On this St George's Day, we're toying with an item for the programme tonight about whether England needs an anthem of its own - as opposed to God Save The Queen which is the UK anthem. We'll try to post some tunes here later. In the meantime, although we're assured the Blog will never revert to September again, the news came too late for this item which just came in the mail....
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PM Blot! Good one, Franz Lieber.
Excellent blot.
Are we to say what we think it looks like and reveal our inner secrets?
As for an English National Anthem, hasn't this rather been done to death on several other programmes, including, perhaps, the Today prog?
However, whatever keeps the programme on air. Jerusalem, anyone? With optional jam.
It's nice to see all the journalists gathered in Islamabid in support of Alan Johnston.
Report on News 24 from Damian Grammaticus.
Ohmigod. That blot, it's a camel break-dancing!
Si.
It looks like a mangy dog's head to me (snout to the left).
Theme tune to The Archers. No words to remember just a few dun de dums!
Blot - thats art surely?
As for anthem, I think we need a new one full stop. Something about the country and its people, something national as opposed to something glorifying a herditary monarch. Not sure about Jerusalem...haven't we got a musical figurehead that could write something new - specfically designed for purpose?
Oh, I think I nearly ranted best go!
It's beardy bloke being thumped (fist to the left, face on the right). Do i win a prize?
given that the combination of forum and blogger gave "frogger", I fear we should stay away from the blot.
For those who are uncertain why, is urban dictionary's definition of the resulting term!
I always think the UK national anthem is a bit grim, and I'm always envious of opposing teams' anthems in the 6 Nations Rugby competition. I usually sing along with "Flower of Scotland", which always makes me feel much better.
The trouble is - and I think this is a wider debate - that the English simply aren't as good at getting up and singing along as the other countries that make up the UK are - somewhere along the line, we've lost that part of our heritage, and so we're stiff-upper-lipped and downright embarrassed about singing anything at all.
Not interested in an English national anthem, although I suppose we could aways borrow Ode to Joy now Europe no longer wants it.....
Then again Jerusalem does quite nicely for me.
Very happy to swap that nasty Communist May day bank holiday for St George's day though. I love fixed date holidays that wander through the weeks creating havoc!
Message from the Naughty Corner for Stephen, Leader of STROP "Come on over, we're budging up..." :-)
Anything, anything; as long as it does not mention King, Queen, Prince, Princess or Lady Di.
Figgle, Stehen. How's life on Pluto?
Stephen - hail Leader - thanks for sharing that with us. After that, perhaps, I shouldn't bother saying what the blot looks like to me. If you view it upside down though, and readjust bifocals to compensate, the blot looks like one of the Shoe People. Remember them?
Somebody, please tell me to get back to work....
Good Luck on the segment of the English National Anthem.
But you should continue to do segments to get Alan Johnston released.
Also, there should be a segment on Chavez attempting to close RCTV [Venezuela], Castro repressing dissidents [Cuba], Republicans/Democrats blocking Libertarians and Greens in US Elections.
Appy (8) I did not realise that you took a photo when you hit me on comment 14 of Pip removal. And no you should not get a prize. Rewarding violence just sends the wrong type of signal.
H.
Eddie,
Will you revert to September around September time or will you skip it and go straight on to October?
Regarding an English anthem, maybe something by Elgar. I quite like the Nimrod section of the Enigma Variations. Some suitable words could be written to reflect whatever it means to be English.
I meant giggle, Stephen. But I quite like 'figgle'
"Jerusalem"?
Your Patron Saint (how very mediaeval!) is Turkish, and now you want an anthem about a foreign city that has blog-all to do with England?
A version of the Archers theme would work well:
"We hate the French,
We hate the Dutch,
We hate the bloody Germans,
We hate the Spanish, Greeks and Turks,
We hate Australians too,
Yanks annoy us, the Japs employ us, the Scots are too close by half,
We wish they all would go away, the rest of the world's just naff!"
(Have we done this before? I'm getting deja vu again)
Agree with David (13) - I think we should proclaim our loyalty to the country, not its unelected head of state. Vive la republique! (Sorry, came over all French elections there...must be time for my medication.)
The blot is obviously a rather scruffy wren (England's most common bird?
I think Jerusalem is a great choice - an Anthem about building a better world, about improving the lot of all those who dwell in our "green and pleasant land". What could be more appropriate?
