Six Nations state of play
- 27 Feb 07, 12:48 PM
After the pivotal third weekend, the is starting to look more settled.
France are the only team who can still achieve the Grand Slam, while Wales, with three straight defeats, are looking up at the rest of the sides.
Ireland are on course for a Triple Crown, but England took a big step backwards with their massive defeat in Dublin.
Italy showed they are a genuine force in the tournament with their first ever away win over a misfiring Scotland.
I've assessed the state of play with two weekends left to go.
ENGLAND Played: 3 Won: 2 Drawn: 0 Lost: 1 For: 75 Against: 70 Points: 4
Former England coach Andy Robinson said he - and his colleagues, including Brian Ashton - had identified the match against Ireland as "the game by which we must measure ourselves".
"This is a hugely significant staging post on England's road to the World Cup, and everybody is the camp recognises it," he said on Saturday morning.
England fans will be hoping Robinson, , is as wrong about that as he was about various selection issues during his tenure.
The men in white were simply destroyed by Ireland. If this game gave out any kind of message to England's World Cup rivals, it was of the "don't worry about us" variety.
Their campaign is showing ominous signs of mirroring last year's
England travelled to Croke Park knowing that victory would see a possible Grand Slam on the cards.
But in the wake of their emphatic defeat, England need to overcome France - who they have not beaten - or else start they could be looking at another fourth place.
FRANCE Played: 3 Won: 3 Drawn: 0 Lost: 0 For: 91 Against: 41 Points: 6
After their less than impressive showing in the autumn internationals (admittedly ), some tipped France to struggle.
And when head coach Bernard Laporte promised to rotate his side like a roulette wheel, critics suggested France's comeuppance - for treating the Six Nations as a mere warm-up for the World Cup - was nigh.
But with three wins from three matches, France are in pole position to win the Grand Slam and successfully integrate players like and Pierre Mignoni for the World Cup.
Infuriating, isn't it?
IRELAND Played: 3 Won: 2 Drawn: 0 Lost: 1 For: 79 Against: 42 Points: 4
Eddie O'Sullivan's team may have started the campaign with hopes of an elusive Grand Slam, but blew that particular opportunity in a few mad moments at the end of their last match against France.
But having then blown England away at Croke Park in outstanding style, Ireland are well-placed to win their third Triple Crown in four years.
Ireland look to have put their heartbreaking defeat to France behind them quickly, and if the French slip up in their remaining two games, Ireland are in with a chance of the championship itself.
ITALY Played: 3 Won: 1 Drawn: 0 Lost: 2 For: 47 Against: 76 Points: 2
Saturday was a momentous day for Italian rugby as they secured their first ever away win in the Six Nations at Murrayfield.
OK, Scotland may have self-destructed in a ludicrous opening few minutes, but there can be no denying that Italy - with the superb Alessandro Troncon putting forward a good case for - fully deserved the victory.
Italy now go into their next match against winless Wales with high hopes of securing a second win in a single tournament for the first time and finishing above some of their illustrious rivals.
But Italy don't need to be patronised any more. Just try patting one of their on the head, saying "hip hip hooray, well done plucky little Italy" and see where it gets you.
SCOTLAND Played: 3 Won: 1 Drawn: 0 Lost: 2 For: 58 Against: 88 Points: 2
To give away one interception try in Test match rugby might be considered unlucky. Two? Careless, bordering on the criminal. But three? In five minutes? It's not so much shooting yourself in the foot as shooting yourself in the head.
Scotland were beginning to establish something of a "Fortress Murrayfield", but that illusion was shattered within .
It will be hard for Scotland to rebuild their confidence after that, and the visit of an in-form Ireland going for the Triple Crown is probably the last fixture they would have picked.
WALES Played: 3 Won: 0 Drawn: 0 Lost: 3 For: 39 Against: 72 Points: 0
With three defeats from three, the Wooden Spoon is a distinct possibility for Gareth Jenkins's team.
Although the display in defeat by France on Saturday was a step up from the woeful defeat at the hands of Scotland, Wales have plenty of work to do.
Their next match against the buoyant Italy, who they lost to in 2003, could break their faltering campaign, but a win in Rome could set them up nicely for the visit of England in the final round of matches.
Wales 27-18 England
Comments Post your comment
with respect Phil, this is such a bland article that it leaves me devoid of anything more substantive to write...
