大象传媒

As a junior coalition partner, and with a starting point skewed by narrow victories on the last regional seats last time, this is a challenging election for Plaid to put it mildly.

Compare and contrast the polictical relationship Labour in Wales enjoyed with Plaid and the outright hostility shown by Scottish Labour to the SNP. Blood and snottirs come to mind.

Also compare and contrast that once again Scots are being prevented from commenting on important election issues at 大象传媒 Scotland political blogs. Once more we have the infamous BWB - "This entry is now closed for comments"

"At what point though, do the attacks get so aggressive that co-operation in government is in jeopardy after the election? We're probably not there yet"

I beg to differ, Betsan, I think that Plaid have already crossed the line between justifiable criticism of Labour in the coalition and nasty demolition. How exactly do you jump back into bed with the party that you have called useless and devoid of ideas?

Plaid have chosen to attack Labour's record on Education.....well Ok, but the failure in our schools was because we decided to stop closely scrutinising the performance of schools and teachers and pupils by such devices as SAT tests and league tables. Not only Labour but also Plaid were in favour of just trusting teachers to do their jobs without much scrutiny. Estyn have only just got round to moderating KS assesments between schools.

Plaid are back in the old groove of promising money for this and protecting funding for that but not quite costing the promises because they won't ever have to come up with the goods.

A Laptop for every child I say!! That should be a vote winner.

Wither Plaid?

VOTE PLAID...GET TORY?

A party needs to be in a strong or lead position to benefit from forming a coalition. The LibDems had their fingers burned in Cardiff and big time at Westminster.

The SNP waited until it had sufficient strength to form a minority government, which the unionist parties in Scotland were terrified of challenging. It also has superb leaders.

Imo, Plaid erred. Will it make the same mistake twice? It wouldn't surprise me. It might even make a worse mistake.

Plaid's left which, with the aid of Kirsty Williams, scuppered the proposed 'rainbow alliance' last time around, will do the same again; leaving a weak leadership no alternative but One Wales II or opposition.

The problem being that there are still Plaid AMs and others of influence in the party who believe A) that they are socialists and b) (even funnier) so is Labour! Then there's a whole raft of issues where the two genuinely agree, such as covering Wales in wind turbines no matter how useless and expensive these things are being proven to be.

Like many other I increasingly believe that a time of reflection and re-evaluation of its core values, plus a change of leader, is what Plaid needs before the next elections.

"How exactly do you jump back into bed with the party that you have called useless and devoid of ideas?"

Obviously Labour hope to gain enough of a majority to govern alone. But if they don't, who else but Plaid are they going to have a coalition with?

Well alunapgwilym,

As if to confuse matters even more, there was much talk in Cardiff over the weekend, when potential Labour voters were practically insisting that they would vote Labour only if they could be "promised" that Plaid would not be involved in any coalition.

This "promise" was also being insisted upon by would-be Conservative voters, who it seems were also insisting on no deal with Plaid.

However, I am still of the opinion that Labour, with a majority of one or two could still comfortably operate on their own. Well could you ever see The Conservatives, Plaid Cymru, the Lib-Dems, (and any minor parties who got lucky), all combining to defeat Labour ?

Me? I'd vote for either of the major parties as long as they promised not to let Plaid in on the act.I may be daft, but certainly not daft enough to want a stand alone totally independent Wales, which Plaid now admits to being their ultimate aim.

#7

Do you live in a stand-alone totally independent UK? That's UKIP's dream, out of the EU and back to England's glory days of empire, which really meant making a mess of the world. A lot of Tories would love that too.

What's the problem with people wanting to run their own country? Some 200 nations do it - they would all tell you where to go if you suggested they shouldn't. Plaid wants Wales to be a full member of the EU and of the UN, and to be a positive influence in the world, not getting engaged in a series of wars one after another.

Wales has been run abysmally badly as part of the UK, and its getting worse, and destined to get much worse. We're now being run by a bunch of multi-millionaires who don't really have a clue as to how ordinary people have to manage day-to-day, living hand-to-mouth.

Before that we had a clueless bunch who got the UK into two unnecessary wars costing a fortune and brought the economy to the brink of bankruptcy. The Tories might just clinch it by cutting too far too fast and the IMF will be taking over. Those are your 'major' parties. Anything but letting the people of Wales make decisions for themselves. What an attitude!

