The British Stammering Association has complained to YouTube over videos like the one above, which are classified as "comedy". In the programme tonight we'll talk to the man in the video below:
1515 UPDATE: I've just interviewed Leys Geddes - the man you see in the video immediately above. We spoke about the YouTube debate, some of the comments on this blog, Arkwright, and how to edit interviews with people who stammer.
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Now you're just showing off, Eddie! Two video inserts????
Eddie, that's a very interesting question. I don't stammer, but I did get very upset when I watched "A Fish called Wanda" that stammering was used as a comedic vehicle by Michael Palin. Subsequently, I heard him talking about stammering - from memory, I think he said that either he, or his father, had been serious stammerers, and that the use of comedy took the sting out of the stigma (something along those lines).
Then, of course, there has been much use of stammering by other comedians - Ronnie Barker, for example. But, if I were a stammerer, would I want people to use my affliction 'for laughs'? I don't think so.
Looks like we're going to revisit a similar discussion to the one you had last year about the N word. Personally, I'd say that there are lots of other ways to make people laugh without risking offending or upsetting people who cannot easily control a condition like stammering (which, in any case, is often connected to problems of self esteem).
I've noticed since you've started linking to /embedding video, the blog is a lot slower and submitting comments is a bit of a nightmare. You're not on TV you know! :o)
Although I don't stammer personally, I am working with 3 people that stammer at the moment, and have worked with more over the years.
I did a highly scientific straw poll and 2/3 of those I surveyed found it funny and not offensive. 1/3 were deeply offended.
I suspect the answer, like anything else, is that it depends on the person. Generally speaking, I'd avoid humour that picks on someone, unless they are picking on themselves and a condition they suffer from, when I think it's a different thing somehow. But, that doesn't mean it won't be found funny, including by some proportion of those it "victimises." Jack Dee's skit on dyslexia when he pointed out "I'm not dyslexic, I'm just stupid" was hilarious, and well loved by every dyslexic person I've met, because he was making himself the butt of the joke and pointing out that they weren't stupid.
Where do we draw the dividing line, is offending 1 person OK? 10% of sufferers? More? I don't know, always a hard call. I guess the point at which a support group complains is a good sign we've gone too far though.
Okay, serious-time now. Whilst I don't stammer, I can understand the hurtfulness (if such a word exists) about making fun of someone based on a physical trait. I suffer from psoriasis, and it's visible on my hands, arms, and sometimes head & neck. I know that when people joke about it, it can be very hurtful, and I imagine that is akin to what stammerers must feel when they see videos like those embedded above. Whilst "political correctness" can sometimes go too far in curtailing humour, something that picks on an aspect of others and uses it to ridicule should be a no-go area. There's one obvious exception to this rule. I would say there's nothing wrong with a stammerer making jokes about stammering, or someone who is in a wheelchair making jokes about that...
Carl (3) Maybe Eddie's trying to break back in to TV through a back door :p
I can't listen to these at work so I can't comment on them. But I would say, no, stammering per se isn't funny and probably isn't at all funny for people afflicted with it.
In 'Open all hours' I think it was funny because it made Ronnie B's cantankerous tight-fisted old shopkeeper delay the punchline, and so was used to comic effect. But we were laughing at his character and not at the stammer.
Well, at least I can still watch the videos, which makes it better than REAL Player clips.
I don't think genuine stammering should be used for comedy. One incident that did amuse me was when Ronnie Barker had shot numerous bolts on the door of his shop, and then told [David Jason] something like, "One day this will be yours, lock, lock, lock, lock, lock, stock & barrel."
This is as much a question as: why do we laugh?
No sympathetic person would openly regard an ailment as humorous, but I believe it is the minds self defence from inadvertent empathy that induces laughter.
A good dictionary may make the distinction between 'sympathy' and 'empathy', but a thinking brain dances between the two thought processes.
As Mel Brookes said "If I cut my finger, that's a tragedy. If you fall down a hole and break your neck, that's hilarious."
I have a wonderful very dyslexic friend who finds dyslexic jokes hilarious - provided they are told in the right spirit as a joke and not as unkindness.
Could the left in Bournemouth tell us why the only people in the UK who should get private health care are their favourite footballers?
Will there be a minutes noise for Marcel Marceau?
