大象传媒

3rd time posting this !
Why is Gavin Esler writing in the Daily Mail today when he is on the Newsnight web-site as a Newsnight presenter not a freelance journalist it's a shame because post Hutton all this had been stopped.
But good Newsnight gets a PR Puff on the back of the licence fee money used to send Esler to cover the US Elections..Double whammy eh ?

Thanks, and no doubt this will be a 502 error message posting

I'm looking forward to Mark Urban's report from inside Gaza. But there
is also an interesting story in the
Scottish press this morning that is
drawn from Menzies Campbell's book
about how he was approached by Mr
Gordon Brown about the possibility
of extension to the Labour/Liberal
coalitions deal in Scotland to stop
Alex Salmond of the SNP becoming First Minister of Scotland. This
raises a number of questions: 1)
if Brown entertained that in this
case, will this also be his UK
strategy if the Tories continue
to make progress in England (eg
after Boris wins in London?); 2)
why did Brown go behind the back
of Labour's then First Minister
in Scotland (Jack MacConnell) to
float this deal with the LibDems;
3)why did Brown approach the UK
Liberal leader (Ming Campbell)as
the Liberal Democrats have a true
federal constitution [as Ming was
very quick to point out] which meant that it was entirely a matter for the Scottish Liberal Democrats and indeed the Scottish electorate to choose their own government and coalition partners or not; 4) is
Brown still pulling the strings
of the Labour Party in Scotland?

I hope that Mark Urban still has a chance to change his report to take into account the horrible shooting of innocent Israelis?.

Personally I expect Mr Urbans report to be slanted towards those oh so brave freedom fighters of Hamas, rather than face the reality that Hamas are a group of terrorists.

Cheers, and as poster no#1 mentions I expect my 502 error message.

(Balen report anyone?)

When in the late sixties and the seventies, obtainable wage rates overcame the traditional feelings of struggle in the working class [white mainly, at that time] the prosperity led thousands of them, whilst retaining their union affilliations, to start to think, join, and vote for, the Conservative Party. Ford workers at Dagenham were in the vanguard. Whilst the situation is now changing, there is nowhere for them to return politically, to find someone to represent them. Why? Because the Labour Party has also changed, NuLabor having been created by its' middle class [largely Scottish] university educated leaders. Tony Blair was far to the right of the position that Ted Heath occupied politically, so the traditional 'white working class' now have nowhere to retreat to politically.

Nowhere do you explain what you mean by "Working Class".

Why not?

What DO you mean by it?

Think the 大象传媒 jornos under the threats of job cuts they decided to turn it to right wing tabloid style journalisms ..play the race card and the whole country will go down not just your jobs hate dewelers

I am a white working class 25 year old and although i have no racial predjudices i am becoming increasingly concerned about the level of immigration in this country.

I believe all british citizens are equal and that we should all have the same rights, regardless of our race or religion.

Why is it then that the white population is not protected from racism.

I live in Nottingham a very multi-cultural area. I am becoming very concerned about my childrens welfare however as it is very common for them to be refered to as 'white trash' surely i am not the only one who finds this offensive.

It is however socially accepted!!!

What is the point of this 'White' season? The "White Girl" drama is described as:

"Maxwell Martin plays Debbie, an illiterate, borderline alcoholic mother of three, who moves her family to a new city to escape her lazy, pot-smoking and abusive husband, Stevie (Daniel Mays)

Debbie soon slips back into bad habits and Stevie reappears, joint in hand, which leaves the family鈥檚 only responsible member looking after everyone: Debbie鈥檚 11-year-old daughter Leah (Holly Kenny).

Leah, though, is struggling to cope, firstly with her alien surroundings (she and her younger siblings are the only white children at the local school) and then with Debbie鈥檚 repeated relapses. Inspired by the example of her classmates and a family of good-natured neighbours, Leah takes refuge in an unlikely place: Islam.

Over time, Leah鈥檚 religious resolve starts to rub off on her mother. "Debbie has always laid down and taken the punches. She鈥檚 very self-pitying. But thanks to Leah鈥檚 example, she has a gradual awakening. Debbie realises, almost by osmosis, that she doesn鈥檛 have to be guided by Stevie, or her mum, or alcohol."

So the point of the "White Girl" programme is to portray the white working class in a negative light and to say that Islam is the answer to all their problems? Is this what the "White season" is all about? Is this the 大象传媒's idea of a joke?

Perhaps one of the reasons why so many people feel so upset about immigration is because they're appallingly badly informed about it. And frankly, Newsnight's report did absolutely nothing to try and help that.

When a reporter is talking to a member of the public who starts spouting spurious imaginary 'facts' about how anyone who rolls up at Dover gets given a free house - then it is obviously clear that this person is confused!

One reason they might be confused is that they don't trust the government - fair enough. That leaves only one authoritative source that could correct these misconceptions - the media. But the media is falling over itself instead to put on screen 'voices' like themselves - unchallenged, and simply repeating the same things.

What is wrong with challenging a member of the public if they're factually wrong? I know you're listening to opinions - but you're then broadcasting them virtually as fact. The endless repetition is infectious - yet baseless.

Well I'm ashamed to be white and working class listening to those morons babbling on about the 'English'

Would love to know how many complaining about jobs going to non-English are actually working and not on sick or signing on.

Polls and statistics mean nothing as you well know.

This all sounds like some very white very middle class patronisingly reporting on the working classes.

Terrible show.