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Dear Mr. Harlow,
first of all, thank you for including Italy among the teams reviewed. Apparently, our players cannot be rated in your other blogs.
Secondly, 'But Italy don't need to be patronised anymore...': congratulations, because you did just that! What was the need to include this wonderful paragraph if not to suggest that we can still be patronised? Sour grapes?
Finally, should you or any on the 大象传媒 blogs need any help with the names of our players (often mispelled, always mispronounced), or their strenghts and weaknesses, send me an email and I will be happy to help.
Best regards
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England are better then they have been for 2 years,ireland beat them well and quite frankly they would have beaten anyone saturday including the all blacks-last summer ireland played against the blacks down under and competed very well!so lets have some perspective,england were not going to beat a world class team in ireland on saturday at this stage of the re-building process,however the motivation and desire is back,the will to win is back,with the odd change and time to train and build as a squad they will be competetive come the world cup! They need a leader in the back row,corry cannot do it at this level-dalliagio now wants it for one last time!!
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England's midfield can be sorted, simply by moving Strettle to outside centre, leaving Farrell at inside, lewsey and robinson on the wings and morgan at full back.
That gives the midfield pace and strength and dual kicking options.
Problem solved.
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I think the Italians were the best team of the weekend and I really respect what they have done over the past few years, Not taking anything away from Ireland as it was an immence performance but I believed that was always going to happen.
What annoys me is the press saying England played poorly which isn't and was'nt the case they tried to play but were outplayed in ever aspect. The words I think they should have used was "simple not good enough, not up to the standards of the Irish". The English gave it a go and then got blown out of the water.
I think the Italian Welsh game will be a cracker but can actually see the welsh nicking it through their backs, I hope the English beat the french after laportes comments about Ireland. So they can win a championship as I believe they deserve it. The poor Scots, I think the Irish Might Destroy them aswell.
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Well I enjoyed the article...
It's true that England are struggling on the world stage but relatively speaking they are doing well.
Under Andy Robinson's blinkered leadership it seemed that England simply could not admit that there was anything wrong and kept doggedly doing the same thing.
Now there appears to be a fresh approach and whether it's right or wrong, it at least seems to have the players responding in the right way.
Now England are finally admitting and coming to terms with the fact that they are miles behind the good teams and for the first time, seem happy with the mantle of underdogs.
Anybody could have beaten Scotland and Italy so was good that we were hammered by the Irish. It's a very exciting time for English rugby and just a shame that this didn't happen during the Autumn!
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Sorry Phil, you are wide of the mark on Pierre Mignoni in terms of the World Cup preparations. As a scrum half he is way behind Messrs Yashvili and Ellisalde, not only as an allround player, but also as a goalkicker. I would like a bet that Laporte will pick Yashvili in the game against England.
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When England performed quite poorly against Italy the other week, there was none of the "win's a win...job done...etc..." blather that we've been used to. Instead, it looked like Ashton had examined the Italy match, and had worked to eliminate some of the poor parts of their game, and I'm sure that had Strettle been playing in that position, that well, when Italy cleverly played to spoil England's tactics by kicking over the back line, then that result would have been a lot different.
Yes, we lost to Ireland, but we were never likely to win, the sin bin before half time was a huge blow, and the rest of the match was just damage limitation. So long as what happened gets analysed, and fixed, then the World Cup remains a good target. If we hear the pointless platitudes start up again instead, then that would be a bad sign, but I haven't heard any, and the players were visibly gutted at the end, which is a good sign.
And without wishing to sound patronising (but it probably will to the easily-riled) well done Italy - your improvement can only be good for rugby as a whole. I hope Ireland throw you four interceptions!
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Robert i do agree that England will are still on the way up. In some ways i believe that the defeat will help to stabilise the compelete over expectation heaped on them after the first 2 games. We are going to succeed under Ashton and i am not the person to say that unles i honestly believe it. However did laugh at the comment that Ireland would have beaton anyone inc NZ. Lets be frank about this we were so bad Georgia would have troubled us!! Ireland i still believe are ridding on a crest and credit to them but that good..I do not think!
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Didnt 大象传媒 Online used to run a section call hot or not saying which players were hot or not after the weekend 6 Nations games? Where is this weeks episode?
