大象传媒

There was no confusion in my mind as to what she meant on Sunday.

Nick, it does seem that again you are being very forgiving towards those in power.

Ms Smith floated a policy and then had to backtrack very, very quickly once she saw how badly it was playing.

If it looks like a U-turn, it smells like a U-turn and everyone believes it to be a U-turn, then it is a U-turn.

Simple as...

Labour are now so roundly beaten, shell shocked and in full in retreat, that they spend most of their time looking over their shoulder and far too little time thinking through the issues of government and proper policy.

Prepare for 2 more years of this chaotic, shambolic, disarray.

The entertainment value is at least, truly superb.

Carry on Gordon.

It is a measure of how weak cabinet members are that this U turn should have arisen as an issue. Just pathetic. I wouldnt trust anything Labour said any more, even if it were true !!

Another bad headline for the government regarding knife crime and as usual they try to nullify it by rushing out a half baked positive headilne. There seems to be a new "initiative" or 10 year plan every single week.

It is blatantly clear what Jacqui Smith was saying on sunday and for her try and make out she was saying something different is ludicrous.

It reminds me of when Gordon Brown stood up and insisted that he didn't go for an election because he wanted to get across his "vision" and it was nothing to do with the tories surging in the polls.

They insult our intelligence.

Nick. It's clearly your fault. You and "the media". You shouldn't go putting the utterances of ministers on the television because they don't mean what they say, or they don't mean to say what they do, or will pretend twenty four hours later that they were misrepresented by having their own words quoted or repeated in their entity within context.

Anyway, the last time we saw a politician unable to remember what he said last night was Charlie Kennedy. Is Ms Smith "on the bottle" too?

I know what I think will put an end to knife crime within a very short time.

Gordon Brown feels it necessary to read out the names of the dead from Iraq and Afghanistan at PM question time. Well, may I say that the time ought to be extended by ten minutes so that he can read out the names of all those who have been killed on our streets every week.

He is responsible, not directly of course, for the most awful government that there has been in my life time. Nearly sixty years.

Let me put it like this. We ahve invaded Afghanistan. We have invaded Iraq. We now occupy both countries. We suffer losses but the people of those countries have lost tens, if not hundreds, of thousands, due to our occupation. We have either killed people directly or are doing nothing to actually stop the killing. We are mentoring!

Now how can we tell our young people that violence on the streets is wrong. We are committing violence all over the midlle east. We say that one of our soldiers has died without saying how many of the 'enemy' have been kiled. They are not the invaders we are. We are the occupiers and people who collaborate with us are seen as just that, collaborators, Quislings if you like.

So, part of the answer to the problem could be to give a real lead to our young people by withdrawing from Iraq and Afghanistan. The Americans are soon to announce a substantial reduction in troop numbers in Iraq because now they are losing the war on two fronts.

Just like our failed policy over Zimbabwe our foreign policy is falling apart all over the place, to be replaced by? France, who have at least a moral authority which we lack because of our illegal actions.

This government really is beginning to look like a bad Carry On movie.

Carry On Blundering?

Carry On up the U-turn?

Carry On Regardless?

It's plain for all to see after twelve months as prime minister that Gordon Brown doesn't have nay policies; the cupboard is bare.

This is why NewLabour is rocked from one bad headline to the next - there is no story to carry them through. With NewLabour the tragedy was there was never a story in the first place. From the first term promise to carry out the tories spending plans to the reforms that nvere were. It's just a PR machine which is now spinning out of control.

#4 is right. They insult our intelligence. But they don't even seem to care if we realise this, which is perhaps even more insulting.

This is a slight misquotation (of H.L. Menken) but the present government probably think that no-one ever lost an election by underestimating the intelliegence of the electorate. They really don't seem bothered about being caught out "misremembering" and backtracking any more.

Like a confidence trickster forced to tell ever more convoluted porkies to sustain their con, they only care about hanging on until an election (at the last possible legal date, one suspects) and hoping that the Tories will implode or make a major mistake.

What a way to run a country! Truly in office but not in power.

Nick, "weild"???

Shame on you. Beeb standards must be slipping.

