Promotion of drink
When I was a young lad in the great and noble city of Dundee, there was a street song which counselled: 鈥淰ote, vote, vote for Neddy Scrymgeour, he鈥檚 the man tae gie ye ham an鈥 eggs.鈥 We sang it loudly, cheerfully ignorant of the identity of the subject but keen on the concept of grub.
Later, when I came to man鈥檚 estate, I learned that the said Neddy (or Edwin) was a prohibitionist who helped oust Winston Churchill as MP for Dundee in 1922 (There were two city seats collectively up for grabs. Labour鈥檚 Edmund Morel won the other). Churchill left the city in a fury, vowing never to return.
Historically, the political class has had an ambivalent attitude towards alcohol.
On the one hand, the Temperance movement, espoused by Mr Scrymgeour, was a substantial factor in the earliest days of Socialism, reflecting, I suppose, a belief that the proletariat had to set aside the factors which held them down.
However, the splendid political folk song entitled 鈥淭he Man who Waters the Workers鈥 beer鈥 reflects an alternative verdict: that there is a special circle of hell reserved for those who interfere with the pleasures of the populace.
Without in any way espousing the Scrymgeour doctrine, Scotland鈥檚 Justice Secretary has today taken steps which, he believes, might help constrain Scotland鈥檚 damaging love affair with the bottle. Kenny MacAskill wants to of drink by supermarkets and off-sales shops.
Mr MacAskill says such offers simply 鈥渆ncourage youngsters to get drunk cheaply in the house or on the street鈥.
The trade has responded by arguing that the measure 鈥 banning three for two offers, for example 鈥 will simply oblige shops to discount prices of individual sales below cost.
Not an easy call, this one. Are special deals the problem? Or should the Treasury act to increase the price of drink overall? If they did, what would that mean for jobs in Scotland鈥檚 drinks industry?
To be fair, the minister made clear that he sees today鈥檚 initiative as simply one element in a longer term campaign to change Scotland鈥檚 drink culture. Worth a wider debate, I think.
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Comments
We're focusing far too much on the 'point of sale' part of the demand; trying to blunt demand once it's already been created by making it inaffordable. Scottish ministers would do far better to look at the social reasons around drinking, than simply trying to use sticking-plaster solutions. In the long term, increasing cost won't do anything, and increasingly regulated retail will only harm the Scottish economy overall.
Education! Education! Education! If even a fraction of the money and zeal spent on anti-smoking campaigns had been diverted to promoting sensible drinking then we wouldn't have such a serious 'drink culture' problem to contend with now.
It isn't just young people, In my last job, several of the 'high heid yins' had alcohol problems and regularly spent time 'drying out'.
It is a hidden disease throughout the whole of the Scotland and causes untold misery. Any action is better than none but education is still a must.
Until the goverment puts alcohol sales back into the hands of experts, the trend of young drunks on the street will continue. As a licencee the blight of alcohol being sold through supermakets and unscrupulous off trader is killing the on (Publicans) and, responsible off trade alcohol ( off licenses). If found guilty of breeches a small trader will ultimately lose there licence but a large establishment will just replace their license holder. Here is the major problem that the government faces. One answer is to put the responsibility back on to the small traders who do have a lot to lose but this would mean stopping all supermarkets serving alcohol. I'm sue Mr Sainsbury would donate a little more to his chosen political party to ensure this wouldn't happen. Maybe we should treat Pubs and good off traders as we do chemists who have to have very stringent criteria for the distribution of its products.
Silly me, I thought with a new administration there would be some new ideas. Looks like the SNP have picked up where Labour left off in terms of the New Puritan state. Kenny McAskill should really tune in - marauding gangs of drunken youths are part of a wider social problem - banning drinks promos - that's a novel idea, where does it all end ? Restrictions on 3 for 2 Mars Bars in case they rot your teeth or make you fat....the permutations are endless. Let's see the Justice Minister put the money where his mouth is and come up with real solutions, not half baked plans written on the back of a 'fag packet' by clueless civil servants from behind a desk at Victoria Quay.