It truly depends on the joke and the intent of the joker. I know one brilliant stammering joke - it doesn't work when written down, you'll be happy to hear - and it has never failed to raise a laugh. But the joke is about the situation and event and not about the stammerer.
I found the first clip above educational rather than humorous - it demonstrates the difficulties that some people have and how they can be magnified on the phone. I bet the 'net and email must be a bit of a boon to those who are severe stammerers
Jokes about dyslexics are easier to get away with as they are usually just wordplay rather than about dyslexics themselves. I remember many years ago really liking the graffiti "Dyslexics rule, KO?"
And finally:
Did you hear about the dyslexic devil worshipper who ended up selling his soul to Santa.
Brian (10) eh? I can't see where you're getting this view. Oh, and Can you enter the full web address you're tryiong to point us towards? If I click on the link it goes nowhere...
Lee Vitout (11) Good idea! In fact, Mitch Benn has a song along similar lines from wwhen John Peel died. His thought was that John Peel would've hated the silence, preferring to be remembered in music :)
Before the days of call centres etc. I heard of an organisation that put a person with a stammer on their switchboard in order to deter all but the most determined callers.
My direct boss at work has a stammer but this is no problem for those of us that work with him every day. I'm not sure if this is because he is relaxed around us and this gives him more confidence somehow lessening te stammer or if it is because we just don't notice it. We listen to what he is saying. But it is always interesting to see management's reaction to "the stammer" whenever we have big meetings - some are fine and others try to finish everything he says (which seems to result in making the stammer more pronounced).
A former colleague brought up another issue - the impact of stammering for deaf people (she is deaf). She said she found vocal stammering no problem to follow - just take your time to lip read. Her problem came with signers who stammered, which is more common than you might think.
People don't laugh when you stammer at them; they're embarrassed. So stammering, like say, blindness, isn't funny per se, but a joke about it can be. We should all have the piss taken, stammerers no exception.
Re. Comedy/Stammering:
the trouble is almost everyone has their raw nerve - if we ban everything that someone think's upsetting there won't be any more comedy.
Maybe, instead of pandering to a million group's sensitivities UK society could start heading in exactly the opposite direction and become a bit more...robust?
Hmmm. Eddie didn't *stammer* exactly, during that interview, but he did both say "er" and repeat small words.
Seems like a matter of degree, in his case, 'cos both are quite common in his PM interviews. Yay Eddie! Proof that a minor difference of speech from the "classic norm" doesn't have to stop anyone from getting to the top.
I had an excellent tutor at college who coped very well with his stammer in lectures and I was shocked when the principal joked it in his end of term speach, though the tutor in question seemed to laugh along.
I have since been diagnosed with narcolepsy, the sleep disorder closely related to epilepsy, which has hugely impacted upon my life, not least because I can no longer drive. I can now laugh about it, indeed the only 'famous' narcoleptic I can think of is in a favourite film of mine 'Moulin Rouge', but it didn't stop the hurt I felt when colleagues and others joked about it on finding out, especially when I was still coming to terms with it myself.
I suppose it depends on the situation and who is laughing at/with whom. I have no problem with a character in any media having the same problem, even for comedic effect, but it's different if they are only there to be laughed at (the narcoleptic in Moulin Rough at least gets to show of what a great singer and dancer he is). It is however a serious issue that there are many 'disabilities', of which stammering and narcolepsy are only two examples, that it is still acceptable to joke about. Perhaps this is simply lack of understanding about how hurtful it can be. For myself, although I can see the funny side of falling to sleep in a meeting or at the dinner table it is still very embarrasing, as for the effect when driving that's no laughing matter!
I agree wholeheartedly with Mr Geddes, as someone who has stammered (not stuttered) for 33 of my 38 years I find "Open All Hours" deeply offensive, the use of Arkwright's stammer as a fall-back when there isn't a proper joke hurts deeply. Older listeners/viewers/readers may remember a Ronnie Barker series called "Clarence", Clarence was not the brightest individual... If I remember correctly this series was shelved after 1 series as it was offensive to people with below average intellegence, Harry Enfield was forced to drop the character "Brian Bewildered" for similar reasons. No comedy would be allowed to rely on any other disability as a comedy vehicle so why is "Open All Hours" regarded as a comedy classic?