Yrs, pedantically etc.

I do think, Nick, that you sometimes blog deliberately to rile us all up.

No one ever presumed that victims would be FORCED to confront attackers.

The general principle and practicality of the proposal was attacked and it appears to have no effect on crime
according to a similar American experiment.

Personally I feel, yes, it's another u-turn by the government but I don't think this is much of a headline now with our current administration.

As Jackie Smith was obviously shown the error of her ways, perhaps now she'll seek the help of experts - both professionals and perhaps gang members.

This is a complex problem that isn't going to be solved by hurrying out measures to suit the demands of the press. It will take 5, 10 or even 15 years to get a handle on so it requires a considered approach.

If it means trying things, finding they fail quite quickly and 'u-turning' who cares? Keep trying I say.

Surely Nick part of the problem lies with the church.

We have this waste of time and effort over gays and lesbians when hundreds and thousands are dying in Iraq, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, Dafur etc and yet the church seems to say nothing.

What I want is for the church to come out and say directly that killing is wrong. All killing! Now, how can they not criticise the government over our killing machine, known as the defence forces. What defence do they offer to us at home.

The streets are running with blood all over the world yet the church remains silent! They must speak out. Forget the fine clothes, the regalia, the wasted effort over bishops etc let's have the church speak out. Or do they agree, like they did in the Great War with all the death and mayhem. Speak now churchmen, and women, because your silence is deafening over the real issues of today.

Ask the questions Nick, don't let these people set the agenda. Ask the proper questions and point out the awful truth that a lot of the church is an absolute waste of space.

By the way, Nick, I agree with your last paragraph wholeheartedly '...a belated attempt to clear up the important confusion....'.

Actually, talking specifically on original plan, I spend a lot of time in hospital (not because I'm stabbed on a regular basis) and can't be bothered with visitors at the best of times. However, the thought of some violent thug coming to visit me - well, I think I would find it dreadfully inconvenient to say the least!

If I had been stabbed, lying in hospital and the nurse said, "do you mind if we bring the guy who knifed you in to see his handy work?" I would have an apoplectic seizure and probably never recover.

It wasn't a U-turn, it was a backtrack.

If she had backtracked any faster she would have reversed up the backbenches, through the wall and presently be spashing about trying not to drown in the Thames.

Nick

Yet again the government say something that everyone understands to mean one thing; only later to be redefined to mean something else entirely.

The government never tell 'lies' do they, they meerly redefine reality.

Unfortunately for the public, those with privalaged access (such as journalists) no longer see it as their duty to properly challenge such duplicity.

I can see that admitting that the utterances of ministers are worthless would be difficult for journalists such as yourself, as you would have nothing to write.

I just wanted to point out the typing error in the above. It's should be "wield a knife". Apart from that I am surprised Jacquie Smith chose a "knee jerk" reaction to the recent spate of fatal stabbings among young people.
The recent tragedies are evidence of a lack of dicipline and direction in social groups and families. Young people need plenty of positive direction for their energies and I don't think a punitive approach is necessarily the answer, nor shock tactics.
The young of this country have its future in their hands. It is up to all of us to support any positive steps that can be taken to halt the current spate of knife tragedies among a small proportion of them.
No MP would support knife crime, so all could co-operate to find ways of halting it.

The problem now is that The Government is so media driven and 'sparkling new initiative' led that they fail to prepare properly for any announcement that they make. It begs the question 'Who on earth is advising all these Ministers?'. Whoever it is they aren't doing their job very well to say the least. The knee jerk response to six stabbings in a day was ill thought out and bound to be u turned at the earliest possible opportunity. It's a shambles!

#12 (TAG) whilst you put it quite vociferously, I think many church men and women would be happy to agree to your wishes and say that killing is wrong, although neither the church, christianity and the bible are consistent on this.

Fairly early on in the bible you can find justification for stoning to death those who work on the sabbath (Exodus 35:2). You may be hard pressed to find many bible literalists who think this a good idea although you will find plenty who have found justification for the death penalty in two short passages of the whole bible. I think there may even be some who would like to see homosexuality punished with death.

