I hesitated
before posting this, because it will read like another whiney email about how things don't work. Or more accurately, another whiney email about how I can't get things to work. And goodness knows you've read enough of those in recent weeks.
I tried posting some more postcards over lunchtime - thank you Fifi, Bob, Vyle and RobbieDo, but I can't make it work. The good news is, Lissa has been sprung from her editing duties for a few days. I think she's in tomorrow and we're going to try to lick this once and for all. She's way better at licking things than me.
I interviewed a chap earlier who spent a couple of hours last night trapped, upside down, on a fairground ride that went wrong. I was very interested to know what he thought about all that time, as the blood rushed to his head - and stayed there. He said he just distracted himself. Not sure what I would do. I suspect my life would flash before me. The last time that happened, it was mainly awkward silences.
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Hmmmm and no reference of my card either, Big Sis, and I sent mine almost 3 weeks ago!
Who was it sent the card with the frog picture? Along with the last couple, it hasn鈥檛 been added to the flickr site so far.
Now look Fred and sis!
It was your lovely Belgian and twitty(!) cards I tried to post last week, and failed. Be calm. Lissa will sort it all.
Or she's fired.
If Lissa's going to be around for a few days couldn't someone get her to pose for the rogues gallery?
He may not comment for my personal attention, but he always puts my postcards on the blog. See, he does love me really! (swoons).
I'm concerned about the awkward silences. I don't think it's becoming for a professional broadcaster to talk about his awkward silences.
I might be the Bob whose postcard you couldn't print. It's the priceless one about Pollocks & an empty sea in 2048. Hold on to it a while. It will soon be worth a fortune.........
How's this for things not working? (Eric, you need to know about this.)
I sent an email to the prog, about the escalating cost of fulfilling London's successful Olympic bid.
The subject was 'stealing from the Lottery'.
Would it send? Would it ***t.
I tried using each of my several email accounts, rebooted Outlook Express, checked all my settings ... nothing.
Then I sent a test email, just to see. And it went through perfectly, first time.
So, I took my original message, changed the subject to 'Olympic story' and sent using the usual email account.
Sent!
...Is it any wonder I'm a fully paid up conspiracy theorist?
Frustrated Fifi of Faffingaboutwithstoopidemails
what happened to the photo of the hapless Rupert? It disappeared while I was in Oz and no-one seems to have mentioned it.
BTW I e-mailed a friend in Phoenix Az saying I was back frm Oz, and she thought I meant I had been somewhere in Kansas.
my light bulb joke - yes I know I'm a bit late, I've had a busy weekend and I'm playing catch up.
You need to know something about the Church of Scotland to appreciate this one.
Q How may elders does it take to change a light bulb?
A As many as the minister wants because THE MINISTER ALWAYS HAS THE LAST WORD.
Dr H
I sent a card with a frog - Not sure if it's the one you mean, 'cos I haven't seen it anywhere on the site.
So maybe there are two frogs?
Big Sis
There you go, Big Sis.
Personal attention yet again from Eric.
How can you think he doesn't love you??
;oD
Eddie! Did you just swear live on radio?!
Oh you are naughty - but I like you :-)
Listening to the PM, and a lady trying to justify an awful, truly awful 'verse', I couldn't believe it!! Its so appalling, dreadful, insensitive, nasty, unpleasant, and ghastly in every way. What on earth is going on? Do people still have this 1950s mentally?
I only ask.
Sorry, 'mentality'. Puppty is distracting me fighting with his bed.
Anyway that is my excuse.
Sorry, Eddie!
Rosalind (15) (16)
Couldn't agree more.
I had to move away from the radio while she was on. Otherwise the radio was likely to be taking a one-way trip out of the window!
Re the racist "poem". My 70 year old mother forwards me all the jokes that reach her from her elderly friends and relatives. Some of them are very funny, but when she sent on the racist "poem" recently that had been sent to her by my favourite Welsh uncle who had received it from some Brits in the States, I was absolutely shocked.
I wrote back that I wouldn't be surprised if she was thinking of voting BNP next and couldn't bring myself to speak to her for two weeks. When I finally managed to admonish her, she apologised for "offending my senses" but she had simply thought that the poem was "funny". I spent a sleepness night writing her a 1000 word essay explaining racism to her, but ultimately didn't send it. So I'm glad it's come up in the news now.
Like Rosalind says, it's a 50s mentality and perhaps a generation thing. Quite honestly I wished my stupid mother and even stupider old Uncle Bernard dead, I was so ashamed of their ignorance. Ironically this happened when the issue of regional sub-post offices being closed came up - sorry Mother, but that'll be hard-working Mrs Patel at your local shop out of a job...
Right, no, that's it - I'm stamping BOTH feet now, AND writing in capitals! I sent mine before Fearless and it had a donkey on it wearing a Hat and it was just fabulous, and not only don't you use it - you don't even mention that you got it. I'm obviously going to have to change my name, me having been a frogger since the first week too.
Let's see, Little Sis? FoFo, VylePedant, Fearless Frederica? What do I have to do??
What's happened to listen again? I missed the alleged swearing incident and can only get Saturday's programme. Are they fiddling with the record? is the USA election attitude contagious?
We demand to know.
xx
ed
Eddie,
I'm on my knees.
Sorry.
I'll be patient!
Big Sis
Big Kiss
Not sure, though, how I feel about my lovely card being described as 'twitty'.
I'm feeling rather raw today (beachcombers will see why), so feelings are easily hurt.
"Tread softly", Lord M!
Oh dear, the blogs blogged up again. My posting (currently 22) was a kind of PS to one sent a bit earlier in which I thanked dear Eddie for all the attention .........
It all comes out a bit mad sometimes, doesn't it?
