´óÏó´«Ã½

Nick

Why this? Why now?

Why not wait for the speech? Or is it easier to pre-judge things?

*shakes head*

And he'd be right to argue that experience counts for nothing in a world in which,

- Russia is menacing a different kind of Cold War
- Islamic extremism is becoming more insidious if not more effective
- The global economy is heading for recession, if not depression
- The whole finance system is ready to collapse

and so on.

In fact, Gordon Brown's "experience"`may actually hamper a PM in this new world.

So you might as well vote, with a clearer conscience, for Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems.

Pretty much right on Gordonbennt.

But Cameron hasn't fundamentally changed the party. You only have to look at the grand people from the shires in the audience to realise that the Tories are basically still the sexist, racist, xenophobic, homophobic group we've known and loathed since Thatcher's day.

Has any body noticed that there has been a tory party conference this week.

Young Dave and his message has failed
to make the headlines.

A complete and utter waste of time, but "HEY" the tories reveal in waste.

Blair couldn't prove he was ready to be PM in 1997. Ditto Cameron. So all he can really argue is that he couldn't be worse that the current incumbent, which was part of Blair's "pitch" in 1996-97. A lot of people agreed with him.

However, it's pretty much unarguable that Gordon Brown is one of the individuals most responsible for the position Britain is in. He's been Chancellor and PM for 11 years.

If on the contrary he hasn't had any significant impact on the way Britain is today, then he can't have been effective and his experience is worth nothing.

He can't have it both ways (though he has tried to, again and again, in recent interviews and been let off the hook by all the media).

Are you experienced, Brown experienced. Yes we all are.

Half an hour before you could find out for sure?

The word "prejudice" springs to mind.

Why should he need to *prove* that he is ready to be PM. No opposition candidate can ever do that.

If you rely on that then you have one leader for life...

Brown has proved that he is not competent - that change is required - Cameron has a low bar to clear -- the more he clears it by the better, but none the less clearing it at all puts brown out of office.

Re 4 homophobic

You can't say they are homophobic when they are fielding gay members and candidates. LOL

"APbbforum wrote:
But Cameron hasn't fundamentally changed the party. You only have to look at the grand people from the shires in the audience to realise that the Tories are basically still the sexist, racist, xenophobic, homophobic group we've known and loathed since Thatcher's day."

Isn't that a tad hypocritical, APbbforum?

I don't think it's particularly fair to negatively label a large group of people based on preconceived notions; particularly when your main point accuses them of negatively labelling large groups of people based on preceonceived notions.

Tut tut, Nick, Grammatically incorrect to say Women and Black MP's , wouldn't it be clearer if you said female?

#5

You've noticed otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question.

it's a shame that newlabour are sitting around waiting for things to turn out differently while sticking with what they've got. That doesn't scan?

Call an election and vote tory

DB,
are you Barkers? your spelling just makes the whole staement fall flat. The correct word is Revel, but, then again, you didn't receive a gud edyookayshun, and it's all the nasty old Tory party's fault!

The "novice" comment in Brown's speech last week was well reported but it didn't have me rallying to his flag.

Thatcher was lacking experience in 1979.

Blair lacked experience in 1997 (as did Brown for that matter).

We were all inexperienced once. Maybe Cameron will be a good PM, maybe he won't, but unless he's given a chance we'll never know.

I think it's a silly argument; like Brazil not selecting Pele in 1958 because he 'lacked experience'.

As to the benefits of a Cameron government... well I harbour some doubts myself. I would normally vote centre-left, but Brown is hopeless, and I want to see a change just a bit more than I want to see Cameron in number 10.

Not sure than makes me a supporter of the Tories, but it certainly makes me a supporter of the opposition.

Gordon Brown is the real deal. Cameron's just trying to fake it by pretending to be Gordon Brown. This is as old as The Art of War, and a key principle of modern marketing. Really, all he's doing is confirming Gordon Brown is top dog. He doesn't even have a USP unless, of course, you think going to Eton is anything special.

It's true that tests can be faked. I've commented on this before, but it's also true to say that an experienced person can judge someone else's suitability almost instantly. I know my stuff and can spot someone trying it on. Cameron and the Tories are hiding the dark stain on their psyche very well but it's still there.

