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Ah ha, I can see clearly now .....
Just wanted to post a comment about the discussion between the pro and anti immigration guys. Another example of giving them enough rope to hang themselves! Well done! I cannot say I felt either of them came out of their discussion with honour.
I'm posting this now as I have to get off up to bring home the bacon(!) but hope to catch most of the rest of the programme along the way.
Oh, as I write this, I'm listening to the item on Welsh identity, and devolution. Some nice snapshots - quite fast moving, I like that, a good change of pace from the immigration discussion.
I've never really understood why Wales has had such a poor image outside of its borders, and I think that side of the argument could perhaps have been expanded upon. It has a great deal going for it - and unless you're on the coast, stories about rainfall are wildly exaggerated. Perhaps your excellent reporter could be prevailed upon to develop the notion of how Wales is (mis)perceived by the English? I think it would make good listening.
Right, off for the bacon.
Can't remember their names but that turned into a bit of a spat on immigration and sickness. It did seem to go beyond any useful discussion at the end - maybe it would have been better to interview these 2 people separately?
What a lovely accent the flying man had, with his 'very exciting wings'! Can we have a photo of him please?
Just noticed the Alan Johnston banner. Thank you for posting that. I wish I had my own blog to display him on. And I don't forget him.
Eddie:"Tell me about the wings - very exciting"
I know you tried Eddie but I honestly couldn't detect genuine excitement in your voice. You wouldn't have been, ever so gently, taking the proverbial, would you?
Eddie,
Thank you for courteously offering a rebuttal to the gratuitous slander, "who doesn't like foreigners". It was well done.
The slanderer then went on to blame the INEVITABLE consequences of a 'globalising world' as if that makes everything allright.
This is the worst kind of lazy thinking. In fact it's a way of avoiding thinking. If it's inevitable, there's no point in thinking; we just have to lie down and take it.
Think of this the next time someone says 'inevitable' in your presence. I reckon you'll have a good riposte.
厂濒谩颈苍迟别!
ed
I came in after the discussion on immigration had started so I didn't catch the name and status of the two contributors. But I'm sure you could have found someone who could put forward the benefits to Britain of immigration in a respectful and thoughtful way. The man you chose on (Philip somoene?) relied on puerile sarcasm and rudeness perhaps because he was quite out of his depth. This is a serious issue and I think you should look harder for people who can discuss it seriously and civilly.
well, i know I was a little ambivolent about he G.B ONCE BUT i'VE CHANGED MY MIND- whoops- ignore caps!
I only heard bits of the programme but how I enjoyed what i did hear.
After what is turning into a pretty grim week, newswise, needed a little relief.
Loved the feisty women in Israel('' Get out 'a my face!'') and the interview with lovely Yves with his ''leetel thing on my back''who flew through the air- I didn't hear how.
After an exhausting day, I feel quite rejuvinated and supper is actually ready with no effort!
Mollyxx
Thanks for letting the guys discussing immigration just get on with it for a while Eddie -- it was illuminating. I find you are very good at knowing when to intervene and when to hold back. Nice work.
Not sure if or when this will appear since the blog seems to have stalled, but just wanted to say I was pleased Eddie allowed the two protagonists in the immigration debate to slug it out without interruption (except from each other).
However, since serious claims were being made about rates of illness, pregnancy, acceptance of low wages among immigrants it would have helped if Eddie had asked for chapter and verse.
Unsubstantiated claims are really not helpful in such a discussion, which sadly did begin to degenerate to the level of the playground. In the end I didn't feel either side came out of it very well.
Could not believe speaker today arguing that elderly prisoners should be entitled to their state pension while in prison. If someone on attendance allowance/ unemployment is in Hospital over certain length of time their benefit is stopped as their needs are being met by state. Absolutely outrageous do gooder! also argued against prison sentence on 80 year ASBO offender. Other means of controlling behaviour had failed and sentence was in respect of (I tghink) 6 or 7 breaches of ASBO not because of one inadvertant mistake as apologist tried to imply. Presenter should have challenged views more strongly rather than appearing to accept every word.
The pro immigration person you had on tonights show made some very sweeping comments. He stated that immigrnt labour was not holding down wage levels and that the immigrants were doing the jobs that British workers didn't want to do. Where does this factual info. come from?
