The National Conversation alternative
Wendy Alexander was in London yesterday. She was, I鈥檓 told, holding talks with the Scottish Secretary Des Browne.
The topic? Well, I would imagine that one or two side issues arose - but the core subject was, apparently, today鈥檚 debate at Holyrood on Scotland鈥檚 constitutional future.
So let鈥檚 remind ourselves what is going on, perhaps with a brief recap re Ms Alexander鈥檚 speech last Friday which was somewhat swamped on the day by the matter of party donations.
Right now, MSPs are debating the notion of setting up a commission to consider the devolved settlement.
As you would expect, the debate is rather lively, if a little acerbic.
The Commission is a Labour wheeze - but it has been agreed by the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.
Which means it will get through. It will happen.
What will it do? It will provide an 鈥渆xpert led, independent鈥 review of devolution, including devolved powers.
It will provide an alternative discussion to the National Conversation opened by the First Minister. (Hint: it will not feature independence.)
Ms Alexander helpfully offered a few pointers to her thinking in her speech last Friday - which was, incidentally, a thoughtful contribution, assessing frankly the flaws in devolution while asserting the proclaimed merits of the Union.
I was intrigued by what she said - and what she didn鈥檛 say. Nothing, for example, on Scotland in Europe.
On finance, she indicated that Holyrood should be less reliant on the block grant. That would mean reverting to the original Convention plan of assigned revenues - which was sidelined in the final version.
Under that system, cash raised in Scotland through particular taxes is retained in Scotland - instead of being sent to the Treasury for subsequent disbursement.
But there were limits. Ms Alexander was sceptical as to whether, under EU rules, Scotland could vary VAT or corporation tax.
They might be partially assigned - but Scotland could not alter their rate.
Further, she offered a vigorous nod in the direction of those in England who complain that Scotland is over-funded.
Naturally, she did this subtly, stressing the requirement to be 鈥渇air to all parts of the UK.鈥 But she was promising a needs assessment, presumably instigated by the Treasury.
I have long argued that such a needs assessment, perpetually desired by the Treasury and repeatedly resisted by Scottish Secretaries and First Ministers, will happen eventually.
But we should not pretend that it would be anything other than a challenge to Scotland. Unless a vigorous defence could be mounted, Scotland would be likely to lose funding.
That might be right, it might be fair - but it would be a tough exercise.
Further, Ms Alexander floated the West Lothian question - without in any way offering an answer. She talked about regionalism - knowing, I believe, full well that regionalism does not answer West Lothian unless the regional assemblies have legislative power.
The issue was, she argued, 鈥渇or UK colleagues to consider鈥.
Be clear: that is an advance. It replaces the customary Labour position that the best way to answer West Lothian is to stop asking it.
Both these positions - finance and West Lothian - will have been agreed with Des Browne. And therefore with the UK Government. Hence yesterday鈥檚 further talks.
Hence Labour鈥檚 willingness to enter a concordat with the other opposition parties in Holyrood.
I'm 
Comments
All hail to Queen Wendy Alexander, voted in by Labour, Tory and LibDem MSPS as the new leader of the Unionist parties in Scotland. A bargain at only 拢950.
It becomes more obvious as the days pass that Wendy Alexander is only a Labour Party animal in effect Gordon's poodle and has nothing to offer the people of Scotland.
Too little too late.
so it is still the case that labour msps and the leader (sic) of the Scottish Labour Party have to get clearance from London before making any utterances? plus ca change?
I rmember a few weeks ago when SNP said they would not be giving 2000 new police officers that a certain Ms Alexander slated their failure to fulfil their pre election pledges. Does her statement today not contradict what Labour were saying before the election?
Labour seem to be lacking a little credibility and a huge sense of direction at the moment.
What use exactly are her proposals? They fall short of fiscal autonomy, and so don't actually address the issues brought up by our friends in the south with respect to the Barnett formula, nor do they actually provide any new powers, financial stability, or the ability to do any long term financial planning (just ask Brian Ashcroft). All they provide is a way for the unionists to buy a little more time, and possibly pacifiy some sections of the public for a few more years.
WA...Whats the point?? The electorate cant take anything she says seriously and if this is the way forward with Labour , you can keep it!
These arent solutions , there halfway houses, get off the fence.
Scottish Independence is the dividing line of Scottish politics. Today's attempt to exclude the government and the people's voice is a shining example. How can a Commission that does not represent, or even seek to include, one half of the dividing line of our national politics be an appropriate body to move our nation forward?
The National Conversation by contrast includes all unionist options and the most important, the people of Scotland.
How can the people of Scotland's constitutional wish keep being trumpeted by unionists when a single issue referendum has never, ever been asked? and will not be asked if unionists get their way.
Wendy and her fellow unionists are getting ready to abandon Scotland once again. We need not some of the revenues gained from Scotland but all of the revenues, including those from Scottish resources.
The relationship between England and Scotland will improve when each is able to stand independent financially from each other.
Anything less will just keep the pot boiling.
Brian - Why are you leading on this old and somewhat ill thought-out diversion? There are only two big stories in Scotland at the moment - Bendy Wendy and the news that the SNP is 11% ahead in the polls. Indeed, according the YouGov poll, Alex Salmond and SNP are considerable more poplar amongst Labour voters that Bendy Wendy and Gordon Brown-Envelope combined! Surely this is much more significant than the setting-up of a talking shop who's solitary aim is to stop the SNP?
Burying the lead?
If you think Wendy wrote this herself then you are deluding yourself - Wendy would have to get agreement in private before making any document public - talking of documents!
Wendy has said that documents exist which Prove she did everything possible to ensure that donations were legal.
This advise is to no one in particular
When you change the time and date on your computer to produce a letter with a convienient creation date - for goodness sake remember to destroy the backup tapes for the date in question - otherwise you will have some explaining to do.
But then again maybe one can just say nothing till it all goes away.
Brian you can not be serious in thinking this open law breaking by Labour north and south of the border will actually leave either Alexander or Browne with any credibility or the union intact?
The sad thing for all you pro-union journalists is that you just do not see your biggest threat is not from the SNP, it is from the rank and stinking cowpat, that is Labour in Scotland, which you cuddle up to on every occasion.
