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...yes, Big Brother! I've not seen a lot of CBB since earlier in the series, although I've caught a bit of it's Big Mouth this week, later in the evening - and it's not been possible to miss the "hoo-haa". What is going on? From those who have a better understanding of these things, are the things that have been said "racist" as such? I know it's all too easy to imply an answer when asking a question like that, but I genuinely don't know - and that touches on something that has always bothered by slightly about "racist abuse" - where is the line between abuse that includes mention of some racial feature (or stereotype) and "racism" per se? Or is there a line? (Example, I'm tall and have a big nose. As a kid, variations on "lanky" were common - even when meant "nicely" - and the nose certainly got mentioned in arguments. Are these examples of "heightism" and "big nose-ism" - forms of abuse from which we are not afforded legal protection? Or are they just examples of what people latch onto when having an abusive argument? Or, again, is there no real difference?)
As I ask that, I realise that it's likely to be one of those issues that has a "common sense" perspective and a "legal" one. From the clips I've seen, the fact that Shilpa is Indian seems to be a fairly significant factor in the abuse that she has had. And I was really surprised to see on one of the other "BB's something or other" shows (the one with Dermot) what seemed to be a concerted effort to not only ask the question, "is Shilpa complicit in her treatment?" but to answer it, "yes". When I saw that, I found myself thinking that they had helped to identify what felt like the boundary between "reasonable conflict" - ie resulting from clashing personality types, cultural backgrounds, etc - and what was actually going on.
I also find myself wondering about 2 other factors: first, the obvious "packaging and editing" that is an integral part of the show; second, whether you "like" the person involved. Re the editing - have C4, in an attempt to stir things up a bit, perhaps made things a bit worse than they intended? I can't stand Jade - tho' admit when I saw the bit where she went into the house with her mum and boyfriend, found myself thinking that perhaps I'd got her wrong. I know nothing about Shilpa, but always find it easier to ascribe better "qualities" to somebody so good looking (...). I'm sure this affects my view of things.
Oh, I've just remembered - that former Miss "Er - where is it I'm from?" seems to be as much responsible as Jade. She's pretty enough - but it doesn't seem to count in her case, so perhaps that's not a significant factor after all.
Not sure this counts as serious talk. But then again, I'm just trying to put off walking the dog because it was SO awful yesterday, I don't really want to venture out again.
I think the clash between Shilpa and Jade is more to do with them coming from different backgrounds than having different races. Shilpa is groomed, educated and refined. Jade isn't. Jade displays a lot of the angry characteristics seen in frustrated young people who cannot express themselves, especially in reacitive situations like an argument. They turn to agreesion and name calling.
I think Jade and Shilpa would have had the same arguments whatever their respective races but, big but, because Shilpa is Inidan, Jade has chosen this as one aspect of her to attack (just as she might well do the "big nose" or "ging-ger" attacks had they been available to her).
So, essentially, I do not think that the arguments have been racist.
Something I have noticed over the last couple of days is how prescient the two blondes have become - Danielle was musing how it was natural that the three non-Indian girls would get on as they have so much in common, they go to the same places, etc. In a verbalised, thoughful way absent from previous shows.
At the same time Jade has apparently been "taken to task" over her comments (the clip I saw had her being asked why she called Shilpa what she did and Jade justifying herself, no rebuke was used in the making of this clip).
And at the same time Ms Rocos has become very quiet and serious. Almost unhappy to be involved in the house.
Making two and two equal five, I do wonder what has happened behind the scenes and whether any of this has been engineered for the cameras. Of course they wouldn't do a thing like that...
I despair at the image of British women being sent around the world but applaud the way Shilpa is showing herself to be a woman of some strength and moral integrity. But most of all I respect the way Jermaine Jackson has acted as public peacemaker in all this.
But even more than that, I hate the show. My SO makes me endure it, honest.
That's exactly the point John H (1) - where do you draw the line between stereotypical insults and actual racial abuse? It is a very fine line and I am starting to feel a little uncomfortable with the continuing racial slant this row is taking. I believe (and feel free to disagree) that to be a true racist you have to have a deliberate intent to exclude or hurt in some way. The key word there being deliberate (can't do italics!) - frankly I don't think Jade or her little sidekicks have the brain capacity between them to intend to be racist. I think Jade and Danielle in particular are extremely nasty examples of British young women - they are rude, foul mouthed, insulting, ignorant and Jade in particular is aggressive. But I think if I was in there and the target instead of Shilpa the insults that would fly to me would be in a similar vein - I would no doubt be a "dog" and would probably be called things like Jock McScotty and would get asked if Scottish men wear kilts all the time etc - would this be construed as "racism" I wonder? They have no sense of culture awareness - and am in doubt whatsoever that the criticism they are getting is totally deserved - if anything good will come of this it will be that Jade will perhaps finally disappear into the background. However I am not convinced that the tag "racist" totally fits?
In a nutshell, it's all typical ingroup/outgroup behaviour from what I've heard and the clips I've seen of CBB. This is a well researched area and a g**gle search should reveal lots of stuff for anyone who hasn't studied psychology.
It is exactly the phenomenon which has been behind much school bullying, racial and religious conflict, and general social tension.
Most ingroup/outgroup behaviour has several underlying factors which frequently include envy and fear of difference.
I'd be very surprised if this isn't what is happening in CBB, just as it's happening all over the world, every day.
Good day Mr Mair,
I'm glad to see the Furrowed Brow is open today. No overnight damage. May I now take this opportunity to contrast and compare the strikingly different treatment given to three stories involving charges of racism this week?
Perhaps the most hysterical of all is the reaction to alleged racist treatment of Shilpa Shetty in the Celebrity Big Brother house. Her tormentors turn out by all accounts to be three other 鈥渃elebrities鈥 who 'til this week I must say I'd never heard of (and now wish I hadn鈥檛) I think between them they couldn鈥檛 muster an IQ any bigger than their shoe size.
Watching the news reports on all of this, it's my opinion that Miss Shetty is beautiful, clever and fabulously successful, and I suspect more than capable of defending herself against the ignorant and bitchy comments from her z-list housemates.
But we all know now that didn鈥檛 stop 27,000 viewers complaining about the show to Channel 4 and Ofcom, the matter being raised in the House of Commons and Gordon Brown being involved in a diplomatic incident during his visit to India 鈥 plus the issue taking up endless hours of broadcast time and acres of newsprint.
Not far behind all of this was a second story 鈥 the curious tale of the 鈥楤NP ballerina鈥, Simone Clarke, principal dancer with the English National Ballet, who was outed by a newspaper as a supporter of the far right party. Cue demented demonstrators picketing the theatre, invading the performance and demanding Miss Clarke be sacked, even though her political views clearly have no impact on her work.
Again you could wallpaper a house with the press cuttings this story has generated. Finally a third story I noted 鈥 the highly disturbing Channel 4 Dispatches programme that sent an undercover reporter into 鈥榤oderate鈥 mosques in the UK only to discover a hotbed of violent radicalism.
Extremist imams were secretly filmed urging young followers to murder Jews and homosexuals, to attack women who refused to wear the burqa and to launch a bloody jihad against the 鈥榢affir鈥 (that鈥檚 you and me folks!)... members of the public.
Yet, compared to the first two examples, this story received little coverage. The 大象传媒, for example, didn鈥檛 mention it at all, true to its unstated policy of not reporting anything that could be construed as negative to Muslims (although it did manage to find space for vitally important matters of state such as the Big Brother row).
But let's just ask ourselves, who poses the greatest danger to our society? 'Big' Jade Goody; a tutu-wearing ballerina; or a growing army of militant extremists intent on slaughtering innocent people in the name of Allah? Isn鈥檛 it about time we woke up to the real dangers we face? How about it 大象传媒?
Big Sis: agree completely.
As I am particularly disinterested in the "celebrities", but inevitably end up seeing the programme, I end up watching it from a body language/interaction perspective. The moment Shilpa walked through the door Danielle's face was a picture of envy. She was confronted with a very beautiful, cultured woman in a way I doubt she has been previously in life. Projecting completely, but she looked as though she was thinking "oh my God, someone is prettier than me". And the look turned very sour very quickly.
What I am glad about in this so far is Shilpa has explored whether she feels what is happening is racist and has come out the other side of that deciding that it is "just" female group bullying. Had she gone the other way the reaction would probably have been one of "you are all always quick to accuse people of being racist" - a statement I find, well, racist.
I hope this ends up with Shilpa winning - or at least "out-living" the Witches of Essex* in this "game". Even more I hope the discussions about racism and bullying that are happening around the country help some who are suffering find some relief as their tormentors realise what they are doing.
A final thought. Someone said Jade couldn't be racist as she is of mixed race herself. Oh how I chuckled.
*I know Danielle is a Scouse lass but, partnering a famous West Ham footballer and living where she does, I consider her an honourary Essex Girl. I will now go and whip myself for continuing a wicked stereotype so unfair on the many great young women of that county.
Couldn't agree more Member of the Public (5)
(A note of levity - Honest!)
Jason Good/Jade Goody
Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde perchance
(Jason - joking, honest, don't tickle, don't tickle ............................)
Is anyone here as anti the plans for a giant national database, supposedly linking up what the Government knows about all of us?
Considering they can't get any single new computer system to work properly, and the encroachments on our civil liberties that have already come in - supposedly to protect us from terrorism - this strikes me as madness.
There's more here if anyone is interested, or I can forward an email with lots of links to already published material about it.
George Orwell was a prophet.
Fifi
Jason (6)
You don't think Shilpa's 'exploration' could be prompted by the BB production team, do you? It looked more like a statement to diffuse an issue to me than an exploration.
After all, she is a very successful star who apparently has postponed at least 3 movies to be on this show; I don't think she's there for the anthropological experiment.
I've taken part in reality TV, years ago and whilst we were with and aware of the camera crews at all time (apart from when we were sleeping), there was plenty of intervention by the production team. I can well imagine, with the loss of a sponsor the production team would intervene.
I do hate to be cynical but my experience back in 2001, made me so when it comes to reality TV.
Member of the Public: my answer to your question in the final paragraph is "none of them".
Imvho the greatest danger to us is the political establishments of the UK and US and their continued partial dealings in the Middle East. Given only slight spin I can see why young Muslim men are very angry about how "we" are dealing with this part of the world, and did all through the last Century.
Of course this does not excuse violence but, mixing wrong actions with religious fervour and young male suggestible brains, it is unsurprising that we face a terrorist threat.
Taking a siege mentality to this puts us in a position where we do not address our failings in an attempt to remove some of the fuel that the extremist brainwashers use in encouraging their young men to attrocious acts. So we end up fighting terror rather than addressing the origins of it.
