Slam slips away
- 12 Feb 07, 08:33 AM
Dublin - Ah well, the old can be tucked away for another year.
That old warrior Jack Kyle was sincerely hoping that the days of him being wheeled out to talk about Ireland鈥檚 chances of emanating his '48ers would end this season.
I鈥檓 afraid that title is now going to be as elusive as Kyle was in his Pimpernel days in the late 1940s when the French tried to seek him here and seek him there, but failed to stop him dancing over the try line.
Jack, like the rest of Ireland, must have felt that a stake was being hammered into the heart when Vincent Clerc shrugged off the Irish defenders to dive over in the dying embers of the game.
But c'est la vie Jack, I鈥檓 afraid the media will be trekking down to your lovely abode at the foot of the Mourne Mountains for a while yet.
But let鈥檚 look on the bright side. There is always in two week's time. And Ireland are left with not having to worry about keeping unbeaten records at Croke Park. But that will not salve Eddie O鈥橲ullivan鈥檚 men. They wanted that Slam so badly.
It was a momentous occasion but not exactly matched by a game that in the end twisted and turned like a circus acrobat. The 82,000 crowd deserved more at the end following a build-up that was unparalleled in Irish sport.
Ireland started indifferently and finished even worse. The French may not have had that libert茅, egalit茅 and fraternit茅 that they had become famous for, but they sure had the lucky bounce of the balls to come back at Ireland in the end with a probable Grand Slam as their prize.
My day had begun so well, too. I was invited to join the breakfasting IRFU president Peter Boyle and IRB head honcho Syd Millar at the Berkeley Court Hotel. Like myself, they had been cheerfully hopeful, but also harbouring a slight worry. Unfortunately, their fears were realised.
At least Mr Millar had something to take away from the weekend. He was inducted into the D鈥橝rtagnon Society for his unstinting work in the world of rugby.
The soiree was at Merrion College, just around the corner from the old Lansdowne Road. He answered his hosts with a four-minute speech in perfect French. I鈥檓 told he had been taking regular lessons in the language. Now the Ballymena-born Millar has promised to take English lessons next!
Talking about Lansdowne Road, I drove by it on the way to Croker. It was hit by a shaft of sunlight, but it had all the outward appearances of a cemetery. The only noise one could hear was from the mini-rugby brigade on the back pitches. In a way it was sad.
But one gets over such a downer when a thing of beauty arises in front of you the way Croke Park does when you cross the Liffey.
Situated in a heavily-built up area, the stadium rises like some giant space ship ready for take-off.
You could feel the anticipation, the buzz and the hopes of a nation in turning down Jones鈥檚 Road. Walking out into the stadium from the top of the stairs is something else. The noise is incredible as it reverberates around the steep three-sided stand, while at Lansdowne Road it was blown away with the wind to the tide.
It was poignant, too, to hear Ireland鈥檚 call - the music written by Phil Coulter back in 1995. It was a song that never felt at home in the old Lansdowne Road house. The words were penned to encompass the four provinces, but they were sung with such gusto at Croke Park that it received immediate elevation.
However, it still failed to raise Ireland鈥檚 game significantly at the start. They started off the way they played against Wales last week. But once again, they dogged it out, and to be only 13-11 in arrears at the break, I thought, was a bonus.
O鈥橤ara had another special game, scoring all his side鈥檚 points and finishing off a movement of swift hands and support play.
When the Munsterman banged over two more penalties everyone thought that that was that. The dream was still on.
But just as Mohammed Ali stopped Al "Blue" Lewis on his visit to Croke Park back in Seventies, Clerc landed the real sucker punch on Ireland deep into injury time.
Just like France鈥檚 first try, the missed tackles will be rued for many years to come. The only medicine is to win the next game. I wonder who that will be?
Wales 27-18 England
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Very disappointing for Ireland but you have to say that France created more and played the better Rugby.
Just pleased to see a game of tempo,pace and excitement after the drudgery of Saturday. Quick throw ins , tap penalties and plenty of passing made for an entertaining game .
I think with regular crowds of 80,000+ at matches these days there has to be at least some intent to entertain .
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Well done France. You've won it again, as I doubt anyone will stop you on the rest the GS journey.
I felt sick when I saw Clerc go over. I just couldn't believe it. I would have rathered a GS than a seni-final in the WC. But now that's all I can hope for.
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I dont know the english equivalent but a stinking "mauvaise foi" is rampant all over the media. Credit to the Irish supporters who at least mention that france was actually on the pitch and playing well...
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It was tragic enough to have to witness the last minute defensive mistake from Ireland on Sunday, without having to listen to Jim Stokes patronizing, mean spirited drivel. We are more interested in analyzing the rugby, than having to listen to his thinly veiled attempts at sarcasm - it remains unclear to me, what purpose his writing serves; it is rather like the unpleasant sight of someone that laughs too much at the their own joke.
More rugby analysis please, and less self styled " witticisms" that are unbecoming of someone writing for the 大象传媒.
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Not a bad article mate. I feel that Ireland were their own worst enemies yesterday, as there were 3 evidently kickable penalties available for them but the 9 was allowed to dictate, or if not, POC should have recognised that the clock was against the French, and that Ireland had already showed try scoring brilliance in that amazing move between Wallace and ROG, set up by Hickie and Shaggy. 9 more points in the crucial stage of the match would've ensured that Clerc's final minute of glory would have been quickly forgotten after the whistle instead of the final blow to end the Grand Slam dream. The beauty of this Irish team is that no-one is going anywhere. They proved for the majority of that match why they are the best team in the tournament. I, for one will be cheering England when they take the on the smug frogs, and i hope that England take revenge for the embarrassment last year in the St Denis ground. That said, England will be facing a full strength and very hungry Ireland, a team gelled by disappointment from the previous game, and by achievement, clean sweep in the Autumn, and pushing the All Blacks close in the Summer. I feel that this could be a record win for Ireland over the English, by then Ireland will be back in contention with the 2 whipping teams to hurdle in the home straight. A try fest in Rome could still put our name on the trophy. T'would be a fitting end to a championship of cheers and Tears. See you at croker on the 24th.
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It wasn the "bounce of a ball" or the stadium, it was players out of position and the decision to keep the ball in hand rather than kick the penalties late in the second half that cost us a very important victory. The six nations and Grand Slam belongs to France now.
Second place and another triple crown is all we can fight for now.
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you'll never ever win another grand slam until you fundamentally change the way you play my celtic friend! your game is based upon a boring 10 man style, which sees ronan 'Obora' kicking for the corners and hoping you either win the subsequent set piece or the opposition give away a penalty for you to slot between the posts! You really do bore teams into submission - and generally score by preying on the opposition's mistakes! You've got quality backs in odriscoll and dennis hickie but seem to think that the dreary 'munster way' will succeed at international level. It hasnt - well not to the extent of winning your first grand slam since hitler had just gone cold! If you played with a bit more adventure and flair you could have won at least two grand slams in the last 6 years - you only have yourselves to blame for playing such deadly boring rugby!
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I think you'll find Ireland started RUBBISHLY. For the first 40 minutes and the last 10.
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I think the two decisive events that tranpired to wreck an otherwise great day for Irish Rugby.
1. We lacked the tactical maturity to take the penalties that came our way towards the end of the game and continued to go forward and then loose the advantage(too quickly if you ask me). This would not have happened if BOD or Stringer had played.
2. The ref blowing up oh so quickly when GM clearly would have scored a try.
A great effort though and unfortunately the only real poor performance was by another southern hemisphere ref. I guess we had the luck last week so begrudgingly it could be said it has evened itself out this week.
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now we know why your player ratings were way off the mark, too much of a liquid breakfast i imagine. what was sad about lansdowne road? it was an absolute joke and embarrassment. people expect some comfort for the money they pay. for a gaa man it was quite emotional sitting at home watching the build-up to the game. it was with huge pride that ireland played in an arena i just love to go to. i hope all games are played there.
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Mr. Stokes would do well to have his place names correct. Marian College, beside Lansdowne Road, named for the Marist Brothers who founded it.
As for the match, France certainly looked the better team on the day, though the match stats seem to suggest little difference in the teams. They deserve the win, and the GS, but there is nothing more cruel than the way in which it was achieved. I haven't yet mananged to lose the sick feeling in my tummy.
And Mr. Walsh - is it possible to have his licence revoked? Apolgising to players for blowing the whistle instead of playing advantage is of little consolation when the alternative is 7 points!!!
