stability and growth of these nations is/will be unprecented. The british should stop wingeing and get more involved to encourage reinvestment in manufacturing here which has been decimated by govt policy since thatcher and will catch up with us as it is doing now.We maybe the financial centre of europe but that alone will not sustain us.

Maurice,

I am not at all sure you understand what the map in question represents. The EU-produced map in no way, shape or form relates to anything like 'regional assemblies'. There are no 'regional assemblies' in the areas on the map.

The areas are, simply, electoral regions - that is, constituencies. When (if) one participates in european elections, this is done on a constituency (electoral region) basis. While Scotland, Northern ireland and Wales each are one electoral region (constituency) for the purposes of vote counting and seat allocation, England is divided in to several electoral regions (constituencies) for the purposes of vote-counting and seat allocation. That's it: no regional assemblies. Not a one, and nothing on the map should really have led you to the conclusion that there were, had you read the accompanying information.

Keith (note the spelling, Maurice)

Keith

EURO EMPIRE is no substitute for AMERICAN empire.............

Surely it is "politicians" who wish to have a EURO EMPIRE........
People remember all the empires that have all come to an end naturally or unaturally...
roman
egyptian
lottoman
et al

All empires are politically created for the benefit of the people and friends who create them !!
UNITY is not a strength it is a word that is used daily to encourage people to do things togeather.
People are individuals and not sheep !
Daily we see individuals rights being manipulated to benefit those in power !

The british people do not wish to have another empire but wish to see laws being made to protect individuals and minorities...not as our politicians would have us believe...to benefit all....

DEMOCRACY is but a JOKE when less than 50 % of people do not vote.

For a majority to be represented the govt must have over 51% of all its people.

To conclude EUROEMPIRE is for foolish politicians who see the "power" that would give to the few of them that are minoroty elected to rule.

May I humbly suggest we start talking about a free thinking world empire where individuals rights will be respected.

thank you for this media source to clear my mind.

compton de castro

#104 - John.

Please do, list the benifits EU membership has brought to the former UK.
At the same time, please leave Thatcher out of the equation, if you are to include her, do it after you have described what she inherited from the Callaghan Government.
Then suggest exactly who should invest in what manufacturing.
Thanks in advance!

KEITH (apologies for spelling mistake) I am surprised that anyone would worry about the spelling of a name - however, you have your apology!

The Map shows England in the Regional format as presented by Government for the referendum on the establishing of Regional Assemblies.
Are you suggesting that they are merely a coincidence that the division lines up with Brussels?

You may remember - the one and only referendum held was in the NE. and it returned an emphatic 'NO'.
So why do we now have Regional Assemblies?
Why were the imposed against the wishes of the voters?

Maurice,

what regional assemblies?

Keith

#109 What Regional assemblies?

These Regional assemblies:-

Google 'UK Regional assemblies'.

John Talbot #104
Why should the British People care whether any of the new or even old members of the EU have unprecedented growth and stability all of a sudden? Did Brits worry about the growth of the Polish economy when it was part of the Soviet evil empire? Did they worry about whether or not Czechoslovakia was stable or would break up? Why does that give the British government a right to sign over a blank check to the EU to pay for it without the British public endorsing that check? After all, when it's cashed the money comes out of their account, money they could put to far better use themselves...like improving health care delivery...or buying weapons to stand up to terrorist states like Iran. Good bad or otherwise, how does a country which is supposed to be a democracy enter into such a far sweeping enterprise as the EU which alters its very sovereignty without putting the matter to a public debate and vote?...or isn't Britain really a democratic nation after all...MeLord?

What - No response?

Maurice,

my apologies - i was at a funeral yesterday afternoon.

Although, like most, I do hate to be wrong, I'm not above admitting my mistakes - and you are quite correct, it would appear. (Well, my initial point about the map was correct, but I simply had no earthly idea these 'regional assemblies' exist).

I stand corrected.

Keith

The European Union, or Community as it was originally known brought about co-operation that enabled developments that would otherwise have been almost impossible. However, a socialist model of Europe would value the overall unit with greater importance than its component parts. To maintain individual local choice, an all encompassing constitution would be a significant threat to this flexibility. Communism has been proven to not work in the real world. The local voice needs to have its effect locally, the national politic at national level, the European considerations at European level, and the global concerns at Global level, in this increasingly global community. Let us not ignore what European co-operation has brought us, but lets not forget the dangers of a socialist superstate. Freedom is all about choice, removing personal liberties treats people as insignificant droned clones. Diversity is to be embraced. So lets welcome Turkey into this community and add to our diversity. Why Ms Merkel and her European socialists distaste for an Islamic country is significantly questionable. There's nothing wrong with beer and a fine Frankfurter, but equally there's also nothing wrong with a good massage. Always beware the hypocracies of a socialist. They have only one thing on their mind. It is ethical fascism, and it should be thwarted with better alternatives.