I'm just 'listening again' to PM and to Eleanor Bland, who doesn't quite live up to her name. I don't know how Eddie could keep his cool, and I was so pleased to read Sue's offering (above). Couldn't agree more with you, Sue. There's far too much racism in this world already. I get extremely upset every time my mother, in a well-meaning way, struggles around the issue with her ill-concealed misconceptions hanging out like a poorly fitting petticoat. But, I guess, we do need to try to understand that, in the case of the older generation, it is a very steep hill that they have to climb given the preconceptions of their own parents' generation.
Oh dear, the blogs blogged up again. My posting (currently 22) was a kind of PS to one sent a bit earlier in which I thanked dear Eddie for all the attention .........
It all comes out a bit mad sometimes, doesn't it?
I'm just 'listening again' to PM and to Eleanor Bland, who doesn't quite live up to her name. I don't know how Eddie could keep his cool, and I was so pleased to read Sue's offering (above). Couldn't agree more with you, Sue. There's far too much racism in this world already. I get extremely upset every time my mother, in a well-meaning way, struggles around the issue with her ill-concealed misconceptions hanging out like a poorly fitting petticoat. But, I guess, we do need to try to understand that, in the case of the older generation, it is a very steep hill that they have to climb given the preconceptions of their own parents' generation.
Eddie - did you keep a straight face when that horrible Bland woman said "I have lots of Asian friends"?
I find it difficult to accept this "fifties" thing. Did our forebears learn no lessons from the holocaust?
Mary
Ms Bland was indeed horrid and racism is dreadful, but, Sue (19), you wished your mother and uncle dead?! I'm afraid I find that pretty horrifying. I think you'd be better off sending your letter - talking, understanding even (and I know this sounds pompous) educating those with prejudice is the only thing that might work. I hope you've managed to talk about it with them since.
I'll huff and I'll puff until I get my point across ...
I can only agree with the comments on Ellenor Bland's excruciating justification of her predicament. If she can't spot that the "humorous" poem contains racist language and ideas then she needs to be fired from a cannon. I was shouting at the radio like a demented idiot. Hopefully in some whizzy digital future I could push a button on the radio that will register a "BOO! HISSS!" in the studio to provide some instant feedback. (大象传媒 grown-ups, there is your new assignment, now get busy. Our sanity hangs in the balance.)
Breathe ... relax ... happy space ...
Interesting point about the 1950s. I often wonder why, when attitudes develop, some people just don鈥檛 seem to be able to catch the prevailing wind. When folk woke up to the fact that what they were saying, thinking and telling jokes about back then was racist, sexist, or just plain offensive, they moved on. Except that some people, like Ellenor Bland, just didn鈥檛. I assume that they mostly don鈥檛 intend the offence they cause, but why can鈥檛 they hear what the rest of the world can hear so plainly?
mary mary @27, it has been my sad expereince that people learned absolutely nothing from the holocaust, and amazingly to me, it seems that my parents generation, who fought the war were often more anti-semitic than any other generation I have ever known.
You would have thought that for them at least anti-Semitism would have been a total no-no, but it wasn't. It's very widespread in England and I always feel totally shocked when I encounter it, although goodness knows, I should have learned by now to expect nothing better. I always try to take people up on it, but it can be difficult to do.
Valery, maybe he hasn't got your postcard yet. ANd if he has, well you know he's rubbish at technical stuff. Or it could be that he's juts bitter because you still live in the land of the gods and he's in obnoxious career oriented exile in London.
Thanks for that Anne, you may well be right. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt - although if your suggestions as to his aspirational domiciliarity are right, then perhaps he doesn't deserve it. He should work from home, like the rest of us :o)
Slightly smaller flounce off to bed (thanks for listening!)
鈥淲hen we won the 2012 Olympics鈥?
Are there time travellers amongst us? I believe the 2012 Olympics were secured, but will only be won by the country that earns most gold medals - in six years鈥 time.
Well .. Anne, Charles, Aperatif, ian, Big Sis, Aren't we all getting just a little too comfortably mounted on our high horses about Eleanor Bland?
I've just listened to Eddies interview as I missed it this evening. For anyone else who missed it you can find it on the Radio 4 'listen again' and spool through to around 20 odd minutes in!
/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/pm
Now for those of you who haven't seen the poem it is here as published on the Guardian website. If you click the next link you will see it so be warned as I would not want to be jumped on for inciting racism. This is it -- and Eddie or moderators please delete the link if you need to but keep the rest of the comment please.
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Can I remind you all that it's called the 'ILLEGAL' Immigrants poem. Although I don't endorse a lot of it's contents it's a parody of a popular opinion which I here retold in my Hotel, the pub, the club, the gym etc and normally from Joe Blogs, representing themselves as the Great British Public, bit like Eleanor is probably.
Secondly, her husband sent it anyway !
I heard the News 24 interview, which I think in comparison to Eddie's was terrible. It reminded me more of a lecture from a headteacher. Please listen to it as it's very different to our Eddies one.
Come on froggers, this is really a lot of hot air about nothing, just a bit of political point scoring.
jonnie (33)
Thanks for the link.
Take out the emoticons and it's virtually identical to a rhyme that was circulating in the mid 60s when the late Charlie Williams was doing great business in the clubs & on TV.
To say I was friends with an asylum - seeking family would be an overstatement, but I was involved in preparing the case for their stay. I have no doubt that they were truly refugees.
The father's English was not good but he voiced the thoughts in the rhyme and we disagreed substantially about whether he should try to get work. He said it was wrong for him to receive money for doing nothing when he could work. I told him that he would be unlikely to be paid enough to match the benefit granted to the family but that cut no ice. "We can live in one room. We spent weeks in the open air with little food and money."
The clincher was that "working" would jeopardise the conditions for staying in the country, and disappearing into the black economy would make things difficult for the children's education.
