The Glass Box for Monday
The Glass Box is the place where you can comment on what you heard on PM, interact with other listeners and get responses from the people who make the programme.
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The Glass Box is named after the booth outside the PM studio where we all discuss the programme at 18.00 every weeknight. We try to be honest and constructive. Sometimes there is criticism, and the criticised get a chance to explain themselves.
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Terrorism:
I don't know how to deal with the problem but I can point up the inevitable consequence of increased security in those areas considered at the moment to be particularly vulnerable---- ie arports; aircraft; seaports; railtravel etc. When those 'hard' targets become too difficult we shall see attacks perpetrated on 'soft' targets such as streets; buses and workplaces.
Following such attacks we shall see the implementation of further but apparently necessary limitations on our civil and human rights. One of the problems with measuring the order of such restrictions is we cannot know to what degree the statutes thus brought about will be to cover the government's arse in the event of such atacks or to what degree they are genuinely needed.
This blog is nothing but bleak and I'm sorry.
One day of good weather forecast in July - a terrible summer.
This is actaully bordering on irresponsible broadcasting.
Is it any wonder that the British tourism industry is suffering when 3 million people listen to unfounded statements like that!!
Monty (1) no need to apologise. Sometimes blogs do need to be bleak, if the subject warrants it. I do tend to agree with you generally on what'll happen once the high-profile targets get too difficult for terrorists to go for. But we have to keep perspective on the level of terrorist threat. As I understand the statistics, more people die each week in accidents than have died in the last 6 1/2 years due to terrorist acts. Yes, it's a risk, but I rate the personal risk as being less than that of driving to the airport to begin with, particularly an early drive such as I had this morning to Heathrow.
Thank you for doing the peice on the bishop -
I've never witnessed such speedy backtracking.
I'd like to put the bishop back to back with John Humphrys and see how he faired.
What was the spokespersons surname?
Yes, it was me. I'm so upset about the naughty things you rotten humans are doing, I thought I'd give you all a jolly good drenching. Well, some of you, at any rate. That'll teach you.
surely the reason God is punishing Doncaster and Sheffield now with flooding is our dismissal of Tony Blair as Prime Minister ...
Proof that the terrorists can never win...
There's already a website lauding John Smeaton, the Glasgow airport baggage handler who tackled the Jeep Terrorist.
It's at w w w dot johnsmeaton dot com
Warning: contains dialect...
I have just listened to the comments on the flooding in Doncaster from the church representative and your guest philosopher.
Perhaps the minister in question would like to express his thoughts to the people of Doncaster who are now coping with the effect of the flooding on their lives both emotionally and financially? I agree with the philosopher's comment that this is just sometimes the way the universe works. It is fragile and unpredictable and there is no religious justification for such events.
The 7th July, 21st July 2005 and these current attempts - all linked by the fact that there was apparently no intelligence of them. No doubt there will be lots of talk of new laws (how many Anti Terror Acts have we had in the last ten years?) and no doubt the gov will try to smuggle in the egregious 90 day detention without charge again. MiniLuv is reported as saying "the UK would not be "intimidated" by "those who wish to destroy our way of life and our freedoms"." - who needs terrorists to do that when our Government can do it all on its own?
But the fact is that it is only intelligence that can prevent these kinds of attacks, not laws - last time I checked, attempting to blow people up was already a crime, no matter how comedic the attempt*. Human intelligence is where it's at. Hard, expensive, messy, human intelligence. Surveillance, phone tapping, infiltration. Terrorism is a criminal action, and should therefore be resolved by policing (including Special Branch and MI5). On that thought, whatever happened to "tough on the causes of crime"? What are the causes of terrorism? Discuss, showing your working. Marks will be deducted for use of the phrase "false version of Islam" as this is a tautology.
*ram-raiding an airport frontage, but forgetting about the bollards? attempting to use propane cylinders (which have pressure release valves) and petrol (which isn't volatile enough to explode in air unless you aerosolise it) while forgetting the oxidiser and a proper explosive trigger? Coming up with a bizarre movie plot involving attempting to combine liquids, when the fumes would kill you in the confined space of a airplane loo long before you had anything explosive? May all future plots be as stupid as these.
It would be dead boring if I wrote in every time the progamme seemed to me to be fine, no complaints, thank you, but this time I shall.
Well done ye, the team.
I was particularly glad to hear about the backshuffling of the Bishop, his original comments having been insufferably odious as they were reported by the Sunday Telegraph.