I trust you have read Ian McWhirter's requiem for Labour in the Herald? More to the point than your pantomime tale above.
This Labour plan sounds lame.
If we are talking about fiscal autonomy... let's make it REAL fiscal autonomy, including all tax revenue generated from Scottish gas and oil.... Will we then be 'worse off' Brian? I think not, and that's why Labour's plan will be so watered down as to be a meaningless gesture that won't amount to anything anyway; also, whatever lame duck they do come up with will vanish into the endless red tape of commitee after commitee, achieving nothing.
The fact is, Labour will argue for 'limited' (i.e. virtually zero) fiscal autonomy while reserving the real meat for Westminster... so that Scotland will be *worse off*, as your own article admits... great plan Brian!
Can I also ask why the opposition parties are so keen to accept the leadership on this 'convention' from someone who has broken the law on dodgy donations?
I couldn't care what excuse or paperwork Alexander comes up with, or whether or not any cheque was written out to 'WA Campaign'... the point is, she personally wrote a letter of thanks to her best bud Mr Green IN JERSEY, thanking him for his donation, in response to his cheque, also sent from Jersey!
If she knew the rules about this then she is a liar.
If she didnt understand, then she is incompetent.
The Scottish Labour leader broke the law with regards to funding her political election.
She can not cover that up with this devolution commission proposal.
She should no longer be allowed to be Labour leader, it's as clear as that - she should be sacked!
If she knowingly broke the law, (and if she did not know, she shouldn't be in her job anyway)then she could do it again, how can she now be trusted with anything.
I suggest she looks for a new job where the temptations to break the law are not available.
I am not interested in anything she may, or may not say, now, or at anytime in the future. She broke the law! Thats the fact!
Yes Brian, with the parliamentary arithmetic the way it is, this proposal for a Unionist talking shop at public expense, will undoubtedly be voted through.
The Scottish Government though does not have to accept the result - and in my view should not do so unless all options (including Independence) are up for discussion.
If the primary policy of the largest Party is excluded from discussion, what value is there in this proposal?
Quite simply,the tail should not be allowed to wag the dog
Simply put, any needs assessment of the constituent parts of the UK would have to take into account all the issues. Here in Scotland, for instance, we have a large & sparely populated country. It therefore costs significantly more to deliver services of all types compared to, say, the SE of England, which benefits from economies of scale. Would that Scotland could get some of the billions poured into CrossRail, Heathrow, M25, Olympics......
Still in the huff and refusing to countenance speaking to the Government. Lest we forget, this is the party that was adamant that there was no need for additional powers prior to the election. Now they've lost they will say anything to regain power. Events of the last week only serve to demonstrate the lust for power that exists within the Labour Party. That they would sell their granny and abandon their beliefs (London permitting) to regain it speaks volumes.
The National Conversation is already up and running. Might I suggest they're ignoring it as they have no confidence in their ability to win the argument?
Hi Brian
I am enjoying reading your comments
Who does Wendy Alexander think she is?
She is not the first minister of this country and she never will be after last weeks events. Visiting Des Browne seeking agreement on constitutional matters is not her job.
However this is playing into Alex Salmonds hand and Labour may be opening more doors for the nationalist agenda without realising it.
A thought has came to my mind this week that everyone keeps having a go at Alex Salmond for "picking a fight" with westminster and that it is not what the Scottish people want to see. Tell me this if David Cameron won the next general election and Labour were in power North of the border, do they seriously think that they will get on like a house on fire?
Do not think so
I'm surprised the other parties are still prepared to sign up for the constitutional convention after the recent donations scandal. I'm sure i heard that a number of LibDem and Tory MSPs were furious to have their parties associated with Labour. Incidentally is Nicol Stephen still in hiding!?
Also today in other news a YouGov poll shows the SNP recording their highest ever lead over labour in Scotland. The split is now 40-29, an 11 point gap! Just a shame that you won't find that mentioned anywhere on the 'unbiased' 大象传媒 website.
Yes Brian, with the parliamentary arithmetic the way it is, this proposal for a Unionist talking shop at public expense, will undoubtedly be voted through.
The Scottish Government though does not have to accept the result - and in my view should not do so unless all options (including Independence) are up for discussion.
If the primary policy of the largest Party is excluded from discussion, what value is there in this proposal?
Quite simply,the tail should not be allowed to wag the dog
The speech by Wendy Alexander last week was an interesting contribution to the debate even if it was drowned out a little by other events. It seems she is not prepared to adhere strictly to the status quo or death approach of previous Scottish Labour leaders and recognises that devolution is an evolving process. Strict adherence to dogma is wrong whether it is unthinkingly supporting the status quo or blinkered belief that only independence is the answer.
This all proves that if Wendy Alexander can clear up the donation mess then she can actually go on to become an intelligent and thoughtful contributor to Scottish politics. Maybe that is why the SNP are so keen to see her resign? Just a thought
Another Labour-dominated 鈥楥onstitutional Convention鈥 similar to the previous one, with the ultimate aim of keeping independence 鈥 or even the prospect of a popular referendum on it 鈥 off the agenda.
Now there鈥檚 a surprise.
The previous Constitutional Convention, although it too was hijacked by Labour, at least offered the illusion of being an effective forum representing a cross-section of Scottish society.
Arising in the midst of such distrust, at a time when Labour鈥檚 Scottish leader is being used as a blatant pawn by her Westminster masters, this latest ploy should be seen as exactly what it is 鈥 a vehicle for the 3 unionist parties to ensure their united political aim of keeping Scotland firmly under Westminster rule.
These parties may have a built-in Holyrood majority enabling them to block an independence referendum 鈥 but by what cynical means will they foist the notion on the public that it is in our interest to be denied the right to the option?
Brian not your fault i realise but why no 大象传媒 reporting of latest Scottish Polls?
Also title of article elsewhere on this site seems a wee bit biased "messy divorce" (Also refers to "divorce settlement fron hell") could the unbiased 大象传媒 have a bit of an agenda?
How sad to see that you have clearly been cowed into publishing this Labour Party press release!
Suddenly you're trying to counteract the "swamping" of poor Wendy's speech? Give us a break! Last week she was caught with her fingers in the till - today she's making thoughtful and subtle "contributions"!?
