The Iraq debate in the Commons...
what do YOU think of it...and how would you contribute to it?
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The debate is years too late - unfortunately
It is typical of the spineless individuals who are Labour backbenchers that they have been complaining about the way they were lied to about the reasons for the war, that they have been trying to get rid of their own leader as Prime Minister, but they won't vote for the very investigation that they have been demanding for the last three years.
The-War-on-Terror promises to be a war-without-end. There is a natural harmony between that and the 'no inquiry until the war is over' lobby.
Is my memory playing up or didnt George W and Tony Blair announce that the war in Iraq was officially over and allied troops were engaged in reconstruction .If this is the case there is no reason not to have an enquiry .I think most troops would welcome the idea that those at home cared about them instead of being left to die clearing up the governments mess
It's pretty clear that the vast majority of British people and their MPs are opposed to our Iraq occupation, want Tony Blair to answer for his mishandling of the war and the troops back home ASAP...
YET - here we go again...! - there never seem QUITE enough MPs prepared to come right out into the open and say so - unequivocally - in the Commons...!
That's why Tony Blair is still where he his... Deep-down, far too many MPs seem in awe of him - and it's utterly deplorable...!
Blair is not really all that brilliant a performer - most people have been able to see right through him for years... It's just that he seems supremely confident that there'll never be quite enough MPs (Labour or Conservative) with enough guts to unseat him. And, so far, they're still proving him right.
Personally, I'd have him out of No 10 this afternoon !
Nice one guys! You got your blog contributions read out!
Congrats.
Mary
We need a full enquiry so that we may learn the lessons of how Tony Blair took us to war on a false prospectus and yet we allowed our institutions to be powerless to impeach him and properly call him to account whilst he is still in office. When leaders become addicted to power and use their platforms for the exercise of hubris. it is time for institutions to cut them down to size. A necessary boil will be lanced if Parliament approves the motion tonight. Blair took the decision and lied to Parliament. Blair must take the blame for this foreign policy disaster.
When Margaret Becket says that the timing is wrong. She is wrong. The timing is absolutely right. We have to restore faith in the supremacy of Parliament. We have to be sure that when we send our armed forces to war, we do so with full legality and proper support. We must impeach Blair now.
Over 600,000 people are dead and our Armed Forces are dangerously over stretched. The link between Blair's decision to take us to war in Iraq and its impact on terrorist recruitment is widely acknowledged and so clear.
Blair joins Chamberlain and Eden. His legacy is Iraq, Iraq and Iraq again. This man is damaging our country and the only democratic way to remove him is for Parliament to exercise some moral courage.
Elizabeth Rylance-Watson
I have a bad feeling that this vote will turn out to be an anti-climax. I hope otherwise though, for if nothing else, it may restrain young Mr Blair from rushing headlong into another exciting adventure with his chum George.
...Now I'm stuck with an image of a warped version of the Famous Five...
Muslims are stigmatised because, allegedly, Islam was 'spread by the sword'. Blair takes it upon himself to 'spread democracy by bombs and bullets' makes a hash of the job and still clings to power. Hundreds of thousands are suffering because of this and community relations here are damaged. Will he accept responsibility, no. Do our elected representatives have the chance to land a 'hit' on behalf of the majority of people in this country for this debacle - no. I can sympathise with those who think our democracy is an emperor without any clothes. If this vote doesn't go against Blair, I think young people, potential radicals etc will have every right to feel that democracy is worthless and ineffectual.
Margaret Beckett has continued her arrogant and weak defence method of saying 'We're not going to do it, because we don't want to'. Combined with the 'If you don't like it, then you're unpatriotic', she and the Labour Government sound a lot like George W. Bush.
However, as much as I disagree with the Iraq War, I can't avoid being disgusted by the electoral opportunism of David Cameron.
How are young people supposed to be engaged by the electoral process when this is how things are discussed in Parliament. It bears no relevance to what is happening in the pubs and on the internet.
The content of any report would probably be declared either a whitewash if it clears the government, or biased if it attacks them. Most people have already made up their mind based on a few facts they've (mis)heard, and perhaps the first few paragraphs of a Sun article, or something they discussed down at their book club. So why bother having a report anyway?
Taking this country to war with Iraq was based on a deception and has clearly resulted in a massive blunder. A further enquiry is not needed to tell us that. Parliament voted for the war partly on the basis of this deception.
Re-establishing the authority and integrity of Parliament is now an absolute pre-requisite for restoring the health of our institutions and the confidence and respect of the electorate.
This debate should call for both an enquiry into how Parliament and the British people were deceived accompanied by the impeachment of Tony Blair. Nothing less will heal the wounds, which will otherwise continue to fester.