Personally, I think the writing is on the wall for the UK. Let's see what our Scottish cousins decide next month - they're getting a taste for power. They're waking up fast to the raw deal they've been having from London.

To quote M8; "Personally, I think the writing is on the wall for the UK. Let's see what our Scottish cousins decide next month - they're getting a taste for power. They're waking up fast to the raw deal they've been having from London. "

I suppose that's why the 1000 or so voteres polled, rated the SNP's independence plans low down the list of priorities in the forthcoming election (22 out of 25 ? Its a 大象传媒 story anyway).
I suppose the standard nat reply is that the polls are only accurate when they agree with the findings !
Independence, the subject everyone is not talking about !!

What Scotland has got is some dynamic and charismatic leadership in the SNP. Labour, in Scotland and Wales loks tired and lacking in determination.

The difference is that no one would call the Plaid leadership charismatic. As for dynamic....they show plenty of passion and energy for core objectives but those objectives are "Culture and Language Nationalist" issues. More independence through devolution.....new Welsh Language act.....Commissioner to protect Welsh speakers from "injustice".....more use of the Language......more money for Welsh Medium schools (how much capital expenditure is it now?)....More money for Ysgolion Feithrin......More money for the Urdd....More money for Eisteddfodau......and through the Welsh Language board....More money for Merched Y Wawr......RHAG (parents for Welsh medium schools)......Mentrau Iaith.....the list goes on and on.

There is a level at which voters are aware that Plaid is for only one section of Welsh society. It's fine in pre-election mode to make plans for ALL of Wales, but in Government? The bargaining will be around Plaid Core Objectives.....Culture and Language Nationalism at any cost...with any party...."Socialist" or reactionary!

VOTE PLAID, GET TORY!!!

There is more to politics in Wales than Betsan's "tactics or strategy", there is the pragmatic way of minority politics ...

... less governance, the promotion of personal responsibility, and the liberal conservative traditions of Wales.

It is only necessary to have an insurmountable majority when it is the intention to impose radical measures upon the population, following on from the financial crisis which was both commercial, public, and private in nature, the vast majority of those countries affected are tackling their deficits. In the UK, and by definition Wales, the government in coalition, the insurmountable majority, has decided the vast public sector consumes a too-great a proportion of national income, thus requires cutting to be sustainable, affordable only when we "cut [y]our cloth according to [y]our means".

In Wales the budget cuts are manageable, and the Labour Party are able to manage as a family who had its income drop by 5% in the last year just through a pay freeze, as has happened for the last three years in some sectors, the public sector might contemplate the effect a 12% cut in pay has. And politically the Labour Party could manage these difficult times by concentrating its efforts on budget management not political rhetoric, and I would be surprised if it could not co-opt other Assembly members in its concentration.

My hope for the Labour Party, when it has the greatest share of the votes, is for it to "get on with governance", be managers for a few years, it's what the voters are hoping for, the radical days of the 18th and 19th century are long gone, we are all sitting in the [comfortable] middle ground .....

11."My hope for the Labour Party, when it has the greatest share of the votes, is for it to "get on with governance", be managers for a few years, it's what the voters are hoping for, the radical days of the 18th and 19th century are long gone, we are all sitting in the [comfortable] middle ground ....."

YES!! Competence and the energy to govern consistently is what we need in the next term. I dpn't care a fig if Labour don't come up with a single new policy or a single catchy soundbite....I want to see commitment to making things WORK in Wales...for EVERYONE not just a cultural elite.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#10

You've certainly got an issue with the Welsh Language, out of all proportion. Sad really.

It comes as a no "surprise" that clearly large segments of both old Labour and Plaid Cymru basically loath each other as their basic "interests" are completely opposite to each other. In reading Paul Flynn's book it becomes clearl that there is now a sizeable part of Llafur that is more attuned to PC,than the mainly english language/working class base that was old labour. The attitudes and policies of both King Rhodri and Prince Carwyn seem to be part of the group that is favourable to PC,and keen to push the "welshification" process as outlined in 10. Plainly this process is going to have to play out in wales,however the long term aims of most english speaking only people in eastern wales are going to be subordinated to the most regressive social engineering process seen is supposed democratic country.As was said on 大象传媒 Cymru during a phone in programme there has been a COUP in wales by people who wish to see a seperation,if not totally of wales from the UK,which they mean england. The creation of Assembly was part of this process,and the current LIE that it can protect welsh people from economic reality must be exposed sooner than later.