Well done that baggage-handler, too.
Cheers!
I think that the divine message of the flooding is quite clear: get yourself a 4 by 4 and a big house on the hill and I’ll smite those poor beggars in Donny. But then again its always difficult to know the mind of God.
RE God being angry with our moral laxity.
Whose god would this be exactly. The christian god? Allah? Shiva? etc ad infinitum...As I understand it we live in a multi-faith country with many people believing in many deities, this being the case was it just the christian god who was responsible? If so, I wish one of the other gods could have done something to stop it and whilst they were at it maybe help out with all the other disasters that are attributed to an act of god.
This type of comment by members of the clergy just go to show how backward they are.
Humanity needs to move on from these ancient, outmoded beliefs. When mankind first emerged as a thinking creature we needed some way to explain the things we could see around us but some of us have evolved a bit since then and have more rational explanations for the world. Unfortunately this is not true for all people and they still try to hold us to their beliefs and irrational credos.
Please stop it. If you wish to believe in your shade of god kindly do so in the privacy of your own home and stop spreading poison to the rest of us.
Right there with you, Chris (9).
A right pasting for the ridiculous bishop, and a grateful pat on the back for the baggage handler.
Maybe I nodded off (I don't think I did?) but there seemed to be less trivial non-News tonight than usual.
Another grateful pat on the back for the Editor.
Fifi ;o)
I'm glad you covered the twins thing. I saw it on ´óÏó´«Ã½ news online earlier at work but never actually managed to get round to reading it.
Regarding the Bishop and the rain - I seem to remember that you covered a long range forecast story a while ago. How accurate was that forecast?
@ Chris Denham (11):
Of course it's difficult to know my mind: I move in mysterious ways, do I not? No cheek, now, unless you want me to turn your shed into an impromptu cabin cruiser.
If Gordon Brown needs a glib, smooth-talking spin doctor to explain that what people thought he'd said was in actual fact something completely different and totally non-controversial - then the Bishop of Carlisle might be able to tell him where to find one.
There's never been a better time to buy opium.
xx
ed
Why did Eddie Mair hold back on the God's judgment over gay rights aspect of the article?
'Floods are judgment on society, say bishops'
"The sexual orientation regulations [which give greater rights to gays] are part of a general scene of permissiveness. We are in a situation where we are liable for God's judgment, which is intended to call us to repentance."
He expressed his sympathy for those who have been hit by the weather, but said that the problem with "environmental judgment is that it is indiscriminate".
What have the non-Christians of Pakistan done to incur God's wrath?...
'Pakistan flood death toll rises'
PS:
"In the Bible, institutional power is referred to as 'the beast', which sets itself up to control people and their morals...
It was good to hear a news story from Wales on the P.M. Programme this evening. You reported that consideration was being given by the Labour Party in Wales and Plaid Cymru to placing greater emphasis on the need for private industry to conduct their business and offer their services in the Welsh language. You mentioned that at present this is only compulsory in the public sector.
I would like to make two points.
Firstly, although you had invited both the Labour Party in Wales and Plaid Cymru to discuss the matter, neither provided a representative to do so. In their absence, you gave a representative of the CBI in Wales an opportunity to comment. Understandably, he was less than 100% in favour of any change in the existing voluntary arrangement. It would have been fairer to also allow a representative of a lobby group in favour of action to grant increased rights to Welsh speakers to voice their view, but this was not done. I would like to suggest that you broadcast a follow-up item to correct this unbalanced situation by inviting a spokesperson for either Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg or Cymuned to give their side of the story.
Secondly, it would be a good thing to give the story increased prominence by not hiding it away on FM behind the Shipping Forecast on Long Wave, but including it earlier in the programme on both services.
(By the way, am I right in thinking that listening on the Long Wave uses less electricity than listening on FM?)
Charles (17) - I didn't "hold back". The other guest in the discussion was there to take issue with him - and he did.
Was the bishop saying that they have gays in Donny? Dear God, when can I expect delivery of the cabin cruiser? It should fetch a good price in Donny.
Eddie, Good programme, but I think you missed a trick with Nadine Dorries. She was talking about David Cameron as though the sun shone out of his backside. Yet she is part of the Cornerstone group which is trying to undermine him by dragging them back to the 'traditional values' espoused by the likes of Edward Leigh i.e. Anti-Abortion and other strongly non-Cameron policies.