A sad day indeed for Scottish journalism. We really don't want to read "comment" with Wendy Alexander鈥檚 grubby fingerprints all over it.
Let's see if you have the guts to publish this post. Go on - prove you're not just Wendy's glove puppet!
How can we take labour in Scotland seriously they are unable to look after their own finances never mind ours.
Labour has their funds doled out to them from London and could'nt even get someone in Scotland to donate 拢950.
Labour Lib Dems Tories all need subsidies from England.
They are bought and sold for English gold sic a parcel o rogues in a nation.
Surely, until Wendy has been cleared of any possible charges arising from her confessing on live TV, she must stand aside - by supporting her at this time the LDs and Tories do the Scots People no favours.
Mr Taylor,
The Commission is not a Labour wheeze.
Indeed it is neither Labour nor a wheeze
It is clear from the broad-terms of the motion that it is the result of negotiations between the majority parties. Indeed the three party leaders made reference to negotiations between each other and Westminster colleagues during the debate. Indeed, the motion represents Liberal Democrat policy far more closely than that of any other party. The Commission will also be independently chaired.
Further it is not a wheeze. With the Majority in Westminster and Holyrood behind the commission, it is hard to believe that it will not deliver more powers for Holyrood. The National Conversation is only supported by the SNP, does not have parliamentary support and is nothing but a wheeze to maintain SNP party unity.
The National Conversation is an SNP wheeze
The Constitutional Commission will be a cross party attempt to find national consensus on constitutional change will is likely to be delivered.
How sad to see that you have clearly been cowed into publishing this Labour Party press release!
Suddenly you're trying to counteract the "swamping" of poor Wendy's speech? Give us a break! Last week she was caught with her fingers in the till - today she's making thoughtful and subtle "contributions"!?
A sad day indeed for Scottish journalism. We really don't want to read "comment" with Wendy Alexander鈥檚 grubby fingerprints all over it.
Let's see if you have the guts to publish this post. Go on - prove you're not just Wendy's glove puppet!
"It will provide an alternative discussion to the National Conversation opened by the First Minister. (Hint: it will not feature independence.)"
How this can be touted as a discussion is beyond me when there is a blanket ban on discusssing one of the main options i.e. independence.
The arrogance of the unionist parties is staggering. I for one do not want to be told what topics are and are not up for discussion, and I don't want my taxes being wasted on comissions that will not look at all of the options.
For what it's worth, one of those options should be the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament. As a firm nationalist this is not a path I would like to see Scotland go down, but as a democrat I am willing to see that option discussed, argue my case, and accept the will of the majority.
Oh how the tide has turned!!
Now, every party in the country wants constitutional change - even the unionists!
Of course, wee Bendy and THE WEE DUGGIE and their acolytes have a pretty poor record in respecting the constitution of any organisation.
And the news from Brian that the wee Bendy and 'part-time Des' have discussed some kind of concordant already will, hopefully, make it clear to all voters that 'the Labour Party in Scotland' remains throled to Westminster and can only jump as low as Des says!
I agree with Colin, this move shows the arrogance of the unionist gang of three. I cant understand why they do not take part in the national conversation as it includes options other than independence. Well actualy I do - they are not taking part as they want to score petty political points against the SNP. It is clear they do not have the best interests of Scotland or infact democracy at heart and are only doing this as the SNP are setting the agenda.
If they (labour) now support extra powers for the parliament can they justify why Scots shouldnt be trusted to run the things they decide we shouldn't control or in this case even discuss!
After they've decided what they think we can control they should submit it as their option to the national conversation and lets have a multi option referendum.
So will we get our oil tax retained in Scotland? If not then that is a slap in the face and we should just go for fiscal autonomy with what is raised in our waters as our tax revenue... not some made up UK waters nonsense.
Oh please!All these SNP supporters going on about Wendy Alexander,what can I say! Sweety Wife Salmond lied at the election about class sizes,police numbers,tuition fees and now prescription charges,his sleazy right hand man from the Western Isles had some fun and games in a hotel paid for by the tax payer whilst his wife was pregnant,and the SNP try and talk to us about integrity! Sooner or later the Scottish public will wake up to the fact as to what a bunch of con artists the SNP are!
As usual the SNP staff are on here in force - just like they all came out on the orders of Alex Neil to heckle and disrupt peaceful student protestors who had the nerve to feel let down by the SNP's borken promises.
They are all here promoting an opinion poll that shows the SNP ahead.....paid for by surprise, surprise the SNP.
And they dont like to draw any attention to the last regualr reputable large sampled polling on independence which showed support for separatism at less than 1 in 4 and its lowest level since 1992. Which suggests this cross-party approach is close to what people in scotland want, as opposed to the SNP seeking to ram their hate-filled, narrow, nationalistic ideology down our throats as though they are the only people who care about Scotland
Quote: "The SNP is soft on crime and softer on criminals," Annabel Goldie.
Well Annabel Goldie has just voted in Parliament to have Wendy Alexander, the best known law breaker in Scotland, lead the Constitutional Commission.
It would seem the Tories are more than happy to have a law breaker in charge of parliamentary business.
You simply could not make this stuff up.
Just watched Wendy Alexander at FMQs today - she is even more irrelevant than Des Browne. The Presiding Officer needs to get a grip of opposition MSPs acting like children. Why is Nicol Stephen still there? Why is Wendy Alexander still there?
Looking at how the Treasury and the City of London are running the economy at the moment then it's not just a bit more fiscal devolution we need but complete fiscal autonomy through independence.
Scotland really can't afford to be involved this lot anymore and in fact neither can Wales or Northern Ireland.
Wendy Alexander's St Andrews Day speech was pretentious tosh Brian.
It could have been made by any senior Labour politician in the 1970's and would not have raised
an eyebrow in the Quality Press.
Even Annabel Goldie has a better grasp of the Barnett Formula and
indeed it was she who took on the
myths about redistribution in her
recent 大象传媒 Question Time session -
using figures from The Herald to scotch some of the subsidy myths.
Alexander could have done that on the same panel but she didn't cos
she spent the whole period of the
Holyrood election peddling exactly
the same myths herself. She is now
a busted flush on the finance issue.
No mention of Scotland in Europe?