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england 'simply destroyed' were they? Erm, 21 points of the 43 were penalties! 3 tries against 1 is not 'simply destroyed' and not a bad ratio for a settled team like Ireland against a team in transition.
We need a 'speed merchant' outside Farrell. His passing and kicking skills are a bonus to Tindall's one dimensional play. With Robinson and Lewsey on both wings and Strettle on the outside of Farrell you have the makings of a quality backline. With time and confidence they'd rip most teams apart. Full back? No idea.
The forwards? Were do we start? Corry is a must to go. A dinosaur forward is something we don't need. We need rampaging forwards like the bloody All Blacks!! Confident with ball in hand and can interact with the backs with ease.
WDIK
ps can someone please tell Guscott and Carling they're idiots
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hmmm, i don't believe that, this year, Italy are a genuine force, but they are improving every year (don't mean to sound patronising but they are much better than last year). England need to rethink their squad, and I know every1 is using farrell as a scapgoat, however, you need genuine pace in the midfield, especially at international level, let alone at professional. Ireland were brilliant the other week, and i didn't expect anything else from them, however, i don't think they would have beaten the all blacks as someone on here suggested, newzealand are in a different league. i think wales will come up trumps against england (sadly)despite their last 3 matches and france to win the grand slam, dammit!
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Let's not start that rubbish again. England were terrible. There is nothing good about them. When one of the subs came on sporting a beer belly, I thought to myself, 'So that's a professional sportsman?'. Get a life. England won't beat anyone else this tournament and certainly not the French. You don't have to be a genius to know the French win the championship and the Irish the triple crown, but you must be a right wally to think differently.
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Not sure where Phil gets the idea that England are on for a consecutive forth-place?
Wales have to beat Italy and England to get 4 6N points and make up a scoring differential of about 40 points, Scotland have to beat either Ireland or France to get 4 6N points and make up a scoring differential of 30+ points and Italy have to beat either Wales or Ireland to get 4 6N points and also make up a score differential of 30+. I for one would be more worried about Italy on currebt form being able to overhaul England for third place than either Scotland or Wales.
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It's nice to see some England fans kidding themselves still. They were absolutely outplayed against Ireland and only narrowly won against Italy in a pretty poor performance by their standards. The fact that Italy put 37 points past Scotland shows that their first win was not anything special.
It's just a shame that the Ireland vs France game wasn't on the last weekend - what a game that would have been. France for Grand Slam and Ireland for Triple Crown. The rest of the table will stay as it is.
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I am surprised there are no comments about the 大象传媒's determination to have trouble or perhaps hoping for a shooting at the England, Ireland match.
Why all the irelevant history pre the game? How disappointed the 大象传媒 must be.
Revolted!
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Italy's progress since the five nations became the six nations has in fact been better than the initial progress France made when they first started playing the "home" nations. It is great to see but I do wonder how much it will strenghten Italian domestic rugby.
The bulk of Italian quality players are playing their club rugby outside the country. The domestic Italian clubs appear to have gone backwards over the last couple of years despite the national team. I feel club / district rugby is essential for longer term success of the game in any country and without it Italy will find it hard to compete at the top of the six nations table.
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What's really great about this championship is the psychology of the players and how they tend to sort themselves out after getting humped. I wouldn't be massively surprised to see Ireland only scrape through in Murrayfield and France lose in Twickenham. Got to agree though that the Wales Italy match could be an absolute cracker as both teams seem to be getting better at the same time but think Wales will struggle for a third straight match on the road - there more likely to be a banana skin for England at the end
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As its obvious France and Ireland now so much better than the other nations, perhaps they should break away from the 6Nations and concentrate playing the southern hemisphere teams, in order to improve their chances in the RWC, as the likes of England can't provide stern enough competition...
[NB - said with tongue firmly in cheek]
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What we are now seeing is the poor quality of coaching and coaches fixation on power and strength over everything else.
Young boys are taught at a very early age to play in the channels, pre-planned moves etc. What we are driving out of these boys is the ability to play what's in front of them a big hit now gets a bigger round of applause than a try.
The game in England is becoming sterile, it's Rugby League with rucks and mauls, even the scrums now look more like the one's Eddie Waring used to commentate on.
