Emerald Isle wants answers after World Cup flop (130)
- 1 Oct 07, 05:57 PM
It hasn鈥檛 quite matched the national trauma induced by departure from five years ago but Ireland rugby team鈥檚 hapless efforts in France have gripped the over the past three weeks.
Two months ago, a semi-final place in this World Cup was being spoken about as the minimum acceptable requirement for this so-called Golden Generation of Irish players.
Instead, their World Cup was over before we made it into October as the shambolic displays against and Georgia were followed by conclusive defeats against and .
Three weeks and four poor displays should have been ample time to reach some sort of national consensus on what precisely went wrong.
But as Eddie O鈥橲ullivan, his backroom men and the Irish players get ready to dodge the metaphorical rotten which are being stacked up for them, the reality is that the country is still in the dark as to what caused the flop.
For this observer, the most worrying moment in the World Cup came after the dire display against when O鈥橲ullivan confessed to not knowing what was going wrong with his squad.
It hardly smacked of a reassuring hand on the helm and at that point, a real sense of foreboding began to creep in about the team鈥檚 prospects of making the last eight.
The ship was already taking on water and if the coach didn鈥檛 know how to plug the holes, a sinking seemed inevitable. So it proved on Sunday.
Despite their shrugged shoulders, the players must have more than a few thoughts on why the team and the management failed so abjectly.
So far, no player has been prepared to put their head above the parapet beyond stating the blindingly obvious that the team 鈥渄idn鈥檛 play well鈥.
In his column on Monday, seemed to rule out the suggestion that the team had 鈥渙vertrained鈥 but all the appearances suggest that a staleness had set in.
Apart from one week off in July, the Irish squad were together from late June until now although they were allowed to return home to their loved ones on several weekends.
The staleness and lack of snap exhibited itself most sharply in the pack with the Irish forwards being pushed backwards, time and time again, in each of the four games.
Gone was the physicality which had unhinged and at last autumn and demolished England鈥檚 big pack last February at .
So much was expected of but he had an awful tournament and the nagging worry is that, like many of his forward colleagues, his best days may be behind him.
O鈥橲ullivan鈥檚 bizarre decision not to start in any of the four games didn鈥檛 help the Irish and the three weeks were littered with baffling selections calls by the coach 鈥 notably leaving Geordan Murphy out of the 22 for the France match.
Emboldened by the 鈥檚 incredible decision to grant him a four-year contract extension in August, O鈥橲ullivan has insisted that he expects to remain on in the job.
On the face of it, O鈥橲ullivan is on shaky ground after his team鈥檚 dismal showing and all logic suggests that his six-year tenure should be ended just as paid the price for Wales鈥 World Cup failure.
In addition, O鈥橲ullivan has virtually no supporters in the influential Irish rugby media after the team鈥檚 failure and as will testify, it鈥檚 usually impossible to hang on when almost all the press guns are being fired in your direction.
But IRFU politics could save O鈥橲ullivan given that it would represent an embarrassing admission of bad judgement by the chief blazers if they sacked the coach.
That鈥檚 not to mention the cash the IRFU would have to fork out to pay off a departing O鈥橲ullivan.
The lack of obvious domestic replacements also could help to save O鈥橲ullivan with coach surely needing more experience before stepping into the job and Declan Kidney unlikely to be on the IRFU鈥檚 radar.
Given the struggles in this World Cup, the IRFU should be sounding out suitable candidates from the such as .
But the IRFU may deem that suitable candidates are simply not available at this stage and give O鈥橲ullivan a stay of execution at least until next year鈥檚 .
John Haughey is a journalist at 大象传媒 Sport in Belfast.
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Ireland selectors and management have to take a look at each other, Players together since June, 30 players picked only 19 used, no sign of blooding new players picking players on their past reputations. EOS has gone stale, wide expansive game never has materilised, players not playing for the shirt,too m uch outside courtships with media and sponsors. The rugby support in Ireland are loyal and will back the team, but I do believe they would like to see a change ion the management system. After RWC 1999 EOS was given the reigns and WG ousted I firmly believe the same course of action is required and dead wood removed before we become a minnow in world rugby team.
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Wouldn't bother with next years 6 nations. They were crap OS was crap the whole kit was crap.. .......More to the point they look like idiots.....and they are finished.
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Ireland selectors and management have to take a look at each other, Players together since June, 30 players picked only 19 used, no sign of blooding new players picking players on their past reputations. EOS has gone stale, wide expansive game never has materilised, players not playing for the shirt,too m uch outside courtships with media and sponsors. The rugby support in Ireland are loyal and will back the team, but I do believe they would like to see a change ion the management system. After RWC 1999 EOS was given the reigns and WG ousted I firmly believe the same course of action is required and dead wood removed before we become a minnow in word rugby team.
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In all the discussions about the reasons for Ireland's - and indeed Wales' dismal performances - no one has commented on the role played - or not played - by their respective captains in directing the game and ensuring that the teams played sensibly and carefully for the full 80 minutes. O'Driscoll in particular reminded me of a headless chicken running hither and thither in a manner calculated to inspire his team to emulate the same rather senseless behaviour. It was not a captain's performance.
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For the life of me I cannot see how EOS can continue even if he has his new contract. Why bring Carney,Sheahan,O'Kelly and Quinlan when they are of an age where they need to be playing. Surely Kearney,Fitzgerald,Gannon,Jackman and Heaslip would have been better options for EOS to bring and evaluate for use after WC. Ireland cannot do the basics at the moment but I watched Munster in the Magners League and they were able to offload in the tackle which seemed to be outside the skillset of this bunch which represented us at the WC. We need to look at our young players now,which we have an abundance of,and make it a condition of EOS continuing if the suits will not get rid of EOS
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I can't believe that you expected to top your group and get a semifinal! So you won a Triple Crown this year, big deal. I hope the performance of the Six Nations teams this world cup has shown you how meaningless that is in terms of WORLD rugby. You were facing France (at home) and Argentina (a team that had beaten France twice this year). At the time, all three teams were pretty much identical on points in the world rankings, someone had to miss out.
I really can't believe this is coming as a shock to the Irish. Sounds to me like you started believing your own hype. Argentina are a quality side, I find the NH response to their deserved wins over both yourself and France, insulting. I can only presume it comes from ignorance.
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AK, this Irish team hammmered SA & Australia in recent times, & gave NZ a real fight in NZ. If you really can't believe struggling to beat the likes of Namibia & Georgia came as a shock, then I struggle to see what kind of knowledge of the game you possess.
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The simple matter is performance rather than selection. EOS failed to get the best out of his players which in basic shorthand is the essential task of the coach. The selection criticism has been overdone; he could indeed have used more players but more fundamental is that he failed to extract the best from those which he fielded. Any arguments about the 30 he picked in the squad and the 15 he fielded,is generally nitpicking. BOD played well in the tournament (despite the jealous sniping evident in comments on this Board)but no other player performed to their potential. The Geordan Murphy exclusion was more than vindicated by his abject performance last night. I should say that the ill-deserved reputation of Geordan Murphy is largely based on the an Irish inferiority complex that because he plays for "Leicester", he must be brillant. He is not and has never been. He lacks the pace and physicality to be a top international. Anyhow we have to look overseas for a coach, Nick Mallet (if he can be prised away from the Italians)and Eddie Jones appear to be the best replacements.
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Time for a change definitely. The team is the same as those who played last autumn and in triple crown win last spring. Something must have been wrong in the preperation for the RWC to have them looking like a team that at times seemed to lack energy, that didn't seem to be able to do the simple things and didn't seem capable of changing the game plan when it clearly was not working. To make things worse there was no squad rotation leaving those outside the first fifteen wondering what's the point of effort knowing even if they put in a good ten minutes (those few that even got that chance) they are back on or maybe off the bench again next game. It has also given the fist fifteen too much of a comfort zone. But worse is the fact that when any of those first fifteen goes through a bad patch we don't have replacements who have been given a fair chance to get used to the team at full international level.
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Well thats says it all. If EOS after being in the job, and with these bunch of players for >6 yrs "doesn't know" where it went wrong, and couldn't put it right then he should be shown the door. His cluelessness has transferred to the players. You've had a good run at it Eddie. Its time for a fresh approach.
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Time for a change definitely. The team is the same as those who played last autumn and in triple crown win last spring. Something must have been wrong in the preperation for the RWC to have them looking like a team that at times seemed to lack energy, that didn't seem to be able to do the simple things and didn't seem capable of changing the game plan when it clearly was not working. To make things worse there was no squad rotation leaving those outside the first fifteen wondering what's the point of effort knowing even if they put in a good ten minutes (those few that even got that chance) they are back on or maybe off the bench again next game. It has also given the fist fifteen too much of a comfort zone. But worse is the fact that when any of those first fifteen goes through a bad patch we don't have replacements who have been given a fair chance to get used to the team at full international level.
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Even though both Georgia and Namibia deserve great praise for their determined performances in this tournament, Ireland have no excuses.
Failing to record a bonus point against Georgia is unforgivable. Ireland have a wealth of talented players who all play professional rugby week in week out for top European Clubs, how can they all play so poorly?
Group D was always going to be tough, indeed both England and Scotland would have struggled to progress, however, it was the way in which Ireland limped out without ever once threatening to sparkle, that disappointed the most.
O'Driscoll had some typical moments of magic, as did a few other players on very rare occasions, and indeed the try scored by Murphy against Argentina was one of the best of the tournament, yet no-one performed consistently well.
O'Gara was dreadful and the lack of depth at ten was possibly the downfall of the Irish. Hernandez showed how to control a game of rugby for 80 minutes, O'Gara should take note.
Hopefully they can begin to rebuild, and quickly, but they definitely need to follow a new path, and Eddie O'Sullivan cannot be the man to lead them.
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Time for a change definitely. The team is the same as those who played last autumn and in triple crown win last spring. Something must have been wrong in the preperation for the RWC to have them looking like a team that at times seemed to lack energy, that didn't seem to be able to do the simple things and didn't seem capable of changing the game plan when it clearly was not working. To make things worse there was no squad rotation leaving those outside the first fifteen wondering what's the point of effort knowing even if they put in a good ten minutes (those few that even got that chance) they are back on or maybe off the bench again next game. It has also given the fist fifteen too much of a comfort zone. But worse is the fact that when any of the first fifteen goes through a bad patch we don't have replacements who have been given a fair chance to get used to the team at full international level.
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Even though both Georgia and Namibia deserve great praise for their determined performances in this tournament, Ireland have no excuses.
Failing to record a bonus point against Georgia is unforgivable.
Group D was always going to be tough, indeed both England and Scotland would have struggled to progress, however, it was the way in which Ireland limped out without ever once threatening to sparkle, that disappointed the most.
Even though Murphy's try against Argentina was one of the best of the tournament, no-one performed consistently well.
O'Gara was dreadful and the lack of depth at ten was possibly the downfall of the Irish. Hernandez showed how to control a game of rugby for 80 minutes, O'Gara should take note.
Hopefully they can rebuild, but they definitely need to follow a new path, and Eddie O'Sullivan cannot be the man to lead them down it.
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Ireland will now probably go out and win the Six Nations, and everyone will be left to wonder why they couldn't hack it in the world cup.
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Ireland's dismal display has resulted from poor preparation.Although the team was training together continuously they were not playing together. The first team did not play from the last match of the six nations until the final warm up game at home to italy! going to argentina with a weakened team only allowed them to build momentum and ireland to lose it! ireland should have gone out there full strength and really dented their confidence and then the first team could have had a short rest before beginning the world cup warm ups. The rustiness and loss of momentum was all too clear to see in the world cup, when it really mattered! Additionally, why the IRFU felt the need to have a warm up game against a second rate french club side is beyond me! EOS must go!
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Ireland's dismal display has resulted from poor preparation.Although the team was training together continuously they were not playing together. The first team did not play from the last match of the six nations until the final warm up game at home to italy! going to argentina with a weakened team only allowed them to build momentum and ireland to lose it! ireland should have gone out there full strength and really dented their confidence and then the first team could have had a short rest before beginning the world cup warm ups. The rustiness and loss of momentum was all too clear to see in the world cup, when it really mattered! Additionally, why the IRFU felt the need to have a warm up game against a second rate french club side is beyond me! EOS must go!