In my opinion, we should leave it to the experts..... I don't think many involved in knife/gun crime would care what the majority of Christians thought.

You're wrong Nick, it's a blatant U-turn, it's right there in the text you quoted. Why won't the government ever listen? What we need is:

A mandatory sentence

Cut off all benefits

After the first few convictions the crime rate would plummet. Why won't they do this? Because these degenerates are Labour's core vote. Labour seem happy to sacrifice people's lives so that they can (try to) win the next General Election.

#14 (doctorbreezy), I can see why you're a doctor - you obviously have a very good understanding of patients!

It doesnt really matter which version Jokey Smite meant, Neither will work as the knife users,weilders, carriers do not have a conscience.
The cause is simple, authority has been eroded from the very beginning in schools by the namby pamby do-gooders.
These people have no respect for any authority whether it be their parents teachers the police or anyone else.
There is a generation or two out their now that have had this attitude some of these kids with knives are now third generation anti-authoritarians.
The root of this problem started in the late 70's so it isnt a single party issue. But we are all duty bound to tell politico's like Jokey Smite when her plans are tripe. And she should be duty bound to actually come up with a plan that stands a little more chance than a whelk in a supernova

Not a u-turn? Why is it that every other media outlet is saying that it is a u-turn. Nick, you are now so blatant in your support of the government that you are no longer objective, and are losing any remaining credibility. Such a shame, as you once appeared to be a decent journalist.

Half baked? It isn't even that! Jacqui Smith doesn't need an opposition party to condemn yet another ill thought out, unworkable and plain idiotic scheme. The electorate can see for themselves the sheer stupidity of the latest Labour Party initiative. Her words to Adam Boulton were unambiguous. Only now, in the light of even more amateurish presentation does this woeful Home Secretary wriggle like a worm on a hook.
A half baked idea from this shambles of an administration would be progress indeed!

Nick
If the Tories had made a u-turn like this you would have torn them to shreds but because it is the government you just shrug your shoulders. Time for some even handed reporting or your removal from the job! Another example of muddled government thinking yesterday, which has been buried by the media, is the Home Office saying that illegal immigrants who have been deported might be allowed back if they repay the cost of their deportation. What is your spin on that?

It's pointless expecting thugs to feel remorse if they viewed their victims. As I've said before, elsewhere, they are like those sadists who go in for dog fights, blood and violence only excite them. If I was in hospital and the perpetrator came to visit me, I hope I would have the strength to conceal a dirty knife under the bedclothes and poke his/her eyes out. Failing that, a full bedpan or urinal thrown right on target. Actually, I'd like to use the second weapon on any government ministers or officials who accompanied teh criminal. Preferably in full view of news cameras!

I've said it before and I'll say it again

Jacqui Smith is out of her depth
As is Gordon

If it wasn't so tragic for the UK it would be funny.

What are the odds on Gordon still being in power by Christmas?

Nick

There is a stark issue - irrespective of whichever specific political issue happens to be involved.

It is the unwillingness (or it is inability?) to admit the truth when something said or done earlier turns out to be embarrassing or inconvenient - even in the face of incontravertible evidence.

In this case we have Jaqui Smith on camera agreeing that one of her proposals is " -- that people caught carrying knives should be taken to see people in hospital who have been stabbed - - " then denying she ever said it.

On the road fund licence issue, we have the PM on camera saying that most people will be better off - then refusing to acknowledge he said it when his own Government's data shows it to be wrong.

On the Scottish independence referendum issue, we have Wendy Alexander on camera calling for one and Gordon Brown saying she that's not what she said.

Quite extraordinary behaviour, well beyond "spin".

We seem to have come to the point where blatant, brass-necked denial of the truth is seen as a lesser evil than any hint of a u-turn however small or an admission of getting something wrong when answering a question.

I'm not sure what suffers the most in terms of the reputation of the individual concerned - integrity or judgment.

To be fair, it might be that psychological thing, cognitive dissonance. I didn't realise, though that it was an infectious and/or group condition.

Nick -
I assume your use of the phrase "important confusion" is ironic - but still, you seem to see more difference between the two descriptions than I do.

