On the Polish road
After six hours on the road and nearly 200km to go, I have some sympathy with Poland鈥檚 road lobby. I鈥檓 going to investigate the Rospuda Valley, where because of plans to build a bypass around the town of Augustow, to complete a new motorway. After complaints to the European Union, construction has been stopped until the European Court of Justice has made a ruling.
There are of course dual carriageways in Poland but many roads are two-lane, some of them with narrow hard shoulder areas to each side. After furiously beeping one car that appeared to be heading straight for me, I was gently told the rule of the road here is to swing over on to the hard shoulder to allow overtaking. I think I鈥檓 getting the hang of it but it鈥檚 a perilous business.
We鈥檝e travelled past beautiful lakes and woods but the most common sight is the back of a lorry. I didn鈥檛 know there were so many lorries in the world. At the moment we are stuck behind what appears to be a four-wheel tractor with a flat-bed back. We are the third car in a convoy overtaking it but a people carrier is making a foolhardy manoeuvre and overtaking the other cars as well. (No, I鈥檓 not driving as I write this.)
The journey, and my temper, were enlivened by a detour of some four hours to interview a minister. His spokesman assured us he spoke excellent English and did interviews in English. Indeed, his English is fluent. But he would only speak in Polish, pointing out that it was a very beautiful language. Indeed it is, but not many listeners of Radio 4鈥檚 PM programme understand it, and that鈥檚 who we are doing the interview for.
Of course, I鈥檓 perfectly happy for politicians to refuse to speak English out of national pride or caution about their use of language but had I known I would have interviewed another minister in Warsaw in Polish, and saved myself a 6am start and a drive to Augustow that in the end took nearly 14 hours, with breaks.
Anyway, enough whining from me. His argument was that the motorway wouldn鈥檛 damage this landscape and the unique peat bog was only preserved in the first place by man鈥檚 action in building a dam and canal in1823 and trenches dug during the war.
Many Poles want the road, and I am told don鈥檛 like what they see as EU 鈥渋nterference鈥.
I鈥檒l put that to the environmentalists when I see them, tomorrow or the next day.
In the meantime what about this magazine cover as more evidence of a common Polish attitude towards the Germans... a picture of Hitler standing outside the modern German parliament with the headline, 鈥淲ho did the Germans steal their wealth from?鈥
Mark's report from the Rospuda Valley, the first of three on the European Union鈥檚 role in environmental protection, will be aired on the PM programme and published simultaneously on the 大象传媒 News website on Friday.
I鈥檓 Mark Mardell, the 大象传媒's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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sorry, my contry is...
comic... ironic.. paranoid.
Excellent observations from the Circus of EU - Poland as it is under rule of paranoic team of Kaczynscy Brothers. The present government of Poland is the reason why I am ashamed to be Polish. They are wasting time and money in deliberate exploitation of history for their propaganda while the vital matters (like roads) are as they are described by Mr. Mardell. Please know that MAJORITY of Poles that I know are totally supporting and thankful for the EU pressure that stopped the ecological crime of building the Rospuda "highway".
polish attitude about germans?
if you were lee history ignorant you would know how Poland and polish economy suffered from germans and soviets invasion. churchill agreed to give basically poles to stalin after WWII just for stalin to help stop nazis.
Poland would be developped as Spain or any western country if not horrible invasion by germans and the fact that this country was left alone by aliens. see:warsaw uprising for example. or mostly jalta conference!
There is much to do about roads in Poland and there is much to do about wildlife protection. Because we still have wildlife here (unlike most countries of Western Europe). Joining EU could be a factor for acceleration in both fields. But also many workers and specialists from construction idustry emigrated to UK for a better pay. Thanks to property boom (partly fuelled by speculative investors from UK and other "old" EU countries) prices of construction are soaring. Boosting trade and business activity related to EU accession results also in boosting lorry trafic.
I agree with the author. Travelling through Poland by a car is a nightmare. The roads are mostly two-lane and their quality is very bad, there are lots of holes in them. There are only a few hundreds kilometres of motorways. Additionally the driving style of Poles is very dangerous and risky; there are lot of serious accidents as a result.
I honestly dissuade foreign visitors to visit Poland by car. I鈥檓 Pole living near the south border of country. When holidays come I cross the border and travel south, where the roads are much better.
Well I think the title is not translated correctly. It says "From whom they took the wealth away". It is minor difference, but the title suggest Poland is not wealth country because of war, not what Germany become reach because of it.
Of course it is compliantly stupid anyway as current situation is result of 50 years communism, not 5 years war.
But if you see something like this please don't be fulled by some government propaganda. I'm sure most Polish people see it this way. Remember what Poland is one of most pro-EU country, and most people have nothing against Germans.