Nick

P.S. How John Guant got on Newsnight is beyond me.

Could someone explain to me why John Gaunt is ever invited on to Newsnight, never mind as often as he is? His and Bob Crowe鈥檚 inclusion on the panel furthered the myth that "working class" (whatever that actually means, as pointed out by #6) people are ill-informed and rude.

The programme was also allowed to descend into a Margaret Hodge attack night instead of an exploration of the issues. Why were there no academics or even mildly informed people invited to contribute?

Also, yet again, just as an interesting feature was set to appear, viewers in Scotland were forced to endure the ever-dreadful Newsnight Scotland. Luckily I watched online, but what of those who have no internet access?

Margaret Hodge has the nerve to suggest that politicians listen, when just yesterday and for the passed 12 months they refused to listen to ordinary folk asking to be heard on the issue of Europe. They don't listen, they twist everything to suit their agenda including todays announcement concerning ID cards, get it in by the back door to suit their own ends.
Everyone is sick and tired of their lies.

What planet is Jon Gaunt on claiming that the heroin is not fueled by Arabs It is a know fact, that 90% of heroin is produced in Afghanistan. The idea that Nick Griffon's comments made him sick are ridiculous please get some better informed guests who do not resort to shouting down the opposition.

I was looking forward to Newsnight providing some much needed context to the Israel/Palestine situation with a report from John Dugard and human rights organisations. It's real pity that this information has not been broadcast; the omerta has now gone on for far too long.

On the subject of white working class Brits, I salute your guests for making a distinction between class and race. Bigots will always find scapegoats, but the lower class does not always equate to lower intelligence and working people know that we are all in this together. Whilst the unfettered free market and mass immigration has helped the middle classes and the SE of England, the rest of us fight it out for the scraps. All the while, the ruling classes studiously ignore the concerns ordinary people, whilst patronising us with slogans such as 'hard working families'. The electoral system is at fault for this disconnect between citizens and politicians. Too much emphasis is placed on a tiny number of constituencies.

Get used to it, the indigenous population have for the last 10 year been part of the Governments Ethnic Cleansing program.
The only 10 year plan they've had that is working!

As for Bob Crow - paleeese.
Everything is down to Privatisation with him, he is a joke on any subject!

Gaunt - close but not close enough!

Hodge - full of it.

Bailey ? - probably more realistic.

I would like to know what Griffen said that was out of order?

Please don't have Jon Gaunt on again - I never thought I'd come across anyone that made Bob Crow seem reasoned and calm.

Denzil I don't think you're analysis is as clear cut as you suggest it is. After all you haven't actually watched the drama yet have you?

The issue is more bad government in pursuit of a largely feminist agenda. Immigration is neither the problem or the solution, as most persons who are not white are as British as the next.

When Margaret Hodge was speaking I thought there was a problem with her microphone. Then I realised it was just the sound of her smugly patting herself on the back.

I watched tonight鈥檚 episode of Newsnight with utter disgust, the fact of the matter is that white British people make up 85.7% of the UK, you are in no way a minority, for gods sake the prime minister is white, parliament is white, the whole damn country is.
Immigrants are taking jobs that are available, simply put. It was Thatcher鈥檚 government that took away this so called "security", not labour. In an increasingly competitive global market, the UK had to specialise. We simple don't have vast pools of unskilled labour like other countries, and can't compete on those types of jobs that favour the working class. Immigrants are not second class citizens; they pay their taxes and live in this country. Simply because you were born here gives you right over them.
Immigrants don鈥檛 steal your jobs, infact it鈥檚 often an unwillingness to take pay cuts that leads to white working class being unemployed. In a free market system, your paid at what the market value鈥檚 you at. Why were the coal miners shut down in the first place? Trade unions simply priced labour out of the market, and the coal produced became less competitive as a result of rising costs. In reality, more labour for the UK is a good thing, it increases our output as a nation which in turn increases economic growth, which is good for all of us. Being born here doesn鈥檛 make you entitled to anything, whether you鈥檙e White, Asian or Black.
Stop moaning, get off your asses and put the hard graft in, nobody鈥檚 going to do it for you. If you鈥檙e unsatisfied with your wages, increase your value in the labour market; through education, training and so forth, these options are open to you. The fact of the matter is, White British don鈥檛 have to worry about wage discrimination, racism et cetera. A pool of a 1000 people hardly represents an entire nation, you guys are fine. Stop whinging and sort it out.

I was looking forward to Newsnight providing some much needed context to the Israel/Palestine situation with a report from John Dugard and human rights organisations. It's real pity that this information has not been broadcast; the omerta has now gone on for far too long.

On the subject of white working class Brits, I salute your guests for making a distinction between class and race. Bigots will always find scapegoats, but the lower class does not always equate to lower intelligence and working people know that we are all in this together. Whilst the unfettered free market and mass immigration has helped the middle classes and the SE of England, the rest of us fight it out for the scraps. All the while, the ruling classes studiously ignore the concerns ordinary people, whilst patronising us with slogans such as 'hard working families'. The electoral system is at fault for this disconnect between citizens and politicians. Too much emphasis is placed on a tiny number of constituencies.

Perhaps S Barraclough could explain why the working people he refers to left the Labour Party once they felt more affluent, thus sending a message to politicians. The politicians received the message and presumably adjusted the party in response. No political party can be elected if it doesn't get votes so in fact while it may not have been the sole reason for the change it must have had an effect just as the Conservatives are now having to change their image.
Shops remove items that don't sell and public services that aren't used wither away or the public complains of the waste of taxpayers' money.