She is attending Any Questions soon - maybe you will get your chance then, but have a look at the Cornerstone website - very informative...
WHO IS THAT BLOGGING IN GOD'S NAME? (5, 15) MAY IT RAIN DOWN IN TORRENTS UPON HIM.
[OR HER..
..HOW AM I S'POSED TO KNOW? WHAT AM I, OMNISCIENT? OMNIPRESENT? I CAN'T BE EVERYWHERE AT ONCE YOU KNOW, THINGS TO DO, LANDS TO DELUGE, PEOPLE TO SMITE].
NOW, WHERE'S MY HAMMER?
Re; Charles Monroe:
You were of course right Charles, as was Eddie (in his reply to you)
However, although Professor A C Grayling the philosopher, did refer to the Civil partnership and homosexual reference from the Bishop, -- the Bishop's spokesman, Canon Dr Richard Pratt chose not to comment on it.
I wonder why?
and I, like you, was waiting for Eddie to push the Bishops spokesman on that particular topic.
Not because I'm a gay man, but because it's blatant homophobia.
I love Eddie's style - but sometimes I wish he'd go for the jugular more - especially tonight on this absurd Bishops inane ramblings! - hence my original John Humpry's reference at the beginning of the thread (submitted as the item was transmitted)
After watching tonights ´óÏó´«Ã½ TV news and Orla Guerin's report from Zimbabwe it all pales into insignificance, along with the dwindling faith I still have.
The Bishop and the Floods.
Didn't any one else recognise the story as "NOAH" from the old testament, almost line by line.
It's amazing, they had global warming back then.
Repent you sinners! Where are those Unicorns?
John (24) this nearly scans if you use the tune to (The animals went in two by two)
--
The Gays all went in two by two, hurrah! hurrah!
The Lesbians went in two by two, hurrah! hurrah!
Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, Paris Hilton, the Queen with her crown
And the rains poured down on -Sheff - ield!
--
Eddie and the PM Team were raging war
The Bishop and his spokesman had some words in store
Charles had a go at making his point,
but clearly got on Eddie's goat,
And the rains poured down on Toll Bar.
So now we know our, just re -ward is there's no more fun
God has waved his finger and there's no more sun
The future is bleak but let's not weep
Eddie's still here and he can't be cheap
Let it rain and rain on Bri -tain
Morning All,
Thank you again for your postings. The programme rattled along pretty well, I thought, barring a technical hitch at one point and one interviewee coming on and saying pretty much the opposite to what our producer had been told what would be said.
The terror stuff was interesting, but there were a couple of angles I would have liked to have chased – most notably the issue of foreign doctors being able to get into the UK faster than other would-be immigrants – but there just wasn’t time.
I really enjoyed the Fire and Brimstone discussion: lots of good teamwork there. We recorded about twice as much as we broadcast – and it was really good stuff, but it would have been a bit indulgent to put the whole lot on air.
The Welsh language story was interesting too… a couple of points to Eileen Walker (19): we didn’t hide it on Long Wave. It was the last item to go out on FM before the Shipping Forecast opt out at 17.54. The plan was absolutely to have a discussion involving a pro-language advocate, but Plaid pulled out very late in the day having said all along that they would very likely put someone up.
That was my last PM edit for a while. It’s been great fun, but it is back to BH and other matters for a few weeks.
All the best,
Rog
jonnie @26, you wrote
'So now we know our just reward is there's no more fun, God has waved his finger' and so on (good song, BTW)
That sums up much of what I find profoundly sad about many of the christians (and those of other faiths too, but there's a particular sort of christian who does it and impinges on me more than the joyless Islamists, who on the whole simply refure to talk to me at all) who are steeped in their faith. They are so utterly *joyless* about it! There they have this God who made, among other things, sex, and sunsets, and singing, and they think of him as a sort of nasty grey stepfather who hates everything that isn't completely centred on gloomily worshipping him because if people don't worship him properly he will have to punish them hideously for their own good.
I really do not see how one gets from 'wahey! I'm alive! Sunshine! I have to thank someone for this, I think I'll call it God' to worshipping a horrible dour curmudgeonly creature I would cross the road to avoid if I saw him coming, so small-minding that he can't cope with even the faintest questioning of his behaviour and prone to getting in a snit and having a fit of Smiting because he is also full of hatred for almost everyone he created.