Beware 大象传媒 polls during these election campaigns.

The 大象传媒 Scotland poll on Scottish voters attitudes to the party manifesto promises turns out to be a fraud.

Only questions referencing Scottish Labour party manifesto commitments were posed, the other questions were based on previous policy positions of the SNP, LibDems, the Tories and the Scottish Greens. The SNP and the Scottish Greens have yet to publish their manifestos. Labour, Tory and LibDem manifestos were published when polling was being conducted.

This poll has raised serious questions about 大象传媒 Scotland's impartiality in this election.

How did 大象传媒 Scotland come to frame poll questions on unpublished Labour manifesto proposals? Why did 大象传媒 Scotland not conduct this poll after all the main parties had published their manifestos? Why did 大象传媒 Scotland initially trail this poll as being based on all the parties manifestos when it clearly knew that this was not true?

As I said, beware 大象传媒 polls during these election campaigns. There could be one winging its way to Wales as we speak.

For someone who has turned non-partisan in the last few years some of the comments on this blog get on my nerves. one of the contributers (if you can actually call them that) seems to use this blog as some sort of anti-Welsh platform while another uses Welsh words as some sort of form of criticism. a vote for Plaid getting Wales independence is as likely as getting socialism when you vote Labour so why not get that massive chip off your shoulder and go and discuss your 'politics' on some far right or UkIP blog. lets make this blog about talking real politics - Is it best we vote Labour in order to better manage Wales or shall we just let them continue with what people believe is them turning Wales into a third world country. Are plaid the only party with a proper vision for making wales better or do they have to start growing up and taking responsibility for the mess theyve made over the past 4 years? Is it time for a Tory Party that have great individual AM's and a change to the mind-numbing status quo of the last 80 years or are they infact complete idiots with not a care in the world for the public sector and charities whose plans will realign to Westminster and cuts cuts cuts or will it be the Lib Dems a sensible non nat party to soften the rubbish of a Labour led coalition, a party with few members but effective members or are they a complete waste of time and like their party in London a u-turning duplicitous home for undecideds who wouldnt know liberalism if it came up to them in one of their 5 man conferences and said 'hello i'm liberalism'. look lets talk politics and see how we get on from there ok? you may even enjoy it.......

@ 17 theRooster

indeed....
and the term 'anti-Welsh' is getting on the nerves of many of us as well! Is it really anti-Welsh for someone who is Welsh to point out the culture and language obsession of Plaid Cymru, as Sedwot has done in #10 (which I presume is what has got you upset). After all, maybe it is Plaid who are 'anti-Welsh' due to their constant pursuit of culture and language only relevant to a minority. Maybe they are 'anti' the rest of us who simply want our education, health service and economy on a par with or better than England's but couldnt give two hoots about Iolo Morgannwg and what he dreamt up whilst strung out on Laudanum in Primrose hill.

I find Plaid's manifesto and its other aims somewhat at odds. Why do they want to revise the Barnet Formula and at the same time leave the UK? Mutually exclusive I'd have thought. This odd notion of just waltzing into the EU and by-passing all the admission criteria required of other applicant nations is plain naive. The last thing the EU wants (particularly the Germans) is another small country with a begging bowl. And as for the education commitment, how is this to be measured? By more egalitarian claptrap? Or geniune assessments which won't mean that the PISA results come as an unpleasant suprise. I suppose watching that particular space will be the equivalent of watching paint dry.

Re 18

However you choose to describe, define or excuse them, comeoffit, there is no way anyone can deny that such comments are worryingly hateful (as well as being irrational). The 1930's were years of irrational thought and ranting also - 'a low dishonest decade' as Auden put it - let us all avoid using such fanatical, and yes, irrational language.

#18

I estimate, after reading them, that some 80%-90% of your comments refer to the Welsh Language in some derogatory way. Can we therefore conclude that you are anti- the Welsh Language? However one looks at it you seem to be obsessed by the subject. As I said above of your similarly-minded colleague, 'Sad'.

