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Brilliant show! Has it started?
Ref an earlier thread, the jeering was even more excessive than usual today wasn't it? I, too, hate that aspect of politics. I'm afraid I feel compelled to point out that it was the Tories doing it -- and that Gordon's point about Cameron's promise to end "Punch & Judy" politics was highly pertinent. Why does the Conservative party value people who are only good at calling other people names and being smug? (William Hague was the classic example.)
Today we saw Gordon Brown forced to revert to the tactics that Blair used to adopt in PMQs for several years: claim how things have changed for the better since 1997. This tactic invariably involves completely avoiding the real question at hand. I think David Cameron is very good at cornering his opponent, but if performances in PMQs really mattered to the British public, then Blair would have gone years ago (when he no longer had actual answers).
This political nonsense of late has sucked everyone in hasn't it?
Today has been reported as being a very dark day for Gordon Brown. The essence of the darkness is that there was a bad tempered exchange between Brown and Cameron at PMQs and the general concensus seems to be that Camermoan won.
I watched PMQs on another channel and as soon as it had ended the presenter said words to the effect of, 'That was bad for Brown' and their political analyst concurred. I didn't agree and for this reason: the nature and content of Camermoan's questions were personal and to some extent offensive. The questions were pure markating invective designed to bully. From that standpoint I discounted them and so should everyone else.
I would far rather a leader of an opposition party ask substantive questions rather than trying to score petty Party points.
So, far from being a dark day for Brown, I think it was a shameful day for Camermoan.
Duncan
Hi just writing to thank you for the great interview with the farmer about Donald Trump's attempt to buy land...belly laughs abound "What about his hair?"....hahahaha! Cheers
Do you want to hear my Icartoon?
Its called
'The Tories Get Back in the Driving Seat'
David 'IZZA' Cameron is at the driver seat of his Rolls Royce.
10 yards ahead of him his chauffeur is riding an old fashioned bike in a cap half cloth half peaked.
David is saying 'Things are getting back to how they should be'
The chauffeur is saying 'The governor says this is carbon neutral compared with me driving and him cycling.'
OK Steve Bell it isn't but you don't have to buy the Guardian to see it.
yours 'till you geddit,
mac
Oli: You'll note that Eddie very carefully hides his own hair ;o)
You've touched the heart of the matter Gabriel!
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
Namaste -ed
Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets. Imagination without skill gives us modern
art.
-- Tom Stoppard
Wed Oct 10 17:42:11 BST 2007
Regarding the new 'cutting edge treatment' that has been promised by the Government for depression/anxiety. I have suffered from severe depression now for a number of years. At first, I was treated by a qualified doctor - who often didn't turn up for appointments - but was reasonably good. I asked to be re-referred and was confronted by an ill-trained therapist who said, and I quote, that she could 'cure me in three visits' and in addition, I was a waste of money if I had had to have numerous visits to the previous doctor. Well, if these are the 'new' type of therapists the Government want to recruit they are going push people to suicide and nervous breakdown. Put perhaps they would like us to kill ourselves - at least it would get rid of the problem.
Just heard the interview with Donald Trump and Michael Forbes, and I know which one I would trust! Michael Forbes, in typical understated Aberdonian style politely gave his side of the affair. Locals are sick of the bullying from Trump and his entourage. What is even more unsettling is that local planners, whilst allowing Trump's development despite its potential environmental devastation have recently refused two planning applications submitted by local folk in the same area......and Grampian police have failed to uphold the law in allowing Trump's henchmen to bully one local walker into not continuing with his daily dog walk through the Menie Estate which he has done for the last 25 years! Michael Forbes was quite right in saying that we don't need another golf course up here, and certainly not this one!
Again there is a cure-all for 'Depression & Anxiety'!!. CBT requires a lot of thinking and effort on part of people who feel depressed. Not all people are able to do that.
I agree completely with Oliver James who suggests that we should look at why so many people 'feel depressed'.
Clinical depression is a difficult to diagnose condition. Conceptualising difficulties in daily life and feeling like shit is not an illness and hence, not depression.
RJ
Can't believe Oliver James is saying that CBT doesn't work?!?! Based on one study??? Who's paying him????
Has it occured to him that all CBT isn't of the same quality and that it is high quality treatment that is required??? And other talking thepraies too??? Psychotherapy, for instance, does explore deep-rooted causes. Ask him, what's the alternative???
I wholeheartedly agree with his closing statement -- we as a society need to think about what it is that causes depression and other mental illnesses in the first place. But goodness me don't throw out improvements in treatment along the way!!!