Yet again we have the same old solution to any problem the politicians try to "solve". Make it exclusively for the rich!
Petrol, cigarettes were first now alcohol is being pushed up in price to beat the drinking culture. What about those who DO know how to drink responsibly but at the same time would like to do so affordably? How does this in any way affect the better off amongst us who drink more than their recommended allowance EVERY week?
Same old policies, working is for the poor, enjoying yourself is for the rich.
Why not just raise the age of buying off-sales to 21 with ID and 18 with ID in a pub with no off-sales. Enforce the ban on public drinking. There is no need for further laws just enforce the ones we have now and raise the off-sale buying age. Just by passing laws alone will not change things. The Scottish government could pass a law tomorrow baning poverty and war but what would change nothing. Rather a silly idea from a do gooder!!
Thank you Kenny MacAskill for addressing an issue that should have been dealt with a long time ago.
The abuse of alcohol in this country has to be reduced and where better to start than with the retailers who use a serious drug (short & long term), sold below cost, to entice customers into their store.
This is the tip of the iceberg as far as controlling alcohol abuse is concerned. Mr MacAskill has to educate young people on the long term risks of alcohol and deal with the social issues that drive people to use alcohol "to get drunk".
We have to start somewhere and I applaud the new Scottish Government for taking the first sensible step.
To respond to Freedom of Choice; 3 for 2 Mars Bars should also be banned - they DO rot your teeth and make you fat. Two more problems Scotland must also deal with very soon.
I do resent the slurs cast at hard-working civil servants, though, Mr Choice. You can guarantee that the policy option being espoused here was selected for political reasons, rather than policy merit. There are no easy solutions - only easy soundbites.
And if the first act of an Independent Scotland were to be to slap an import ban on half-bottles of a certain well known "tonic wine" coming into Lanarkshire, I don't think that you'ld hear too many people with burst tyres and dogs hurt by broken glass complaining and the problem would be well on its way to being eliminated.
Seriousness aside, what do we do ? I've seen the workings of the state-run "Alko" in Finland, where basically anything stronger than a medium beer has to be obtained through a neo-Stalinist state Offie which is enough to put anyone off the bevy, never mind the price, which when I was there was nearly 拢40 for a bottle of what we would consider very cheap whisky.
The trouble was that every Finn that I knew was an avid home-brewer and therefore drank themselves virtually insensible at every excuse and opportunity on 8-10% homebrew.
Like it or not, there is a culture of Alcohol use and misuse in Scotland, and the only place that we can change that is in the schools. Get the old alkies in in the same way as they do with the recovering drug users and get them to talk about the misery that booze causes. Alcohol is a legal drug and the Government, Independent or Nay, has to look to reforming both it's supply and the demand for it in our country.
Give them a chance. It's not a "New Puritanism", its Our Government that is finally trying to do something for the overall benefit of the People of Scotland.
Booze isn't going to go away. Let Scotland learn to Live With It instead of For It, and if that needs the SNP Government to actually stand up and say it, then they'll get my vote again.
This smacks of more punitive legislation concerning alcohol which will do nothing to deal with the root causes of drunken violence. Bans on drinking in public which do not differentiate between someone enjoying a glass of wine on a picnic and a wino drinking out a paper bag have done nothing and nor will this. People will always be able to get their hands on cheap booze. The real solution is to clamp down heavily with steep sentences for those people who are causing violence and disorder, rather than punish the majority for the actions of the few
A case of being seen to do something I think.
Just came back from France where alcohol is much cheaper at retail outlets than it is here, yet the don't have the same problems. Why?
Culture! Of course that is much more difficult to change / challenge. So a bit of tinkering with the licensing laws is easier.
BTW retailers complaints sounds like nonsense, how often have I wished that rather than BOGOF, I could just buy one for half the price!
Call it slightly naive if you will, but I'm having a hard time fathoming why drinking a particular quantity of alcohol is in any way negative. It may damage one's health, perhaps even one's career - however as far as I am concerned, it is an individual's prerogative to do that if they so wish.