Let's get back to good old fashioned running rugby
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As heartbreaking as it was to see Scotland fall, it was equally heartening to see the Italians justly rewarded for playing the more controlled game. A quiet word must be given to Paterson, whose decision to go for seven points instead of three ended up costing Scotland at least 12 points, only served to make their cause seem even more hopeless. With 20 minutes to go, let alone 75, you always take the points.
I immensely enjoyed Ireland's performance against England. It was a thrilling spectacle and an amazing display of running rugby in very testing conditions. I do feel it is necessary though to point out that Ireland has never beaten the All Blacks. Their excellent form in New Zealand - where, it needs to be said, the All Blacks did not put out their best team in either match - and indeed their excellent results in the past few years may well not make them fear the All Blacks, but it is another thing to so brashly claim that they would have definitely beaten the ABs or indeed any of the other top sides. A good team capitalises on any mental edge - England are acutely aware of their recent failings against Ireland - but their finesse was lacking the previous week against a team in better form. If Ireland play like that against any top side they will be confident of victory but it is another matter to bring that type of game to a very good side. The English, in their rebuilding, are far from their best.
Despite a more spirited performance against France, I have been surprised by the performances of Wales. Jenkins is discovering what it's like to be a losing coach in a rugby mad nation: it's not pretty. Ashton will certainly be hoping for an improvement against France and Wales otherwise the important momentum and confidence gained particularly against Scotland will evaporate. And so too will the supporters.
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Post 5 Michael. Have to disagree with you mate. Don't think the Italian performance was the best of the wkend. I think that if any of the teams on Sat had been gifted 3 converted tries then they wouldn't be claiming it was fantastic. They would be saying that the opposition were very poor. Scotland basically shot themselves in the foot, arm, chest & head.
Best performance of the wkend was definitely the Irish as they may have been expected to win but I don't think they were expected to completely obliterate the England team off the park.
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Have a gut feeling Italy will beat Wales!. Ireland will win last two matches. France will beat England by a least 15 points.Wales and England will be hard to call. France will retain championship. Overal the standard of the six nations teams will not be of worry to New Zealand. The two games in Croke park will have been the highlights in summary.
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Go England, beat France by 3 points and we'll be delira with ya
Ireland are gonna win the RWC 2007, after we win the group and NZ knock out France in the quaters, we'll get them to food poison the all blacks croissants on the morning of the final, and bam, world champs
Harks back to the semis 1995, see we have learnt a trick or two from the southern Hemisphere
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As I watched the game last Saturday I was amazed at the difference between the 'togetherness' of the two teams.
When the Irish side achieved anything of note there was a congratulatory hand clap, slap or pat on the head from a fellow player(s).
When England did likewise, nothing happened.
I wonder if the English team has been together long enough to engender a team spirit. Without it the team will achieve little.
Finally I feel that the club-country debate is a major contributor to the under achievement of England rugby.
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England might as well forget about the world cup over the past 4 years all they have done is shown just how useless they are. They lost a generation of great players after the 2003 world cup who have yet to be replaced. At this rate it's looking increasing likely that it will take another generation for England to return to their former glory. 2011? lets hope we have a better run up than this.
For the Irish I was gutted when you lost to France I thought you really deserved the grand slam this year. Im half australian but I'm hoping a home nation will knock the ozzies out to shut up my australian family hopes it you cos it ain't going to be England
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RE 7. Yashvilli can't pass to save his life. I have never seen such a poor passer of the ball playing international 9. That said the French don't like going backwards and don't have many players who can play off the back foot other than Yashvilli. Also the french don't like mignoni that much.
Re the others.
Scotland didn't just self destruct by throwing interceptions they self diestructed because they kept kicking penalties to the corners and not at goal. Could have had another 15 points to claw back in and then maybe the Italians would have panicked a little.
Wales - wooden spoon
England - bossed up front
Ireland - awesome - but backs wouldn't have got through NZ in quite the same way and not sure the back row could have got to the ball quick enough against NZ.
Italy - credit to Troncon - easily biggest influence of the tournament.
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Post 11:
3 tries to 1? Did you switch off the tv early? you missed the 4th try - its a shame, I still giggle when I hear Brian Moores little scream when Boss intercepts! :)
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Yes it is noteworthy that all the hype and fear before the match came to nothing. It was also probably a very useful excercise that people got to air their views no matter difficult some of them from both sides were to hear. However without doubt the funniest thing are those who ranted about Englands chances, particularly if it rained. No Ireland won't win the World Cup, but with the right team on the field they could come very very close.