The EU is a runaway Sociaist train.
Turkey in the EU would further hasten the timing of that train wreck!
Compare Islam with Socialism, not a lot of differences are there?

Be afraid - very afraid!

KEITH -

Not knowing is just the way this Government likes things, why would they want the peasants to be aware of exactly what is going on?
They are proven Liars, to the extent anyone can make the accusation that 'Tony Blair is a Liar' with no possible legal action being taken, other than becoming another David Kelly of course.

PS - sorry about your yesterday!

"We are the EU. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

#117 Mr Jones:
"I think that the same can be said of the EU. In terms of the environment the EU is vital for regional legislation."

Are you saying that without the failed domestic politicians in Brussels the Environment would be any different today. Therefore the National Elected Politicians were/are not up to dealing with the subject?

As for Regionalisation (breaking up) of the Country, you seem to be saying is something to admire and go for, well they already have.
Despite the FACT that a referendum said NO NO!

You are right in relating it to Monty Python - they are eating their collective Script Writing hearts out.
Not even they could've come up with the corrupt socialist shambles that is the EU. Especially when such a Union has been tried tested and failed - ie. USSR. and the Warsaw Pact countries.

Well, Europeans I love them all, I love their emphasis on skills, their more laid back style of life, their willingness for a bit of old fashioned quality in a modern world.

Bad thing of course is the useless amounts of administration, but on a light hearted note you have to remember, what is practical to a German is not necessarialy practical to an Englishman! Lets take an example of nuttiness in European Administration namely Sparkasse bank. I nickname it Gringots bank from Harry Potter becuase there are vast amounts of people envolved in shuffling paper and they are all extremely unfriendly and don´t respond well to insults. Now Sparkasse is not a bank, all the banks in Germany are called Sparkasse but for the purposes of adminstration they are each independent and soverign to the town they are in for everything except the use of the ATMs. Recieve a check for Sparkasse Solingen and it can only be cashed in Solingen and not half an hour away in Colonge, pay some money in to an account in Cologne and it takes a week to get to your account in Solingen, if the tax office shuts your account down, you can´t transfer the money to the tax office online oh
no you have to go to the bank, with the piece of paper (otherwise they may charge you another 20 euros to "ring upstairs" depends if they feel like it some cashiers do and some don´t)and then your account will be closed for a further week for your details to be checked by three seperate departments and if you complain about it taking so long "your not the only one with an account here Mr Waldock". Sure it´s great that you can do a bank transfer from a machine but you can´t do a transfer from a machine in another town, you would have thought that if they have ATMs all over the place you can have service machines all over too. But no
and I think I know the reason why, they simply don´t want to lay anybody off, they´d sooner 5 people shuffle paper round than one machine do their job, each town Sparkasse looks and is a castle. It defends the fat controllers huge wage against foreign invasion, from rationalisation perhaps. It employs hundreds of bank managers thousands of staff, Wuppertal even has a 30 storey Tower Block in which to house them all. It´s just the most wasteful institution ever.They are all goblins, just goblins, and if that is a reflection of the EU then God help us!

#120 Hugh - to close for comfort, so it is a case of 'God Help Us'!

Until such times as we are prepared to help ourselves, and God gave us that ability.

I have enjoyed what Hugh Waldock writes (post 120). Very funny.
But then of course every country has some irrational aspects in its social and cultural organization. England is world-wide famous for such oddities. Which usually are regarded as part of British charme.
Anyway, one should also say that Germany, by overemploying, has given jobs to some 20 million East Germany people almost overnight at the time of reunification. Social solidarity instead of pure (and socially painful) economic convenience. And dispite this, Germany has recently come back again as the economic giant of Europe. Quite extraordinary, don't you think? Makes one remind that there are many different ways of doing things well.

