Terror questions?
So - we awake to news that a major terror plot has been thwarted. Security sources claim that the group, who have been under surveillance for months, wanted to explode as many as 10 planes, probably somewhere over the Atlantic.
Thousands of travellers are stranded, planes have been cancelled and the country's security threat has been raised to its highest level. There are a lot of questions we'll be trying to answer during the course of the day, for example:
• 1 - How close were we to "mass murder on an unimaginable scale"?
• 2 - Have the security services found any explosives?
• 3 - Why did the police decide to swoop today?
• 4 - Were they members of a foreign terror cell or were they British-born?
• 5 - How will this change the way we fly? Will we have to get used to flying without any hand luggage?
There are plenty more - let us know what questions you'd like answered, or if you can answer any of these.
Comments
I find Daniel Pearls' 4th question most enlightening. Is it now to be assumed that one cannot be part of a terrorist cell AND be British born.
The greatest danger the UK faces is from home grown terrorists and the sooner the various ethnic communities wake up to their responsibilty for eductaing their youth in tolerance of others the safer we will all be.
I certainly think today has showed, how competent our security forces really are. It will now be the test to see how well we recover, in terms of getting these unfortunate people on their holidays and the countries main airports up and running again. I would like to know your opinion on how long you think it will be until things get back to 'normal', if ever?
Were they members or a terror cell or were they British-born?
Come on Beeb, I expect better standards of journalism than this. Surely it's entirely possible British born people could be members of a terror cell?
Was this just a very poor choice of phrase or is it evidence of endemic institutional racism?
Whilst focus on in- and outbound flights is most urgent right now, is anyone thinking about preventing these terrorists from taking the bombs onto other transport, such as the tube?
Today's events ought to prompt the authorities to resove the ridiculous anomaly whereby you get your nailclippers confiscated as you go through airport security, but are then free to purchase as many bottles of highly flammable liquid as you can carry on the plane.
I refer of course to the spirits sold in the duty-free store. Why on earth cannot they not be sold on arrival, rather than on departure?
Hello,
I feel that you asking the wrong questins.
Of what practical purpose is the government achieving by making this song and dance? Don't we already pay for a security service that is supposed to deal with all of this quietly?
These sorts of articles are suspiciously like "the politics of fear". All they do is increase cynicism and allow the government to pander to the Tabloid media and certain moghuls.
What about:
• 6 - Why do they restrict all airtravel as they are - after they say they've caught the people?
• 7 - Could the government possibly benefit from making people scared? Will terrorism suddenly become the reason for ID cards again?
It's a matter of mentality. The extreme muslim will stop an nothing.
As an Israeli I would ask you to think twice before condemning Israel's actions. What we are up against is exactly the mentality that you are now forced to face. Deep, deep hatred and a will to inflict suffering with no remorse.
We are at present at war with such people and yet most of the so called enlightened world condemn us, almost by habit.
Perhaps you will now understand what we face are facing.
Time for a very big wake up call.
Tal
The timing of this event is certainly interesting. The Prime Minister flew out on his holidays yesterday and, as previously stated, this new/heighten climate of fear who help the government should a vote of confidence be required around the handling of the current Lebannon/Israel crises.
While the actual perpetrators may have been British born, those who had the original motive, the recruiters, the planners, and everything else about it were imported, freely, unfettered, and largely unchallenged.
My question is, how many people in the US and UK will have to die at their hands before the lives and rights of the vast majority of law abiding citizens takes precedence over the rights of terrorists? How many will have to die before there are no restrictions on fighting back? No limit on the methods used? No nations which can serve as sanctuaries? Realization that the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, the war to destroy Israel, the rise of power of Iran are all part of the same war? Even in the US, many have already forgotten the nightmare that was September 11, 2001. So how many will have to die and how much destruction will we suffer at the hands of Islamic terrorism? The answer is that against this intrepid and cunning enemy, they will inflict as many deaths and destroy as much of our nations as it takes to convince us. And if we fail to adjust our attitudes towards our most cherished notions of fairness and justice in both domestic law and international relations, they will destroy our entire civilization. That is their sworn and stated goal and they are only too eager to sacrifice their lives to achieve it.
1st. Were they members of a terror cell or where they British Born?
These two things are not mutually exclusive.