Hi i dont agree with the comments that cbt dont work
3 months ago i had a breakdown and have recently started cbt combined with medication i feel that i am getting good results and i am able to function in my life i have recieved exelent care from the mental health team
Ref the postal strike the union rep from the north-west said how many businesses out there would treat their workers like the RM. An employee of ours whose husband is a union rep in the CWU demonstrated exactly the kind of flexibility that CWU members are not showing by working for 6 days in a row prior to the strike so that our customers (important people, note because without them we wouldn't survive) could receive their mail.
Flexibility and communication are key in the modern business world - wise up because you are killing your customers ats the moment. We spend over £50K per year on RM services. How much will be spend if you stop us serving our cvustomers - zilch because we will be out of business.
What is the latest number of signatures on the Downing Street website calling for a general election this year, to which Brown referred in PMQs?
Depression would reduce if more of us had the guts of the farmer who turned Donald Trump's megadollars and said no to money and power. It restored my faith in humanity.
Duncan (4), I agree.
What does PMQ stand for? something to do with this program?
Shall we put down David Cameron's name for a talking depression scheme session?
Oh Eddie
Just loved your closing credits! :-)
Really cheered me up & made me smile! - perhaps I won't need my CBT appointment tomorrrow now ( see that thread!!!)
Thanks Eddie
x
Appy (12),
"- we as a society need to think about what it is that causes depression and other mental illnesses in the first place."
Like feeling disfranchised? Like watching our Great Leaders (all of 'em) lead us down the growth-fuelled road to destruction? Like watching the rich get richer, helped by their wholly-owned pals in high political places?
Like recognising, that even if I live a relatively spartan life in the West, I'm still part of the one fifth who are doing four fifths of the world-destroying consumption?
"Growth for its own sake is the ideology of the cancer cell"
-- Edward Abbey, R.I.P.
Depressing, ain't it?
xx
ed
I think the move to provide more talking therapy for people suffering from depression is a good thing, but it's a shame it's being weighted towards CBT to the extent it is. I understand that it's style suits the reality tv medium because of the way it gets people to confront their fears, but there are other approaches - such as NLP and Cognitive Hypnotherapy - that are effective without being as dramatic or stressful.
CBT is the new black in Mental Health. The trouble is that it works mainly for people with mild to moderate depression. It rarely really works for people with more severe forms of depression or anxiety. It also very much depends on individual personalities and who delivers the treatment.
GPs, pressed for time and under pressure from directives, may be tempted to prescribe CBT as a cure for all distress treatment, which is quite wrong. People with more severe mental ill health need access to more sophisticated forms of psychological services, namely psychotherapy. But this is long term and costly, therefore not quite so financially attractive, therefore rarely available and when it is, it is very limited in time.
It is like a lot of things in Mental Health, not enough thought about what it means in our society to deliver a treatment like CBT. Besides, CBT on its own won't do an individual much good if part of the problem lies in the way that they live, their housing or working conditions.
the problem about talking therapies are, just that! Its only talking.
I had ten months of CBT at my local surgery and believe me it all depends on what you believe and your personal experience. The therapist was basically a good person but tried in vain to brainwash me into beleiving things were not as bad as I saw them. The therapy seemed useless in doing anything about the personal sense of injustice I had because of my experience and rejection at the hands of others. In the end it became an exercise in being led to believe that if I didn't agree with the therapist, then I didn't really want to get better.
I beleive that Dr Oliver James also made a valid and poigniant observation when he said that we are trapped in the grip of capitalism. Although, I feel he could have gone on to say that there are a whole core group of disenfranchised poor people who's depression may mainly be due to fact that they are poor and see no way out and yet are force fed the benefits of materialism whilst having no hope of attaining the lifestyle of the adverts and tv programms.
The causes of depression are many and varied and you have to get to the cause and start there - if you can. I fear this latest announcment may have more to do with getting welfare recipients off the register than giving people real hope for their futures. CBT seems to offer no addressing of social injustice, a central cause in much depression in my opinion.
However good a performance we have had to listen to from Mr Cameron, one cannot help but come away with an impression that he has the taste of sour grapes in his mouth. I am very gad that we have a government which can respond to good ideas by implementing them - after having calculated the true cost. The only sad part is that governments are rarely gracious enough to admit the origin of the idea. Would it not be refreshing to hear a Chancellor say: "The Opposition has had a good idea. They can do nothing about it but we can, so we have costed it and will implement what is fiscally prudent"?
Perhaps both Messrs Cameron and Brown would actually like to witness someone with a serious nervous condition.
Both men clearly spoke from the position of persons who were ignorant in every sense. Mr. Cameron's tone was indeed depressive; Mr Brown cearly hadn't got a clue what he was talking about.