Almost as disturbing (to me) is JS's use of the word "served" instead of say) "treated".
So, hospitals have "customers" now I suppose - I wonder how long before schools and prisons have them too.

Or even governments...so we can take them back if they don't work.

SeB

6 T A Griffin, it seems to me that your just about young enough to be accepted into the ranks of the insurgents both in Iraq and Afghanistan you need to jump on a fast plane to Iraq where most of you sympathies lie .
Then when you have sorted that situation out you could move on to Afganistan and hand out gifts to the taliban while their preventing women and young girls from having any schooling or any human rights, Please go soon, as your anti British rantings are beginning to p**s me and many others off.

#30 (grandantidote), whilst I didn't quite understand the point 6 was making, my intuition was telling me he/she was voicing frustration at decisions made by our current administration - perhaps stemming from the misleading information given as a reason to go to War, and of course, the subsequent cost of those wars in lives.

Personally, I would try not to confuse that frustration with a desire to become an insurgent fighting our own troops in a foreign conflict. The message from 6, if I'm correct, was essentially one of peace.

I noticed yesterday that you appeared very resentful towards the Thatcher administration (a feeling I share with you). On that basis, did you go and join the Argentine army and fight in the Falklands?

ConManDave

"I work at the 大象传媒 and can tell you that a high level editorial decision was taken sometime yesterday to completely ignore the thousands of emails and phone calls to the Beeb, from doctors and others, protesting vehemently about Smiths plan to take knife offenders into casualty wards..."

Nick, Guido has your ticket well and truly punched. Why are you trying to pretend that this was NOT a government U-turn? Do you want the 大象传媒 to lose its licence fee as soon as the Tories get in....?

Can somebody point me to the evidence that Smith said something different to her comments on Breakfast this morning?

Looks to me like a typical sequence of events - govt brief press - press misunderstand what they've been told and print a load of tripe - govt then have to go around telling people what they really said - press then interpret that as U-turn .

@34

As I said in a post earlier, It doesn't really matter which version is correct, the yoofs wiv nives aint got no conscience.

#34 jimbrant

Are you having a laugh ?

Go to the Sky News Web site and watch her interview with Adam Boulton then compare that to any of her subsquent on camera interviews.

There is an issue here, quite separate from the knives issue ie
unwillingness or inabilty to admit that she inadvertently said something other than she meant to say or that she said something which she now wishes to change.

She has chosen the "third way" ie denial in the face of incontravertible evidence. God knows why.

#28

"To be fair, it might be that psychological thing, cognitive dissonance."

Would that it was. All the evidence (including but not limited to the examples you quote) suggests that this is a deliberate and sustained tactic.

I fear the government and their advisers have concluded that:

a) people's memories are too short to remember their misleading and incorrect statements; or

b) they are so disillusioned by being repeatedly mislead that they now expect all political statements to be spin and mendacity, so don't particularly hold this against them; or

c) both the above.

Their strategy seems to be merely to get newspaper headlines by making new announcements every few days, appear busy until the next election without actually doing anything, and hope the opposition make a mistake or fall out among themselves.

Today's widely-trailed announcement by Jack Straw, that the Lords will be reformed but that this will not be even attempted until after the next election, is only the latest example of this. The report on the 大象传媒 website says "Mr Straw stressed that it had never been the government's intention to legislate in this Parliament."

This is a falsehood. In the 2005 manifesto, Chapter 9, they said:

"In our
next term we will complete the reform of the House of Lords
so that it is a modern and effective revising Chamber."

If that is not an "intention to legislate" I don't know what is. Straw must either think we are too stupid to read what they wrote or that we don't expect them to tell the truth.

Just as I expected the knife criminals are going to see the victims and their families where they will be told how naughty they have been. How terrifying for them they must be trembling with fear. These are in all probability the youths who laugh at the police and magistrates with impunity so I suppose a distraught family will really scare them. You can almost hear them bragging to their mates ". You should have seen them wimps boo-hooing just because I stabbed their kid it served him right for taking the piss at me, as far as stab wounds go I鈥檒l give it eight out of ten HA Ha!".