2nd. Re Tals comments.
So should we now adopt the Israeli response and bomb some innocent civilians? Areas of Birmingham or Bradford are almost entirely Mulsim and are in easy range of our military. Although many innocents would die some 'extreme muslims' would also die which would justify the slaughter. Wouldn't it?
I agree with Tal...there was a window after 7/7 when I think the British finally realised what we are up against but for some reason, following some relative calm - mainly due to the security forces' efforts rather than any lack of intention from the terrorists - the public once again became complacent and even now prefer to play politics in face of this threat. Sadly, Israel understands this only too well, yet the public still play a dangerous blame game. The only way to achieve peace is by standing up to the threat we now face.
When I first heard about the incident I first checked other news sources and then the ´óÏó´«Ã½. I'm suprised even to see use of the word terror in the article. I thought this emotive word was to be avoided. Anyway, whether the ´óÏó´«Ã½ can accurately report this case is going to be interesting considering the failures last year.
In reply to Gavin.. 'Song and dance'! How big a song and dance would people make if they heard about this afterwards. Fore warned is fore armed, what if something had happened or indeed does happen. Everyone would look at the security forces as someone to blame. Extremeism is to blame, terrorists are to blame,
In reply to ED..Get a grip. We need to be scared. Something bad is being planned by bad people. If something happened to a relative or friend of yours, would you say 'it's ok as i wasn't informed'?
I.D cards. Why not. easy identification of people innocent and guilty. Any one not wanting one is eaither hiding something or is jumping on the liberal bandwagon that is destroying this once proud nation. I believe in freedom of choice and human rights. My choice is to be safe and it is also my right!
8. Are these arrests of the same kind of people as the Forest Gate 2, the London Ricin plotters, and Jean Charles de Menezes?
The 'greatest danger' the UK faces is one more day of PM Poodle Blair. The US and the UK are reviled the world over for their ever-worsening policies since 9/11. Both Bush and Blair should be impeached and tried by an international tribunal for war crimes. PDQ.
I'd like to know if the fact that this attack was scheduled for a Thursday is of any significance given certain comments about last year's July 11 terrorism?
Dear God, where did all the Daily Mail readers come from? You've got your own message boards you know...
I cannot understand why the ´óÏó´«Ã½ is using the words "terror"and "terrorists"in this recent news item. The ´óÏó´«Ã½ has refused this epithet for acts against Israel that actually cause mayhem and death. These activities are carried out by "militants"or "guerrillas" if it is against Israel but ´óÏó´«Ã½ allows "terrorist" when it is closer to home.
How cynical!
So we have a 'terror' plot, being investigated by 'anti-terrorism' security forces. But will the ´óÏó´«Ã½ call the people arrested 'alleged terrorists', or will it come up with a new name such as 'liquiders or hand-luggagers' as it did with the so called London 'bombers'? Never mind though, it seems you cannot be British born and still a member of a terror cell. What quality journalism there Daniel.
I've amended the copy above.. I did mean to say 'foreign terror cell'. Apologies.
What poster like tal ginat, Mark, Kev.w and others don't realise is that we are fighting. Fighting to keep our culture, our freedom, our humanity. These are the things that the terrorists are trying to take away from us. If we give them up voluntarily we we do not improve our security - we hand victory to the terrorists.
"Dear God, where did all the Daily Mail readers come from? You've got your own message boards you know..."
Wow, another hilarious comment about Daily Mail readers. The ´óÏó´«Ã½ publishes this because they read the Guardian/Daily Mirror but rejects intelligent logical comments that do not agree with its agenda.
WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THIS TRASH?
Concerning how close were.... #1...
I was wondering and remembering sept, 11; march,11 at Spain...
It make me think that the plot would be executed tomorrow august, 11...
it make sense for someone else?
Joao Wagner - Brazil
i don't understand why terrorists are targeting cabin baggage.
Freight, cargo and luggage that go into the baggage hold are not checked.
Anyone could put a bomb in the hold of an aircraft and not be caught and the device not detected.
I don't really trust this kind of event. Events like this suit the government of the day and I would n't be surprised if it was a government planned exercise designed to keep the terror story going.