In the event the appeal failed and rather than wait to be deported to their country of origin, they decamped elsewhere. Don't ask me how, he obviously had better connections than I. They were not "trafficked", of that I am sure and I think they would have succeeded in their claim but for passing through a "safe" country on their way here. The language, there, was less to their liking than English.
I found it difficult to argue against the opinions (in line with the email's) he had formed during his time here other than saying that "rules is rules". How long we shall be able to afford the rules remains to be seen.
I'm sure that less deserving claims have succeeded.
Jonnie (33).
I'm sorry Jonnie, perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree about this one. I've re-read the poem and it's still offensive. It doesn't feel like nothing to me.
Here are my thoughts:-
The fact that it was her husband who forwarded it and that it was passed on by the lib dems is irrelevant in this case, because she thinks that it's contents are acceptable, which is the point here. Also the illegal immigrants that are objected to, are just from Pakistan, NOT those nice white ones from Poland and Hungry who work so hard doing our plumbing and cleaning our houses.
Also, it's a million miles away from the truth. An illegal immigrant can only prosper here if they work. If they are here illegally they will probably avoid contact with the state otherwise they might be discovered. Not pitch up and demand benefits.
There's more and more rubbish in this poem that gets my goat about breeding etc ... but I'll end up typing in upper case, and we don't want that.
As Sion Simon also found out to his cost, for satire to work, it needs to be a) actually funny b) broadly accurate. This poem is neither.
Rant over ... but still boiling ...
well now jonnie 33 if you re-read my comment you will see that I made no reference to Eleanor Bland or the silly poem that all the fuss was about. My comments were specifically to do with anti-Semitism. If you think that anti-Semitism is not rife in England I can give you plenty of examples that I have come across to prove that it is, and I don't mean examples that I have been subject to as I am not jewish myself. I do not feel that taking a stand against anti-Semitism, or racial prejudice, or indeed any attitude that de-humanises other human beings is getting up 'on a high horse' as you put it. It is drawing a line and saying 'I will not be part of this, not even tacitly'. We are quite frivolous froggers here generally speaking but that doesn't mean we can't be serious now and again and it seems a shame that when we do take something seriously someone should point an unkind finger at us for doing so.
Re the "Racist Poem". I wouldn't let ourselves get really worked up over this.
The poem is offensive and totally illogical regarding illegallity - getting benefits - working. It is made more vile by the addition of the cartoon characters in the hard copy. Unfortunately it is in the tradition of the Bernard Manning school of comedy which many people find hilarious.
On the plus side we had the opportunity to listen to that incredibily stupid woman trying to defend the poem on PM. If she had had the wit to really read the thing before coming on the programme she might not have made such a complete a**e of herself. Thank you Eddie for supplying just the right amount of rope.
Finally, can we not establish an interviewer's convention that says that on hearng someone say "I have lots of Asian friends" or "Some of my best friends are black" allows the interviewer to deliver a sharp smack on the face?
Hmmm ... just noticed in in the Guardian link (33) that Ellenor Bland's husband signs himself as "Ellie" when he forwards on stuff from his wife's email account.
Sorry, but it's got to be said ...
"PANTS ON FIRE".
There, I feel we've got to the bottom of that now ...
Jonnie
I suggest you reread my posting as I fear you have misinterpreted it.
I don't think high horses were involved, in my case anyway, but I do not retract what I've said.
My point was primarily addressed to Sue, and I really don't want to get into debates about what is a very complex and sensitive area. However, I think that we all have a responsibility to try to behave sensitively towards others when it comes to areas regarding cultural, racial and religious differences, particularly as intolerance has historically been the cause of so many of the world's ills.
Big Sis.
I can't help thinking that these issues are just SO complicated. How do you attempt to separate the feelings and beliefs of the individual from the prevailing ones of the society in which the individual exists? Individuals are susceptible to the benign effects of "education" - but not all will change their views. Is it acceptable for an individual to believe that today's Britain would be better for having fewer immigrants? I guess a part of me believes that it must be acceptable, even if I think the sentiment is simplistic. Is it then acceptable for somebody who is seeking public office to proffer, or propagate, such beliefs? Again, whilst finding it distasteful, a part of me thinks that it must be. Should such a person be castigated for doing so? Yep, I reckon so.
But the "society" part is more difficult still. It is convenient for us to demonize groups - it helps to maintain a "healthy" them and us which can be manipulated by those who wish to manipulate. Surprisingly, I've come to this conclusion by a rather odd route. I don't think that I am as naturally sceptical (incidentally, without going to get my dictionary, I'm not sure if that should be a 'c' or a 'k' - apologies if it's wrong) as, say, Drinks and so benefit from people pointing out the blindingly obvious - even in novels! Michael Crichton's "State of Fear" is a typical Crichton book and you will find good attempts to refute his "global warming" claims elsewhere on the web. However, he does make a fine argument for how politicians, industry and media define our "fear agenda". So far, so "scared". But it has since occurred to me that not only are such actions dangerous in the short term, they also have a long, long legacy. I'm beginning to believe that people rarely change their minds about much - especially those things which constitute the implicit assumptions of the society in which they grow up. This idea came from an altogether different source. Has anybody seen the "Steorn" controversy? You can find reports all over, including the 大象传媒 news pages, I think, but basically they are a small company who claim to have developed a "free energy" source. Because they cannot achieve scientific approval, they have embarked on a fairly elaborate process of having their technology verified by independent scientists (it makes quite interesting reading, actually!). When I was doing some "reading around" this subject, I discovered a quote from some eminent scientist of old (sorry, can't remember who - might have been Maxwell) who claimed that the most reliable mechanism of a paradigm shift occurring was simply the older generation dying out. If you find such an argument at all convincing, then you will join me in believing that demonizing groups/people/countries for short term political purposes effectively sets the agenda for a generation or more.