What gets my goat on this is that we keep hearing the statement from various government spokes-people and/or ministers that we've already had enough inquiries, and another wouldn't add anything. We must remember that the two inquiries we've had so far have been extremely limited in their scope, and there are large areas that haven't been addressed or aired yet. There MUST be a full and complete inquiry into the run-up to the invasion, including the use of intelligence, the full legal advice given by the Attorney General to the cabinet, the timeline of discussions and agreements with the US about any invasion. There should also be investigation into the post war planning, and the influence of the UK into it. We MUST learn why things have gone so badly. We owe it to the people; US, UK, & Iraqi who have died in the last three years.
But Elizabeth, the timing must be wrong. I've been hearing all day that holding an inquiry now would demoralize our troops.
What strange soldiers we must have, if bombs and shootings and seeing their freinds killed in front of them is like water off a duck's back, but hearing people ask why they're there depresses them...
Of course most people disagree with the war in Iraq. It doesn't seem as though there will be an early resolution and it may continue for years. At a cost of millions of pounds and worse: many hundreds or thousands of lives.
MPs are incredibly hypocritical and many lose their principles on being elected. I remember Hazel Blears was one of the founder members of Salford CND, something which I suspect she will not wish to be reminded of now she is in a position of power!
If Tony Blair wins this debate it will be a SIGN from GOD that he should stay on for another 10 years. He'll find a way to do it, rest assured.
To the rythm of the Dalek refrain, I can hear the British populace already:
Emigrate.....Emigrate.....Emigrate
jonnie, you got a mention on the ice. ;o)
I am not sure whether this will pass the moderators but here goes.
The question of whether or not to have an inquest is a purely political one. It has absolutely no bareing on the forces currently in theater. In point of fact most of those serving in Iraq would welcome it. To finally be told the truth, without any spin would be a massive relief to them all.
At the moment all they here is that so many here are against the war they cannot help but wonder what kind of reception they will get when they get home. All they know is that there are questions and rumors and spin when they are trying to do an incredibly difficult and dangerous job. Whereas in previous wars/conflicts upto and including the falklands, they knew only the enemy in front of them, with modern communications, mobile phones, email etc they hear everything and when you are in that position you cannot help but wonder what the hell you are doing. Thoughts like this can get you killed.
The present government have spun this war and the aftermath out to look the way that they wanted it to look. At no point did they ever consider giving the country or the men and women that they were sending out there, the truth. It is very hard to fight under these conditions. You just have to do your best and try to make a differance.
The reason that I know this is that I served in both gulf wars and, believe me people, you cannot even begin to imagine what it is like out there.
I'm going back to the beach. Anybody who wants to join me for a drink is welcome to. I'm buying because I really need one now.
Aw, jonnie, I missed it! Must Listen Again.
Hi Mrs T,
Well often a gut reaction (unthought) is as good as some long thought out comment. It's what I believe anyway.
I've been up to my eyes with plumbing all day and missed my trip to the beach, however I carted Radio 4 around with me which seems to pass the time. We have a new Radio Station down here called 'Original 106', run by jocks in their forties so I thought I'd give it a go, lasted an hour. -- It's so un-original.
Eddie sounded happy anyway, interesting programme and I'm very happy about NASA giving the Hubble a refit.
I'll see you on the beach bright and early :-) Off for a late bath and well deserved meal at our local haunt. .... get it ! (haloween) Mmmmmm!
jonnie x
An important question that is overlooked is ' If we had not gone too war ,what would the situation in Iraq be now?'
It is hard to see how it could be good. It is much easier to see that it could be very bad. Sanctions breaking down. Sadam getting ever more powerful or perhaps overthown by Taliban sypathisers. I think the probility is more than 50:50 that ii would be worse than at present with democracy not even on the agenda. Democracy of a sort must win this one. We have had it so long that we take the benefits for granted. If the majority of the populatin really thinks that we should not be trying to win in Irag thank god there are still some that do.
Hi Mrs T again (Re: 17)
My last post was posted before your last one was published (sounds posh dunnit)
I know where you are coming from and share your views but have no idea why you doubted that your comments would have been moderated.
I think your last your final words need more explanation, well I'd love to know more. -- you said :-
>>>>>>'The reason that I know this is that I served in both gulf wars and, believe me people, you cannot even begin to imagine what it is like out there.
I for one would like to hear more, perhaps you can expand (in the nicest possible way) tomorrow, either here or on the beach.
