what is old?
Is 66 too old to run a political party? Or is it ok to be 66 but not look it? It's the debate that's continuing today as the repercussions of Sir Menzies Campbell's resignation as Lib Dem leader sink in. Age wasn't the only issue of course - but do you think he should have gone? Just as our programme was ending last night the news started to come through from Westminster that there was to be an announcement about Sir Ming - but we didn't know what it was until an hour or so later. Of course it would have been great to have been able to announce the news in our time, but there you are. That's the way news works.
Fantastic response from you yesterday to the Richard Brunstrom interview . The overwhelming view appeared to be in favour of his call for legalisation of drugs.
see you later,
sequin
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No, 66 is not too old to run a political party. Unless of course you have popular media who decide that age is the story, and won't let go. We are badly served at the moment in this respect, and we suffer the effects of lazy journalism and populist sloganeering. "Shall we look at some Lib Dem policies, or shall we run with how old Ming is again?' "Let's stick with age - everyone'll understand that."
How depressing.
Sid
Here's my thoughts:
Age was certainly a part of it, but I think also that the performance of Sir Menzies during PMQs didn't help. As this is usually all we see of Parliamentary proceedings, the perceptions of the public are shaped by the few minutes a week of the "Punch & Judy" stuff. Unfortunately, Sir Menzies debating skills didn't fit into the ten second soundbite formula, and so he suffered for it in the minds of the public at large. That caused a slide in the opinion polls, and hence the resignation yesterday.It's sad indeed. I just hope the Lib-Dems find a leader who can build on the platform that they have, and grow the party. Without a sizeable third party, we run the risk of descending to a point where the choice between parties becomes so fine-tuned towards certain key marginal seats that it puts off voters across the rest of the country....
BTW: Has everyone notice the headlines and news bulletins are now announced as "大象传媒 News on Radio 4"?
(Moved over from the other thread because this is where it should be...)
Re: Ming's resignation. Serves him right.
He who lives by the shady whispering campaign against his leader, dies by the shady whispering campaign against his leader.
If Ming hadn't encouraged the coup against Charlie Kennedy, the Lib-Dems would have been in a much stronger position than they are. Although he's a wise and able politician, the manner of his coming to power had tainted him, and that was the real problem, not his age.
I'd certainly trust Kennedy even *with* his drink problem over Ming or any of the ambitious tykes coming up under him. I'd trust him even more than Blair, Brown or Cameron in fact.
Bring back Charles!
Sir Ming is NOT old, and indeed is younger than many political party leaders taken over the historical timeline. However, I'm with FFred in that I think his performance at PMQs and elsewhere was below the par we've come to expect from political leaders.
He is a very fine man, somebody for whom I have huge respect, and whose wisdom and great mind this country needs. He has the qualities to lead companies, teams, and other groups. The political world, particularly in this media age, is rather different, and perhaps his style is not suited to this age in the political sphere.
This is not his fault, and he is a man of such conviction that I am perfectly convinced that he would not wish to act out of character just to satisfy the media.
It is the case, in any event, that the 'third party' always has a harder task to make an impact on the media. As has been said by a number of commentators over his resignation, Sir Ming had the further challenge of creating headlines when his party appears to have lost its way somewhat with its political agenda. That, of course, is the fault of the party collectively, not of Sir Ming.
One comment I would like to add to the story, however, is that I would not now vote for the LibDems just as long as certain people, amongst whom I notably number Simon Hughes, remain in the upper echelons because there are undoubtedly a number of troublemakers who seem intent upon making problems for anyone in the leader's seat that is not either them or somebody they have actively and enthusiastically supported.
Beware the kingmakers and those passed over in the succession.
"大象传媒 (beat) Radio 4 News" had a poetic quality to it, like the shipping forecast. I don't know why they've decided to change it, just another constant in ones life that has changed, for the worse.
Must be getting old and grumpy. Ah well.
No being 66 / ageism is not the problem. The ability to punch above your weight is.
Ming was a light weight, nice chap but out of his league when up against Dave and Gordy at PMQ.
LD's need someone who can 'punch' below the belt and until they have someone who can, the likes of Steele, Ashdown or Kennedy, they will be non runners.
No 66 is definitely not old and not too old to be the head of a political party or Prime Minister. I think it's more to do with image and inspiring his party. He also does seem to act older than he is!
FFred - the announcing if R4 News was talked about on ?Feedback the other night. The explanation was resoundingly unconvincing!