I now fully expect to be accused of apologising for or making excuses for terrorists. Nothing is further from my mind. I just see the path we are on will lead to increased destruction of life and a continued erosion of our liberty without reducing the real threat of the terrorists.
But the real dispair is feeling powerless to do anything about it. Even given that power, I have no clue what would be the right thing to do anyway.
I watched the very early series of BB and found it fairly interesting then; it has become less so with each series and I had not watched this one since the first episode when I realised I had heard of hardly any of the so-called celebs. But of course the publicity (coupled with the fact that there wasn't much to watch on other channels) caused me to give it a go last night after dinner.
Of course, viewing figures are exactly what BB is seeking, plus as many phone calls as possible (which I won't be making), especially since they have (maybe only temporarily) lost the Carphone Warehouse sponsorship. Manipulation is the name of the game. You can see this so clearly from the way in which the show is edited. Even those who apparently watch it most of the day only see what they are shown.
I tend to agree with Jason (2) that this is a class/background issue rather than outright racism. I did see Jade on the show years ago; she was grim then and I can't see any improvement! The "joke" then was that she was so incredibly uneducated and sadly nothing has changed, except that we now see how uneducated people might behave in a more threatening, less "jolly fun" situation, and it's quite scary. I find Shilpa to be beautiful, clever, educated and very cultured; she exercises superb self control. In attempt to look at her the way Jade must see her, she must seem like an impermeable rock and utterly unapproachable. All Jade can do is resort to insults and shouting. You can see this on any large estate (I used to live, albeit briefly, on a very run-down London estate where the residents didn't even understand each other, let alone anyone from outside. One would grunt, then another would grunt louder, and within a few minutes fists would punch and bottles be thrown).
Many years ago we were visited by a white South African acquaintance we had known when we lived in the Netherlands. She seemed quite nice back there but apparently gained some kind of assurance from being in the UK and announced over dinner that the black people in SA were different from those in the US because they were "ineducable". SO and I were so horrified we put her out of the door as fast as we could and never contacted her again!
And again to my horror I find myself looking at Jade and wondering whether she is educable! I am ashamed of myself but don't have any answers.
Today I heard in the interview on Today Gordon Brown talking about winning hearts and minds (yet again). This inability to understand one another, to empathise, to communicate seems to be everywhere these days. What on earth is the solution?
I have always thought that a newborn baby is always good, like an open book, a sponge, with endless possibilities. So where do we go wrong? If adults are finding it so hard to understand each other, how can we reach the promise of the new generation which emerges every day?
Jo Christie-Smith (9)
You are absolutely right to say we should be cynical about these 'reality' shows. The public only sees edited hightlights (or lowlights in the case of BB) that the producers feel will titivate their viewers and keep them coming back. Hardly real at all, but the pick-and-choose viewpoint of vested interests.
As for the underlying issue of is it or isn't it racist - until someone comes straight out and says 'I hate you because you're a different race to me' you cannot prove such a claim.
I fear that all the other people assigning the label are pandering to an extreme PC position which I had hoped we had gone beyond - That you must not criticise anyone not of your own national and ethnic origins for any reason, because that is racism.
I speak from experience here, when I dared to suggest that a collegue was not capable of doing the job due to the number of errors being made. That person promptly threatened me with the Race Relations Board because we were from different countries. It was a frightening time and I was very lucky to have an employer who was willing to back me up in the end. (And no, the case was never brought - too much evidence in my favour and against him.)
In all this discssion about whether what is going on in the Big Brother House is racist or not - I think we are missing a trick. I do not know if it is racist or not, but I am sure that it is bullying. Let alone whether it is acceptable for this to continue because it may be racist - I think it should be stopped because bullying is unacceptable. Shilpa's ethnicity is just the hook to hang the bullying on.
MOP:
I don't think anyone would want to trivialise or dismiss the report you refer to on Channel 4 and it probably does need to be raised further in the news profile (though it may not be regarded as 'news', being something which has been referred to regularly for some time).
The distinction, perhaps, is that the imams represent a threat to our community, while the antics on CBB and the political views of the ballerina are reflections on what is happening within our community.
Imho, the former could affect our security, while the latter are a reflection upon us as a society, i.e. our moral integrity. Speaking personally, I am very concerned about the society of which I am a part and the way that the rest of the world may, therefore, view me as a member of that society. I am, of course, also very concerned about matters which affect my security.
Funnily enough, the issues are still related: after all, is not the stance of the imams a response to the way (elements of) our society has treated Muslims, islamic nations, as well as other 'diffierent' groups?
All ingroup/outgroup stuff again ....
Jo Christie-Smith (10 as I type): You don't think Shilpa's 'exploration' could be prompted by the BB production team, do you? It looked more like a statement to diffuse an issue to me than an exploration.
Yes I believe that could easily be the case - in a manner similar to my observations in (2) above.
Sara (12 as I type): And again to my horror I find myself looking at Jade and wondering whether she is educable! I am ashamed of myself but don't have any answers.
Given absence of neurological disorders (and Jade displays no signs) I believe anyone can be taught anything, given enough time, a patient enough teacher and willingness on the part of the learner.
But the bigger question for me is "is she ready to learn?" My answer to that is an emphatic "no". She has found a level of fame and fortune which enables her to trade on her "dizziness" and ignorance by appearing in various situations on peripheral Digital channels.
I wonder how long it will take Endemol to launch Celebrity My Fair Lady and have Jade turned into a cultured, educated belle?
Sadly I believe we are headed for an increasingly "Jaded" society as parenting and respect continue to decline. The current work culture and the way food has ceased to be a shared family experience are all causes of this. Simply another way we are storing up some terrible things for our futures.
Fifi (9)
Yes, I always thought it would be a good idea to merge Tax and NI systems, but not others. It's all a front to justify the ID Cards plan, which has already been modified for technical reasons and looks set to be insecure even by government standards.
I'm sure we can get around it in some way, just as we get around the fact that grocers have to price things in Kgs. by asking for their produce in Lbs.
As an FE lecturer, I listened on Thursday to a debate my 17-18 year old tutees were having on the subject of Jade and Shilpa.
All were in agreement that what was taking place was not racist but horrible girly bitchiness. One tutee originally from Niger commented that she came from the same school (in Bermondsey I think) and Jade was typical of the girls she met there.
Not having seen Big Brother the only comment I could think of was: 'the cult celebration of mediocrity'.
And so the investigation into corruption in BAe Systems' dealings with Saudi Arabia comes back to haunt Celebrity Prime Minister Tony Blair, who had it dropped.
The OECD has "serious concerns" about CPMTB's intervention and will take "appropriate action" against the UK.
What do the Froggers think of Tony's decision?
Is it OK to break the law (our own *and* international law) by dropping a corruption investigation in order to protect...
a) trade agreements and therefore jobs
(including "if we didn't do it, the French/Germans/Trinidad and Tobagans would do it")
b) a "special relationship" with an ally in The War Against Terror...
c) Both of the above
d) We should never break laws because it removes any tenuous moral high ground we have in other international dealings.
My view is that we can't have selective laws like this short of declaring Martial Law. (And I hope I haven't given Tony an idea there...)
M.O.P (5),
"a growing army of militant extremists intent on slaughtering innocent people in the name of Allah?"
And, of course, it's just their inborn hatred of us which drives them. It's got nothing to do with centuries of being treated by us as disposable folk, mere semi-savages who are only of any use if they happen to inhabit oil-bearing regions, and are otherwise to be pushed aside and crammed into ghettoes to make room for those of our own folk we used to keep in ghettoes because we didn't want them living next door.
What difference from the "army of militant extremists intent on slaughtering innocent people in the name of 'freedom and democracy'?
I know. We've got Right on our side, as well as Might. George told me so.
Welcome to 2003. Welcome to ground zero.
ed
19/01/2007 at 13:14:16 GMT
(malicious malicious posting message received four times)5 6
Jason Good (11)
Do you work for the Home Office?
I climb in the car for the hours drive home, just for one night can I do without the entertainment that is Big Brother!
Jason - Jaded Society, that's now vying with Elvis's Revolutionary Hips from Big Sis yesterday, for Pun of the Week.
Jason (16 just now) - you say anone can learn anything if they are ready to learn. I entirely agree. It goes back to motivation. The trouble with Jade (I guess - because I don't know her, so it's a bit presumptious of me really) is that she sees no reason why she should learn. Not just academic stuff, but generally - how to behave. Perhaps she would like to look like Shilpa, but why else would she want to be like her? She doesn't like, respect or admire her. Jade herself has made plenty of money so it's not that she's after. There have been some comments that Jade hates Shilpa because she makes Jade feel insecure in some way, but I am not so sure. I think Jade seems quite pleased with herself.
No - I suspect that Jade hates Shilpa simply because she's different.
When I lived on that run-down London estate I was married to the son of one of the resident families. He couldn't read or write and was employed from time to time by a local building firm. (Don't ask me how I got there - it's a long and quite different story). I was incredibly unhappy while I was there. Nobody there liked me, they ascribed no value to any of the things I might hold dear and furthermore they didn't care - except to wonder why the hell the son had married me at all! I was young but tried very hard to fit in with them and enjoy the things they did, especially since by then I was completely cut off from my own family, so I really needed them. To be honest, I couldn't make any sense of them at all, added to which I was quite scared of the fights which frequently erupted for reasons I didn't understand. At least I thought I could help the younger boys with their homework, but even that was treated with suspicion by boys and parents alike, since they didn't really think homework was at all important. It was only done to keep teachers off one's back.
That's enough of that - it was desperate and I really can't go back there. But in such circumstances, how are hearts and minds to be won when no-one actually wants to learn or to change?
Here Kitty ... I agree with you completely. My jaw, which is pretty robust most of the time, dropped like a stone when that decision was announced.
Where does it end?
"Sorry, we won't be investigating allegations of organised crime coming to the UK from Eastern Europe, because they're in Europe now and are our economic allies" ?
"Sorry, we won't be looking further into this-or-that minister's alleged bribing by XYZ Corp because they're a huge employer in this country"?
"Sorry, we won't condemn Anonymia's aggressive action, suddenly beefing up its armies and acquiring nuclear weapons, because Anonymia is sitting on a lot of oil and it's in the UK's interests to stay pals"?
Oh. I see.
Fifi
Tom (21) Do I work for the Home Office? An amusing thought. What makes you ask? My sense of despair??
Valery (22) I try my best with the material I have at hand!
Fiona (3): Far from "lacking the brain capacity to be racist" IMHO it is often lack of brain capacity that enables people to be racist. (Note: I don't say that all people lacking brtain capacity are racist, but the majority of racists lack brain capacity. The rest seem to latch on to media reports or comments from supposedly well-informed people that stir up racism - step forward you tabloid editors and commentators).