Having said that, 鈥淕od Save the Queen鈥 would be a lot more palatable if we returned the tune to its folksong routes. It's always sung at such a dirge-like pace that everyone's lost the will to live by the time we get to the end of the first verse. It needs to be done at 3 times the speed. That way it becomes a nice jolly little waltz, rather than the funeral march we usually hear.
SSC (20,
How about substituting thus:
We're better than the French,
We're better than the Dutch,
We're better than the bloody Germans,
We're better than the Spanish, Greeks and Turks,
We're better than Australians too,
...
and you should fit the Welsh in somewhere.
;-)
ed
SSCat (congratulations by the way on your extra working hours- that is what it meant, isn't it?) I LOVE that National anthem. Brilliant. It would also make a good football song, surely. Isn't there a second verse? You haven't quite insulted everybody yet.
Re the ink blot. Now I'm really worried there's something dreadfully wrong with me. I looked at it & saw - well, just an ink blot. Try as I might, there's nothing else.
However, I'm just making mousetraps (you know - bread spread with chutney & cheese, baked in the oven till it goes crispy) & I see the grated cheese on one has formed itself into the very image of Boris Yeltsin's head. Spooky.
Or:
We tolerate the French,
We tolerate the Dutch,
We tolerate the bloody Germans,
We tolerate the Spanish, Greeks and Turks,
We tolerate Australians too,
At condescending we're the best,
As Welsh and Scots will know,
It's such a pity what was lost,
When we let the Empire go...
Annasee - never heard of mousetraps but they sound fab...definite beach fare!
Val P (15) GET BACK TO WORK!*
Humph (17), if that is a photo of my fist and you I am very worried! Anyway, I didn't really hit you; I went to give you a hug and I slipped... *looks at the sky and whistles*
SSCat (20) Hahahaha!
*Um, that goes for me too.
I don't believe in God and I'm not in favour or the monarchy, so I don't exactly identify with the current anthem, whether it's attached to England or the UK.
Musically speaking, national anthems tend to be mediocre at best, and many are among the worst pieces of music you're ever likely to hear. Furthermore, they appeal to the worst gung ho instincts of the least thoughtful members of society.
Surely international sportsmen aren't so lacking in motivation that they need an awful tune to gee them up before a match? If we must have one, I vote for the Laurel and Hardy theme. At least it would show we have a sense of humour.
Ed (24):
Ah, but that would be crossing into the territory of the wonderful Flanders and Swan, and I'm not fit to wallow in their (glorious) mud:
"The English:
The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker as likely as not
The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest..."
Absolutely agree that we need a change of National Anthem; it is long overdue. We could still keep God Save Our Queen for certain royal occasions.
Happy with Jerusalem or I Vow to Thee My Country. Both have the most beautiful, melodic and emotive tunes, unlike God Save Our Queen.
A new english anthem ah? Well I'm all in favour of adopting a great existing tune English.
here are some options:
The Doctor Who Theme.
England Swings like a pendulum do.
The Chicken Song from Spitting Image - altogether now - Throooooow a chicken in the air, stick a deckchair up your nose.......
Anything by the Beatles.
Move It by CLIFF RICHARD.
I am dismayed by such continuing debate, which plays into the hands of those in Scotland in particular, who want to break the Union. There is not an English anthem because in the past we have not needed one - has not nationalism always been the last refuge of the scoundrel? Yes I am English, and home was Staffordshire, but my identity is primarilly British, - and my family background includes a great proportion from Ireland Scotland and Wales, If most Scots want to place their Scots identity first, - if they do- fine -( I wouldn't mind if they used 'God Save the Queen' though) but why should I have to do the same? - we actually are 'family'. If 'They' decide there has to be an 'English' anthem let it be 'Jerusalem'- even though archaic at least it strives to make our local bit of the world a better place, is not boastful or pouring ridicule on others. PS what do we do about cricket, - the England and Wales cricket board?
Absolutely agree that we need a change of National Anthem; it is long overdue. We could still keep God Save Our Queen for certain royal occasions.
Happy with Jerusalem or I Vow to Thee My Country. Both have the most beautiful, melodic and emotive tunes, unlike God Save Our Queen.
Just thought I'd drop this into the pool:
God Save the King/Queen was originally a Jacobite song, but got recycled by the other side
(stands back to see if there are any ripples)
Re: English National Anthem - please take care to be correct, bot the Lib Dem MP and the Presenter referred to "God Save the Queen" as the UK National Anthem - it is not, it is the "Royal Anthem" - which Canada, Australia etc. have equal right to use. We do in fact need a British National Anthem, and an English Anthem in addition tot he Royal Anthem. My vote would be : "There will always be an an England."
