大象传媒

I've blogged on this at . I find it neither rare nor surprising. Many Christians are atheists - you are not alone, no matter what denomination you belong to.

Having a number friends in the clergy (including theological students), I know that life in full time (pastoral) ministry can be at times intensely lonely, on many levels, of which personal doubts and unbelief are one.

The differences in the theologies of the theological institutions and the Sunday congregations have been identified as a major problem facing the Church today. The work of Church of Ireland priest Hilary Wakeman comes to mind here. I think the inability of clergy over the decades to effectively introduce new (and challenging) theological-philosophical thinking to the laity is one contributing factor to the problems described in the main post.

As for atheists in the pulpit? It's fairly normal within my own denomination, where there are no set beliefs among our members. Atheists within my own community are more likely to identify themselves as "humanists", however. The term "atheist" does require some definition. Does it mean not believing in any higher spiritual power, or not believing in the conventional (Protestant Christian) personal God?

How much is "non-belief" actually different belief?

btw, Will, following on from your TV prog, would you describe yourself as an agnostic, theist, deist or what? Or rather not say? ;-)

Odd as it may seem, I'm not going to rush to criticise. If people have been backed into a corner regarding income and a bit of financial security it is understandable that they may just keep on preaching. (I doubt though it is a "trap, cunningly designed.")

Part of the problem is that there simply isn't enough honest communication is most of our churches. We hid behind programmes and protocols and institutions. To be honest there are times when I'd prefer open communication between Christians, Atheists and Christian Atheists (and Atheist Christians?) than no communication between Christians. But I wouldn't much see the point in an eclectic group modelling itself on Christianity, I mean, can't we just talk?

A non-believer presenting 大象传媒 religious output?
Even more shocking than Atheists in the Pulpit!

The clear Biblical explanation of what a Christian is expressed in the New Testament book of Acts, chapter 11 verse 26. The term 'believers' is highlighted as a further description of what it means.It means belief in God and belief in the work of salvation that God has provided through His Son, Jesus.

As an aside, was John Wesley really an Atheist (or at worst an Agnostic) prior to his Aldersgate Street experience ? I wonder.

Still, a former president of the Methodist church in Ireland once told me that Agnosticism was really the predominant world view, even within the church.

btw, Will, following on from your TV prog, would you describe yourself as an agnostic, theist, deist or what? Or rather not say? ;-)

Careful now Will.

Mr Andrews and the Caleb foundation are no doubt watching !

Anybody fancy starting a Facebook group for Will to come clean?

Peter, you have a point. That chap on SunSeq the other week was really quite scary. It is my impression that very many Christians in Protestant circles are unaware of how deeply obnoxious the Caleb Foundation actually is. The BCSE did a very useful article on them (and the main players in the Caleban) a while ago.

As a clergyman I'm not Atheist but then again I'm not a Classical Theist either. I'm sure there are many like me in both the pulpit and the pew, but we don't make too much fuss. Maybe there's a book in this?!

can we not get a thread for the orange order's opposition of the papal visit? I mean it's all over the news and was even the main focus of talkback...so why do we have like a hundred threads dedicated to Romanism and loads for atheists but yet only a couple that have anything to do with protestants?

Maybe Will is teh bizzees?

There was a book published a few years ago where a CofI minister revealed his slow drift to atheism/agnosticism. I think he just retired at the normal retirement age but he lamented how far removed his views had become from those of his congregations by then. The book was very honest and quite touching in many ways as he revealed the many pressures buffeting a CofI minister in rural Ireland.

NDB, if you find the name of the book, can you pls post it to let us all know? As I have pointed out previously, Christian atheism (or atheistic Christianity - whichever you prefer) is not uncommon. We know it exists; what we don't really know is its true extent.

Helio - NDB's recollection, if exact, does not ring any bells with me but he might possibly be thinking of Dean Andrew Furlong and his book Tried for Heresy: A 21st Century Journey of Faith. When the good Dean's views became public knowledge he was not allowed to drift into retirement but was arraigned on a charge of heresy (!) - he resigned from his post before the trial commenced.

You might be interested in this book, even if it is not the one NDB meant, you could get a flavour by looking at . Forget the Christian Atheism, you never know, we might make an Anglican of you yet...

Helio I will try and retrieve the author and title of the book. It definitely was not Dean Furlomg. The book was not polemical in any way. It was a wry look at religion in rural Ireland with the author slowly revealing his drift away from belief.The cover had a cartoon involving a rainstorm because his farming congregation had asked him to pray for rain at one time and he felt that their view of God was so different from his.

Got it. It was by Patrick Semple and was called, "The Rector who would'nt pray for rain" The second volume of memoirs by this Wexford minister who was ordained in the forties.