If this is a "CRACK DOWN" it has been dreamed up by morons who are detached from reality, undertakers must be rubbing their hands.

Lets face it they are totally devoid of ideas !! Shock Tactics my foot, the only thing shocking about these tactics is the stupidity of the idiotic politicians who thought them up and the later blatant denial that this was their "SHOCK" policy

#36 Only jocking: "Are you having a laugh ?

Go to the Sky News Web site and watch her interview with Adam Boulton then compare that to any of her subsquent on camera interviews. "

I had already seen that, but just in case I had mis-heard I have just watched it again. There is no contradiction - as part of the proposals people caught carrying knives will have to take part in a programme to make them aware of the consequences of knife crime, including seeing victims in hospital, their families, and the doctors treating them. That is what she said this morning on Breakfast in much greater detail than on Sky.

The contradiction is between what she said and what she was interpreted as saying, IMO.

#36 Only jocking
You've just saved me the time it would have taken to type the very same things.

#34 jimbrant
Would you not concede those points made after having reviewed the Boulton interview ?

On occasions defending the indefensible weakens ones case

With ref to and in agreement with #37

It would appear that government ministers have perfected the art once utilised throughout British industry.

"Carry a peice of paper everywhere you go so that you look busy and no one will ask you what you are really doing"

The 大象传媒 - sponsored by and on behalf of New Labour ...

... and that's why we got rid of our TV.

@39

Again Jim
It wont work even the way you have so eloquently put it because that assumes that the people caught carrying knives have a conscience.

These kids have seen this level of violence and injury on their skyboxes and Playstations for 20 years now they dont see it as a problem many of them see it as a badge of honour as they do ASBO's they trade them like they used to Pokemon cards

#43 Pot_Kettle:

I wasn't arguing that it would work. In fact I rather think that it won't, except in what may be a relatively small number of cases where the lad (it's usually a male, I think) is just carrying because it's the fashion, for show. My argument is with the statements that Smith has somehow changed what she said, when in my view she hasn't (unless you say that expanding the details of what is proposed represents a change).

I do agree with you about the effect of video games, and I would add films like the "Kill Bill" series (can two films constitute a series?) which managed at the same time both to glorify and trivialise extreme violence.

woohoo we agree on something Jim

I wasnt sure I would see the day.

the real shame now is that Jacqui Smith has shown that she is out of her depth by bringing forward an ill thought out knee jerk reaction policy.

The question is will Gordon see it and has he got anyone he can put in her place, or perhaps in true GB fashion he will take over the running of her department lets face it he already has the role of PM, Chancellor and foriegn secratary. As well as his acting career portraying Heathcliff at a theatre near you soon.

#44 (jimbrant) and #43 (Pot_Kettle), I agree that this measure will probably not work, I would go as far to say with certainty, it will not work as a single measure.

I believe that there are many reasons for this type of violence/crime, one of which you mention, and it will take a concerted effort over a very long period to get to grips with the problem.

If, as the argument seems to be, Jackie Smith has modified/u-turned/whatever then well done to her because she's obviously thinking on her feet and not being so arrogant as to listen to sound advice.

Life to me is more important than preservation of government egos. I hope they keep on listening.

Apologies if there are multiple posts, this blog seems to have gone to the zoo!

"Not a U-turn as such"

This is unbelievable hair-splitting.

39. jimbrant

Jim sometimes I wonder if Labour told you black was white youd agree.

Adam Boulton (while discussing a range of proposals to cut knife crime)

Word for word now..

AB 鈥淎nd one of those proposals is that people caught carrying a knife should be taken to see people in hospital who have been stabbed and meet the families of victims, is that correct鈥�

Jackie Smith replies 鈥淚T IS鈥�

She then goes on to explain her non simplistic approach and why everyone caught carrying a knife should not go to prison.

Pleased you agree it wont work though, its shear madness.

For those who need clarity

#45 Pot_Kettle: "the real shame now is that Jacqui Smith has shown that she is out of her depth"

Back to normal then - I don't agree with that. She is just what we need as Home Sec IMO - down to earth and not too theoretical in her approach. While I don't think the 'show the thugs what they have done' approach will achieve very much, it won't do any actual harm. And the rest of the package is fairly sensible, given the great complexity of the problem.