On a channel 4 program I heard Sir Digby Jones state something roughly similar. He was standing in a fish processing unit in Peterhead in Scotland and he was illustrating his views by using a Polish immigrant who was in charge of a group of his fellows and was earning the princely sum of 拢18k per year. He stated that the locals just did not want to work for that therefore the immigrant labour was neccessary to keep the plant running.
I would like to know how a local could afford a mortgage and bring up a family on this wage level? also Sir Digby did not point out that the immigrant had no intention of staying in the UK but was using it as a means to an end. Therefore surely this example if repeated throught the UK would contradict the pro immigration 'factual' view.
I agree with Molly....an eclectic mix if ever there was one, when you add pension-aged prisoners to the mix. The point about a lot of pensioners being virtual prisoners in their own homes was very well put.
I have either heard or read the story of the Jewish buses before, a few weeks ago so was surprised to hear it on tonight's PM, though the issue was worth being raised again.
I have already mentioned Alan Johnston in my blog: "Roberto's World".
Well I thought David Conway made some valid points on the Australian system.
Phillipe Legrain did get a little carried away towards the end?
The nicest part of Eddies interviewing technique was that he just let them get on with it. I wish John Humpry's could - just now and again - take a hint.
7.3 Reverend Green :-(
Pity there wasn't an ulta-orthodox Jew on the bus segregation item if only to avoid having his views presented at second hand. But then perhaps these fanatics-cum-bigots extend segregation to the air waves as well.
I googled the Birdman
Gabe (and others) re old age pensions:
I didn't hear the item, but I think this is an issue that needs to be looked at 'in the round'. Unlike prisoners/patients under the pensionable age, pensioners are less likely to have the means to sort out any financial difficulties which may accrue as a result of being out of their homes. Elements of council tax, utility bills, etc. will be ongoing, i.e. there will be ongoing expenses. Is housing benefit still paid in these instances? These matters may also be complicated by other factors. And, at the end of the day, we are talking about people who, due to their age,will find it difficult if not impossible to repay debts which build up.
I understand Gabe's general point, and for me it is a valid one. However, this is an extremely complex area, and one which the DoP needs to think through carefully and draw up a consistent approach to ensure pensioners will not return to their homes, whether from hospital or prison, under a cloud of debt due to pensions and/or benefits having been withdrawn. It should not be beyond the wit of the 'powers that be' have a protocol ensuring that pensioners neither lose nor benefit from being 'out of circulation'.
Incidentally, these issues will also be complicated by whether there is a spouse or partner involved, who may be struggling financially if a pension is withdrawn. Perhaps PM could run an item investigating this at a future date?
That's two ideas from me on one thread. Do you want me as a commissioning editor up there, Eddie? ;o)
Gossipmistress (17) - Did he enjoy it?
I'm not convinced that the playground spat on immigration actually contributed much to the general debate. An impartial antagonist to each party separately may have had more impact, rather than one ridiculing the other without proper argument
RJD (19) Dick Emery!
RJD: How would she know? You'd have to ask him .... As an alternative, and by way of an experiment, I'm off to google you. Let us know how you feel - I'll be posting this now (time 8.40 a.m.), so if you get any sensations between now and 8.50, we'd love to hear. If you wish, try googling me, too. I suggest between 9 a.m. and 9.15 a.m. today (as the mods seem to be on good form). I'll keep alert for any sensation and report back.
Experiments on the Blog - Whatever next?
I caught the first half of the programme last night and the stand-out package for me was the immigration 'debate'.
Firstly I'll add my voice to the chorus of approvals above for the way Eddie let the pair of them go at it hammer and tongs.
Any proposed restrictions only apply to non-EU persons, of course. EU nationals can freely work over here without permits (well, most of them). So arguments about Polish builders/fish-packers, etc. are totally spurious.
I've seen a load of Polish builders at first hand in Brighton, working on the Hospital extension project and staying a a friend's guesthouse. They were really good news. They are polite, hard-working, (mostly!) sober, respectful. The reports we heard on the quality of their work, timekeeping, etc. were exemplary. I will also state that this is a complete contrast to previous groups of British builders who had stayed at the same place. If those men were typical of the migrant workers coming to this country then we should be welcoming them with open arms.