I have just watched the debate on white working class Britain on Newsnight and to be honest there was no real outcomes or clarity drawn from it. While Bob Crow was his usual blunt-headed non-compromising self who refusing to move beyond his own socialist utopia, Margaret Hodge was yet another product of the school of media-trained labour MPs, preferring to scripted answer rather than listen to the question asked. Shaun Bailey (a black Tory) was the only person to give honest answers, maybe because he is black and doesn鈥檛 feel the millstone of political correctness on his shoulders and gave some very accurate answers on race and working class which the other members were too afraid to do so.

However by far the most predictable and blood boiling was John Gaunt of TalkSport Radio and the Sun newspaper. He really comes across as no more that the spoilt and horrible off spring of the Sun's Kelvin McKenzie, probably the most divisive and evil man in Britain other than his master Rupert Murdoch. He purported to be a true working class man done well with money and he's proud of that. No doubt a product of the Sun's thatcherite generation. But he shamelessly used his supposed working class status (no doubt living in comfortable white suburbia) to critsize the middle class arrogance on politicians and aimed his bile at Margaret Hodge by constantly over-shouting her and making cheap derogatory comments at her, which was more the conduct of a school-boy bully who has his prey cornered. He also tried to saddle up to Shaun Bailey as his 'fellow brit' who every bit 'Union Jack' as he is. Maybe so. But that is because his newspaper has newer enemies to bully and marginalise e.g. Muslims! But these Muslims 25 years ago were the black youth of Thatcher's Britain, who the Sun labelled as the evils of society. The Sun newspaper is very crafty and clever and 'going where the grass is greener' and stoking up the fires with its working class readers by giving a very dumbed down, one-eyed view of the trouble facing society and up to fairly recently more pertinently white working class society, in order to enrage your average white-van man into thinking of Muslims as destroying 'our rights and ways' and terrorizing the land. In between, blacks and the Muslim community, it has been eastern European immigrants, gays and lesbian, those 'foreigners' in Brussels trying to take over Britain. All these groups have all felt the rough side of this newspapers opportunistic and alarmist policies over the last 25 years or more. And for John Gaunt to come on Newsnight prophesising to be the modern day working class example is more like the case of a leopard who hasn鈥檛 changed his spots, who exerts his loud mouth and crude personality to childishly have the final say. The whole debate was pretty useless but all it has done is to raise the profile of a mouthy-gob like him whose place really should be amongst the commercially driven trash talk radio stations and gutter tabloid press.

By the way, this comments come from a white working class person from East London if that makes any difference.

I've grown up with working class parents and I refuse to accept the terms of the debate, particularly around race as Jon Gaunt would have it. What this is really about is the culture of 'aspiration' over the last 20 years and its effect on social cohesion. White working class people have been told to not accept their place or their culture and instead were invited to 'change' and climb the social ladder through getting a better job, buying a house or through education. This is completely incompatible with the idea of accepting the white working class as a distinctive group. Labour's policies in the last 10 years have been no more than an adjunct to 20 years of free market policy which has had a huge impact on society. Their effective disconnect with the unions shows people want to be seen as individuals and not as part of a social or socio-economic group.

My parents talk nostalgically about the past where they could leave their doors open and they knew and were known by other people like them. Now they live in a comfortable suburban home with the TV and DVD player and will want for nothing in their old age. Yet, they are insecure about the future and their place in it. It seems to me the source of that lies in the fact they've bought into the aspirational dream. They are better off, but they are on their own. Now in the age of politics where we look for 'meaning' and 'quality of life' they regret it. Like them, we regret it but without fully addressing the cause. Race is a red herring.

Even the strong Asian community are subject to this process. I give them 20 years and they will have disappeared behind private parking and iron railings like everyone else and will wonder what happened to their culture. If you give supremacy to individualism, people become more mobile, communities break apart and that's what you get.

As a child of this I do two tone accents - the educated one and one for the street or when I'm at the shops. Even I don't know who to fully identify with. I do feel the loss of a real community though. I don't go for either the middle class reserve or the dismissive conservatism of the working classes either.

Wasn't it weird that the panellists, and even Nick Griffin, denied that the issue was one of race, and yet the people you interviewed in the community espoused _blatantly_ racist opinions?

The rethink needs to be on _racism_ itself. Why do we keep on assuming that race doesn't matter? It clearly does to these people. They make all sorts of unwarranted inferences based on perceived race, and are angry because they are simply shouted down. They need to be educated into why racial generalisations are meaningless.

The debate with the four guests was so good that it lured me to switch over from Question Time, which was dealing with the European referendum and ID cards at the time, issues that make me switch off. It was a good debate with all sides of the debate coming out.

I agree with the Talk Show host that it was outrageous to have had Nick Griffin on the show, just because he says he represents the white working class does not mean he does, it would be like the 大象传媒 going to extremist Abu Hamza to get his views on every Islamic issue just because he says he represents Islam and Muslims.

By having Nick Griffin on the show it did no favours to those working class people who think they are being ignored, as it just takes the debate into the hands of the racist BNP. And Nick Griffin used the free air time the 大象传媒 was giving him to spread hate when he linked the drug problem in the UK to Islam; he shot himself in the foot though and would have lost the support of those people who thought he would come on there and raise the issues of the working class.

The host should have challenged Nick Griffin when he made that ludicrous and racist comment about drugs.