I am quite sure that this abuse and bullying (maybe racism is just a subset of bullying and I agree with Grainne (14) on this) can be put down to these talentless so-called celebrities (oh what a degraded word) being envious of Shilpa Shetty's beauty and intelligence.
Chrissie The Trekkie -
Absolutely right - this country is now in a position where members of any minority are immune from criticism or suspicion, because if anyone dares attack them the motives are assumed to be racist (or homophobic, or religion-ist...)
When it comes to racism, it's guilty until proved innocent around here.
None of the reports I've heard convince me that these fights are racially motivated. The most racist words that have been used (to my knowledge) is Jade's mother referring to Shilpa as "The Indian" - as I understand it this woman had a problem remembering (or pronouncing) Shilpa's name, so she was just referring to her as "The Indian" to identify whom she was talking about. The fact that she couldn't cope with what seems like a fairly easy name is another matter (and shows where Jade inherited her IQ from), but that doesn't make her racist per se.
BB and all other Reality TV Shows should be flushed down the toilet.
Brand new Furrowed Brow ... and a Trellis free zone. Time to put it to the vote: what do we wish to call this place long term?
Please place your vote here, now. I'll try to keep count and will let you know the outcome. The nominations are:--
- Furrowed Brow
- Borrowed Frau
- Furry Burrow
- Borrowed Furrow
- Borrowed Frown
- Thinking Cap
- Thinking Tap
- Thinking Cup
- Think or Sink
- Jolly Frogger
- Frog n Blog
- Frog and Lilypad
- Frogs Porn Bar
- Mairs and Stallions
- Brain Drain
- Mellow Yellow
- Thinking Allowed
- Thinking Den
- Eddie's Armchair
- Round the Fireside
- Bar Room Sprawl
- Endless Debat (sic)
- * As A Newt
- Eddie's Drop Inn Centre
- Reluctant Camel
All.
Vote.
NOW!!!
Fifi xx
All the explosion over Big Brother, more PC talk so lets get really PC. John H made a long comment but refered to the fact that as a kid he was lanky. Are young goats going to take offence? ... I am sure his parents really didnt have a goat as a child.
This whole thing has got out of hand being fueld by some tabloid papers so selling more papers, channel 4 so getting more viewers but surely not PM so more people would write on the blog. But there again I did.
More support for a new minister in government. the minister for common sence.
Don't mind me I'm on a pub crawl. I like The Furrowed Brow it's a nice pint. Off to the Water Vole next.:0)
Fifi and SSC,
Dare I intimate that these matters have much to do with the deification of Trade, mentioned in last week's Brow? And, as to Free Trade, the diety of the Church of The Global Economy, a little bribery goes a long way towards free-ing it up....
Government grants enabled "Safeway鈥檚 recent decision to move supermarket goods intended for the Highlands market by train from Glasgow to Inverness. It is reported that this project alone will save 10,000 lorry journeys each year." (1999)
"It is well understood that nothing so excites the glands of a free-market capitalist as the offer of a government subsidy." -- Wendell Berry
Why is Trade so sacred? Because it enriches traders at the expense of producers, just as government enriches those who produce documents at the expense of those who actually produce things (goods and services).
xx
ed
Afternoon, everyone...
Looks like there's already four topics of discussion, so here's my tuppence worth on each of them:
1. Big Brother (TV): I can only comment based on what has been reported in the news & papers, as I do not watch reality TV (a personal choice). From what I have seen reported, I would definitely class this as bullying at the least. To me it looks like three of the "celebrities" (& I use that term in the lossest possible way) have ganged up on a fourth. The reason for this may well be a mix of jealousy and ignorance, as others have suggested. I tend to agree. Some of the comments have verged on the racist. Comments about "Indians all being thin because of undercooking food" or "they all eat with their hands" are racist imho as they make judgements about a group of people, and would be judged as racist if said about people who are african, chinese, eastern european or even the English. This shouldn't be tolerated, and Channel 4 should have done all that they could to prevent the comments being aired, and admonished the people making them. As a public service broadcaster, C4 have to do all they can to avoid such negative stereotyping being shown.
2. Big Brother (The State): I have yet to see a proper explanation as to how an ID card will actually prevent crime, terrorism, etc. As someone who works in the IT industry, I have severe doubts as to the ability of governments of any hue being able to delivery a robust IT system that meets the requirements witrhout massive overruns, extra costs and compromised security. I doubt that the idea for one central database has been fully thought through, as the IT industry has already expressed its' qualms about a smaller project for the NHS. Read through any of the industry journals, and the people who would be implementing the systems are all very nervous of the implications...
3. Radical Islam: Certainly we need to be aware of young impressionable men of any faith who are in effect groomed for the purposes of violence. However, we must also bear the responsibility for our actions that make it easier for this to happen. If we are arrogant in our dealings with their people, is it any wonder that extremists use this to their advantage? Doesn't it make sense to do all we can to remove the cause of grievances that fuel the anger of others towards us?
4. Choosing what laws to enforce: I was unfortunately not surprised when the SFO investigation into BAe was stopped. It did not help the governments' case when every time a statement was made, be it the Attorney General, the Prime Minister, or others, that they effectively said "Leave aside the affect this would have had on jobs & businesses here, it also has an impact on....". Personally, I felt that the Ethical Foreign Policy that the late Robin Cook enforced was one of the governments' greatest achievements. When he left the role of FS, that started a slide back into what comes across as murky back-room deals, expedient looking the opther way etc...
Still, ramble over. I hope I've added some conversation starters...
FFred
Who is this Jade Shetty who popped into my inbox at 14:20 after just 2 hours 22 minutes in transit? Has PM given out my work email address to a third party?
(That's about the time it took me to drive to Milton Keynes yesterday)
Frog and Lilypad, please
Well, Fifi, I rather think it's up to Mr. Mair on this one, 'cos no matter how we vote, if he doesn't play ball, it will go nowhere.
I don't think he's aware of any problems with the name - or is he?
If I'm wrong, and he does want a rename, then I'd go for the Borrowed Furrow, with a lovely rural image for the pub sign. Or a Furry Burrow, with a rabbit.
Actually, I liked Jason's Borrowed Frau, and that would be a very funny pub sign.
Fifi: I reckon sticking with what we have is the best thing for now until someone with a similarly named blog actually complains or something. Signwriters and shopfitters make enough money without us helping them! :-)
Sara (24): But in such circumstances, how are hearts and minds to be won when no-one actually wants to learn or to change?
That, indeed, is the million dollar question. It requires re-lighting the inagination and aspiration of youths who are coming through "the system" today.
I have a view about what turns kids off of education above and beyond parental and peer affects (crucial though those are) and that is how education has turned into a "test passing" machine. I see primary kids all day long. Years Reception through 5 are taught imaginative, enjoyable stuff. Then they hit year 6 and have about 30 weeks of constant preparation for SATs. They then have a summer break and are thrown into a Secondary school to sink or swim. So they grow to hate education. The jump is too wide.
My stepson left school with a better German grade than English grade, started A-levels and absolutely hated it because he had no experience of doing work properly for himself - the jump was too wide for him again. He dropped out, got a job, got a different job, is now looking for another job. Education? That is a swear word. Through all this we have tried to support him into making "sensible choices" with more or less success. In the end he will sort himself out. But, for now, it is worrying.
And he is a lad with parents who care and plenty of opportunity to "try again". Take away the parental support and place him in an inner city environment rather than a semi-rural one and there is no chance.
The answers to all this are so fundamental and structural that they are unthinkable. Things like offering kids proper vocational courses earlier on. No, not 11-plus style streaming but making more options viable for more kids sooner. Looking at why schools run how they do for the time they do (when hardly any young people actually work on farms anymore, even round here).
The changes needed would rock society - most teachers would probably walk away if forced to give up their summers, for example.
Where we have gone in coming out of WW2 and through the 1950s is to a place seen as an ideal when rejecting that rigid, class-bound world. It turns out to be better in some ways, worse in others. But no one seems to be taking this on - no one seems to look at how society is structured and whether it is sustainable. We are all too worried about making money, global warming and terrorism.
I think I need a lie down again...
Roberto: Over here we call a toilet a Bog. So, we'll flush BB down the Bog (but not down the Blog).
Fifi (30-ish):
Just to be awkward, I'll throw in another candidate:
The Frow.
It's short, it's a contraction of the Furrowed Brow, and not only follows (sort of) the forum/blog -> Frog route, it is one mere letter away from Frog. That must surely reduce our carbon handprint?
I don't think the clash was racist, more a matter of caste. Shilpa is clearly high caste whereas Jade and her 'cousins' are untouchables, or chavs as we call them in the UK. There was bound to be friction as BB makers well knew. That's surely the whole point of the programme isn't it?
Famous Goody quotes:
* "Where is East Angular, is it abroad?"
* "Rio de Janeiro - that's a person"
* "Saddam Hussein - that's a boxer"
* "A ferret is a bird"
* "I had my first birthday when I was one"
* "Who is heinzstein?"
* "The Union Jack is for all of us, but the St. George is just for London, isn't it?"
* "I am intelligent, but I let myself down because I can't speak properly or spell"
* "They were trying to use me as an escape goat"
* "Do they speak Portuganese in Portugal? I thought Portugal was in Spain"
Jason,
On the matter of farmers, I can't resist:
But of course, it's different here in the UK, and those data are out of date. It's much better now and folk have also been liberated from the torture of eating together as a family, recognising food as the flesh of the planet and other idocies as well....
Eating is an agricultural act.
xx
ed
Against the advice of Congress, his generals, his diplomats, and the respected Iraq Study Group, George W. Bush has sent in more troops to Iraq to reinforce failure. Much more of this and the White House I think will increasingly resemble Hitler's bunker.
For a start, the so-called "surge" of 20,000 soldiers into Iraq isn't a surge at all. A total of 20,000 extra troops means that never more than 10,000 will be available at any one time for frontline duties.
The Shi'ite militia must be awaiting their arrival with relish. It is too little and far too late, which means it shouldn't be done at all. The sight of a British Government meekly acquiescing in the escalation is nauseating.
Neither have the Tories much to be proud of. The only basis on which our original support for the invasion was defensible 鈥 since it was going ahead with or without us 鈥 was that we could exert some moderating influence as a major ally of the US.
British soldiers and diplomats anticipated every disaster that has occurred. The Pentagon and the White House were repeatedly warned about the dangers ahead. Not only was good advice ignored, it was treated with contempt.
Whatever its other shortcomings, the Foreign Office understands the Middle East.