So what is all this waffle trying to say? I guess not a lot that is profound. My gut tells me that I cannot dictate how people feel and so I must respect other people's right to have views that differ from my own. When views that are potentially poisonous to society at large get a public platform, then yes the "liberal minority" should scream out.
Finally, as an afterthought, we might do well to remember how we learn of these things. A selection of headlines from today's papers: "Christ is dumped from Christmas stamps" (Daily Express) - "Gambling with a generation" (Daily Mail) - "I have Asian friends..." (The Guardian) - "Muslim officer sacked from guarding Blair" (The Independent) - "Child abuse convictions rise by 50%" (The Herald). Hmm, where did dots on your "fear radar" come from today?
Racism in comedy is, perhaps, its most insidious form. It has traditionally been very difficult to argue against ("Its only a joke"), yet people will often then take it on board as reality.
There is another story in the press today, about bullying. A great deal of school bullying is not about direct violence against an individual but is, in very similar vain to this kind of racism. Certainly the bullying I suffered at school was the "being the butt of every joke" kind.
We no longer tolerate it in the playground, we certainly shouldn't accept it in adult life either.
Aside from anything else it gets in the was of genuine debate about the fundamental issues.
On which note, perhaps the question should not be "why are we making Britain so popular with immigrants" but "why is the country they're emigrating from so bad, and what can be done about it?"!
Re: (Anne) Hello Anne, Sorry if roped you into the poem, it was unintentional.
As regards to anti-Semitism, I accept your viewpoint but as I'm not Jewish I really can't comment. However I was both born and brought up in Ilford (East London) which has/had a large Jewish community and I have to say apart from the odd Jewish joke I have never noticed any blatant anti-Semitism.
Ilford is now predominantly an Indian community of which the majority are very hard working. Unfortunately in the early eighties there was an air of racial tension due to overcrowding of properties, cooking smells, which led to house prices falling and people moving further east to Chigwell etc..
It takes time for a community to adjust.
As a gay man I have also had a lot of prejudice thrown at me especially in the mid-eighties when Aids reared it's head, so I'm not personally immuned.
Re Charles (35) I accept your views but don't share them.
On the subject of Polish illegal immigrants, there is one working at an Italian restaurant less than 2 Miles from me. He is doing very well (lots of cash in hand) and there have also been several angry comments from people who ARE aware that he shouldn't be there. I think he'd be wise to move on very soon!
RobbieDo (37) and Aperatif (28)
You are both keen to point out that she is either 'Horrid' or 'incredibly stupid'. I wonder how you would have both faced up to a barrage of media calls, with little time for defense.
Finally,
I listened to a phone-in last night on a London station and was relieved to hear that I'm not the only one who still shares my viewpoint. Perhaps being a national network, some of the Radio 4 listeners are living particulalry sheltered lives.
Jonathan
Big Sis (39) I think I was so shocked at reading what sue had to say that I linked the two of you together.
1000 word essays and sleepless nights!
And sue, just to remind you the poem is entitled the 'Illegal Immigrants poem' and not the 'Racist poem'
Charles (38)
Firstly believe it or not, I am forever getting these kinds of e-mails and if they come to my partner and in need of a response I'll often put a little note such as 'Very funny; Simon. (SO)
Ms Blands comment (if indeed it was her comment) was regarding the 'Footnote' which read : 'Piss off we're full'
Now I think that's enough said. So much better when we are building sandcastles near Blackpool (can I say that) !!
Now let's all get the Little Britain DVD out, or The Germans episode from Fawlty Towers and have a good Whinge!
jonnie
I still think this woman incredibly stupid. She chose to talk to PM.
Rule 1 in dealing with the media - if you're not sure of your ground - buy time.
Rule 2 - if you're in hole - stop digging.
By trying to defend the indefensible without preparation she deserves the derision heaped upon her.
In a earlier post I said that Eddie allowed her enough rope. Can I change the analogy and thank him for supplying the spade?
Yo - a scrap.
Not trying to agree or disagree with you jonnie but you do raise some interesting points. After I'd just posted my monograph, I was wandering around thinking about how we often spout on things of which we have little experience or knowledge. This reminds me of an article I read years ago on the nature of "opinion". Its author's contention was that an "opinion" was really only possible if you knew enough about subject at hand.
I'm fortunate enough to work with people of many different nationalities and that undoubtedly affects my views on related subjects. However, I was out in our local "little city" at the weekend - small, university town, sort of place - where I lived quite close to the centre for a fair number of years. I used to consider it a place where I was happy to wander at any hour - and to be honest, pretty much any state. On Saturday, I was out for a bite to eat, a film and a drink with friends - and it felt like a very alien environment - masses of very young, very loud and very drunk people - and more police than I've seen at home since we moved here five years ago. My reaction to this is twofold. On the one hand, I want to retreat to my little life and carry on with friends and colleagues who make my world feel gentle and safe. On the other, I realise that I am currently too removed from many issues to really have an "opinion" (well, one of worth, anyway).
Whilst I'm waffling, this reminds me of my TV show "format", which I mentioned ages ago. Weekly show - mobile phone "text" voting - on issues that our elected representatives are making decisions about. Since it's not going to happen, I can optimistically predict that it would be a real hit! Somebody mentioned taking a "straw poll" the other day - this would be a similar thing, but more structured. I think it would be ace!
I'm waving from my usual fence here, and don't wish to comment further than, if all (and I do mean all, not just bleeding-heart liberal) society were to work harder to adopt a "live and let live" philosophy (yes I know it's not easy, but what's worth achieving if you haven't tried a bit?) then this too short life would be a tad more harmonious.
Sorry to bang on like a demented clockwork toy but:-
Direct question to Jonnie. In your view, is this poem racist - yes or no?
Hello Charles,
You aren't banging on like a demented clockwork toy and I'll give you a directs answer.....