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wholesale changes is not the answer. The answer will be our performance in 6 Nations. I don't think players like POC are past their best. I think factors have conspired against us (e.g ROG home problems, Argenina beating France, combined with poor coaching decisions e.g the hotel and poor warm up games) making these great players look ordinary. They will come good but fresh blood should be introduced to shake people out of their comfort zones.
The reality is that there are talented players in the Irish set up but if form isn't there they need to be dropped even if that means that you forsake brilliance. ROG's pass for the try was sublime - ROGs chip in first 5 mins that was so almost gathered for a try was brilliant. But his simple errors in kicking from hand were terrifing. Wallace should have got some game time even though he may not have ROG;s class. Ulster have not done the Irish game favours by not playing Wallace at 10 - I also understand that Connacht wanted him for 10 but he didn;t want to go south.
The problems cannot all be laid at EOS's door. It could have been very different if France had beaten Argentina...
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Eddie should go, he has had his time, he had six years to prepare the best set of Irish players for this tournament and it has been a shambolic failure, a "shambolix" of a preformance. There is surely no way that the IRFU can justify keeping Eddie on as coach now. What more evidence do they need that a new coach is needed.
How about Mike Ruddock as a replacement. He got a much poorer squad of welsh players playing very exciting rugby AND they won the 6 nations, something Eddie hasn't achieved with a much better squad of players.
However they line up for the job it is very clear that eddie must be let go. Coaches and managers in sport have been sacked for alot less than this. The IRFU will be letting down irish rugby fans in a major way if there isn't changes at coaching level.
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wholesale changes is not the answer. The answer will be our performance in 6 Nations. I don't think players like POC are past their best. I think factors have conspired against us (e.g ROG home problems, Argenina beating France, combined with poor coaching decisions e.g the hotel and poor warm up games) making these great players look ordinary. They will come good but fresh blood should be introduced to shake people out of their comfort zones.
The reality is that there are talented players in the Irish set up but if form isn't there they need to be dropped even if that means that you forsake brilliance. ROG's pass for the try was sublime - ROGs chip in first 5 mins that was so almost gathered for a try was brilliant. But his simple errors in kicking from hand were terrifing. Wallace should have got some game time even though he may not have ROG;s class. Ulster have not done the Irish game favours by not playing Wallace at 10 - I also understand that Connacht wanted him for 10 but he didn;t want to go south.
The problems cannot all be laid at EOS's door. It could have been very different if France had beaten Argentina...
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Eddie should go, he has had his time, he had six years to prepare the best set of Irish players for this tournament and it has been a shambolic failure, a "shambolix" of a preformance. There is surely no way that the IRFU can justify keeping Eddie on as coach now. What more evidence do they need that a new coach is needed.
How about Mike Ruddock as a replacement. He got a much poorer squad of welsh players playing very exciting rugby AND they won the 6 nations, something Eddie hasn't achieved with a much better squad of players.
Whoever they line up for the job it is very clear that eddie must be let go. Coaches and managers in sport have been sacked for alot less than this. The IRFU will be letting down irish rugby fans in a major way if there isn't changes at coaching level.
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wholesale changes is not the answer. The answer will be our performance in 6 Nations. I don't think players like POC are past their best. I think factors have conspired against us (e.g ROG home problems, Argenina beating France, combined with poor coaching decisions e.g the hotel and poor warm up games) making these great players look ordinary. They will come good but fresh blood should be introduced to shake people out of their comfort zones.
The reality is that there are talented players in the Irish set up but if form isn't there they need to be dropped even if that means that you forsake brilliance. ROG's pass for the try was sublime - ROGs chip in first 5 mins that was so almost gathered for a try was brilliant. But his simple errors in kicking from hand were terrifing. Wallace should have got some game time even though he may not have ROG;s class. Ulster have not done the Irish game favours by not playing Wallace at 10 - I also understand that Connacht wanted him for 10 but he didn;t want to go south.
The problems cannot all be laid at EOS's door. It could have been very different if France had beaten Argentina...
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Eddie should go, he has had his time, he had six years to prepare the best set of Irish players for this tournament and it has been a shambolic failure, a "shambolix" of a preformance. There is surely no way that the IRFU can justify keeping Eddie on as coach now. What more evidence do they need that a new coach is needed.
How about Mike Ruddock as a replacement. He got a much poorer squad of welsh players playing very exciting rugby AND they won the 6 nations, something Eddie hasn't achieved with a much better squad of players.
However they line up for the job it is very clear that eddie must be let go. Coaches and managers in sport have been sacked for alot less than this. The IRFU will be letting down irish rugby fans in a major way if there isn't changes at coaching level.
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This is as bad as it gets and there is no point in the whole of Ireland going into denial.
Changes - in preparation, selection, coaching and above all tactics - are necessary. The coach to do this must be in the New Zealand telephone directory! Somebody from the IRFU should make the call.
As for Eddie O'S- in the corporate world he would have been sacked already.
Come on Ireland - show the spirit and passion for which we were famous until yesterday.
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Eddie should go, he has had his time, he had six years to prepare the best set of Irish players for this tournament and it has been a shambolic failure, a "shambolix" of a preformance. There is surely no way that the IRFU can justify keeping Eddie on as coach now. What more evidence do they need that a new coach is needed.
How about Mike Ruddock as a replacement. He got a much poorer squad of welsh players playing very exciting rugby AND they won the 6 nations, something Eddie hasn't achieved with a much better squad of players.
Whoever they line up for the job it is very clear that eddie must be let go. Coaches and managers in sport have been sacked for alot less than this. The IRFU will be letting down irish rugby fans in a major way if there isn't changes at coaching level.
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It is not uncommon, over a spectrum of sports, for a fancied team to enter a tournament and inexplicably underperform. It happens every time in the football World Cup and in cricket tournaments. Perhaps the weight of expectation becomes too great for the top players (of whom the most is naturally expected) to give their best. The fear of failure becomes the dominant force. The give-away sign is that the whole Irish team failed to play with the freedom and confidence of recent years. Some blame for this of course can be laid at the door of the coaches - mental preparation can be just as critical as physical conditioning and tactics.
Poster No.6 does have a point: Ireland are actually below both France and Argentina in the IRB rankings. On the other hand this does not explain the abject showing against Georgia or Namibia.
By the way it is ridiculous to say tha Paul O'Connell's best days are behind him. He is still short of his 28th birthday and locks can play at the top level well into their thirties (e.g. Martin Johnson)
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Not sure how accurate this is, but a friend who played at a senior level, and who has friends still in the setup in the Magners League, says the Irish camp is in total dissarray. By all accounts BOD is effectively picking the players, and there's a total breakdown between the players from each of the provinces. I'm sure if its the case it will all come out, but there must be something pretty much amiss in that squad for them to fall that badly.
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wholesale changes is not the answer. The answer will be our performance in 6 Nations. I don't think players like POC are past their best. I think factors have conspired against us (e.g ROG home problems, Argenina beating France, combined with poor coaching decisions e.g the hotel and poor warm up games) making these great players look ordinary. They will come good but fresh blood should be introduced to shake people out of their comfort zones.
The reality is that there are talented players in the Irish set up but if form isn't there they need to be dropped even if that means that you forsake brilliance. ROG's pass for the try was sublime - ROGs chip in first 5 mins that was so almost gathered for a try was brilliant. But his simple errors in kicking from hand were terrifing. Wallace should have got some game time even though he may not have ROG;s class. Ulster have not done the Irish game favours by not playing Wallace at 10 - I also understand that Connacht wanted him for 10 but he didn;t want to go south.
The problems cannot all be laid at EOS's door. It could have been very different if France had beaten Argentina...
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I am concerned about:
1. A lack of alternatives to EoS - 4 provincial teams are not enough to get a conveyor belt of players it would seem, never mind a coach.
2. The decision to award a new contract to EoS before the RWC. It only makes sense if you believed that he was off elsewhere and was irreplaceable.
3. The failure to broaden the base of players with international experience and hence ability. In case it has not been noticed, players get older and will need to be replaced. At the very point of maximum achievement the players need to be shown the precarious nature of their tenure. When the senior players have demonstrated their abilities, they can take a break not knowing whether those being groomed for their ultimate replacement will get in consistently sooner rather than later. Ireland's results may not represent anything more than a 5% dip in form - but it is the difference between winning and losing. It is hard to credit that in a rather supine performance there was no realistic alternative to Horan, Leamy, Wallace, Easterby, D'Arcy, RoG. Hayes played all 4 matches - at his age he needed a break. Never mind the decisions to leave behind Gleeson, Cullen, Casey etc. Seems to me that EoS could not explain this: either there has been a failure to develop the players; alternatively there was a failure to select the players for the squad; alternatively, there was a failure to select from the squad.
4. There is no hiding place in professional sport - it is unforgiving. The public have invested heavily in every sense - emotionally, in money terms and with their time. They are entitled to have sensible answers to legitimate questions. It is not all a matter of judgement and therefore susceptible to the "I see it differently" defence. If the alternative players exist - where are they? If they don't exist - why not? This looks to me like a structural problem and the IRFU are responsible. Those'll be the guys that gave EoS the additional 4 years.
5. Ireland look like a long term project for a team dedicated to making rugby union the Number One game in this island and for all those Georgians, Namibians, Argentinians, Anglos, etc etc who want to be Irish and play.
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OS must go. The problems in the team were evident long before the RWC - in last year's Six Nations. Their play then was stale and predictable and they were fortunate to take away the 'mickey mouse' Triple Crown. Both Argentina and France had beaten them before the RWC. I reckon the heads went down as soon as the draw was made.
In France the players looked jaded. The coaching team ran out of ideas 18 months ago. But what to do about it? The whole lot of them should be cleared out and if necessary, Ireland should opt out of all international rugby until such time as we have a team worthy of the jersey. Of course there is a fat chance of the alikadoos in blazers agreeing to that! More realistically, we must find a Southern hemisphere coach, we must improve the training regimes - it is not all about fitness - it is as much about accuracy. Do they train for accuracy? I mean accurate passing skills, and lineout accuracy. I doubt it.
This particular Irish supporter for over 59 years is tranferring his allegiance to Argentina until the IRFU gets its act together.
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OS must go. The problems in the team were evident long before the RWC - in last year's Six Nations. Their play then was stale and predictable and they were fortunate to take away the 'mickey mouse' Triple Crown. Both Argentina and France had beaten them before the RWC. I reckon the heads went down as soon as the draw was made.
In France the players looked jaded. The coaching team ran out of ideas 18 months ago. But what to do about it? The whole lot of them should be cleared out and if necessary, Ireland should opt out of all international rugby until such time as we have a team worthy of the jersey. Of course there is a fat chance of the alikadoos in blazers agreeing to that! More realistically, we must find a Southern hemisphere coach, we must improve the training regimes - it is not all about fitness - it is as much about accuracy. Do they train for accuracy? I mean accurate passing skills, and lineout accuracy. I doubt it.
This particular Irish supporter for over 59 years is tranferring his allegiance to Argentina until the IRFU gets its act together.
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Andrew, what do last years results against other teams have to do with beating Argentina or France this year?
You haven't beaten France since 2003 and Argentina are in the best form ever. Beating France at home was never very likely and beating Argentina (a fantastic side with brilliant tactics) was always going to be a big ask. The Irish refusal to give credit where credit is due and acknowledge that they were beaten by a superior side on Sunday is dissapointing.
Why are you all so shocked that you didn't make it out of the pool of death?
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OS must go. The problems in the team were evident long before the RWC - in last year's Six Nations. Their play then was stale and predictable and they were fortunate to take away the 'mickey mouse' Triple Crown. Both Argentina and France had beaten them before the RWC. I reckon the heads went down as soon as the draw was made.
In France the players looked jaded. The coaching team ran out of ideas 18 months ago. But what to do about it? The whole lot of them should be cleared out and if necessary, Ireland should opt out of all international rugby until such time as we have a team worthy of the jersey. Of course there is a fat chance of the alikadoos in blazers agreeing to that! More realistically, we must find a Southern hemisphere coach, we must improve the training regimes - it is not all about fitness - it is as much about accuracy. Do they train for accuracy? I mean accurate passing skills, and lineout accuracy. I doubt it very much.