The problem is the associated anti-social behaviour, and I can assure you that it is not only alcohol that causes that. If the Justice Secretary wants to cleanse Scotland of "young people rampaging the streets shouting abuse at passers by" then perhaps he can focus on his area of expertise and create a police force that bothers to punish the hooligans who are on the streets of our city centres starting fights and making a nuisance of themselves every single weekend. Today, they seem to act with absolute impunity.
So now we can't get more than a dozen comments on *any* subject without someone trying to relate the issue to Independence? This blog is becoming a joke. It's supposed to be a forum for thoughtful discussion of the issues of the day, not an open house for clumsy dripping tap campaigns by nationalists.
I think the issue of alcohol abuse is a very serious one and it deserves to be treated as more than just another opportunity to post the phrase 'independent Scotland' on the 大象传媒 website.
Why punish sensible drinker with increased prices?
Will we stop specials on foodstuff because of obesity?
Then we can all starve to death!
There are laws in place to prevent and punish the sale and consumption by under age drinkers.
Similarly enforcement of the law should deal with and prevent the bad behaviour.
We seem to be going mad with introducing new regulations rather enforcing the current ones.
We could also close down Buckfast abbey and put the monks out of business!
The drink culture in scotland has always been with us but the new alcohol prices (lower than water ) have made things far worse.
Increase taxes on alcohol, use this money to tackle the causes of alcohol abuse and educate the next generation while reducating the present one.
Otherwise just accept the present situation and hope it doesnt get worse.
Every initiative costs money and we need to find it from somewhere.
Whats really frightening is the increase in young drunks will lead to the increase in drunk parents in the future and our society will undoubtfully be harmed for generations.
So will Mr Salmond be having a border police force preventing people from buying their booze in England? Will thje force inspect the contents of people car boots?
Will someone board the trains and planes to check if anyone is bringing in cheap alchol.
Yes something needs doing to reduce the problems of alcohol but trying to ban cheap booze isn't one of them.
I wonder what the research says. Why do young people drink? Is it to make them seem more grown up? Is it because they want a buzz? Is it because their mates are doing it? Is it because it is readily available? Is it because it is not so readily available? The results of such research would surely provide part of the solution.
Generations of well-meaning activists have tried to tackle causes. The hard fact is that Scots still glamorise drunkenness.
I say hit them where it hurts - bring the social value of hard-drinking down by pushing up tax, duty and prices on booze. There has to be a clear economic message that alcoholism is going to cost you dear.
Deal with drunken crime and anti-social behaviour in isolation and with absolute zero tolerance. That way folk might learn to enjoy alcoholic drinks for the taste, and resent those who use it as an excuse for thuggery. A change in attitude will take decades, I fear. But well done the Government for taking a stand and proposing unpopular measures.
It saddens me that few people are willing to confront Scotland's problems in a thoughtful,constructive way.
Commentators on this page give the impression of being well educated and critical.
But some of them just use the space to throw out platitudes and weak premises, or launch attacks on civil servants.
'Slippery slope / thin-end-of-the-wedge' arguments hold no water, and neither does the 'us and them' reaction to policies. We're all paying a high price for alcohol abuse, let's at least try to engage with the issue.
If the problem was simply one of price then would Mr MacAskill like to explain why the youth of France, Spain, Italy, Greece and most of the rest of Europe, where alcohol is less heavily taxed and thus cheaper than in Scotland, aren't lying around drunk in gutters and/or beating up their neighbours in alcohol-induced rage? If he can't, perhaps he might realise that price is neither the cause nor the cure - the cause is deeply ingrained cultural drinking habits and the cure is better education and tougher punishment for drink-induced crimes. Why punish the law-abiding majority to try and tackle a few idiots?
It's clearly a much bigger problem than just price, and also a much larger problem than just youth drinking.
A couple of the comments focus on education of young people, and tacking the issues at school, but this is a problem for society. It is also up to parents to set a good example. I often drink wine in the evenings with a meal, and my teenage children have seen me (and my middle-aged, middle-class friends) the worse for wear. It is up to us too to set a better example and to examine honestly our drinking habits.
