大象传媒

The Atheist and the Gay Bishop
大象传媒 presenter William Crawley has been crossing the Irish Sea and the Atlantic Ocean to meet some of the 鈥渃limate changers鈥� who are challenging our thinking issues as diverse as science, religion, sexuality, politics and the arts.

Bishop Gene Robinson has a lot of enemies. One detractor has described him as the most dangerous Anglican since Henry VIII. He has a lot of friends too. When he was consecrated bishop of New Hampshire in 2003, so many people wanted to attend the service that it had to be held in a specially converted ice hockey stadium. But few of the 4000 worshippers that day could have known that the most controversial bishop in the 2000-year history of the church was standing before them wearing protective body armour under his vestments.

When I met him recently in New York, Robinson told me that he and other bishops had even devised an elaborate plan to ensure that his consecration would continue even in the event of an assassination attempt during the service. For the last 18 years, Gene Robinson has shared his life with another man -- Mark Andrews, an administrator with New Hampshire鈥檚 state government. But his election as a bishop has triggered a civil war within the worldwide Anglican Communion, and it鈥檚 still not clear how and when the hostilities will end 鈥� or what will be left of the Communion if a ceasefire can be agreed.

All of which is a pretty heavy historical burden to place on the shoulders of one man, particularly someone so diminutive. I鈥檓 only five foot eight myself, but I felt positively tall when the bishop appeared in front of me with a Starbucks in one hand and an overcoat in the other. He beamed as he greeted me, utterly relaxed, cracked a few jokes, then wandered with us to the set with the self-confidence of a man used to the media鈥檚 attention.

We鈥檇 arranged to film the interview in the Library of General Theological Seminary in Chelsea. This is where Robinson studied for the ministry in the early 1970s, where he met his wife (they later divorced), and where he first sought a psychotherapist鈥檚 help to come to terms with his sexuality. It was the perfect venue for a conversation in which I hoped to encounter the real Gene Robinson 鈥� the personality too often masked by a headline or ignored in the cross-fire of a debate about an 鈥榠ssue鈥�.

He didn鈥檛 disappoint me. I鈥檓 used to interviewees trying to limit the scope of an interview in advance or steer the conversation into less challenging waters. But Robinson wanted to talk. He described his sexuality and how he explained to his granddaughter what it means to be gay 鈥� 鈥淪ome boys like girls and some boys like boys: I鈥檓 the kind of boy who likes boys.鈥� He talked about coming out to his wife, who remains a close friend; how he reads the Bible as a gay man; how he and his partner have built a home together; and the pressures he鈥檚 lived with since his election as a bishop 鈥� not least, his struggles with alcoholism and his recent decision to sign himself into a rehabilitation centre.

When I remarked that his was an extremely complex story, he shrugged his shoulders and said, 鈥淚t鈥檚 just a human story. I鈥檓 neither the demon my enemies say I am, not the angel my friends think I am.鈥�

A couple of weeks later, I was in Oxford. This time I was to meet one of the most controversial public intellectuals in the world, a bestselling author whose name has become a byword for atheism. Richard Dawkins is Oxford University鈥檚 Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science, but he鈥檚 better known as 鈥淒arwin鈥檚 Rottweiller鈥�.

His most recent book, The God Delusion, is a sustained attack on religious belief, which he believes is a kind of mental illness. So, obviously, we filmed the interview with Dawkins seated below the chancel of an Oxford chapel, the altar clearly in view behind him.

Richard Dawkins often seems a little irascible in interviews 鈥� a donnish member of the awkward squad. But when he arrived at St Peter鈥檚 College, Oxford (I know, we should have booked Jesus College just to complete the irony), having cycled across town, he couldn鈥檛 have been more charming.

His many American fans are attracted to Dawkins鈥檚 Englishness and revel in his Oxford credentials (many of C.S. Lewis鈥檚 American fans are attracted to him for same reason, often unaware that he was actually Irish). But as I talked with Dawkins before the interview, I was struck by how Americanised he seemed 鈥� not his accent, of course, but his combative rhetorical style. Dawkins was born and lived in Kenya until the age of eight, worked for a few years in the United States before returning to Oxford, and the Richard Dawkins Foundation, like his very successful website, is a transatlantic operation.

If Gene Robinson was open to candour, Dawkins was open to critical engagement with his ideas 鈥� in fact, it鈥檚 obvious that he enjoys having his ideas tested and challenged in a discussion. And he鈥檚 not afraid to revise his thinking mid-interview.

鈥淲hy do you have to be so insulting to people you disagree with? You don鈥檛 believe in God, but why do you have to insult sincere believers by labelling them 鈥榙elusional鈥� or 鈥榤entally ill鈥�?鈥� When pressed on this point, Dawkins retreated and acknowledged that his choice of words was unhelpful and that a favourite analogy of his (that a religious believer is like a man who believes he鈥檚 Napoleon) is an over-simplification. He was also surprisingly willing to acknowledge that science, like religion, is based on faith-like assumptions. 鈥淔oolish consistency,鈥� as Emerson once put it, 鈥渋s the hobgoblin of the feeble minded,鈥� and there is nothing feeble about Richard Dawkins mind. Nevertheless, he assured me that there is absolutely no chance he will have a death-bed conversion to religious belief. That may be so, but he didn鈥檛 seem at all out of place in that Oxford chapel.

The new series of William Crawley Meets begins with Bishop Gene Robinson, 大象传媒 One NI on Tuesday 13 February at 11.05 p.m.