#48 Michael_Francis:

"This is unbelievable hair-splitting."

Since it wasn't anything like a U-turn, or even a slight deviation, I would put it much stronger than hair-splitting.

#49 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2: "Word for word now..

AB ?And one of those proposals is that people caught carrying a knife should be taken to see people in hospital who have been stabbed and meet the families of victims, is that correct?"


That's right. And if you watch the Breakfast interview (it's on the 大象传媒 Politics site) you will see that that is what she says there as well. There is more detail, so I haven't transcribed word for word, but you can hear it for yourself. I can't see any contradiction.

#45 and #51, I agree with jimbrant - I find Jackie Smith refreshing given that she's prepared to explore options.

From memory, every Home Secretary in the last 20 years has simply said build more prisons and lock 'em up - from results this on it's own is lazy, voter appeasement policy.

Jackie Smith has shown great courage and I admire her for that.

What's more she was a respected teacher and surely that experience can only help on this particular issue, maybe others too, because she obviously has a good understanding of young people.

I thought true socialists didn't believe in royalty. Not kings and queens and certainly not emperors. Yet, reading certain postings, by those whom we all know, I see that it is truly a case, as far as Jacqi Smith is concerned that the Empress has New Clothes!

53. jimbrant

Well the contradiction is this.

She confirmed "taken to see people in hospital who have been stabbed" with It is.

That conjures up a certain image. It involves a stab victim in a bed with a hoodie being marched in to see the impact of what might happen if he had used the knife.

Now and after a small outcry the statement has turned into:

鈥淢eeting the families of victims and the doctors in hospitals to discuss the impact of knife crime鈥�

There is quite a difference.

Any how that isn鈥檛 too relevant no damage done. Except to her of course.

This afternoon I drove off down the road and had gone some distance when I realised I had left my wallet at home. So I checked the mirrors and swung the car round through 180 degrees to face in the other direction.

Not a U-turn as such, but a belated attempt to deal with a potentially confusing scene at the supermarket checkout.

#56 CarrotsneedaQUANGO2: "Now and after a small outcry the statement has turned into:

?Meeting the families of victims and the doctors in hospitals to discuss the impact of knife crime"

There is quite a difference."

Except that you have omitted the part of her comment to the effect that 'they' should 'see the gruesome consequences of their actions' (I think I've got the quote right). Now how do they do that if they don't see the victims?

I think your conjured up image is precisely what I meant when I first posted on this topic - the difference between what is said and how it is interpreted. Smith certainly never mentioned hoodies, or anyone being marched

Everyone who uses a knife is a knife carrier.

The majority of knife carriers are not knife users.

The evidence is that there are very few cases when knives have been used simply because they were there.

The vast majority of cases are caused by a small minority that carry them with the intent to use them.

The governments policy was flawed because it treated both groups the same - another case of acting in haste and repenting at leisure.

I don't think that a Government can do much about it other than ensure that police resources are sufficient to deter, apprehend, prosecute and incarcerate those resoponsible.

Less social engineering and more (social) justice please.

Several attempts of mine to post a comment on this thread, this afternoon/evening, have disappeared into the ether. No ' awaiting moderation' - just nothing.

Sending this to see if different content produces different result.

#60

Having seen # 60 appear, I tried again to send a contribution along the lines of my earlier 'disappeared' efforts. Same result as before.

Has this happened to anybody else ?

Is it invisible moderation thing - or what? Perhaps the moderators could let me know ?

@TAG #12, what has the church to do with J.Smith?

as a nonconformist minister I agree that the Church (in all its shades) does spend too long arguing over what the admin aspects are, but actually it is the media's focus on these angles rather than the wider work of the faiths communities in the UK that give you a wrong impression.

Most of the uk churches campaigned against the war in Iraq and endeavour to invest ethically, particularly outside of arms industry (I wonder where your pension is??) but more importantly they are involved on the streets of every town trying to promote peace, frequently working with other faiths to rebuild a nation where we do indeed love our neighbour as ourself, reducing intolerance between different ethnic groups and also working with young people in gangs.