There is too little help for those who want to address problems early. Too much is spent on writing strategies, and too little on real, helpful, evidence based counselling programmes - available to people before their drinking becomes life threatening.
I fully support this move by Kenny McAskill. The jury is out as to how effective educating children re alcohol misuse is whereas there is strong evidence that price affects consumtion. I was at a night out recently where the average price for a drink was 拢4, it certainly affected consumtion. As someone who works in the alcohol misuse field I aknowledge this will not be an absolute panacea although it is a good first step. Some contributors are unhappy to pay the increased price but are they happy to pay the price of increased violence, road deaths, loved ones dying early courtesy of cheap alcohol.
Go back 80 years and see what prohibition did for the USA. NOTHING, except encourage people tp devise more devious means of finding their particular fancy. When will Central Goverment wake up to the knowledge that alcohol is an addictive drug to many people. We have to go back to the days of developing the treatment centres we had in the seventies and eighties. In these centres we educated people on the addictive nature of alcohol and gave them the choice of withdrawing in an acceptable manner. goverment spends much less today on alcohol addiction than it does on illegal drug addiction( after all they do licence alcohol sales). There is no need to treat the total population, or indeed punish them with absorbent taxation, with punitive measures, but let us ensure that we are doing the best we can for those suffering from alcohol addiction. Educate on Addiction and we will go a great way to solving some of the social chaos that we have introduced into todays living standards.
Never going to be a popular policy this. But it probably is required in all honesty.
Where are all those suggesting the SNP has nothing but populist policies?
I'd move to hit people where it really hurts by (god forbid) adapting one of the aspects of the American health care system. In sum, whatever damage you caused to yourself and to others through alcohol abuse, you would also pay for yourself. Our health care system is strapped enough without having to pay for self-inflicted stupidity. Let the NHS, the police forces, and the courts start billing people for the trouble they cause. Say what you want about the American health care system, but knowing that you'll have to foot the bill for a night of drunken excess acts as a very effective deterrent.
At long last, something of substance from the SNP, unfortunately it falls way short of the mark. Alcohol marketing policies in supermarkets is in no way the cause of alcohol abuse and all the ills that go with it - and in any case the ever enterprising Scots will find a million workarounds - how long before hypermarkets selling cheap booze spring up on the English side of the border? And are higher prices REALLY going to defeat the neds? I dont think so.
Well intentioned but poorly thought out, superficial and ultimately ineffective. Is it too much to ask for a properly thought out strategy with real targets and timescales??
This is a very disappointing and naive policy from Mr Salmond's party. All it will do is cost the average drinker who bulk buys to save money even more. The extra pounds I would have to pay in order to enjoy a glass of wine regularly will not help change the irresponsible and self-obsessed people in our society.
I have lived in every Western European country. Scotland's (and the UK's) anti-social problems are exactly that - anti-social behaviour. Putting the price of an alcoholic drink up will change nothing. Did the price of heroin every stop a junkie? No, they will only steal to get the money to buy it.
Educate the young and educate their parents, with strong sanctions to back it up.
Let's get back to the days of " A little of what you like " and "Everything in moderation " and then hopefully we will all be "Healthier,happier,and wiser"and maybe even a little wealthier.
As a (fairly) young person of 22 who enjoys the odd bottle of Pernod I feel fairly slighted by this latest news. I don't earn much money. I don't smoke, I don't go to bars and I certainly don't stand on high streets at 2am in the morning vandalising bus shelters - so why is it that only well off younger people should be able to enjoy a tipple of their choice? Deal with the underlying cause of why some young people in Scotland do this - not knee jerk reactions that hurt guilty and innocent alike.
The scandinavians had a similar problem and dealt with it bravely by raising all alcohol prices impressively. I reckon this is probably the only way to deal with a problem so ingrained. But what effect that might have on the scottish brewing and distilling industries, i'm not sure. An iffy one. But aren't alot of distilleries owned by Japanese companies anyway?