Stainless Steel Cat (3)
(Moved over from the other thread because this is where you are as well)
Don't make me laugh about bringing Charles Kennedy back. If Charles Kennedy needed any further evidence that his position as Liberal Democrat leader was no longer sustainable - some 18 months ago - he only had to listen to the comments made by many of his senior lieutenants after his confession that he had sought treatment for alcoholism.
If my memory serves. "A dead-man walking" was the killer phrase used by Chris Davies, the party's leader in the European Parliament. Senior backbencher Nick Harvey said that Mr Kennedy's position was "untenable", and frontbencher Sandra Gidley questioned his ability to confront the "triple demons" of a resurgent Conservative Party, Labour and the bottle.
But these criticisms paled into insignificance compared to the letter of ultimatum issued by 25 MPs, more than one-third of the Parliamentary party, requesting Mr Kennedy. Either he quit or they would have withdrawn their support en masse. At the time they were certainly not the words of embittered MPs speaking anonymously. They were the on-the-record words of prominent, and respected, Liberal Democrats. And, in speaking out, they were speaking not just for themselves, but for the future of their party.
They knew that Mr Kennedy, despite his protestations to the contrary, could NOT lead a party when half of his Shadow Cabinet have signed a letter imploring him to consider his position. How would he be able to look them in the eye when they next met to discuss policy?
Not only that, Kennedy repeatedly denied his alcoholism. He lied to Jeremy Paxman on national television. He lied to the public. He missed meetings and couldn't remember his own policies. If he does not want to cause any further irreversible harm to the future prospects of the Liberal Democrats, I think he must stay away from any leadership contest - period.
GMX (6)
I agree, I heard it the other lunchtime and was also unconvincied.
大象传媒 News.....a brand.....no...I dont think so. What next....News by Virgin on Radio 2, FOX News on Radio1.......
..It think 'Here is the News from the 大象传媒' has a nice 'ring' to it don't u?..
Ah, the cult of youth strikes again. *sigh*
Sixty-six is old enough not to want to be bothered any longer with the peurile garbage in the media, nor with constantly having to fight off stuff that makes it impossible to do a job. It's old enough to have grown out of wasting one's time on turning out meaningless soundbites for the benefit of people who have the social awareness of a cockroach: it wouldn't want to bother to say "I'm a pretty straight-up guy" knowing that would be remembered when the rest of what had been said was ignored and forgotten. And sixty-six is old enough not to want to deal all the time with people who are meant to be one's supporters trying to undermine one's position and take over.
It's a shame that our present system is one that grown-ups don't want to have to deal with any more. Churchill was born in 1874 -- we might be a bit lucky that we were all a bit less stupid about age until recently, and nobody said he was too old to run the country at the age of sixty-six.
re 大象传媒 News for Radio 4 debate - Like others, I'm slightly fazed by it, but thinking about it, it doesn't really matter to the listener, so perhaps we should just 'let 'em get on with it'! It won't make any difference to us, but if there is a genuine concern that it will make a difference for the Beeb, that's okay by me.
Frankly, I find it all rather amusing.
Did anybody watch last night's Newsnight and its appalling coverage of the Campbell resignation?
Somebody please tell me that I misread/misheard Michael Crick being described as the Political Editor! I mean, he is okay if you like a bit of silly but entertaining interviewing and lampooning, but he's not really fit for a position that demands serious political analysis. And who in their right mind let David Grossman start his 'report' with his views on 'sock suspenders'.
Then Kirsty Wark takes it upon herself to suggest to Vince Cable and Simon Hughes that they had been too honest in answering media questions about their leader. I suppose if they had been more coy or restrained she wouldn鈥檛 have accused them of not telling the full truth!
It really is a bit rich for the media to start to analyse the 鈥渢oo old to lead鈥 story when it is the media themselves that have been pushing and promoting the story since Ming Campbell was elected.
Carolyn and Team, do your best to ensure that PM finds a different tack to look at this story.
66 is not that old. Ronald Ray-gun was a lot older when he took over America. I am sorry Mr. Campbell has resigned. In my view he hasn't had time to make an impact, even if he can.
But at 57 I often feel old, especially when I hear pop records from my youth.
Footnote: I wrote to Fifi that I am a miserable old git. She kindly replied that there is nothing miserable about someone who writes their name in huge letters in the sand.
So I was much comforted to be just an old git.
I think Big Sis has summed up my feelings on the subject very well.