Worse than the inept play and idiotic tactics was the behaviour of many of the players, condoned apparently by OS. Some of them, the Munster contingent are notorious, believe that their mini-celebrity status justifies misbehaviour on the pitch. They seem to think that cursing at the referee, punching, and dosing out abuse generally is perfectly fine. I have news for them - it ain't! The players and the managment have lost the plot. By their attitudes and behaviour they have diminished themselves, rugby and Ireland. This particular Irish supporter for over 50 years has transferred his allegiance to Argentina until such time as the IRFU gets its act together.
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Lets applaud the Argentinians (and the Georgians for
that matter)
Ireland are nothing short of a disgrace. We deserved
to be beaten by more and I applaud the pumas who麓ve
been wonderful all through the tournament. In the
final analysis the IRFU fired Warren Gatland -
insulting him by letting him go weeks before the
natural end to his contract. He took a ragged team of
losers and an even more ragged organisation and won 4
out of 5 six nations games (completing this
achievement days before he was insulted as described).
Gatland is an ex-All Black who knows how to win and
how to listen to the experts he hires and empowers to
work with him. So we insulted him by letting him go
and bringing in an average coach with no pedigree and
a background in Irish and North American Rugby. 脡OS
works very hard and has a professional attitude but he
lacks the winning instinct, brain power and ability to
listen to those around him - apart from the fact he
has no charisma. EOS is a superb politician - this
talent is the reason the IRFU insulted Gatland and its
also the reason he managed to get a 4 yr renewal on
the eve of the world cup. Eddy, who for some reason
they thought was a talented coach, was waving his
green card under their noses. Now it will cost us a
fortune to get rid of him. We never had a team to
touch New Zealand but we had players that could
compete at the highest level and perhaps even good
enough to grace a final - certainly a semi. What a
waste. I麓ve been complaining about EOS right through
the pseudo-good times and bad times - we won nothing.
Absolutely nothing. A triple crown has no meaning
anymore. Remember the IRFUs words - 麓麓we replaced
Warren with Eddy to bring Ireland to the next level.麓麓
Despite having the best set of players we麓ve ever had
we never got to a higher level than Gatland麓s last
year. Look at what he achieved with Wasps. He took
them from the bottom of the English premiership to 3
titles and a Heineken Cup. And the IRFU condemned him
because they didn麓t break the Edinburgh stranglehold
and because of Lens - when the team was still
developing. Ridiculous. The IRFU麓s problem is it does
not understand what it takes to win and hence it does
not recognise a winner when it happens upon one. When
we had the priveledge of having Kidney in the coaching
team we lost him - why? because Eddy doesn麓t tolerate
people who refuse to tow the line - he麓s a one man
show with pedestrian plans and he should leave now.
And this Leinster supported recognises that Kidney,
unlike O麓Sullivan is man of real pedigree. And Gatland
is undoubtedly one of the most talented coaches in the
world. We deserve the beatings we received and Georgia
were unlucky not to completely rub our noses in it.
Whatever else happens EOS must go or Irish Rugby will
suffer even more prolonged repercussions. We must not
reward losers and we need to stop embracing the roll
of the underdog. Only losers regularly play that roll.
Stephen (Dublin)
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Rugby in Ireland is played by a small part of our Pop.The IRFU have done nothing to bring this sport to a wider playing public. There was no heart, fire, flag or Anthem on top of that we were slow,beat in every area of the field and shameless. My heart is not in this as an Irishman and if the flag was good enough for Gibson and Macbride then it should be good enough for all.
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I can sum up the failure of the Ireland team; Amhr谩n na bhFiann. Why was the Irish national anthem not played at any of the matches? Other nations played theirs even though some of those teams were made up of players from other countries. No complaints. Ireland's Call is a rubbish ditty that actually sounds like a Scottish song with the word Ireland in it. The look of pride on the faces of the Argentina team when their anthem was played shows how much this means to players. I believe the Argentines could have relocated the Parc des Princes with a rolling maul after listening to Himno Nacional Argentino. The Ireland players looked like they had been stuck in a taxi with a very flatulent driver.
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A complete lack of imagination was what really bothered me. Absolutely no ingenuity while on the ball. Technically,and in particular reference to ball handling, the team looked amateur. They always looked nervous and uptight. It was one major panic from the outset. There was too much hipe surrounding the Irish ascendency, and that does not favour the mentality traditionally. I also thought that they looked overtrained and stale. Mentally they were the opposite. They were simply not up for it, and somone needs to be asked a few questions.
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It is not uncommon, over a spectrum of sports, for a fancied team to enter a tournament and inexplicably underperform. It happens every time in the football World Cup and in cricket tournaments. Perhaps the weight of expectation becomes too great for the top players (of whom the most is naturally expected) to give their best. The fear of failure becomes the dominant force. The give-away sign is that the whole Irish team failed to play with the freedom and confidence of recent years. Some blame for this of course can be laid at the door of the coaches - mental preparation can be just as critical as physical conditioning and tactics.
Poster No.6 does have a point: Ireland are actually below both France and Argentina in the IRB rankings. On the other hand this does not explain the abject showing against Georgia or Namibia.
By the way it is ridiculous to say tha Paul O'Connell's best days are behind him. He is still short of his 28th birthday and locks can play at the top level well into their thirties (e.g. Martin Johnson)
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Brian,
I don't believe that Ireland failed because of the lack of the national song... I think that they did not played any good game in the world cup. Only they obtained a bonus point in the game with Namibia.
I noticed that Argentina and France merely to enter in the quarter finals much more than Ireland, because they played better and not because they sang with pride their anthems.
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Stop blaming the national anthem and the flag!!!!
While I have no doubt a flag and an anthem can play a role, ultimately you should be proud to pull on the jersey.
If u need an anthem and a flag to pump you up on the biggest stage that rugby has to offer, then you are a sad excuse for a professional.
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Cheers Brian,
Totally disrespect and insult us proud Irish supporters in NI, ignore our presence. Sing an anthem that doesnt represent us, that'll fix everything!! That'll solve all our on pitch problems, strenghten the scrum, give our backs more flair...
And 'other teams played theirs even though some of their teams were made up from players from other countries' the implication in this comment is disgraceful. Can I remind you you were watching IRELAND, not The Republic of Ireland, not Northern Ireland, but rugby players representing the whole island of Ireland, and those players from NI were not extras for a Republic of Ireland team
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Irish rugby has produced no real "big wins" over the past few years. Beating a dire English team in Croke Park is nothing special. Neither is beating South Africa or Australia, in November internationals, at the end of the southern hemisphere season, whilst they blood new players for an impending World Cup. Ireland places countries like NZ, SA etc on pedestals. There is an inherent inferiority complex, that very few Irish sport stars overcome, Roy Keane being an exception. It is engrained in the Irish psyche unfortunately.
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How odd. No one has mentioned one blindingly obvious fact: the Pumas played a great and imaginative game with great passion.
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Irish rugby has produced no real "big wins" over the past few years. Beating a dire English team in Croke Park is nothing special. Neither is beating South Africa or Australia, in November internationals, at the end of the southern hemisphere season, whilst they blood new players for an impending World Cup. Ireland places countries like NZ, SA etc on pedestals. There is an inherent inferiority complex, that very few Irish sport stars overcome, Roy Keane being an exception. It is engrained in the Irish psyche unfortunately.
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Please, please stop blaming the kit, the anthem, the choice of hotel blah, blah, blah. It really is symptomatic of what is wrong with the Irish approach to the game at the moment. There's not enough focus on generating competition for places and being tactically astute enough to adapt the game-plan to out-do teams.
The buck stops with the coach - not Canterbury, not Phil Coulter, and certainly not Basil Faulty.
IRFU wake up, smell the coffee and do the right thing!
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EOS is a disgrace and should've been sacked after the collapse in the 2005 six nations. I have been calling him the spin master for years as this is exactly what he is. How in the hell can he call the performance against Georgia better than that against Namibia??? His game plans are shocking or non existant. Does anyone remember the defeat to France last year in Paris when we were 40 points down? The players ripped up his plan in the 2nd half and nearly won the game. He is and always has been a con artist. He has his set 15 to 20 players and is unable to think outside of this. Why was Carney there? Why was Neil Best there? What about Quinlan? Te IRFU are worse and I submit that the reason he won't be sacked is because they want him to be Lions coach in 2009 and bask in all the glamour that will bring to the union. Pathetic.
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Just a few points.
To AK and others we know we were beaten by a better team on Sunday and have no problem with that, it is just that we thought we had a better team ourselves. But where that team is, God (not BOD) only knows.
As for the Anthem, yes Ireland's Call is crap, but until we have a politically united island it will do, anyway these are professional players and i would expect them to play professionally even if Daniel O'Donnell was singing.
I have also heard complaints about the ball, well you know what they say about a bad workman and his tools. If a carpenter was fitting shelves in your house and said that the music in the background and the fact he was using a new hammer was the reason why the shelves fell down. Would you pay him or would you keep asking him to do the odd jobs in your house for the next four years?
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"The problems cannot all be laid at EOS's door. It could have been very different if France had beaten Argentina..."
As if that would've made a blind bit of difference... or if that would've helped change the dismal Irish performances in this year's 6N (match v. England & most of the Italy match aside), never mind the warmup tests. The warning signs were there.
In any case Eddie's shown no ability to think tactically, either during a game or in terms of the tournament.
"...these are professional players and i would expect them to play professionally even if Daniel O'Donnell was singing."
Perhaps we should try that. What've we got to lose? We're already the laughing stock of world rugby, and rightly so; Wales may have lost to Fiji but at least they looked useful against "minnow" sides, and even England eventually ditched Andy Robinson when it became clear he was massively out of his depth.
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Sorry, just can't sit back any longer and watch a few ridiculous statements go by unopposed amongst some others that appear more balanced and well-founded.
Firstly, I am a former senior player and have played provincial rugby in more recent times (although now retired).
To say that not playing a national anthem is ludicrous. Being from Ulster, I have never had a problem with the playing of the Irish national anthem any time I was fortunate enough to wear the green shirt at any level. However it is a 32 county sport and you have to accept that (although it is certainly not reflected in EOS' selection policy, not one single Ulster player in the last game!!!). But rugby players do not become supermen because of a few notes being strung together, nor does it improve their performance, they are either prepared or not.
Selection has been a problem during this campaign. It has to be accepted that players do hit plateaus which is why all top sides have and use a squad system, and if your top performers are not cutting it then they must be replaced. Also, the inclusion of 4 blindsides and only one 8 and one 7 (although Wallace is more a 6.5, great carrier but lacks in his game elsewhere) has to be questioned in this age of rugby where the breakdown is all important, and it bit us in every match, particularly when targetted by Argentina (10 turnovers!). Many fellow players are convinced that England's demise is their failure to find a suitable replacement for Neil Back, the king of scavengers.
I digress, but even England selected to suit games, particularly between the backrow, and although Simon Easterby is a great player, some of our games were tailor made for Neil Best (Georgia and Argentina). Also, to say that Paddy Wallace needs more time at 10 is naive, Paddy knows the 10 shirt inside out (what do you think happens at Ireland squad sessions?), all you are really saying is that you need to be convinced as a supporter of his ability!!!
The 'provincial' set-up mirrors the super 14, although the southern Hemisphere puts a lot more effort into finding and developing club talent than we do, which restricts our talent pool. On a recent trip to New Zealand I watched both Joe Rococoko and Ali Williams playing for the Ponsonby club, which would be almost unheard of here. But, the point has to be made that only 2 out of the 3 Heineken cup and 1 challenge cup provinces were represented in the final game and almost throughout the tournament.
As for a motivational role, it is well accepted that top teams are fairly autonomous and need little coaching when things are going well. A coach's role really kicks in when a team hits a lull and this is the time that a coach's role should be measured...I don't think any more needs to be said on this topic.
As for a Southern Hemisphere coach, I can only speak from personal experience and say that the two best coaches I have ever experienced were both from the Southern Hemisphere. I have found them to be deeply knowledgable and more importantly, know when to leave things alone. As for Michael Bradley, may be a great coach, but what is his success rate? Mark McCall (Ulster) has a Celtic league title (2006) to boast, but funnily enough I haven't seen his name mentioned!!