It seems such a waste, and I can't help feeling that it's also some sort of terrible misunderstanding of a chap who got so much right and had so many ideas that are fun (though I can't say I think much of his ideas about teeth and toenails, both of which seem to me to be poor design...)
Chris (28),
Never had to scratch an itch? My squirrels have wonderful toenails, and I expect their rodent teeth are quite efficient
As to the ;-)
xx
ed
Ed @ 29, not knockin' teeth and toenails *existing*, I just think the current design never got through beta-testing, no way.
(Maybe my view of the matter explains all those floods! jonnie, come back, it wasn't you after all...)
As for sending me to The Onion, no fair. You realise how much time I can spend on that site?
Charles (18) Thank you for the link. Now I can see the article, in which Graham Dow says "The sexual orientation regulations [which give greater rights to gays] are part of a general scene of permissiveness." These regulations are not the sole reason for divine judgement, just the latest in a long string of negative laws that have been passed over the years. In my view abortion is the worst, because it is the shedding of innocent blood.
And I do wish people would stop misusing the word "Homophobic." Personally, I'm homosceptic. I could see the possibility of some homophobia in the Armed Forces, as described in Part one of COTC (sadly I missed part 2), but very, very little in other walks of life.
VH @31, I dislike the word 'homophobia' just for itself, because it ought to mean 'irrational fear of human beings', and it seems to me that being afraid of human beings is *entirely rational*. Or else it ought to mean 'irrational fear of sameness', and that too (if it is identiclones one is fearing) seems to me to be rational. So I just wish people would stop using the word, full stop. :-)
As for not being aware of homophobia (as I suppose we must call it) in any walk of life, perhaps one has to be homosexual to observe it, just as one cannot really judge how much racial abuse a person of some ethnic origin other than the standard may receive unless one is a member of a group that may be subjected to such abuse. Males are unlikely to notice the slurs on women that make women grind their teeth and long for a rolling-pin to strike out with, similarly.
Of course the mindset that expects abuse (whether because of experience, observation or purest paranoia) is likely to perceive it where it was not intended, but that is probably a different part of the argument, and leads us back to whether one found Bernard Manning funny or odious, something which I am fairly sure depended a lot on whether one belonged to a group he made the butt of his remarks.
Vyle:- Homosceptic? What on earth is that?
Vyle and Chris:-
I meant to use the word homophobic. It's precisely what the bishop is.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary:-
homophobia
• noun an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexuals.
— DERIVATIVES homophobe noun homophobic adjective.
The word homophobia was rarely used early in the twentieth century, and it meant "fear or hatred of the male sex or humankind." In this use, the word derived from the Latin root homo (Latin, "man" or "human") with the Greek ending -phobia ("fear")
In its more recent usage, dating from 1969, "homophobia" derives from the -phobia ending applied, not to the Latin root "homo", but to a shortening of homosexual. (Here, homo comes not from the Latin for "man", but from the Greek for "same"; see homosexual
Chris and Ed I,
Design features. It's a great shame that we are so slow. Had we had four proper legs and built on the designs of the Cheetah, we could have reached 0-60 MPH in 3 seconds.
Ideally God should have given us the ability to fly. The Falcon can reach 210 MPH. Imagine, I could commute to London from Sunny Bournemouth in 30 minutes - with few carbon emissions.
Re Vyle:-
Cleaning out the camp Part 2 is still available on 'listen again'
/radio4/cleaningoutthecamp/pip/fqy5r/
You also said:-
I could see the possibility of some homophobia in the Armed Forces, as described in Part one of COTC (sadly I missed part 2), but very, very little in other walks of life.
-----------------------------------------------------
Oh Dear, where do I start!!
- We have even had letters left by religious nutters in the Hotel exclaiming that we still have time to 'save our souls"
------------------------------------------------------
"Queer bashing" - Stonewall (1996)
A national survey of hate crimes against lesbians and gay men published in 1996. Stonewall asked over 4,000 lesbians, gay men and bisexuals about their experience of homophobic violence, harassment and verbal abuse during 1991-1996.
Summary of findings
Violence
34% of men responding and 23% of women responding had experienced violence because they were gay, lesbian or bisexual. 18% of male respondents, and 10% of female respondents, had been "hit, punched or kicked". 10% of male respondents, and 4% of female respondents, had been "beaten up". 5% of men, and 2% of women, had been "assaulted with a weapon".