I think a more pertinent question is why drinking in a bus stop is the most attractive thing offered to teenagers in many places to do. Anti-social behaviour in many places is actually a manifestation of an attempt to be SOCIABLE, there is often no-where else to meet in a group of peers and actually mix. I imagine if you asked most teenagers would they rather be in a pub with their friends drinking in a "civilised " way like over 18s they would bite your hand off for that chance. Banning particular drinks or hiking up the prices won't help this problem this is a generation with a bigger disposable income than ever. This is an age old problem and this SNP measure is simply tinkering at the edges of an issue they really need to tackle head on which is treatment of young people as a group in Scotland today and the facilities and culture they are brought up with.
It's much cheaper to get 'blootered' these days than it used to be. Why?Disposable income is higher, alcohol prices lower, supermarkets are awash with it, selling it cheaper than milk and with the introduction of alcopops the producers have made it easier for the 'kiddies' to drink. Is it any surprise that alcohol fuelled violence and alcohol related diseases are on the increase now it is so easily available, when I read many of the 'enlightened' comments in here it appears not to be. They complain about the actions taken by the SNP, they want something done but not if it costs them more money for drink, what a bunch of selfish hypocrites! They want cheap booze but don't want to take any responsibility for the social problems it causes.
The SNP should do whatever it takes to remove the problems caused by alcohol from our society, and if a few toes get stepped on......so be it.
In my day we couldn't afford (decent)alcohol(or get served!) so we had to make do with drugs, wether that meant presciption pills or illegal or picked growing in fields. And having not much money you could find us at the bus stop or the train station or the school, always moved on by the cops. Bored out of our minds there was nearly always incidents of sex, violence and vandalism.
We never knew that there was anything else.
The most sensible comment on here is by poster number 2, Ed Martin.
Enough said.
Scottish Government pay heed to the wise comments of this post!
I grew up in Paisley in the 80's and 90's and saw the alcohol related problems first hand, I now live in Canada and you just don't see this stuff going on. I reckon that there are several reasons for it :
Booze is expensive.
You can only get it from a Liquor or Beer store and these are few and far between.
There are loads of activities for kids and families.
I don't think the solution to the problem lies in changing the licencing laws or hours but instead people need to be encouraged to get out of the house or the pub and do stuff with their kids or their mates. An average session at the pub or even a decent carryout probably costs more than a family ticket to the pictures or ten pin bowling and it certainly costs more than kicking a fitba about in the back door!
With respect to those who advocate, banning cheap 'promos' or a greater role for schools in educating young people about alcohol. Seconday schools in Scotland already have personal and social education progammes informing young people on the dangers of alcohol and drugs abuse.
The drink issue in Scotland is a sign of a deeper malaise within Scottish culture, and it requires a more considered view than simply banning cheap 'promos' or advocating our schools do more.
Set the levels for access on best medical / social advice, equally set realistic punishments for breaching the legislation; control access to both tobacco and alcohol by the compulsory display ID for purchases, not by any means rocket science.
This is not the answer, its a knee jerk reaction spawned from the new administration's burning desire to appear to be doing something "new and exciting" - so in essence like most the ideas so far from the SNP - half baked, at best.
Grown adults can make their own decisions, and are free to do so last time I checked, so how about bringing incentives for people to improve their lifestyles, rather than try to make decisions for them? A charging system in the NHS perhaps, for chronic drink related illnesses? Working on the principal of "if you do it to yourself, you can pay for it too"
Education of youngsters is the key to the long term improvement of the situation in the country, and better enforcement of the law is a neccessary step to help drive improvement in the short term.
I would honestly say that the problem of alcohol-fueled gangs of teenagers would still exist even which the proposed measures in place - as the lack of anything constructive to do leads to these young people to take to the streets, not the alcohol they consume once they get there.
Anyway, how many youngsters walk into tesco or the likes to BOGOF on crates of kronenberg? I think you'll find they are obtaining the alcohol from other channels!!
Another alternative would be to ban football teams and the likes from having alcohol sponsorship - stop glorifying alcohol to the younger generation.
Treat the cause, not the after effects.