For migrants from non-EU nations there is much to be said for the Australian system of points. Most importantly it lets a potential immigrant judge how likely their application is to succeed and how close (or not) they are to being allowed in. It needs constant fine-tuning to make sure that it is kept up-to-date with the latest requirements. It is right that a nation which requires a migrant workforce should ensure that those who are allowed in fit the profile of the workers it requires. It would be pointless allowing 100 fruit-pickers in when what is required is 5 doctors (to use an extreme example).
I'm sure that there is both anecdotal and hard evidence to support the contentions about increases in certain communicable diseases being due to certain categories of immigrant. TB is very notable in this respect.
Overall my sympathies lie with the chap on the pro-control side, who seemed to be presenting a fairly reasoned argument.
And his case was helped by the idiot on the let-em-all-in side of the argument, who descended into an unsubstantiated personal attack as the whole thing progressed. He lost my sympathy right there and then. Another spokesman who should never be let out by his organisation again. Very much like the chap on the motorbikes discussion a couple of weeks ago who descended into utter boorishness, rather than deal with the issue at hand.
Si.
Big Sis - Please don't do that again without a bit more warning. I nearly crashed the car on the way in to work!
Right! Now for a return google. OOO - Wheeeee!
RJD & BigSis;
As a scientific experiment this requires a control group to measure those who are not googled.
So between 09:30 and 09:45 this morning please do not google me. I will see if I have any sensations during this time.
Si.
Another point about yesterday's programme, this time about Henry Allingham.
It was an interesting item, of course, and I admire greatly Mr. Allingham's courage in continuing to honour his comrades in the way that he does by trying to communicate the horrors of WW1 to the younger generation. It was right and proper to report on his visit to the school since it happened.
However - and I feel very strongly about this - the publicity which continues to be given to him and other WW1 vets troubles me greatly. As Mr. Allingham demonstrated yesterday, he (and other vets) get very stirred up emotionally on these occasions. In recent years there has been an tremendous pressure, originating in memorial events and fostered in part by the media and in part by the Vets Association, put upon these gentlemen who are now extremely frail. I do wish that a brake could be firmly put upon this now. They should be allowed to work towards a peaceful mental state, rather than have their emotions continually stirred up by such events.
I cannot go into this any further here, but would like to add that this view is based upon some knowledge of how this has been driven forward over the last several years, and I have become increasingly concerned about how it may be affecting people like Mr. Allingham.
Are there any involved in this?
xx
ed
I googled Sis, but I'm not telling. Who's this birdman?
Whoops! Premature yet again!
Sorry- this isn't strictly a Glass Box comment, but what a great idea to add the Alan Johnston box to the top of the blog. I hope it's picked up by many.
Great glass box.
The Flying Man - truly charming and, contrary to RJD, I thought Eddie did sound genuinely interested and enthusiastic!
Immigration - so well handled! Both sides so flawed in some respects, but it was good to have similar temprements in both proponents. So often you can have reasonable voice representing one side and a 'ranter' on the other; the ranter generally coming off worse even if their facts/arguements are more sound.
Israeli buses - interesting, but would have been interesting to hear from 'source' re modesty; where is it stated? Is it in the Torah or in person created code?
Good show. Missed the bongs as switched off during the weather - as Eddie hasn't crashed the bongs for a while the thrill of anticipation is no longer there to keep me listening!
Si (25) Hahahaha :-)
Anne P (21) - Are you cryptically saying "Oh you are awful - but I like you!"?
Si (23),
I agree in general, but any 'points' system is simply a way of cherry-picking skilled people from countries who are often in far greater need of their skills than we are.
xx
ed
To see how England ranks in population density, follow the . Our ecological footprint is around fourteen times Britain's land area.
RJD (33) I knew you'd get it!
Ed (34);
You are, of course, quite right. But if we deny all working migrants entry then we might as well put up the shutters, bar the door and tell them to go elsewhere. And they will do, make no mistake. People with talents in demand will find an outlet for their abilities, whether here or elsewhere.
In the last ten years the NHS has employed a great many nurses (especially) from countries who need them more than we do, notably Filipinos and South Africans. Now our own medical-training schemes are churning out newly-qualified staff who can't get jobs. What to do? Should we have denied the migrants entry in the first place and essentially told them to stay at home? How would our Government have met it's own waiting list targets (which have been gerrymandered anyway).