Harassment
32% of respondents had been harassed in the last five years because of their sexuality. 12% of respondents had been threatened or blackmailed. 7% had had graffiti written about them. 6% had experienced vandalism. 4% had been sent hate mail. 12% had experienced some other kind of harassment.
Verbal abuse
73% of respondents had been called names at least once in the last five years because of their sexuality. 63% had been called names more than once. 29% had been called names six or more times.
The most common names were "queer" (31% of all respondents had been called "queer"), "poof" (31% of male respondents), "lesbo" or "lezzie" (35% of female respondents), "fag", "faggot" and "dyke". These were often preceded by adjectives such as "f***ing" "dirty" or "disgusting" and sometimes accompanied by violence or threats of violence.
Youth
48% of respondents aged under 18 had experienced violence. 61% had been harassed, and 90% had been called names, because of their sexuality.
50% of violent attacks involved fellow students and 40% actually took place at schools.
24% of all respondents aged under 18 had been attacked by fellow students; 44% had been harassed by fellow students and 79% had been called names by parents or families.
5% of attacks on under 18s involved parents or family. 14% of under 18s had been harassed by their parents or family and 19% had been called names by parents or family.
Avoiding violence
88% of respondents said they always or sometimes avoid kissing or holding hands in public in order to avoid violence and harassment.
65% of respondents always or sometimes avoided telling people they were gay.
59% of respondents always or sometimes tried to avoid looking obviously gay.
Only 4% of respondents said they never took any steps to avoid violence and harassment.
Jonnie,
I am very sorry to learn that the OED has agreed to confuse fear with aversion. It is something I'd be prepared to argue in court. In fact, I might even write to the OED to complain. My use of the sceptic word is intended to indicate a lack of belief in homsexuality as being something to be "Affirmed".
The conflation of Latin and Greek words does tend to add to confusion. I once heard a woman on the radio say someone was polylingual (polyglot or multilingual, unless the person had several physical tongues - I hadn't thought of that before).
Not sure about flying - think of all those mid-air collisions.
jonnie @ 33, at least the new meaning isn't a word with roots in two languages!
Even so, I find the word dodgy because 'phobia' is one of those suffixes that implies that the person can't help feeling it and certainly doesn't embrace it gleefully: agoraphobia, claustrophobia, aquaphobia and so forth are not voluntary. It has always seemed to me (and I joined the GLF for ideological reasons before the word 'homophobia' came into common usage) that those who express loathing for homosexuals, or attack them for no good reason, do so because they choose to and not because they cannot help it. The only way their feeling qualifies as a phobia is in being unreasoned, but I find that a poor excuse for it.
In fact my main objection to the word 'homophobia' is that it dignifies a nasty outlook and lends it a spurious respectability, just by defining it with a posh polysyllabic word. I want a blunt Anglo-Saxon word for it instead.
Some people seem to have difficulty in accepting the general cultural values which prevail in the UK. Some think it is acceptable to trafic in girls forced into the sex trade; some feel justified in murdering their own daughters in order to restore family honour; some feel that suicide bombing is justified and that bombers are martyrs.
Perhaps these people should be invited to move to a country where their cultural expectations are better met.
All this talk of gods being upset may actually be approaching the flooding problem from the wrong end.
Some religions used to regard the rivers themselves as gods and made offerings to them. I don't suppose someone has started doing it again have they, and got just a little carried away? Hmm?
Kevin @ 39, that's a feasible suggestion. If Don, Sabrina and the rest of them have decided that they *like* the diesel, nitrates, detergents and such that we've been offering them for so long, it all makes perfect sense. They are just showing their deep appreciation!
Sorry to drag you back to Monday...
Chris (37) - Good points.
Jonnie (35) I've taken an offline copy of your post and if I find time at home I'll let you have a proper reply.
My comments about the Forces were based on phobia meaning fear rather than aversion. I could understand the fear that if two blokes in a platoon are having an affair it could adversley affect discipline, esprit de corps etc.
As an aside, in 1976(?) when there was a heatwave I preached a sermon in which I suggested that the drought may be God's judgment. That doesn't mean His judgment could not be both. The Book of Common Prayer contains prayers for fair weather and for rain.
Hi, I've just posted a comment on what I thought was the right forum, the first one I came to after accessing the website for PM. My entry was about Shambo, the bullock testing positive for TB and due to be destoyed today. This entry from me was meant primarily for the PM programme rather than the 'notice board' - that's if you want to broadcast it on air, which I am happy with.