Really, the only hope Cameron and the Tories have is to kill their ego. What that means is Thatcherism commits seppuku, and both the CBI and their friends and allies get with the programme in a sustainable and verifiable way. That's going to take a few parliaments before anyone can be sure.

Nice try, but no cigar.

(I've reused this post with amendments as someone threw a snit over the earlier version.)

To APbbforum
. You only have to look at the grand people from the shires in the audience to realise that the Tories are basically still the sexist, racist, xenophobic, homophobic group we've known and loathed since Thatcher's day.

What an ignorant and dangerous comment. Yes you can tell all about someone, just by looking, can't you!!!

That's exactly where prejudice comes from in the first place. Ridiculous.

Not sure many politicians have experience of fixing global meltdowns in the financial sector - however GB likes to spin his credentials.

As for the Tories being quiet - it has been noticeable Nick that the ´óÏó´«Ã½ has run every story possible this week before giving a passing reference to the Conference - even recycling the weekend's financial news for two days along with GB's posturing. Begins to feel like overexposure to the same news. Compare this with last weeks Nulab conference - saturation coverage of the Miliband v's GB leadership trivia, endless interviews, fringe speakers and prime placement for moments like Sarah Brown and so on - while the financial headlines loomed larger than this week..

Is there a Conservative Party Conference this week?

I'm still waiting for Grodn Brown to prove that he is ready or fit to be prime minister.....

Fantastic speech.

I don't agree with all the proposed solutions - but the real issue after real issue is being clearly stated, and solutions proposed.

I assume Brown will start saying that he is implementing it all over the next few weeks/months -- but we all know what brown says and what he does (if he does anything) are not the same thing.

Brown will try to steal every policy - but he doesn't beleive in anything, so it won't happen.

How about you all watch his speech before commenting... Then fire away.

Change is good, and I am all for change.
Listen to the people who you are meant to serve, and call the long overdue election!

If Gordon Brown really has an ounce of integrity about him, then if he has heard that speech, he will resign.

Is there a Conservative Party Conference this week?

Believe it or not, but I don't honestly know. I thought there might be one but it's only now folks are asking the same that I think there might be. Maybe the Tories are saving themselves for the moment Cameron gives a blipvert? Let's hope he doesn't deliver too early in a rush of, um, youthful enthusiasm.

I really don't have much, if any, faith in any of our politicians. I don't trust them and I don't believe what they say mainly because they never actually say anything. I find Gordon Brown annoying (Especially that gate mime he does with his hands!), I think David Cameron's face looks like a baby's bottom and Nick Clegg is, well, a Liberal Democrat... as for the rest of 'em, they can all take a long walk off a short pier as far as I'm concerned. They're all rubbish!

Well simonofoxford; Nick has the speech in front of him, has read it, can comment on it and actually I am warming to what I hear.

Experience has brought us to where we are and DC is laying out the way he would LEAD on change whilst Mr Brown seems lost. Does he go with the labour conference drift to the left? Remember when Dennis Healey went cap in hand to the IMF as the UK was technically bankrupt? Does he try again to implement the plan that he and Blair devised? He's had 11 years to try.

David Cameron may not have all the answers yet but he is making a strong case that he will drive and lead with the character to get it right. He is tackling some of the fundamental political failures that the current experience of the current cabinet and Prime Minister ( many will say incompetence) has no answer to.

plagiarising jeremy clarkson and alan sugar - that's a new one!

Watching the speech now as I type this.

It is good stuff. So much better than Gordon Brown - two key reasons so far:

1. Plans are based on reality.

2. He is resisting the temptation (so far) to go Gordon Brown like, skipping through the field of flowers throwing out bribes (i.e. laptops) to party faithful.

This is a Labour Party sinking speech............

23 CEH

As aware of the goings on in the real world as ever Charles .......

I wasn't persuaded by Cameron today. He repeated a lot of things he has said before and I'm worried that he's lurching back to what he really believes in - Daily Mail values.

I like him less after that.

The usual collection of platitudes and lack of policies that any opposition party would do almost 2 years before an election. Did anyone expect anything else? There's no point in being too specific until you know what the situation will be when/if you gain power.