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Can we just not all agree, in a spirit of hands across the border all-island solidarity, that Ireland's Call is a pile of shite and come up with something better? I remember as a kid that Barry McGuigan's (the greatest 'British' fighter ever from Monaghan!) da would sing Danny Boy before his fights and that seemed to be universally popular. Couldn't we just use that and get someone else politically neutral to change the lyrics about a bit? Just a suggestion. Ireland's Call may not be the reason we played so crap but it's really helping either is it?
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Can we just not all agree, in a spirit of hands across the border all-island solidarity, that Ireland's Call is a pile of shite and come up with something better? I remember as a kid that Barry McGuigan's (the greatest 'British' fighter ever from Monaghan!) da would sing Danny Boy before his fights and that seemed to be universally popular. Couldn't we just use that and get someone else politically neutral to change the lyrics about a bit? Just a suggestion. Ireland's Call may not be the reason we played so crap but it's not really helping either is it?
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Former player, thank you for some sense.
I'd be very disapointed if anyone representing my Island needed to be motivated.
By the way, as an Irish speaker I can only asume that those of you osting praising Amhr谩n na bhFiann don't actually know what the words mean. It is dire.
Seems to me that Ireland's problems were mainly pychological. The reverence some of you are posting about the SH teams seems to relect a general inferiority complex in Irish sport (not just rugby and not just about the SH). Just how far did the players actually believe they could go. EOS team's have flopped everytime they have been asked to step up to the big stage - 2005 6N, 2007 6N and everyone forgets, they threw anyway the game against Oz in the 2004 RWC and didn't turn up later in that tournement against France. And now this. Surely it is clear that for all the good EOS has done, he is in capable of lifting a good team into agreat one, of making a competitive team into winners. It is a big mental leap.
Also of course, bizarrely creating a climate of complancy around the squad. Just how many times do players have to fail before they are dropped because England aside, they haven't covered themselves in glory all year. The performances against Wales and Scotland in the 6N then in the warm up games were simply repeated in the RWC. Really EOS must stand accused of not reacting to the bad performances. As has been said, coaches earn their spurs when things are going badly not when everything is fine. Surely Neil Best, MOK and a few others, proven international class players deserved their shot regardless of drastic surgery?
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Please, please, please... don't EVER mention Michael Bradley's name in connection with the Ireland job... EVER again.
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I think the real problem lays at the back up to the 1st xv and final squad of 20 players , you only had to look at irelands tour of argentina, when they should have said right argentina are in our group lets test them, oh no they took guys who didnt even make the squad , and some players were in the team who were untouchable denis hickie for 1 below par , stringer should have been ditched , as for roland he looked poor vs italy at ulster ,its the back up the u21 the the u18 i have seen these players and they are not comming through, ok if ireland lose 8 of the starting xv that started vs argentina ,who would replace them and how would ireland do in the 2008 6 nations , ireland have got to stop sending c teams on these tours , my god i remmber keith wood asking everything from his troops who gave the all blacks a scare not so long ago in new zealand, depth , ok be brave tell me the starting xv for the 2008 6 nations
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Just heard this morning that the IRFU are firmly behind their man for the next four years.
Is this for real !
The sultan of spin has had 6 years at the helm (yes 6!) and can take this team no further.
More heads will roll before the end of this world cup, ditch him now and go searching for what's available before Wales snap up the best.
As Hooky says "time for change....its only money".
If Gatty cannot be convinced to come back John Connelly or Pat Howard are the guys to go for. On the other hand if we are to 'buy Irish'... Is Keith Wood the man to fire irish passions again ?
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It is a hard game to play without the ball and O'Garas mystifying loss of form meant possession was given away cheaply. If Ireland had truely tried to develop a squad system there could have been a plan B. They could have had David Humphries (if he had not just been used as a tackling bag at training he might not have retired) or Shane Geraghty (if he had been brought into the set up before England snaffled him).
EOS seems to beileve that Ireland can only scrape 15 players together but it is impossible to go into a tournament in such a high intensity environment without a developed squad.
I do not know (or care to ) much about the off field rumours but it was pretty clear pitchside that there was zero communication between backs and forwards. O'Driscoll looked fuming.
I regret that all of the difficultys encountered appear to be those that a coach is there to resolve.For that reason EOS has to do the decent thing in my opinion.
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Conor and former player-thank you for talking some sense!Of course it does not help that the Irish media hyped up this team prior to the tournament but then that is what the media do. And this is no excuse for the performances in any case. The team did not perform and there were some very strange selection decisions. For this the coach has to take responsibility. On a slightly separate note, and I know this will sound like sacrilege, but maybe BOD is not the best choice for captain? I doubt the results would have been much different if someone else had been leading the team but maybe he is not the best choice. Yes, he is an inspirational player, but I don't feel he is an out and out leader of men. Just a thought. And one final thing-the anthem (or lack of) has b****r all to do with how the players performed. I watched a couple of the Irish games with professional players (some of whom have played at national level)and asked them about it. Their view was that, as good as it feels to belt it out before you kick off, if you need a song to get you going then you have no place in the squad let alone on the pitch.
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Agree with 53 on Brado ... he has done relatively well with limited resources at Connacht, however he couldn't pass as a scrum half when he played, so fundamentally he's not an option.
EOS should go all the same, even if alternatives are thin on the ground. He's had 2 cracks at world cups and hasn't delivered anything different to his predecessors. I know the players didn't step up, but when there's no rotation policy, competition for places or plan B, the coach has to take the blame. Particularly since there was no change in strategy from 4 years ago when we were very close to going out to Argentina. On this evidence also, he should not be considered for the Lions (though that's looking like less of an appealing role these days).
Before EOS is fired, I'd like to know what was the thinking behind bringing Paddy Wallace if he never had any intention of using him. Over the years of his tenure at out half, when ROG played well, Ireland played well. ROG was out of sorts from day 1. He's a confidence player. Historically a kick in the pants, like dropping him (or the threat of dropping him) for Humphries seemed to work and he'd come back stronger. Sticking him out there for the rest of the pool games only further eroded his confidence. I'm a fan of Wallace, he's a good attacking 10 (and a world cup winner in his day!) and would have offered a good alternative, at least for the Georgia game. I guess we'll never know now.
For the players ... none of them should be guaranteed a spot in the 6 nations and they have until then to prove otherwise. Some healthy competition for places should reinstate some of the hunger and pride in performance.
Until then, go Fiji and the Argies! A shake up in world order would be great to see now we're out.
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Just heard this morning that the IRFU are firmly behind their man for the next four years.
Is this for real !
The sultan of spin has had 6 years at the helm (yes 6!) and can take this team no further.
More heads will roll before the end of this world cup, ditch him now and go searching for what's available before Wales snap up the best.
As Hooky says "time for change....its only money".
If Gatty cannot be convinced to come back John Connelly or Pat Howard are the guys to go for. On the other hand if we are to 'buy Irish'... Is Keith Wood the man to fire irish passions again ?
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The consensus seems to be that the players were predominently awful. We know and they know they are capable of so much more. A significant contributor to the problem is the pandering to "big event" media leeches who cluster on the periphery sniffing for negatives, as well as the incessant self-publicising plus the growing, insidious influence of spin-doctors. Reactions and non-reactions are carefully tailored to the ever-present cameras and the stadium big-screen.
On a less important but relevant note...give us back the Green White and Orange flag and encourage the NI lads to come up with their own anthem and flag - if they want to. By all accounts the NI players are not as sensitive about the Republic's anthem as we like to think. We bend over far too much out of Political Correctness and end up looking stupid - without a proper flag for either country and singing a mediocre pop song with little conviction. Who decided this by the way and why no consultation before doing it? Makes all of Ireland a laughing-stock round the world. Can you just imagine if the French tricolour and La Marseillaise was
treated similarly !!
Alternatively lets evolve one decent anthem and one flag. Maybe face the reality and agree to the inclusion of a representation of the Union Jack in the orange section of the tricolour.
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Its difficult to say where Ireland go from here. ROG had three of his worst games for Ireland in succession, but the coach somehow couldn't/wouldn't face pulling him off. He was an absoltute embarassment against Argentina (notwithstanding momentary flashes of his old self). POC was similarly offbeam - demonstrated immediately by his failure to take a throw from Flannery on the line - it was obvious looking at him as that lineout progressed that he wasn't concentrating. Together they fluffed Ireland's early pressure and forewent the early try that might have had the Argies' flustered start paying Irish dividends.
My main thought, however, (and one that I haven't seen anywhere in the post mortem discussions is that Ireland have been off the boil for at least a year. All the talk of the good performance in the 6 Nations is hugely overblown - scraped wins against Scotland and Wales, joyous performance against England (but then England are as crap now as I can ever recall), lost a game they should have closed out against a travelling French team and threw away the Championship through stupidity having down 9/10s of the job against Italy. Last Autumn was the high point, but then again, Australia were a poor touring side and South Africa were fielding a weakened team.
Root and branch surgery - no, just chuck out the dead wood and work from scratch.
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Argentina beating France in the opening game really put pressure on Ireland in an already difficult group,That was the worst i have ever seen France play..even if argentina did play well, France were shocking
I think that some players really held back in the first 2 games trying not to get injured....
This is when players from the rest of the squad should have been used.
The result againt argentina is more about have chase the game from the start to score 4 tries
If it was a normal test match.. ie the opening game would they have been running it from deep and kicking for the corners instead of goal ever time.. i dont think so
And they did score 2 impressive tries..against the "GREAT" argentinians
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Maybe this will disaster qill make EOS a better coach by looking at his decision making. Let's not jump on the bandwagon and let's not be like England football fans. We are where we are. The most important thing we can do is get behind our provinces now until the 6N. This is whence our new ROGs BODs, POCs will come.
We can be optimistic. Some of our better players are still young. Our U21 grand slam winning team will be in their prime next world cup - I think the current golden generation may have peaked last year. And we have a new stadium to look forward to.
I also watched the match again last night (I was at the ground so always diffciult to asses). What was so so sad is seeing the flashes of brilliance of ROG making two great tries including possibly the best try of the tournament.
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To Patrick (50)
Singing, 'Danny Boy' great idea.
Trouble is, it was written by an Englishman.
Even worse, he was a member of their clergy.
It was a lament for his son who had died and he was recalling their holidays in Ireland.
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No player should have the automatic right to play for his country. The Irish players are stale and this even shows in the domestic game. Last year Munsters proformance in the H/cup was not up to standard Leinster as just as poor their in ability to score points is crap, they just won games never had the ability to put teams away. So when the same set of people who's wallets are bigger than their ambition to play for their country are picked why do we expect them to preform any better.We can talk about songs and flags all day but if you pick stale players no song or flag will make them play any better. The team and coaching staff should be judged on the the mactch agaist England in the 6 nations next March they have not lost to England since the last world cup but now England have a team who can play so lets see how our fat cat players stack up against them.
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My wife made the point that the last thing EOS looks like is a motivator. Maybe we should have a full coaching set up with Martin O'Neill to rouse them up before the start :>)
We're not as good as we think we are and the main issue to me is fitness levels. Murphy got turned over so much because he had no support.
Ireland should have come to an arrangement with Humphries that he could select the matches he could have come to. He would have been invaluable at the World Cup as Wallace showed his limitations against Scotland. ROG doesn't look right.
I had misgivings after the poor Heineken quarter finals from Munster and Leinster. For all the people saying that various Ulster players should be in the team, what about Ulster's performances in that competition? Neil Best, certainly but that's about it.
The nonsense about English based players not being selected cannot carry on and perhaps there's a need to do a bit of the Jack Charlton's again like the Scots do now.
Finally, as a Belfast man of nationalist origin, I can see that 'The Soldiers Song' is maybe not the most appropriate anthem these days but anything would be better than Ireland's Call.
Look on the bright side - maybe tickets for Ireland's matches will be easier to get!
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While agreeing that the tournament was a disappointment I still don't understand why EOS is getting all the blame...
Is it his fault that the provinces haven't developed any replacement props, or outhalfs???
People are complaining that he should have picked more Ulster players but unfortunately they have proved incapable at HC level so why they suddenly improve at the RWC??
Anyone who watched the Irish players last year both internationally and for club would see their performances have dropped dramatically.