It's worth noting that the NHS has a stated policy of not importing labour from non-EU countries. So these people come over to work on short-term contracts in the private healthcare sector. Once they are here then the NHS has no qualms about employing them anymore.
Where are the fruit, veg and flower-pickers to harvest in our fields? These jobs are now largely done by seasonally migrant workers, because the British are either unwilling to do the work, or at least to do it for so little financial reward. If one cannot get British people to do these jobs, or afford to pay them the wages they want to earn what shall our farmers do, simply accept the situation and fold their businesses?
There is no doubt that migrant workers are a benefit to our economy generally, principally because they will work hard for far less money than a British person. That means that sectors of industry can keep a lid on their costs, which reduces inflationary pressures. So GB and the Treasury would love them on that basis. And I don't detect great signs of 'benefit tourism', or loading onto the NHS, although there was a piece a week or two back about medical services in Bedfordshire being under sudden pressure because of immigrants.
Any bar on migration on the grounds that people should work in their home country amounts to a restriction on the right to seek employment at the best wage available. Forcing people to accept a lower wage than they could earn is vaguely immoral. What we should be doing is tailoring the supply of migrant labour to fit the demand, which is where a points system comes in.
It also raises the spectre of protectionism. Go back to farming for a moment. Ban all migrant workers from the entire agriculture sector. Force the farmers to pay British workers the wages they demand. The jump in costs will raise the price of British-grown foodstuffs substantially. Shoppers are very cost-conscious. So to make them buy the expensive British-grown foods you would have to ban all imports of foodstuffs from abroad. Protectionism.
The subsequent rise in the cost of living and inflation would lead to higher wage demads and you're into an inflationary cycle, from which the only escape is to permit imports of cheaper foods and migrant labour. It's a self-destroying course of action which would ruin any political party which tried it.
Immigration is good, but only when it fits the need. Controls are therefore required. This proposed system seems to fit the bill and has demonstrably worked well for Australia, unless you have evidence to the contrary?
Si.
I confess I did not hear last night's programme as I was on a conference call from 5 till 6pm, will do "listen again" later.
Will be very interested in the immigration debate. I have to confess this is one that sparks a great deal of emotion in our house. My SO has been in the building trade for nearly 30 years and has seen first hand how much the immigration issue has affected the jobs and opportunities out there. Even going back as recently as when we first met as friends about 12 years ago he was always busy - always had several contacts who would call him when they needed him and he often would have to knock work back as he was too busy. That has all completely changed. Thankfully about 5 years ago he started sub-contracting for a guy who had a contract do a lot of work in my old work place and thanks to many office moves and re-organisation there, he has been working there on and off since then. However without that contact goodness knows what he would be doing. He met one chap who he used to work with years ago who told him about someone they both worked for who employed over 200 guys when they worked together, majority being Brits - he still employs over 200 guys but 90% are migrant workers - so what happened to all the other guys? Are they now unemployed? There is absolutely no question that it has had a major impact on the opportunities available to him and others like him. That coupled with the fact that they can and will work for a considerably lower wage than my SO and others like him are used to, it is driving down wages. When SO was with his previous partner he could be the sole breadwinner - he earned enough to keep them, not now. I have always had to work since our children were born. I don't dispute that migrant workers in the main are polite and hardworking - but so are many Brits, they are not ALL Sun-reading cowboys!! I know! I am sorry if this sounds controversial. Believe me I am not racist or prejudiced in anyway I can assure you. However the fact remains - this is only a small island with only a certain amount of hospital places, room to build houses, school places, small roads that already choc full etc. Surely there has to be some control? (And yes there is an irony to what I am saying considering we are hoping to move to France - but it is by and large a consequential action we are taken)
RJD Oh I should say so! Actually that comment appears to have been moderated as it contained a link to a picture of Mr Yves with his wings on. It may have come from the D***y M**l ... I wonder if that's why the mods rejected it?
I'm suprised you let the pro-immigration giggling fool on at all, let alone go on-and-on. There is a serious debate to be had about the many pros and cons of immigration and how they can best be managed. Slandering and unsubstantiated personal abuse creates heat not light. Next time, can you find a grown up?
Si (36),
"But if we deny all working migrants entry then we might as well put up the shutters, bar the door and tell them to go elsewhere."