This blog is about politics primarily. All too often it is hijacked by a tiny number of anti-Language contributors as a forum for an anti-Welsh rant. Most of us are, like #17, sick and tired of it. It turns off many potential contributors who from time to time have so said - including, if my memory serves me correctly, the blog owner herself.

All four parties in Wales, in the Assembly and at Westminster, are supportive of the Welsh Language and the educational policies being pursued in regard of it. It is not a political issue. Even the debate over the recent Language Measure was only concerned that an undue burden not be put on businesses to their disadvantage. Otherwise all the parties wish to see the Language thrive and no longer be threatened by terminal decline. That sentiment has wide public support. An increasing number of parents, many of them non-Welsh speakers, are electing to send their children to Welsh-medium schools. That too, is seen as a welcome development.

So, please, can we get on with disussing the blog topics?

okey dokey, ignore my anti-Welsh comment Mr Offit and lets ask Betsan nicely if she can write a blog just about the language for you and your mates to pontificate about and quite rightly so, discuss. everybody else who wants to talk about other things to do with politics i.e everything except the Welsh language because that will be discussed in Betsans blog about the Welsh language shall look out carefully for other blogs by Betsan to do with those subjects. there! thats nice, I await red penned replies ignoring this and talking about language with eager anticipation.
Now then did anybody see that some elephant is being dug up in a pub.......

The 大象传媒 are flogging this election to death! Some of the presenters are so high and excited that they must be in danger of wetting themselves.
I am thoroughly sick of it already. We are all capable of making our own minds up. We don't want all this prompting from the 大象传媒. They'll be telling us who to vote for next !
Please give it a rest!

M18. Well said! comeoffit

Do you REALLY think that you can talk politics in Wales without talking about the "Language and Culture Nationalism" that is at the heart of Plaid?

I suppose that Plaid supporters would quite like everyone to ignore the divisive nature of their Ideological outlook.

As for the other parties, I agree they are all supine in the face of "the Language thing" but should they be? It's time that those gutless AM's who are petrified that their offices will be daubed by those Aerosoles in Cymdeithas Yr Iaith actually voiced some concern about the loss of job opportunities for non-Welsh speakers in Wales.

#24

You obviously can't, you obsess about it interminably, and inflict it on all of us. Try setting up your own anti-Language party and see what support you get and let the rest of us get on with discussing the blog topics in the run-up to the elections.

Re 24

Oh well, clearly we are making no progress here. Auden also heard 'all the dogs of Europe bark'. We have our own very loud barkers, unhappy, it seems, at the presence of minorities like Welsh speakers...or...or...or...................

The 'Ambition is critical' misquote is a bit embarrassing. The web is a wonderful resource, once you have learnt the art of cross-referencing and going back to first principles And being sure your hunch is the right one. The intention behind the quote is a good one.

#17

Good post.

The language side is always hard. I am a 'lifelong learner' who is utterly bemused by the hatred directed towards Welsh by some in this blog. Self restraint in using any Welsh worlds is probably called for (and almost universally upheld) in order to prevent the flames of prejudice being further fanned.

There are some alarming examples of language hate here today. If they were directed at other groups in Britain, it would not only be the moderators who ought to be concerned.

The good news is that by restricting their lives to blogs, the rest of Wales gets on with life, voting every decade or so for more self governance and the prospect of a new dawn where we no longer need to blame others.

And then there's this;



As you can see that nasty little political bed-hopper Ron Davies can't keep the viciousness out of his campaign. Was Betsan saying that the line hadn't been crossed?

How exactly are these Plaid AM's going to sit alongside Labour colleagues in Government? I take it that the "Thoroughbred" Ron ( By Labour out of Forward Wales) Davies expects a Cabinet position.