This "lovely. lovely" attitude to mental illness that these people discussed and the way the issue was addressed clearly indicated ignorance. The idea that suddenly incorporating someone with GENUINE depression in to society is absurd. If Messrs Cameron and Brown think that all those problems will skip merrily off down the yellow brick road, is living in Cloud Cuckoo land. Perhaps they should ALL live with someone who has depression.
As for the idea that these people can suddenly integrate in to the working society, is equally ill informed. As an Epileptic, I only have to mention the word, and everyone runs a Mile (sorry 1.634 Kilometres) . Since developing epilepsy in 1999, I have lost quite a senior job, and been out of work for about 3 1/2 of the last 7 years. Not because I am work shy as appeared to be portrayed by the Politicians.( although I am sure that if I had just come from Afghanistan, India or Poland, everything would be thrown at me!)
I want to work and do not wish to live off the State. However, have any members of Parliament ever tried to use Public Transport absolutely?
It is VERY expensive, does not go where you need it to, without taking three changes of transport. A 50 mile journey East-West can take 3 hours; I can travel 200 miles North -South (and via London) faster. I have lost my job as a result, and finding it very difficult to secure work.
Have any of these MPs actually suffered from depression or other mental illness, or worked with anyone who has?
If they had perhaps the would stop talking verbal diarrhoea and realise that depression does not go away with a magic wand. Drugs may help but are not the answer.
As for employers attitudes to nervous conditions, they are as appauling as our so called "leaders", Messrs Brown & Cameron take note: It was not a CCTV Camera which picked me up when I nearly killed myself following an epileptic fit in the High Street, nor was it a Police Officer, CPSO, Taffic Warden; but a 17 year old girl who dealt with the First Aid, called an ambulance whilst people twice her age walked past.
I also came across a mentally disadvantaged woman, who quite clearly didn't know where she was, or indeed who ! She was vulnerable in every sense; asking me whether I could be her friend and asking me to stroke her hand.
She was ten years younger than me, and being a man meant that I could not take the risk of being accused of rape or abduction. I had no option but to call the Police. I could have been accused of everything from Rape downwards.
Why the hell is someone like that allowed out on their own? Where was her carer?
Is this yet another clampdown on costs of the NHS and short cutting. I note that the MPs have not cut their salaries.
So much for the caring society, and the protection which CCTV has given. No wonder everyone is depressed.
Heil Big Brother(s). And we mocked Communism!
We live in a society where life is presented to us as a battleground where survival is very much the business of individuals and nothing can be done about it. Get good marks at school or else or you'll be stacking shelves at blah-blah supermarket, Be like this or like that or else this terrible thing is going to happen to you. That discourse is quite prevalent in the whole Mental Health but no one actually takes the time or has the luxury of time to delve into the philosophical meanings, or absence of, in the approach to mental illness as delivered by mental health services. It is a quite sophisticated way of formatting people. Mental Health evaluates and classifies people according to criteria which have more to do with capitalism than good science. Life then becomes a struggle even before people have had a chance to explore what being alive actually means or to discover who they are. Life then becomes something that has to be cured rather than lived.
Brown and Cameron? Which is Tweedle-Dee and which Tweedle-Dum? And who cares?
Cameron says Brown is a phoney for not calling an election he knew he'd win ... does cuddly Dave really think we believe him when he says he really wanted an election?
No wonder the voter in the street shrugs and passes by.
Sid
A splendid episode altogether; however, it didn't feature sufficient amounts of Eddie's pacific, satisfying delivery to transport me.
Like many of the other submissions, I am concerned about the sudden attention being given to CBT as a cure for anxiety and depression. While I am not as jaundice about it as some of the submissions, I am concerned that it is going to seen as a magic cure or a conveneint way of off-loading people from doctors surgeries or mental health trust waiting lists.
Also I am concerned about where are they are going to get all these CBT therapists. To become a clinical psycholgist takes at least three years of training after undertaking a degree. I also consider that you have to be a very astute person to implemnt CBT, because people can present very complex issues. I hope they don't think somebody doing a short training course will provide them with the skills to become CBT practitioners.
There are a lot of self-help schemes available either through the internet, workbooks and computer programs. I'm trouble that these will be advanced as the only route to CBT. While possibly beneficial for some people they are no substitute for a therapist, in my opinion.
Personally, I didn’t see that there was any need to call for a quick election, and to a significant extent it was the media ‘frenzy’ over the issue that turned what ‘happened’ into a big news story, if not into a story in the first place. And therefore I think it was similarly unnecessary for Mr Cameron to jump all over this in the way he apparently has - but I confess that, thankfully, I did not hear this part of the programme.