All I would like to add is that I feel this latest episode has done a huge amount of damage to the party's credibility. After all they chose him as their leader last year, and now they have, to all intents and purposes, turned against him - and why, because there is preconception that he is too old - something they should have been conscious of prior to selecting him. Also there were questions raised about his dynamic qualities - something which again his party colleagues should have been aware of, they knew him - his strengths and weaknesses, they had faith in him then but now not. It makes the LibDems look a bit Shakespearean to me!
Seems some posts are still disappearing into the ether for reasons only known to the Gods.
Just to re-post the URL for the most graphical illustration of the failures of our electoral system:
(House of Commons research paper)
Page 10 is a good place to start, and you'll be able to see what FFred and Sid have also been pointing out.
Will this get through?
btw, I'm 66 too! I remember the Party at Ken Kesey's House With Hell's Angels (check out adventures in poetry, R4)
xx
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The Government just announced today the creation of the Neutron Bomb II.
Similar to the Neutron Bomb, the Neutron Bomb II not only kills people and leaves buildings standing, but also does a little light housekeeping.
Tue Oct 16 12:20:10 BST 2007
Deviant practises outside marriage, using rent-boys and drinking to excess are clear signs that you are unfit for high office but getting old is not, unless you are a Lib Dem apparently
Fiona (14) - I think the problem is that the membership chose him (we all get a vote) but the MPs turned against him. Two different groups, each with their own distinct viewpoint.
Sid
A rare occasion! I agree with Brian (15)!
If life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Tue Oct 16 12:55:11 BST 2007
I'm feeling very disadvantaged. A couple of serious posts dealing with our democratic deficit and Sir Ming's age-ist difficulties have failed to appear!
Is it because I is 66?
PUSH!
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ed
It is a sobering thought that when Mozart was my age, he had been dead for two years.
-- Tom Lehrer
That 'news on Radio 4' as opposed to 'Radio 4 news' thing: I suppose one might say that the former means 'the news about all sorts of things, being broadcast on Radio 4', whereas the latter could be taken to mean 'the news about Radio 4' -- which might be true but would get rather dull after a bit.
I have to admit to not caring. It's like the pips on the hour: they used to be six all the same length, then at some point someone decided to elongate the last pip so that it goes bip bip bip bip bip beep now. When that was done some people got very upset and said 'How rude! They assumed the listeners can't count up to six!' Do I care? I do not.
In the televisual age of rolling news 66 is indeed too old to run a political party. Chris (10) makes a point concerning Churchill's age, but that was before the TV era.
There is much truth already on this thread, i.e. FFred (2) concerning parliamentary performance; the Cat (3) who mentioned 'live by the sword', etc; DIW (6) who mentioned his political weight; GM (7) who mentioned his apparent age (I'd assumed he was in his early 70's); MotP (8) concerning the downfall of Champagne Charlie.
There was an insightful comment on News24 yesterday that the main agent in Campbell's downfall was one G. Brown. By knocking back the date of any general election to 2009 / 10 he brought Ming's age back into play. He'll be teetering around his 68th birthday by then and by the time that Parliament has run a four-year course he'll be 72-ish. That is, arguably too old in this day and age for the position that he held.
No one can pretend that the LibDems will confidently challenge to win or come second in a General Election poll any time soon (sorry Sid C.). But in the event of a hung parliament they might become kingmakers, so the job of leader assumes a rising importanceas the lead in opinion polls alternates between Labour and Conservative. An ageing leader would not 'look good' next to a younger Prime Minister from one of the other two main parties.
Sad, it may well be. A fact of life, it certainly is.
Ed I;
You may well be 66, but you've a better line in political argument than Ming! And you don't act like you're 66, he acted even older.
Si.
Intermittent Horse - Surely 'Intermittent Newsnight Viewer' ? Well Michael Crick was never going to reach the high standards set by Martha Kearney, but hey, he ain't that bad...
As for Sequin's rather facile assertion that because a lot of people on the internet think drugs should be legalised, that that can be extrapolated to the whole population, even the older generation who may be against it, but not online, well dearie dearie me...- If that isn't 'ageist' I don't know what is...
push? (in a soft, inoffensive voice)
What is old? Depends on your point of view (Mary Poppins).
If I told you we have a freezer 31 years old, you might say that's really ancient. On WATO today someone aged 40 was described as young. When I helped a youth group and I was 23 they said I had one foot in the grave...