Generally I think the way in which White season is going so far, with the reports that I have seen from the series, I just think that it is promoting intolerance and racism rather than dealing with the grievances of the white working class.

I watched your program News night tonight and as usual Margaret Hodge was patronizing and not facing up to reality, how can you have a debate when Nick Griffin was excluded? before I start I will Make a few comments on the postings.

Nick wrote, Well I'm ashamed to be white and working class listening to those morons babbling on about the 'English'. He is the Moron first of all its about the British 鈥淓nglish, Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish with people like him you will not have an English identity nor culture like the Scots or Welsh its as simple as that.

Suhail wrote, I watched tonight鈥檚 episode of Newsnight with utter disgust, the fact of the matter is that white British people make up 85.7% of the UK, you are in no way a minority, The fact of the matter is, White British don鈥檛 have to worry about wage discrimination, racism etcetera.

As Suhail said British people make up 85.7% of the UK 鈥渘otice I did not have to use the word white鈥� and yes we are not in the minority but what makes you think white people don鈥檛 have to worry about wage discrimination, racism etcetera.

Well I belong to that 85.7% white British population according to Suhail we whites do not have to worry about racial discrimination get real. Here are some facts I am taking a Race Equality organization to County Court for racial discrimination, I have it on written paper that I was a victim of racial discrimination and that I would receive an apology for that racial incident, instead of helping me the Race Equality organization told me 鈥淲HY SHOULD WE HELP YOU鈥� unfortunately for the Race Equality organization I was recording that meeting.

The Race Equality organizations are now well aware that I have recoded the meeting and they asked the High Court Judge to ban me from seeking publicly which the Judge refuse to do, the Race organization have sent me their solicitors letter stating that they own my recording are demanding that I give my recording and any copies over to the race organization.

It seems to me had I been of a different nationality the Race Equality organization would have bent backwards over to get me justice but then again I am only white and we are seen as second class citizens.

If the 大象传媒 has any real interest they are free to contact me but I doubt that will happen. As white UK indigenous peoples do not get discriminated against.

why have a go at Gaunt and Crowe? They are from the working class and may have distanced themselves (in Gaunts case) but they did offer explanations of how NuLabour have betrayed the working class white population (they never cared at all about the black working class) so it kept me interested and I did not switch back to QT...excellent.

why have a go at Gaunt and Crowe? They are from the working class and may have distanced themselves (in Gaunts case) but they did offer explanations of how NuLabour have betrayed the working class white population (they never cared at all about the black working class) so it kept me interested and I did not switch back to QT...excellent.

I found the debate to be a good one, if somewhat fractious at times, and does show that this is a neglected aspect of debate in this country, and one which we would do well to revisit from time to time. Kirsty Wark did well in allowing people a bit of latitude in putting their views across, but ensuring that people like Hodge were pursued for answers to questions. Not a perfect slot, but the nature of opening up a Pandora's Box like this will mean it will be untidy around the edges - but worthwhile to have done this, I thought.

The film preceding it was very good.

Isn't this survey just a piece of sloppy journalism? I'm not at all surprised by the answers given. In fact, I could've predicted them.

Perhaps a better understanding of under-representation could've been gained by further questions, e.g. Can you name your MP? Did you vote at the last election? Can you name three members of your local council? Did you vote for any of them?

Apathy and ignorance are inexcusable. These attitudes shouldn't be deliberately justified with shallow surveys.

We live in a democracy and we have a free education system. Racism and lazy thinking can only worsen problems and lessen us - as individuals and as a nation.

I found the debate to be a good one, if somewhat fractious at times, and does show that this is a neglected aspect of debate in this country, and one which we would do well to revisit from time to time. Kirsty Wark did well in allowing people a bit of latitude in putting their views across, but ensuring that people like Hodge were pursued for answers to questions. Not a perfect slot, but the nature of opening up a Pandora's Box like this will mean it will be untidy around the edges - but worthwhile to have done this, I thought.

The film preceding it was very good.

I am extremely glad Nick Griffin was allowed to feature on last nights show, for two reasons. The first, is becuase I am pro free speech. The second, and more importantly. It showed Mr Griffin to be the baffoon he really is. He probably did more damage for the BNP last night then anything else. His comments on Islam and drugs were actually quite funny, as he is a joke if he believes for a second that anyone in this fine country would believe that statement.

I say we should give Mr Griffin a big spade and more air time so he can dig his own grave.

I am a British born asian, my parents have lived in the UK for almost 40 years. We have been paying tax and contributing to society for 40 years. Myself, my family and friends all have similar views on immigration, which are probably very close to what the 'white' majorty feels. Everyone should have a chance to express this without being called a rascist.

i am immigrant working united kingdom(england).. and it is clear no one represent me at all in this country.. other being taunted and slam by bbc newsnight rehortric like last night programme.. it is as if labour goverment is making the imigrant powerful and deminising the white people.. you should bear in mind that polish and lativans are also white working class.. it is only nick griffin grandfather was an immigrant himslef... the idea that they are indigneous pple is aburd.. newsnight you messed up last night... thank goodness mr Jon Gaundt quickly repundiated the comments of BNPman about islam... as if 大象传媒 NEWSNIGHT will be knighthood for bring an idiot , callous character like nick Griffin .. how on earth can he slam a religon of islam with followers of 1.5 billion pple and in the next decade four out ten pple are muslim.. newsnight shape up or ship out

I thought the whole debate was a mish-mash of self opinionated bigots who were claiming to represent white people. eg. the bile against Nick Griffin (BNP) who has every right to his opinion although I have great misgivings of his party's value whenever they do get elected locally. Set alongside Gaunt and Crowe his view came over well which surely can't be right?