Cameron has just admitted that previous Tory goverments created the so called 'broken society'
I bet the majority of those poor souls in Wandsworth Prison Dave visited who cant read or write, were educated by the broken education system that existed under the Tories, the Tories failed the education system and thats official and from the horses mouth no less.

Great speech - can't wait to see how you spin it for Labour on the news later Nick...

Promising a referendum on the Constitutional Treaty will go down well with anyone who believes that politicians should honour their manifesto promises.

To promise something, then go back on your word is a breach of contract and a breach of trust. Labour promised a referendum, but fearing a 'no' vote, Brown went back on his word.

The British people are tired of being lied to and being treated with contempt.

Politicians should remember they are public servants and we are their employers - not the other way round.

Gordon - You're fired!

The unity speech with lateral divisions.

The re-turn of 20Bn cuts in services

The attack on the poorest in society

The attack on state education

The attack on the trade unions

The attack on the NHS

No change, just the same old thatcherite tory tripe.

Not even a man.....just a boy.....with a very old toy............

Brown seems determined to introduce as many unpopular policies as possible:

HIPs, snooping powers to local councils, ID cards, third runway at Heathrow, high taxes, 42 days detention without charge, no referendum, soaring taxes, huge borrowing, fortnightly rubbish collections etc

How refreshing to hear a party leader to actually listens to what people want!

Daily Mail values? What's wrong with those? The Mail has the biggest circulation of all the newspapers - are you criticising the readers who make up a huge proportion of this country then? Hmmmmm.

Interesting that all the tory posters decided to listen to the newlabour conference to find out what they had to say and criticise...all the new labour posters are trying to pretend there is no tory conference.

An unusual strategy...to not even work out what oyur opponent is saying.

It's the strategy that took the Nazi's down to a historic defeat.

It's the strategy that bust communism in Russia.

So keep going newlabour. Keep ignoring the tory posters and conferences. keep going.

then call an election.

He can't do worse than Brown - at least he is not looking over his shoulder all the time. He would be able afford to make strong decisions knowing time was on his side.

Brown will do anything to hold onto power and tries to please everyone - it can't be done

I know I've had enough experience of Labour governments to know they always end in financial disaster; and that the Conservatives have to make the hard decisions of clearing out the bloated client state built by each Labour lot, and lowering the burden on the middle classes who do the most to generate the wealth in this country. I know I've had enough experience of Brown to understand the damage he has done. Roll on the election !

Perhaps not totally in keeping with the blog but was it not fascinating that in the ´óÏó´«Ã½ analysis of the words used by David Cameron .... the words Pensions and Pensioners were notable for their absense.

Retired people should take careful note of this.

runskippyrun wrote:
''Tut tut, Nick, Grammatically incorrect to say Women and Black MP's , wouldn't it be clearer if you said female?''

Not sure what your point is. The category is generally now referred to as 'women' rather than female. Few academics would get away with 'female' without a brick to the head. Also, Black people may choose to express the term in capitals, as a name, rather than as a description.

Not sure if the politics of race, sex and sexuality have reached the outer-edges of the Right. Just when I think the Tories have updated, there is always something said to imply hierachies still remain.

I'll pass on that!

''I know I've had enough experience of Labour governments to know they always end in financial disaster''
---------------------------
Was there not a recession then? Was not New Labour about adopting Cons. fiscal approach with Labour redistribution?

Big cheers when Cons. say they are not to spend like Labour, unfortuately they are not talking about switching from mineral water to tap water at functions - the functions will go on unchanged. Has any Tory stated what they mean by 'living within their means'? It is passed off as more mineral water than substance.

I have a Tory council who painted miles of cycle path. Unfortunately no-one can use it because they didn't prevent cars parking in it, and the road has so many holes that it is unsafe without an off-road cycle. On the other hand, there is one road that hasn't been resurfaced in 40yrs, so that covers numerous local and national governments. Hey, ho...

Patricia @ 36

Is that right about the Mail having the biggest circulation? I thought it was the Sun, no?

Also, I can't work out whether you are a spoof or not. If you aren't, I wholeheartedly apologise and if you are ... well you won't say of course, but if you are, may I say that it's an extremely good one ... like all the best spoofs, very delicate, subtle.

impassive @40's post makes me question whether Drapers Drones are marching again this evening.

Whenever somebody new appears here with only one post to his/her record I start to smell a rat.