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To number "11" ERM what r u talking about it was 4 tries to 1 could have been 6 or 7. England were destroyed all over the pitch. 15 of the points were penalties not 21 and cuming 4m a english fan, where do u get nearly all ur points from johnnys boot thats rite.
That was an astonishing fictional comment from sum1 who prob knows nothing about rugby.
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At last, it's good to see a burgeoning acknowledgement from you English that your team isn't going to win everything just because Wilkinson is back. Wilkinson is only effective when his forwards keep the opposition away from him - when he has to start tackling members of the opposing pack, England are in trouble, and that's exactly what happened against Ireland. England need to recognise that new talent is needed, rather than an obsession with digging up all the old lags of 2003. They also need to develop a strategy that has more than one dimension, something they've been unable to do since the success of the 2003 formula. Although I'm not English (I'll be licking the wooden spoon along with all the other boyos come March!), I hope for the sake of the 6N that Egland can once again be the team to beat so all the other nations can feel seriously good about beating them!
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At last, it's good to see a burgeoning acknowledgement from you English that your team isn't going to win everything just because Wilkinson is back. Wilkinson is only effective when his forwards keep the opposition away from him - when he has to start tackling members of the opposing pack, England are in trouble, and that's exactly what happened against Ireland. England need to recognise that new talent is needed, rather than an obsession with digging up all the old lags of 2003. They also need to develop a strategy that has more than one dimension, something they've been unable to do since the success of the 2003 formula. Although I'm not English (I'll be licking the wooden spoon along with all the other boyos come March!), I hope for the sake of the 6N that Egland can once again be the team to beat so all the other nations can feel seriously good about beating them!
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I am perhaps a bit of an optimist here but the gulf in class between Ireland and England felt more like awesome Ireland than poor England.
It is a cause of frustration as and Englishman that our Celtic brethren appear to have some sort of overdrive system that only activates when the opposition is England. Paul O'Connell is the classic illustration. Anonymous when playing against Wales and France. MOM against England and not for the first season either.
I think England should have the measure of France at HQ, its Wales in Cardiff I'm worried about.
PS I realize that it wouldn't be the 6 nations any other way, but how can we measure the quality of our NH teams when 60% of their games are away from home in alternate seasons.(e.g were Wales really that good in 2005)
Surely to have a credible NH tournament, we should consider some way of playing a home and away format similar to the Tri Nations. Top 3 play for title, bottom three play for promotion to top three.
Just an idea.
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Here's one to hopefully get a debate going - player of the tournament so far?
My shortlist (in no particular order) is:
R. Ibanez
D. Wallace
A. Troncon
R. O'Gara
At present, I think David Wallace has it. Any comments?
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I am perhaps a bit of an optimist here but the gulf in class between Ireland and England felt more like awesome Ireland than poor England.
It is a cause of frustration as and Englishman that our Celtic brethren appear to have some sort of overdrive system that only activates when the opposition is England. Paul O'Connell is the classic illustration. Anonymous when playing against Wales and France. MOM against England and not for the first season either.
I think England should have the measure of France at HQ, its Wales in Cardiff I'm worried about.
PS I realize that it wouldn't be the 6 nations any other way, but how can we measure the quality of our NH teams when 60% of their games are away from home in alternate seasons.(e.g were Wales really that good in 2005)
Surely to have a credible NH tournament, we should consider some way of playing a home and away format similar to the Tri Nations. Top 3 play for title, bottom three play for promotion to top three.
Just an idea.
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richard kellaway,no 16. the reason for the "irrelavant" history before the ireland england game was because it was a historic occassion. croke park is the home of the gaa and it would have been the first time gstq was played at such a nationalist ground.it was also the scene of a massacre in 1920 where englsih soldiers killed 14 innocent people enjoying a match. the fact that this was being talked about throughout the weeks leading up to the game is because many english people don't know anything about irish history and they would admit that fact themselves.(despite being involved in alot of it) and they needed to know what all the fuss what about. i wouldn't class it as irrelevant.it was important for the englsih to know how significant the playing of gstq in croke park was. i'm not insulting englsih people- in fact i have lots of english friends. it was a great day and i think everyone learned from it.
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It amazes me how many people here are thinking that England have turned a corner and are moving in the right direction. Just what part of Saturday's record breaking defeat gives them such cause for optimism?!