Quick change of subject :
We have a Hotel, very clearly 'AN HOTEL' -- been plagued all night by bloody trick or treaters. You'd really think they'd realise wouldn't you ? Goodness it's getting just like the States!
Sorry Piper
I am disappointed, folks.
There has been a great deal of generalisation and muddled thinking.
Much as we might wish things to (have) be(en) different, we are in the circumstances that exist.
I am reminded of the advice offered by a "local" to someone who had asked for directions:
"If I were you, I wouldn't start from here."
Like the tourist, the Powers That Be don't have that option. Their critics (with no responsiblity) will regard each of the alternatives as arrogance or cowardice. They'll be damned if they stay and damned if they go.
Let us not be particularly swayed by opinions here; we are a self-selecting community.
Sorry Broderick Anglaise your analogy is woeful. The "Powers that be " aren't like a "lost tourist".
Not unless the tourist manufactured a false map, deliberately sabotaged all the direction signs, and blinded all the locals before he thought of asking for directions.
Sorry Broderick Anglaise your analogy is woeful. The "Powers that be " aren't like a "lost tourist".
Not unless the tourist manufactured a false map, deliberately sabotaged all the direction signs, and blinded all the locals before he thought of asking for directions.
Hi, I tried to put this suggestion on the Newsnight blog but it told me I was not allowed to comment - personally I call that censorship. However, I am so enamoured of my own brilliant idea that I thought I would try a more sympathetic ear and come to you Eddie.
To Newsnight/Gavin Estler - In your newsletter you ask, regarding the inquiry into Iraq, whether the Government or the opposition is more in tune with the British people. Well what about doing a straw poll of all the recipients of ´óÏó´«Ã½ news program newsletters across radio and TV? If all the daily newsletters sent out tomorrow invited recipients to go to a web page, register (obviously not for future reference, only to try and keep it to one man/woman, one vote) and vote either yes or no on the issue of the referendum that would provide a pretty interesting result to put to the Government.
Sophie
Well, wasn't that a wonderful waste of parliamentary and broadcasting time.....
All the hype, on-air speculation and then after the result - will they or won't they continues.
[rolleyes]
Dr H
Somebody told me this morning that it is "Stress Awareness Day" today. I find that quite worrying!
If you find work stressful, and many do, you could try following my lead - get the sack.
bold?
25 Dr. H.
I'll put it in my Outlook calendar; that should cover weekdays except when I'm out of the office.
Dear Broderick, I believe you may be mistaken in an assumption. The idea of an overarching inquiry is to review why we took part in the invasion of a sovreign country in possible breach of international law. It is important for democracy that the actions, decisions, and basis of decisions is investigated fully and openly so that we as a nation can determine if the actions of the present government are acceptable and legal or not. The inquiry would not be to change current policy,. it is to see why we arrived at this point, not what we are to do next...
On the topic of this blog - it’s bust again.
On the topic of the debate - I do sometimes wonder what is achieved in the commons by hordes of MPs shouting each other down, and trying to stick the verbal boot in. My work would never get done if we took that approach here.
WHOEVER'S ON BLOG DUTY
The comments page for the new posting isn't working
Big Sis, I seem to be following you around. I've just posted that somewhere else - at least it's not just me having the usual techy problems.
2 blg ppl. blg nt work. pse fx. ta.
Well said, Broderick Anglaise. I'm not happy about Iraq, and I do support the idea of an inquiry (although if the criticis don't like it it's probable that they will do what they did after Hutton and say "No, we don't like him after all - we want another inquiry!"), but it's no good pretending that going over what has already happened will move us forward. The automatic assumption that everything the government does is wrong is just as dangerous as whole-hearted belief that it is always right. In international politics if the answer seems simple then it isn't the answer... (not while men are in charge anyway... I realise the older I get the much more sexist I become. This is experience triumphing over hope, I fear.)
Doc, how many people are not aware of you?! Surely there can't be many. I should like to announce that I am fully aware. You are on my mind. There - do I get an award?
I have to admit to resigned amusement every time the question of Iraq is brought up again on Any Questions (or the televised equivalent). Yes, there are strongly held negative views across a wide range of people, and yes there have been some unfortunate consequences, etc. But to keep on moaning about it doesn’t really help. There was an election last year, after all. (I hope this serious point is clear.)
(36) Aperitif:
How nice. Yes, you get the most expensive award I can afford. Is a £5 note OK?
Dr H (29)
How did you wear the sack?
Off the shoulder, or round the waist?
(How I wish you could all share the mental picture I'm seeing!)
I've just emailed this to the prog. And now I'm going to post it on every thread I can lay my wee Scottish mitts on. Having got fed-up having to check half a dozen different threads a day, in case I'm missing something......!