Europe will never do anything for us, it is working for Europa and it's own agenda, as are all the politicians who are paid by us to work for us. Our armed forces are being run down as Merkel calls for a european army. Our manufacturing industry is now at 20% and we do not have a single Utility left, they have all been sold off. A German media company runs a council in Yorkshire and has a vast influence on our own media and employment in many areas of the UK. The 'ministry for justice' announced yesterday,is already on Europa's list of member states with a ministry of justice and a ministry of the interior, so why does the government pretend that this is it's idea ? The growth of Bio research centres in the UK would seem to be turning us into an Island laboratory. We should have been friends with our neighbours and not have moved in with them. I wish Europa would ride her beast off into the sunset !

Germany seems to be promoting what it sees as the successful measures that it has brought into the EU. You can understand this approach. However, the solutions it then exports to the rest of Europe are promoted to the rest of the union as tried and tested and indisputible solutions. This should not be taken as fact, but considered with detailed scrutiny of all the options and possible alternatives that are available. Deutsche Bank has always been a strong economic force within Europe. During the Thatcher years, Britain linked the interest rate to the German economy, to devestating effects in the precipitating events of black wednesday in 1992. Always beware of an apparent altruist. It is incredibly rare, especially in the world of business and finance. I hope Germany has not pursued the unified Euro economies with such measures as private equity and venture capitalism. Such an apparently socialist scheme would only go into lining the pockets of the already super rich. Also rather concerning considering the popularity of extensively using private finance initiatives and public private projects to fund the regeneration of many public services, particularly in the NHS. Are we to see the long term effects of these decisions that have been ignored for the sake of short term gains ? Time will tell, but we should always be weary of being coerced into decision making with ethical propaganda. Or for that matter, denied any access to the decision making process. Maybe we shouldn't have taken it all for granted for all these years.

Dear Paolo 122

I have an enormous respect for the Germans and their culture as I have expressed in previous blogs. The way they came back from a situation of total and utter destruction not only of the physical infrastructure but the lack of being able to express Germanness for many years post 1945 is amazing, and how did they achieve this? Through just finding an inner stillness where all the insults couldn´t hurt them anymore gettting their heads down and working so hard that it pulled them out of trouble, tremendous strength, like a pheonix from the ashes.

Having said that it´s not just a case of giving someone a job because you are a socialist. These people in the jobs provide an extremely poor service and are abusive sometimes if you say anything about them, these people do not belong to the fun loving outgoing new happy Germany I respect, they are ultra conservative small minded people who simply cannot
appreciate that things function much better elsewhere in the world around them, they are ignorant of the benefits change can bring, they see people as bank account numbers, they are extremely impersonal and uneccesarialy so. It is good to be kept in check and on your toes by people who can help you improve yourself and know what their doing, but these people don´t.

This is one of the big faliures of the German civil servant industry. Civil Servants by nature in Germany forgoe their legal right to strike and in return it is illegal to fire them. That is why abusive bank staff, teachers that go for coffee breaks instead of holding lessons and so on, and an extremely top heavy university system with little student focus are rife within the system. I think jobs for life are great, but people need insentives to improve themselves and as a freelancer in the highly competitive German Business English Language Teaching area market forces have taught me invaluable soft skills, such as the ability to respond to the needs of pupils and business, tough negotiation skills, political skills, marketing skills the list is endless and these people with jobs for life have never been subject to this pressure, professors bank staff, foreign office staff they can quite literally afford to treat people with contempt. These people need a kick up the backside and to be subject to some kind of pressure for their own good otherwise they will just continue to make everyones life hard boring and unpleasant. This has an effect on the whole German community and it´s so uneccesary. I would like to see German brains in the EU becuase they are some of the finest but not German waste that is all!

Love Hugh

Let me give you just one more example. And that is the sheer amount of talent that goes to waste in Germany.

There is a stigma that is attatched to going to the lowest school the Hauptschule. Peoples destiny is decided at the age of eleven, if they don´t go to a good school they are labelled as thick, unrully basically scum and they are very often the nicest and very often far more intelligent, partiularly in a streetwise sense than the people who go to Grammar school. I want to focus on helping these people and giving them the chance they deserve but you would believe the politcal obstacles and predjudices that stand in your way. In my experience people who are told they are thick, act thick. That is why people I have visited in the home for mentally handicapped people in which my friend works are far more happy, sociable and give and intelligent in their attitude to life than people who go to Hauptschule. Becuase everything is always blamed on the people who go to Hauptschule, they are slackers and scum and have only themselves to blame for their misfortune and the mentally handicapped people are made to feel intelligent, happy, and normal and are not to blame for anything. If you get on the wrong side of the system in Germany life can be very tough in deed. The one thing that speaks for the British system is that everyone is encouraged more or less equally we try not to write any of our youngsters off and we are much less snooty about how intelligent people are. Having said that being nasty to people does sometimes produce people of outstanding charm and quality.

