大象传媒

On Secrets:

There is a culture of excessive draconian secrecy. Its only in the last fifteen years that we have been allowed to know MI5 actually exists. That was not a surprise to the Russians who had placed the Cambridge 5 long before.

Does such a secretive culture enhance security or disguise its failings?

The US has more secrets but is surprisingly open and they take their Freedom of Information seriously.

We have a long history of cock ups, collusion with Unionists, and penetration by the Russians - assuming Bettany counts. The recent case of the officer who was not acting on MI5 orders, using his prostitute wife, in the Formula One sting is not reassuring. Documents have been left on trains.

Is it too easy for politicians and mandarins to say "Oh yes we are taking measures" and then do nothing?

How do we know we are failing/ how do we know we are succeeding when there is such secrecy.

Still with a DUP member on the intelligence committee due to his voting for unneeded legislation at the PMs behest the pressure is on!

Surely yesterday's alleged horse-trading to secure Gordon Brown's 42-day vote must be looked at soon, since it cuts straight to the heart of democracy in this country. In essence, Brown was in meetings with groups and individuals who were known to be opposed, and who then voted with him. Those close to the action and in receipt of 'off the record' briefings were telling us that deals had been done. On the record, denials were made.
If the PM was less than honest on how he secured his win in the vote, why should he be telling the truth about eg. his belief that the Lisbon Treaty is markedly different to the EU Constitution, as a reason for denying us a referendum.

Great to see that you are focusing on the Polyclinics. There seems to have been a low level campaign of 'consultation exercises' with very little publicity to try and get approval for these under the radar of the general public.

Very few people have been given the facts here.

Some questions...

1/ Why are private companies, like Richard Branson's, involved ?

2/ Won't this break the continuity of care with individual GPs ?

3/ Won't this lead to a 'taxi rank' service where one just has to see the next available GP, who may never have met you before ?

4/ Will the polyclinics be incentivised to cut costs and increase profits, by cutting drug costs and deterring 'frequent flyers' or the elderly / difficult cases from their books ?

5/ What safeguards will there be that the principle of 'free at the point of use' will not be compromised for, say, asylum seekers ?

6/ Will patients still have the right to seek the 'second opinion' of another GP if they don't think they are getting the care or treatment they need or deserve ?

7/ What will the impact of polyclinics be on people on long-term sickness, on getting sick notes signed, or the management of long-term health conditions, like diabetes or epilepsy ?

8/ Can the Government GUARANTEE that the polyclinics will not be foisted upon GPs and patients that do not want them, and that a veto will be available against transferring to the care of a polyclinic without express and positive written consent of the patients ?

LordbeddGelert: one point in favour of polyclinics: much less chance of another Shipmann.

He single handedly discredited the notion of small GP practices as it literally allows the GP to get away with murder. Its also an impossibility for these small surgeries to provide any out of hours care unless you want to be seen by a doctor who only had a couple of hours sleep last night.

Polyclinics may be TOO big, but small is grossly flawed too.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

ARE WE THERE YET?

My knowledge of history is bunk, but as far as I know, complex human endeavours all blossom and die. Nothing has changed; we are still The Ape Confused by Language, defined by sex, war and money. Even prophets and Messiahs seem to make no difference. Should Newsnight look for the answer? Not 42 but 2012?

'Horse trading' is the hallmark of our parliaments representatives, its their modus operandi, its just yesterdays vote on 42 days' was felt rather more painfully with us watching the events unfold plus the clinging on to power from Gordon was ever more present; his credibility as leader was at stake. All rules of decent conduct are always compromised at such times and was clearly illustrated from the days leading up to yesterdays vote...all thanks in most part to mans natural corrupt condition.... and the need to survive.

Can I be the first to express my shock, surprise and delight about the actions of David Davis - a TORY.

It may be a stunt but my God its a good one.

#5 I think this got pulled.

Its bizarre how much the same statement can get through one minute and not the next.