***
Dear Sir Christopher Mair
I notice that we froggers are self-sorting the threads:
- serious stuff on the Iraq thread
- communication on the txtspk (grrr!) thread
- environment on the Milliband thread
- light relief on Day One
Is it worth simplifying the frog, rather than continually posting new threads that we all feel we ought to keep checking, and can't resist commenting on? for example...
- leave Day One running. It's a joy, a little holiday-in-the-head for those of us who really should get out more. Friendships are blossoming there, for goodness' sake!
- encourage serious topical debate on Iraq and/or Milliband ... post the fresh topic of the day on there, and we'll all respond - you know we will.
- put a fresh thread on the main page each day, but direct the comments to Iraq/Milliband. And delete it when the next topic comes along.
- then, when the newslet-you-know-what comes back online, you can use the same message on that.
Efficient use of ´óÏó´«Ã½ resources, find our serious contributions quickly, but don't spoil the fun.
I would of course have run this past the other froggers first ... but on which *!*!*! thread would I post it? (That being the point, really.)
Fifi
I've just emailed this to the prog. And now I'm going to post it on every thread I can lay my wee Scottish mitts on. Having got fed-up having to check half a dozen different threads a day, in case I'm missing something......!
***
Dear Sir Christopher Mair
I notice that we froggers are self-sorting the threads:
- serious stuff on the Iraq thread
- communication on the txtspk (grrr!) thread
- environment on the Milliband thread
- light relief on Day One
Is it worth simplifying the frog, rather than continually posting new threads that we all feel we ought to keep checking, and can't resist commenting on? for example...
- leave Day One running. It's a joy, a little holiday-in-the-head for those of us who really should get out more. Friendships are blossoming there, for goodness' sake!
- encourage serious topical debate on Iraq and/or Milliband ... post the fresh topic of the day on there, and we'll all respond - you know we will.
- put a fresh thread on the main page each day, but direct the comments to Iraq/Milliband. And delete it when the next topic comes along.
- then, when the newslet-you-know-what comes back online, you can use the same message on that.
Efficient use of ´óÏó´«Ã½ resources, find our serious contributions quickly, but don't spoil the fun.
I would of course have run this past the other froggers first ... but on which *!*!*! thread would I post it? (That being the point, really.)
Fifi
I've just emailed this to the prog. And now I'm going to post it on every thread I can lay my wee Scottish mitts on. Having got fed-up having to check half a dozen different threads a day, in case I'm missing something......!
***
Dear Sir Christopher Mair
I notice that we froggers are self-sorting the threads:
- serious stuff on the Iraq thread
- communication on the txtspk (grrr!) thread
- environment on the Milliband thread
- light relief on Day One
Is it worth simplifying the frog, rather than continually posting new threads that we all feel we ought to keep checking, and can't resist commenting on? for example...
- leave Day One running. It's a joy, a little holiday-in-the-head for those of us who really should get out more. Friendships are blossoming there, for goodness' sake!
- encourage serious topical debate on Iraq and/or Milliband ... post the fresh topic of the day on there, and we'll all respond - you know we will.
- put a fresh thread on the main page each day, but direct the comments to Iraq/Milliband. And delete it when the next topic comes along.
- then, when the newslet-you-know-what comes back online, you can use the same message on that.
Efficient use of ´óÏó´«Ã½ resources, find our serious contributions quickly, but don't spoil the fun.
I would of course have run this past the other froggers first ... but on which *!*!*! thread would I post it? (That being the point, really.)
Fifi
To all fed up with real politics, and with men being in charge:
I cry every week while watching Mrs Pritchard. I wish it were true!
(sobs)
xx
ed
P.S. from the Burns Unit:
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks?
To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further:
God won't accept your thanks for murther
-- Roburt Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'
Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth,
o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that,
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That man to man, the world o'er,
Shall brithers be for a' that.
-- Robert Burns
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, -
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!
Fifi! You've clearly had too much wine on the beach!!!
I'm really sorry, I think I may have caused internal blog meltdown.
I definitely DIDN'T post that annoyingly long frog several times in the one thread!
Worse than that, I can't see any further down the beach than 376!!!!!
You can't take the beach away from us, you just can't!!!
:o(
Fifi Dear,
Have you had a wee dram tonight ?
p.elliot
The most laughable aspect of this that I see is that the "leader" sits in his bunker in Downing St. and issues "statements". All of which his Ministers and Generals promptly disagree with (example Des Browne on having an enquiry... eventually). Reminds you of another insane leader sitting in his bunker controlling non-existent armies. He too started out a "socialist". Time to go Tony.