Well spotted - but what planet has she been living on for the last 30
years? Scotland has been in Europe since 1972 and most councillors are
more at home in Brussels these days
than they are in London. But Gordon
Brown does not do Europe: so neither
now does Wendy Alexander it seems? I suspect she takes the same line on it that she takes on Trident renewal.
Who was it too that wound up the unit in the Scottish Eexecutive's civil service that was supposed to
look at the tax powers that we the people voted for back in '97? There were, remember, TWO questions on the ballot paper in that Referendum. But the Cabinet of which Ms Alexander was a senior member chose to wind
up that specialist unit and rely instead on PFI schemes to raise the money to buy their way into power.
Now it seems we are to be directed back towards 'assigned revenues' -
but who 'sidelined' the 'original
Convention plan'? Come on, Wendy,
name names .... starts with B ...
And as for the selective history of the Home Rule struggle she offered.
'Thoughtful?' No ....it was worse than partisan: she airbrushed out Jack McConnell and maligned John P Mackintosh who was her intellectual superior - and who would never have got into the situation of being seen to be beholden to anybody, not least a Prime Minister in London pulling her strings as the Labour leader in Scotland!
But what was also buried in her text was a quite astonishing reference to the possibility of Scotland actually HANDING POWERS BACK to Whitehall in the area of 'contingency planning'!
So much for The Smeaton Doctrine of people on the spot taking the action.
Coordination is of course needed in a time of crisis - but that happens very effectively now that there are
SNP Ministers in charge in Scotland;
except of course in England where the contingency planning prior to the recent floods was done by one Douglad Alexander when he was at The UK Cabinet Office. Sadly he forgot to tell even The Chief Constable of Gloucestershire that if the Severn burst its banks, and a single power switching station succumbed, there would be 500,000 people without any power or water and GCHQ would close down - as it didn't have a backup generator!These Alexanders are a menace - 'thoughtful' they ain't!
I really fear that a middle of the road approach only partial fiscal autonomy might be disadvantageous and not as independence would allow total fiscal autonomy and economic strategy based upon the needs of one nation.
Oh here we go again. Wee Wendy is clearly taking a leaf out of the sainted Donald's book. Even he could not in the end talk the desire for change into the ground and his party had to come up with something. (The current dog's breakfast that is known as Scottish Devolution.)
It looks as if she and her cronies are going to give the tactic another go, but this time the conditions are different. We have had a wee taste in the last few months of the possibilities that might come with self-determination and have been encouraged to look for more.
In addition the Labour Party has become so completely discredited in the public's perception that they will just not be believed to be acting in good faith.
There is clearly only one way forward and that is to dump the whole damn lot of them and their Union at the earliest possibility.
This is an absolute disgrace , the 3 Unionist parties in an attempt to score points against the most popular government since devolution appeared join forces.
Can't call the SNP Tartan Tories now the first gang of three in China eventually got their comeuppance let us hope these 3 sorry excuses for "Scottish Political Parties" are likewise finished off.
The National conversation allows for all shades of opinion including Independence ,fiscal autonomy etc..
How can we as a nation take this seriously when it has been crafted in London and only allows further devolved powers without the ability to even discuss Independence.
Perhaps Wendy is not knowingly ignoring by today's poll 40% of the electorate
What a parcel of rogues right enough!!!
Be silent always when you doubt your sense;
And speak, though sure, with seeming diffidence:
- Alexander Pope
The problem with the Scottish parliament is that there are NO MSPs of a high enough calibre to run any form of government, independent or otherwise.
Brian I wonder what you meant when you said that Alex Salmond sayed nothing about expenses today when you were speaking to Iain after Holyrood Live today.Did you mean he might have something to hide?? Can't wait to see the papers tomorrow after reading on the 大象传媒 web that the SNP spent the most at the election wonder what slant will be put on that.
It is a nonsense to have a constitutional commission which ignores the option of independence. The likelihood of the 3 parties agreeing is pretty remote. The Labour party position has completely reversed since the election. It's not credible. All three are taking orders from London. So we have a commission which doesn't include independence and rather than include the people of Scotland it's agenda is set by London. It's a total insult. It also does nothing for the credibility of the Tories and the Lib Dems that they are allowing themselves to be led by a woman shortly to be subject to a criminal investigation. No wonder the Nats are steaming ahead in the polls.
Post 42 mentions that the SNP are the most popular government since devolution, a question to post 42, how many governments have you had since devolution?.
Post 42, mentions that 40% of Scotland wants devolution, well what about the 60% who don't?.
Scotland is a fantastic country, England is also a fantastic country, yet the constant attacks by Scottish nationalists against their neighbours will result in the English starting to be as bigoted and irrational as some of the more extreme Scottish nationalists.
As a Dutch person who has lived and worked in both Scotland and England, I cannot understand why the SNP thinks that Scotland will be better off without the union, the Scottish economy is totally dependent on England, the English could easily move forward without Scotland, however the same could not be said for the Scottish economy.
I ask this question specifically to post 42, would you accept an English first minister?, would you accept a cabinet with all the senior posts held by English politicians?, would you be prepared to pay more money per head to the English than Scottish people?.
I imagine that the answer would be no, so put yourself in the shoes of a typical English person and start to understand why your complaints are treated with contempt, the United Kingdom is good for Europe, it is good for England, Wales, Northern Ireland and it is good for Scotland.
Let's hope that common sense prevails and the Scottish public continues by an overwhelming majority to keep the Union.
i work for city of ed council at city chambers and have contact at scottish parliament security.
we are awaiting the response from the electoral commission before releasing further revelations into the public domain.
wendy is finished. the labour party are finished.
all the msps we were told supported her in her criminality are guilty by the support and association of her.
Why all the carping? I bet it'll be the best wee constitutional commission in the world.
Wendy's new "vision" is clearly nonsense as it has been endorsed by exactly no-one down south. All it serves to do is stop the nasty headlines about the reality of Labour's extremely dodgy financial dealings.
Ms Alexander's "vision" does not extend beyond ensuring her political career lasts the week.
About time! But those posters above who mentioned Wendy's wee present of 拢950, how about asking Alex Salmond on his views on re-regulating bus companies, only to change his mind after a certain Mr Soutar donated a substantial sum to the SNP?