Thank you.
I am very much in favour of an English National Anthem for all the reasons cited by Greg Mulholland. My preference would be 鈥淭here鈥檒l always be an England鈥 or some other tune with which everybody is familiar and can therefore instantly relate to. A new anthem written specially would have to be exceptionally outstanding and inspirational to gain immediate acceptance which would be necessary for it to have the desired appeal.
Whilst on the subject I firmly believe that the current national anthem is well past its sell by date. The tune is boring and the words are uninspiring. In today鈥檚 world the anthem should be about such things as culture, history landscape and beliefs. It should not be about the monarch however much they are revered. Perhaps you would like to take up the baton for a new UK Anthem also? You would certainly have my support.
I am very much in favour of an English National Anthem for all the reasons you cited by Greg Mulhooland. My preference would be 鈥淭here鈥檒l always be an England鈥 or some other tune with which everybody is familiar and can therefore instantly relate to. A new anthem written specially would have to be exceptionally outstanding and inspirational to gain immediate acceptance which would be necessary for it to have the desired appeal.
Whilst on the subject I firmly believe that the current national anthem is well past its sell by date. The tune is boring and the words are uninspiring. In today鈥檚 world the anthem should be about such things as culture, history landscape and beliefs. It should not be about the monarch however much they are revered. Perhaps you would like to take up the baton for a new UK Anthem also? You would certainly have my support.
Can we just review that for a moment, Appy (28)? You catch me with a smart left hook. You claim that you "didn't really hit" me. You leave me with a broken and bloody nose. And you say that YOU are very worried?!? Please remind me not to be in the area whenever you want to slice salami. By the way, would the tune that you were whistling make a good National Anthem?
On the subject of a National Anthem, I have to say that the F&S song would get my vote, SSC (30). Especially considering the last verse:
And all the world over, each nation's the same.
They've simply no notion of playing the game.
They argue with umpires. They cheer when they've won.
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun.
As one of the reasons given for the introduction of an "English" national anthem is so that we have something to sing before sporting events I think this would set the tone nicely.
H.
More votes for "Jerusalem".The thing is, unless you're a bit loony like Willy Blake was, the song should really run thusly:
"And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon England's mountains green?
No, they didn't."
That'd be a bit short.
I second Humph's entirely logical proposition of the Flanders & Swan song.
Billy Connolly supplied the answer a number of years ago (albeit as a National Anthem replacement) and that is the tune to "The Archers" with the words being simply "Rum te tum te tum te tum" etc. He pointed out that it had the twin merits of being a lot livelier than "God Save the Queen" as well having easily-remembered lyrics. I can already hear the crowd at an England-France fixture; the Marseillaise at one end being countered by a lusty "Rum te tum te tum te tum" at the other.
Humph (39) "Please remind me not to be in the area whenever you want to slice salami." Priceless! Hahahaha! :-)
What about "Always look on the Bright Side of Life"?
Great tune, cheerful words.
What's that you say? Someone's already used it? When? Who? Surely no-one would be so cheeky...
At 03.04 James suggested something by Elgar for an English National Anthem. The following is one of his works although I don't know who wrote the words.
I learned it at school in 1943 or thereabouts.
It comes from the misty ages
The banner of Englands might
The blood red cross of the brave St George
That burns on a field of white
It speaks of the deathless heroes
On fames white page enscrolled
And bids great England
And bids great England ne'er forget those glorious deeds of old
O ne'er may the flag beloved
unfurl in a strife unblessed
Ever give strength to the righteous arm
And hope to the ??? to the ??? opressed
It says to the ??? (ages)
Be brave be brave like the soldier saint
like the soldier saint whose cross of red still burns on our banner white
I believe there is another verse.
I wager that its new to nearly all readers
Whoops! I was just looking for info on the English National Anthem when I fell into the glass box Eddie 's been mentioning...[looks around] Nice place you've got here...
Lazybugg's a bit upset with the Welsh because the school her son attends were not impressed with his 'Made in England' shirt. I've told her about the English anthem campaign and directed her here....
Moderation? Cowards!
[Suzee wanders off trying not to get too excited at Eddie Mair's name and wonders if the moderators are very strict, or (sharp intake of breath) whether Mr. Mair is a moderator himself....]
Ah but this is not the Glass Box Suzeemoon. But you're close. :-)
Eddie,
I think Rose of England should be given due consideration for the English national anthem.