Ewan Mac Mahon; What the terrorists are trying to take away from you is your life and your sense that you can go about your daily business reasonably sure you won't be attacked and killed. They want to take your entire country and culture away from you. What you fear losing can be put on hold until the threat is gone but if the terrorists are victorious, you will have lost your precious values along with everything else. We are not stupid, we can suspend civil liberties during a war and restore them afterwards, we've done it in the past and we can do it again.
Brian; for employees of the ´óÏó´«Ã½ like everyone else in this world, militants, guerrillas, and freedom fighters become terrorists when they attack close to home striking fear and terror in their own hearts as they did this time. Is this an example of ´óÏó´«Ã½'s hypocricy? Yes among countless others.
sarah meyer; if fighting back against Islamic terrorists who want to destroy western civilization and defending Israel's right to exist by striking back after being attacked makes me an my country reviled as you say, I am far happier than I would be with the alternative which is submission and surrender. It also lets us know who our friends are....and aren't.
Dear Ewan, I presume when you say the "terrorists are trying to take away from us" you are refering to the UK government, which is rapidly decreasing our freedom and democracy - in line with US policy, also alarmingly decreasing the Bill of Rights and constitutional democracy?
I DO NOT THINK THEY HAVE THE REAL CELL I THINK THEY HAVE A DUMMY CELL THEY WOULD NOT USE 24 PEOPLE THEY
WOULD USE 6 PEOPLE
THAT WOULD NOT BE NONE TO MI5 YOU HAVE TO THINK LIKE THEM THEY WILL LIVE IN SEPTET CITYS
THEY WILL BE SINGLE
THEY WILL NOT HAVE GIRL AND THE SLEEPER CELLS WILL HAVE A CODEING MESSAGES
I'm sorry if this is not an appropriate comment for the questions posed, but as an American, I just want to thank the British Intelligence agencies for their remarkable work. I have a friend trying to get back here to the States tomorrow who will breathe a little easier because of all that you have done. Much admiration for all you do!
If the police had found some explosives, I think the news media would have heard about it by now (1.22 am the next day).
It's looking as if the intelligence services have made another bungled attempt to "protect our freedoms", by arresting people who have no obvious links to terror groups. (I'm speculating, obviously and will possibly be proved wrong fairly soon).
So hundreds of flights are cancelled, the firms of the FTSE 250 have 10 billion pounds wiped off their value, and thousands of tourists are stranded, and why? Because MI5 doesn't have a clue what is going on. You don't need to close down the whole air travel indistry just because 24 people once went on holiday to Pakistan. They could have been quietly taken into custody, without all this fuss and nonsense.
The question you should ask is: How many times is this country going to grind to halt because of the threat of terrorism?
You could say that the ludicrous scenes at Heathrow (where people were having bottles of water confiscated) are evidence that the terrorists are winning without even doing anything.
The attitude of the government and police seems to be "We don't know when there will be an attack, so we may as well let the whole country be needlessly scared. And let's kill the tourist trade while we're at it."
As I've said above and others have agreed, we cannot take this incident purely at face value. It is clearly in the government's interest for such events to happen - it allows them to justify policies such as the National Identity Database and other reductions in our freedom and right to privacy. We've seen time and time again the 'security services' mess up things, from shooting an innocent guy, to the so-called ricin plots, to forest gate, to red mercury etc.
Are the government trying to scare people? To terrorise people?
Of course this could be exactly what it seems.
"Cups of Tea and Cucumber Sandwiches Blog": Your apparent claim that all cargo/ luggage goes into aircraft holds unchecked is simply not true. Why do you think in the current "alert" people are being told to put everything into hold luggage? They'd hardly do that if it all went through without being screened in some way.
Duncan said: "Dear God, where did all these Daily Mail readers come from...?"; a perfect example of the blindness in this country. Apparently you're right wing if you believe that the country should face up to the huge global threat of Islamic fundamentalism; I wonder if you'd have said the same in the 1930s...appease at your peril. You should be thanking that you live in a democracy with a government that wants to protect you rather than cynically assume there's some sort of conspiracy and childishly brand anybody with good sense a Daily Mail reader...
What kind of world are we living in. I have 2 3yr old daughters. All i want is for them to be safe and happy. Everyone is very quick to 'blame' either government, security services the forces for fighting back. We need to stop being so liberal in all aspects of the way this country is being run. We have lost our identity and control over what is happening to our country. Too many people now see the UK as an easy option. What has and is happening with the recent threat is not scare mongering or the goverment trying to get votes. It is real. We need to stop these people. Can any one explain in plain simple words why these idiots feel they have the right to kill inocent people?