There is a respect for other cultures and other societies which is reflected in our military. The US Army is a fine fighting machine but winning hearts and minds is foreign to its ethos. However much they hated Saddam, the sight of Western troops marching into an Arab country is repugnant for other Arab leaders. Regarding them as liberators was a joke.
The overthrow of Saddam needed to be handled with tact and skill. Instead, the Pentagon behaved with all the delicacy of a bulldozer. The notion that you can impose democracy by military force on unwilling peoples was always arrogant nonsense. And, significantly, when the ballot-box puts into power Hamas in Gaza,
or Hezbollah in Lebanon, enthusiasm for democracy seems to evaporate altogether.
We are now being told we must stay in Iraq in order to save it from chaos. What would they call the present mess except chaos? Telling the so-called Iraqi government to get tough with the terrorist militias is as a certain regular frogger may say "moonshine". Half of the Cabinet is in league with the militias and they have frustrated every attempt to clamp down.
The idea that 150,000 troops in Iraq can impose law and order is similarly moonshine: their biggest task now is protecting themselves. And when law and order no longer exist, power passes into the hands of the militias, mafias and warlords. The gunman is king.
Conditions for ordinary Iraqis are worse than 10 years ago. Baghdad's electricity, water and sewerage have not been restored. Billions of dollars in aid have been stolen 鈥 one billion dollars in military supplies alone 鈥 and put into Jordanian banks.
In the face of all this, to say that we must "stay the course" and "see the job through" is madness. Telling us that we must not leave until order is restored, infrastructure rebuilt, and democracy in full flower, is delusion on a grand scale.
But, whatever blunders American politicians have made, they have at least given consistent support to their military. The US military budget has been doubled since 9/11 and 30,000 more troops have been added. In Britain, by contrast, Gordon Brown cut the military budget and our men are fighting with outdated and inferior equipment. Small wonder that recruitment is down and soldiers are leaving in droves.
There is little we can do now to influence US policy, but we could at least start to show some backbone ourselves. The sight of Margaret Beckett and Tony Blair meekly defending every White House action is I think bringing Britain into disrepute. Unless we were prepared to show some guts in our relations with the United States, we should never have agreed to get involved in the first place.
Class sizes.
Jason, this is the main issue for teachers. And I suspect they'd give up their summers if they didn't have such a heavy time of it during the school year. As it is, they need a prolonged period to recuperate and catch up.
And if class sizes in the state sector were reduced to something truly manageable - which, incidentally, also means that the pupils get real access to their teacher in a way which truly helps them - then the standard of education in our schools would rise exponentially.
But it's an expensive route and one from which governments keep shying away.
Sorry about your stepson and all the other kids who are not best served at present by our educational system.
Fifi - I reckon its a done deal. The Furrowed Brow it is. I think you have made an uncharacteristic error by giving the Froggers a choice. Look at the opinions above - do you think these people will ever agree on anything??? It would be totally out of character if we did!!
Interesting, the comparison between BB and Despatches.
To me, the common factor is not racism, but Channel 4. In the case of Despatches, why would the Beeb give publicity to a rival news organisation?
In the case of BB, the story is too big, the 大象传媒 would look daft ignoring it, so surely the objective must be to make C4 look bad.
Well, if I were a 大象传媒 producer, that's what I'd be thinking, anyway. Stuff the public interest, I can land a blow here!
Thank you so much for the Goody quotes, Peter (now 41). They really did cheer me up. Jason and I seem to have got ourselves into deep despair.
Don't lie down, Jason. There's a pint of your favourite brew on the bar at the beach.
Just popped in for a look and you're all making interesting points, many worth a comment in response, but it's Friday afternoon, I've just met a deadline, I'm off soon for a beer with a chum and all is well with the world. In short, I can't bear to be serious so just thought I'd say 'hello', congratulate you all on your debating skills and bu**er off! Ciao!
A, x.
I have just read my PM newsletter and feel I must express my concern (apologies if this has already been raised as I haven't had the time to trawl through all the comments yet).
I know I have the burdon of cynicism developed over many years of disillusion, but seeing that the ratings for Big Brother rocketed with the racist controversy, I wonder just how much of it was engineered. If the whole issue was a cynical ploy by the TV company, I am afraid 2 million viewers took the bait by watching a programme they do not normally view. At least I can say, with a degree of smugness, I did not fall into the trap. I have better things to occupy me in the evenings.
Fifi (30):
For reasons obvious to those around over the New Year, I prefer the Furry Burrow...
But what about the Brown Furrow? Good for country-dwellers, methinks, and should address the Beeb's London and/or town bias so often complained of.
Fifi
Can I second the late entry of "The Frow" offered by SSC
Frog and Lilypad
Peter: Is that escape goat to be seen running along poly tunnels, I wonder?
Fearless Fred: I agree with every word, Sir.
Big Sister: I may not have come across as such but I am actually very sympathetic towards teachers as their role is no longer that of inspiring and educating but one of containment and restraining. Without any physical contact.
Class sizes is certainly part of the answer. I was thinking along the lines of having multiple teachers per class (given the hard constraint of room sizes), but smaller classes would be better. As would teaching of other kinds (like used to be had from things like Scouts/Girl Guides or whatever) that occured in afternoons/evenings to instill senses of self-pride, team working, etc.
Another would be to reintroduce "middle schools". Take year 6-8 out of their existing places and put them in a middle school. Year 9 to 11 then focus on leaving school with anything ranging from a "school certificate" of basic numeracy and literacy up to a wodge of qualifications that lead to further study.
And bring back proper apprenticeships. And so on.
Having sorted education I will work on world peace, climate change and poverty after cooking a spag bol...
Just seen the following headline on the 大象传媒 website and did a complete double-take - punctuation does matter.
"Victory in dead Israeli sperm row"
Turns out to be the case of an Israeli family whose son was killed on military service. His sperm was extracted post mortem and a surrogate has now been found to carry and raise his child.
Am I alone in finding this just a touch morbid, if not actually obscene? Should the poor lad not have been left to rest in peace and his parents have accepted that their line died with him? If it is acceptable should all soldier be required to provide sperm samples to be frozen just in case?
Fifi (30)
Could I suggest that we delay the voting for a couple of weeks and then have a proper vote on jonnie's pmblog site? We would have to wait until he gets back from his hol and the number of suggestions would have to be cut down to nine by the person who actually sends in the suggestion. Someone like yourself, perhaps?
Just a thought.
H.
Frances O (50) Brown Furrow might suggest our dealy beloved chancellor is in a rut!
Cometh the event cometh the hysteria. Diana's death; rudeness to a Bollywood Star. The frenzy is out of all proportion; this is the British culture 2007. We feel too secure and have too much spare time. Homo Sapiens is most sane when required to struggle for survival; it follows we are currently moderately insane. Nuf Sed.
Mark (49): Oh, I absolutely believe that the entire thing was engineered by the Channel 4 producers. Not so much that they told Jade et al to say stupid things (no prompting needed there!), but that they failed to involve themselves at the correct time and encouraged the media hysteria which has now dominated this week in a bid to induce ratings. The entire concept of BB is to stick unlikeable and conflicting people into a room for weeks upon end with no diversion, and then laugh/groan at the resulting wreck; it is the entire philosophy behind all reality TV shows and it keeps people watching. This series is simply an embodiment of all those principles and I bet the producers are as pleased as punch. Unfortunately no one is whacking them over the head like Punch.
"No publicity is bad publicity" after all, and even if they have lost Carphone Warehouse's sponsorship, they will easily find a replacement. I'm not sure whether to be more disgusted at the Big Brother producers, the idiotic people inside the house, the media for inflating the story or the general public who keep the ratings high, thus causing this story to continue day-in and day-out.
Hown about Frown. it could stand for Fervant Radical Opinions Within.
Frances O (50)
Did you see where whisky-joe (32) was off to on his pub crawl. I'd lock the doors!
A Listener,
Allow me to buy you a drink. i agree heartily with all but one of your statements:
"Whatever its other shortcomings, the Foreign Office understands the Middle East."
When did this understanding begin to be in evidence? Suez? Palestine? Saudi? Please illuminate us all.
Otherwise,
厂濒谩颈苍迟别
ed
And here's a wee bit of light entertainment, courtesy of al Poodle's best buddy:
And may understand the Middle East even better than the F.O.
C4's statement that it is "unquestionably a good thing that the programme has raised these issues and provoked such a debate" seems awful familiar... New Labour repeatedly claims to engender various 'big debates鈥. The declared intention certainly sounds inclusive and noble, and costs nothing, but merely announcing and actually listening are two very different things. Last week鈥檚 request for a national 鈥榙ebate鈥 on the future of the armed forces doesn鈥檛 seem to fit well with the track record of renewing Trident or the decision to go to war in Iraq, for example.
Everyone's at it, actually - William Hill spokesman Rupert Adams has announced their ethical policy on the as-yet-not-formally-convicted-of-racism-offences Jade Goody. It's refreshing to hear a representative of the UK's biggest facilitator of gambling come over like the Archbishop of Canterbury - somewhat reminiscent of the major supermarkets' attempts to portray themselves as your local community centre, or petroleum multinationals pleading that their primary motivations are ecological. Just nice to know we鈥檙e being looked after.
Anyone who keeps half an eye on Big Brother knows that each season thrives on pushing itself to new extremes, becoming the shocking hype of the period, then vanishing only to eclipse itself the next time around. Given that various political figures freely admit that they haven't watched the show before condemning various aspects of it (and joining the rush to up its ratings), one wonders if these reactions might seem a little embarrassing in future. The covert technique of making a show like Big Brother 鈥 as testified by the reactions of those who have appeared in it once confronted with the show as broadcast 鈥 is to garner such a vast footage of material that it can be modelled and presented in edited highlights which colour almost any situation or create storylines from hints and juxtapositions, then serve it up as the objective, dispassionate viewpoint of the hidden cameras.
In the past, Endemol and C4 have shown themselves to be experts at walking the line between maximum hype and crippling legal difficulties in their handling of Big Brother, and those skills certainly seem to have reached new heights this week. Meanwhile, I notice that the TV reviews have revised last week鈥檚 opinion that Celebrity Big Brother is a wash-out this year, and Endemol鈥檚 share price is up 0.9 percent to 19.6 Euros, their all-time high being 20 Euros.
Re: The Frow - tough luck if Mark Lawson was thinking of starting a blog.
Grateful pause
Re BB - I adopt the Bugblatter Beast of Thraal approach, if I can't see it, it can't see me. I already have enough trouble finding subtitles increasingly necessary for R4 programmes, without further assaulting what values, ethics, morals and understanding I have left by wasting time and energy watching what is unassailably GARBAGE. and I resent my licence money being used to add to the hype. Stop it, it isn't news, we don't care, do move on.