Anyway, we need a devolotion debate, since the SNP has failed to explain the following issues should Scotland gain full independance:
Defence
Resources
National Debt
Pensions for ex-Armed Forces
Public Sector pensions
Time Zones (GMT, Summer time etc)
Currency
EU Rebate/Payments
Benefits
Immigration
Law
Residential rights for those children born in England to Scottish parents
Education and Funding
Healthcare
Business
Taxes
The list goes on and MUST be debated. Whatever people say of Wendy Alexander and Labour, you cannot just nreak up the UK because of a political party with a single agenda.
Sheena no34, I am an SNP supporter but not a member of staff as you would suggest. Is this really the best you can come up with to defend just how low Labour have sunk? I said on here many weeks ago that the Labour party in Scotland was a cancer in Scottish politics and rotten to the core, the events of the last week have proven that beyond doubt.
As far as I am concerned Wendy Alexander has lost the right to address the people of Scotland due to her if not exactly breaking the law, which is still under consideration, but attempting to hide the source of donations with the amount of 拢950 to avoid alarm bells sounding.
Just what does it take to see how corrupt Labour are?
Brian, read McWhirter's piece in todays Guardian; that real jornalism laddie.
I've already posted on this issue, but another point occurs. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, & feel that many of the people attcking the 大象传媒 for partisanship toward Labour are a bit off the wall. BUT, have people noticed that it's always the "SNP" government on the Beeb. Seldom if ever, the "Scottish" government. And if you look at the UK website, one doesn't see the "Labour" government; just the government.
Would someone from the Beeb like to comment?
The article on this web site entitled "A Scottish divorce... who gets the kids?", which invites comments on the independence issue, is too well manicured and very selective about the comments it is listing. What use is it? How is the information going to be used and what does it intend to achieve if it is censored up to the hilt!!
What I don't see is why she needed to go down south for talks. Can she not receive instruction by telephone? It worked on Sunday when gordon called to tell her to stay for the sake of the party! She didn't find the need to run to london then.
34 Sheena; As far as I can see there are not very many references to the poll (Reported in the Herald incidently and run by YouGov) one from me, bought and paid for by no party or property developer and I resent the implication that because I express my opinion you assume I'm paid for it. Can you say the same? I await your reply with interest (Just which Unionist group pays your wages I wonder).
Number 33: S.ROBERTS wrote:
"Oh please! All these SNP supporters going on about Wendy Alexander,what can I say!
...yeah, "All those SNP Supporters"... RIGHT ON!... you are Sooooooo right S.Roberts, people like us don't pay attention to opinion polls... we know that polls are just a collection of statistics... that reflect what people are thinking in reality.
Hell, we know that's not important... cos reality has a well known SNP bias... Right?
We know there are still WMD's in Iraq somewhere... we'll find em... and we certainly don't believe that a few trams in Edinburgh could possibly cost that much... an' hell, we certainly gave Scotland their best deal ever when it came to dishing out the cash bro! Yep... Ah'm right with ya brovva!
You tell em' how it is & remember... Don't listen to them when they try to play that 'Logic' card... we know their logic is over-rated.
Ps. I will post you that cheque I promised. Regards, Brian.
Oh dear, Labour forming a coalition with the Conservatives, and anybody else other than the SNP.
Seems that Ms Alexander, and the rest of the brigand band that is New labour only knows one type of politics - non co-operation and negativity, and the benefit of the Big Backhander.
Yes, the party of Sleaze still do not understand why they are out, and it is doubtful if they ever will.
A Culling of the Corrupt is heading to a constituency near you, - and no amount of bunging and spin will stop it. Indeed, will Gordon Brown be safe or will he be another John Howard
Yes time for a change - change absolutely.
Devolution: The transfer of power or authority from a central government to a local government.
Wendy Alexander MSP is duty bound only to discuss the aspects of devolution that her superiors in London allow.
Wendy Alexander MSP does not have a mandate from the electorate of Scotland to negotiate our future, and therefore should refrain from doing so.
Wendy Alexander MSP,and her party in both Holyrood and Westminster are in serious trouble with the Police and the Electoral Commision.
Wendy Alexander MSP is offering a watered down London initiative as a answer to ' National Conversation'.
Wendy Alexander MSP, I did not vote for your party and neither did the majority,that is why you are not in Government, on that basis do not speak on my behalf nor that of my nation.
Craig
The SNP may have spent more on the election campaign than Labour, but at least the money was raised in Scotland, not subsidised by London Centric Parties, Unionist company directors and murky Union funding!
Aunty and wee nic should be ashamed of themselves, conspiring with criminals.
The SNP spent more than Labour in the election, but if the Daily Record and the Sun had charged Labour for the wall to wall free support given to them the figures would have been very different indeed.
Remember on May 3rd when the Record published details of who to vote for in marginal seats just to keep the SNP out!? Thats right, the record even told people to vote for the Tories! It should change its name to Pravda and have done with it. With propoganda like this being consumed by the population on a daily basis it makes the SNP's election victory all the more incredible.
I think Annabel Goldie said yesterday this was the most important debate and moment in the Parliments short history.
I think we will all look back on it and wonder how we let the most discredited person in Scotland lead this thing.
Does anyone think that the people of Scotland have any real interest in what the opposition parties have to say.We know where they stand on the constitution,same old nonsense & lies recycled & repackaged at the taxpayers expense.Another attempt to sideline the SNP.Labour lost the election accept it deal with it.I wonder if we got a full turnout at a Scottish election with a level playing field ie funding from 'within Scotland'
Think about it!!!!
So what Wendy and her Lib-Dem and Tory cohorts are effectively saying is that we can have a debate and we can all have a chance to voice our opinion provided we don't mention independence? Is this democracy? On Radio Scotland on Wednesday evening, the Tory representative pointed out that only 23% of the population favour independence. If that is the case, then that's 23% of the population that have been excluded from this debate. This "consultation" is to democracy what Wendy's campaign donations are to legality.