I know some will see this as "political correctness gone mad", but it is impossible for me to tell you how much of a negative effect on my life and confidence my stammer has had, particularly the misery of my teenage years and bullying both in school and work life. The biggest problem has always been other peoples perception and reactions, (often caused by their own embarrassment), I've never met a stammerer with a below average IQ but we are often treated as if we are mentally deficient in some way (the "does he take sugar?" syndrome many physically disabled people are all too familiar with). It is only recently I have learnt to live with my stammer, it wasn't until my late 20s I was able to convince people that I had trouble talking, not trouble thinking and get a decent job (with a boss who saw beyond my stammer). I'm pleased to say I now teach in further education, I still stammer but my students don't seem to mind, but please remember that some people live with crippling anxiety caused by their stammer, avoid social situations like the plague and are unable to live a normal life because of it. Now, is that funny..?
I am humbled by the bravery of Mr.Geddes in putting his video out into the world wide web. I too immediately thought of Michael Palin in A Fish Called Wanda, and I doubt that I can ever watch it again. At best, using a stammer is a rather cheap comic "device", sort of like a verbal pratfall. I do not label my feelings on this "political correctness", rather a personal enlightenment.
My partner has a speech impediment, while I have dyslexia. Both of these disabilities are subject to ridicule, and that may be where I have a problem. I don't mind ridiculing how dyslexia works, and I enjoy a Santa/Satan joke, but I don't want anyone to ridicule me for having dyslexia. My partner enjoys Ronnie Barker using stuttering for clever wordplay, but would be very offended by the above video. I don't find it funny when someone ridicules me because I can't spell, and I don't think it is being politically correct to find such behaviour offensive.
As Grandmother would say, there is a difference between laughing with you and at you.
I am too humbled by Mr Geddes, but more for his appearance on PM with you today.
It was one of those interviews that stopped me in my tracks and made me realise the sheer bravery of people less fortunate than myself. In particular, the closing moments of the interview when you get into discussing the editing and broadcast of the piece. A really moving and special interview that really confronts not just the issue of the affliction but the way in which Citizen Media through the likes of You Tube can work both ways.
Most of the comments posted so far cover:
1 Whether Ronnie Barker/ Michael Palin was offensive in portraying a stammerer.
2 How brave Leys Geddes was to come on the programme (I agree). On this subject did you not sense Eddie Mair felt he was being very brave to allow a stammerer on to the airwaves?
Nobody has mentioned the person on the YouTube clip. That is a real stammerer: he spends minutes trying to say his name, but can say other phrases perfectly. He knows exactly what he wants, and sometimes he can do it; but at other times he is totally incapable of saying it. For some people this involves breathing out until you are exhausted, for others it will involve muscular spasms and facial contortions. For some people the sounds come out in loud explosions, words repeated over and over, or grunts.
There is a world of difference between jokes about a mild impediment (Ronnie Barker), and laughing at a person who is trying to say his name. I know, and wonder if blind people are laughed at to their face in the same way.
I applaud the work that Mr Geddes is doing to highlight the needs of stammerers. I feel we are no nearer an effective treatment than 30 years ago, but I was interested to hear his comment that the only effective treatment is before the age of 3.
Will the ´óÏó´«Ã½ be brave enough interview a bad stammerer? Will the audience be brave enough to listen?
Most of the comments posted so far cover:
1 Whether Ronnie Barker/ Michael Palin was offensive in portraying a stammerer.
2 How brave Leys Geddes was to come on the programme (I agree). On this subject did you not sense Eddie Mair felt he was being very brave to allow a stammerer on to the airwaves?
Nobody has mentioned the person on the YouTube clip. That is a real stammerer: he spends minutes trying to say his name, but can say other phrases perfectly. He knows exactly what he wants, and sometimes he can do it; but at other times he is totally incapable of saying it. For some people this involves breathing out until you are exhausted, for others it will involve muscular spasms and facial contortions. For some people the sounds come out in loud explosions, words repeated over and over, or grunts.
There is a world of difference between jokes about a mild impediment (Ronnie Barker), and laughing at a person who is trying to say his name. I know, and wonder if blind people are laughed at to their face in the same way.
I applaud the work that Mr Geddes is doing to highlight the needs of stammerers. I feel we are no nearer an effective treatment than 30 years ago, but I was interested to hear his comment that the only effective treatment is before the age of 3.