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It is really not that long ago that Irish rugby was in a mess.At the bottom of the barrel the 'suits'finally got their act together and contracted our players and they appointed Eddie O'Sullivan as head coach.O'Sullivan brought structure,analysis and a thorough approach to the profesional game as it was emerging in rugby at that time.He also had a group of players available to him that made it possible to look beyond the Irish notion that to battle bravely for 60 minutes and lose with honour was enough.Gradually the whole perception of Irish rugby began to change from possible 'fantasies'into possible realities.A squad of players was emerging, results were improving regardless of how 'honourabale their achievement. Ireland were winning more often than losing.Could Ireland now think realisticaly about a major prize?Although winning a world cup in Australia may still have been on the edge of fantasy the performance was bitterly disapointing,with the sugestion that maybe this was just a temporary phase that would fade.However the Heineken cup exploits of Munster culminating in their ultimate success and an Irish 'triple crown'followed by performances against the All Blacks in their own back yard continued the upward trend.Having finished 2006 with solid wins against the Springbok and Australia suddenly real expection returned and the grand slam of six nations was considered more likely than not.Could Ireland finally close it out? With France beaten somewhat against the odds and with 2 minutes left that final piece of concentration deserted them and the result that was almost inevitable slipped away as sand through the fingers.Eddie O'Sullivan has done almost everything possible for Irish rugby with maybe his somewhat conservative approach as his only fault.It is now up to this squad of players to dig very deep and avenge this French defeat in their own country in the group stages of the world cup and go to take the ultimate prize by beating the All Blacks.
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Am I alone in thinking that the decision to take the penalty kick at goal with less than 4 mins. time remaining was the wrong decision?
Ireland were leading by one point and
the only way that France could win was by getting the ball in an attacking position in the Irish 22.
THE BEST WAY OF ENSURING AN IRISH WIN WAS TO RUN DOWN THE CLOCK. HAD THE PENALTY BEEN KICKED TO THE CORNER
FOR AN IRISH THROW IN, THE BALL COULD HAVE BEEN CAUGHT. THE RESULTING MAUL,WITH THE CROWD BEHIND
THEM,MIGHT WELL HAVE RESULTED IN A PUSHOVER TRY BUT WE COULD CERTAINLY
HAVE RETAINED THE BALL FOR 3 MINUTES
AND THUS ENSURED VICTORY.
AFTER ALL,THE PENALTY CAME FROM FRANCE PULLING DOWN AN IRISH MAUL WHICH HAD TRAVELLED C.35 METRES,
WITH THE FRENCH FORWARDS IN COMPLETE DISARRAY. BY KICKING FOR GOAL WE WERE GIVING FRANCE A CHANCE. THIS WAS NOT A GOOD DECISION.THE EXTRA 3 POINTS DID NOT ENSURE A WIN.
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Great result from France. Kept their heads and punished Ireland with a cracking finish.
A good slap in the face for Ireland, I was getting sick and tired of their self proclaimed Grand Slam. One game at a time, second game in they blew it.
Just because Munster won the HC doesn't make Ireland the second coming.
Chokers.
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Well played France they got on with the job and beleived they could still win and were awarded with a fantasic try to finsh a brillant game. If you wanted Croke parks first rugby match to be a one to remeber then you got it. Nice effort both sides forget the tri-nations this is what the six nations is about
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Having displayed the nous that makes a team to be only 2 points down at the interval, they were ultimately undone by a lack of nous in the second half, sue to missing two players of vast experience.
Had Stringer and / or BOD played, we would have played more percentages. Rather than strive to score tries when the ref played advantage (when is the advantage deemed over?), Stringer would surely have calmed the exceitement and told ROG to slot the 3 points. The crowd added to the heady atmosphere that saw Ireland take tap penalties and Horan go close. Such noise meant errors in judgement and France capitalised at the death.
A fabulous game in the most extraordinary atmosphere turned on the bounce of the ball and the lottery of refereeing decisions; sadly the wrong way.....
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Having displayed the nous that makes a team to be only 2 points down at the interval, they were ultimately undone by a lack of nous in the second half, sue to missing two players of vast experience.
Had Stringer and / or BOD played, we would have played more percentages. Rather than strive to score tries when the ref played advantage (when is the advantage deemed over?), Stringer would surely have calmed the exceitement and told ROG to slot the 3 points. The crowd added to the heady atmosphere that saw Ireland take tap penalties and Horan go close. Such noise meant errors in judgement and France capitalised at the death.
A fabulous game in the most extraordinary atmosphere turned on the bounce of the ball and the lottery of refereeing decisions; sadly the wrong way.....
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Allez les bleus !
What a match, and a great performance by both teams. France completely dominated the first half, but Ireland managed to get back in there. Poor decision making by Ireland for their penalties, and France resorted to kicking the ball away too much in the 2nd half.
France look to be building well towards la Coupe du monde.
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I agree with you 100% Brian but isn't hindsight a wonderful thing. I think the wrong decisions were made on a few occasions but I think a lesson has been learnt in a very harsh manner. Maybe it is down to in-experience of POC or lack of communication with the match official but in the heat of the moment it seemed like the right decision as it did when the ball sailed between the posts.
Gutted!! I think all Irish supporters feel that way today. But I will take some positives out of it. Our front row is holding its own even if our English friends beg to differ (wishful thinking on their part) and in the forwards we achieved parity overall yesterday. Also, Boss has gained more experience at this level but I expect Stringer to regain his place. I expect Flannery to start and also Neil Best.
The back 3 is a hard call, the two wingers never attacked ROG clearances, a schoolboy error. Missed tackles also. We gave the french way too much time in that area. Murphy for me just hasn't done it in an Irish shirt but I think he may start ahead of Dempsey that is a hard one to call, Horgan will go back on the wing and I expect Hickie to just about stay in with Trimble pushing him hard.
I can't see the English beating Ireland purely on the fact that they have nothing in midfield and their game is too one dimensional.
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Still feeling sick with disappointment this monday afternoon at work.
Just feel we should have taken every penalty shot that came our way as soon as we got the advantage.. the way wilkinson does.
Paul o'C.. great man but should he be captain? Does the red mist descend in the thick of battle..like that mad munster decision to take the scrum against Leicester
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The word 'luck' seems to have been mentioned frequently by Irish supporters. Nonsense!
Ireland failed to win the restart and they squandered two kickable penalty opportunities by playing on.
The French deserved to be further infront at half time and could count themselves unlucky with the drop-goal which rebounded off the post!
Hopefully now we've seen the first international at the magnificent Croker Park, The 大象传媒 will now concentrate on the rugby instead of giving history lessons.
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Why oh why do the Irish pile the pressure on themselves every year, thinking it's there year for the grand slam, they haven't beaten France anywhere for 4 years, which hardly makes them the best team in Europe.
As far as I can work out the current Irish golden team has not even won a championship, let alone a grand slam, triple crowns are worth nothing if you don't win the championship.
The season now becomes an anti-climax for all of the Irish.
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All the what-if's and maybe's won't change the historical fact that we lost in the final minute to the French. At the end of the day the experience of such a bruising contest will benefit Irish Rugby in the long run.
Congratulations to both teams for producing the most exciting game of the entire weekend, and the best of luch to France in their persuit of a Grand Slam and the Championship. I'm looking forward to the 21st September already!
And roll on the 24th February and the opportunity to finally find top gear in the Six Nations. Shame that the opposition will be so poor.
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Even being English i felt absolutely gutted for Ireland. A Grandslam has been well overdue for the lads in green. I do agree with the comments concerning the final penalty being kicked. Running down the clock would in hindsight have been a more sensible option. On a positive side, it was fantastic to see such an exciting game of rugby compared to saturday (all credit to Italy however). Am now slightly fearful about a possible backlash come the 24th.
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I think Ireland can be forgiven falling for the Grand Slam hype when you consider the team is a true all Ireland team and the only "Irish" team with genuine world class ability,north or south.I think they were carrying a lot of hope for the island as a whole, which was emphasized by the historic choice of venue.
The real victor is the tournament and the game.Having listened to the soccer bores before and after games it is so refreshing to listen to participants comments.The frankness and honesty makes it compelling viewing.This goes for all the teams and (most)of the commentators.I had the best laugh for a while listening to the Moore/Butler exchanges in the England/Scotland match!