As many bloggers have pointed out there is a mountain of misinformation about immigrants which was not addressed apart from the usual they are pinching all our jobs and getting free housing and health care etc. If this is true let's see the evidence.

There is no doubt there is a "white Underclass" an adopted idea taken from the American Mid-West. All we are short of are pictures of this British Underclass sitting on a rocking chair, with Hound dog at heel and a clapped out pick up in the drive, and for added effect brushwood rolling down the street.

Get back to this debate with some people who know what they are talking about. Very disappointed in what appeared at time to be a shouting match with Hodge as the Scapegoat.

I thought the whole debate was a mish-mash of self opinionated bigots who were claiming to represent white people. eg. the bile against Nick Griffin (BNP) who has every right to his opinion although I have great misgivings of his party's value whenever they do get elected locally. Set alongside Gaunt and Crowe his view came over well which surely can't be right?

As many bloggers have pointed out there is a mountain of misinformation about immigrants which was not addressed apart from the usual they are pinching all our jobs and getting free housing and health care etc. If this is true let's see the evidence.

There is no doubt there is a "white Underclass" an adopted idea taken from the American Mid-West. All we are short of are pictures of this British Underclass sitting on a rocking chair, with Hound dog at heel and a clapped out pick up in the drive, and for added effect brushwood rolling down the street.

Get back to this debate with some people who know what they are talking about. Very disappointed in what appeared at time to be a shouting match with Hodge as the Scapegoat.

Ray you miss quoted me.

>

It was the people interviewed talking about the English I was clearly quoting. I consider myself British. Please don't call me a moron.

Nick

Isn't this survey just a piece of sloppy journalism? I'm not at all surprised by the answers given. In fact, I could've predicted them.

Perhaps a better understanding of under-representation could've been gained by further questions, e.g. Can you name your MP? Did you vote at the last election? Can you name three members of your local council? Did you vote for any of them?

Apathy and ignorance are inexcusable. These attitudes shouldn't be deliberately justified with shallow surveys.

We live in a democracy and we have a free education system. Racism and lazy thinking can only worsen problems and lessen us - as individuals and as a nation.

We've had this debate before, but it has moved forward a bit. It is always nice to hear Bob Crowe, he is so forthright and so decent - but he is wrong about immigration being rich against poor. It might have been once, but now Nick Griffin is right to say BNP supporters come from all classes of society. That is because for once the wealthier sectors (except very recent arrivals from the working class who are understandably still too busy enjoying themselves) have realised that the working class and unemployed underclass are the canaries in the mine and they are in that selfsame mine - what a surprise! - albeit nearer the entrance where the air is purer.

Ethnic minorities and women who have overtaken indigenous men are starting to realise that they have gone too far and they must remember the Bruce Springsteen song "I'll wait for you if you wait for me". So are the fairly large numbers of indigenous men who have escaped from the working class in recent years, although they do not speak well on this topic, probably because they remain torn between two worlds.

All the same, I fear it is too late to stop the runaway train. This means that the race card will in the end by played by indigenous men, and women, OF ALL CLASSES - reluctantly but all the more firmly for that.

Only wartime measures could stop this - for instance the use of the armed forces to repel all comers whatsoever, and expel all those not here legally. There are many people who think the army should be here, protecting our country and us, not abroad doing Lord knows what. So it is just as likely to be white men as expatriate Muslims who jeer at uniformed men in the street. This is privileged information, not available to pollsters, journalists, etc. But the moment you hear it articulated, you know it makes perfect sense, like everything that has come straight from the horse's mouth. When native men are as treacherous as foreign enemies within, and basically agree with them whilst at the same time loathing them, a country is in deep trouble. Bob Crowe needs to shake himself out of his rut, and take a leaf out of the Palestinians' book. Jon Gaunt should just stick to sport or something - his name sounds Norman anyway, we repelled them long ago. The female politician - what can I say? I suppose she means well. If natives ever play the race card, she will be an irrelevance - and she is doing nothing concrete to stop them.

Good on Newsnight though, for not letting go of the subject, like a terrier with a bone six times bigger than itself.

Newsnight needs some new blood for one thing as Gavin Esler is a pathetic journalist with no idea of how to host a debate, or how to present an even sided fair and honest debate.

By inviting Nick Griffin and John Gaunt on the programme is also an insult to Britain's white population who have real concerns about immigration and the lack of any voice to represent them outside of mainstream politics that has no intention of doing so.

While I didn't agree with some of the racist views expressed in this programme,I feel that politicians would do well to listen to the working class instead of dismissing them as bigots.

Many people are genuinely afraid when they read of , for example , forced marraige,so called honour crime,genital mutilation ,sharia law etc. Politicians and clerics have failed to give a clear lead on many of these issues.The reluctance of Muslim Imams ,in particular, to adapt their religion for the 21st century as is happening in Turkey is turning more and more non muslim citizens into racists/islamophobes.

In my opinion the Government must abandon multi culturalism and put all the states efforts into promoting integration. The first place to start would be the education system. End Tony Blair's mad idea that the way to integrate children is through educational apartheid.Lets have a fully secular education system and leave the indoctrination , bigotry and intolerance outside the school gates. A lot of work could also be done on housing policy to halt increasing ghettoisation.