´óÏó´«Ã½ & other channels keep saying x # of civilians killed in this blast by israel & so on.
How does anyone differentiate between A civilian & a hisbulian.
you show a man holding a child & crying ,& he is a poor civilian,
the moment you turn your camera away,he throws the child away, & he becomes A hisbulian.
Britons and Americans need to concentrate on why we are a target and why we are hated. Then we must punish those politicians who have made us a target.
The solution is to deal fairly with other countries and try to make amends for the mess we have created in the Middle East since World War Two. In the internet-age people know what is going on. They spot any lies, double-dealing and unfairness. It must stop.
This is the only answer. If a device can be as small as half a pack of cigarettes and triggered by a watch, what is to stop a suicide bomber taking it on board a plane inside his/her body in the same way that drugs are smuggled?
Q: How is the police going to prove that this disruption was indeed worthwhile?
Q: Shouldn't the police prove that something was indeed happening and something was really scheduled to happen?
Q: Can't airline companies claim compensation from the security services for the fall of their shares (if nothing is actually proved) ?
Q: Can't passengers claim compensation for the disruption if nothing is actually proved?
Well said Duncan Hothersall, go away Daily Mail readers you right wing viewpoints are not welcome here - this is the ´óÏó´«Ã½ where only left wing viewpoints are allowed.
I am being sarcastic of course, who is Duncan to say who can and can't comment here. Are Daily Mail readers to be considered less worthy of having views because they have a different viewpoint to him?
Some of the viewpoints I have seen on the ´óÏó´«Ã½ site have been more Daily Mirror then Daily Mail (left wing but ill thought out!) but that doesn't mean people are not entitled to that viewpoint.
I would like to ask why the ´óÏó´«Ã½ are not giving us details about who has been arrested. I can find such details on many other web sites and newspapers, but not on the ´óÏó´«Ã½. As usual, the ´óÏó´«Ã½ avoids the M word. I can understand that you do not want to paint all Muslims as terrorosits, but the simple fact is that most terrorists are Muslims.
I agree with Tal from Israel. I fear the UK and US haven't the faintest idea of the scale of what they (and the rest of the world) are facing. Most of the postings by Westerners scratch the surface and do not look at the deeper side of this great evil plan to terrorise the world, using fear and uncertainty as a potent weapon. Once they can get the UK and US, the rest of the world becomes dead meat. People are so enamored with freedom and rights for terrorists they forget the basic survival rules. Everyone is careful about offending Muslims these days but we can offend Christians, Hindus, Buddhist, animists etc because they have not started blowing up people, houses and planes. Why don't we get problems from Hindus? Or Buddhists? Or even Christians and animists? Why must the world tremble because of extremist Islam? If the West must survive, then the gloves must come off NOW.
What puzzles me about the government's airport shenanegans is this: the plotters have apparently been under surveillance for several months so the authorities must have been well aware of the threat level. Yesterday they arrested two dozen suspects and simultaneously increased the threat level. Wasn't the purpose of rounding up the suspected suicide bombers to reduce the threat? Shouldn't the security precautions have been quietly stepped up a long time ago?
The Government's panic action smacks of the "we must be seen to be doing something" syndrome. And if there are terrorists with explosive liquids waiting in chaotic air terminals, why can't they blow themselves up there and then? Might it not be better to get passengers away as quickly as possible?
NIK
How do you want the police to react to these threats. So what if nothing was going to happen, would you rather it did and then slate the police then for doing nothing? As for compensation. Is money more important to you than the lives of innocents? Your family and friends would perhahps think not should it have been them that were spread across the Atlantic. We need to stop blaming and looking for compensation. The police should be applauded not ridiculed. If nothing happens its through their hard work and vigilance.
Does this amount to Operation Northwoods style calumny to expand the war?
According to the Mi5 website, an attack is 'expected imminently'. Will we look at the same culprits as 7/7. British intelligence?
#25: Everyone knows that airports employ hundreds of people to go through luggage, removing valuable and/or explosive items. Thanks heavens for baggage handlers.