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It was the first time after a 6 Nations Defeat I ever really felt truely disappointed. We had it won and every thing, just shows that even at the highest level you can lose your concentration for 2 Seconds and are punished.
I thought Shane Horgan would never work in the centre and I was right, we missed slick hands in the centre to gel the back line.
Hopefully against England we can turn it on again and hope for another Triple Crown to boost abit of confidence ahead of World Cup time. Ali
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Why did the Irish take the points at 14-13. The forwards had just repelled France 30 yards back into the French half.
Why not kick to the corner and catch and drive? There were but a few minutes to kill and even if they'd lost the lineout the French had to make it the length of the field!
This was the match of the tournament so far but such a shame the result went blue not green.
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It was a shocking result, Ireland should have won that game based on their 60min performance after the french flew out the block in the first 20min. however the score would have been much different if whistle happy steve walsh was never allowed to referee such a large game way out off his capablities. He made so many mistakes.
1. Blowing the whilste to soon just before Geordan Murphy ran length of field.
2. Playing no addvantage in general.
3. Not giving a penalty try or at least a penalty for stopping Marcus Horan illegal reclaiming his grubber kick.
He should never be alound to referee a match of that standard. I feel gutted for Ireland, and lets hope justice is done and Wales beat France in State and Ireland beat England.
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as an english supporter watching the irish france games yesterday just showed that these two teams are way ahead of anyone else in the 6N, however I think this should be Ireland's time as they have the best prepared team in the 6N with many talented players and they must win something as i think in the next few years england will finally come to their senses (i say should but you never know the rfu and clubs need their heads banging together )and prepare properly and be able to compete on even terms again and with the resources available should be up the top again although that is not a right it will need to be earned like 2000 - 20003 . So lets hope the Irish with the magnificent support (croke park sounded amazing compared to the silence of twickers ) can put in a decent effort in the world cup and must have the attitude of winning it and everyone enjoying that party !! as england will be quarter finals at most !!
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Steve walsh actually controlled the breakdown superbly and listening to his commands I felt it was totally clear when the forwards had to keep their mits off the ball in the ruck.
He was very consistent to both sides. look at the penalty count ireland only conceeded 4.
Regarding murphy's possible try from the lack of advantage. it was knocked on and france were actually still in possession when he blew for a scrum. as soon as he did the ball went loose and GM ran and picked it up. correct discision. I had real worries about walsh before the game but i was definately proved wrong to doubt
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I fear this comment may not be popular with either side, but it was actually a great game! Compared to the two other games of rugby this weekend, it was a rose between two thorns. Both sides made mistakes; the lesser side played above themselves to score an astounding victory in the last minute. Sure, the "better" side made a lot of mistakes and the referee was rubbish. However, if it were not for this match, a viewer new to international rugby would have concluded that it was a turgid boring place-kicking contest conducted in a mud-bath.
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It is a real roller coaster ride as an Ireland fan. The slow start problem has been around for a few years and has not been dealt with satisfactorily. The team retains my full support, however, I think the France match has shortened a few international careers. The next team selection will be interesting and I expect to see some changes.
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It's a shame ireland lost on their croke park debut, but as a neutral i thin the 6 nations so far has been a great advertisement for rugby. Think back to the England/scotland, wales/ ireland matches and now ireland/france.
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On these pages at the weekend I predicted a 19-17 win for France. I am devastated by the way we lost but proud of the way we fought back and nearly won. We are a match for France and as EOS said the bounce of the ball(on several occasions) favoured France. But they deserved their win and will win the Grand Slam now. Ireland will bring back Stringer and BOD and the England match will also see the return of axe murderer Best on the flank. Make no mistake-Ireland will beat England by 15 points and go on to win the triple crown. They will also beat France in the World Cup.
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Poor Mike #23,grow up you label Walsh incompetent yet it was nothing to do with him!!.You threw that game away because of a lack of control at a crucial moment.You thought you had the game won instead of concentrating on the job at hand.Walsh had blown albeit to early and everyone bar Murphy had stopped playing,this was showboating on his part.Horan wasn't fouled at all and still managed to get to the ball,lack of skill caused him to knock-on and you reckon penalty try....you're having a laugh!!!.As I said earlier in other posts learn to accept defeat when you are fairly beaten,otherwise you'll soon sound like what you accuse us English of being and you wouldn't like that would you?????
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To be honest, if I was England I'd be feeling pretty confident at the moment. Both sides games were riddled with errors, and both sides struggled to string a number of passes together before dropping the ball. What came out of this match was Ireland saw that without O'Driscoll they lack any sort of attacking flare, something he can provide, along with a moment of 'magic' which can turn a game on its head. France were, well, France, and I felt deserved winners. For me, England SHOULD win the 6N (if it were a fair game), but you can never bet against Ireland OR France to upset them.
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Many people seem to be arguing that things would have been better with Stringer at scrum half. Yet, the short comings of the Irish team had to do with mental lapses rather than the ball provided by Boss. Stringer may, and for me it is a large if, have a quicker delivery, but it is also wildly inaccurate arriving at player's knees. Boss has more arrows in his quiver, but I don't think he is going to get the chance to prove his worth as EOS sticks to his faves...many of whom have not risen to the occassion over the past two weeks.
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The Irish shot themselves in the foot with some of the weakest tackling i ve seen in a while.I couldn t believe my eyes. France were simply more consistant on the day and deserve the win.
I doubt either team will walk away with a huge psychological advantage. It was a great game,one of the teams switched on twenty minutes too late.
Personally i m delighted the French won; they ve been quiet, steadily improved and they ve turned up again when it matters. Still, as an England supporter it won t help our cause. France look on form (wish Chabal was English)and Ireland apparently view the England game as some kind of battle to the death.
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France make it 5 in a row against ireland. Time to be humble and learn from mistakes. Maybe this result can contribute to Ireland finding the right mix of daring do and determination needed to beat France where it really counts in a world cup encounter. This is a big wake up call for a team rated top 3 in the world. Playing without O'Driscoll and coming within a couple of minutes of beating the world cup hosts can still work towards an improoved effort later this year. There's always the next game -and it's england at croker one for the emotions no doubt but the secret of world cup success have to be extracted from the fall out of the French victory. Dare to win Ireland. GO FOR IT!
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France make it 5 in a row against ireland. Time to be humble and learn from mistakes. Maybe this result can contribute to Ireland finding the right mix of daring do and determination needed to beat France where it really counts in a world cup encounter. This is a big wake up call for a team rated top 3 in the world. Playing without O'Driscoll and coming within a couple of minutes of beating the world cup hosts can still work towards an improoved effort later this year. There's always the next game -and it's england at croker one for the emotions no doubt but the secret of world cup success have to be extracted from the fall out of the French victory. Dare to win Ireland. GO FOR IT!
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Here's a thought, England didn't do that well against Italy due to the Italian forwards fronting up and matching England. However they still won.
Leicester demolished the Irish/Munster pack not once but twice this season.
So putting these two pieces of information together, it would be expected that the Irish pack will be going backwards against England, now packs going backwards concede penalties, Lord Wilkinson does not miss many of those i think.
You may find that BOD & his little band are playing catch up.
so perhaps in 2 weeks we could be 3/5 of the way to a very unlikely England grand slam, now that's a nice thought for all the Celtic nations
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Post 42,
Dream on dreamer!!!
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Post 5 says something rather sad about a certain kind of Irish (and English) supporter:
"They (Ireland) proved for the majority of that match why they are the best team in the tournament."
Look at the stats: Ireland came second to France in every department of the game, including the one that really matters- point scoring. They played very , very poorly for large portions of the game. They scored one brilliant try but otherwise never looked like scoring a try. Their forwards were outclassed, and if anyone wants to complain about the ref they would have to ask how on earth ireland got away without being heavily poenalised at the scrum where they were out of their depth.
As for the bounce of the ball and missed kicking opportunities- Skrela missed two, and Beaxis hit the post, whilst Walsh bizarrely penalised the French when the Irish were forced to illegally wheel a scrum deep in their own half.
France were not "smug"- they were better. More clinical, more professional.
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I Think the whole issue about the Irish losing to France is summed up by the title of this blog "slam slips away". Grand slams do not slip away after 2 matches, grand slams slip away in game 5 after first gaining 4 victories, perhaps the whole team is just a little bit ahead of themselves.
as for post 43, we will see in 2 weeks.
The fans like the players need to wait until they actually win something before they tell us about it.