A: Yes
However the question and my answer isn't particulalry relevant. First of all we need to define Racism. Her's one definition:-
The poem (whatever we want to call it) is also steeped in truth and that's the real issue.
Bang on, Valery P! (And I've just had to add you to my new Fx 2.0 dictionary.) We should have "diversity classes" where we can explore differences and try to appreciate them. For instance, my approach to trying to engender religious harmony would not be to eliminate religion from school, it would be to adopt a multi-faith position - let everybody "celebrate" the different festivals (I know some junior school which try to do this) - can you imagine the fun you could have ()??
Anyway enough on all this.
All I know is that I have 15 smoke detectors in front of me but can't get the lids off the damn things.
John H.
You raise some interesting points in your posts.
Regarding "opinion". What you say is very true - everybody can have an opinion but you really only learn something from someone who has an informed opinion. You can totally disagree with them, but at least their opinion is based on some experience.
On the religion in schools I'm not sure if I'm in total agreement. By all means educate children about different faiths and cultures - "diversity classes" if you like. But no religious instruction - that's personal, individual and should be kept out of school.
All,
With reference to the literal 'dying out' of paradigms, I recall driving my aged mother and several of her institutional cohabitants around the North Florida country roads for an afternoon 'out', and stopping by a vegetable stall I had visited several times before to buy some fresh okra. I had a nice banter/chat/laugh with the proprietor and returned to the car smiling. As we drove out, one of the old dears remarked, "Ed, you just get along with EVERYBODY!"
These folk grew up in a world where they were good to their "servants", but never really saw them as equally human. Later times found them experiencing 'uppity' and resentful attitudes from black people (which were often only mirrors of their own fear or contempt).
My generation (mostly, hopefully) grew through the emerging achievement of 'civil rights' by our neighbours (who still often live largely in the unpaved parts of town) but my children think I still exhibit racist attitudes - I hope they're wrong, but down the generations we improve.
To be fair, there was no threat from the greengrocer. After all, he was serving and I was buying. All was as it should be, and I had lost a good part of my 'southern' accent, and he probably thought I was British, and not just another redneck honkey....a complex business.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanti/Peace
ed
jonnie
Just what are you planning to do when you get the lids of the smoke detectors?
You'll only get Eddie into more trouble
On the matter of perceived racism and antisemitism, the poem "Somebody Blew Up America", by Amiri Baraka caused considerable discussion and a very defiant and articulate
The poem is linked in the response, and I leave it to y'all to have a read. Mind you, with my long experience and partial fluency in the dialect, I can hear the words and their rhythm as sounded, much as I can with Robert Burns. Both Burns and Baraka are pioneers in bringing their vernacular to serious literature.
xx
ed
RobbieDo, well spotted. I did mean "about religion" rather than "instruction". I don't really do religion (at all) but was at an ordination earlier in the year where I found myself singing a Christian song in Kiswahili. I chose to think of this as "fun" rather than "hypocritical". And hopefully not just because my boss is Kenyan.
Ed, I like you story. Somehow, so much more eloquent than my waffle.
Jonnie, I can't believe you're having a go at me - more than once without giving me a chance to respond to the first dig - and I'm really upset. I do think Ms Bland was "horrid" and that is a considered opinion having heard her interviewed in several places over the last few days. BUT you can't have failed to notice that I am on here defending those who put their heads above the parapet in polictical life just about every other day. You have taken my one word about the way one person behaved and extrapolated all kinds of assumptions - I did not say she was "stupid"; I am not "keen" to criticise her. My post was addressed to Sue and was about my shock at her wishing her mother and favourite uncle dead in light of their apparently racist views (she didn't actually share what they had said).
Like I said, you're misrepresenting me and I am upset about it. Given that, it is not for you to say "enough" (50) - you need to make up for your errors first.
(All that and you can't even spell my effing name properly! Sheesh!)
Aperitif
To be fair to jonnie he did say it was me who said that she was "stupid", a sentiment that I will only amend to - "her attempt at defending herself was stupid"
I also own up to being the one one who was "keen to criticise her".
Re: Aperitif (56)
Hi, and sorry if I've upset you.
I realise your post was meant for Sue, however I'm still not clear as to why or how you (and others) can make such a rash judgement on Ellenor, still that's your opinion which I accept.
You are quite right in that it was not up to me to say 'enough of all this' and I apologise. It just seemed that we were going around in circles but I did not want it to become personal or upset anyone. It seems that no one shares my view anyway, so clearly I'm in the wrong and need to re-think a few of my own values. I'll start with never ever forwarding my partners e-mails.
I'm sorry about the name spelling. I was banging things out and not re-reading through the post.
Re: RobbieDo : I have a concrete post that I can't budge and listening to PM last night got me thinking. I'm not sure if 15 smoke detectors would be enough though.
Now, now, peeps. What's all this scrapping?
We'll have no scrapping here!
Would froggers kindly bear in mind that it's awfully easy to give offence on a blog, especially when you pick out people by name.
And would froggers also remember that, here at least, nine times out of ten it wasn't intentional.
Please ... Aperitif ... jonnie ... hug and make up will you?
Or do I have to come over there and sort you out? Hmm??
Fifi Bhoutros-Ghali x
I'll risk re-posting this olive branch. My interweb thingy crashed during the 'send' bit. Sorry if it ends up appearing twice.
Fifi
Now, now, peeps. What's all this scrapping?
We'll have no scrapping here.
Will all froggers please bear in mind that it's AWFULLY easy to give offence on a blog, especially when you deploy a person's name.
Will froggers also remember that, on here at least, 99 times out of 100 it wasn't intentional.
Now, Aperitif and jonnie ... will you please hug and make up? Disharmony on the frog - especially between such quality froggers - is too painful to bear.
Or do you really want me to come over there and sort it out for you? Hmmm???
I'm sure people would pay good money to see that.