24. SEDWOT. Thank you for your contributions which are apt,and plainly too close to the TRUTH for our welsh speaking fraternity who seem to wish to extinguish discussion about public policy on matters pertaining to what is a pretty unimportant topic to the vast majority of english speakers. Following the threat to in effect "killhimself" by Gwynfor Evans MP,who was famous for his contribution to war effort in defeating Hitler/Hirohito,we had creation of S4C which has proved to be the greatest non-event at cost over one billion pounds,and counting and they are still not satisfied. We have had creation of Assembly and results to say least not. wonderful,particularly education and still not satisfied.There will come a time shortly when english only speakers will get a "champion",who will seek to put our interests,particularly in education first and leave the NATS to fund their own schools for minority interests. We are collectively now "governed" by fantasists,who think that little wales can somehow forge a seperate entity(paid for others),whilst the reality is that we are going down hill fast. Even in sport the welsh rugby team is now 9/10thin world(outof 15),and socccer team 155th,and not as good as Blackpool FC. The whole of BBc /S4C is partof the "nation building" exercise,however can we not start up an organization in wales to celebrate the "greatness" of english only speakers,however we wont need to "sill robes",and big pavillion,subsidised the vast majority!!

#29 excellent post - exactly what we should be discussing
#30 please put away the red crayon before you choke on it

As a casual observer to this site, who bobs in and out to catch a glimpse of what particular talking points are abroad in the Welsh political debate, the present debate on 鈥淲elshness鈥� and language brings to mind the words of Alexander Cordell.

鈥淪trange is my country 鈥� the people are either afire 鈥� harp-Welsh people and dying to prove it, or Welsh to their toes and dying to forget it; slipping and sliding and whispering about being English 鈥� Irish, Scottish 鈥� anything will do. Lucky those people are few, but we鈥檝e got them. And God knows what Wales has done to put up with them.鈥�

Hosts of Rebecca 1960 PP.129-130

No 17 - I totally agree with you. There are clearly many supporters (and possibly members) of the BNP and UKIP who inhabit this board.

On this page we have TellingmewhatIknowalready who only last week talked darkly about the 鈥渓ifestyles of the latin south of Europe鈥�.

I gave him the opportunity to explain this outrageous comment but there was no reply.

But let me give you this opportunity again TellingmewhatIknowalready (and others who use nationalist and aggressive anti-Welsh language statements on this board like SEDWOT and merthyrmarkf ) to show how un-nationalistic they really are. Would they all agree with me that a bilingual Wales, looking after its own internal affairs as part of a United Kingdom that is part of a strong federal European Union is clearly the ideal for any anti-nationalist and also agree that the parties that espouse the UK leaving our brothers and sisters in the EU (UKIP and the BNP) are just small-minded extreme nationalists who should be given short shrift by the electorate on May 5th?

Anyone who is truly open minded surly has nothing to disagree with there?

@rushrushrush

'a bilingual Wales'

Wales isnt bilingual! Only 12% are fully fluent and that's before you explore the differences between north and South Wales Welsh.

Making Wales bilingual would take a massive and almost incomprehensibly expenisive social engineering project... and what would it actually achieve other than create division. It is the social engineering through every stealth means possible that I object to... not the language itself.

As for trying to link anyone who voices concern over language/culture obsession to the BNP.... that's pretty peverse and low! I'm from Welsh speaking stock and have voted Labour at every chance I've had.

No 34 - Here we go again more lies about the Welsh language (12%????), more talk about "the differences between north and South Wales Welsh" and more nonsense about the purported "social engineering project" that is to any rational person clearly not happening in Wales.

Your extemism is amply stated in your frankly bizarre urging of people to "explore the differences between north and South Wales Welsh". Is that what you do in your spare time?

So clearly Comeofit you sadly cannot even subscribe to a bilingual Wales, looking after its own internal affairs as part of a United Kingdom that is part of a strong federal European Union is clearly the ideal for any anti-nationalist and also agree that the parties that espouse the UK leaving our brothers and sisters in the EU (UKIP and the BNP) are just small-minded extreme nationalists who should be given short shrift by the electorate on May 5th?

Once again this blog descends into pointless anti Welsh language rants, fuelled by lies and half truths.

Any chance we can move away from this frankly pathological obsession and discuss the real issues?

#34 wrote:

'...have voted Labour at every chance I've had.'

I'm sure the Labour Party is really pleased it's got supporters like you. I haven't got much to say for it since it lost its ideals and principles years ago, but I believe it's never been neo-racist.

This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain.