Oh No!!!!!!!
Lets give BB a body blow and forget where CH4 is on the TV. I just am not able to express the words that would convey my feelings on this hype. The less air time it gets the better for all.
Bring back Alf!!! At least he was funny with it.
Ah! Singing Together! The best bit of primary school!
I raise this here as it was on PM tonight, so whilst not very serious it is at least sort of newsworthy.
My favourite song learnt through singing together was Cargoes. I didn't understand a word of it but loved the idea of it and the wonder way the words worked with the music.
It is a huge shame *serious bit* that this type of programme isn't on for children now.
Did anyone see the programme where that chap took a school choir to China? It was wonderful and showed what a power music can have.
Mary
Anne P (54),
I agree it does seem a bit bizarre, but most things in that troubled land are. You have to bear in mind the demographic timebomb in Palestine. Every opportunity to breed up the Jewish population must be seized!
xx
ed
Eddie, you're not the only one who's got that rotten song stuck in your head. Can we get Charlotte to sing the headlines next week?
Brennan on the moor,
Brennan on the moor,
GPs might be paid too much,
MPs are for sure.
Brennan on the Mair,
Brennan on the Mair,
The police have nicked the PM's aide,
And now they're coming for Blair...
Hello, whisky-joe!
Humph and others voting for the FB name ... the idea of having the final vote once Jonnie's back is an excellent one.
My only reason for pushing ahead was that FB2 had been launched with the same name - and as we know, Mrs Trellis has terribly sad associations with the phrase.
So, why don't we continue with the vote for now, but regard it as a means to finding the shortlist?
I hope I have represented your votes corrently, froggers. Here is what I have counted so far (in units of 1, so 11 = 2, and 111 = 3 ...OK?) along with the names of those who've voted. If your name isn't there, and your vote hasn't been counted, it's because I'm being dense and took a comment as a non-vote....
- Furrowed Brow 11
- Borrowed Frau 1
- Furry Burrow 11
- Brown Furrow 1
- Borrowed Furrow 1
- Borrowed Frown
- Frow 11
- FROWN (Fervent Radical Opinions Within) 1
- Thinking Cap
- Thinking Tap
- Thinking Cup
- Think or Sink
- Jolly Frogger
- Frog n Blog
- Frog and Lilypad 11
- Frogs Porn Bar
- Mairs and Stallions
- Brain Drain
- Mellow Yellow
- Thinking Allowed
- Thinking Den
- Eddie's Armchair
- Round the Fireside
- Bar Room Sprawl
- Endless Debat (sic)
- * As A Newt
- Eddie's Drop Inn Centre
- Reluctant Camel
Anne P
Big Sister (3 votes, all different!)
Frances O
Jason Good
Gillian
Mark Intime
Peter Jones
RJD
S S Cat
Whisky-Joe
Fifi
PS I've written a song about my cold for the Beach. When I get the last line right, [pause for earthshattering sneeze...] I'll post it there!
Robbie (60) -
I may go for a little swim.
Mark (56) -
Perish the thought. Tsk.
btw, did you see 'The Trial of Tony Blair' last night?
Fifi-
My vote goes to
Frog and Lilypad- pleeeese win!!
Mollyxx
You might as well have my penn'rth Fifi - I rather like Frogs Pawn Bar. Are we to have a new one each week? All that moving....
If its the beach weakly - why not 'The Bar'?
Good and effective argument takes place there, doesn't it Madmary?
Its OK, I'M taking my withdrawal symptoms off home in an hour or so, so you can just ignore the Grump in the corner. The one with the VERY large scotch.
!
For more than four years, the Bush administration and its oil company cohorts have worked toward the passage of a new oil law for Iraq that would turn its nationalized oil system over to private foreign corporate control. On Thursday, January 18, this dream came one step closer to reality when an Iraqi negotiating committee of "national and regional leaders" approved a new hydrocarbon law.
And - Yeeee Haaaahh!
xx
ed
Frog and Lillypad - please?
Mary
re 65 - Singing
I can see why singing got squeezed out of the curriculum, as singing to that would have been exceedingly boring!
My memory of auditioning to join the school choir at junior school by singing Amazing Grace has scarred me for life, I was not allowed to join and was even told to mouth the words when playing my recorder at the carol concert. However I did get to make a model of a stock-car stadium with the boys and the few who weren't allowed in the choir.
"As for the underlying issue of is it or isn't it racist - until someone comes straight out and says 'I hate you because you're a different race to me' you cannot prove such a claim.
I fear that all the other people assigning the label are pandering to an extreme PC position..."
Oh dear, Chrissie (13)...just one of the many who have never been offered or taken the opportunity (by their employers) to go on a Racism Awareness course, and thus grasp the subtle nuances and learn to recognise underlying racist attitudes in themselves and others. Bullying, ignorance, want of education, class difference, poor knowledge of history or interest in other cultures, lack of opportunity and power, group and community dynamics etc are all part of it - I wish I could more adequately explain it to you! (And to the Endemol producers who don't seem to - or pretend not to - know what it is either!). I did a course in the 70s so now it's just something I "know", rather than can describe. (Can anyone, please?) I couldn't have survived 30 years in one of the poorest parts of London without it...Admittedly accusations of racism can be misused as a defence and I've experienced the same thing as you at work, and in the street, but that's perhaps more easy to deconstruct than racism itself...
BTW, can anyone tell me how the viewing figures are conjured up? Do they still use that flawed statistical tool, the sample? No one asked me what I've been watching...Is my digibox watching me?
Right, now off to watch CBB (eg, what Endemol would like me to see) and I think I might actually vote off Jade since it's been announced that the money from the phone calls will go to charity (though I'm finding that hard to believe)...Yes, maybe me and most of the employees of the London retail outlets of Carphone Warehouse (who appear to be of Asian origin, IT mad and techies through and through)...(That's an observation and is not racist, I believe)...
By the way, if you want a good example of today's media production techniques, go to an intermittently funny and almost sleep inducingly dull 90 minutes recording of the News Quiz, and then listen to it condensed to half an hour of laughs a minute in the final cut.
Meanwhile thanks to other froggers for bringing up other equally if not more important topics...Have a good weekend...x
Helly (75) Oh no, it was not boring, it was great fun. We even got to tap out the rhythm with two fingers on the edge of the desk! (Wow!) The song played this evening was a little after my time, but I can still remember some of the songs we learned through Singing Together. It wasn't the only singing we did as we used to go the Hall where the piano was, but most of the songs we learned there were for Assembly or concerts.
(70. Did you see The Trial of Tony Blair?) Yes, and wonderful, heartwarming stuff it was too. It could only have been improved upon by being a documentary. Sadly .....
On BB - the teenagers I work with were pretty unanimous that because Shilpa wasn't fat, or very thin, or anything else the three witches could have hung their unpleasantness on, they simply picked on her nationality as it was the obvious difference (to them). They too found it normal bitchy, girly bullying. However, they felt that Shilpa was far too intelligent to be behaving with as much naivety as it sometimes appeared. As she is an experienced and very successful actress, they felt she was probably "playing" these idiots with a view to getting the sympathy vote.
Vote - mine is for The Furrowed Brow, but if we have to differentiate from the other, then maybe "Eddie's Furrowed Brow" - though I'm sure he's far too young to have one.
Helly (75) - the great thing about Singing Together, at least in my school, was that we all did it sitting at our desks and everyone joined in. No-one was penalised for being out of tune, or picked on and made to sit it out. Altogether very inclusive, and from what I remember great fun. Sadly it sounds as if this sort of fun has been completely squeezed out by SATs and the like.
Re: trial of Tony Blair. If only it were true.
I thought a lot of the CBB came across as contrived again tonight. Jade is not that self-aware, I'm sorry.
What is the worst about all this is WE ARE DISCUSSING IT.
Orwell talked about how the Proles were given music and fiction to keep their minds away from worrying about the real things that mattered in life - to stop them noticing what was going on around them. Add a splash of Victory Gin and some lotteries and... Hang on.... Just a minute...
Does Gordon Brown have shares in Endemol....?
He's certainly gained a fair bit of publicity this week...
I also loved the trial of al poodle, and the characterisations of both toady and broon, not to mention the lightbulb thief, but as I noted elsewhere to Belinda, "I told you so" is a bitter dish without any true satisfaction, and although we are taught that hope is a duty, it's a difficult one.
xx
ed
Some of the young offenders I work with are arrested on charges of racial abuse, but actually are just being abusive, & using the racist phrase as an adjective. Of course this is addressed, often to total bemusement, but with a willingness to address such behaviour. Just a thought, & CBB definitely just group dynamics writ large, with 'celebs' too thick to verbalise why they find Shilpa difficult.
I do really like the Furrowed Brow, but shall leave it to others, and if admin annie has done that translation now maybe nobody will be upset. We can maintain the tone exactly as we wish, and not be offputting for anyone I hope, after all we aren't taking this CBB stuff seriously are we?!
Who is Jade Goody, or do I mean Jason Good?
Mary
Suzie Sue - Oh dear, Chrissie (13)...just one of the many who have never been offered or taken the opportunity (by their employers) to go on a Racism Awareness course, and thus grasp the subtle nuances and learn to recognise underlying racist attitudes in themselves and others. Bullying, ignorance, want of education, class difference, poor knowledge of history or interest in other cultures, lack of opportunity and power, group and community dynamics etc are all part of it - I wish I could more adequately explain it to you!
I do hope your tongue was firmly in your cheek then. After reading it twice I finally decided to laugh out loud.
We really need emoticons or smilies to help express mood and intent on here, otherwise I might get offended by the implications of that post......
I was the minority grouping in that office! Female, white, non-smoker. Sole representative of each category!
*sigh* and some things don't change in this line of business.....
Ed I. (82) I wanted to love the Trial of TB, and there were good lines in it. But I really wanted it to have more bite, which I think it would have had if it had gone for something a bit closer to reality. I don't mean removing the dream/hallucination scenes showing a man tormented by a guilt he wouldn't admit even to himself. That I think did work well. But by turning the key players into caricatures I think it actually took the edge off what could have been really sharp satire.
Anne P: re ToTB - I agree. I also think it would have given the story more bite if they went into the arguments that could be put forward for saying the war was illegal, perhaps showing how previous US/UK outrage over similar actions by other nations (e.g. USSR invading Afghanistan or Czechoslovakia or Saddam invading Kuwait) compares with this recent "adventure".
I've just seen this on the 大象传媒 News site
How can people be held for more than 4 years without trial like this? I thought that was the very point of Magna Carta?