With regards not bringing in new players etc the following have retired since EOS took over - Corrigan, Wallace, Clohessy, Wood, Byrne, Byrne, Galway, Longwell, Davidson, Miller, Foley, Costello, Dawson, Brennan, Easterby, Humphries, Maggs, Kelly, Horgan, Bell, Howe, Mullins and others usch as Staunton, Everitt etc aren't being picked...
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Like everyone else I am hugely disappointed but when it all boils down - no matter how good we thought this Irish team was they were beaten by two sides who were higher ranked than they were.
I'd like to make it clear that I'm an Ulster man and I don't care if there is an Ulster player in the team or the squad - I want a team picked on merit. I also couldn't care less what we sing before kick off but agree that Ireland's Call is bilge.
What really disappointed me about this world cup was - at no stage did Ireland excite me, I was never jumping in front of the TV. A few months ago I was jealous of friends who had tickets - now I just feel sorry for them having to admit to being an Irish man in France.
As for EOS, I'd only want him to go if there was a better man for the job.
Well done Argentina
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What do the home nations coaches have in common? They are all British/Irish and all equally useless. Only Clive Woodward of recent vintage can hold his head up as a world class coach (and even he blotted his copybook with his pathetic coaching of the British Lions, a case of someone believing his own publicity). Why are our home-grown coaches so poor, then? I would suggest a mixture of arrogance, softness, unwillingness to learn and a certain born-to-rule mindset. So get rid of the Sullivans and Ashtons et al. Mind you, I don't envy any foreign coach taking over the rubbish players they will will inherit, most of them mirroring their current coaches' uselessness. I challenge any contributor to this forum to name just one home nations player who would walk into a world rugby team (please don't parrot the name of Brian O'Driscoll, although he certainly rates himself).
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I agree with the vast majority of the opinions here. We were woeful. All respect to france, argentina etc but the statistics don't lie. 10 turnovers alone against Argentina. Could you imagine Munster or Leinster allowing that many? No!
My theory is that the rise of Irish rugby of late is purely down to the work of the provinces in the HC. Since the competition has begun we've been doing very well and this competition is what's given the Irish team a squad of players capable of playing at the highest level.
Now when we started the 6N this year at least both Munster and Leinster had 100% records - which they proceeded to blow afterwards. I had always put that down to exhaustion but now I see the real answer. EOS. He has cleary shown that the longer you give him a group of form players, the worse he can make them play. It really is time for him to go but the idiotic blazers are unlikely to do anything.
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The Leinster Munster rift appears to be a factor in this lack of communication and they share a national flag ...
The fact that D'arcy's name never cropped up in commentary shows how little effective balls the backs received. Surely Ireland needed to pick back rows to suit each match and to use impact subs in the scrum.
Lastly, Argentina had a coherent game plan for Ireland and they stuck to it even when Ireland threatened to come back into it. This is what professional sport is about: planning and execution in the face of pressure. Whatever may have caused it, the Irish failed to stick to a clear plan: in the world cup, making it up as you go along doesn't work. The manager is responsible for this, so he must go.
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Ireland had three good performances against South Africa, Australia and a hopeless English team (all at home) and all of a sudden they became semi final contenders. In my view they were always wildly over hyped. However with the team they had and the opposition they faced two triple crows is simply not good enough and OS needs to go. If i was an Irish fan i would find it so frustrating how they only ever seem play with any passion for Munster or against England.
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A world rugby team? For England maybe J Robinson and A Sheridan on the bench. Scotland maybe J White on the Bench. Wales- Martyn Williams probably bench. On form I can't see Ireland with anyone. I can't think of any Home Nation starters. Depressing isn't it............. Sometimes I think that some of the HN sides are over coached (as opposed to over trained). By all means you have to coach a side to have a game plan, shape and structure but these are all good players. Let them play what is in front of them a little more as opposed to telling them how they should react to everything the opposition does. England are a prime example.
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Eddie Should Go but he definitely won't go. Agree with No68 above the sad thing is that there was not a single positive during the whole campaign including the build up. Normally you will get one decent performance to enjoy but this has been a steady downward spiral with not a single blip on the curve.
O'Gara was rubbish again - his head was obviously not right yet Wallace never left the bench, we made too many errors throughout the 4 matches. The inability or unwillingness by EOS to develop a bigger squad with some quality on the bench told in the end. Ireland only started with 18 different players in the whole competiution every other team used their entire 30.
I think the fact are that this team cannot deal with pressure. Its all very easy beating an English team in dissaray (I wouldn't back Ireland today to beat England) and hammering Italy with nothing at stake. Triple Crowns as Trevor Brennan said are runners up medals and mean nothing.
Disappointing but not total demoralisation today as it has been building up to this for the entire competition. at least we have been put out of our misery.
PS Tony Ward is still backing EoS.
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My comments are directed at the inane ramblings of people who don鈥檛 know what they鈥檙e talking about, I.e. none of the above (for the most part)
Did I wake up in a world, where the World cup, isn鈥檛 the yardstick for which all teams to measure themselves. So let鈥檚 get down to brass taxes here, Triple crowns? Nonsense
The fans of this nation deserve more, and as a man who foolishly parted with 鈧400 for 6 nations tickets for the upcoming year, I feel irreparably cheated. My concern is whether finality has actually set in or not.
The 6N (at least this years) as clearly demonstrated in the tri, is not the be all and end all, but rather our bread and butter. The mock exams before the actual test. Should we see an Irish team running in tries against opponents in this years 6N, there will be one man calmly sitting in his seat amidst the inevitable chaos remembering the last time we were tested, failing miserably.
I implore all fans to have this somewhat pessimistic view in the back of their minds, everything should be geared towards the World Cup. Should anyone see some one celebrating wildly after a win against the Scots, Welsh or English, take him or her by the elbow and remind them of reality.
I genuinely pity our good players, and we do have them, that鈥檚 the point. Playing Magner鈥檚 league and Heineken cup, maybe playing well, and maybe even competing but knowing when push came to shove they folded quicker than the IRFU鈥檚 briefcase following their insightful meeting with Eddie, Prior to world rugby鈥檚 only true test.
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A world rugby team? For England maybe J Robinson and A Sheridan on the bench. Scotland maybe J White on the Bench. Wales- Martyn Williams probably bench. On form I can't see Ireland with anyone. I can't think of any Home Nation starters. Depressing isn't it............. Sometimes I think that some of the HN sides are over coached (as opposed to over trained). By all means you have to coach a side to have a game plan, shape and structure but these are all good players. Let them play what is in front of them a little more as opposed to telling them how they should react to everything the opposition does. England are a prime example.
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Ireland,Ireland together standing.... at the baggage carousel in Dublin airport.
What can one say. Dismal, weak, clueless performances. The warning signs were evident against Italy at Ravenhill. However the coach EOS did absolutely zero to make changes.
Stuck to the same tried and tested combinations that were just not working.
Right throughout the team there were few bright moments. Hickie- a joke, how he was recalled in place of Trimble or even Carney. D'Arcy what did he do in any of the games, the hype is greater than the talent.
Stringer- never rated him anyway.
Reddan- Where did he come from. Was not good enough apparently to make the initial squad, but was used in two crucial games.
Boss was not really given a chance.
(Could it be EOS and his anti-Ulster bias????)
O'Gara- pathethic performances( even if he had one leg EOS would still pick him).
Easterby-Leamy-Wallace- Very poor, have never understood why Easterby retained his place for so long.
The O's- Paul had a poor time, Donnacha, was his usual brainless self.
The Front row- very poor, pushed form pillar to post.
EOS did not even give the fringe players the opportunity to show what they had.
Why include players in a squad and then not use them?
The IRFU have shot themselves in the foot by putting themselves in a position where it will cost them to rid themselves of the Munster Godfather. He needs to be shown the door and the committee need to follow him.
Many of the team looked off the pace, lacked physicality, and their reaction times were a yard slower than the opponents.
One must congratulate Namibia, Georgia for their efforts, France and Argentina for their strength, ambition and execution.
This current bunch in the main are a spent force. They have had their day in the sun (maybe that was the problem).
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What Ireland needs to do if they are to continue to be a force in world rugby,is clear the decks completely and start again.This means getting rid of both Eddie O' Sullivan as coach and Brian O' Driscoll as captain.
O'Sullivan should go because is now looking backwards as is obvious from his statements on the reasons for Ireland's inept performance in France. What is required now is a forward looking coach ready to give a chance to new talent for the future good of the game in Ireland.
I also think that Brian O' Driscoll should relinquish the captaincy. I could tell from the body language of the players during the RWC that there is a lot of resentment to him. I suspect he speaks to the players like a schoolmistress: " now come on children we should be doing this
...."
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A new squad for 2008 six nations please. Start the building work now. We have 4 years to get it right. The 15 that started against Namibia had 750+ between them. The remaining 15, less O'Kelly and Murphy, had about 150. We need to get the new boys in and we need them now.
Doesn't look like we'll get a new coach but who would your choices be? Eddie Jones would be a great shout but he's already rejected the Wales role because of his Sarries job - whether that's because the Welsh job is more insecure, who knows? Warren Gatland would also be good but he wont come back after the way he was treated. Kidney as well wouldn't be welcomed back by the IRFU or some of the Leinster players, Bradley is too young. Mike Ruddock would be my choice - see what he did with Wales '05? Plus he has the respect of the Leinster guys having coached there and his wife is Irish! Although he's only just taken over at Worcester. Failing that, lets break the bank and get Sir Clive in!
I would like to see the following 15, injuries and form permitting, line up against Italy in exactly 4 months time:
Murphy, Horgan, O'Driscoll, Trimble, Kearney, O'Gara, Reddan
Horan, Best, R., Best, S. O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Best, N., Jennings, Leamy
Reps: Flannery, Young, Cullen, Ferris, Boss, Wallace, Fitzgerald.
Some new faces blended in with the old and the remainder of the squad being again a mix of experience and youth. A lot of this crop aren't around in 4 years so we better get used to it now.
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Sport is like life..a rollercoaster. Unfort for us we peaked at the wrong time. I think the team and EOS will learn from this as we do from life's up and downs.
And just for the record Daveboi, I was in France, and not once ashamed to be Irish.
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I'm a Kiwi, and i'm probably as perplexed as most Irish by their team's performance in the RWC.
The Irish always give us a good game. They come out fizzing (I don't know the stats but i'd put money on Ireland having scored first against us more times than we've scored first against them), and in the pre-professional era it was only the fitness that let them down....after 60mins they just couldn't maintain the pace. Since then we've had some very close shaves - Ireland could very easily have won against us last time they ran out down under. Before the tournament began I thought one of our biggest tests would be against Ireland in the quarters. How could a team that promised so much, has so much talent, plays the game so well, end up performing like this?
So if the issue isn't with the talent, or the heart, then what is it? Alot of what is said about EOC above may or may not be true, but what surprises me most is the lack of comment/criticism of....BOD.
When he first came on to the international scene it was obvious that he was going to become a world class centre. He had outrageous skills, great running lines, solid in the tackle, but most of all he seemed like a good bloke who genuinely enjoyed his rugby and playing for his country.
I've watched O'Driscoll slide as a person in the last few years. The skills remain, but a thoroughly nasty, vindictive side has appeared too. Lots of sniping on the pitch. First in when the fists fly, even if he has to run 30m to get there. It's the reason why not too many Kiwis felt sorry for him on the Lions tour, whatever your take on the rights & wrongs of the incident. Now? Well, he's to Ireland what Alfie Thomas is to Wales - disruptive, ego-centric, full of self importance. If there is any truth to the rumours that he's been influencing team selection and thereby triggering regional divisions within the Irish camp then the Irish fans should be fuming - he's a player, not a coach or a selector, and he should concentrate on what he does best.
I watched O'Driscoll after he'd scored his try against the Argentinians, screaming repeatedy what appeared to be "cnuts" at them, eyes bulging, veins popping. Classy. One for the kids watching at home. I couldn't help thinking, gee it's a shame Ireland are going home, but this guy - in probably his last RWC - i'm glad his legacy will be nothing.
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The better team won and good luck to them. Our team played to their potential and so did the Argentinians. They were just better than us. Let's just have the spiritual depth to be able to accept that, wish them well and enjoy their progress in the World Cup.
We will celebrate our own positives - especially the sight of BOD going right through their inside centre to score.