Brian
This alternative conversation is welcomed but will the other parties then be putting their question into the national conversation. Also who is paying for this conversation. I dont mind paying taxes for a referendum to answer wether we want independence or not. I do object to paying taxes in a non govermental referendum that will take money away from some other worthwhile project. The thing that sticks in my throat most about this is Ms alexanders leadership campaign soliciting money from an island that currently has more powers than scotland does and then telling us the SNP are devisive. If Ms Alexander and the other parties have to look outside of scotland for funding then does that in itself not say people with money in scotland arent supporting them.
I write as a member of no political party. On balance the present Scottish government under Mr Salmond is like a ray of sunshine when compared with the years since devolution. S. Roberts Post 33; should have a bit more care in what he writes, insulting invective is no substitute for reasoned debate.
Mr Van Engleshoven post 47; should butt out of affairs he obviously knows nothing about.
There is nothing wrong with the English, but just as Holland have an attitude problem with their own German neighbours. He ought to know better than to criticise Scots on their attitude toward our large neighbour .
He should also realise that for three hundred years Scotland has been ruled from England. The 57 or so Scottish MPs in Westminster are nowhere near a match for the 400 plus English MPs.
This lame duck of an idea was obviously conceived in Westminster in an attempt to pacify the electorate in Scotland.
It was only yesterday that the term 'Independence creep' was being banded around by the very same people who now claim they wish to take devolution forward.
The current democratic government, voted in by the people of Scotland are capable of representing the nation.
As grateful as we are for your offer we would prefer our legal representatives do our bidding.
# 51 Neil Small - all those issues have been addressed. It is just plain wrong to say their is no position for what happens to the currency, "resources2, national debt etc ... If you had sought any information from outwith the 大象传媒 propaganda piece on radio 4 last night - you may have known that.
I find it heart-wrenching that as a Scot I find my fellow countrymen brainwashed by Alex Salmond's rhetoric. The thing I admire about the Labour Party is that they actually live in the real world. The SNP need to come back to reality and start delivering. Promises, promises, promises ... but where are the results? Why has the school building programme been stopped? Why are teachers fearing the return to Thatcher days where they had to staple newspaper together to make jotters? Why did Scotland elect these inexperienced idiots?
Wendy Alexander is an inspiration to any young woman in politics and I am a VERY proud supporter of her and her party.
on the 23%,I would like them to poll the people again!
I rather suspect that the figure is greater now!
Congratulations Neil Small (post #51) for injecting a welcome dose of realism into the union/independence debate. These are all issues on which supporters of independence are strangely quiet. May I add others given the SNP's position on membership of the EU:
1. Will the EU grant automatic membership or will Scotland join the list of those who have to apply for accession?
2. Adoption of the Euro (if it lasts) and the convergence requirements of Maastricht?
3. The obvious movement towards European integration, why leave one union simply to join another in which Scotland will most likley be less independent in economic and business matters than it is just now? Look at the fault lines in the Euro-zone interest rates are being set that suit Germany and other countries that need tighter monetary policies while squeezing other countries such as Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, and that well known Celtic tiger and possible economic model for an independent Scotland, Ireland.
Finally, for this bit, the EU is looking East and South not West. It may accept an independent Scotland, but the bulk of development money and grants will go where it is most needed: East (former Soviet Republics) and South (the Balkans and Turkey) when they are granted accession.
Best Wishes,
Will.
Neil Small,
Have you read the white paper on independence? All your questions are answered there. It can be viewed online for free, or you can buy it from Blackwell's.
Well done Brian, congratulations. After 20 years being interested in politics and the future of Scotland this article has finally made me decide to pack it in.
What's the point in banging my head against a brick media?
* No report on the opinion poll.
* No report on FM's questions
* No positive on anything the Scottish Government does
* Always towing the Labour party line
Well, tell you what - you keep Scotland and I'll keep my money and plans to leave this country as soon as possible. The day when you realise Wendy Alexander has sold us down the river and given away the Barnett formula without getting oil revenues is the day this country might wake up; but I doubt it.
Farewell 大象传媒. I will fight your right for a licence fee from this day forth.
Maybe they should use this type of service
for politicians to see if they really knew about the source of their donations, if it is good enough to catch benefit thieves....
Did anyone see Question time last night. Hilareous. Apprently Wee Dougie - Wee Wendy's Bro- had done a runner at the last moment. Just what do the Alexander duo have to hide?
I know what Bendy Wendy did with the money. She used it to buy a computer for her house as she used to hog a computer within Hillhead Library and leave it locked past her allocated time. She also left a pen drive in the computer and papers piled up next to it all unattended while she was outside making a phone call.
Tut tut.
#68, CLH wrote "Why has the School Building Programme Stopped."
I would request that you supply your source for this outrageous remark. I work for a large local authority in Scotland in the same department as the design team who are carrying out the Schools projects... They don't look like they are doing nothing to me. I believe the current phase includes 14 new schools with the next phase including about 12. I am also aware through freinds that other local authorities in Scotland are equally as busy. Infact just about everyone in the construction industry in Scotland is either involved or knows someone that is.
(https://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Education/Schools/Buildings)
...It gets more amazing by the day, just how desperate NuLabour and their 'obidient' supporters are becoming.
Isn't it a bit mad that only 75% of the popululation of Scotland want a referendum on independence but co-incidentally only 35% of the population acutally want independence? A nonsense!
Saor Alba.
I think the Unionist parties have missed something here.
Why not call for a vote on independence now......right now.
The SNP will lose creditability as it tries to explain how Independence is going to work.
#75: The reason for him not being able to attend Question Time was given, you may have missed it in your hilarity.
I think it's great the parties are discussing what's next for Holyrood and Scotland, it's about time!
I need to add, a minority government falls way short of representing a nation.
post 34 sheena
Sheena you want the truth, im not a member of the snp, sorry to burst your unionist bubble.
For polls, go to thursday's herald newspaper as it was a poll commisioned independently giving the snp an 11 point lead ant that was before the wendy scandal broke. Can you imagine what that figure is now? That paper and even the Scotman newspaper had 90 odd percent of the Scottish public saying she should resign. Sounds to me like you are spinning for labour.
As to this unionist commision, imagine excluding a huge swathe of supporters who happened to support snp so in turn makes no mention of independence, obviously this is intended to thwart independence.
Lesson to wendy and co - Must try harder as its not good enough to fool people.