:ox
Fifi Bhoutros-Ghali
Hi everybody,
Well, this thread is certainly hot.
And that brings me back to my earlier point. We do have a responsibility to try to behave sensitively towards others. We cannot expect people who have, over decades if not centuries, been subjected to the negative aspects (if there were any positives ) of imperialism, colonialism and attempts to colonise, or who have been subjected to slavery or other forms of exploitation by the so-called First World not to feel extreme sensitivity about how 'we' interact with 'them'. 'We' (or our forbears) have behaved historically with very little regard for the humanity of 'them'. There are those amongst us who continue to act in that way. We have examples of this before us every, every day, and I for one am shamed by them.
I lived, in my childhood, in South Africa. At the age of six, when we left GB, I said to my grandmother, in total seriousness, that when she saw me next I would be married to a 'black man' and that I would live in a rondavaal. Of course I would - I was going to Africa - or that is how my innocent child's mind worked, and I saw nothing wrong with it, nor was I troubled. You can imagine the shock for me when we arrived. I well recall my first experience of apartheid, when the ship docked at Port Elizabeth and we visited the zoo. Around the penguin pool was a walkway, divided down the middle, with two gates, one for blankjes (whites) the other for non blankjes (yes, you guessed!). Not understanding Afrikaans, I asked my mother what these notices meant. I could not understand the explanation, and the shock of that revelation at the age of 6 has never left me.
But I am a post-war product. My father, who grew up in London and worked in the rag trade, developed a strong streak of antisemitism, which always appalled me. My grandfather was terrified of 'black men', and, in the latter stages of his cancer when hallucinating on morphine, it was their spectre which haunted him. These prejudices were born of their generations and times, just as my attempt to disentangle myself from these family preconceptions are my own attempt to be a just and fair person in an ever changing and very unfair world.
We have to understand that it is encumbent upon us, the ex-oppressors, to make the effort to undo the injustices of the past and to try to recreate the presentday in a better image. Or that is what I believe. And so, I see, do many of my fellow froggers.
It is worth remembering the old saying:
"As ye sow, so shall ye reap".
What do you know, Fifi (58)??
[snigger]
John H (49). To a degree I take your point regarding religious education in schools, but there is a danger of confusing an already confused issue. To be truely multi-cultural you would need to give all children experience of all cultures. This would also have to include atheism as one perspective needs the other to exist. You then run into the problem of areas in this country that do not have a rich diversity of cultures. Better, perhaps to take religion outr of schools and replace it with a moral citizenship that is pertinent to all and relevant to the society in which we all live. Perhaps I should point out that I am an ex teacher fortunate enough to live in an area of very rich cultural diversity. And yes, I'm an atheist.
Oh, heck. That would have been funnier if jonnie hadn't popped up to shift the posts down. And can you believe that I had two to aim for?! Anyway, I'm sure anybody who cares will work it out.
With reference to my earlier post, jonnie:
"...so clearly I'm in the wrong and need to re-think a few of my own values.
Or die.
I'm not 100% sure that you should assume that you're in the wrong because a bunch of invisible people disagree with you. But I think it speaks volumes that you're prepared to ask yourself the question.
Jonnie, 58 - "It seems that no-one else shares my view anyway, so clearly I'm in the wrong..."
Does not compute Jonnie dear - you were willing to look over the parapet with a genuine view, and just because others disagree it doesn't mean you are wrong. The whole carbuncle is just not that simple.....and what's the point of having a frog if we are unable to express different points of view. I think the most important thing is not to judge others.
Mark,
Are you sure about that? The Devil rides on the back of the certain.
Shanti
ed
There, I knew it. Twice.
Harrumph!
No jonnie, you're not "in the wrong". You have a different opinion. If we only talked to people who had the same opinion as ourselves we become insular and introverted. Living in Northern Ireland I can testify to this - or at least that's my opinion.
Btw Jonnie - when you say 'getting the lids off 15 smoke alarms' - I presumed you meant trying to get them out of the blister packs, in order to install them into the bedrooms? (Blister packs are a big no-no to me). It never occurred to me you were trying to deconstruct them. Lol!
It does compute that I vaguely found the e-mail (poem) amusing, and saw some truth in it Valery ?? and no one else did!
No one mentioned their views on 'Little Britain'. I think it's clever and hilarious but I expect I'll now be told that I'm laughing at it for the wrong reasons.
One of my good friends has just taken over a Hotel very near us. He's in his 30's and fat. He was born in Wales.
He had a phone call last week from his chambermaids son who is 11.
The son said "Hello is that the only gay in the village" and hung up.. The number checked out and Rob was very upset.
I'm sure there are also people copying the Mira retorts as in 'Feesh and Cheeps' when Marjorie then writes 'Curry' on the board ??
Hello again,
Jonnie, I accept your apology. It was your attack upon what you perceived to be my opinion rather than your opinion that upset me. I don't agree with you but wouldn't be upset about that - as Valery says, we ought to able to express different points of view.
Referring to RobbieDo's comments - I realise that it was your sentiments that Jonnie was mostly criticising and it was the fact that he had conflated them with mine and not differentiated between them - and others - that caused me to feel upset, but thank you for trying to help.
What I like most about this blog is that we can all venture different opinions and, amongst regulars anyway, we rarely fall out and are civilised about it when we do. I am happy to be taken to task for my views and to reflect upon them and change my mind sometimes, but I cant bear being chastised for something I haven't done (there's an indignant child in all of us somewhere isn't there? There certainly is in me).
Anyway, thanks again Jonnie - no hard feelings?
Re; (RobbieDo)
Thanks for the moral support in trying to help me patch things up with Aperitif.