Certainly that doesn't mean we have to ignore our negatives. In particular, I agree with Liam (Poster #8) that Geordan Murphy's talents as a 大象传媒 columnist do not make up for his inability to retain possession, insecurity under the high ball, inadequacy in the tackle and general indolence at the best of times. But, him apart, our team gave it their best shot and were beaten by a very good side that is improving rapidly, will probably thrash the Scots and will give anybody in the world a good game.
Good luck to them.
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Like the other group matches - and the Scotland game 6 weeks ago, it was very frustrating to watch this game. So many turn over's - such little pace, almost no creativity and everything seemed to be so slow. Passing - running - kicking, being driven back so often.
Something has gone badly wrong and a root a branch review is needed from top to bottom.
But please dont react like Wales.
There is a team manager as well as coach, several other specialist coaches, and above all else a squad of 30, several of whom never got onto the pitch (they must feel as bad as the ones who played ) - its a collective responsibility.
Lets hope that the right people make the decisions.
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Further to some previous comments in particular Liamin 22, Ulster provided Ireland and EOS with a truely world class out-half for many years, whose talent and dedication were wasted by the current management system. Perhaps people need to look ay Leinster whose foresight in growing the Irish game seems to be based around playing an Agentine centre at outhalf.
The lack of squad development/rotation and the overblown player power is what has cost the team any world cup ambitions.
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All,
We need to start a PETITION to have EOS removed from the job one way or another. Obviously the IRFU don't want to sack him because of the cash they'll have to dole out in compensation and the embarrassment it will cause them - but seemingly he isn't going to quit without a very big push.
Does anyone have a view on the best way to start such a petition??? is there a newspaper willing to take the fight??
I won't accept my team and nation being made to look like complete idiots lying down. I want answers, I don't see them coming, so let's mobilise the troops ...
GET EDDIE OUT, GET EDDIE OUT, GET EDDIE OUT, GET EDDIE OUT
Anyone with me!?
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ive a theory maybe kinda...
The Namibians and the Georgians both have savage front rows and generally were very physical around the pitch. The Irish team seemed smaller and more lithe than the previous year. The power players like Horan, Flannery, Best even Paul OConnell didnt have the size to deal with bigger packs (ie everybody else in our group). Maybe it was over training and over conditioning since July, combine this forward problem with a misfiring ROG / Stringer and poor and it nullifies our Backs advantage. BOD and Darcy had to take the ball into contact too quickly therefore spending most of their game in Rucks, Horgan, Hickie and co just didnt get the quality ball to show what they could do.
I am stunned by the decline in the Irish team and like everybody have been sifting through the ashes. I still think they will bounce back for the the 6 nations but the lack of physical strength, lack of depth in the squad and lack of Plan B is ultimately EOSs problem.
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Re AK at post 32.
Its not the results which are so dissapointing (as you say the group of death had three teams close in rankings - someone had to lose out) but the Irish performance. If Ireland had lost narrowly to France and the Argies and yet had played with the skill and passion which they had showed in last year's autumn internationals I doubt this blog would have had half the postings it has had.
Can someone please engage in constructive debate about the north/south results in this RWC. England won the last world cup at this time of year and lots of southern teams have players playing in the North. My view is that the northern teams are just plain poor.
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SRA - Kiwi dude - #81 - BOD's reaction after scoring the try was disappointing, I'll grant you. But if you look through the games Ireland played, he made no handling errors that I recall, and was unique in the team for that. His line breaks repeatedly signalled false dawns because the support was slow or seemingly inebriated, and his aggression at the ruck was simply in a different league to the rest of his team mates.
That said, BOD has his own standards, and he didn't live up to them. He didn't do the captain's job, and lift everyone else with him. That is deserving of criticism, just as EOS should be criticised for his failure to lead.
There was a point at which I think Brian O'Driscoll realised that he was destined not to get the rewards his talent deserved, and I think he became more selfish after that. I think that point happened sometime between Perpingan's hugely surprising defeat of Leinster in the 2003 Heineken Cup semi-final, and the Lions Tour in 2005.
Question is, do you blame him for becoming selfish?
He probably hasn't had the criticism he would get if he had a better team around him. There are easier targets. You're being unkind to take satisfaction from his 'absence of a legacy' (which isn't true anyway). And if you're suggesting that he got what he deserved on the Lion's Tour, then that's simply appalling.
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The better team did win bur Ireland did not play to 50% of their potential, the issue is why. Yes expectations were over-hyped but the team failed so badly because the coaching was wrong, therefor it is the Coaches responsibility, have the pride to resign.
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Of all things that really concerns me about EOS as manager/coach is his inability to understand what happened over the past 4weeks.
The failure to perform did not emerge overnight and suspect the root cause is not one big thing but a number of small things, that built into a complete mess.
Here's my take;
# Failure to win grand slam or championship leaves doubt in minds of key players;
# Munster/Leinster/Ulster lamely slide out of Magners League/Heineken Cup further builds doubt
# Shadow team head off to Argentina and perform well but fail to win either
# First team take break
# Key players do their ad work, and maybe some begin to believe the hype
# Plenty of gym work and hopping in and out of cyro chambers but no matches
# Come August main team not ready
# Second team fail to fire up with poor results against Italy/Scotland
# First WC game gets played - team not match fit, shock, panic and doubt now in management/players esp ROG, POC, GD
# Eddie holds off on introducing extended squad
# Sticks with old crew to get them ready, they are still not match fit and belief ebbs - Georgia does it - self belief gone in team
# Eddie a process manager not a man manager - does not have capability to lift team
# Players rely on process but the belief is gone as they face Fra and Arg
# Eddie makes forced decisions but is not confident of the squad so sticks to basics - not in control.
# Our opponents have our moves well read and defenses know what we are at
# Our opponents play a more tactically astute game and we are where we are...
# Senior players 'self belief' shattered and emerging players unplayed, frustrated and doubting themselves also - with a manager and senior players scratching their heads on how this can be changed.
# Eddie has to go - this his not his first W/C, all the structures and programmes are there - when it comes to it he does not have what it takes to lead a team to Grand Slam or WC - need new thinking
# I hope I am so wrong - but all the evidence to date does not look good.
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All,
We need to start a PETITION to have EOS removed from the job one way or another. Obviously the IRFU don't want to sack him because of the cash they'll have to dole out in compensation and the embarrassment it will cause them - but seemingly he isn't going to quit without a very big push.
Does anyone have a view on the best way to start such a petition??? is there a newspaper willing to take the fight??
I won't accept my team and nation being made to look like complete idiots lying down. I want answers, I don't see them coming, so let's mobilise the troops ...
GET EDDIE OUT, GET EDDIE OUT, GET EDDIE OUT, GET EDDIE OUT
Anyone with me!?
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I'm with you adamski!
we need a petition and some serious action to let thise idiots in the IRFU know that the Loyal Irish rugby supporter has had enough of their incompetency in handling irish rugby.
Eos has benifited from a glut of talented players over the last few years, but he has failed to win anything beyond a couple of triple crowns. this team is now pretty stale and some players are now hitting a downward slope so i don't know how much longer EOS can keep flogging a dead horse. We need to give younger players soe experience now or we will end up like england has for the last few of years after their world cup sucess.
EOS out NOW!
and I'm boycotting all irish games until he's out!
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Daveboi I was in France and I was extremely proud to be Irish - all the French were so good to us and the fans were awesome. Actually at the stadium (maybe exuberence) but we were excited.
Also this is not the end for some of out better players - and to SRA the Kiwi I don't think this is BODs last world cup he will be 32 in 2011 which is not ancient. Gregan is 34 Larkham is 34 Montgomery is 34 Pichot is 34 Catt is 38 Robinson is 34, Kelleher is 31 and these guys are playing good/decent rugby at the moment. Also POC will be 32 which is not old for a Forward - England's 2003 winning pack had an average age of 30.
However, we def def def need to bring in younger players NOW. YOuth and experience for the next 4 years 6 Nations. We need to be picking guys this season who will be in their late 20s in 2011. Whilst I cite some older players playing well above - one look at NZ ages and I am sure most are around 26. We need guys like Kearney, Bowe, Ferris, Casey, Fitzgerald, Barry Murphy playing this season backed up by the older players.
Dave Belfast - I couldn't agree with you more re Leinster and having Contepomi and for that matter Munster and Warwick - it is a disgrace whilst we have Irish players at 20 playing in England. I wasn't having a go at Ulster per se - just that EOS is not to blame. I am fully aware that the lad's potential being a world cup winner has been wasted bot only by Ulster but by the IRFU.
Also Duffy and Murphy can play outhalf yet why not try experiment?
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Totally agree with the comments about BOD from #81 SRA. Having watched Celtic League rugby for a few years, BOD is one of the dirtiest, chopsiest players in the league. I am not going to deny his talents as a player powerful running, rock solid defence, intelligent lines - I remember the Lions Tour of 2001 when his performances were nothing short of mesmeric. It is just unfortunate that he has let his ego get the better of him. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if he had created a provincial divide in the team.
However there are others that should stand up and be counted. ROG was nothing short of woeful in this tournament - whether the rumours circulated by the French press affected him or not, his performances were shambolic. D'arcy I also feel has been disappointing since he was Player of the Tournament in the 6N a few years ago. And O'Connell really needs to do something about that red mist he seems too prone to get every so often.
But I also think huge questions much be asked of not just EOS but the Irish coaching staff in general. Where was the logic in their warm-up games and was it just me or did they run out of steam with 15 minutes to go in each match. They didn't look well conditioned, indeed at the end of the Georgia game they look out on their feet whereas the Georgians looked like they had another half in them.
As a Scot and a fellow Celt I am hugely disappointed to see Ireland fare so poorly, I really thought they would be a force in this tournament. But until they sort out what seems to be some serious internal issues, I can't see how they are going to bounce back....
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The comments about Ireland having the hardest group are just plain wrong. They actually had the easiest group - it was the only group that they had a realistic chance of winning, and therefore getting a straightforward route to the semis. They would not have won a group containing South Africa, Australia or New Zealand, and therefore would only have got as far as the quarters. For a team that had aspirations of winning the whole thing, Ireland had the best group possible.
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I麓m very suprised at Tony Ward. One of the best commentators on the game anywhere in the world saying that O麓Sullivan is the best to take us forward. As for Phillip Browne today - it was predictable - his fingerprints are all over the decision renew a contract tha should never have been given from the beginning. I麓m also impressed but also in disagreement with the magnanimous comments made by Warren Gatland - although he does point out that its time for Eddie to go. If this was New Zealand, would Eddie be kept on? Absolutely not. Are New Zealand the most successful side in the history of the game? Yes. If you look at their win record over the last century against allcomers, there麓s no argument. Why can麓t we wake up and behave like winners and not a bunch of nice-guy losers.
Ireland are nothing short of a disgrace. We deserved
to be beaten by more and I applaud the pumas who麓ve
been wonderful all through the tournament. In the
final analysis the IRFU fired Warren Gatland -
insulting him by letting him go weeks before the
natural end to his contract. He took a ragged team of
losers and an even more ragged organisation and won 4
out of 5 six nations games (completing this
achievement days before he was insulted as described).
Gatland is an ex-All Black who knows how to win and
how to listen to the experts he hires and empowers to
work with him. So we insulted him by letting him go
and bringing in an average coach with no pedigree and
a background in Irish and North American Rugby. 脡OS
works very hard and has a professional attitude but he
lacks the winning instinct, brain power and ability to
listen to those around him - apart from the fact he
has no charisma. EOS is a superb politician - this
talent is the reason the IRFU insulted Gatland and its
also the reason he managed to get a 4 yr renewal on
the eve of the world cup. Eddy, who for some reason
they thought was a talented coach, was waving his
green card under their noses. Now it will cost us a
fortune to get rid of him. We never had a team to
touch New Zealand but we had players that could
compete at the highest level and perhaps even good
enough to grace a final - certainly a semi. What a
waste. I麓ve been complaining about EOS right through
the pseudo-good times and bad times - we won nothing.