Somewhere less overpopulated and in more need of their skills, hopefully. Most of the rest of your arguments fall into the category of 'inevitable' and the assumption that the is a good thing.
Peace and prosperity,
ed
Hello All,
Thanks again for listening and for your comments. Not much to say really, because you all make interesting points - especially about the immigration discussion (more on that below), but not much that really requires a response from me.
ROCKET MAN, as we slugged him (for those who may not know, 'slug' is our word for story title) was a real highlight for me - it was hard not to be affected by his enthusiasm. He was one of those people you really took to when you spoke to him.... even on an international line. Lovely voice, good sense of humour and just so into what he does. But we should have remembered to ask him how he stops. More about slugs further down.
IMMIGRATION. Personally, I enjoyed the discussion a lot and was rather intrigued by the way it took off. Some of you seem to think that we simply set out to get two people on to kick lumps out of each other. Not so... we were all as surprised as anyone about the way it panned out. I thought it was rather refreshing to reflect the highly emotive side of the debate as well as some of the arguments and claims. Yes there was heat, but light also... and Radio 4 would be a pretty dull place if we clammed up at any sign of emotion.
JAMES BOND - you may have heard Eddie say 'it looks like something out of James Bond' during Rocket Man. That is by no means the first time Eddie - and others - have used that phrase - it's a bit like 'when did you last see a Water Vole'. See if you can tempt Eddie to tell you about it.
SLUGS - back to the subject of 'slugs'. When someone sends a story or file around the 大象传媒 system without a slug, it automatically titles it 'Slug Missing' - which invariably raises the question: is someon'es missing slug REALLY worthy of a news item?
All the best
Rog
Gm (68),
Like ?
xx
ed
Ed (40);
You're kind of missing the point, perhaps deliberately. The one "avoiding difficult thought" is yourself.
Your answer of "hopefully" hints that you would indeed like to see foreign working migrants barred from Britain, so that they will either work elsewhere or stay at home? "Britain for the British only", sounds like the Front National in France and the obnoxious Le Pen, or something that the BNP would have in a manifesto.
We can put up the barriers to migrants, sure. Let's pass a law. Except that we'd still have to permit EU-nationals, or withdraw from the EU. So those Polish plumbers will still be coming over here. And we cannot, in any case, dictate where migrants are to go, still less that they should not go anywhere, but stay at home instead. This is not a global dictatorship.
Potential immigrants will go elsewhere. Of course they will. They will go wherever they are welcome and can obtain the best reward for their skills. Unlikely to be where they are most needed, which from your earlier point is right back where they started. That's what they are getting away from.
It's worth pointing out that many such migrants repatriate money back to their country of origin, where it helps their families and relatives to improve their conditions. As such it forms an indirect means of Foreign Aid. I wonder what sum of money crosses borders like this, and how it rates against the Govt's own International Development budget?
And it's facile to dismiss a reasonable argument on the grounds of 'inevitablity' and thereby dodge having to answer some very serious points. You can try and compel people to stay away. It wouldn't be successful and would refuel the kind of illegal immigration which led to the Morecombe Bay tragedy. But even if you're successful how do you compel the British people to work on the land?
We are in a state of nearly-full amployment. If these people don't do this work then who will?
Since you are also an immigrant yourself I might also point out that it would have barred you from coming to this country and forced you to either stay at home or go to some other country which is "less densely populated and more in need of your skills". I imagine that would not have been to your liking? Or maybe you would now like to set an example and practise what you preach?
People in glass houses, etc. Particularly appropriate given your working-life history.
Si.
Si (43),
Your answer of "hopefully" hints that you would indeed like to see foreign working migrants barred from Britain, so that they will either work elsewhere or stay at home? "Britain for the British only"
That would be ironic, since I'm an immigrant myself :-)
I do think there should be strong discouragement of further immigration due to the outlandish population density already 'achieved' by the UK (even allowing for the wilds of Scotland, Wales and Norn Iron, UK is the seventeenth most crowded country on Earth). And the fact that we are being fed by twelve or more 'ghost acres' for every acre of the UK.
It's folly to encourage further growth in our population when we have achieved the slightly declining status of a 'fully developed' culture.
It's nothing to do with race, creed, sexual preference, etc. It's to do with ecological sanity.
As referred before, see Garrett Hardin and Lifeboat Ethics. And .