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Post 44
I don't think anywhere in the stats does it say that the Irish pack were outclassed. This is the Irish pack that mauled 35 meters in the closing minutes of the game. Again maybe wishful thinking. Yeah you can talk about a few missed penalties and drop kick, we can also talk about the missed opportunites to take kicks when penalties were presented to Ireland. I think the game was won fairly by the french and would be saying the same if Ireland won. It was a close and even game. The stats reflect that more than anything else. The score also reflects that!!!
I think you need to laern a little more about forward play mate!!!
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As unpallatable as it may be, this Irishman knows Ireland were the masters of their own downfall on Sunday. We had plenty of chances to rack up points and chose not to; our defence, particularly in the middle of the park was very poor and we leaked two very soft tries. Of course there were positives, Wallace particularly had a great game. But Ireland still suffer from their age-old problem, they cannot control games. Against Australia I thought that maybe we had conqeured this but it was, after all, a meaningless game with little pressure. Not to mention a below par Australian team. I do feel quite positive for the world cup, even though it may not sound like it. France are our big game, if we lose that one and finish second in the group (assuming we beat the Pumas) we will most likely play the All Blacks in the second round. I for one cannot see us beating them on Sunday's performance.
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Win or loss, finally who cares ? Just a rugby game. I know irish friends it's painful. But frankly, who cares ? France and Ireland displayed an enthralling game. and this is just what it matters. will remember for a long while those last minutes, with both sides pulling off each colossus driving mauls...
I love irish spirit, I love irish audience. Each time we meet each other, we delivered fantastic games. remember Paris last year. Was frantics as well, in a whole different style..
cheerio all
s
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Did the guy who wrote this even watch the game???
Clerc sucker punch "deep into injury time"
Explain to me how you came to that conclusion, being that injury time is not played in 6 Nations matches?
And there were 5 minutes of normal play left when Clerc went through.
Also i disagree with the anthems comment, the biggest noise came during the match when they sung "the fields" not Irelands call, most of the Irish players didn't even sing it at all!!!
My view is that had BOD been playing then the Irish would have won, D'arcy was making a break and freeing his arms for the offload everytime he hit the line, but horgan was not in tune like BOD would have been, shame really cos Horgan didn't have a bad game as replacement centre, but saying that Ireland looked a lot less likely to score.
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"I don't think anywhere in the stats does it say that the Irish pack were outclassed."
Then you should have a look. here they are.
In particular note possession and territory, turnovers and set piece (and the stats here don't take account of the second line out the irish lost when mignoni broke through and stole the ball). Losing a scrum against the head at this level is completely inexcusable.
" think you need to laern a little more about forward play mate!!!"
Really? Yes the Irish put together a good rolling maul , but the french put together several including one to close out the game. Ireland had a line out on the french 5 metre line and didn't look close to scoring. And despite a lot of effort the Irish forwards and Boss got very little change around the fringes.
And if you think Ireland were competitive at set piece scrums then with all due respect I think you need to learn a little about scrummaging yourself.
So it will be interesting to see how this Irish pack and in particyular its distinctly creaky front row match up to England's and how they are ajudged by a different ref. I'll be supporting Ireland , but i think up front they will struggle again.
Scrums won/lost:
Ireland: 5/1
France: 11/0
Line-outs won/lost:
Ireland: 20/1
France: 13/0
Penalties/free-kicks conceded
Ireland: 4/1
France: 10/0
Ruck and drive/ruck and pass:
Ireland: 22/46
France: 13/45
Turnovers won:
Ireland: 5
France: 12
Tackles made/missed:
Ireland: 74/10
France: 84/16
Errors made:
Ireland: 15
France: 12
Minutes in possession - first half/second half:
Ireland: 10:31/14:10
France: 14:25/13:30
Minutes in opponent's half - first half/second half:
Ireland: 18:11/21:30
France: 25:08/28:11
Top tacklers:
Ireland: Leamy 11
France: Betsen 11
Top carriers:
Ireland: D.Wallace 8
France: Chabal 8
Most errors:
Ireland: Boss 2
France: Skr茅la 3
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totally agree post 50 comment about the irish front row, John Hayes is probably the worst prop in international Rugby, which considering some of the Aussie props is saying something.
how he ever made a lions tour is beyond me.
Having had a quick look at rwc draw, The Irish had better win their group, as the quarter final with the AB'S awaits, but at least they'll get the rest of the month off.
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I think you are one of these people who watched Munster v Leicester and have hoped on the bandwagon. If you try hard enough you may be able to convince yourself that Ireland have a weak set of forwards.
Wales and France were supposedly going to target this area, their selections proved that. Neither of them out muscled the Irish forwards and parity was achieved on both counts. Ireland even put the squeeze on the french scrum.
The stats still do not prove that the Irish forwards were 'outclassed'. If we were so 'outclassed' I think the score would of reflected.
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51.
You obviously base everything on the scrum, totally one dimensional (like England). A prop is not all about the scrum, the game has moved on. It is about support, work rate, getting to the break down, lifting etc. Have a closer look the next time you watch a game.
Bitter english, just cannot handle the fact that you are inadequate at the moment, get over it!! You will get there again eventually!!
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Ireland were hopelessly outclassed at the scrum and lucky not to be penalised more. I would agree that the job of the modern prop is much more than scrummaging but unfortunately John Hayes is inadequate in many areas (although his lifting might be good - it's pretty hard to tell). Lest we forget he was cluttering up midfield and missed the vital tackle on Clerc. Ireland are a fine side who may well beat England in a couple of weeks time but they aren't half as good as many of their supporters (and posters to this blog) seem to think. England were disappointing against Italy but comfortably beat Scotland (and yes I know all about Wilkinson's try - shades of Shane Horgan last year which I bet none of you complained about)who in turn comfortably beat Wales. As I've said, Ireland may well win in two weeks time, but if they think that it is going to be as easy as some of the posters here do then they're going to be in for a nasty surprise.
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"Neither of them out muscled the Irish forwards and parity was achieved on both counts. Ireland even put the squeeze on the french scrum."
Er...you mean in 1948 , right?
They unsettled the French once out of 17 set scrums. The french still got the ball away. Is that what you are referring to? Other than that the scrums were very poor for Ireland, they lost one against the head, went backwards at most of their own and could have been penalised a number of times. And in the loose apart form one impressive rolling maul I think the French did indeed out muscle them much of the time- they seemd to get acorss the gain line significantly more often than the Irish.
Obviously you disagree which is fine, but most impartial comments seem to agree with me on this.
I didn't see Munster Leicester, by the way, and I'm not hopping on any bandwagon (is there one?), just saying what the stats show very clearly, and what was obvious during the game.
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I think there are some harsh comments being made about the irish side. On form, they were the strongest NH side before this tournament and it must be desparate to have lost the GS dream in the last few minutes. However, I think you have to try and look at this objectively.
I believe that Ireland have several world class players (BOD, POC, Darcy) and several more very good internationals (Leamy, Murphy, Wallace, DOC). However, the lack of quality at key areas is the handbrake that holds them back. For example, players like Hayes, Stringer, Boss are solid club performers but are exposed by the best teams and in the key moments. It is no surprise to me that the decision not to take penalties that could have sealed the game was due to Boss primarily not taking the responsibility or that Hayes missed a tired tackle on Clerc. It is credit to Ireland that they are playing at such a level that these players are being scrutinised. If you think about the likes of Justin Marshall or even (god forbid..) Dawson, they would have taken the penalty. If that is partially inexperience, the lack of real quality in the front row might hurt Ireland more against England. I think Ireland could still beat the English without the majority of possession but it will be hard.
Bad luck Ireland, good luck for the England game. I am also looking forward to you guys coming to Murrayfield after....
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OK we lost, whether it was down to poor decision making, dodgy refereeing decisions or emotions on the day the result stands and Ireland must look forward.
There were a lot of positives that can be taken from the game with the Irish pack finally waking up in the second half giving their backs some forward momentum. One particular moment that stands out for me was Neil Best coming on and at one point single handidly rucking three french men off the ball and turning over possesion that he had no right to win, absolutely brilliant and an example to his collegues.
The well rested Irish pack need to up their game and hammer the English pack next week, and they need to do so from the outset, not 20mins in.
With forward momentum and perhaps not such a rediculously flat attacking line, the Irish centres should open up the English backs with ease.
Finally we must not be in such a hurry to kick away valuable possession with Robinson back for England and in obvious try scoring form. If we are going to kick for field position, then the wingers need to be sharper than against France!