Try it for yourselves.

This is my first contribution to any blog but having just watched the Cameron speech I was compelled to register my approval! I didn't know what to expect, the jury was still out on Cameron as far as I'm concerned but I was impressed by his delivery, his tone and much of the content. Ok we have yet to hear much of the detail but that's to be expected at this stage. Loved the stuff about cleaning up Westminster!

Brown by comparison sounded like the one without the experience! He was uninspiring, unconvincing and devoid of any vision.

Bring on the youth and inexperience of someone who at last sounds truly sincere, not celebrity seeking like Blair, not unimaginative and weak like Brown.

It was the tories and Thatcher that started the ball rolling, that ball got us where we are in this country.
Does it really matter which party is in 'power'?
I tend to think not after voting for 30 odd years.

Re 15

You've reused a previous posting! Is that a new strategy then, I didn't notice.

Ireland's new banking policy may be their delayed revenge for the Great Famine.

re 46

Youre getting there, if you have a centre ground parties there is convergence in policy whatever the colour, there is little room for difference.

#44 MaxSceptic

impassive #40's writing style is reminiscent of a regular on another board, Newsnight, a blogger who is especially unpleasant.

2. At 2:45pm on 01 Oct 2008, Woundedpride wrote:


So you might as well vote, with a clearer conscience, for Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems.


I hope you are being sarcastic. A man who lost his temper in public when provoked in a debate. In politics there are ways of showing displeasure, but you never, ever lose the rag.

"For Labour, there is only the state and the individual, nothing in between. No family to rely on, no friend to depend on, no community to call on... no-one but the Minister, nowhere but Whitehall, no such thing as society - just them, and their laws, and their rules, and their arrogance. You cannot run our country like this

Opposition leader David Cameron"

Sound familar...

Wasn't the same sort of thing being said in the 1980s; lets just change one word in that quote and see how it fits:

For Thatcher, there is only the state and the individual, nothing in between. No family to rely on, no friend to depend on, no community to call on... no-one but the Minister, nowhere but Whitehall, no such thing as society - just them, and their laws, and their rules, and their arrogance. You cannot run our country like this.


The Tory captain is taking wine from London to Newcastle isn't he? ...and if you know the history of the tanning trade you will know the phrase I really wanted to use!

Maxsceptic @44
Phoenixarisen@50

You are both wrong. This was my first post and I have no connection with any newsnight blogger. Nor do I see a reason why anyone should detect any sense of unpleasantness from my post.

Clearly you are both paranoic when it comes to criticism of Mr Cameron whereas I write only from observation of how his approach might affect me.

You're both welcome to apologise.

53 impassive

As this is your first posting I will excuse your dreadful spelling. Example in #40 "absense" should be absence.
You may certainly believe I have a mental illness, that is your right. By the same token, it is my right to think your post is in the poor, untutored style of a particular blogger on NewsNight's board.
Thank you for your offer to me for an apology. On this occasion it is gracefully declined.

Phoenixarisen 54 Re my posts 40 and 53

It seems your superior command of English has let you down. I wrote, (spelt as intended) you are both welcome to apologise, not apologies.

Okay, absence was a slip but being new I will learn to be a little more careful - and you should learn something too; after all there's nothing to gain in being so picky when the point made is perfectly clear.

Such as I understand, blogs are intended to be an exchange of opinions, a debate if you will, and yet I see little evidence of a constructive argument or facts to support your posts.

Or am I being unpleasant?

impassive @53,

If you are indeed a bone fide independent poster than I, of course, apologise. Being erroneously accused of being one of Draper's Drones is indeed insulting.

The plethora of 'new' posters with similar on-message content over the past few days since the spin-doctor (now reincarnated as tat psychotherapist) has become obvious even to the politically naive.

Consider yourself collateral damage.

But since you're are evidently a Labour supporter you should expect to be shot down in flames by your political opponents.

As for your post @53 concerning 'debate': I engage in debate only rarely - worthy adversaries being few in number. I prefer to insult, bait, enrage and ridicule supporters of Brown and this government - after all, one has to be either stupid, malign or mercenary to absolve this government of it's past 11-year record of irresponsibility, negligence and outright destruction.