Peace and prosperity, (as Eisenhower used to say)
xx
ed
Si,
As a slightly off-topic reply to your above message and hopefully not treading on Ed's lovely toes, I am also an immigrant (half-Obanese not withstanding) and my husband is also an immigrant. We both originated from low-populated developed countries and chose to live in this country 20 years ago (give or take).
We are now working in positions which are highly-specalised and specific to the UK and our skills and experience (such as they are in my case) would be quite useless in our birth-countries - if we were to try and apply for similar level jobs that is.
We enjoy living here for the moment but we have commented between ourselves that the nation seems to be heading towards a situation where it is... over-stretched, over-heated or where the development of the infrastructure does not seem to match the increase in population and demand for service.
I don't know if this can be fixed or not, I don't know whether this can be attributed solely to immigration (seems more of a case of governmental mismanagement to me, of which immigration is a part), but MrB and I have talked about the possibility of moving away again, probably back to his home-land - not for better jobs at all, as money is very low down on the importance scale for us living as we do, but simply for a more peaceful existence. And if we do? I'm sure the UK will cope. ;-)
How do you know about my toes? My toenails seem to have got laminitis from my wife's useless parasitic pony. Fortunately it's painless.
xx
ed
But, EdI, your argument would mean that you, too, would have to head out. Otherwise it would come down to: "I managed to get in, but now I want the door shut."
Even though you are not from a country in the EU, it is a hell of a lot easier for you and your fellow Americans to settle here than people from Third World countries.
I would argue that it is precisely people who, like you, are able to return to your homeland and still enjoy a reasonable standard of living, who should be prepared to sacrifice your own preferential abode in favour of those who do not share those advantages.
You see, there are alternative ways of looking at all this.
Quite a lively debate going on here with Ed and Si, but I think Belinda has also summed it up well. The facts are the country IS becoming over populated, the infrastructure as it is CANNOT cope particularly well. The NHS is pushed to the limits, schools are full and if we are near full employment then why has my SO found that there are very very few opportunities now available to him in the line of work he does??? When the work dries up where he is now what hope will he have of getting another job straight away as he once could?? Very little is the answer. I can see what you are saying Si but this is the reality of the situation and I think Ed and Belinda have made some very valid and true points.
But I've been here more than half my life! :-(
And Scotland is far less crowded than England.
;-)
xx
ed
So, EdI, there's no real problem, is there?
;o)
Question for EdI: do you happen to know what percentage of the population of England (not the United Kingdom) lives within forty miles of Marble Arch? Somebody told me once but I can't remember. I have a feeling that it was something like one-third, which seems a heck of a lot.
Sis (50),
No problem so long as we don't encourage further immigration. Then our population will slowly decline towards a sustainable level, but probably not quickly enough to avoid some pain in the post-oil traumas.
Chris (51), I don't know, but 20 million would be one third, and I suspect that number might well be found in the SE corner of GB.
Please let me stay, y'all, please!
xx
ed
good points posted by (39) (11) and (20)
It must be wonderful to live in the happy dreamworld of ethnic diversity - so long as you can retreat to your all white middle class suburb.
Sorry to sound like Stalin/Hitler (delete where applicable) but really !
The simple fact is that there is a totally ignored generation of British youth being relegated to the sidelines of the economy (yes, that means dole & crime) by the insane policies of this government.
As I previously posted - keep importing unskilled labour - and wait for a BNP MP, or two hundred !
Scaremongering ? Give it ten years.
Who know's, someone might reply to this post - or am I already a "non person" ?
And do I care ? I care not.
Steven (53), Are you of the belief that all posting here are white and middle class then? Or even all posting in favourable terms about ethnic diversity? I realise I'm not addressing your central point but you can, I hope, see what I'm getting at.
Steven (53);
Ignore you? Never.
The generation is not being ignored in toto. Many of them find work, some well-paid, some not so. I would hope that, by and large, they find work appropriate to their skills and abilities. Some do not, and a tiny percentage will become long-term unemployment statistics. It is thus in every generation.
I have a sense that the current generation has been mis-informed. They are led to believe that they can have the moon if they only reach out for it, that nothing is impossible. That may be true, but only for the smallest minority. Their is only one Beckham or one Damon Buffini in every generation who leaves a tough upbringing to make it to the very top.