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51.
You obviously base everything on the scrum, totally one dimensional (like England). A prop is not all about the scrum, the game has moved on. It is about support, work rate, getting to the break down, lifting etc. Have a closer look the next time you watch a game.
Bitter english, just cannot handle the fact that you are inadequate at the moment, get over it!! You will get there again eventually!!
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I agree with other comments made here: Ireland we guilty of claiming the victory before the game was over. Sport is littered with self proclaimed victors who celebrate success only to come a'cropper before crossing the line. The manager, captain and players can claim otherwise until they're blue in the face, but the way they defended the final restart spoke volumes!! The game was over and it was just a matter of playing out the final few minutes with the ball in their hands.
That the French never gave up hope or belief is great testament to the side. They will surely take a lot from this game not only for their remaining 6N fixtures but also for the RWC.
I'd like to take a few minutes to take issue with 'Mike' - 12/02/07 05:10PM. To say that this game is outside of Steve Walsh's capability is so wrong it's laughable. To say that he didn't give advantage is so erroneous that your comments should be struck off this blog for being so one-eyed that your font should be shamrock-green. The simple fact is that Ireland made bad decisions at crucial times and lost the game because they didn't take advantage of the advantage the SW gave them. They probably lost the game before they took to the park because of their talismanic reliance on BOD!
Mike, stop whinging and crying and take the defeat like a man. Lick your wounds, learn from your mistakes and come back stronger! But, most importantly, give praise to your opponents for playing better than you on the day. That is how to take defeat!! Not by looking for any excuse, real or imaginary!! Ireland lost! The Grand Slam dream is over for another year! Deal with it!
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It was NOT the wrong decision to kick for goal with 4 minutes to go.
The bad decisions were made earlier when Ireland has chances to kick for goal.
A kick to the corner would probably have seen out the game for Ireland, but a kick to give yourself a 4 point lead is something you don't turn down.
Ireland should have been able to secure the restart ball, and should have set themselves up defensively.
Ireland turned down their chances during the second half to put points on the board - you always have to do this against France or you'll get punished.
Ireand played just as well as France but poor decision-making has cost them. Making the correct tactical decisions is what Ireland need to get right.
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"emanating" ??????
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Blimey, 'tis rather heated in here. I was as gutted as all the Irish when France went over for that try, but it was so predictable. Last five minutes, just secured a 4 point lead, and unable to safely take the restart ball. We did not play as well as France, they deserved the victory and hopefully Ireland will learn from it. What it did do was put into stark reality how dependent we are on a few players. BOD being out resulted in a completely reshuffled backline. This, as anyone who has played in the centre will know, does not simply impact on offence but has major consequences on defence. Shifting between inside and outside centre is not easy as you will predominantely be tackling off the opposite shoulder. Yes, of course you could argue that top-class players should be able to adapt, but when you're up against a team with the class in the back line of the French, a split second is all it takes to lose.
Ireland lost, France deserved the victory. Apart from 20 minutes in the second half, Ireland were second best for the whole game. Having said that, I'd be more positve being Ireland than Fracne going into the world cup. We will be better by then, they are still in somewhat of a disarray selection wise (which is also a frightening thought as potentially they could be great). If things start to slip from plan for the French at the world cup they will be under immense pressure.....and France are not the best with pressure.
There endeth my rant for the day. Roll on the 24th February.
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45,
Face it, England are one dimensional, all you can hope for is that your gym monkeys out muscle a team. Haven't done that against Ireland for 2 years, have you?
Try and come up with a plan b or c but I doubt England can, as seen against the Italians.
They must be handing out rose tinted glasses at Twickers these days!!!
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It's just setting itself up perfectly.
Can't believe that anyone questions Horgan's try in Twickenham last year, compared to Wilkinson's 'try' (should that be 'effort'?) - post 54. Same kind of stretch, except that Horgan made it, TMO and replays confirmed he made it, and Wilkinson didn't. Hope he scores a hattrick just for that comment alone.
And as for the attacking of Hayes? John Hayes is a legend. For Munster, for Ireland, ever present, ever dutiful. He may not be world class - what prop is, I ask you? But his all round game - his defence, tackling, maul, even the occasional carry, with his lifting in the lineout, it all amounts to the first name on the team sheet. No question. Legend. Monster. The Bull.
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As a Scot with Irish heritage I was very disappointed by the end of the game. I honestly thought Ireland were going to win after O'G had put that penalty over with a couple of mins to go. However, the competition is still open & if France slip up then it could be down to try difference so don't give up hope yet.
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Post 45 is spot on!
To declare that a Grand Slam dream has slipped away after only your second game suggests a serious case of chickens having been counted before they hatched.
Confidence is one thing, and I don't blame Irish supporters for feeling it. But a bit too much romance and bravado has clouded your judgement of Sunday's game. Forget the fact it took a try in the last few minutes, it was France's game to win, not Ireland's to lose. They deserved it.
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Had a couple of days to calm down after the stress of Sunday
Some people say about Irelands over dependance upon one BOD well look at it this way
Rugby is the fourth most popular sport in Ireland in terms of players
Irelands total population is less than 10% of that of England and France
France have the added advantage of being able to pick the very best players from French Africa or of French Adrican descent
England can pick players who switch codes from rugby league to rugby union in fact one such player scored a try for them in the RWC final 2003 remember?
So all in all you should think that England and France should be swatting away the other 4 nations and contesting the championship and GS year after year and how boring would that be!
In reality
Wales won a grand slam in 2005 and then allowed player power to cause meltdown and went in to reverse ever since
Ireland although not winning the championship have won a couple of triple crowns and finished above either France or England each year since 2003
So we should be mighty proud that we can compete at these levels consitently
Sure we depend on BOD who wouldn't? even the Kiwis concede that he would be a contender for a place in thier team if he were from there
England also depend on Wilkinson to the same extent just look at the difference since his return when Hodgson and Goode were the OH possibles nobody but nobody feared them.
In the cold light of day the French performance was pretty good on Sunday the first half they were powerful and really should have been at least ten points to the good not just two, drop goal rebound in the second half and a couple of missed penalties as well they seem to be producing a thoroughly efficient winning team with a huge pack up front now where have we seen this before HMMMMMMMMMM Sydney in 2003 seems fairly similar
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Ireland didn't win the match because they weren't good enough. It's that simple.
If you don't take your chances in professional rugby then you lose games. A more mature team would have taken the kicks rather than playing advantage - advantages which had clearly expired before the inevitable turnover - and sealed out the game.
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Beatin' ye pompus gits will taste even better after reading this. Since when did the English jump on a French bandwagon? Bitter bitter little men and women!!!
Under the shadow of the Hogan Stand, will your roses be found wanting. It's always good to beat ye but this time will be so much sweeter.
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#56 ContinentalOp.
Your post was refreshing. Fair play!
Good to see that there are still one or two people with brains still watching the game.
All of us Irish are gutted after the defeat. Not because we expected to win but the fact that we got our noses in front and our hopes were crushed with a minute to go.
France in my eyes were the better team overall and congratulations to them. They should never be underestimated and anyone who ever does is a fool.
France were the real Grand Slam favourites despite the fact that the media, especially the British media continuously insisted that Ireland were.
France have 90 players together every January which they reduce down to their 22 for the 6 nations. How can Ireland realistically compete with that on a regular basis?
Despite that I honestly think France have our number but we are trying to get to grips with that.
Anyway lets roll on to the 24th and try to beat England for the 4th time in a row. Its good to see from the English fans on here that they are not getting carried away with themselves.
Ireland fans, let's keep our heads and hope that the class of the players comes through Saturday week. If they show their class they will win.
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67 Mark >>>A more mature team would have taken the kicks rather than playing advantage
So true.
Why, oh why do captains/teams so often elect NOT to kick for 3 points?.....it is baffling ....and always amusing when they are subsequently punished.....surely captains should have it drilled into them that they should always take the 3 points unless a, they have no-one in the team remotely capable of kicking for goal b, it is 5 minutes to go and they need a try to win c, they are so far ahead (20 points plus) that it doesn't matter.
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Any other country in the tournament then i would've said kick the points, but given Irelands complete incompetence at catching kick offs I would've kicked for the corner. The amount of times in the past ireland have kicked a penalty only to give one away from the restart and hand 3 points back to the opposistion, they did it twice in the game against england last year. I'm devestated about the result cause i really thought this was our year for the grandslam but hopefuly our poor restarts being so cruelly exposed will force action to rectify them. I always shout at the telly when england players pretend they're jumping for the ball just to block the run of an oncoming player but we need to start playing that way.