Nick Robinson gets his knife out when interviewing brown but it is very safely sheathed when it comes to Cameron. his TV slot after the conferencewas almost a pp for the Tories

Another Strike for Browns FAIR society

Free meals for children in Scotland.

Along with Free Perscriptions...

Along with Free Health Care for the Elderly...

Along with Free Parking at NHS Hospitals...

Along with Free Tution Fees...

must check the dictonary for the definition of Fair...

55. , impassive


Or am I being unpleasant?


Please be unpleasant. In these so politically correct days, it makes a change to state what we really believe.
However, if you really want to be unpleasant, you will have a long way to go before you can even compete with some of the regulars at this forum.
If you are genuine and not one of the dreaded Draper's Drones, I welcome you to participate and wish you hours of harmless fun in the privacy of your own home (unless you are wasting your employer's time)!

Maxsceptic 56.

Thank you for taking the trouble to respond; I am indeed bona fide and it was very decent of you to accept your error.

In my blissful ignorance I hadn't really considered the degree to which some people see blogs as a sport - but not everyone posting criticism of David Cameron is necessarily a Labour supporter and therein lies the problem. Some subjects are of cross party interest, or should be, and it is only by constantly reminding politicians that they take notice.

Now you have alerted me I shall be watching out for your contributions, willing and able to view them in a more humourous light.

impassive @60,

Thank you for your gracious reply.

Criticism of DC is obligatory, He is, to paraphrase Churchill on democracy, the worse potential PM - with the exception of all the other candidates.

Blogging can indeed be a fine sport. Tally Ho!

Cameron is a joke...he has never proved himself and should go back to school...Brown has done a great job in difficult economic circumstances

Sorry, you say Brown has proceeded well in the economic crisis? Then why don't you say Clegg is a disrupted fish????Brown has proposed moving some powers from Parliament to citizens, including the right to form "citizens' juries", easily petition Parliament for new laws, and rally outside Westminster. This is a fundamental mistake. What does he think he will achieve by this. But don't get me started on this "Cameron" Toure leader. He has disrupted the House Of Lords and may, so my family belives have insulted the well being of my mother.

mr cameron is under the delusion that people will fall for his parties concepts over labours, if you look at both of them they are both interested in one thing thats gaining power at any cost.
each party in politics today are only interested in themselves and what they can do the voting public of this island are secondary to there plans.
party politics is inherently corrupt and should be removed.
this we saw this week with the cabinet appointments made by the pm they were to please his party and to try and stop a coup not in the nations interest only his and his parties.
and again we the voters have to suffer this corruption becouse we allow parties to come first.

in reply to post 58 - Scottish society is FAIR!

We have all the FREE things you complain about because we don't have Broon running the show up here, telling us how to spend oor money and what should be our priorities in doing so. Efter aw we ur big folk who can decide fur whur sels whur oor money goes.

A bit of free advice - dump broon!

Gie me Cameron any day I am sick fed up of this spend thrift, totalitarian regime called nu-labour.

I have met many of the Cameron types. He doesn't really know what ordinary people are like and how they live. He has been to visit the troops on the ground but he doesn't know what it is like to be a soldier, or a policeman, or a roadsweeper. He has done public relations and he is still doing public relations. He can smile and say that he really understands what a hard time everyone is getting when inside he really doesn't give a shit. I just don't believe a word he says.

66:
What special talent do you possess that enables you to assess what David Cameron really feels deep down? I could retort by saying that Gordon Brown deep down only thinks about his own political survival or even revival but I cannot because I simply don't know. If you are not an expert mind reader I suggest that you keep your ill founded thoughts to yourself!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

@67

There is only one thing wrong with Mr Cameron, he is a Tory, sorry make that two things wrong, he is Tory enough to admit to it also.


Thank goodness we have decent people in charge, mistake and all, at least they govern with some humanity.

The UK is a co operative and will always be so, while ever the torys are kept out of power

69:
I would suggest you change your username because most people seem to disagree with you. You're surely having a laugh with the humanity bit aren't you, the 10 tax gaffe, the encouragement for people to borrow beyond their means etc. are hardly good examples of humane thinking. As for cooperative The Unions are playing ball only because it suits them to do so and more than half the people want Gordon to call an election when the dust has settled and go. Do you really expect The Conservatives to be kept out of power indefinitely?