Will the ´óÏó´«Ã½ be brave enough interview a bad stammerer? Will the audience be brave enough to listen?
Most of the comments posted so far cover:
1 Whether Ronnie Barker/ Michael Palin was offensive in portraying a stammerer.
2 How brave Leys Geddes was to come on the programme (I agree). On this subject did you not sense Eddie Mair felt he was being very brave to allow a stammerer on to the airwaves?
Nobody has mentioned the person on the YouTube clip. That is a real stammerer: he spends minutes trying to say his name, but can say other phrases perfectly. He knows exactly what he wants, and sometimes he can do it; but at other times he is totally incapable of saying it. For some people this involves breathing out until you are exhausted, for others it will involve muscular spasms and facial contortions. For some people the sounds come out in loud explosions, words repeated over and over, or grunts.
There is a world of difference between jokes about a mild impediment (Ronnie Barker), and laughing at a person who is trying to say his name. I know, and wonder if blind people are laughed at to their face in the same way.
I applaud the work that Mr Geddes is doing to highlight the needs of stammerers. I feel we are no nearer an effective treatment than 30 years ago, but I was interested to hear his comment that the only effective treatment is before the age of 3.
Will the ´óÏó´«Ã½ be brave enough interview a bad stammerer? Will the audience be brave enough to listen?
Just a quick post - top marks to the receptionist in the first clip - she showed endless patience, and when she realised that no matter how hard he tried, he wouldn't be able to coherently pronounce his first name, booked the appointment anyway.
As with some others here, I would personally categorise that clip more as "Educational".
And in response to RJD's dyxlexic devil worshipper, you've probably already heard this one:
Did you hear about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac who sat up at night wondering if there was a dog?
I'll get my coat...
Hi Eddie
Although laughing at disability isn't always politically incorrect I do feel the posting of this video on YouTube with a humour classification IS offensive.
I've just done a YouTube search and most of the results for stuttering and stammering come under the Entertainment umberella, i.e., people viewing them are not looking at these videos with a sympathetic eye and most people posting them are not appealing for sympathy.
Do suggest that The British Stammering Association or Leys Geddes engage the Disability Rights Commission's advice reference YouTube's refusal to accept that stammering isn't entertainment for the masses.
As a person with mobility problems I've had 2 issues resolved within months once I contacted the DRC and followed their advice in quoting disibilty law, i.e., the Disability Discrimination Act and a DRC case number.
One was against my Government employer for directing smokers to stand outside the entrance at the back of the building which is for disabled employees, near disabled parking spaces, etc., instead of in full view in front of the building. This local policy was introduced in advance of July's introduction of no smoking legislation. Normal complaints failed miserably for several months and I was actually humiliated in a meeting, and, asked to not park in a blue badge parking space and walk the long route to the front of the building! The issue was resolved within 3 weeks and an apology given when I sent a letter after raising a case with the DRC.
The second was a battle to get refuse collections for residents living in a location not easily accessible by large refuse vehicles. I was advised to take my refuse to the local Recycling Centre. My MP, the Local Government Ombudsman and I failed for 2 years to have this issue resolved and I have a stack of correspondence. But the LGO advised me to raise it with the DRC - result? Resolved within 5 weeks of my letter being sent.
Try this route British Stammering Association and Mr Geddes, if reason won't work then the DRC are brilliant.
Kind regards
Dear Eddie,
I have a child who stammers.
Having just completed a course at the Michael Palin Centre for Stammering Children (a centre of excellence in speech therapy) with my child, I am outraged and dismayed that YouTube will not remove these video clips. You would not laugh at someone whose speech was effected by a disability such as muscular distrophy. What to do?
Just a quick post - top marks to the receptionist in the first clip - she showed endless patience, and when she realised that no matter how hard he tried, he wouldn't be able to coherently pronounce his first name, booked the appointment anyway.
As with some others here, I would personally categorise that clip more as "Educational".
And in response to RJD's dyxlexic devil worshipper, you've probably already heard this one:
Did you hear about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac who sat up at night wondering if there was a dog?
I'll get my coat...
Brian (10), I was in Bournemouth, but "favourite footballers" is an oxymoron to me. Like Fearless (13), I fail to see where you've got that idea from. Personally, I believe in a properly funded and well run NHS thus rendering private healthcare unnecessary.