Finally,secularise the state by removing the clerics from the upper house and disestablishing the Church of England.

The root problem is the intransigence of GSK. Below is an excerpt from McManamy's newsletter of 1/19/07.

"Report 9#1 reported on seven unpublished phase II and III clinical trials that found that Lamictal (lamotrigine), failed to outperform the placebo in each of the studies. The trials in question tested Lamictal across a spectrum of depressions in the acute (initial) phase of treatment, including two for recurrent depression and four for bipolar depression. All but one of the seven trials involved at least two hundred patients.
All of these studies were conducted by GSK, makers of Lamictal, with a view to an FDA indication. Not surprisingly, GSK never sought approval for bipolar depression. Despite this, GSK is running advertisements that say: "Have you taken more than one antidepressant and still feel depressed?" The ads conclude with, "Say something to your healthcare provider."
With seven failed studies? What is GSK basing this on?
In 2003, the FDA granted Lamictal an indication for bipolar maintenance, based on two (published) trials that found the drug delayed relapses into bipolar depression over 18 months. In other words, Lamictal may help keep you well, but get you well? Surely, the psychiatric profession would see through this. Um, well, read on ?
What the Treatment Guidelines Say
This Report reviewed six major bipolar treatment guidelines, all prepared by leading psychiatrists, with input from many more leading psychiatrists. All but one of the guidelines purports to be "evidence-based." The other relies on "expert consensus." In practice, most, if not all, are hybrid documents.
The four North American guidelines give Lamictal an overwhelming thumbs-up for acute (initial) phase bipolar depression. The American Psychiatric Association鈥歴 (APA) Practice Guideline published in 2002 advises: "The first-line pharmacological treatment for bipolar depression is the initiation of either lithium or lamotrigine."
The latest edition of the Texas Implementation of Medication Algorithms (TIMA, formerly TMAP), put out by the state of Texas in 2005 goes one better. For treating acute bipolar depression, the algorithm recommends Lamictal (either alone or with an antimanic agent) as its ONLY first choice.
The Canadian Network of Mood and Anxiety Treatment (CANMAT) Guidelines, issued around the same time as TIMA鈥歴 latest version, also recommends Lamictal as a first option for treating acute bipolar depression, but includes other choices, as well.
The 2004 Expert Consensus Guidelines, in its Patients and Families Guide, advises that Lamictal is "sometimes considered an antidepressant agent" and that "antidepressants treat symptoms of depression."
Exhibit A in the evidence line-up for these guidelines is the one GSK Lamictal study that produced an encouraging result. The reason everyone knows about this study is because this is the one that GSK published (in 1999). All four of the guidelines above site this study as evidence of Lamictal鈥歴 apparent efficacy, though there are two important caveats:

1. The APA did note that the study only succeeded using the MADRS scale as a measure (which happened to be the secondary endpoint) rather than the primary one (the HAM-D). In other words, the FDA probably would have thrown this study out.
2. The editors of the Expert Consensus Guideline did note that enthusiasm for the drug among the 47 psychiatrists it surveyed was rather surprising in light of only one published study.

What about all those failed studies? Nary a mention. Almost. The APA did manage to put a positive spin on one of the failed studies by way of an indirect citation from a review article. In addition, the APA (and TIMA and CANMAT) turned to Exhibit B in the form of a small study comparing Lamictal to Neurontin. The APA also cited an open label study in which most of the patients were on other meds.
Time to hear from the English.
The British Association for Psychopharmacology (BAP), in its 2003 Guidelines, citing "limited evidence," recommends Lamictal as a first choice in the acute phase only for "less severe" depression.
The National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is far less charitable. Its 2006 Guideline states: "The following treatments should not be routinely used for acute depressive episodes in people with bipolar disorder: lamotrigine ?"
NICE cites GSK鈥歴 1999 published study as "inconclusive" for efficacy and "unclear" for risk-benefit. The slow dosing schedule for Lamictal (six weeks to get up to full strength) is also an issue with NICE.
In another section, NICE explains its skepticism for industry-sponsored studies: "Such studies are more likely to report results that favor the sponsor鈥歴 product than are independent studies. This may reflect publication bias or design bias."
Publication bias? Talk about understatement.
Conclusion
In science, the object of an experiment is to prove one鈥歴 hypothesis wrong. In eight clinical trials 藛 seven failures and one partial success - GSK admirably succeeded beyond its wildest expectations.
As expected, GSK was far too modest to broadcast the results. That, of course, is the job of psychiatry.
Which leads to the crunch question: With my illness, a serious depression is not a matter of if, but when. When that time comes, I expect my psychiatrist to recommend the best treatment to meet my needs. This will probably involve a medication of some sort. I do not expect to be handed what amounts to a placebo with side effects. My life may be riding on the outcome and one wrong choice may prove fatal. The problem is, with the best minds in psychiatry getting it wrong, with the APA itself getting it wrong, how on earth can I trust my psychiatrist to get it right?
Reminder
Lamictal is FDA-approved for bipolar maintenance, with demonstrated efficacy for delaying relapses into bipolar depression. As a mood stabilizer, there is also evidence that it helps against rapid-cycling. There may be occasion for your psychiatrist to recommend Lamictal for other uses, including ones that run counter to study evidence. But once again, the problem remains: How well do you trust your psychiatrist?"
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Here is a link to McManamy's web site

The question I'm left with after reading the above is how ever did GSK get FDA approval for Lamictal?