Of course it depends where in the UK is impacted by these "terrorist" incidents whether the media deems them fit to cover.
Take the events in Newry on Wednesday - 6 substantial retail premises destroyed in a terrorist fire bombing attack. The UK media's response? A brief mention on the Six O'clock News
I'm sure if the same thing happen in the South East of England we'd get three days of wall to wall coverage, with Huw Edwards hosting the evening news in front of the smouldering remains.
But, the media bleat, it's different in Northern Ireland....
I do not believe that discussing our liberties should be an issue...
A simple analogy would be this.. imagine our country was divided into 2 sections would you be "safer" in,
a)the section where people divulged all information concerning terrorism or b)the section that didnt...
Now many people will see my next point as an attack but it is simply my view...
I would say that i am a cultured individual and have been raised as a member of a "minority" (asian) religion in this country. And as i see it religion is a method of establishing beliefs and values to uphold, but it is up to the individual to pick and choose which of these as beneficial.
Now something fundementally wrong is occuring in the muslim "teachings" if one of these "choices" is to commit murder!.. and these lessons are taking place in our own country.. and upheld by people who have never been directly affected by war..
I believe that we all have a right to be safe..
From personal experience i have had close friends (of british nationality) who have drastically changed after going to university.. they have had hatred installed in them.. and the only place that this could be coming from is at the mosque.. which in some way is being promoted... to encourage unity to the religion..
Many many many people from other Asian religions will agree that somehow many of the next generation of muslims are becoming more "fanatical" to their "religion" than their parents..
I say that the government should have powers to monitor ALL religious centres and the goings on within... and that as a community we should help this at all costs even if it means sacrificing some of our liberty it is surely better than sacrificing our lives.. i would also like to point out that this is a point of great concern and should be acted on.. even if the british intelligence are again inaccurate..
With hindsight and the events of Wednesday night/Thursday morning, am I the only person to doubt the official reason given for Tony Blair postponing flying off to wherever he's holidaying ?
I don't think he would have wanted to fly the Atlantic knowing of an imminent terrorist plan without first dealing with it.
Particularly as no apparent progress has been made with the Irael/Lebanon ceasefire until today.
My original post regarding screening of baggage in the hold and cargo/freight on commercial aircraft was answered by Jakester:
>>>Your apparent claim that all cargo/ luggage that goes into aircraft holds unchecked is simply not true.>>>
I'm afraid it is true. Cargo and Freight are virtually never screened for explosives.
Hold baggage is randomly checked by sniffer dogs. The Pan Am Lockerbie disaster was caused by a bomb the size of a radio in the luggage hold.
Jakester wrote: "Cups of Tea and Cucumber Sandwiches Blog": Your apparent claim that all cargo/ luggage goes into aircraft holds unchecked is simply not true. Why do you think in the current "alert" people are being told to put everything into hold luggage? They'd hardly do that if it all went through without being screened in some way.
My guess would be that the reason is that it is believed that hold baggage is safe because none flies unless it's owner is onboard too. And it has been X-rayed. You know, the measures put in place after an unaccompanied bomb caused the Lockerbie atrocity. Oh, wait. Suicide bombers don't mind if thir bag in the hold blows them out of the sky. And if everyone's electronics now have to go in the hold, and mobile phones make perfect timers or remote controls, and explosive can now look like make-up pastes and potions, it sounds like X-ray examinations could easily miss the crucial bag. Ummm. Maybe someone didn't join up the thinking. Or maybe it's for show.
Western nations are soft bellied targets - Muslim extremists are hard and focused and only need small numbers as shown since 9/11. Iraq, Afganistan etc are not needed for their recruitment or motivation (as demonstarted by 9/11). Sooner or later they will have nuclear devices.
We need to employ every means to hit them hard everywhere with as ruthless a focus as they show. We need to harness our inginuity and resources but currently we are rellying on government agencies - how efficient as they at running anything else ? Unfortunately I beleive the only hope is to bring in an element of private enterprise - momey, power, glory and success, as in the days when we were militarily strong, remembering that even heros such as Nelson were motiveted in there careers by oportunity, prize money, public recoginition, power and glory !