Rewording the same thing with regard to Secrets I will break it up into two entries to find out what the problem is:

1. As a kid (71/72) I heard an -ex MI5 officer saying "We have got Wilson". Therefore I don't believe the line held by Stella Rimmington that there never was a conspiracy against him. What I heard does not prove a conspiracy but it does determine where I would put my bet down.

Secrets continued on #9.

2. I have been approached by people from the "government" at a leaving do from an IT job and then on the 12th August 2006 at Heathrow where I was again spoken to.

Given that I had told nobody that I had changed the flight times from the 14th to the 12th and the three men were the same government people who had been at my leaving do they had to be monitoring me.


Given I am not a spook/spy/terrorist/criminal thats not a very clever use of resources at such a time is it?

Are these people under control and were they ever under control?

DAVID DAVIS

At last - someone has stepped outside the lie (almost).

So much might accrue.

Holy Cow. What is this David Davies carry on? I know it's always been rumoured that grudges were held over his being passed over for such a late-comer, but is this anyway to position yourself for the day when the tories and the electorate wake up to Flash Harry's limitations? Surely he should have kept his powder dry for Cameron's inevitable rainy days. Having said that, I watched Davies on 'Politics Show' at w/end and wondered why he didn't make that sort of impact in his Conference speech. He ripped up Soppel politely but very effectively IMO.

I am not trying to break a postings record but #5 gets pulled and I break it down into #9 and #10.

I apologise to other posters.

They both get through?

Maybe I didn't say what I thought I said in #5.
It was not offensive.

Are these MI5 types sensitive? Is it the publicity they don't like? Oh no!

By the way in #10 the leaving do was on the 4th August 2006.

Vroom vroom vroom MI5!

Re#7. Thanx for that Cookie. But do we just accept the process reaching yest's blatant display, without asking if democracy is now officially merely a historical label used to badge up the British system, rather than a description of how we run our country?

Re #9. How true that is about moderation G of 1. It's equally weird that it can take 5 days rather than 5 minutes, to decide that a post is too long to be carried.

I think its a great idea! Good luck with it. MArk

"Can I be the first to express my shock, surprise and delight about the actions of David Davis - a TORY.

It may be a stunt but my God its a good one."

Its a goood one. The majority of the British public (who don't know any better but have 1 vote each) support 42 days. David Davis has one of the safest Tory seats in the country at a time when Gordon Brown would be booed down for discovering a cure for cancer. The Lib Dems have already agreed not to field a candidate against Davis (a decision that seems pre-planned).

Davis keeps his seat and gets to falsely claim massive support against 42 days and give Brown another 'humiliation' in the press.

It IS a good stunt, but only if you don't think the implications through.

thegangofone: no. MI5 and SIS are NOT under government control directly. Neither are the police or judicary. Its one of the major strengths of the UK that government does not directly control the people who have the power to put you away for a long time.

Regarding your visit from 'the government' I'll have to take your word that they were who they said they were. The one SIS man I knew had a wallet full of ID cards and usually used one identifying him as a major in the British army intelligence corps although he also had such exciting ID as being an inspector for South West water!

Its not hard to find out travel plans. Lets face it the computers at T5 aren't exactly secure! A 10 year old kid could hack BA's system if they wanted to.

#16

Personally I don't believe the majority of people do support 42 days.

If so then Davis will lose won't he.

I think the remark about the public

"who don't know any better but have 1 vote each"

says more than I could ever say about why its not a bad idea to jealously guard civil liberties.

#17

I have never seen an ID card from anybody - so that comment is interesting.

There are probably three men who have approached me in the last 6 years. None of them ever offered up a card.

With regard to travel plans I am assuming that if people are in an official position between passport and boarding pass that they must be government. My boss used the phrase "government".

In fairness I can't say who they are. I assume them to be MI5 but who knows.

I would quite like them to keep their oars out of my work life and I would quite like a job in my normal occupation now thanks very much guys.

If I can sue at some point for lost earnings I will do. Its quite a big bill.

All I have to say on the 42 day is that the police now have the time for that extra tea-break whilst they hold me. No hurry.