Legalisation of drugs will not go down well with the new Puritans. I do not agree with use of '60's drugs but the new Puritans appear to be restricting people enjoying themselves like drinking wine. Rasputin is alleged to have said that in order to confess sins you have to have sinned. I wish........
Si (21), Thanks, but I feel even older..
Someone's helpfully edited one of my posts to get it through (perhaps I mis-linked) - thanks Marc, if it wuz u, and thanks to whoever it wuz.
Still not appearing is my suggestion that the "大象传媒 News" business is an attempt to become distinct from any particular network which may be in line for budgetary constraint (to put it politely) All the 'brands' competing for recognition.
Further evidence, if any were needed of our 'atomised' culture, the root of a lot of our problems.
Financial markets continue to slide.........Dow-Jones' computers are going dodgy......
xx
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From the fortune cookie lucky dip:
You will always get the greatest recognition for the job you least like.
People are like onions -- you cut them up, and they make you cry.
Tue Oct 16 15:28:55 BST 2007
When you think what other Liberal leaders have got up to (ahem) Jeremy Thorpe for example. I suppose being 'dumped' because you're knocking on a bit is not much to write home about. That's probably why we haven't heard from Sir Ming in the meja.
TSSC (3),
From your comments, I would have to gather that you've never had to rely on an alcoholic in denial for anything, let alone bet your own, your families' livelihood and the efforts of thousands of volunteers on one. I've had to deal with two alcoholics in my life and asking people as ill as CK was to lead a poltical party is too much.
CK's downfall was not Ming it was his illness. Not turning up and turning up drunk to meetings, in my book, makes you unfit to lead a political party. It is terribly sad for CK, his family, his friends and indeed the Lib Dems but not the fault of the Lib Dems.
I think Ming's age was an issue: with the media, who seem to require the people on TV to subscribe to the cult of youth. But then, maybe it's us, the public, as the media only deliver what they think the public wants. I believe Ming's decision to step down now is because he can see his profile in the media is damaging the party and no matter what he did it wasn't getting any better.
He didn't come across as effectively at PMQs - compared to Cameron and Brown/Blair all 3rd party leaders are at a disadvantage. Despatch Boxes to lean on are a very useful prop and also the leader of the Lib Dems, whoever they are, tends to get heckled far more than the other two; it is not in the main parties interests to do anyhthing else and half the people get up and walk out as they start speaking.
Compared to his predecessors, well neither of them were particulalrly effective in the HoC for the reasons I've stated above. They were perhaps better on 'Have I got news for you'.....
Did Ming lack zing? Yes, a bit. Did he look as young as the other two, no, but then that's becasue he wasn't. Personally, I think he looked older than 66 but that's probably as a result of beating cancer a few years ago. But he was experienced and had excellent judgement - the best foreign secretary that Britain never had. I think that judgement has followed through into his decision yesterday.
Fiona (14), I honestly don't think it was the party turning against him as much as the media turning against him and what party can afford to have a leader that the media doesn't like?
Too busy to reply at length, but - this is a fabulous and classic frog thread, and thanks!
NB (28),
Wise words for a blonde.
xx
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sunset, n.:
Pronounced atmospheric scattering of shorter wavelengths, resulting in selective transmission below 650 nanometers with progressively reducing solar elevation.
Natural Blonde:
"I honestly don't think it was the party turning against him as much as the media turning against him and what party can afford to have a leader that the media doesn't like? "
It is indeed true that the media have given him a needlessly hard time, but some high profile members of his party haven't helped. They have been so limp in their support of him as to be at best unhelpful and at worst duplicitous. As I've already said, I think his style was perhaps unhelpful in the present political climate, but so was the faint praise by which his colleagues praised him.
Sir Ming has undoubtedly had a hard time both with his health and with his party. I am relieved, for his sake, that he has got out now because the chalice that he was given was becoming increasingly poisoned, and he did not deserve that.
He is still a great man in my eyes, and I hope now that his true friends will support him and ensure that his talents are not lost to the service of Britain. Or, if he has truly lost the will to do put his head on the block again (which I could entirely understand) that he will find a fine adventure for himself and his wife that will take him off on a completely different, and happier, tack.
NB @ 28, I will hold Ed @ 30 down for you if you wish to flail him about the ears with an organic carrot.
I'll drink to that, Sis! (or is that inappropriate?)
Here's to Ming, the best foreign minister we never had, and once the fastest white man on Earth.
May God grant him a satisfying retirement, active as he wishes.