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ireland would have won if they hadn't gone for goal but touch instead on that last penalty with but a minute left (reminiscent of oz & campese in 1991) and played out time and possession on the french line.
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Mark at post 68 - I think to say that Ireland lost because they weren't good enough to win is a little silly in such a closely fought competitive match. They clawed their way back into the match, took the lead, extended the lead and then lost to a last minute try. How many rugby matches do you see being lost in the last seconds - not many. You could replay that restart a thousand times and you wouldn't get that ricochet out of the base of the maul on the French side.
I do certainly agree that France deserved to win but it was 'a game of 2 halves' and Ireland certainly could have won - had that last kick of the ball bounced their way.
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I think it is right to say that we lost cos we were not good enough to win. Having said that I think great optimism should still be taken from that game. We were very close to beating France without playing well and without two key players and another two (Flannery and Horgan just coming back to fitness). Great teams win ugly when required and we almost did that. I think there is progression there and by the time we line up aginst them in September we will be even more settled and thy will still be struggling to find a outhlaf pairing that works. I thought Skrela was only average. Everyone should bear in mind that Ireland is a tiny country and unlike New Zealand/Wales and even Italy rugby is only a fourth choice game for kids. So to think that we are even talked about as favrourites and possibl semi-finalists in the RWC is something to be immensely proud of. When we lostto Wlaes in 2005 everyone said oh well the irish have played themselves out of the Lions - this is the end of the road for an old team, they will struggle in the next few years etc etc But since then we have Leamy - Flannery- Boss- Trimble - Best brothers - Neil Best - coming into the ranks. Even more importantly ROG and D'arcy are finding fantastic form which is hugely promising.
Yes it was awful - yes it was one of the most hurtful moments in Irish sporting history but that was because of the Croke factor the hype the fact that we lost in last minute etc. There is lots still to look forward to in Irish rugby
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Before this competition started there were many comments about how rugby fans are becoming less and less tolerant of each...gone are the days of enjoying the game with fans from rival teams. Many of the posts at that time were from English fans who appeared to be bewildered by the other nations desire to see England lose. It seems that this blog may give some indication of why...I find the vitriol from all sides, but particularly those who appear to be England fans, disheartening. Yes, I have my preferences, and some might even say prejudices, but remember we are here because we love the game. So, come on folks, lets talk about the merits of the game without slagging each other or our nationalities.
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eh post #14, graham, when did u hear ireland 'self-proclaiming' the grand slam.
it was all media-proclaimed hype. ultimately too much pressure for the team to handle. will france suffer the same home pressures in september?
for ireland now that the shackles are off expect the team to live up to its billing a little more.
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As I said above if BOD and stringer played I think we would have won. That is not to say by implication that either Boss or Horgan had bad games just that in such a tight game very small and marginal decisions decided the game. As BOD continually does he tackles better than any centre I have seen continually creating turn over ball be breaks the line more than most other centres (probably only Darcy is better in 6N). Stringer is very experienced at getting very quick ball and making better decisions than an experienced boss. He in my opinion would have taken the penalties whne they were available and opened a larger than 7 point gap so a last gasp try didn't break our hearts.
That besides was a great spectacle a great display and well done France for winning an enthralling game or an by the way Chris based on the weekend performance of England I find your conclusions of a poor Irish pack versus a dominant English pack hard to understand?
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When will the English every give the Irish the credit the deserve.We would like to think that we have always made the English welcome in Dublin and win lose or draw we will always give credit where credit is due. I would like to take a poll on this site and ask how many of the english fans were rooting for France last Sunday-Honestly. I cannot believe they would favour France over and irish victory. By the same token I wish the English all the best in Dublin all I ask is for a fair and clean match.
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What a pity to see so many comments damning the referee, especially when they are flat out wrong about advantage being played just prior to Geordan Murphy's alleged 'breakaway'.
The fact is that the French knocked it forward and the ball was recovered by a Frenchman - the referee then blew 100% correctly, as there was no advantage. That this player then threw an intercepted pass is neither here nor there.
On balance a very good game to watch but one, if one sets emotions aside, Franc deserved to win. On the day they were the better side.
I very much look forward to the Ireland England match. Hopefully, it too will be a joy to watch and may the better side on the day win, without all these soccer-like bleatings about the referee.
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Post 78.
Ciaran, I think he got a pair of those rose tinted glasses handed out at Twickenham the last few weeks.
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post 78
you have to consider that was aganst the Italian pack who is argueable the best in the 6 nations. Look at the scotland game. Then compare the scotland pack aganst wales who put the irish pack under alot of pressure. But to be fair you never know for sure untill the team face each other in the flesh. CAN'T BLOODY WAIT
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This is not a year in which anyone would remember a grand slam, this is a year for the world cup. Sunday was a feast of Rugby and a full Ireland team would have bested France, thats good knowledge to have. The win against England will be a fest of entertainment too, assuming they havent taken the same sleeping pills they took when facing Italy, but unfortunately none of the remaining challenges is a test that compares with the Kiwis.
Its a sad indictment that only 2 out of 6 European teams are going to compete with 4 or 5 Southern Hemisphere teams.
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Im sorry to say but it wasnt going to happen any way As a welsh man i think England are going to turn you over , maybe next year....
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A few thoughts on the game and Irish rugby in general:-
I think it is disingenuous of people to blame the referee or the bounce of the ball for the loss on Sunday, I personally thought Walsh had a reasonable game, he could have played advantage for Murphy鈥檚 intercept, but he blew up because France had recovered possession which was fair enough, he did miss the tug on Horan鈥檚 jersey, but he may have been unsighted and is human after all.
France were marginally the better team an certainly deserved their win for their never say die attitude, and their earlier dominance.
Strangely, I am less worried about playing France in the World Cup now, I believe that Ireland are a fitter side than most others (A trend I have noticed over the last 5 years is that Ireland almost always finish the game more strongly than the opposition), so I think they have a very good chance of turning them over in the Autumn. In fact, I wouldn鈥檛 be too bothered if they lost the upcoming tests to Argentina!
As for the people who think that Leicester pulverised Munster in the forwards in the recent game, I think that is a bit misleading, whilst Leicester gave Munster a right royal roasting in the scrum, I don鈥檛 believe they were particularly dominant in others aspects of forward play. In fact Munster could have stolen this game (possibly undeservedly) if they had taken a kickable penalty (bit of a trend there isn鈥檛 there?). It seems that some posters believe that this will translate into a huge advantage for England in the upcoming match. Well, these people might remember that 2 of the Leicester鈥檚 forwards are Irish.
I will stick my neck out and say that I think Ireland will beat England in the next game, but it is certainly far from a foregone conclusion and I do believe that England probably will at least gain parity up front, but I believe that Ireland have the backs to pinch the game.
As for those posters who think that John Hayes is rubbish. Really? Well, I will admit that sometimes he can struggle at scrum time, but more often can hold his own, but it is in other aspects of play that he shines. Believe or not, the current Munster and Ireland teams are built around him. Ireland鈥檚 main strength is what I would call an 鈥渁ttacking Lineout鈥 strategy, i.e. win your own lineouts cleanly and challenge on the opposition throw. To this end, Ireland are regarded as having some of the finest lineout jumpers, coincidence? I think not. Could be down to the lifting where Hayes is second to none. Added to this, his tackle count is very high (pity about the miss on Sunday, though!) and there is no better man when you need a driving maul to get going!
Finally, (sorry for the rant) there are people here saying that Ireland were 鈥渟elf-proclaimed鈥 Grand Slam Winners and the like. Who was proclaiming this? Not the team, not the management, not the fans (well, not the informed ones anyway!), it was the media, both in Ireland and the UK.
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Broken hearted.... simply broken hearted. I nearly cried at the national anthem and I nearly cried at the final whistle. A proper tragedy yet again hits Ireland sporting hopes. We're incredible underachievers and on the day I thought it could have gone either way and the result reflected that.
Having said that, I'm stunned by the whinging of the French about media coverage. Every blog I read or every comment I hear from the French, whether it be about player ratings or the tactics of both teams, makes it sound like the French are 'hard done by'. Deal with it.... the French were no more convincing than the Irish. Also, I fancy a wounded Wales side or the English team to push them, I don't expect them to win the GS. Lest we forget the Autumn internationals France Vs Arg & NZ. Allez ne bleu pas.