And while I'm at it, how did they ever get a court order excusing them from an FDA directive that they include a warning with each sale of Paxil that it is addicting and very difficult to discontinue?

"What planet is Jon Gaunt on claiming that the heroin is not fueled by Arabs It is a know fact, that 90% of heroin is produced in Afghanistan. The idea that Nick Griffon's comments made him sick are ridiculous please get some better informed guests who do not resort to shouting down the opposition."

Rose (14),

Are Afghanis Arabs?

Get informed yourself first, mate!

BOX OF FROGS

Margaret Hodge - enough said!

Nick Griffin - a good showing. He spoke for a larger number of Britons than many will admit (and this will include many ethnicities an classes. This is not, at root, about melatonin). If the BNP can dump the rabid stuff (real or attributed), it might start doing rather well. Vilification just won't work anymore. If the start talking of forced repatriation etc, they will be written off like Hodge as barking. It's proscribed by the FCHR/Lisbon Treaty.

SSRIs - It's time more people understood that 'side-effect' is not a scientific term. The monoamines (5-HT, DA, NA) go everywhere in the brain, and these drugs are therefore dirty. Age (<18) has nothing to do with any of this, it's just a legal technicality. See the Select Committee on 'The Influence of the Pharmaceutical Industry' (esp. David Healy) a year or two back. This drugs-brain-behaviour controversy of effect size and efficacy/safety runs very deep and is well beyond most people's grasp as it demands a sound knowledge of neuroscience AND a radical change in how we think about behaviour, and that requires one to abandon folk psychology/common-sense (this requires kills in the 'Experimental Analysis of Behavior' which ironically is at the basis of the drug companies pharmacological assays).

This goes way back in 'psychology', and big business has muddied the waters far too much (not to mention making a mess of the research).

BOX OF FROGS

Margaret Hodge - enough said!

Nick Griffin - a good showing. He spoke for a larger number of Britons than many will admit (and this will include many ethnicities and classes. This is not, at root, about melatonin). If the BNP can dump the rabid stuff (real or attributed), it might start doing rather well. Vilification just won't work anymore. If they start talking of forced repatriation etc, they will be written off like Hodge as barking. It's proscribed by the FCHR/Lisbon Treaty.

SSRIs - It's time more people understood that 'side-effect' is not a scientific term. The monoamines (5-HT, DA, NA) go everywhere in the brain, and these drugs are therefore dirty. Age (<18) has nothing to do with any of this, it's just a legal technicality. See the Select Committee on 'The Influence of the Pharmaceutical Industry' (esp. David Healy) a year or two back. This drugs-brain-behaviour controversy of effect size and efficacy/safety runs very deep and is well beyond most people's grasp as it demands a sound knowledge of neuroscience AND a radical change in how we think about behaviour, and that requires one to abandon folk psychology/common-sense (this requires skills in the 'Experimental Analysis of Behavior' which ironically is at the basis of the drug companies pharmacological assays).

This goes way back in 'psychology', and big business has muddied the waters far too much (not to mention making a mess of the research).

Kirsty also seems to like the Israelis quite a lot (tey have their appeal I guess:)

and she doesn't seem to like those who question the Holocaust (at all) much either.

I think it would be very good if Kirsty and the 大象传媒 told us exactly what the Holocaust comprised so that thos of us struggling with some of the pesky details and post-war allied politics can get a better idea of exactly how not to go about upsetting her etc.

President Mahmoud Abbas of Fateh and many others could then go on an Israeli/大象传媒/Policy Exchange/Centre For Social Cohesion/Socialist International/Neo-Con funded social-skills course perhaps?

Although in my experience, such courses are usually designed and run by the same sort of people who come up with programmes like 'Brain Gym' - AND what's worse, they have the temerity to demand that 'delegates' pay!

Denzel - me thinks White Girl is a concession to pre-empt complaints about the series.

I had not realised till I saw Rivers of Blood that turbans were instantly allowed when the protest became violent/ life threatening. Previously, it was engrained in British culture that we do not respond to threat, but we did and we are paying the price; we have enslaved ourselves. As it happens turbans are neither here nor there but the precedent...

Suhail - nothing could be less simple than 'jobs are available'. Your ahistorical and acultural analysis is what fuels the flames. In the same way that we were naive to think that we could ride rough shod over centuries of religious/tribal feuding in Iraq, so too one cannot understand current social problems in Britain without also understanding 19th (18th, 17th, and 16th at least) century British history. Being English/ Welsh or Scot, is not just about buying property and / or paying taxes in Britain but about joining a social club with rules.

Puzzled - the Labour Party was taken over in the 1970s by bourgeois Marxists. I Rocked Against Racism in the 1980s thinking that I was being egalitarian. In effect, I contributed to the wholesale betrayal of those who actually re-built this country in the post-war period. My profuse apologies.