By the time it gets on to the Statute Book we will have a Tory Government who will repeal it, of course, after "they have considered the options".

The economy and all the currrent problems over job losses, bank squeezes and the cost of everything will be more in our thoughts. All this to prove that Brown is a tough man. Politicians need to get out into the real world. Perhaps they will when they lose their seats, filled by new noses into the trough of their expenses and perks.

As the saying goes "Nice work if you can get it".

TAKING OUR MEDICINE

Hospitals, GPs, Dentistry. One gone two to go - is there an overall trend?

Re- Gang's and Peter-S's first hand experiences, it seems that our security forces discuss action taken against Prime Ministers, in front of children; make unwelcome approaches to people at their leaving parties and involve themselves in their travel arrangements, and show round their spurious ID'S. We also know that they leave sensitive documents and computers on trains and in the back of cars, and respond with alacrity to a Prime Minister's
"last call for intelligence on WMD's" which the dogs in the street knew was "wrong". Luckily, they were in no way connected to Max Mosley's sex parties.
What would we do without them?

CAPILLIARY HILARY (the Torricellian vacuum)

Just heard Hilary Benn doing a David Miliband aping the dreaded Blair in that silly speech affectation of glottal stops and lost consonants. Poor Wedgie (he of the shilly shpeech but without glottals) must hate his oiky son's nonsense. I can imagine the sadness of the Miliband clan when they hear him at it. At least Brown is (understandably) not espousing this Blair legacy. He is sticking resolutely to the stutter.

#22

What I would do is get a job! I still remember work.

Big Issue! Big Issue!

Re# 24.
In what way did their intervention mess with your work-life?

Re #23. Was that the one where Hilary Benn was calling all this toxic s****e, "legacy waste" barrie? Strangely he didn't mention that his Govt's policy ensures yet more of this, to bequeath to succeeding generations.
The way in which this affectation ( swallowing the 't' ) runs through this shower is stupifying . I heard that ghastly Cherie Blair doing it in the course of plugging her ghastly book recently. And in the last few weeks, Brown has taken to referring to "consti'uents" and "consti' uencies". No one normal can pronounce it for pity's sake! Why doesn't he go the whole Chav hog and call his group the Labour Par'ee.

ANYTHING BLAIR CAN DO I CAN DO BETTER

I have previously asserted that Brown is desperate to out-Blair Tony. I see his 'strong' stance on 42 days as simply trying to demonstrate his lack of 'a reverse gear', in an attempt to emulate the Master.
Tonight Diane Abbott said Brown made a unique 20 minute phone call to her, attempting to persuade her to vote his way. I suggest this was poor Gordon,again, trying to do a Blair, this time in the persuasion department, in an attempt to match the Great Persuader.
To repeat myself: good governance is dependent upon whole, mature, balanced individuals, as MPs. Sadly, the Westminster, party political, self-perpetuating de-mock-crass-y will never yield anything but a rudderless, titanic charade.
We can only hope this Brown Bear in a souvenir shop, doesn't smash everything marked 'British' or, worse, take us to war just to show that Tony Blair.

#22. I ended up in the Balkans with the TA in 1997 (as a radio operator in a hole of a base in Croatia providing logistics for aid convoys). The SIS guy was ( I think) fairly low ranking and involved in gathering info on the paramilitary bands in the region which was directly relevant for which route convoys went down.

He wore usually wore British army uniform for his own protection, but at the same time wasn't stupid enough to try and pretend to be a soldier when among soldiers. We needed his info and he needed our trust and protection so it wasn't like he was flashing fake I.D in a pub.

My entire experience of the security services was one officer, but he was a decent bloke who did his job well and didn't pretend to be James Bond or 'Deepthroat'

*The whole idea of "SUPER-SURGERIES" in England sound very good on paper, but in reality very bad idea in reality...Doctors are protecting there patients.

*What more can we do on the secret documents story?
A lot more; 1st how can secret documents go missing.

among other questions like that?

*Australia on PM Rudd:::Probably he has the correct attitude to achieve, what he wants for his country.

*Annie Lennox: Congrats on your award.