33. As far as I am aware both the BNP and UKIP and are legal political parties,like the Communist Party and electors are FREE to vote for them if they wish,however I get the feeling that you are not "happy" if people exercise their freedom within the law. Your last paragraph (Except for strongUK) is something that I profoundly disagree with as I personally see no need for bi-lingualism in little Wales,as we can all speak english thank you very much. You might not like it,but its part of freedom to exercise independant thought,within the Law. At least I'm not defacing bi-lingual signs,or burning other people's homes!!!. We will have to see the long term impact that devolution is going to have on wales and the rest of UK,however in my humble opinion we will move for demographic/cultural reasons to a semi-socialist world of theoretical equality,with a certain section being more equal than others. If you have third-raters who are happy and relatively"rich" in charge and a compliant media,and in particular 大象传媒 CYmru/S4C in support of "nation building" then the prospects for the many aint good,and thankfully both my children have left this unhappy part of the world. I am old enough to have voted YES during the referendum on the UK staying on "amended" terms in 1970's,however in those days it was called the European Economic Community,which had free trade,following success of integration of mainly German/French economies in 1950's following second world war. The "exact" level if intergration was allways a controversial issue,however the late great Enoch Powell actually read the Treaty of Rome 1956 and he forecast the current mess that we are in,with our continental friends which in my opinion we should get out of immediately. The creation of EURO.which in theory was needed,however has created the situation that one Adolf Hitler foresaw in Germany had won the second world war,with Germany in effect totally dominating the continent due to its size/position and industrial brilliance.Read Roger Bootle in Monday's telegraph fro full exposure of where we are. You might not like it by the Protestant work ethic (as was),and mainly found in Germany/UK/Holland/Northern france and italywas the foundation of economic growth,whereas peripheral countries,like Greece/Portugal/Spain/Southern Italy/Douthern France were backwaters. Trying to run this from a "centre" is almost impossible,and shortly certain counties like Greece/Portugal will be forced out of EURO,because they cannot put up with proper cuts of expenditure needed to get German money. Its called ECONOMICS and not POLITICS,or even nation buildi

So Bryn teilo is free to directly call me a 'neo-racist' for questioning the wisdom and worth of pursuing language and culture above all else... but I'm not allowed to allowed to point out that perhaps the following are neo-racist:


-making it compulsory for Local authorities in South Wales to survey the appetite amongst parents for Welsh medium education whilst not operating a similar scheme in Gwynedd and Ceredigion for English Medium

- attacking Edwina Hart for her inability to speak Welsh during her campaign to be first minister... therefore making it patently obvious that a non Welsh speaking first minister willl never again be acceptable and 80% of us need not apply.

Thanks very much Moderators! So personal libelous insults are acceptable but any questioning of the establishment must be censored. Welcome to modern Wales post devolution!

#34
12% fully fluent in Welsh

#40
80% not fully fluent in Welsh or 20% are fully fluent

Sorry to be a pain but there is a 60% difference berween the two figures

Another sad case of 'never let the facts get in the way of a rant'

12%= Welsh language board figure for full fluency and written ability

20% = I apologise it should be 21% and comes from the last census for "one or more skills in the Welsh language" and is not an indication of full fluency.


Any more pedantic questions? Does it really alter anything? Would an extra 5% really make it fair that Welsh speakers moving to Cardiff to take up a job at the Welsh Assembly or associated QUANGOs can demand Welsh medium education for their children but if I move to Gwynedd my kids are going to a Welsh medium school and there is no choice about it!

No 39 TellingmewhatIknowalready - you have showed amply your nationalist credentials for everybody. Thank you. Bi-lingualism, the EU (whose aims you associate with Adolf Hitler ) and Catholic countries are all bad but that revolting failure Enoch Powell you dub as "Great"!

As for the BNP and UKIP being legal. Yes they are but so was the BUF in the 30s and like the BUF it should be for all democrats to join together and show these parties who pollute the debate with scare stories about immigrants and minorities - with Koran burning (BNP candidates in Swansea) and leafleats (from UKIP) lying about "uncontrolled immigration" - that they are not and never will be representative of the true bilingual and multicultural Wales.

This has just gone way beyond boring. When you're in the pub having to listen to the local obsessive or bore or someone with a McCain-sized chip on his shoulder ranting on and on and on, you at least have your pint!!

