How's yer Latin?
This month, 750 children in 20 East London state primary and secondary schools will be starting Latin as part of their literacy curriculum. We've a report on it tonight. To get you all excited in advance here are some riddles set by Dr Lorna Robinson, who features in our report. She also has a .
Nexa ligor ferro, multos habitura ligatos;
vincior ipsa prius, sed vincio vincta vicissim;
et solvi multos, nec sum tamen ipsa soluta.
Then there's this:
Terra mihi corpus, vires mihi praestitit igis;
de terra nascor; sedes est semper in alto;
et me perfundit, qui me cito deserit, umor.
And this...
Sunt mihi, sunt lacrimae, sed non est causa doloris.
Est iter ad caelum, sed me gravis inpedit aer;
et qui me genuit sine me non nascitur ipse.
The answers will follow.
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All greek to me
Sorry :)
Null illiigitenum carborundum
Ah, but we all learnt latin from Life of Brian :
Centurion: What's this, then? "Romanes eunt domus"? People called Romanes, they go, the house?
Brian: It says, "Romans go home. "
Centurion: No it doesn't ! What's the latin for "Roman"? Come on, come on !
Brian: Er, "Romanus" !
Centurion: Vocative plural of "Romanus" is?
Brian: Er, er, "Romani" !
Centurion: [Writes "Romani" over Brian's graffiti] "Eunt"? What is "eunt"? Conjugate the verb, "to go" !
Brian: Er, "Ire". Er, "eo", "is", "it", "imus", "itis", "eunt".
Centurion: So, "eunt" is...?
Brian: Third person plural present indicative, "they go".
Centurion: But, "Romans, go home" is an order. So you must use...?
[He twists Brian's ear]
Brian: Aaagh ! The imperative !
Centurion: Which is...?
Brian: Aaaagh ! Er, er, "i" !
Centurion: How many Romans?
Brian: Aaaaagh ! Plural, plural, er, "ite" !
Centurion: [Writes "ite"] "Domus"? Nominative? "Go home" is motion towards, isn't it?
Brian: Dative !
[the Centurion holds a sword to his throat]
Brian: Aaagh ! Not the dative, not the dative ! Er, er, accusative, "Domum" !
Centurion: But "Domus" takes the locative, which is...?
Brian: Er, "Domum" !
Centurion: [Writes "Domum"] Understand? Now, write it out a hundred times.
Brian: Yes sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir.
Centurion: Hail Caesar ! And if it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off.
Laorna's site is very interesting -- but I'm equally curious? .....
.........You will need ... drinking straws, sticky labels, coloured paper, verb sheets
Thank you, FF, that was just what I need before a long afternoon catching up on emails (no, I don't want a bigger willy or money from Nigeria), phone messages (no, I don't want double glazing) and post (no, I don't want a loan. I don't want that other loan, either).
Why did they want the Ramones to go home? America hadn't been invented then, had it?
I can see this is a serious matter, exercising the brightest brains. So, being serious, I have for several years thought that if children are learning a foreign language it would be best to learn two or more, otherwise there is a tendency to thin that all you have to do is replace English words with foreign: "Etes vous allant marchant?" for example.
The beauty of learning Latin is that it enables you to understand the rules of English more easily, and can help interpret Spanish, Italian etc.
Over 25 years ago, it was good enough for me to get a B grade at O-Level (which is what we had in those days). Subsequent lack of use means that I am waiting for the answer to Eddie's teaser above. So what was the point of doing it? As Vyle (6) says, it was a great help in understanding the rules of English and the way the language should be used.
H.
Q. Cur gallina per viam transire maluit?
R. Ut in altera parte viae ambularet.
or...
Q. Why did the chicken cross the road?
A. To get to the other side.
Btw. I found my box wrench. :0)
As an Ailurophile the words felis catus are like music to my ears.
Teach Latin in faith schools. Perhaps latin words could be used to replace the derogatory terms each religion has for the others. Perhaps there are other uses for Latin? I'll listen to the programme.
Why do they need Latin? Chinese or other well-known European languages will be fine. It can help the children for their international business.
Well, I can translate them - but I can't work out the answers ...
Sid
e.g. "They are mine, there are tears, but it's not the cause of sorrow. It's the way to heaven, but the heavy air holds me back; and who begot me would not have been born without me."
What does that mean?