That is quite enough serious content from me for one day.
Simon the P (25),
it would be nice to believe that the Tory clothes were stolen because they were good ideas, rather than to have the sneaky suspicion that they were nicked because they had demonstrated voter appeal.
Try as I might, I tend to the latter view.
When do we get a chance at Proportional representation, which has served Scotland so well?
Slainte
ed
The departing division general manager met a last time with his young successor and gave him three envelopes. "My predecessor did this for me,
and I'll pass the tradition along to you," he said. "At the first sign of trouble, open the first envelope. Any further difficulties, open the
second envelope. Then, if problems continue, open the third envelope.
Good luck." The new manager returned to his office and tossed the envelopes into a drawer.
Six months later, costs soared and earnings plummeted. Shaken, the young man opened the first envelope, which said, "Blame it all on me."
The next day, he held a press conference and did just that. The crisis passed.
Six months later, sales dropped precipitously. The beleagured manager opened the second envelope. It said, "Reorganize."
He held another press conference, announcing that the division would be restructured. The crisis passed.
A year later, everything went wrong at once and the manager was blamed for all of it. The harried executive closed his office door, sank
into his chair, and opened the third envelope.
"Prepare three envelopes..." it said.
Wed Oct 10 19:40:40 BST 2007
I hold no brief for either Labour or Tories, but I thought Cameron sounded hysterical and his backbenchers infantile. From the clip you broadcast, I thought Brown won hands down.
Brown obviously pulled the election because the polls were moving against him, but "boys will be boys" - the fault lies with an electoral system which allows the PM to manipulate the timing of elections for political advantage. He's a liar for denying it, but which of them is more truthful?
good prog, our postman ( a Geordie that has moved to Norfolk) is a wonderful chap, never been on strike in over thirty years of working, is totally fed up with RM attitude.
He uses his OWN car to do his round because:-
a....his 'sack' is too heavy to be safely carried.
b....they can't / won't give him a van / bike.
c....he has a long round and needs to get it done within his shift because of overtime constraints y his bosses.
Come on Royal Mail, I can understand that you need to modernise your business, but how about recognising that it is the staff that you need for YOUR business that need looking after first.
Without them and their goodwill you are stuffed as going concern.
DiY ex GPO Telecom (POEU)
It may not be popular, and it may not even be accurate:
Mr Brown to be replaced before the next general election as leader of the Labour Party, and of course, PM.
why? it is a goodish two years before the next general election; there is plenty of available contenders (Balls, Milliband, etc); and Mr Brown only needs a single unguarded comment in the next ten/twelve weeks to have a feeding frenzy in the press over christmas. Then, new year, new start. On current showing, he may well let slip a corker at a press event, in the commons, or anywhere unscripted.
Eddie Mair's PM will of course be the first to broadcast!!!
n-n
in a reflective mood.
Perhaps I am the only one that watched PMQ's without concentrating on the PM and Dave?
If you saw Labours front bench (and the bench behind) to the rear of the PM, there was was some distinctly obvious squirming in seats going on. The body language always gives it away, there a some very unhappy bunnies on the Labour front benches!
Look out Gordon, never mind Dave C, your own may be out to get you.
PMQ's, people watching at it's be(a)st
Thanks for all the comments..I had a feeling the discussion about CBT would be popular and i'm only sorry I made the mistake of over-packing the programme which meant it didn't get as much time as it deserved. (cue an evening of self-blame a cb therapist would have a field-day with) Rats.
Anyway we were pleased to get our Aberdeenshire salmon farmer on -- wasn't he great? And also Dame Diana Rigg, we may return to the issue on tomorrow's programme - if there's anyone from regional theatre who would like to respond...
Also a question -- what do you think of the way we report "terror trials" -- eg the one today from Woolwich Crown Court, about the men accused of running terrorist training camps in Cumbria?Eloise
Has anyone got details of the Buddhist speaker who was on PM this afternoon? Really thought provoking, but I didn't catch his name or background details.
Thanks
Suffolkpaul
I heard something on Radio 4 at around 5-6pm tonight from a Buddist giving his thoughts, on 'less me'. I wanted to listed again, properly, without children shouting/having supper! Does anyone remember what it was about/called? Help!!
I'm currently in New Zealand for a few months and I enjoy listening to PM on the ´óÏó´«Ã½'s Listen Again service.
The only problem is that, after listening to each broadcast for four weeks, the recording always starts part-way into the programme rather than shortly before it begins. I'm sure I'm not missing too much crucial information when the first headlines are read out, but it always feels like one is reading a book and skipping the first page.
Is there any chance that the technical guys could perhaps start recording the programme a minute earlier?