Absolutely nothing. A triple crown has no meaning
anymore. Remember the IRFUs words - 麓麓we replaced
Warren with Eddy to bring Ireland to the next level.麓麓
Despite having the best set of players we麓ve ever had
we never got to a higher level than Gatland麓s last
year. Look at what he achieved with Wasps. He took
them from the bottom of the English premiership to 3
titles and a Heineken Cup. And the IRFU condemned him
because they didn麓t break the Edinburgh stranglehold
and because of Lens - when the team was still
developing. Ridiculous. The IRFU麓s problem is it does
not understand what it takes to win and hence it does
not recognise a winner when it happens upon one. When
we had the priveledge of having Kidney in the coaching
team we lost him - why? because Eddy doesn麓t tolerate
people who refuse to tow the line - he麓s a one man
show with pedestrian plans and he should leave now.
And this Leinster supported recognises that Kidney,
unlike O麓Sullivan is man of real pedigree. And Gatland
is undoubtedly one of the most talented coaches in the
world. We deserve the beatings we received and Georgia
were unlucky not to completely rub our noses in it.
Whatever else happens EOS must go or Irish Rugby will
suffer even more prolonged repercussions. We must not
reward losers and we need to stop embracing the roll
of the underdog. Only losers regularly play that roll.
Stephen (Dublin)
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I think the real problem facing northen hemisphere teams is that their clubs continue to buy in our (southern) aging talent. Where are the young players coming through supposed to go? Of course in saying that the frogs will no doubt beat us and Jonny will kick England past Aussie, but still, I think the problem of buying talent is only beginning to manifest itself in this WC.
Also just a side note, but why is that none of the northern forwards have ball skills? Its all very well dominating the set piece, but our loosies and even tight forwards are able to run with the ball and break the line, and I think that is what will carry us at least to a semi.
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Ireland and to a lesser degree wales have always used england as a bench-mark to how good there team is.watch these irish muffins jumping and crying at croak park out of all context to the import of the game in a world cup year is just one example.the systimatic distruction on air by so called irish players/coachs and rugby experts on tv as the games were going on was a joy to this englishman and any team playing them.
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I remember watching Ireland NZ at Lansdowne Road back in 2001, when with 20 minuts to go, Ireland were winning. I watched the match with a New Zealander who was ready to attack the tv (or me) with an anger that I have never seen before or since. In the end Ireland lost (by 11 and the New Zealander clam'd a tad) a 大象传媒 reporter ran after Keith Wood for an interview. All around him people (pundits/supporters myslef included) were thinking how well Ireland played to get so close and that they gave it thier best and we can all be proud of them. The reporter asked Keith "How proud he was of the players and his own peformance". I thought he was going to hit her, square in the face. Keith Wood knew that he was 20 minutes from the greatest moment in his rugby career and now it was gone - he was fuming, they'd lost and might have well lost by 100 for all their hard work and galant effort mattered now.
The New Zealander explained to me, that in Rugby (at least in the southern hemisphere mindset) winning is everything, losing is nothing.
Warren Gatland was fired 10 days after this game (and after Irelands best 6 nations in years) , and I thought that Irish Rugby had adopted the win or nothing attitude and that they would move up into the top tier of world rugby and actually win something not made out of wood. How wrong I was.
To anyone that mentions the "Triple Crown's", before 2006 the "Triple Crown" trophy was a lump of coal that the unions refused to accept.
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This may have been already said but it is interesting that Geordan Murphy said he expected EOS to stay on as coach. This is a very different thing from saying he supports him to stay on as coach. Nit picking?
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Those who blame the lack of soldiers song and tricolour just show their contempt for ulster.Let them have it. let us go alone better a minnow with pride, than warming the bench for eos.As for lack of players how many countries only play native born.
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In fairness to Ireland, if Argentina show the same spirit against Scotland, then they'll win by more than 15 points. And I'm not saying that to rile anybody.
Perhaps, Ireland haven't gone backwards as France (in Paris) and Argentina would still have beaten them earlier this year. Like I said, we weren't as good as we thought we were.
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EOS must go (and I'll sign the petition) for lots of reasons, but most of all because somehow he killed the Irish spirit. Thats why, like Kiwi (81 above) said, we could always give the very best teams in the world a game. I cannot recall watching Ireland go through 4 games on the trot without showing spirit. Before professionalism this was our game plan, after professionalism somehow we kept it. Pulling on the green jersey was enough to make men out of boys.
How did EOS/BOD contrive to destroy it? Many years ago we played a really bad game in France - was always suspicious - was confirmed in a players memoirs that they had been on the sauce all night. And that was OK, because that was the nature of the team and the spirit.
But in this world cup Ireland were pitiful, no excuses. Maybe expectations were high, maybe Argentina, France, Georgia, Nambibia all played well - point is we didn't and thats what hurts - not the losing.
EOS must go because he proved incapable of rallying the bhoys - and so should BOD, at least as captain, for the same reason.
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This is getting into a "Them and Us" rant. We in Ireland are in a unique situation, we are divided politically, but are united in certain sports. So what should we play before a "unified" sport? this is what Ireland's Call was commissioned for. If we in the Republic insist on Amhr谩n na bhFiann/Soldier's Song, we will alienate those we want to unite with.
Did South Africans turn up their noses at their new flag and blame it any time they lost? I didn't see any of them with the old flag painted on their faces.
They could play "Put them under Pressure" or whatever Jack Charlton's song was, I don't care, I do care that the players and management do not produce what they told us we could expect.
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In fairness to Ireland, if Argentina show the same spirit against Scotland, then they'll win by more than 15 points. And I'm not saying that to rile anybody.
Perhaps, Ireland haven't gone backwards as France (in Paris) and Argentina would still have beaten them earlier this year. Like I said, we weren't as good as we thought we were.
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I will sign the petition to have eddie sacked. The entire board of the IRFU should be sacked also.
I have it on good authority that the rumours of major rifts within the Irish camp were true, there was somewhat of a divide between the provinces, but there was even much infighting among the provincial groups also. BOD proved to be a very poor captain to lead the team. A big difference between this world cup and the previous was the absence of Keith Woods. Perhaps BOD lost sight of what he was actually supposed to do as captain, and maybe he bought into the OTT hype the media uses to promote an event.
The treatment of Murphy was a disgrace and for this alone EOS should be sacked, he put his own personal issues ahead of selecting the best Irish team for the job, what an insult to all the Irish fans who paid to see the best team, and of course a major insult to a player of Murphys class. EOS's handling of Murphy was a terrible coaching failure. I am informed that Murphy in fact wanted to leave the Irish camp, but he acted like a pro, kept his dignity, which is more than can be said for EOS, how dare he leave Murphy out of the squad for the French game, no other coach in the world would have done that.
I hope Murphy has a great season with his club and I hope Eddie gets the sack. Eddie is a charmless man and a mediocre coach at best, and he cuts a very uninspiring figure.
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Basics have to be re-introduced and overall there has to be a new start as far as management is concerned. Peopel forget that England unravelled after the 2003 World Cup because they played in EXACTLY the same manner as they'd perfected in Australia. Routine, lineout, grind, power, Johnny. Simple formula, and effective (as well as inane to watch). Ireland have to think about a small overhaul themselves, beginning with the coach. New players have to be sought, more involvement from Ulster players is a promising and essential notion. Fitzgerald at Leinster and Murphy at Munster are others. Above all, however, is curtailing O'Sullivan. Some can only take things so far and its the same in every sport. What a manager or coach can achieve usually becomes patent early on. O'Sulivan came in on the back of Gatland anyway. I would look at Cheika or if Wales are eyeing him up, Eddie Jones, once he's finished with South Africa. Look to Ulster, youth and the Southern Hemisphere.
But whatever happens Ireland - even this World Cup side - would beat England, because it's 5 times in a row already, and it's no great achievement anyway.
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Basics have to be re-introduced and overall there has to be a new start as far as management is concerned. People forget that England unravelled after the 2003 World Cup because they played in EXACTLY the same manner as they'd perfected in Australia. Routine, lineout, grind, power, Johnny. Simple formula, and effective (as well as inane to watch). Ireland have to think about a small overhaul themselves, beginning with the coach. New players have to be sought, more involvement from Ulster players is a promising and essential notion. Fitzgerald at Leinster and Murphy at Munster are others. Above all, however, is curtailing O'Sullivan. Some can only take things so far and its the same in every sport. What a manager or head coach can achieve usually becomes patent early on. O'Sullivan came in on the back of Gatland anyway. I would look at Cheika or if Wales are eyeing him up, Eddie Jones, once he's finished with South Africa. Look to Ulster, youth and the Southern Hemisphere.
But whatever happens Ireland - even this World Cup side - would beat England, because it's 5 times in a row already, and it's no great achievement anyway.
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I see that Boss Browne of the IRFU has refused to remove his tie and let EOS have it around his neck-or at least so far.Its high time we developed a winning mentality instead of always being also rans. Browne went onto say that this was nothing but a blip on the horizon. This was the World cup!!! No excuses.
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Cannot agree more about Neil Best. Perhaps my being an Ulsterman is the root of my frustration at EOS apparent incompentence when it came to breakdown dynamism but I think the point is a very valid one. I mean coming into the tourny off the back of the six nations which we should have won, I was quite happy with EOS keepin the same team. However his witless determination to keep the same pack again and again is something which surely must go down alongside any of the worst sporting decisions in our nations history.
Although the whole team was responsible for the poor performances, I have to say i was extremely disappointed with the midfield, namely Darcy and O'Driscoll. In the tour to New Zealand, summer 2006 i think it was, they were a match for Umaga and Mauger at the time and were doing the work of your back row competently, yet now they are being beaten up by Georgia and Namibia. Have these guys forgotten what a Weights gym is? Darcy in particular was an expert in constantly wriggling over the gain line, but it seems that strength and trickery has, for the moment anyway, died
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How any Irish manager succeed when there is so much pressure to win even the six-nations. players on that teams then have extra pressure to win their regional tournaments,Heinneken Cup, etc. So much games to play with smaller pool of high-quality, high-salary players to carry the load.
Also, Irish team needs to adapt southern hemisphere style: attack even on defensive end.
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Has anybody considered if the team was drugged, poisoned or something like that. Their sudden inability to play basic rugby was bewildering. How could a world class team descend en masse to mediocrity. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that their food, water etc was tampered with. It would also add fuel to the fire regarding Simon Best's recent health scare. Anyone else thinking along these lines? A bit similiar to NZs collaspse in SA back in 95 except over a longer period.
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"How could a world class team descend en masse to mediocrity.
... A bit similiar to NZs collaspse in SA back in 95 except over a longer period."
Yes, over the course of nearly a year (we've been awful since last year's autumn tests). That should help narrow down the culprit(s)!
(i.e. Get real; the only thing doping them is O'Sullivan's astute coaching and astounding man-management.)
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Who are the alickadoos who are the IRFU? Who puts them there? OS's head is not enough. Irish rugby needs to be completely reformed. If IRFU will not do it the main sponsors should invite a rival group to run the professional game in Ireland.
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O'Sullivan and a load of players need to be removed. There is plenty of talent in Irish Rugby. O'Sullivan kept on saying there is no depth in Irish rugby, I beg to differ. O'Sullivan has treated players with disrespect. Geordan Murphy, Shaun Payne(disgrace that he never got capped) Anthony Horgan(dropped after the NZ game but could have dropped the other 14) John Kelly (O'Sullivan gave him the choice-retire from International rugby -when his wife was due any day or hold a tackle bag for Ireland), Bob Casey , Jermey Staunton, Neil Best, David Humphries, Keith Gleeson, Jamie Heslip, Brian Carney . Thats only naming 11 but I could mention another 10. P45 in the post for O'Sullivan Please.
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O'Sullivan and a load of players need to be removed. There is plenty of talent in Irish Rugby. O'Sullivan kept on saying there is no depth in Irish rugby, I beg to differ. O'Sullivan has treated players with disrespect. Geordan Murphy, Shaun Payne(disgrace that he never got capped) Anthony Horgan(dropped after the NZ game but could have dropped the other 14) John Kelly (O'Sullivan gave him the choice-retire from International rugby -when his wife was due any day or hold a tackle bag for Ireland), Bob Casey , Jermey Staunton, Neil Best, David Humphries, Keith Gleeson, Jamie Heslip, Brian Carney . Thats only naming 11 but I could mention another 10. P45 in the post for O'Sullivan Please.
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As others have said we did not descend from being a world class team...we were a good team with a few world class players.
We beat weak 6N's teams and SH development teams.