I'm 24 and postgrad chemistry student, so not at first glance a natural advocate for Latin. My school didn't offer Latin as an option, but I wish it had done. My wife learnt it for several years (and subsequently did Classics at uni). What advantage has it given her? Well, a decent knowledge of the rules of grammer (useful in English, let alone foreign languages, and not generally taught well in schools) - and also the ability to have a fair guess at translating most of the Romance languages - French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese etc etc. Apparently it even helps with German at times...
... and I'm guessing that 'igis' should be 'ignis'.
Sid
... and another question: may one ask how old Dr Robinson is, given that these are medieval riddles?
Sid
Veni, Vidi, Googli :)
Admittedly, these raw translations don't make much sense - but since I can also find Latin to English dictionaries online, that will convert single words, I should be able to sort out the non-translated words, so at least the translation is entirely in English. Rearranging the translations to make some sort of sense is another matter entirely...
Nexa ligor ferro:
Nexa to bind ferro , by much condition imprisonment ; conquer herself before , but conquer conquer in turn ; and to loosen by much , and not to be nothwithstanding herself loosening.
Terra mihi corpus:
Earth me corporis , force me praestitit igis ; about earth to be born ; residence is always upon foster father ; and me to drench , quae me quickly to leave umor.
Sunt mihi:
Are me , are tears , but not is case at law pain. Is road to sky , but me heavy inpedit aeris ; and quae me knee without me not to be born himself.
Whenever Latin is mentioned I always think of that Roman Centurion from Life .. too, Fearless, thanks for printing the transcript!
The only relevant comment I can make here is that some people make the mistake of calling all of South America ‘Latin America’. Well, as I understand it, the Portuguese-flavoured Brazil is not part of Latin America.
And then there is the mistake which has plenty of people, including those on the ´óÏó´«Ã½, describe the US as ‘America’. As I see it, America is not a country, it’s three continents. Who wants to kick me off this blog now?
Dr Hackenbush (17)
I regret to have to inform you that Brazil is indeed part of Latin America. The alternative would be Anglo-America, and I hope you'll agree that Portuguese derives more from Latin than it does from English.
Latin America includes South America and most of Central America, plus a few Caribbean Islands for a bit of added spice. And, of course, Quebec.
El Cid
mittfh (15):
All is clear now. The answers are, of course, catena, tegula and fumus*.
Sid
*chains, roof, smoke.
Major_Jim (12),
You made this point hours before I could get to a computer. I've seen this in action, with friends who had done Latin at school, trying to buy something in Spain without Spanish. It was impressive. I'm told does equally well in Italy/France. That trick does not work well in England, though. Seems to me to be a good idea. My Latin is just church, for concert performances of Masses, Tediums, etc.
Dr Hack (17),
Generic "America" is only two continents (geographically/geologically). North and South. The joining bit, which we call central, is mostly North geologically (as I recall) but S in language. S America used to be joined to Africa /Antartica/Australia/India[yes, this is true] in the super-continent Gondwanaland. N America was joined with N Scotland, before the Atlantic opened up. As well as the rest of the continents. That the two are joined with a land bridge is just the current situation.
The Spanish (Latins) conquered the Southern continent more or less in full, with the Portuguese doing rather well initially, but ultimately were ruled by their colony of Brazil/Brasil for a time. The progress in the North was not so good, as they came up from the South. Up to Mexico was secure, but beyond that into what we know as the Great Plains. Meanwhile, the Vikings/Welsh/French [Basques?] /English were starting from the North, rather more slowly (you might guess). More rapidly after the British 13 Colonies' successful rebellion. [Though the rebels were not able to take Canada as well, despite various attempts]
But ultimately the Mexicans don't forgive those foreign looking troops, in blue unifroms, who stole "(New) Mexico", "Texas", "California", "Nevada", and other Latin sounding areas from Mexico in the C19th. They were called (amoung other names) the United States Army.
OK, thanks. One of you is saying that I’m wrong about Latin America, and one that I’m right?
Dr Hackenbush (21):
I don't think Deepthought is saying anything about your rightness of wrongness - he's just providing a liitle local colour via some interesting historical anecdotes. Most of what he says is to do with geography - viz N & S America as continents.
Linguistically, things are different. Latin America comprises those countries whose language derives from Latin (i.e. Spanish, Portuguese, French). So, pretty well all of S America (but not the Dutch bits), central America, and French-speaking Quebec. And Martinique. And Haiti.
The French bits are often excluded, so that Latin America = Spanish and Portuguese. There is no use of the term 'Latin America' which does not include Brasil.
Sid
You have both provided some interesting information. The comment I made about what I understand is from something I once read. But I recognise that it could have been wrong, and I bow to your joint wisdom.