The gang of three as they clearly are, are a disgrace, lining up behind a discredited law breaker against Scottish opinion. It now shows that a vote for any of those three disgraced parties is a vote for the same thing i.e. the plundering of our nation by another.
Its time for the people of Scotland to see the truth and get us out of this mess by insiting on an independance referendum and voting for it!!!
Call another Scottish general election and eliminate the three bad eggs.
The King: "a little less conversation, a little more action please ..."
#75
Yeah I watched a bit of it and you are right, he's got no backbone.
I also watched a bit of newsnight.
When asked what this so called commission was going to cost, the answer from the unholy alliance was a collective 'we don't know'
This money will be coming out of the existing Scottish budget.
I tell you what else stinks, you have Labour, Tory's and the Libs tearing lumps out of each other at Westmister and yet they are all pals in Scotland. I used to vote Labour,
Not anymore!
This is merely an admission that Scotland was sold short under the stewardships of Tony Blair and West Coast Jack; the SNP argument has reached the people and as such we are to be offered a contrived bribe.
Hold on a cotton picking minute that鈥檚 what happened when the SNP started to win seats under Westminster鈥檚 sole control; when the SNP waned Scotland was asset stripped by English companies and English politicians, and at least one Scottish traitor.
How large the bribe will be will be a measure of what Westminster thinks the oil reserves are truly worth; remembering that they have lied on this issue before.
If the SNP is big enough to include devolution within the national conversation, then the unionist parties should be big enough to include independence as an option within the constitutional convention Mark 2. After all if independence is such a minority option as they claim, what have they to fear. Once again the SNP leads and Labour reacts. If Labour had truly led on this issue then they would have done something about it during the 8 years they were in power.
Ton #46 - Scotland exports Whisky to the Far East and these exports have a significant impact on the Scottish economy. As far as I'm aware, the Far East is not part of England and is not subsidised by England. So your claim that Scotland's economy depends entirely on England is blatantly untrue. As to the rest of your comments, you may have lived in Scotland and England, but you are equally ill informed about either country.
There is nothing racist about Scotland wanting independence. Claiming that it is racist merely illustrates how bereft of merit the Unionist argument really is.
Just wrote a thank you letter to the Guardian for Iain MacWhirter's piece "Long journey into night". Glad to see that there are journalists with the guts to tell the truth. On that day you were busy telling us all about Wendy's "subtle" and "thoughtful" contributions to Scottish life. This was three days after she had admitted having her fingers in the till. Why don't you give MacWhirter a call and ask him how to write a decent article?
C.L.H. #70. If you bottle and distribute whatever substance you're obviously inhaling, perhaps there would be less heart-wrenching all round.
I'm sure the teachers in Scotland (who are paid more than their English counterparts) absolutely loved the PFI funded school building programme. After all, buying on the never-never is great.
As for your jibe about experience - just what experience of running a country does your pin-up Wendy actually have? Her last stint as a cabinet minister wasn't exactly a time of milk and honey in Scotland, now was it?
#84
The motion passed by parliament instructs Scottish Parliament Corporate Body (SPCB) to provide the resources for the commission. Though, in reality further resources may come from the UK Parliament and Whitehall who have signified their cooperation. Any extra money required by the SPCB comes out of the financial settlement from Westminster before it passes to the Scottish Government. Therefore the Scottish Government will receive slightly less money than they had planned.
The 鈥楴ational Conversation' has never been approved by our elected Parliament, So I suggest that the Government make up for the lower funding by scrapping it and giving their backing to the Commission which has.
The 'National Conversation' is not up and running as some posts have claimed, what is 鈥榰p and running鈥 is an e-consultation on what form that Conversation will take.
A further criticism that keeps coming up is that the Commission鈥檚 remit prevents it from recommending independence. I think we should note that the 鈥楴ational Conversation鈥 is only ever going to result in a recommendation for independence. The Commission will be far more open to ideas than the 鈥楥onversation鈥
We know the majority of people in Scotland want more powers for the Parliament so let鈥檚 talk about what these should be. In a proportional system like Scotland, politics is about searching for consensus and compromise so lets do it.
Robbie #91 - In what way is the Commision far more open to ideas than the "Conversation" when the "Conversation" includes all options and the Commission will only include those options sanctioned by Westminster?
You talk about searching for consensus and compromise yet the Unionists have already stated that "only" 24% of the population want independance and that's why it's not included as an option for the Commission. Where's the compromise and consensus in ignoring nearly a quarter of the electorate? Or, like most Unionists, do you believe compromise and consensus is a one way street?
Excellent article by Iain MacWhirter, summing it all up nicely. Read it here
Donald #90,
No, not in my experience. The PFI funded schools are not well designed or well built.
Rooms are too small and the science labs use peripheral benches which is more dangerous than island benches but cheaper to implement.
Heating is now controlled by Ammey (in Glasgow anyway) so pupils are often cold even in their new buildings.
Dinner halls were made too small for the number of pupils (although Jamie Oliver has helped there).
All the PFI buildings I've seen use the dinner hall as an assembly hall. This causes trouble at exam time as there is no place to set up the exam desks. Jannies constantly have to move them around.
Primary schools are moving toward open plan designs. This causes distraction. Events in one class can be seen and heard by all the others.
Victorian schools are better. They should have been refurbished properly but then the politicians wouldn't have been able to point to all the new schools they had built.
I haven't looked into pay and conditions on either side of the border as you seem to have done. In a free market we would then expect English teachers to flood north.
Scottish Labour = cretins of *intense* luminosity.
When oh when will Scotland rid itself of such spineless, defeatist, dual-tongued hypocrites?
Remember simple truths lie behind the failings of a party, that simply CANNOT act in a progressive manner for the country. It's NOT, and never will be, in a position to do so. Amazingly, it really is that simple.
Look at eight years of Lab-lib 'administration'.
Look at the 'balance' of UK politics this last thirty years.
Has a unionist stance ever provided anything like fair and proper representation to the people of these islands? Even know, Brown's knackered political orrery undermines the ENGLISH directly. And I remember Thatcher.
There鈥檚 always comic relief I guess?
Time and time again this curious unionist 'democracy' is unwilling to put the 'non-event' that is a hard-core 25% vote for independence to the polls.