This is the refrain...
Rose of England, thou shalt fade not here,
Proud and bright from rolling year to year.
Red shall thy petals be as rich wine untold
Shed by thy warriors who served thee of old.
Rose of England, breathing England's air,
Flower of Chivalry beyond compare;
While hand and heart endure to cherish thy prime,
Thou shalt blossom to the end of Time.
Trouble is. It was written by a Welshman. :-(
Okay, all this national anthem stuff, lyrics, etc., has reminded me of something I read as a child while living abroad.
Scene: Classroom in a Primary School, Durban
An avid reader, I'd found in the book cupboard entitled "Where the Rainbow Ends", by Clifford Mills, a very Edwardian children's book. [I have only just found out, by doing a search on this, that it was originally a play written to be acted on St. George's Day - so, how very appropriate!]
I won't bore you about the story - indeed, I can hardly remember it - but it included a poem which, as a small child far from home, gave me a lot of comfort. I hope I can remember all the words and will try to post in a mo.
While we're on the subject, I think Scotland's dreadful anthm should have it's words changed to the (I think) Ronnie Barker version:
"Land where the hands are clapping,
Land where the toes are tapping,
Land where the Jocks are strapping,
Scotland the brave..."
David (33) re your point about nationalism being the last refuge of the scoundrel:
I would argue that nationalism is a refuge for those who feel under threat from other nations. England has not had the same need to assert its distinctiveness like Scotland, Ireland and Wales have. After all, it is not England which wants to tear itself away from another dominant nation.
I am sure that if fears about European federalism increase, then so will English patriotic fervour.
Is this a safe point to admit that:
a) I don't know the words to 'Scotland the Brave'?
b) I can't abide 'Jerusalem'?
c) I think 'Ernie, the Fastest Milkman in the West' is a better contender than anything mentioned thus far?
A, x.
Tried to post this earlier and it didn't appear. You're probably all gasping to read it (!)
This is what I can remember of the poem by Clifford Mills
------------------------------------------------------
From 鈥淲here the Rainbow Ends鈥 by Clifford Mills
Child of the Empire where ere you may roam
This is a message that comes from your home
Those little grey islands washed by the North Sea
Where the flag of Great Britain rides out on the breeze.
Near or away, afar or beyond
A Briton鈥檚 word is a Briton鈥檚 bond
He cannot be bought and he cannot be sold
There ne鈥檈r shall be truth held second to gold.
Small are the isles that encradled your race
Mighty the Empire in which you have place
Seek here in this message which made Britain great
And keep faith with your fathers, whatever your fate
Carry on! Carry on! Carry on!
------------------------------------------------------
Well, I was only seven and very homesick. But it did help me to cope as a stranger in a foreign country, and obviously meant a lot to me at the time for me to be able to remember that much of it even now.
As an outsider in this debate I can only say that I think that Ap (51) has come up with a splendid suggestion. I mean who can possibly forget those lyrics:
Now Ernie had a rival
An evil looking man
Called Two Ton Ted from Teddington
And he drove the bakers van
He tempted her with his treacle tarts
And his tasty wholemeal bread
And when she saw the size
Of his hot meat pies
It very near turned her head
She nearly swooned at his macaroon
And he said now if you treat me right
You'll have hot rolls evry morning
And crumpets every night
He knew once she'd sampled his layer cake
He'd have his wicked way
And all Ernie had to offer
Was a pint of milk a day
Poor Ernie (Ernie)
And he drove the fastest milkcart in the west
RJD:
What if you don't drink milk?
BTW, I'm most surprised at Appy suggesting this, being (as it was) David Cameron's choice on his Desert Island.
Have you changed sides? ;o)
RJD - so, I take it you remembered that one off by heart too did you? Takes all sorts ;-)
Big Sis (54) - Look, you don't have to DRINK the milk!
She said she'd like to bathe in milk
He said alright sweetheart
And when he finished work one night
He loaded up the cart
He said you wanted pasturised
Coz pasturised is best
She says Ernie I'll be happy
If it comes up to me chest
And that tickled old Ernie (Ernie)
And he drove the fastest milkcart in the west
It'd bring me out in a rash, RJD.
How about this instead?
Oh, I find much simple pleasure when I've had a tiring day
In the bath, in the bath!
Where the noise of gentle sponging seems to blend with my top A
In the bath, in the bath!