THE PEOPLE MORE PUT BLAME ON INTELIGINCE AND TALK ABOUT FREEDOM ,COMMUNITY ALL THEY GONNA SUFFER
Questions? I've got four:
Why would a senior police officer describe the destruction of a fully loaded airliner, even one over a city, as "unimaginable", when clearly not only has it been imagined many times, but it has, unfortunately, been done? Why are our police so mentally crippled?
Why would the President of the US demonise Islam so deliberately as he did the same day? "Islamo fascists"! On the same day as one of his own supporters is doing the rounds saying that most suicide bombers are not doing it for religion but to fight back against occupation or weapons of war. Does the man really wish to be a war president of a war on all muslims?
How would ID cards, as legislated, have had any beneficial effect on this incident?
These "mix in an airline cabin" explosives this is supposed to be all about. Just which ones are they supposed to be? And if they exist, how come they've never been used before? After all, what a great "fail safe" concept; no worries about blowing oneself up mixing them before hand, don't need to be careful or skilled, blowing oneself up whichever way would be just the same, once up in the air.
OK, Pan Am/Lockerbie was caused by something small. Very powerful, and small. But it was solid, not liquid, and it was not self-brewed in an airplane toilet using an energy drink as one of the possible components, right? Can somebody competent please explain how powerful something based on these liquids we are talking about can really be, and how much harm it can do inside an aircraft cabin? Because until then I will find it hard to imagine how this could have been done, other than having a lot of smoke and some damage in the cabin, and maybe even a hole in the wall, but we've seen aircraft with holes and even seats ripped off, and still flying.
Also, I think all of this they are doing now to limit what passengers can do is not effective in the long run. If something is as small as a radio you can implant it into a fat man's belly, and sooner or later we will have to deal with implanted explosives (powerful and small).
I think we will move more towards checking identity, reputation and trust. Yes, national IDs and biometrics are here to stay I think. And there will be different levels of trusted passengers, who may or may not be able to carry certain dangerous items such as a book. And maybe we will have to (be able to) pay for extra screening if we want to carry something (outside of our bodies, that is).
Next thing, being born here or there... Difficult to deal with this, with racism, religions, etc. It just strikes me however that the friends of last year's terrorists didn't even speak proper English on TV, and that in this year's group no one has an English first or last name. Why is it so difficult for the ´óÏó´«Ã½ or people to say this aloud? This is what everybody thinks, yet the media just seem to focus on where people were born. More politically correct, I guess.
Just my two (euro) cents...
On terrorism, How about the terror of not eating a meal three times a day? how about people who had no choice but do what is necessary? Laws and judgements are sometimes are the cause of terrorism! But much worse if they will fall in the hands of the lawless people!
Arrogance and blinded by the facts of reality is dangerous. Self serving and self preservations is the consequence, which is far more dangerous.
The words becomes flesh...
Fridays show with Kirsty's interview with Douglas Alexander was interesting. Why did he refuse to connect the current difficulties with the coalition's invasion of Iraq? She asked him twice... and he just couldn't accept it when its as clear as the nose on his face. When you see these dreadful images of children and other innocents being pulled out of the rubble (god bless their gentle souls)...we need to know these are our children too... and we are in our actions creating the next generation of martyrs. Love and Peace
Let us not forget that it was the Muslim community that notified the Police months ago, about these people that is why surveillence was set up. So i disagree with some of the comments on here that the relevant communities are not doing enough.
Marcus said - "Duncan said: "Dear God, where did all these Daily Mail readers come from...?"; a perfect example of the blindness in this country. Apparently you're right wing if you believe that the country should face up to the huge global threat of Islamic fundamentalism; I wonder if you'd have said the same in the 1930s...appease at your peril. You should be thanking that you live in a democracy with a government that wants to protect you rather than cynically assume there's some sort of conspiracy and childishly brand anybody with good sense a Daily Mail reader..."
Isn't it even a little ironic, in the face of your comments, that The Daily Mail was the paper which supported fascism in the 1930s? If anyone was for appeasing that nice Mr Hitler it was the Mail. How short is memory.
For quite some time only more theological descriptions of think & believe have been stated to the public. Is there any further forensic evidence be it on the IT or the chemical side?
In case of such serious allegations at least the chemical trail of the would be explosives should ´ve been detected. Obviously a more technical approach than use of buzzwords is needed to deal with this case.
Best Regards
Fritz