If such opinion in Scotland is soooooo very weak. If there's really nothing to worry about, as Alexander the Salamander and that invertebrate Nicol Stephen keep telling us, then WHY is it - quite simply - not open for discussion?
Lab/Libs/Cons sicken me. Enemies in London, with Scottish Labour staunchly anti-'more powers' in Scotland pre-election.
Now, it seems, all the unionists are chasing 'more powers' - TOGETHER - in a half-hearted bid to upset the Scottish party elected by the nation. This merely underlines to the Scottish voting electorate the duplicity behind the unionist parties - and the Lab/Libs in particular.
On another note, shame, shame, SHAME on the 大象传媒 for not publishing anything about:
* report on the opinion poll.
* report on FM's questions
* Anything positive the Scottish Government does
Not a jot, though there's room to always tow the Labour party line. Blerghhh.
I am TIRED of 'British' this and that on the mass media. From the subtle to the sublime.
If I ever have to see another programme with that Titchmarsh telling me how great 'Britain' is, I'll wretch.
In all seriousness, I, like many, voted a nationalist government in.
How about the slightest modicum of sensitivity for the mood of the nation? It's bordering on the offensive...
Its such a shame that whenever a politician comes up with an idea that may benefit the people, all attention falls on other matters. SNP supporters and MSP's need to give up on the whole 'Wendy's illegal donations' episode and get back to the questions in hand. Its fair to say that it becomes a bit tedious after a while when every SNP orientated response to opposition ideas is 'wendy's illegal donations', if this is the only answer you have to questions then yuor position should be reconsidered.
As a Scot, I would like to see independance eventually, however I have no confidence in the SNP, their members or their leader who seem to avoid all sensible conversation and ideas with the usual 'Independance is best' answer, and whilst I dont agree with our English counterparts when the say Scotland needs England financially, I would welcome a study into just how the SNP feel Scotland could prosper financially independant from the UK...no doubt the SNP will come up with ' We have Oil' but Alex doesnt seem to account for the fact that that is a finite resource that is fast depleting, perhaps he will rely on his new best friend Mr Trump to help Scotland financially.
Surely its time for Brian Taylor to put on his SNP badge if not it is time he started to ask some searching questions of slippery Salmon, who in there right mind could defend a referendum such as the afore mentioned slippery has proposed. Let`s hope Sotland wakens up to Mr Take A Way and no delivery before it is too late and this will only happen when people like Taylor in the media start asking some pertent qestions and the Scotish media releases its self from the porocol fantasy land.
Labour鈥檚 Jackie Baillie has attacked the National Conversation as 鈥榓 talking shop at the taxpayer鈥檚 expense鈥 鈥 even as her own party launches the dubious 鈥榃endy Commission鈥, which has no popular remit or value, at yet further taxpayer鈥檚 expense, and whose primary authority is derived from its endorsement from London by Gordon Brown!
If that wasn鈥檛 hypocritical enough, Labour鈥檚 conference assault on the SNP was absurdly based on the SNP鈥檚 鈥榬ight wing鈥 policies in government, as against Labour鈥檚 (wait for it!) 鈥榮ocialist鈥 values!
Let鈥檚 get this straight. Wasn鈥檛 Labour the party that went to such desperate pains to eradicate traditional socialism from its ranks in order to regain power at Westminster? 鈥 And which has since driven through policies of such capitalist audacity as to make Thatcher blush??!!
Are we now to believe that Gordon 鈥 a man who could not even resist publicly demonstrating his personal admiration for Thatcher, and who embraces illegal wars and nuclear weapons 鈥 has somehow flicked a big switch, or by some other cryptic means, turned his party back to socialism??
And while New Labour has long since crafted itself into the New Tories, even the 鈥榪uality press鈥 points out that the SNP Government has enacted more social-democratic policies in 10 months than Labour ever did in 10 years.
So, given that we already have the National Conversation and even another Constitutional Commission, which are both open enough to allow wide-ranging debate on all constitutional options 鈥 what exactly is the purpose of the Wendy Commission (?) 鈥 other than a desperate attempt to close down any informative discourse on independence, and to shore up Labour鈥檚 dwindling support?
And when this unionist Commission reports its conclusions, will they have the decency to allow the Scottish people to decide their constitutional future?
Or, as seems more likely, will the whole self-serving, Labour-controlled exercise turn out to be yet another damp political squib?
Labour鈥檚 Jackie Baillie has attacked the National Conversation as 鈥榓 talking shop at the taxpayer鈥檚 expense鈥 鈥 even as her own party launches its dubious 鈥榃orking Party 鈥搒lash-Commission鈥, which has no clear remit or value, at yet further taxpayer鈥檚 expense, and whose primary authority is derived from its endorsement from London by Gordon Brown!
If that wasn鈥檛 hypocritical enough, Labour鈥檚 conference assault on the SNP was absurdly based on the SNP鈥檚 鈥榬ight wing鈥 policies in government, as against Labour鈥檚 (wait for it!) 鈥榮ocialist鈥 values!
Let鈥檚 get this straight. Wasn鈥檛 Labour the party that went to such desperate pains to eradicate traditional socialism from its ranks in order to regain power at Westminster? 鈥 And which has since driven through policies of such capitalist audacity as to make even Thatcher blush??!!
Are we now to believe that Gordon 鈥 a man who could not even resist publicly demonstrating his personal admiration for Thatcher, and who embraces illegal wars and nuclear weapons 鈥 has somehow flicked a big switch, or by some other cryptic means, turned his party back to socialism??
And while New Labour has long since crafted itself into the New Tories, even the 鈥榪uality press鈥 points out that the SNP Government has enacted more social-democratic policies in 10 months than Labour ever did in 10 years.
So, given that we already have the National Conversation, and even a pre-existing Constitutional Commission, which are both open enough to allow wide-ranging debate on all constitutional options 鈥 what exactly is the purpose of the 鈥榃endy Commission鈥 (?) 鈥 other than a desperate attempt to close down any informative discourse on independence, and to shore up Labour鈥檚 dwindling support?
And when this unionist 鈥楥ommission鈥 reports its (rigged) conclusions, will they have the decency to allow the Scottish people to decide their constitutional future?
Or, as seems more likely, will the whole self-serving, Labour-controlled exercise turn out to be yet another damp political squib?