Germany seems to be promoting what it sees as the successful measures that it has brought into the EU. You can understand this approach. However, the solutions it then exports to the rest of Europe are promoted to the rest of the union as tried and tested and indisputible solutions. This should not be taken as fact, but considered with detailed scrutiny of all the options and possible alternatives that are available. Deutsche Bank has always been a strong economic force within Europe. During the Thatcher years, Britain linked the interest rate to the German economy, to catastrophic effects in the precipitating events of black wednesday in 1992. Always beware of an apparent altruist, especially where alterior motives could be implicated in the outcome. It is incredibly rare, especially in the world of business and finance that such philantrophy is made with no political effect. I hope Germany has not pursued the unified Euro economies with such measures as private equity and venture capitalism. Such an apparently socialist scheme would only go into lining the pockets of the already super rich. Also rather concerning considering the popularity of extensively using private finance initiatives and public private projects to fund the regeneration of many public services, particularly in the NHS. Are we to see the long term effects of these decisions that have been ignored for the sake of short term gains ? Time will tell, but we should always be weary of being coerced into decision making and denied any access to the decision making process. Decision making should be made transparent in order to show rationale, and gain public support for proposals. Impartial NGO's of a wide range should at the least be consulted to provide opinions, comment, and general appraisal of the publicly available reports.

Europe has been and always will be a love hate realationship with England. So in the immortal words of one German pop song:

(Europa)
Verdammt ich lieb dich
Ich lieb dich nicht
Verdammt ich brauch dich
Ich brauch dich nicht
Verdammt ich will dich
Ich will dich nicht
Ich will dich nicht verlieren

That means:

(Europe)
Damn, I love you
I don´t love you
Damn, I need you
I don´t need you
Damn I want you
I don´t want you
But I don´t want to lose you!

I think it´s a nice summary and it´s the same all over the continent too!

Dear Hugh (posts 125 and 126 - not to mention your pop song!)

thanks for taking the time to explain. I basically agree with you. When you say that "these people in the jobs provide an extremely poor service and are abusive sometimes if you say anything about them" I can see how deep decades of communist rule have worked on people. I have seen the same thing happen in other former communist countries, such as Albania. People suddenly fell into democracy after decades of dictatorship and poverty and expected wealth to pour down on them from heaven, without ever thinking that one actually has to work to get wealth.

And yet I just wanted to make a couple of points through my post.

The first is that one can see so much bitterness and prejudice in Britain about German people and that's very sad. European Union is all about making peace among Europeans after centuries of wars, and make unity and force where once was disunity and weakness. Don't you think?

The second point I wanted to make is that it's all right to be an efficient, competitive society. But society cannot be ruled by the market alone. Society also has a duty to provide for the less fortunate, for those who cannot compete, for the weak, the old and the disadvantaged. The market rule is not our best friend at the end of the day, if you think about it. Because the market ultimately works to grow the capital, not to help the individual (although it may certainly help the individual in the process). One doesn't have to be a socialist to understand this.
And so, Germany disregarding the market rule in a certain time of its history in order to avoid widespread poverty and suffering and possibly social unrest, is not a bad example at all, I think.

Yes, people lacking good ethics generate enemies. A rich man economically can be a poor man psychologically. Would you rather be a happy philanthropist, or a paranoid billionnaire ? Invest in the best. Free markets for your share of the capital. It's tit for tat. The cunning, the greedy, the clever, and the kind. Are these the horsemen of the apocalypse ? Death, famine, war and pestilence. They're already here, and they need to go. Deus Ex Machina, we all can decide. Don't concede failure until it arrives. A failed principle is a false truth. It's the minority report that falsely condemns. Anything can happen, and it usually does. Once we let others make our choices, we will be losers. "Knowledge is the source of power." Albert Einstein, inventor of General Relativity, releaser of atomic energies. Pacifist, provider, the atheistic God of nature.

The biggest threat to the English way of life isn't the EU, but McDonalds, Coca-Cola and immigration.

What has everyone got against immigration?!