NDB, thanks - gripping read? Oddly, Parrhaisos is not far from the truth; I think I do have certain Anglican tendencies... ;-)

# 20

O Joy! Now I have only to convert RJB, restore John D, and bring over PeterM...

;-)

# 21

Will have to get the library to order that one up. If the title is accurate it would show how a journey into atheism/agnosticism is not necessarily a journey into liberalism. I can think of one or two CoI priests who would do a rain dance if you asked them nicely - or bought them a drink.

Parr

I'm actually in Zurich at the moment and yesterday actually had a smoke and a coffee while sitting at the statue of a certain Protestant gentleman.

Very interesting visit here. A few years ago, JPII appointed a very right wing Bishop here. The folk said, no thanks, and blocked the steps to the Church where he was to be installed. He eventually ended up in a newly created diocese (just for him) in Litchenstein.

The people decide here, they pay the priests and they make them accountable. If you talk mince from the pulpit, dont do your job - P45. Really quite Protestant. My mate here (a priest) says that the Roman Catholic Church here is not far from becoming 'The Swiss Catholic Church.' My conversion might be closer than you think.

Swissjellybean has a certain ring to it.

Parrhaisos, Acts 26:28 ;-)

RJB, no interest in being a Belfastjellybean? Or do you want a wider colour choice than green and orange?

Parrhasios

#21.

I鈥檓 intrigued I am. I鈥檇 never taken you for an evangelist; perhaps though you take a similar view to a friend of mine who bothers little with pushing his view, 鈥淭ruth,鈥� he says, 鈥渁lways comes through in the end; one day you鈥檒l think like me!鈥�

But look, conversion I get, I even have a theology for it. Restoration I get, although evangelicals are more likely to call it revival (but not if you鈥檙e a restorationalist charismatic, no, don鈥檛 ask, don鈥檛 even go there, put that thought out of your head entirely), but what鈥檚 this 鈥渂ring over鈥� business? Am I to think, Bunyan and 鈥淭he River of Death鈥�? Or, the Jordan (river again)? The Exodus, (wall of water and all that)?

How shall I know when I am 鈥榦ver鈥�, I already read the Prayer Book. Is this 鈥榖ring over鈥� business a kind of Anglican lingo; it鈥檚 already taken me years to learn and then ditch the lingo on my side of the house, I can鈥檛 go through all that malarky, too much to do to bother with that again!

Anyhow I googled 鈥渂ring over鈥�, complete with quotes and found this definition, 鈥淭o persuade; to induce; to draw; to lead; to guide.鈥� Does that capture your intent?

Parrhasios, I may be an evangelical, but, Acts : 26, 25, first four words! (I should probably add that I don't mean to imply that Anglicans are insane) (or that evangelicals are insane) (or that anyone is) (Flip, getting awfully careful)

Speaking of which, Helio, high five for post 24, funniest use of a text I鈥檝e heard in ages, gave me a laugh at lunch time. Had a look through the whole chapter, some excellent material for a bit of text tennis, not so much 鈥榮word drill鈥�, as 鈥榯rebuchet drill鈥�!

Nah - nuke drill :-)

Boys, it's like this. You know I'm right. I *know* you know I'm right. And you know that I know that you know I'm right. And if there *is* a god, he knows that I'm right too.

So what are we arguing about?

Ach Helio - just when you were doing so well! If you're going to become an Anglican you'll have to ditch all these binary notions like right and wrong. Anglicanism is all about nuance, constructive ambiguity, or being multi-faceted, a beautiful word that came up recently on another thread. Don't worry it'll come with practice.

A previous rector of mine, very much an academic theologian, privately saw Christianity as an ethical system and God pretty much as an irrelevance. He was careful always, however, not to frighten his rural congregation with any modern ideas; I remember one particular occasion, an Orange service, where he spoke about "the great doctrine of justification by faith". W&T regulars might have perceived that he delivered merely a definition and a slightly opaque critique but, I reckon, because they heard the right words, 99% of the conservative audience went away satisfied, thinking it was a good sermon.

Use of words brings me to Peter - glad to hear you read the prayer-book! You've no need to learn a new lingo, however - "bring over" was a purely idiosyncratic usage, a sort of conflation of the ideas of winning over and bringing home (as in harvest). :-)

If it weren't for the fact that little rational micro mini-me has thought for a very long time that big macro major-me was, to be technical, a Class A loony tune, I would be getting worried: OT feels he has to reassure me that he doesn't think I'm thick, now you need to make it clear you don't suspect me of being nutty as a fruitcake. Is a theme emerging? I'm just glad to learn that RJB is thinking of going cuckoo - at least I'll be in good company!

RJB - hoping and praying for a good outcome...

Look, you're ALL barking, except me. Will - hooray! The hotel has free wi-fi and the kids have finally gone to sleep! So SunSeq was recorded today? ;-) I'll listen in later...