So when they leave the under-achieving boundaries of their school/college/university there is a cold hard reality awaiting them. It takes hard work, diligence and years of 'paying your dues' to become a success. Education in this country blithely ignores this reality. Work & society has a structure to it. Someone runs the company, someone empties the bins. We can't all be in charge.
When reality bites hard, disillusion sets in. And society begins to break down at the margins when the hopeless react against their frustration. Those who are told that they can have success and respect seek it through a knife or the barrel of a gun. Or escape from it into a narcotic haze.
People in Britain are very materialistic. They want that widescreen plasma TV and DVD/hard drive audio-viual recorder, etc. That requires money. Lots of money. So they won't take work for low pay, picking crops or stacking shelves. Someone has to do it or the food won't be on the shop shelves when you go down to buy your groceries. So the labour migrates from lower-cost economies to do that work. It sometimes seems that petrol stations are run by migrants from Sri Lanka. Every one I go into recently seems to be this way. I'm glad that they are there so I can fill my car up.
The BNP might whip up hatred because 'they' have taken 'our' jobs. But the reality is that 'we' didn't want to do them anyway. Or we wanted to be paid extravagantly daft amounts of cash to do them. I refer you to my comments (directed at Ed I in 23, 43 & especially 36) above and repeat, if the British will not do the work, then who will? What is your proposed solution?
There is another ghost at this discussion, which no-one has mentioned. That is the outflow of largely middle-class occupations to other countries. I'm thinking of the offshoring of existing or formerly British-based jobs to (normally) India or Malaysia. I.T. has been decimated. Large law and accounting firms (or those departments in big companies like Toss-co) are sending routine work to be done abroad. Call-centres are now routinely answered by a non-British person. Where work can be done more cheaply abroad there is a rush to do exactly that as a supposed cost-saver. I declare my interest as a freelance I.T. consultant. It's the main reason why I'm moving out of the sector into something completely different.
And my suburb is not all-white. South Manchester has it all, living in close proximity.
Si.
All,
Just to be clear, I am very fond of diversity in everything. From microbes to mankind, variety is not only the spice of life, but also the key to resilience in systems.
My concern is with numbers of humans, not with their colour, creed or whatever. Too many of any one species is bad form any ecological zone, and this is particularly so for humans, given our penchant for simplifying (paving, mowing, etc) our zones of occupation.
Globally we are witnessing a massive extinction event which is accelerating and likely to surpass the one which carried the dinosaurs away, and it is largely the result of the spread of humanity at the cost of wildness and wild places. There is hardly a place on the planet not affected by humans, and some calculate that we have appropriated 40% or more of the total nett photosynthetic annual harvest for human use.
{/rant}
ed
20/04/2007 at 15:13:23 GMT
Aperitif (53) in answer to your first question YES.
And I can indeed see what you are "getting at".
The "celebration of diversity" has never existed in areas of high unemployment - like Wythenshawe - much better to celebrate the triumph of capitalism - a wonderful system in its own way - but not when you are part of the working poor.
Simon Worrall (55)
Oh dear, you do have a very rosy view of reality!
Having been part of the "tiny percentage" you glibly talk about, for the past eight months I feel free to comment. Bearing in mind that I lived off the money I had saved (just like Uncle Gordon tell鈥檚 us to) for six of those months.
I understand what you are saying about Britain鈥檚 who will not take minimum wage jobs - I worked in a minimum wage job for three years - I think you are preaching to the choir here!
My point is that uneducated and unskilled people should have no option but to take minimum wage employment - it鈥檚 called workfare and it works everywhere it has been tried out.
That is my 鈥渟olution鈥.
Unrealistic expectations from those unwilling to defer gratification are only a problem so long as we have a benefits system designed to reward the idle and feckless, as it exists currently.
Today I managed to secure employment for 8 weeks - it will be a supreme joy not to have to stand in line with people who are aggressive and smell bad, it鈥檚 equally great that I don鈥檛 have to deal with the burned out unhelpful dimwits who are supposed to help me find employment.
Frankly, a "cold hard reality" is something that I am fairly sure you have no experience of whatsoever, here鈥檚 hoping you never wind up in an unemployment queue, I think you might get an introduction to reality you might not enjoy, or be quite so smug about.
Well, Steven (57), you are wrong.