Whatever happened to the witty, sharp, clever comments you used to get years ago at PM's Question Time and in debates "savaged by a dead sheep" and so on. When did we last hear any really good oratory that made you think or even taught you something or made you laugh. Dennis Skinner was one as was Tam Dayell. Yesterday's and today's offering from the H of C was awfull. All this stuff about "he's bottled it" and weeks of speculation about an election the country didn't need have given the impression that certain parts of the media are out to destroy Brown as they did with Kinnock. Cameron has really shown what he is like. He's been trying to convey what he thinks is a mild,middle ground, green and sympathetic personality but the last few days he's come accross as really umpleasant it really was a return to the bear garden. It is this sort of behaviour that alienates voters. Brown's best line would be to stay calm and not rise to the bait. None of this is good for democracy or getting the public (other than radio 4 listeners) interested in politics.
Nick Fletcher (24) - "I fear this latest announcement may have more to do with getting welfare recipients off the register than giving people real hope for their futures."
Ding ding !!! We have a winner.
regarding oliver james' comment about finding the root of depression, rather than dealing with behaviour, i found cbt left me as confused as ever. cbt suits the government not only because it is the cheapest option, but because it blames behaviour and not it's cause.
recently i have looked into world affairs and i feel empowered by the knowlege of what is being done by western power and how i was the confused helpless and guilt ridden victim of the p r machine. i have never felt this happy. i prescribe a course of mp3's of noam chomsky and tariq ali and and a daily dose of 'democracy now'.
Re Pip - and SuffolkPaul. The Buddhist was explaining his inner (i)
It was part of Eddie's new exciting project when whe take photo's of what we think depicts us?
Does that make sense at all?
Oh you know what I mean -
Anyhoo - click on the link to the PM Homepage - above - below Eddie's head - and from the homepage you can listen again to Wednesdays broadcast. I recall it was somewhere around the 5-30 news headlines.
Pip & SuffolkPaul, Jonnie is right re the listen again. I seem to remember it was in the five minutes before the 5:30 headlines...
suffolk-paul and pip (38 and 39) we're working on posting all the "i" contributions on the Blog shortly.
Eloise (37),
Precisely what is the difference between a paintball exercise and "terrorist" training? Am I potentially under observation because I've done a couple of parachute drops?
xx
ed
Never, ever lie to someone you love unless you're absolutely sure they'll never find out the truth.
Thu Oct 11 11:43:33 BST 2007
Being an Aberdonian I loved your interview with Michael Forbes - brilliant, and all power to him!
I am so annoyed I missed the piece on therapies - must have been on when I was in nursery collecting my daughter!
I posted a glass box comment earlier which seems to have vanished into the abyss but may well turn up later. However, I completely forgot to mention in that comment the interview with Ben Needham's mother. In comparing her case with the McCanns she said of herself "I'm nothing special". Well she's wrong! She is VERY special - she is dedicated loving mum who has never given up in on her child. That to me makes her an incredibly special person.
Oh, there it is.....
Fiona (49),
AYE to that! God bless her and all who suffer such traumas, regardless of class or media appeal!
Fiona (49) - Yes, I picked up on that and thought exactly the same. Well said.
Ed (21), I was thinking more of inequality (classed, gendered, racialised and so on), cruelty, the obsession with money (and your mention of the pusuit economic growth is somewhat relevant here), internalised feelings of inadequacy casued by society rather than individual failings... I do agree with some of your assessments of the root causes but I know your way after all this time and I'm afraid I will not join you in your casting of blame in the direction of some (I stress the "some") of those who are trying to put these things right, usually in the face of much cyncism and no thanks.
Appy (53 and elsewhere),
I'd love to learn of anyone in any place of high influence who is trying to counteract the religion of economic growth.
All I hear is that we can have moves towards a sane lifestyle only insofar as they don't hamper The Economy, In other words, we can only save the planet if we can afford it.
In any event, you're still welcome in the trees anytime and I promise that when the gin flows the politics stop, or you can hit me with a very large stick.
((((((frug))))))
xxxx
ed
The world will end in 5 minutes. Please log out.
Thu Oct 11 17:54:34 BST 2007
Frugs accepted everywhere Ed (54) -- cheers!
And when you say "high influence"... well that's a whole other debate imho...
There are at least 2 strands to this mental health debate. One is whether any therapy is worth pursuing at all, with correspondents suggesting that the answer to depression is in the political sphere. The other is more about the choice between therapies. A lot of attention has been given to cbt, and it would be good to hear more about other approaches, such as Solution Focused Brief Therapy, which shows equally good results, and often works in a shorter time.