Robinson's England team competed well with Ireland. Ashton's team were blown away. The only thing that I can see that Ashton has done for England is admit that they've got a lot of work to do (which you wouldn't have to be Einstein to figure out!) And play Jonny Wilkinson (which Robinson would have done given half a chance.) The English game plan from what I've seen of the last 3 matches has been "get near the opposition's try line and give the ball to Jonny." Worked well in 2003, doesn't work anymore as he doesn't have the players around him (Johnson, Hill, Dallaglio etc)
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Might it be possible for the 大象传媒 to provide one further interactive choice on digital - namely sound without commentator; just crowd and referee. One of the joys of seeing a match live is being left with one's own thoughts. Listening to pundits can be a pain.
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Very good point, ignorance will get u no where. Thats why strong culture and history in many countries Giv sporting occasions an extra edge and passion. Without knowledge of history and culture ur just another Jade Goody and ignorant pig.
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Very good point, ignorance will get u no where. Thats why strong culture and history in many countries Giv sporting occasions an extra edge and passion. Without knowledge of history and culture ur just another Jade Goody and ignorant pig.
Yeah also agree David Wallace and Troncon have been outstanding.
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Post 35:
D Wallace.
An almost complete and flawless showing so far.
If ireland are fortunate enough to meet NZ in WC believe the match will largely be decided in back row.
Irelands scrumaging not as suspect as we were lead to believe either.
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despite all the pre, mid and post match hysteria, the result against the english was largely irrelevant for ireland, having already lost our best chance of the grand slam since the 40's when murphy/hayes missed that tackle in the opening/closing minutes against france. the triple crown is poor consolation for this and we should be beyond gauging ourselves against mediocre benchmarks like that given the unbelievable team we have.
lets get hyped when ireland top the group in the world cup, not winning a match thats not far off the equivalent of NZ whipping the Baa Baas in a friendly (ie beating a team thats been together for only 2 matches).
even if we come second in the group, as long as the bull hayes is crying for the anthem against NZ for the QF in cardiff, the web ellis trophy will be living in dublin for the next 4 years!
PS post 11, in addition to ireland scoring 4 tries, not 3, and Strettle only scored because Horgan left his man and drifted in, im guessing for a potential intercept, which would have been delicious. anyway without that would have been 4 tries to nil i.e. a true whipping in any sense of the word.
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To Ben K (#42) and others....
You are in danger of getting as carried away with your (very good) win over Engalnd as England did with their win over Scotland. Any dreams you may have of meeting the AB's at the WC are still a long way off. It is more than reasonable to consider that you will be beaten by both France and Argentina in the Group rounds and you can all go home by 1st October and watch the rest play the big games! You will have comfort in being in the same situation as England who will also be at home having been beaten by SA and Samoa. So GB will be represented in the quarters by Scotland and Wales.... and where are they on the 6N ladder?!
I think you're getting well ahead of yourselves - you've never beaten NZ (and NZ have thrashed you several times of late with any one of about 3 teams they can put on the field), SA are gaining big strength (don't be fooled by your recent success against SA - they were only half there!), and Australia can surprise anyone when it comes to the big games.
The core NZ squad are in training and conditioning camp right now - they will emerge fitter, stronger, faster, and more skillful than any team ever. They were already in that position before they started! Not good news for the rest!
I cannot deny Ireland's very good form of late, and of course you will be competitive, but talk of the WC final is rather premature right now. The 6N is 2nd/3rd level rugby in terms of skill and pace, and the game has moved on - too late for this WC chaps!
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To 43, What r u talking about, how can u compare Irelands win over England to Englands win over Sotland?
Two totally different strenghts.
Irish fans are not getting carried away with themselves their being realistic about the teams chances. And on merrit and all round performances their entilted to get excited.
Ur living in the past, they have every chance of beating any1 in the world if they play to their ability. If they dont they will still beat teams like wales and scotland playing well below par. Thats no disrespect to those teams. But Ireland are just far superior at the moment.
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I would just like to point out to all the England fans who have insulted Welsh fans thoughout this 6nations, that other than a slip up against Scotland, Wales have played quite well. Whats more England we're poor against Italy and Ireland, so wins for France and Wales this weekend and England should be very very worried about the final weekend, they could still finish 5th!!
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