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As an Englishman of Irish descent I think Niall's comments are pretty much spot on.
I enjoyed the game, great occassion, shame about the result but the French for my money were the better of the two sides. The game was a great advert for the 6N and RU and I only wish I could have been there to cheer the boys in green on.
I hope I'm wrong but the N.H. sides look weak when compared with the rest. If Ireland had a built a track record home and away against the best (like England did 2002-2003)then they would be in with a shout for the RWC but Ireland aren't even close to that standard.
Sunday was a reality check for Ireland and I hope they learn well from the experience. I'm sure they will be sharper for the England game as a result.
To the Englishmen who say we are going to win the 6N. WAKE UP !!!!
We need another 18 months and returns from injuries to be at Irelands standard and a couple of years at least to be able to go south and challenge NZ and have any reasonable chance at getting a result. But, that said, I think England have turned a corner and won't be a walk over in Dublin as some of the more blinkered think.
Ireland to beat England by a score. N.Z. for the RWC (easily).
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Niall wrote: "I think to say that Ireland lost because they weren't good enough to win is a little silly in such a closely fought competitive match."
I'm not doubting their skill level, however it takes more than just skill to win a match. To be good enough you have to take your opportunities when they arise. Had Stringer been playing I have no doubt he would have dotted the ball and taken the points - that's why experience and tactical awareness is invaluable.
"You could replay that restart a thousand times and you wouldn't get that ricochet out of the base of the maul on the French side."
But the fact is that it shouldn't have mattered if they scored or not because the game should have been sealed out by then.
"Ireland certainly could have won - had that last kick of the ball bounced their way."
But it didn't. That's the problem. If you give a team a chance when you don't have to then you always take the risk of losing.
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A BIT of perspective, please. Sunday was not the disaster it has been made out to be and, if we get out the wide-angle lens, it could turn out to be a very good result.
Bear with me. The Grand Slam would have been great, a tangible reward that would far outrank the (soon to be) three Triple Crowns won on the back of England's decline. However, this year is all about the World Cup and Ireland's World Cup hinges on the match against France in Paris on September 21.
Argentina are a fine team, and will not be dismissed lightly but, eight years after Lens, Ireland are too good to lose to the Pumas again.
So it all comes down to France. Lose and it's the All Blacks in the quarters, we know how that goes. But beat the hosts, and it's a last-eight clash with Scotland. Next.
Now we're in 'pinch me, am I dreaming?' territory. The semi-final would be against Australia or, possibly, England, both eminently beatable and suddenly you're talking about little 'ol Ireland in a World Cup final against New Zealand.
But we have to beat France, and that's where Sunday's loss can help. The French expect to win, regardless of what stadium it is in.
It is that complacent attitude, fostered by four years of domination over Ireland and Sunday's 'Croker Choker', that will lure them into the perfect Irish ambush in September.
We are a better side than France - if we have a full deck to choose from.
On Sunday, we nearly won with a team that was operating at around 70 per cent of what it is capable of.
Ireland's backline balance was destroyed by Brian O'Driscoll's withdrawal.
It was amusing in the pre-championship build-up to hear people describing Shane Horgan as "Ireland's most improved player" as though he had sprung out of the Phoenix Park grass. Horgan has been excelling on the right wing for Ireland since 2000, as Jonah Lomu would testify after an afternoon of internment at Lansdowne Road in 2001.
However, he does not have the jinking abilities needed to negotiate the Red Cow roundabout that is an international midfield.
Peter Stringer's absence was possibly even more damaging. Bar stool experts, gulping from their two-litre of rugby cliches, regularly criticise the Munster man for "not having a break" and claim Isaac Boss is a scrum-half who "keeps the opposition back row honest".
Hopefully, Stringer's detractors will be silenced by events in Croke Park. Boss is a physical player but nowhere near his Munster counterpart when it comes to a scrum-half's primary duty - passing.
Stringer delves into the ruck and whips the ball away in one movement. Boss plucks out the ball, takes three steps back and then releases.
A crucial delay.
On Sunday, Irish fans were screaming at referee Steve Walsh to penalise the French backs for coming up too early. But the French were not offside, Boss's moonwalk routine gave them more time to rush up and pressure the Irish midfield.
Yet, despite these hinderances, we were one kick-off reception away from winning. With Stringer and O'Driscoll back, the Irish second row coming out of their quiet period and Denis Leamy returning to full feral fitness, Ireland are a different proposition.
This World Cup is set up for us. Eddie O'Sullivan has by far the most experienced, battle-hardened squad (shades of England in 2003) and a World Cup final is on the cards - if he can tap into this Gallic complacency.
History shows you can afford to lose an early skirmish to the French and go on to win the battle.
At Waterloo, the British cavalry were severely cut up early on which looked like it would cost the allies victory. Yet, France's greatest general ended up in exile after the allies regrouped to win the battle conclusively. And they were led by a Paddy.
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# Duella Pause - "Its a sad indictment that only 2 out of 6 European teams are going to compete with 4 or 5 Southern Hemisphere teams."
What? I think it would be fair to say that Australia and South Africa are far from vintage.
Who's the 5th Southern Hemisphere team anyway?
Current top teams
NZ - 1st (by a long way)
Ireland/France 2nd/3rd
Argentina 4th
England 5th
South Africa 6th
Australia 7th
Scotland 8th
Italy 9th
Wales 10th
Whatever other Southern Hemisphere team you wanna put here!!
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A BIT of perspective, please. Sunday was not the disaster it has been made out to be and, if we get out the wide-angle lens, it could turn out to be a very good result.
Bear with me. The Grand Slam would have been great, a tangible reward that would far outrank the (soon to be) three Triple Crowns won on the back of England's decline. However, this year is all about the World Cup and Ireland's World Cup hinges on the match against France in Paris on September 21.
Argentina are a fine team, and will not be dismissed lightly but, eight years after Lens, Ireland are too good to lose to the Pumas again.
So it all comes down to France. Lose and it's the All Blacks in the quarters, we know how that goes. But beat the hosts, and it's a last-eight clash with Scotland. Next.
Now we're in 'pinch me, am I dreaming?' territory. The semi-final would be against Australia or, possibly, England, both eminently beatable and suddenly you're talking about little 'ol Ireland in a World Cup final against New Zealand.
But we have to beat France, and that's where Sunday's loss can help. The French expect to win, regardless of what stadium it is in.
It is that complacent attitude, fostered by four years of domination over Ireland and Sunday's 'Croker Choker', that will lure them into the perfect Irish ambush in September.
We are a better side than France - if we have a full deck to choose from.
On Sunday, we nearly won with a team that was operating at around 70 per cent of what it is capable of.
Ireland's backline balance was destroyed by Brian O'Driscoll's withdrawal.
It was amusing in the pre-championship build-up to hear people describing Shane Horgan as "Ireland's most improved player" as though he had sprung out of the Phoenix Park grass. Horgan has been excelling on the right wing for Ireland since 2000, as Jonah Lomu would testify after an afternoon of internment at Lansdowne Road in 2001.
However, he does not have the jinking abilities needed to negotiate the Red Cow roundabout that is an international midfield.
Peter Stringer's absence was possibly even more damaging. Bar stool experts, gulping from their two-litre of rugby cliches, regularly criticise the Munster man for "not having a break" and claim Isaac Boss is a scrum-half who "keeps the opposition back row honest".
Hopefully, Stringer's detractors will be silenced by events in Croke Park. Boss is a physical player but nowhere near his Munster counterpart when it comes to a scrum-half's primary duty - passing.
Stringer delves into the ruck and whips the ball away in one movement. Boss plucks out the ball, takes three steps back and then releases.
A crucial delay.
On Sunday, Irish fans were screaming at referee Steve Walsh to penalise the French backs for coming up too early. But the French were not offside, Boss's moonwalk routine gave them more time to rush up and pressure the Irish midfield.
Yet, despite these hinderances, we were one kick-off reception away from winning. With Stringer and O'Driscoll back, the Irish second row coming out of their quiet period and Denis Leamy returning to full feral fitness, Ireland are a different proposition.
This World Cup is set up for us. Eddie O'Sullivan has by far the most experienced, battle-hardened squad (shades of England in 2003) and a World Cup final is on the cards - if he can tap into this Gallic complacency.
History shows you can afford to lose an early skirmish to the French and go on to win the battle.