I am all for preventative measures to stop terrorists from acting (rather than catching them afterwards) but, surely, you should only detain people for so long if you have evidence that would stand in court. Given that, surely a court should be given the opportunity to consider that evidence and determine what should happen to these people?
Jason (87),
Reading between the lines, these folk seem to have been judged too risky to allow into the country, and not 'appropriate' for refugee status. They were allowed to leave 'detention' to return to their country of origin.
I know it's far from clear, but I don't see 'our' side as having done too badly in the situation. Court or other determinations had been made and they had the choice, albeit limited, to remain in detention or return 'home' ...
No easy solutions.
ed
20/01/2007 at 12:35:30 GMT
Ed (88) the thing that worries me is that it has taken over 4 years of detention, a ruling that detention under terrorism laws was unlawful, continued detention under immigration laws...
I would agree we had done "ok" if the time scales were a lot less. Makes a mockery of the 90 days thing, really, if you can be held for over 4 years.
I always think about a "bad" government being able to act in this way, how it could hold its opponents without bringing a case before court. Which is what I thought Magna Carta was aimed at preventing.
Ed I (88) I strongly object to this sitting on the fence, and see "our" side as behaving appallingly in this situation. I agree with Jason (87) that the Magna Carta covered this, just as did the UN DofHR.
If you don't know which side of the fence is right, you put it to a court of law. We should not need hidden "Guantanamo Bays" within the UK.
Jason (89),
I agree, but it seems they were always able to walk out of detention by agreeing to go 'home'. They remained 'voluntarily' because they preferred that to facing whatever awaited them. They are obviously neither citizens nor legal residents of the UK.
As to going before a 'court', I assume they have had recourse to immigration authorities and legal assistance is also indicated. A judgement has been made that they are not allowed asylum or residence. No crime is alleged and no charges faced.
No easy solutions. Try the 'taboo' article I posted a few minutes ago, as this treats on the ethical aspects of immigration control and much else of concern.
xx
ed
Since it seems to have got caught in a bloggage
xx
ed
Sister Mary: I've already tried that joke (Good/Goody) to no avail. And I haven't repeated it because Jason didn't respond. So perhaps we'd better drop that one. ;o)
Good/Goody: B-)
Not responded as I'm so used to having the mickey taken out of my name. People insist on sticking an "e" on the end of it, which would make me a good-e.
So I had the 1970s with The Goodies and The Good Life, "Milk and Alcohol" by Dr Feelgood ("bleurgh, feel Good..." as my classmates would quip).
The absolute worst was being introduced to the editor of Nature magazine by a Prof at a uni:
Prof: "this is Jason, err, err, err, sorry I've forgotten your surname"
Me: "Good"
Prof (collapses into a heap of hysterical laughter as me and the editor of Nature look on, bemused).
Could be much much worse.
Jason: I would never, never, never take the mickey out of you. After all, your name isn't Michael.
For what it's worth, I can think of much worse (argh! - pun inintended) names, like the teacher at my school who began her time with us as Proudfoot and married to become Pratt ...... Or a teaching colleague who married a Hogg (same family as Quentin as it happens), and never revealed her married name to her pupils .....
Good is nice, believe me!
TV viewing figures:
They're provided by BARB, the Broadcasters' Audience Research Board. The viewing of a representative (their word) sample of UK people is monitored week by week and the results extrapolated from this. Official figures are published a bout a week - 10 days later; unadjusted and therefore unofficial figures (the 'overnights') are available to subscribers the next day.
Here's their website, should you want to know more:
So, Hilary's going for the Presidency after all.
Hands up anyone who believed her when she said she had 'no plans' to do so?
... hmm? ...
Thought not.
Fifi
First I'm very sorry Jason, I wasn't trying to take the p*** out of your name, it's just a bit like the other person and you have the same initials.
Second, I've been listening to the hoo ha over arrest of the Downing St woman and all I can say is that I agree with the Police Federation (not a common thing), why should she be any different to other people. A lot of my clients get arrested at 6am, so that they can be sure to find them at home (as apart from not finding them or not arresting them at work).
One benefit of arresting someone at that time is that there is plenty of time enable ongoing investigation through the day, during the interviews. And I agree that there are good reasons for arresting someone without warning so that evidence can be preserved.
Typical that this government seems to put a lot of confdence in the police except when the old bill are sniffing around their door!
Mary
Ed: re Stalking the wild taboo... I've only managed to read the first couple of parts of that but it is a bit unsettling to me.
First of all the "tragedy of the commons" makes an assumption that everyone acts in their own short-term self-interest. I am very wary about a theory which starts off with such a simplistic premise and goes on to make huge claims (much like "free market" assumptions underlying a lot of micro economic theory).
Second the part about immigration and "appeals to restrain breeding" has eery overtures of racism. The old "they breed like rabbits" type statements I can remember my parents saying when promising a neighbour they wouldn't sell their house to "Coloureds or Asians" in the early 1980s.
The discomfort of these parts coupled with lack of time made me skip the rest...
Jason (98),
Thanks for having a go. I too can feel the unease, and I know it travels in dangerous territory, but it's pretty sound science, and I hope you can steel yourself and try the other sections. The 'simplistic' premise is a very sound premise, none the less if you can allow your mind to examine it, and the examples of devastated 'commons' in the 'real world' are too numerous to ignore.
Of course, there is food for racists and others who would twist it to support their agendas - all the more reason to take it on board and be able to refute them. It does address a set of ethical questions which need to be addressed.
On a finite Earth there must at some point be zero population growth. Anyone who believes in infinite growth in a finite system must be either a madman or an economist, as Kenneth Boulding noted.
I put these essays forward for discussion because of the discomfort we feel confronting such very germane matters in our pc world. It isn't racist to consider limiting population or immigration any more than it's antisemitic to consider justice for Palestinians, but the accusation will be made in both cases.
I hope you and others can persevere. I would love to see some of the uncomfortable conclusions refuted, but avoiding the issue is avoiding the issue to preserve an illusory and unsustainable comfort.
xx
ed
Jason and all,
The article linked above is a review of Hardin's work from a source which would be expected to have an agenda, and, in part, I posted it to reveal that agenda.
is Hardin himself, and I hope at least a few of y'all can be bothered to read it. The truths it contains can indeed be twisted to racist or supremacist agendas, but they are truths none the less, and compelling in their scientific rigor.
xx
ed
madmary: no problems on the name front - as I tried to say I only didn't reply to it directly before because I am so used to it. The nerve is deadened ;-)
re: the arrest at the early hours. I do wonder where in the country she lives, where she works, and what her normal rising time would be to do her work. I well imagine she was almost leaving home for work at 6am given she has to be in Central London acting as Tony's gatekeeper.
(Arresting me at 6am would, of course, be completely different as I only stir at 0730 and then cling to the duvet until as close to 0800 as family will let me get away with.)
I do really hope that this investigation gets somewhere, I wonder how long it will be before the Attorney General speaks up and invokes some kind of Executive Privilege along the lines "this police investigation is interfering with the ability of the government to carry out its work". I cannot help thinking Al Capone in all this...
Mary (98) - This reminds me so much of the awful days of Thatcherism. When one her followers had fallen in a scandal, one MP said that he couldn't possibly have done anything wrong - "After all," he said,indignantly, "he went to school with my brother!"
It seems you don't have to wait all that long for it to come around again.
confused it's not just that this woman is unlikely to be guilty according to her colleagues, but that they should expect the police to lower their standards and work in a way which would risk them doing a proper investigation, when I don't hear from this government any outcries at the majority of criminals who are literally yanked out of their beds at 6am (and they don't work early like the Downing Street lot).
The law has recently changed so that an arrest is not now based on whether a constable has reasonable grounds for believing a person has committed an offence, but that an arrest is necessary to futher an investigation. This government brought in what I consider to be weaker grounds for arrest, but you could hear in the various party members that world "necessary". Was it necessary to arrest this woman? Possibly, given she was being arrested for a particularly serious offence. They shouldn't complain when the police use the law that this government made and appear to use it properly.
Mary
What disgusts and dismays me is the sheer hypocrisy at the 大象传媒. Big Brother is all about creating conflict for entertainment and the editors at Channel 4 have rightly been criticised for showing scenes which offend. But the 大象传媒 then took those scenes out of context and repeated them again and again, with single phrases and words repeated on the radio, with the sole intention of adding to the offence.
Then we had Question Time, in which a panel of people who had mostly not seen the show, egged on by David Dimbleby, worked themselves up into a rage against someone not there to defend herself, displaying exactly the same pack instincts that they were so roundly criticising in the Big Brother house. It was utterly disgusting to witness.
I鈥檓 not a religious person, but the Bible contains some useful advice, one of which is the phrase 鈥榣et he who is without sin cast the first stone鈥. I defy anyone at the 大象传媒, or indeed anyone who rang in to complain about Big Brother, to stand up and declare that they have never, ever, in their lives made a racist remark (judged on the same basis as Jade鈥檚 relatively mild remarks). And anyone who says 鈥楢h yes but I wouldn鈥檛 say that sort of thing on TV鈥 should watch the show and understand that it鈥檚 all about making them forget about the cameras 鈥 they are shut away together and filmed constantly for days and weeks on end, with the intention of breaking down any public presence they may have - that鈥檚 what makes it such compelling viewing 鈥 it鈥檚 simply not possible to maintain the niceties of public appearance for so long.
What we have seen is a local version of the McCarthyite witch hunts 鈥 people, both in public life and private, ganging up on the individual, someone not really much different from themselves, for fear of the spotlight landing on them if they do not.
Yes Tony (105), I agree it's got out of hand - I couldn't do the voting thing in the end, it felt like Jade was being scapegoated.
No Chrissie (85) I was being totally serious and completely up my own arse! Sorry. I really need to stop watching so much telly and start reading more, my vocabulary has gone to pot...
Just did the Chav Test and I'm 40% Chav...so that explains everything...https://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=7007
So, I haven't had a look at the brow for a couple of days, but Ed (42)
The proportion of UK population actively involved in agriculture is less than 1.5% in 2005. That's a national statistic. The number of the UK population moving to the country and then complaining about the incoveniences of agrilculture on their doorstep (the smell of ****, the number of tractors slowing down the school run, the number of townies who get upset when farmers ask them to remove their unleashed dogs from fields of cows, the number of ramblers who bemoan their inability to trample across fields of crops) to name but a few examples is about 54 million minus 1.5% (not a national statistic, just a personally observed fact.
I applaud your comments earlier, and just wish there were a few mor epeople who could see that the landscape they cherish is due to agricultural management.....
I hope the police come for me at 6:30 (should they need to). I will have been at work for half an hour!