Slainte!
ed
Remember, God could only create the world in 6 days because he didn't have an established user base.
Tue Oct 16 17:02:36 BST 2007
Big Sis,
Yes, you have a point there about the feint praise, especally that doled out by Simon Hughes on Sunday.
I think the saddest thing about all this, and the thing that reflects so badly on the media and the society that we all form part of is this: he was an olympic athlete, a QC, a wise and experienced MP and in the end all that seemed to count was that he didn't look young enough.
I am a little perplexed that he didn't make the statement himself but I rather feel that he's just very relieved today.
Ed: :-)
As a member of the Lib Dems, and an American who can't vote in an election, but can vote for the leader of the party, I replied to an email sent to me by the Lib Dems about the resignation by saying that Campbell's speech at the confrence was boring and his jokes weren't funny. I also said that he is useless at PMQ and while at 66 not being too old, he looks too old. (I am 67). I voted for Chris Huhne last time and will do so again. (Unless they throw me out of the party for my forthright views, that is.)
How old was Callaghan when he was PM ? over 60 I'm sure. Aren't we all living longer and meant to be working longer ? Why do the press call the likes of the Milliband bros and Ed' Balls "teenagers" ? when in normal jobs early 40's is mature.Blair was seen as "young" at the begining and now so is Cameron. Once you are over 40 in "real world" its quite hard to get a job interview, despite the legislation its seen as a young people's game. What happened to all the young student activists you used to see at party conferences ? what happened to swampy ? is he wearing a suit and working in the City now ? No-one said Nelson Mandela was too old did they ! alot of Councillors are "retired" and a lot of "retired" people do a huge ammount for charity etc. We can't help what we look like (comment 35) what do you expect ? jeans and trainers ? D Milliband has been told he "looks 14" why all the personal comments ? Charles Kennedy was an MP at 23 he got on with the job. You can stand for election at 18 now and there are 18 year old Councillors. Let's stop being obssessed by age!
The media is ageist. If there was ----ism in any other category,ie gender or race, someone would have had the police knocking on their door by now.
The 大象传媒 is obsessed with the cult of 'youth' and people of a certain generation feel invisible.
Some of the questions Ming Campbell was asked, including by interviewers on P.M. were extremely embarrassing cringemaking.
I'm a life-long Liberal / Lib-Dem voter, aged 45.
I don't resent Ming for ousting Charlie - the wee sot needed to get away and sort himself out. And, for me, age is not really relevant. But I'm not really sorry to see Ming go. He was worthy but (and?) dull. If he'd been a bit more lively, age would not have been an issue.
Christina Tyree: What you say echoes something that has crossed my mind a lot in recent years, namely that the window for being a politician appears to be extremely narrow these days. If you're in your forties, you may be deemed too young, in your fifties, apparently you're 'just right', but just as soon as you hit the bit six oh you're suddenly over the hill.
But, then again, I've also heard recently people in their sixties being referred to as elderly - which, for most in that age group, is utter rot. We are a society obsessed, yet confused, about age, and it's really time we grew up (pun intended).
Liberal? Democrats? Don't make me laugh. They don't deserve Ming. He's well out of it.
A few random thoughts:
A party leader aged 40-something is described as "young". A party leader aged 60-something is described as "old".
A sportsperson in their teens is described as "young". A sportsperson in their 30s is described as "old".
Then the extent to which your physical appearance changes as you advance in years can play a part...how many of these well-known people would you describe as "too old" or "past it"?
Michael "Hurricane" Fish - 63
Paul McCartney - 65
Harry Webb (aka Cliff Richard) - 67
Bruce Forsyth - 79
Joseph Ratzinger (aka Pope Benedict XVI) - 80
HM The Queen - 81
Clement Freud - 83
Nicholas Parsons - 84 (*)
Humph(rey Lyttelton) - 86
Philip Mountbatten (D of E) - 86
IMHO the priest and maybe one or two others qualify for the title, but not the rest...
* - worryingly, whilst searching wikipedia I discovered one enterprising Geocities user has transcribed a whole bunch of Just a Minute episodes, and claims to be adding two new ones per week! Doesn't he have anything better to be doing with his time?!
mittfh @ 41, worrying indeed. So much of Just a Minute depends on tone of voice, length of pause, and other verbal things that surely can't be transcribed readily and convey the effect?
Ed (33)
May I join you? Here's to Ming.
Sid
And another, Sid?
Slainte!
The trouble with superheros is what to do between phone booths.
-- Ken Kesey