Neil Jenkinson - I thought Margaret was unbearably matronising. What would people be saying if JG had wagged his finger at her? The rest of your post is very interesting. There are two issues, income and culture. Trades people have reasonable incomes now but they will never be Middle class because the Middle class define themselves as being non-manual ('clean'). The race issue is also cultural not colourful and varies with each culture. How different ethnic groups are perceived is really just a consequence of how well their culture meshes with the pre-existing one. We Rocked Against Racism primarily because we thought that West Indian culture was a whole load of fun and we wanted to hang out of windows playing Bob Marley too. Most West Indians don't want this rise in gang culture any more than anyone else does and we should all pull together to bring an end to it. On the other hand, on my estate all the gardens open onto the street and are a joy to behold but the one or two Asian households seem to have extended their properties to the maximum and fenced right to the kerb. This demonstrates a difference between living outwards to a community or inwards to a family. How competitive a culture is, how focused on money, the type of music and family relations... all these things go into the race relations mix. Turbans don't really upset people, they sort of tap into British eccentricism but head scarves challenge our relationship with gender and religion in a way that can only be described as regressive.

there is so much ignorance here, its unbelievable. ROSE- afgans are afgans not arab! get ur facts straight. 3billion has now been spent on the war now. IF the government are looking for a terrorist, go find one, stop spending the tax payers money on destroying other countries. Then maybe we will see a drop in the cost to simply live. comming from a working class background, it kills me to see people working all hours of the day to make ends meat. all political parties are the same with there empty promises.

for example: y put the price up on public transport when they are trying to encourage people to use it more? it's cheaper to run a car!

The problem is there is no other alternative, majority of the members are all middle class and middle minded and it will remain that way. nothing changes.

Hi Edith - how are you? I've had so many posts rejected I haven't bothered for a while. I was just coming off t'web just now when I noticed your post, I can't post much now but I hope I catch you later. W

Hi wappaho - are you sure they were rejected? Sometimes posts just don't get through for technical reasons - but some people's computers don't send a proper message. Also sometimes they get through but they don't seem to, that is why you get a lot of triple postings. Am using daughter's apple mac, it seems to be quite good at communicating. (This is not a plug.)

Am just watching Newsnight now, and have remembered another reason some of those scary looking white boys are angry with and feel betrayed by our armed forces - all that money that is spent on war in Iraq and Afghanistan, whilst their lives "slide out of view" to quote Jarvis Cocker in "Common People" , a quote recycled by The Enemy recently in a hit song, have forgotten which one.

Hi Edith,

This posting business is curious. I too have noticed that a 'server error' does not automatically imply a rejected post. However, I switched to a different computer last week and up until yesterday all my posts went through immediately but now I am back to 'server error' (the post above being the first of these even though that got thru').

Anyway...

I have learned so much recently! Not least that as an idealistic if meddlesome upper middle class young women I inadvertantly contributed to the anihilation (sp) of the old british working class. still, since i married one of them, i am now paying penance on a housing estate whilst my sibs grow ever richer in their 'professional' lives!

England is by the day greedier, more selfish, tribal, feudal and essentially more corrupt.

The political class seem unable to understand how the current situation has arisen but i have worked out the following:

1. the post war working class were by design kept in a passive position. my web designer once told me he felt frustrated when his mother could not challenge what her gp said even though she was confused - we actively created this dependence on the professional class.

2. a quite well understood thesis now is that the mass removal of working class employment in manufacturing, mining, printing, steel, ships etc. created vast and consilidated areas of poverty and demoralisation from which current youth are descended

3. clearly, immigrants are hungry to succeed, i have no problems with that, I would be too if i were in that position but sadly where they are able to mobilise around the right careers the existing working class is still blighted by the helplessness enforced on their culture in the early post war period

4. there needs to be a word to distinguish between anglo-immigrants who integrated and suffer similar problems to non-immigrants, and multi-immigrants who were told that they didn't have to integrate and could in fact get grants to carry on being traditional/'ethnic' (a change over coinciding with nu labour around 1997).

5. something is going on at a very high level because it just does not make sense that we would a)introduce sharia finance and veils to this country when they are not tolerated in turkey; b) we would admit corrupt east european countries into the eu rather than take advantage of the buffering value of turkey (the poor turks. where once they could have been a great ally (sp), they are now more likely to become an embittered enemy after the way we have treated them); and c) that the political class appears tongue tied when it comes to arguing with logic against accusations such as 'islamaphobia'.

6. imagine for one moment that it is true that bush has close ties with the bin ladens and that the bin ladens hold power in saudi. we know bush and blair are close and we know blair needs a job and wants the eu presidency. we also know that blair is entrenched in israel-palestine mediation and that a success there would be kudos enough to secure the eu presidency. we also know that the saudi/middle east hates having a judaeochristian bolthole in their 'patch'. Am I making 4?

***

But it seems to me, after two years of frenetic blogging (and I only do it because I believe I have to atone for my sins of youth!)that we cannot go back now from the journey we have started so protest(ant)ation is quite useless.

Instead, I have started to take pure pleasure in simply reverting to actions of civility, kindness and compassion - little things like giving way to people on the road just because I can and I know it will be appreciated. Like the film 'Play It Forward' (which was a bit icky but I agree wholeheartedly with the belief that positive energy can be spread). Or maybe someone could make a blockbuster movie of The Waterbabies and remind us all that 'do as you would be done by' is a better way to live than 'do as you were done by'? And then maybe Gordon could hold the Britishness Day ceremony at the creek where the book was set - it is a very picturesque place.

However, one facet of my earlier life that I will never let go of is this:

YES MEANS YES
NO MEANS NO
HOWEVER WE DRESS
WHEREVER WE GO (and that includes India!)

It is remarkable how the McKann's and Ms McKeown have exposed the trust with which celtic-norse descendants greet the world. Fiona is a modern day Boudica! What the Portuguese and Indian establishments have told us is that such a level of trust in the community is not appropriate in their countries.