So the Home Secretary wants to split the Home Office into two separate units - which will no doubt mean they'll know even less about what's going on in the UK. Databases have been easily and cheaply installed on computers since the early 1980's offering storage and retrieval of information, both of which can be designed for specific or general usage. So why hasn't the Home Office got to grips with this? I used to go to software user group meetings in the early 80's where everybody else was present, including GCHQ and the Metropolitan police. What the hell have they all been up to for 25 years?
I do wonder whether splitting the Home Office would have the same effect as spliiting British Rail - whenever anything goes wrong, blame the other part of the organisation.
Jason (99),
"First of all the "tragedy of the commons" makes an assumption that everyone acts in their own short-term self-interest. "
No. The tragedy is inevitable if ONLY ONE participant acts in short-term interest. That is the entire point of the argument on ethics. Ethics, if voluntary, are self-destroying because the unethical will continue to overexploit and eventually displace the ethical.
It is thus a powerful argument for compulsion, whether social or legal, since voluntary systems are doomed. discusses this with frightening clarity.
I do think this is an area of uncomfortable truth, but unavoidable truth, and cannot be ignored unless we are happy to accept the inevitable tragedy.
, said to be the most-cited article from the journal, Science.
(Science, 162(1968):1243-1248)
Simple it may be, simplistic, not. More like seminal.
xx
ed
I am just back from a brisk walk in the sunshine and bitingly cold wind, with a large red setter who hasn't had enough exercise lately owing to broken car.
Halfway round the walk, I realised it's been hours and hours since my last dose of cold remedy.
I'm better!!!!!
What I'd really like now is a large glass of Taylor's and the last of the Christmas gravadlax, curled up with some cushions in a corner of that huge sofa in front of the fire.
Anyone care to join me?
Fifi
Hi Fifi,
I'm gald you're feeling better. I hope it isn't a false dawn, but a dram never hurts (too many may) ;-)
And, while we sip our brew on the comfortable couch, warmed by the log fire, might we peruse one of the magazines left on the coffee table, with Excellent graphics including photos - a message from the mountains to the seas?
This important and realistically complex story demonstrates how change in one region of the world forces change in another region.
Anyone interested in understanding how global warming will matter on a regional level should be interested in the connection.
Vaya con Gaia
ed
Well Ed, you've hooked me in good and proper this time.
Not sure whether it's the unusual premise of the article - scientist makes unpleasant discovery when he tries to correct a 'mistake' in his research - or the sheer pleasure of snuggling up together on a very comfortable sofa, with a glass of something warming, in front of a log fire.
I'm also terribly worried about that container ship stranded off Cornwall. Surely there was somewhere they could have diverted to (whither they could have diverted, Val!) with a less huge swell until the storms had moved away?
Just goes to show -- even shipping isn't always a particularly clever way to move 'stuff' around. If we all demanded less new 'stuff' all the time, it might help.
Speaking as person currently operating on an eye-wateringly low income, it is amazing what you can do without (without what you can do!). . . . .
Fifi * chinks glass with Ed, leans back lazily, closes eyes, and hopes SO is going to get hungry soon and rustle up something to eat *
;o)
Fifi, if we all demanded less new stuff, we could make a big contribution to saving the planet. Less oil going into energy and plastics as well as transportation from China and India.
Sure, we'd probably all have to learn to get along with less income too as the economy shrinks, but then those of us who have had to survive on the 'dole' know a great deal about doing without the 'wants' and only spending our few pennies on the 'needs.'
It's not impossible and really does give you a clearer sense of perspective.
Hello to you too water vole. Have a nice swim.
A hypothetical here:
I must admit that I get concerned when I hear that everything - NHS records, governmental databases, financial transactions etc etc - are all electronic, without a 'hard copy' back-up nowadays. What would happen if the internet and all major networked computer systems and/or electrical grids were hacked into or destroyed by terrorism/some huge natural hazard? The country would completely cease to function, wouldn't it?
For people in the know, how easy would it be for all electronic systems to be destroyed by a group of highly skilled people deliberately targeting certain systems?
I just cannot shake off the feeling that the increasing 'virtualisation' of the world will lead to catastrophic results in the future, if it falls into the wrong hands. Maybe I just need another scone and less kidney-stone related disturbed sleep.
Belinda (117) - such a scenario is only 7 years old - it was called the Millennium bug.
At the time most responsible IT departments overhauled their disaster recovery plans as well as fixing any code that might go walkabout on December 31st.
Disaster recovery plans should include having paper backup systems which document the process you have computerised and tell you what to do and how to record your activity when the computer goes west. To work well it may also need a current print out of 'where you are today'.
Some companies probably do review their disaster recovery regularly, many will not and most probably don't bother with any regular paper 'dump' of current status.
So to coin an example based around Eddie's current thread on customer (non-)support, you will be able to phone up (assuming the phone works) and someone will have a paper pad on which they will write your name and a description of your request/problem/medical emergency. They may give you a reference number, but I doubt it.
They will then tell you to ring back when the disaster is over....
which if due to terrorist/cyber-terrorist attack or solar flare damage may be a very, very, very long time.
Sorry - don't mean to add to your sleepless nights, but much as I love the technology I think we have all become far too dependent on it and incapable of anything like self-sufficiency.
I love the technology I think we have all become far too dependent on it and incapable of anything like self-sufficiency.
My thoughts exactly. Thanks for the Y2K thing, I had forgotten all about that and the hoo-hah that was caused.
The question was caused by me simply calling my gas company this morning and being told that they couldn't give me any information about my account as their systems were down. I just wondered about the disaster and panic that would happen if that scenario occurred on a wide scale. I
I think that technology has it's place but transferring all knowledge to a virtual location seems quite dangerous to me. What would be a better way of crippling a country now (particularly if you wanted to invade and take over)? Blow up a few things, killing dozens of people, or blow up an electricity grid/destroy online capabilities with little loss of life (immediately) but making the country lose the ability to function on any level?
Not wishing to fear-monger, but I think the world is heading towards a melt-down at some point in the near future and it just seems to me that everyone will have become so dependent on technology, that there will be no way to cope with a sudden loss of these systems.
I'll be quiet now.
I am looking for details of the interviews on Friday 5 - 6 pm - how do I access this information?
Many thanks
I fear that so much is lodged on computers that a paper print is now impossible, and data safety depends on back-up files help separately and securely from the originals. Thus when your days work goes splat! the techies can go to the safe and drag out last night's position, copy that back onto the system and get everyone to start their day all over again.
We have become hopelessly fragile, with many people unable even to work out how to get food if the supermarket is shut. With a generation or two that have little concept of the connection between farms and the stuff on your plate, I think the population crisis could be dealt with at a stroke.
Anyone else remember that splendid 大象传媒 series 'Survivors'? Lessons should be learnt.
We have become hopelessly fragile, with many people unable even to work out how to get food if the supermarket is shut.
I can go one step further than this. I took my visiting mother food shopping at the weekend. She is elderly and has been 'technologically-active' for exactly two years of her life. She walked into the little supermarket and before any shopping had commenced, they immediately apologised saying that their debit/credit card reader was not working due to the national system being down, and they could not accept any cards.
My mother absolutely panicked and genuinely did not know what she should do in order to pay for her food. I (and the supermarket people) pointed out that she could just go to a cash machine and get money that way, but she refused to believe it, preferring to yell and cause a scene about the whole thing. It does make me wonder how the younger generation will cope -a generation who doesn't know a world without computers - if and when a melt-down does happen, if that is the reaction of my mother who really should know better.
And you know what I miss? Bank books. There was something comforting in being able to see exactly how much money was building up (or going out) in your account, written with a pen and paper. It made money feel more tangible and real in those books than the computerised statements that they have now where you can have a technical glitch and oops..your life-savings have disappeared.
I agree with the worriers about over-reliance on computers. That's why I continue to use my deeply unfashionable personal organiser rather than one of those clever electronic doobries.
The batteries can never run out, and either gadget would be equally s crewed if it fell into a bucket of water.
Now then, for those of you not frequenting the Beach today, I have brought a pot of Big Sister's marvellous chilli. No meat in it, but a lot of onions and chocolate.
There's plain boiled basmati rice on the side, and a huge tub of soured cream for those of us less able to handle spicy food.
Do dig in, and I'll just nestle another log on the fire.....
Fifi
Belinda, Anne &b Chrissie,
It's true that at some point in the future we may lose all or most of the documentation now held in electronic form. in fact, I reckon it's highly likely if not certain.
Would it really matter? Or would it be a 'wake-up call' to remind us of the relative unimportance of abstractions to concrete things like food, clothing and shelter? I wonder.
I still know how to grow (and capture/kill) food, but the fridge is full of embodied processing and foodmiles and stinks of diesel. I am enjoying Ray Mears' present series, including the grins.
Glad you liked the magazine article, Fifi.
xx
ed
Talking of Ray Mears, my SO rather unkindly remarked that, for a man who appears to live off roots and roadkill in the forest, RM's frame is somewhat on the portly side.
I pointed out that RM in fact loves his food, and was on one of the manymany weekend cooking programmes last weekend.
When he says a singed nettle leaf is delicious, he really means it!
But am I the only one who wonders if he is related to Adrian Chiles?
Has anyone seen the two of them together in the same room...?
Fifi (pass the port, Ed, will you? ta)
Talking of Ray Mears, my SO rather unkindly remarked that, for a man who appears to live off roots and roadkill in the forest, RM's frame is somewhat on the portly side.
I pointed out that RM in fact loves his food, and was on one of the manymany weekend cooking programmes last weekend.
When he says a singed nettle leaf is delicious, he really means it!
But am I the only one who wonders if he is related to Adrian Chiles?
Has anyone seen the two of them together in the same room...?
Fifi (pass the port, Ed, will you? ta)
Technology...
When I went freelance I decided to voluntarily register for VAT as it meant I could save some money on my purchases and, as I target primary schools, not worry about prices rising as my customers don't pay VAT.
Anyhoo, because of all the VAT frauds going on I had to have a home visit from the VAT lady. Much like getting a rescue dog, I presumed she was going to check I had a garden fence and knew to give my books fresh water morning and night. No - she just wanted to check I existed.
"So,Mr Good," she said, "what computer programme will you be using to process your accounts?"
I looked blankly at her. I fix computers for a living. Because they break all the time. I am using an accounts book and a pen and a calculator...
What do you mean maurine martin? You could listen again using Real Player, or do you want some background information about them, in which case why not email pm?
Mary
Wise man that Jason (127) -- thanks for the chuckle.
It's comic book time!
for dummies!
xx
ed
Ed : it seems one of the Great Thinkers has pinched your idea.