I feel it my duty to say that you cannot make assumptions about a person's class, ethnicity or anything else from reading his/her posts on a blog.
And that it what I was getting at. Goodness only knows what you thought I meant.
Aperitif (58)
Thank you for fulfilling your duty !
I am quite happy to be wrong , quite frankly this blog could do with at least one person who can admit they are wrong.
And can I judge ethnic / social diversity from blog entries - I cannot ! Nor can I tell you if aliens exist or if there is a Loch Ness Monster.
I can however make an educated guess that the majority of people bothering to post here are white and middle class - there, I said it.
I hope that was all expressed clearly enough ?
Goodness knows I wouldnt want you to be confused.
Steven (59), How unkind and self-regarding of you: There are many froggers who will debate and discuss with strong views -- but without resorting to rudeness -- and who will clearly admit that they have been wrong and/or apologise if they have caused offence.
You may be correct in your assumption that "the majority of people bothering to post here are white and middle class" (emphasis added) but what I initially sought to clarify (at 54) was whether you were of the belief that all posting here were white and middle class. Your answer at 57 was "YES". You were, as I said, quite wrong about that.
I'm finding your manner towards me very abrupt and somewhat sarcastic. I can see that, no doubt for that reason, I have been quite blunt in response, but I hope that doesn't stop you from taking what I've said seriously.
Sorry if you find me sarcastic, abrupt and rude (?)
i'm afraid it's my knee jerk reaction to being patronised.
And in terms of taking what you said seriously - I accord your opinions with the same credence as you accord mine.
Peace ?
Steven (57);
I think I can trump your eight months, having spent a year on the dole at 18 before joining the Navy. Then having three months unemployed, fo the first time in 23 years, during Jan - April 2006, whilst trying to sort out a hideously nasty, bitter and ultimately expensive divorce and keep on paying for my kids. The whole experience left me feeling suicidal at times. It was only the support of a few who got me through it all. The state offers no help at all, nor did I expect it to. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and not keen to repeat the experience. So don't get all smug with me and tell me that I haven't had it bad.
I certainly didn't get any benefit from being 'idle and feckless' last year. I got no benefits whatsoever whilst 'resting' because of a paperwork c*ck-up at the DWP, so had to rely on the charity of family and friends, and finally received only a proportion of the money due once I was back at work. Having been into the one at Stockport I certainly understand your comments about job centres and the people in them.
I don't have any rosy view at all. I'm supremely cynical about life in 21st Century Britain. The youth are massively over-indulged and sheltered from life. They expect everything spoon-fed to them so they have no concept of doing anything for themselves. They don't comprehend that reward is given for effort, you have to actually DO something, not just sit around moaning about how bad life is and waiting for a job and income to be handed out for free.
My point was that all-too-many young people these days have that view when they leave education and expect everything laid out on a platter for them. Life ain't like that and when the real world catches up it's a horrible shock.
Si.
I didn't use the word 'rude', and I certainly was not being patronising Steven -- I asked you a simple question and, although you answered, that answer came along with some sarcasm. My only objective was to assure you that not all contributors to this blog are white and middle class, having first checked that that was indeed what you intended to imply. I haven't actually expresed any opinion about the main thrust of your debate. If you're going to read whatever you like into what I write, rather than just what I actually say, I find continuing to talk to you rather pointless: You can have that conversation with yourself. Unsurprisingly, I don't enjoy have my words and meanings twisted, or being vilified for something that I have not done, so I shan't say any more.
Aperitif (63)
Thats fine by me.
Simon Worrall (62)
Despite being at somewhat cross purposes - I think we agree !
I certainly agree with you that unrealistic expectations lead to dissapointing outcomes - i.e. people expecting to be handed oppotunties rather than going out and finding them.
Lets not get into a bidding war over who has had the tougher time - sorry if I came across as a bit smug - but I thought you did too !
As a much wiser man than me once said , you are only a loser once you quit trying. Too many people quit at the first hurdle - especially in the town I live in where lots of people effectively leave education at 14 or 15 totally unprepared for anything.
Anyhow being back in work for me will feel like a holiday from useless job agencies, endless application forms and burned out Job Center plus staff !!
Hi
I would like to know how can I have access to the PM show from wednesday 18th of April 2007
could you please guid me how can I get my hand on the recorded version or listen to it online
Tanx