I assumed this was an accidental repost of a pre - party conference speech.... Whats the point of it?

More interestingly... Following the local gov asscociation saying that icesave was rock solid and they should be bailed out...

This is what some bloggers were saying back in May.



If they were worried - WTF were the local government treasury officers playing at -- time for heads to roll...

@70

"I would suggest you change your username because most people seem to disagree with you. "

Yes that is possible, a majority picked a lady called Thatcher once!!! its true, honest. The mess she made, is still revealing itself as i type.


"Do you really expect The Conservatives to be kept out of power indefinitely?"

With people such as you allowed to vote?...........don't be so silly!!!

Only an electorate looking beyond the next 12-24 months would vote Labour.

:-)

Consider this also.

The same "types" who are crippling the UK at present, with their ridiculous, inept business strategy. (Bankers for want of a better word!) . Could quite easily qualify to be Tory MP's!!!!!!!!!

you have been warned........some of them will need alternative employment soon......

72:
As it happens I don't have a vote because I hold a Dutch passport.( No country phobic comments please. My father was a dutch scientist who was awarded the OBE for his contribution to science in The UK). If you're implying that 'people like me' have little judgement then think again. The UK has certainly been partly crippled by wayward bankers but Gordon Brown with his irresponsible borrowing and spending policies must also share part of the blame. He was after all Chancellor for 11 years while this whole problem was brewing. On the subject of bankers not all of them were irresponsible. To bracket the bad ones with prospective Conservative MPs demeans your argument. Looking beyond 12 - 24 months I certainly wouldn't want more of the same failed policies and failed approach. I'm sure there are plenty of people who agree with me. I happen to think that Vince Cable would make a very sound Minister. Are you listening David Cameron?

"I happen to think that Vince Cable would make a very sound Minister"

ah well Gordon Brown is not one to put differences in the way of progress, i happen to think Vince Cable would be already be a very sound Minister, but for his admirable loyalty to his party.

With all of Brown's much-vaunted experience why didn't he see this coming? The evidence was there for media pundits and other politicians to see and comment on."Experienced" sat back and presided over the pack of cards built on cheap credit and unsustainable business methods for several years,he either didn't realise what was the inevitable end result,which is worrying,or chose to do nothing about it,in which case he should have resigned immediately after the Northern Rock debacle.
If you listen to his fine speeches you'll notice soundbites slipped in full of self-praise about Britain's healthy finances,financial probity,his own general brilliance,"Britain leading the way" indeed,not quite how the IMF have seen it.he's a legend in his own mind,in denial and severely delusional.

76:
Absolutely!

@76


"With all of Brown's much-vaunted experience why didn't he see this coming? The evidence was there for media pundits and other politicians to see and comment on."Experienced" sat back and presided over the pack of cards built on cheap credit and unsustainable business methods for several years,he either didn't realise what was the inevitable end result,which is worrying,or chose to do nothing about it,in which case he should have resigned immediately after the Northern Rock debacle."


ARE YOU INSANE????

He probably did but as he knew it was global had to wait, for other governments to see it also, some people like MR Bush need evidence before they act (IRAQ? lol)

Beat around the bush?
Or is it thrash the impunance of Cameron past the high levels of condenming the clouds of irony. Gigantic,esoteric philantrapists have said"before wisdom ceeses to endeaveour we must sekk the truly mind-boggling thereom's of the once past and present danger of Cameron and either we shall be crowned or damned.

correct opinion wrote:
'ARE YOU INSANE????

He probably did but as he knew it was global had to wait, for other governments to see it also, some people like MR Bush need evidence before they act (IRAQ? lol)'.

What a complete cop out this is if you don't mind me saying so. You're implying that Gordon Brown was George Bush's poodle unable to exert any influence of his own until it was too late. Sorry. Not impressed by that argument at all! He was missing on watch while The UK was in danger.

Time perhaps to talk about Cameron's canny little bow, reported today, towards Scottish independence.

Which would do harm to Labour in Westminster and none to the Tories.

Which coincides with Gordon's visit to Glenrothes.

Which would please a good many English right-leaning voters

Which reinforces the suggestion that is starting to do the rounds, that Cameron and Salmond are holding hands under the table.