Every family squabbles at some time, often with some going their seperate way, unfortunately when the church does it it becomes front page news.

#59 Wopitt:

"The governments policy was flawed because it treated both groups the same"

Surely not. It was Cameron's proposed policy that would have treated both the same - put them in jail. The government distinguishes between those who use knives (jail) and those who 'just' carry them (their proposals for re-education by meeting families and victims etc)

#60 Only jocking: I've had that problem as well, today and previously. It seems to be when the site is having some sort of problem, and yet others seem able to get through. I have found that sometimes it helps to log out of the blog and the 大象传媒 site altogether and re-enter. Goodness knows why.

#61 Only jocking:

"Has this happened to anybody else ?"

Yes. I responded (or tried to respond) to a post by John of Hendon (??)last week several times without success, and yet found that I was able to register other posts. Who can understand the way of the infinite internet??

I hope Nick was being a bit ironic. She said one thing one day and reversed the next once small flaws in her plan were pointed out.

If ministers thought before making glib statements in the first place they would get embarrassed a little less frequently.

It's not lying, just being shown up as incompetent when making statements - I don't think the original policy was worth a lie.

Jacki Smith hasn't a clue, we got one ditherer we don't need another one!

I imagine one or two victims wouldn't want this, I for one would make a bee line for the nearest object.... the sharper the better, get the point?

Its another stupid knee jerk idea from from a clueless person and her denials were just as pathetic.

A Prime Minister is only be as good as the cabinet, this one is full of empty bottles, the problem is Gordon Brown can't get anything better... hes stuck with the empty bottles.

Jacki Smith hasn't a clue, we got one ditherer we don't need another one!

I imagine one or two victims wouldn't want this, I for one would make a bee line for the nearest object.... the sharper the better, get the point?

Its another stupid knee jerk idea from from a clueless person and her denials were just as pathetic.

A Prime Minister is only as good as the cabinet, this one is full of empty bottles, the problem is Gordon Brown can't get anything better... hes stuck with the empty bottles.

I see Nick that you are a big admirer of Lord Nelson.....

"I see no ships."

31 extremesense, I am in no way apposed to any one that is apposed to war. thats their business, what I am apposed to is the anti british rheteric that comes from T A Griffin on a almost daily basis, I am a proud briton and I love my country and I am proud of the lads who are out there fighting to give people what we want for ourselves, if you would like to read what this chap has been writing then I am sure that you will know that all you have you do is click on his name and read.
I do wonder if you will come up with the same opinion that you have now.

31 Extremesense ,I am afraid that I overlooked your last paragraph.
The two situations are entirely different the troops who are fighting in Afghanistan are fighting to help give hope and perhaps prosperity to the people of this nation, and to protect us from nutters that want to come to the west to blow innocent men women and children to pieces.
I am not going to get involved with the why's and wherefores of the war in Iraq as I think we have exhausted that subject on here, the point is we are there and our boys need support not the anti British rhetoric that we get from T A Griffin.
With regard to the Falklands war,sadly this is a war that could easily have been avoided a small contingent of troops on the islands would have prevented the many deaths and injuries that British and Argentinians suffered, Thatcher had been warned of the situation by the supply ships that take stores and relief to the Antartic and the Falklands this advice was ignored and we ended up with a totally unnecessary war, for which Thatcher was gloryfied and it won her a undeserved election. although I was aware of the fact that the war was not necessary I fully supported our lads who had been sent there. I was annoyed with Thatcher but that didn't inspire me to denigrate the whole British nation including the royal family as this person under discussion does.

This is one of many ill-conceived and ill-thought out ideas, which are typical of a desperate government. I wonder how much time is actually spent deciding these matters, or does someone send a round-robin e-mail to all concerned and they e-mail back with a yes or no.

I would imagine that these thugs are the last people the relatives of stab victims would want to see. The fact that JS changed the wording only compounds the fact that they're trying to lie themselves out of the holes they've dug again.