Re M33, 35, 43, I'm not sure which part of these rantings I'm suppose to reply too. I've not mentioned the welsh in this blog (I don't think) as it is irrelevant. If you want my opinion it is a wasteful, backward, minority hobby language, but if the majority of the people of Wales can't be bothered to complain about it, I certainly won't bother !

Re 45

Salt AND vinegar on your chips merthyrmarkf?

"No 34 - Here we go again more lies about the Welsh language (12%????),"

If you wer'nt in such a rush to judgement, rushrushrush, you would see that Comeoffit is completely correct; 21% can speak Welsh in Wales although of that figure 4% "can only say a few words". The self declared "Fluent in Welsh" figure is 12% although I have seen a survey which gave 11% I respect the WLB Use of Welsh survey because of the size of survey and the fact that it was from face to face interview for a large part.

There is also an allwales survey at;

(

Which is again very large and respectable, again fluent in Welsh and able to speak Welsh are consistent with the previous surveys.
First Language Welsh speakers is more problematical but using school statistics (pupils whose home language is Welsh) suggests 8% in young families whilst amongst 65 plus the figure goes to near 11%. A shrewd guess at 10% is not far off.

Wales should be very worried by social engineering by Language. The 1993 Welsh Language act has given such great advantage to fluent Welsh speakers in the jobs market that Welsh speaking children have less than 10% coming from homes where income is low (free school meals). In English speaking homes the figure is near 20%.

Only in Wales would such gross inequality be accepted and, indeed, courted.

No 45 - merthyrmarkf - so the Welsh language is "Backward". This is the same type of bigotry that is use by the Chinese Communist Party in theri attacks on the Tibetan language. Please explain how Welsh language is "Backward" and please let me know what other languages, races or religions you think are backward?

SEDWOT - Your 12% figure is nonsense designed to attack minority language speakers. In the last census over 20% of people were able to speak Welsh - that is all that matters - . As for complete fluency there are clearly many first language English speakers in Wales who under your who under your take on it would (because of education or health problems) no be fluent in English. And if the majority Welsh speaking areas are doing so well why do they all fall under Objective One areas? Unlike Monmouthshire and the Vale of Glamorgan for example?

"SEDWOT - Your 12% figure is nonsense designed to attack minority language speakers"

Well rush rush, if you don't like the figures that the WLB and the 2008 living in Wales survey arrive at I suggest that you take it up with them.
Certainly it will be novel for the Welsh Language Board to be told that their work is "Designed to attack minority language speakers".

I think the figures come under the title "An inconvenient truth." Your nonsensical take on what I said would be risible were it not so reminiscent of messianic 16th. Century Catholicism.

The reason why fluency is important is that only the fluent can be considered to be first language Welsh speaker. In this case we are talking about verbal fluency...even the verbally fluent are not necessarily able to write Welsh well enough to communicate.

The 20% figure contains a significant number of people who can speak very little Welsh...they are Functionally not able to communicate any but the simplest things. They cannot, for instance, hold a Welsh essential job.

"And if the majority Welsh speaking areas are doing so well why do they all fall under Objective One areas" And where did I say that "the majority of WELSH SPEAKING AREAS ARE DOING....WELL?" I cited the figures for PUPILS who take Welsh GCSE as a first language....only 10% are on FSMs and so only 10% have parents unemployed. In schools where only Welsh second Language is taken at GCSE the FSM rate is 20%. Do You Get it? It's Wales wide, wherever there are Welsh speaking families in, Gwynedd, Wrexham, Cardiff the Rhondda the same facts hold true.

No 47 -

Same old story with far-right extremists and nationalists through the ages, scapegoat a minority for all of our economic ills - "The 1993 Welsh Language act has given such great advantage to fluent Welsh speakers in the jobs market that Welsh speaking children have less than 10% coming from homes where income is low (free school meals). In English speaking homes the figure is near 20%".

And now you say that the 2001 census that declared over 20% of people in Wales is wrong? You say that the "The 20% figure contains a significant number of people who can speak very little Welsh...they are Functionally not able to communicate any but the simplest things. They cannot, for instance, hold a Welsh essential job". What slither of evidence have you for this? Have you spoken to any of them - NO! have you tested their Welsh - NO! Provide the name of one person to back up this ridiculous statement. You should not have a problem as there should be literally hundreds of thousands if you are correct.