The rot was there, it wasn't plain to see...but under pressure the whole thing fell apart.
Time to review and rebuild.
If Gatland goes to Wales we may regret ever having let him go. On the other hand, he could become just another victim of Welsh player power and politics.
Fire Eddie and grab Warren before the Welsh do.
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Agree entirely with williejohnfan's comments(No 103). The over-riding weakness in all of Ireland's supine perfomances was the lack of pride or passion in wearing the green jersey. The spirit shown by the players was fast disappearing with each match played during the WC. Apart from all the issues discussed to date, could their mental attitude have been seriously undermined by the IRFU's ill-timed decision to extend Eddie's contract. In his perceptive article in the edition of the Irish Times published on 2 October, Gerry Thornley reports, from a reliable source, how Eddie's announcement to the players re 4 more years under his direction(?)was met by silence. It could be that this news was the ' final nail in the coffin'for many, if not all, of the players... what was the point of playing to the best of their ability when they knew they would have to continue to put up with a coach whose credibility had long gone?
To delay the sacking of EOS is to delay the process of rebuilding. Unfortunately, the blazers at the top have been left with 'egg on their faces' and dare not sack him in the short term. I suspect he will survive until end of 2008 Six Nations and then thr IRFU will review his performance. Next season, EOS will be under intense scrutiny, as never before,as to whether he has learnt from his WC mistakes. If Ireland continue to underachieve, the only way forward is to show him the door and engage a new coach from the SH.
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you guys know nowt about rugby
it's just a bunch of ulster supporters who want Ulster players on the team. neil best played well in the Autumn, right... but yer all saying against crap SH sides. He's not played well since then... sure he tries, and has heart, but is no more effective than the other selections.
then you have a bunch of munster supporters who want munster players on...
get over it
when there success they laud how the game is run, failure... slam it
feck all people play the game... look at france, they have their own 16 team league, a load of french players in it... we have 4 provinces, and a poor aib league... that's why we will never win a world cup... not coaches... not the current players.
get yer kids playing it, and 20 years from now we might have a chance
no replacement tighthead, no replacement fly half.. no replacement centres... if they thought the players were there, they would play them, yes they've been a little slow a blooding people, but that's cause the press would slam them if it caused a massive loss, and you need to build continuity for the year, for the press and fans it's success now, or nothing
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you guys know nowt about rugby
it's just a bunch of ulster supporters who want Ulster players on the team. neil best played well in the Autumn, right... but yer all saying against crap SH sides. He's not played well since then... sure he tries, and has heart, but is no more effective than the other selections.
then you have a bunch of munster supporters who want munster players on...
get over it
when there success they laud how the game is run, failure... slam it
feck all people play the game... look at france, they have their own 16 team league, a load of french players in it... we have 4 provinces, and a poor aib league... that's why we will never win a world cup... not coaches... not the current players.
get yer kids playing it, and 20 years from now we might have a chance
no replacement tighthead, no replacement fly half.. no replacement centres... if they thought the players were there, they would play them, yes they've been a little slow a blooding people, but that's cause the press would slam them if it caused a massive loss, and you need to build continuity for the year, for the press and fans it's success now, or nothing
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4 years to the next world cup, that means 4 six nations, a lions tour (ho nonsensew many irish on that) and a few tours down under. England took inexperienced players there befoe the last world cup. OK they were humiliated and laughed, 2 years later theywent down won the world cup warm ups and eventually the big prise. ireland need to blood new players from now reinstate A internationals and have all players playing in higher level, Send 2 tours teams a summer if they have to one SA and one to the Antipodes. get are young players fronting up to the best and less of this I,m Irish your better than me, It seems we can only raise are game against the English and no one else, I don,t care what it is but something has to be done
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Who are these guys running Irish rugby? It's not just the World Cup - they have sown the seeds of destruction for Irish rugby going forward - some Scottish players already already have Northern Irish fathers and players like Geraghty are signing up for England: - for Ireland read Munster/Leinster and a road to nowhere.............
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112 - NO!
But they certainly looked as if they were - NZ incident was a one match thing - the Ireland team have been that way for months ........
as for 111 complete inability to think rationally and react under pressure was certainly obvious but as to the exact reasons I am not sure we have enough information.
But smugness, bad decisions, bad selction policies, wrong captain (albeit I thought he did all he could in terms of playing performance), chips on shoulders,
In football I think they call it losing the dressing room.
There have certainly been some wrong preparation issues - the Irish team was one of the weakest in the tournament I would have thought - but bad man management leading to a complete loss of cohesion was the most damaging factor.
It's really obvious when you look at the Argentian, Scots and even English team.
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Dear all,
from small acorns grow ....
I have written the following email and forwarded it on to a small but like-minded group of potentially willing activists in the hope that they will forward it onwards to create an exponential wave of anti-eddieism such that neither he nor the IRFU will be able to resist the inevitable. I hope it arrives in all your inboxes soon and that you join in .... GET EDDIE OUT!!!!!
Fellow Irish Rugby Fans,
It goes without saying that we are all extremely disappointed with the team鈥檚 performance at the Rugby World Cup 鈥07. Taking nothing away from the teams in our group who played extremely well, perhaps most notably the amazingly spirited Georgia and the powerful and exciting Argentines, our team鈥檚 showing left more than a little to be desired and fell way below expectation. Many people cite different reasons for the poor performances ranging from inter-provincial feuds to 鈥済eographical selection鈥 policies, from players believing their own hype to a lack of tactical know-how from the coach, from inappropriate pre-RWC warm-up game planning to too much time wasted experimenting with fringe players who never even made the bench at the RWC, from simple personality clashes right through to sensationalist stories about certain individuals. Others believe just as strongly that actually we haven鈥檛 progressed at the same rate as other countries such as Argentina, and that we are simply not as good as we think we are.
Whatever the reasons, we all know what we saw on the field 鈥 a lack of passion, a lack of pride, a lack of invention, a lack of willingness for the coach to try something different when all was going wrong, a lack of basic skills and a lack of results. Perhaps we have been spoilt in recent years, but we don鈥檛 expect these things to be lacking from an Ireland rugby team.
To top this all off our national union chose, in their wisdom, to extend the contract of our coach a matter of days prior to the only REAL benchmark test of his tenure. The benefit of hindsight is one thing, but this decision was always an example of extremely poor judgement. In the real world would the head of a corporate be awarded a contract extension days prior to the financial results being published? Would a salesman be given commission before making a sale? The result of this is that the IRFU is too embarrassed to sack Eddie, and Eddie won鈥檛 quit as he knows the IRFU will have to pay him off handsomely.
There must be a major shake-up in the IRFU, but the first thing to happen is that Eddie O鈥橲ullivan must be removed from his post.
Please sign this petition to 鈥淕ET EDDIE OUT!!鈥
We the undersigned demand that Eddie O鈥橲ullivan be replaced:
1. Me
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I must say I cannot believe people are giving O'Sulivan so much credit here. He has an average 6 Nations this year, never won a Grand Slam or 6 Nations Tournament, beaten an Australia with Giteau at Scrum Half, South Africa with Habana at Centre (Teams trying new combinations and not really caring about the result)
Least we forget he was involved in 3 World Cups so far, twice as unfettered Head Coach, yet he still says he made mistakes and we will learn from the. Jenkins only got 16 months in Wales, Hart in New Zealand only got 1 shot at RWC success. O'Sullivan's mantra of "Judge me on the RWC" seems to have faded recently.
Worst of all is people agruing that we should let the dust settle on this. Typical Irish laid back attitude. The IRFU will insist they want to carry out a full review.That will be finished in 4 months or so, by then all the anger will have died down, it will be near a 6Nations and O'Sullivan will be in the clear. S
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We need a fresh start, thanks for the wins against England and Australia, but time for Eddie to move on.
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Totally agree with those who believe EOS must go.
Allot of our players will be around for the next WC but if EOS is in charge it'll all be a waste of time.
The IRFU themselves said anything less than a WC semi would be considered failure but unfortunately after gambling on giving EOS a new 4 year contract pre-World Cup they now feel their hands are tied.
As pointed out elsewhere he has after 6 years produced a situation where we have no depth to our squad & play a rigid unimaginative predictable game which is not natural to him as a coach.
Despite our small playing numbers he openly acknowledges that if you play outside Ireland you're chances of playing are greatly reduced therefore further restricting our options.
Allot has been said about the success this team has brought us under EOS but I鈥檓 afraid everyone is deluding themselves. Let me hit you with a few facts:
When we play the All Blacks we lose.
When we play France we lose.
When we play down under we lose.
Our only 鈥榮uccesses鈥 have come against teams who are A) out of season & weakened (South Africa, Australia) B) Badly in decline (England) C) On our or just behind our level (Wales, Scotland, Italy, Argentina) or D) Teams 鈥榠nferior鈥 to us (USA, Canada, Romania Etc.)
I would also add to this the fact that we never have any trouble raising our game when we play the Old Enemy England.
While I'm all for enjoying the few successes we get against the top teams once in a while, I do feel we have a tendency to delude ourselves into believing we are something we are not.
I have always felt that the worst thing that has happened to Irish rugby in the last 6 years was that the French eased up in the 2nd half of that match in Paris 2 years ago. Had they not and we got pasted by 60 or 70 points EOS鈥檚 position may have become untenable and we might all be sitting here now writing about our prospects against the Scots in the quarter final.
Instead it might take another wasted 6 nations or 2 before the blazers at the IRFU realize that EOS isn鈥檛 going to lead us to the semis of the next WC either.
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Although O'Gara had an absolute nightmare of a World Cup, was there really ever an alternative to him at fly half? Even though his performances were awful, who was going to play at 10 instead? Paddy Wallace is a decent player, but he doesn't even play at fly half for Ulster.
Speaking of Ulster, the genius that is David Humphreys decided to hang up his international boots over 18 months ago because even back then it seemed that O'Sullivan refused to drop ROG. Humps' talent was never appreciated in the international arena and he understandably became fed up with sitting on the bench. So that elevated Wallace to back-up number 10.
Others have called for Jeremy Staunton and Ian Humphreys. Don't make me laugh. I watched Staunton during the Churchill Cup and he was nothing short of apalling. Ian Humphreys is being kept out of the Leicester team by the round, balding, immobile Andy Goode. Until he is playing regular club rugby he surely can't be considered.
Which leaves us with one other choice. Now I don't know a great deal about him and you guys can keep me right on this, but what about Jeremy Manning? Apparently he qualifies to play for Ireland very soon. The hype surrounding him is quite amazing. I saw him at Ravenhill when he came on for Munster against Ulster and he changed the game. Can anybody shed any more light on whether the hype is to be believed?
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Glenn - I am far from convinced about Manning esp his kicking from the ground. Whilst he is young he is playing third fiddle at Munster with Warwick in at 2 - which is frankly a disgrace. The question we need to ask is why is he not good enough for Super 14 rugby? We need no 10s who would get into Super 10 team. Whatever anyone says ROG and Humph would have walkes into many Super 14 Teams at their prime.
Ian Keatley at Leinster academy was Ireland's fly half for the u20 grand slam and might be the new one to watch. But he has to play regular football. Also Ulster Niall O'Connor looks to have a decent boot on him.
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We all got a bit carried away with our performances last autumn and the 3 triple crowns over the last few years. I'm not a rugby nut, come from a gaelic football background but what I did see from Irelands performances or lack of was that Ronan O'Gara was simply not on his game, in all of the games over the last few years that Ireland have earned there reputations on he was the player who made Ireland tick. His kicking game when on form was second only to wilkinson and possibly carter. We had no backup to him, Paddy Wallace could have been given more of a run out but like many of his colleagues on the 30 strong squad he is probably wondering why he even went to France. O'Gara could hardly find touch and his only noteable contributions where the drop goal against france and his pass to O'driscoll for the try against argentina, don't need to lay all at his door but we have no stenght in dept here, if we had to get one performance for 80mins from him it would have put confidence into the side as his kicking game takes pressure off everyone else, instead we ended up in a do or die game where we needed 4 try's against a very streetwise team. I also cannot understand the managers role in Irelands performances, why he only used 19 players, strange rugby set up we have, none of the players can speak out because nearly 99% of them are contracted to the IRFU, if they say anything its bye bye international career but to use the line from Ella Wheeler, "to sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards out of men"
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