"There's a worldwide shortage of diamorphine for medical uses ... but hold! ... what about all those poppies in Afghanistan....."
Quick! Say something about world peace and reversing global warming!
We could be out of the woods by this time next month!
Fifi
One day, a big boat carrying presents to Portugal got its weather forecast a bit wrong and fell to bits in the sea.
Lots of presents, not all of them broken, washed up on the shore of a nearby island.
"Oh dear!" said Mr Penpusher from the Council. "It's going to be very expensive to clear that lot up and store it neatly, before Ms Clipboard the loss adjuster can go through it all piece by piece and declare each present 'rubbish'. And then we'll have to landfill all of it - who's going to pay for that?
"Whatever shall we do?"
Mr Penpusher was very anxious, because the Council had to balance its budget or else he'd get the Naughty Cap.
So he prayed for a miracle.
Look what happened next, children! Out of the burrows and cottages, out from behind gooseberry bushes and leafy tussocks, there crept lots and lots of Little People.
Without asking to be paid or even thanked, they picked through the broken presents and spirited away 4x4 cards, motorbikes, barrels and nappies.
Night after night, they stripped the untidy beach of bottles of shampoo, wing mirrors, garden furniture and wine bottles.
Mr Penpusher was convinced it was a miracle, partly because he tended to be facing the wrong way to see anything. When he turned round, all he saw was the pile of broken presents getting smaller and smaller.
Then Ms Clipboard arrived. She looked at the beach and said: "Oi, matey, where's all me stuff? I've got to account for it you know, or the insurance companies won't pay out."
Oh dear. Poor Mr Penpusher. He was even more worried now. He decided he had better get very angry and make a lot of noise, in case anyone thought he had been a bit silly before.
"All you Little People!" he shouted at the top of his voice. "Stop it, you must leave that stuff alone, it's not yours!"
It was as if Mr Penpusher weren't even there. The Little People couldn't hear him and carried right on tidying the beach.
Ms Clipboard stared at Mr Penpusher. "Who are you shouting at?" she asked.
Because suddenly, she couldn't see the Little People either. In fact, she had written on her clipboard:
'A big wave carried the whole lot away and we all lived happily ever after. Recommend full payout.'
THE END
by Fifi
Either you're all feeling intimidated by my casually posting such a masterpiece of literary endeavour two hours ago ... or the pixies are at it again.
Who's for Elevenses?
Fifi ;o)
Fifi : I posted this on the Beach in response to your posting there, but since you appear to be alone in the pub at the moment, I'll repeat here.
re 132 - Lovely fairytale, but sadly that's just what it is. In real life, the little people carry off the bits they want, and leave the real litter behind. Just as is happening in Lyme Bay right now. And, if it were possible, making a bad situation even worse environment-wise.
I can barely conceal my anger at yet another example of the 'Me me me' mentality which blights life and which, sadly, is today regarded as something aspirational. It is theft, these goods belonged to others - and even if they were big multinationals (which wouldn't have been the case for everything), there is absolutely no excuse for theft.
What a pity that these folk didn't put their energies into helping to mitigate the effects of the wreck upon the environment, the birdlife, etc., instead of pandering to their worst instincts and leaving behind them piles of packaging, unwanted items to bob out into the sea, etc., etc.
Fifi at 132 - what a lovely story! But I think you misread what Ms Clipboard wrote. It was:
'A big oil slick came and covered it all up.'
Then Ms Clipboard ran away and all the birds which hadn't already been covered flew away and the black beach lay silent.
All the little people who hadn't made it down there looked the other way and said "How sad. Someone else will have to tidy it all up now."
Fifi (the story): I'm loving the idea of 4x4 cards - perhaps we can send one to Lissa up Eccles Pike. I imagine it is the only greeting able to cope with this weather...
It was literary genius Fifi!
Of all the items on tonight's programme, I was most deeply affected by that concerning the fate of the stray greyhound which was handed into an Edinburgh police station and died of starvation and lack of water because they "forgot about it" for 10 days.
The horrible thing is that, because of it's nature, (they are largely silent) it had no way of drawing attention to it's plight.
I expect the enquiry will produce the usual twaddle about 'a breakdown in systems' etc. I do not know if you are able to follow up up stories like this - perhaps not - but it would be interesting to know the outcome.........say, a reprimand accompanied by 10 days without food and water?
chLuke I only caught the end of the story, and thought I must have got it wrong. What a terrible thing to do and there can be no excuse about breakdowns of systems.
Mary
And they said Americans were strangers to irony!
Who's attempting to dominate the region?
ed
24/01/2007 at 01:17:00 GMT
Chluke (138) ff
What would happen if an private citizen left a dog to die? Probably the RSPCA would spend dozens of thousands of pounds prosecuting, and a suitable fine would be extracted from the citizen. Maybe the Police will pay up without putting the RSPCA to the expense.
I just wonder how they discovered their terrible mistake - was it the next time they had to house a stray dog?
Someone is going to have this on their conscience for a long while.
I think it's probably a tragic combination of circumstances.
The police are probably not well used to taking in strays, which usually go to other agencies. The kennel provision is probably pretty basic and not central to the main activity areas of the station.
Add to this the docile, quiet nature of the breed - a greyhound will lie quietly shivering without even a whimper, and the tragedy unfolds.
Sad indeed, but it's pointless to seek around for someone to thrash.
xx
ed
Chluke (138) I didn't hear the story but I presume this was not deliberate but someone's, or a succession of, terrible mistakes. I agree that they should be more careful and it shouldn't happen.
The police still have a responsibility to deal with stray dogs but in my experience will try to avoid it at all costs. In addition, there are so many latch-key and stray dogs that RSPCA and rescue centres are full to overflowing in most cities - we see several stray dogs a day brought in as traffic accidents.
Unfortunately I've also seen similar things happen deliberately - people starving dogs (we are involved with one case at the moment which will go to court), shooting cats with airgun pellets, stringing up cats in trees, setting dogs onto cats, and several cases of people deliberately poisoning, shooting and stabbing animals.
As for the dog whose owners were prosecuted for making it obese, well there are plenty of other people like them, and it's often a losing battle persuading them that their animal is suffering in their hands.
We are also, presently, in the midst of euthanasing several dogs a day whose only crime is being 'of a Pit Bull terrier' type - dogs now being handed in to the Police. This is the direct result of a ridiculous law which hasn't been enforced for years and is now the focus of a major clampdown.
And don't get me started on the breeding of pedigree dogs with such severe defects (in the name of fashion) that if a scientist did the same to an animal in a laboratory they would get a bomb under their car - I could go on....!!!
Okay folks, what we need in the midst of all this seriousness is a hearty, warming meal.
Having just tried Big Sister's Chilli again, about 5 days after making it, it has mellowed and developed and tastes wonderful.
The rice will be ready in 15 minutes, and there's some garlic bread warming in the oven for those who'd like some. It's a little spicy (less so than when newly made) so there's a generous helping of soured cream in a bowl as well.
I'll just leave it all out for you on this sideboard in the corner, next to the fire, and you can help yourselves.
Meat eaters won't even notice the lack of body parts in there -- trust me!
And if anyone wants the recipe again, I can post it here or email privately.
Cheers!
Fifi xx
Carbon offsetting. It's like taxing road use. Makes no over-all difference to the outcome, it just turns travel into a Stock Market tradeable commodity, and the net outcome is still a ducked* planet.
* FRS
Individuals can make themselves feel better by carbon-offsetting ... but add them all together and they won't make enough difference to counterbalance what big business is doing!
Big old red herring. Equally smelly. Take note, Mr A Blair. How much CO2 has he been responsible for, in his time of office, since he never seems to spend more than 20 minutes in any given day in the UK?
All carbon-offsetting contributes to this debate is a way to convert CO2 emissions into something monetary. How many trees would you have to plant, to offset one transatlantic journey?
How long will those trees take to make up for the carbon footprint anyway? And in the UK, where we are supposed to build build build to accommodate the 'demand' for houses (but heaven forfend, no services infrastructure or flood defences!) where are they supposed to be planted anyway?
Oh, I know. The Third World. Where they're decimating the forests to satisfy the First World's demand for wood. And to clear the rainforest to grow cheap soya to feed our livestock. Soya's a cash crop to those countries, whereas the rainforest is just 'there'.
No, not Ed Iglehart here.
Fifi! :o(
Interesting programme on air travel on the box last night. One carbon offset scheme was providing solar power in the third world to help reduce lung disease from fumes and provide more time for children to do homework in the evenings.
But hang on a minute, we could give them the money for the solar power schemes AND stop flying. How about that for a solution.
The family who were asked to take the train to Italy rather than fly actually found they enjoyed the experience, despite some problems, and felt that their holiday started as soon as they left home, rather than when they arrived after an exhausting struggle with airports and flights. What was not discussed of course was the relative costs - no contest while air travel is not taxed like other forms of transport.
As usual however there is a developing world aspect to it all. I had not realised the extent to which the pressure for cheap air travel was reaching India and other like countries.
If you had to choose between 20 hours on a crowded, smelly train in the full heat of India or 2 hours on a brand new air-conditioned plane.....
Thanks Fifi and Anne,
Seems I don't need to rant myself except perhaps to remind us of Oliver Rackham's comment that planting more trees to offset carbon dioxide emissions is equivalent to drinking more water to offset rising sea levels.
And perhaps I might note that some cropland is being lost to food to grow ethanol so Shrub's folk can cut their petrol use (but still emit CO2)...
And re-post .
xx
ed
Fifi (146)
The problem with planting trees to offset the carbon emission from aircraft flights is that it simply does not work! The part of the atmosphere that we live in, and where trees grow, is called the troposphere. The part of the atmosphere where most of a trans-Atlantic flight takes place is called the stratosphere and the two DO NOT MIX! There is a temperature inversion as you increase altitude which prevents the mixing and works to our advantage in that we do not get freezing temperatures every time that the sun sets, even in the summer. It also causes the flat top of storm clouds as the moisture has reached as high as it can get. There is some transfer between the two layers, evidenced by the fact that we can measure totally manmade molecules such as CFCs in samples collected in the stratosphere, but it is not clear whether this is done by diffusion (two-way transfer) or dialysis (in one direction only). However, even if it is diffusion, dump CO2 and other jet exhaust fumes in the stratosphere and they are going stay up there for a very very long time, trees or no trees.
H.
And the problem with bio-ethanol, apart from the fact that you can't fly planes with it because it freezes, is that it depends on monoculture, which in turn depends on large amounts of artificial fertiliser. And guess where we get that from - oil of course, and how much energy does it take to make it?
We really do have to learn that you can't get owt for nowt.
It's no fun when we all agree to agree.
xx
ed