And Fifi, You should be Lissa's deputy Frog Mistress :-)
At last!! A topic which has engendered serious debate on the blog. I was beginning to think that it might never happen. I reckon that this one item has brought about more genuine discussion than everything else to date. Lots of long comments above, many of them well-argued and profound in thought. Goes to show just how divisive it is. And how close it is to the surface of everybody's skin.
I heard the interview last night whilst driving away from work, as I usually do. This section had me shouting at the radio. I was so angry with the interviewee, Mrs. Bland.
She seemed to be trying to convince us that she loved all immigrants, but also wanted shot of them. She also conflated illegal immigrants and Asians. I'd say she is a very confused lady. A bit like people who get confused when talking about immigrants and asylum seekers and think that they are the same thing.
Is she racist? I think, no, probably not. A racist divides peoples up according to some notion of perceived race and attempts to structure society according to these distinctions. Hitler is, of course, the classic example. The 'Aryans' were the supreme exemplar of humankind. All others were somewhere below. I heard nothing from Mrs. Bland which resembled this kind of thinking.
She may be a 'Little Englander'. In the original sense of the phrase, before Walliams and Lucas got hold of it. I seem to recall an old ditty from my childhood about 'The English, the English, the English are best. I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest'. Which then goes on to run down every other nation, note NATION, not race. If she belongs to this category then she is a nationalist, not a racist.
RE: anti-semitism; It's worth remembering that not only the Jewish people are Semitic. So are the Arabs and other groupings. Who is a person of Semitic descent has only to do with their linguistic background, not their race or religion. Amharic (Ethiopean) is Semitic. But many peoples there are of the Coptic Christian religion. Neither Muslim or Jewish, but still Semitic.
RE: the Holocaust; lest we forget, the slaughter perpetrated in the name of perverted racism also took in homosexuals, Roma, the mentally or physically handicapped, Freemasons, political enemies and many other sub-groups. A professed, or supressed, dislike of immigrants/asylum seekers/Johnny Foreigner has nothing to do with the Holocaust. Nor is it anti-Semitic, or more correctly anti-Jewish, to point out that although the Jews were the largest group of those exterminated they were not the only targets.
Anne (30) anti-Jewish sentiments were very widely held in Britain before World War 2. I can remember my late grandfather and I talking about it over 25 years ago. Mosley had real support here for a while.
Jonnie (33 and others) and Charles (35); I find myself agreeing substantially with Charles. EM allowed the lady a couple of chances to repudiate the sentiments expressed in the 'poem'. She not only could not do so, she actually tried to justify it.
STROP-meister (41); all comedy is based on the perception that one group of people is worse off than I/you are. It shines a light into the darker corners of the human psyche and reveals the absurd side of human behaviour. Think of the characters from 'Dads Army', 'Are you being served?', 'It ain't half hot Mum' and virtually everyother sitcom you care to think of. Pretty much every character had a major character flaw, which was the thing we all laughed at. Dads Army will serve to make the point; the pompous bluff and bluster of Mainwaring, the camp effeminacy of the upper-class public schoolboy Wilson, the Walter Mitty-like childishness of Pike, the crabby and gloomy Scotsman Frazer, the genial old duffer Godfrey, and so on. Should we laugh at such patently defective characters? I certainly did, and I still do.
I find myself with mixed opinions about all the issues this raises. Do I dislike anyone on the basis of their skin colour, race, creed, accent, orientation, or anything else? No I don't. Do I think that we have a problem with immigration per se? No. With illegal immigration? Yes, I do. With asylum seekers? No. With bogus asylum seekers? Yes. Do I tell offensive jokes? Yes, all the time. (If it comes to that; Am I politically correct? You must be joking).
Being based in Stockport; Do I feel comfortable driving through Rusholme, Longsight and other places with a substantial ethnic minority, or even majority population? No, I don't. And I feel guilty about this last point. I don't know why I feel unsafe being in those places, I just do. And I don't understand the guilt either.
They are scruffy, down-at-heel and unloved. Urban decay is a reality in places like these. They could fairly be described as ghettoes, occupied by an underclass of the unloved and uncared-for of Britain. It is a fact that they are occupied by the minorities, although that shouldn't mean an automatic assumption of decay. Brighton was decaying in the late 80's & early 90's. So was Barrow-in-Furness in the 90's. I could also be influenced by my background, I was raised in country villages and towns, the urban environment itself feels threatening and unpleasant to me. I regard anyone who claims to enjoy living in the city as certifiable. A good friend from work who lives in South London feels exactly the same about me, because I long for a house in the country.
We are all conditioned by our environment, our background, our upbringing, our education (and education doesn't stop at 16 or 18 or 21). We try hard to rise above it by improving ourselves, something I regard as a mark of true humanity. But if you can take the boy out of Essex, sometimes a little bit of Essex stays in the boy. We can liberate ourselves to a large extent by our own efforts, but something of the past stays with us. Always.
Si.
You people are amazing.
* collective-hug-to-all-froggers-whether-they-like-it-or-not *
Harmony restored.
Now, who's brave enough to share a pedallo with me at the beach?
;o)
Jonnie, 70, that's what I said, that you are entitled to comment on what you felt about the issue, and just because everyone else who chose to comment was in disagreement, does not mean that you must assume that you are wrong!
I wasn't being facetious. As Fifi said - frogs are written (in the main) as a stream of conciousness (ok, maybe I'm speaking for myself as usual) - and sometimes the tone can be misunderstood?
John H, 49, what's your Fx2.0 dictionary, I'm intrigued?
Hi Si,
What an excellent summing up. I entirely agree with your last paragraph regarding 'a little bit of Essex staying in the boy'
As I recall it was the Park keepers at Valentines park that got the most abuse hurled at them from us kids, and what's wrong with building a dam across a small stream ?
Watch out for the Parkies we'd say.
Now I'm off to the Church Fete for a nice cup of tea.
Mmmm ! That's lovely tea, very nice! Now tell me, Where did you say the leaves came from ?