To the skirl of pipes vibrating in the boiler room below,
I sing a pot-pourri of all the songs I used to know,
And the water thunders in and gurgles down the overflow
In the bath, in the bath!
Then the loathing for my fellows rises steaming from my brain
In the bath, in the bath!
And condenseth to the Milk of Human Kindness once again
In the bath, in the bath!
Oh, the tingling of the scrubbing brush, the flannel's soft caress!
To wield a lordly loofah is a joy I can't express.
How truly is it spoken, one is next to Godliness
In the bath, in the bath!
Then there comes that dreadful moment when the water's running cold
In the bath, in the bath!
When the soap is lost forever and you're feeling tired and old
In the bath, in the bath!
It's time to pull the plug out, time to mop the bathroom floor.
The towel is in the cupboard, and the cupboard is next door!
It's started running hot! Let's have another hour or more
In the bath, in the bath!
I am not too sure if I am losing the thread here Big Sis (57) but is that meant as a suggestion for the replacement English National Anthem? I just feel that it might lack that certain something if you try to get tens of thousands of people singing it just before a rugby match.
H.
What about getting Eric Clapton to sing this one?
A mother was washing her baby one night;
The youngest of ten and a delicate mite.
The mother was poor and the baby was thin;
'Twas naught but a skeleton covered with skin.
The mother turned 'round for a soap off the rack.
She was only a moment but when she turned back
Her baby had gone, and in anguish she cried,
"Oh, where has my baby gone?" The angels replied:
Oh, your baby has gone down the plug hole.
Oh, your baby has gone down the plug.
The poor little thing was so skinny and thin,
He should have been washed in a jug, in a jug.
Your baby is perfectly happy;
He won't need a bath anymore.
He's a-muckin' about with the angels above,
Not lost but gone before.
Humph (58) really? I think it would sound great; almost as good as Maurice Sendaks 'Chicken Soup with Rice' (although not particularly patriotic it'd be great to here en masse)
Humph: Can we agree that neither my, nor RJD/Appy's suggestions would work in a rugby match?
No, as an English national anthem I'd probably plump for something like the first verse of I Vow to Thee My Country, on the grounds that it exists, covers the territory pretty well, and is melodic. It would sound well in a stadium, too.
However, I think we'd have to ditch the second verse (There's another country, etc.) if we were going multicultural and didn't want to alienate those of no faith.
Jerusalem is lovely, but goes a bit off the point. God Save the Queen is a bit tedious and plagiarised.
I'll put my thinking cap on and see if I can come up with some 'sensible' suggestions.
This ISN'T the glass box? I thought it said it was - Now I'm really confused...
[Suzee wanders off looking for the glass box trying to remember th words of 'Jerusalem' from her brief time as member of Radyr WI....]
Replacing the National Anthem - why not use Ivor Novello's 'Rose of England' which does not mention Scotland or Wales and is most appropriate in view of their promised impending devolution
Humph (58) But surely that's what all those hunky rugby men sing after the match?
Or have they all got showers now?
Good point, Gillian. 'In the Bath's back in contention.
RJD: That suggestion's just silly. And it's thin-ist
Aperitif (51):
a) I don't know the words to 'Scotland the Brave'?
That's OK, nor do I. Nor "Weed of Scotland".
I can hum the theme to "Dr Finlay's Casebook", if that's any good.
I am afraid I do not know about that, Gillian (64). Maybe you could look into it for us? I still say that the National Anthem is sung at the start of the event and so I maintain that this is not a suitable candidate. However, I am willing to let others have their opinion too.
H.
RJD(59) - I have a recording of him doing just that!
Hahahaha Thank you all for the giggle! For the record "Ernie" being a better contender was my attempt at damning with faint praise, but what a marvellous tangent you've all gone off at! :-)
Suzeemoon, the Glass Box thread has the worsd "Glass Box" in its title. But welcome to the rest of the blog/frog! :-)
Thanks, Aperitif - I think I get it now - The Glass Box is a blog entry in itself - not the actual blog? Geography was never my strong point and is no better in cyber! now wandering off to find out Tuesday's hot topics (Is this one of the places you have to stay on topic?)
Big Sister (65) - "RJD: That suggestion's just silly."
Thanks Big Sis - It's what I do! :o)
Suszeemoon (70),
"(Is this one of the places you have to stay on topic?)"
Not likely!
xx
ed
You got it Suzeemoon, but I echo Ed's "Not likely!"
Just had a look at your blog via your link. Blimey! :-)
Ah, yes, RJD, but I think you've missed the point .....