At Waterloo, the British cavalry were severely cut up early on which looked like it would cost the allies victory. Yet, France's greatest general ended up in exile after the allies regrouped to win the battle conclusively. And they were led by a Paddy.
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Hookie Monster, enjoyed yor rant, well put together and I agree with everything you wrote.
As for your reply to Stella, I would disagree with South Africa at 6th, I would have them 4th (and it kills me). They came up here in the Autumn with about 80% so I think they will be a lot stronger come the world cup. By far stronger than England and that is not s slur on the English just a fact.
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Hookie,
You are right. 'Shades of England 2003' but no where near the track record England took into the RWC 2003. Ireland 2007 are a pale shadow of the England of 2003.
Ireland are a good side not a great side and it will take a great side to stop the AB's.
England 2003 were a great side (on the decline in my opinion by the RWC)and had Ireland put together performances of the magnitude England did 2002 - 2003 home and away against all comers then I'd take them v. seriously as challengers for the upcoming RWC. Ireland are in the top two of the NH sides which currently isn't a lot to shout about.
I'd hate to see the cup going south this year and hope Ireland (preferably) or France win it (as England are miles away), but get some perspective on where Irish rugby stands. Ireland have done nothing bar beat two 2nd xv's from the SH last autumn. A convincing win against France and a GS and Ireland would have been at best a good outside bet for the RWC.
All this said I'll still be rooting for Ireland to turn the AB's over and keep the silverware this side of the equator :)
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Why is it that Irish suppporters believe their team can beat NZ in the RWC final but not in the eventual quarter final in Wales? Is this what you call confidence? Beats me...
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To all the guys who think Ireland weren't good enough to win the Grand Slam - let's wait and see how things finish up. Sure, we lost in only our second match but if we win the rest (on paper, all easier opponents)we will ultimately have lost the Grand Slam to a last minute try. Now that's as close as you can get it and closer than we've come in a long while.
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Ireland are a good side with some fine players but the over confidence of some of their supporters beggars belief. This group of players has not won a single Six Nations Championship, it has not beaten one of the three Southern Hemisphere sides away from home, it has a poor front row and little strength in depth. Lest we forget this is an experimental French team that is also missing some big players and they played the better rugby for much of the match. Ireland may well beat England next weekend but unfortunately beating England is not the international be all and end all at the moment and they certainly should not be taking anything for granted - England's pack will give them something to think about, particularly in the front row where, I'm afraid, John Hayes is a liability - he can't scrummage and he missed the vital tackle on Sunday. Oh, and one last thing about Horgan's try last year - his foot was clearly in touch some time before he touched it down and the ref didn't even refer it to the TMO, so I don't know where post 63 is coming from on that one (although Ireland were still the better side).
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Two words will some up next saturday
WILKINSON
BOOT
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To post No 78 and other derisory posted comments.
You'll be amazed how many English supporters wanted France to win, me for one.
The reason being is that I see so many distasteful comments about the English and English rugby its no wonder we support Les Blues. The justification is that you would never get in most cases (if not all) get a non English home nations supporter supporting England. So why as an English supported should I ignore the snub.
It doesn't just come from the Irish, but all of the remaining home nations. England supporters get used to it and in a small amount cases English supporters play up to the stereotype of being arrogant.
Its clear that Ireland have a talented group of players that have gelled together over the last 5 or so seasons and Ireland on balance are probably the best team in the championship, but that doesn't make you champions, England are a testament to that, but finally realized their potential, Ireland will not be that fortunate.
Unfortunately time is or has run out for current Irish team and to win this elusive Grand slam especially looking at what is coming up behind the current crop of Irish players, seems even more remote. This goes for the world cup (not a hope). Wales can't score tries, Scotland kick even more than England and as for England they will too tired/injured to play or even care come September
So until the home nations grows up slightly and puts aside petty prejudices, France will always be my number 2, Christ I would even want Argentina to beat Ireland.
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To post 88 and similar: Ireland did not have its best team...but neither did France. The fly half (Skrela) has less than a handfull of selections to his name (and his replacement even fewer). Pelous was out (although he is not irreplaceable), our two most experienced scrum halves were not playing. With regards to the psychology of the World Cup you should visit some French rugby website and you'll see that Laporte says that the World Cup clash will be a different affair than what happened in Ireland (same comment after having defeated Argentina in the Autumn). So, you can cling to the hope that the frogs will be drinking champaign before even playing but if I were you I'd keep my fingers crossed that BOD and others are in good form in order to try to come close to France in that crucial first round encounter ;-)
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Post 96
Two words will come up next saturday
WILKINSON will be sure to get a good going over from the BOOT of any number of Irish players!
My advice aim for whichever limb they've gaffa taped up this week!
Thought I'd be in keeping with the other home nation supporters and wish England all the best at Croke Park. Yeah right! I'm sure #97 will be cheering on Les Bleus next weekend as well!?
I did support england against australia though at wc 2003 only the aussies are more arrogant and needed to be beaten!
Come on Ireland, and hope you still win the tournement. Mind you that'll mean either us welsh or england or even the scots (don't make me laugh!) need to beat the french! On current form though erm good luck!
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Answer to yan
Yan you explained into your comments that Irland has much less players than the others contries (France and England) and it is one of the reason you lost last Sunday against France.
My comments:
Fast all the irish players play in two teams. So they know each other very well.They use to play together for more 5 or 6 years.Please see the franch team (did you know before bauxis, Skrela, nallet ......?)
Also they gather much more each year than the french players.
BOB never prevented France to win (see the last 3 matches).
I think the worse for Irland is that your game is too predictable. Sorry to say that but you have no very good players but BOB. The problem is you can not make a team around only one player.
Some said that the referee advantaged France. PLEASE See all the irish off side line + faults into the scrums and on the ground NEVER judged.
France deserved to win.You should have get more 26 points after the first half if France scored all their opportunities.(against all blacks it will be more 40 points)
Some said that Irish will be better during the WC. Also us.
Regards
Sebastian
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Acually post 99 i was supporting Ireland. I wonder why so many English are supporting the french! Have you lost your senses? its the French! remeber traflgar? Well obvious not personally but its the principle that counts! England will win I can feel it I got a 拢100 bet on so they bloody better! Good luck Ireland can't wait to see O'Gara crying like a little girl as another Wilkinson penalty flies over from 50+ yards!
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An aging Irish team...possibly...English fans should know all about that...however, there is a good crop coming up...Flannery is on the younger side, Trimble, N. Best, Bowe, Boss...Ian Humphries and Paddy Wallace if they can get a look in...and that is just from the Ulster squad and its relatives...I wouldn't write them off just yet.
However, even with the rosiest of rose colured glasses I cannot see the Green shirted ones trotting out for the RWC final...there are too many teams that are still experimenting and you don't know who will show up come RWC time.
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Mike post 28.
Your poor view on the game is pathetic.
People like you keep saying that Ireland have the best side in Northern hemisphere...
What did they win so far ? Two test match against poor South african and Australian sides under gales and heavy rain. These teams would never have been lined up in an official three nation game.
Against the french last year the comment were that the irish did all the game. This year that's the bounce of the ball... what was it 2 years ago and the year before ? they were still french victories.
Until you win some titles you can't say you're the best.
Concerning the Marcus Horan stopping i think you see such action almost every match and the stopping was not obvious on live. It is on replay though . just one second... and look what he did of the ball when he tried to grab it: a knock on( not sure it would have been a try after all.. )
Concerning Geordan Murphy : well after the blue knock on, the ball came back in french hands so the ref whistled. It is normal. Geordan Murphy just didn't heard the whistle wich made everybody believing the ref whistled after.
Concerning the advantages it could have been both way and don't forget that Ireland should have been penalized a lot more in the scrums.
Look at the figures of the match and the ball possesion in opponent half and you'll see that even in second half France is still ahead.
I still think Ireland have a strong side. It is due to the fact that they play together in club and they play very few league matches compared to the other nations. they have a lot more time dedicated to the national team that allow them to go in Portugal and Poland to spend some time together.
However the paddies are very passionate about their national team. International rugby is not Heineken cup..... the mix Munster/ Leinster is good but not the best side.
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Post 101from post 78.
If only you had put your faith in england against the french how much better off you would now be and watching o Gara smiling with joy for a job well done was a sight to behold.
We still have the triple crown.
with the World cup next............
To post 97 where you saw anything derisory in my post I would like you to point out.
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