Right
I'm off to walk the dog on Fido's run and then a very long swim.
Btw, I'm sure everyone here knows this, but although racism clearly exists, race is an artificial construct - there is actually only one "race" among human beings. You do? Good, just checking :-)
Ed(66) To paraphrase / misquote Socrates, the only thing of which I am certian is my uncertainty!
Now; to the beach I think. I've a large case of 20 year old malt. Anyone interested?
Thanks to all today for a good mash on this topic. You are all expansively, irrepressibly fab!
Shanthi
P.S. Am I allowed to admit that I enjoyed my hug from Fifi?
Mark,
Count me in! After a few drams we can get round to religion and politics, and who knows...(literally!)
Salaam
ed
So .... We've all finished with this particular, frog, right?
Shall we tell Lissa Blogmistress to archive?
No, no, don't close it down quite yet, I have one more little comment. i wasn't able to read the entries after my one written whilst listenig to Mrs Bland, until now.
Someone said why did I mention the 50s?
For two reasons really
1. Because that is when I was a child and there was much greater conscious and unconscious racism then, despite the after shock of the Holocust. it was directed elsewhere though because
2. that was the period when so many New Commonwealth people were being encouraged to come to Britain to do the jobs which needed doing and faced landladies putting 'no coloureds' in their windows.
I think we have come a long way since then. It goes up and down, i am partly Jewish and recognise the rise of problems there now for lots of reasons. But the groundswell, as it were, is better. I think.
Charles (80):
As long as you're not suggesting anything improper, all compliments are welcome!
:o)
I think we're done BigSis ;-)
Sorry about the High horses and all that stuff earlier..
xx
No, Big Sister, Lissa, don't archive yet. It's just taken me an hour to read through the responses and I'd just like to say Christ have you people got no work to do?
To Aperitif (28): Yes, I wanted her dead. I'd get half the house and wouldn't have to spend the next 10-20 years as a carer. I'm just hoping that she might be reflecting a little now that the verse is "believed" to come from "White Supremacists"...
To Charles (35): Yes, it was the inaccuracy (and thus the ignorance) that offended me more!
Big Sister (39): Thanks for the initial support. My little sister agrees with me too (she was sent the same email). In fact she's invited me up to "redneck country" (she lives in Wiltshire, home of Ellie, I believe) for the weekend.
Jonny (43): It was the PM report which referred to it as a "racist poem", I think.
And Jonny (49): No, it's not the truth. I live in one of the poorest parts of London. The dole scroungers here are not Asian, they are British white and British 5th plus generation black. The Asians are the landlords, the doctors, the shopkeepers, businesses...etc. including my gynaecologist whose pronouncements on my fibroids I can't understand because his accent's so thick (when he's surgically removed the wombs of ALL the white trash women in Greenwich & Lewisham should we be worried about eugenics or the state of NHS gynaecology)...and including the dodgy rice importers infested with rats in the industrial unit next door to my printers - who also get the rats and say "I'm not racialist but did you see the Catherine Tate Show when she was doing that "I Can Do That" sketch and she's a translator at the UN and she just does this cliched pretend foreign speak - fffffff for Spanish and malopowanadobobo for African etc etc - that's so funny, I recorded it and know it off by heart - think I'll use it at the Chamber of Commerce lunch tomorrow..."
Bloody hell, now that's two hours wasted...
Fifi (84):- Nothing improper I can assure you. I am, after all, ... (pause for effect)
... a Proper Charlie!
Hi Sue,
First of all I think I covered all my views, probably needs somebody like Whisht to pop in and settle us all down for the night.
I don't really think you wanted your Mother dead though ;-)
I would only add that I was a little surprised at the amunition - especially from my fellow froggers that was hurled against the poor Woman.
Just going back to the very basics, it was only a forwarded e-mail, and she did say she didn't forward it herself.
Now lets all lighten up!
B
E
C
A
U
S
E
G U E S S WHO'S BIRTTHDAY IT IS ON
S
U
N
D
A
Y
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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
which gives us two days to get the cards off in the post!
Yippee !!
Yes, Eddie will be something 1 again ;-)
aw, this is the kinda thing I wish I'd been around for.
Looks like the best debate/ chat for a while - and typical of PM froggers it had people holding forth with strongly held views yet not yelling or being rude but actually listening to each other (mainly!!)
and ending in hugs and agreement and agreeing-to-disagree
pity I had to skim and am too tired to wax lyrical (glad as awlays some people did).
Me? - hate racism and all ignorance.
and no to any death penalty.
maybe i'll come back over the weekend to re-read and listen to today's as i missed it.
speak properly when things here quieten down...
ciao
Hello my Dear (On the Ledge)
Well she's certainly landed herself in scalding water that Bland Woman. As we say A winter night, a woman's mind, and a laird's purpose, aften change.
However my dearie as you were bold enough to quote a saying (which I believe is normally my little purpose here) always remember that
The harvest that you reap depends on the kind of seeds you sow. ... "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned
p.Elliot
Hi Whisht. Miss you.
Oh dear! I missed a good debate yesterday, it seems :-( Typical! Sorry not to have been able to join the debate. Maybe next time... morning coffee/tea/warm drink, anyone?
Hi there pE
Like your contributions, too. Thinking about the sow/reap quote, I had it more in mind that we in the West have for many decades been 'reaping' the legacy of the behaviour of our colonial forefathers.
You would have thought that nations today would have learnt from history, but -when looking towards America in Iraq, etc. - I somehow doubt it.
Will we ever learn?
Ledge,
"Will we ever learn?"
And, having learned, will we ever change our behaviour?
"A change of heart or of values without a practice is only another
pointless luxury of a passively consumptive way of life."
-- Wendell Berry in "The Idea of a Local Economy"
Vaya con Gaia
ed
Kriss Donald (1989-2004)