Anyway, there are so many interesting things happening in Poland right now, what I'm surprise you found Rospuda and Poland-Germany relations interesting right now.
What about situation in parliament? Is Poland again on edge of coup d'etat like in 1981, as oppositions says? Or maybe "mafia structures" are attacking government?
How you see it?
Many people support the green movement action (in this case). The people that want this road are mostly the people living in this area, the traffic over there is terrible, with the noise, pollution, lack of safety...
Politicians don't want to use English, that is common in France, Germany as well.
The attitude shown in the newspaper is the attitude of current government and old people, but not majority of people.
Driving in Poland is really exciting, that is correct. Foreigners with weak heart should watch out! Lack of motorways is one of the reasons that are slowing down our growth.
The magazine should have a shot of Stalin on the front. The Iron Curtain was the seam running through Europe which dictated all wealth. Or wherever did the French, Belgians and 鈥 Luxemburgers "get their wealth from?"
Still: sticking it to the Germans is a truly pan European passtime so nothing new there!
I think I missed something... I was reading about the Rospuda Valley and then suddenly I come to the end of the article and theres a comment about "common Polish attitudes" to the Germans. Was the inclusion of this really necessary? It just goes to further non-Poles bad opinion of the Polish, when in fact this so called "common attitude" is no at all so common...
I enjoy very much driving in Poland. It is really exciting, especially overtaking other cars when another car is coming just in front of you;-).
Perhaps Mark's slightly forlorn trek stumbles upon a question not always asked by those demanding new transport infrastructure projects: "Is my journey really necessary?"
a direct answer is possible to the question - from where the germen took their wealth: they took it from the same source that the polish people took it - from god.Divinity is a tough boss - it makes us people not equal but different.The germen are rich by their own character - but poland has nothing to be shame about with its tradition,with its people.Once every country can function for just what it is - the corporation in the EU will be the best,as a completion between the differntiations and not as rivals or enemies that exclude each other.The polish people are goldish-heart people - great potential.You can make it great,polish people - don't be depressed by bad rumours!and don't hate the others but go together with them!
I took my family to visit Poland by car soon after the fall of the Berlin wall. Never again! It really was a nightmare. Scary driving, with cars on two way roads often driving with two wheels in the ditch.
It was impossable to find a garage willing or capable of making repairs to my BMW and garages selling led free petrol were thin and far between.
Bad roads and bad driving were at the time of course the least of my problems. Things obviously must have improved since then but a memory of that nighmare trip to Poland still lingers on.
Not everyone from the UK is ignorant of what has happened to Poland over the last 60 years. Just as we know Poland still has amazing ecological sites that do need to be preserved. But, as a Brit who calls Poland home, I know only too well how desperately something need to be done to the road infrastructure here - for safety reasons if nothing more. I shall never again complain about the state of the roads in London.
Poland should tell the EU to get stuffed and build that road regardless.
Whoever wants to have the new Reich meddling in their affairs anyway? We Dutch are sick of them.
Only nutcases are still pro EU. How can anyone fail to spot the coup d'etat that has been meticulously prepared and is about to be sprung?
The EU is not a superstate but it is a supergovernment. Poles would do well to leave while they still can.
Mark, you turn the once interesting blog into a permanent polish nightmare. Instead of further stories about their past, help them to get over their past and don't stir up old problems (Russians, Germans, EU, language, wealth) all the time. It is so over for the rest of Europe. Your text is boring and you harm polish interests. You offer a platform for their paranoid twins, that's all.
Please no more polish blogs until the twins have gone!!!!
The feelings behind the Polish newspaper's title are understandable. Had it not been for the Germans' deeds in WW2, Poland would most probably not have had to live under the yoke of communism and would most probably be more or less as prosperous a country as Germany or France (including decent roads). I strongly believe Poland is on a good way to becoming it soon, though.
So as a German I don't blame Poles at all for putting Adolf Hitler on magazine covers. I might feel tempted to ask why do you still feel the need to do this today, in 2007, stifling the conflict forever but, again, quite understandable, there are open wounds that are far from being healed. We should now reach our hands out to each other rather than throwing arrows, but it is much easier said than done.
The roads in Poland are terrible! This is mostly due to the foreign trucks that are travelling through the country for free and ruining the roads. A new road will not be any different. What needs to happen is for these trucks to get charged a large fee to travel the polish roads. These fees can then be used to repair the roads.
Arndt (#8), no one is twisting your arm to read this 'polish nightmare' blog. If you don't like it, don't read it (and stop whining), it's that simple. There is surely plenty of stuff for you to read elsewhere. I, for one, like it, so Mark, more Polish blogs please. Poland has a lot of baggage and blogs like this one are quite helpful for all of us to thrash things out instead of sweeping them under the carpet. Didn't you know, Arndt, that bottling things up is not good for the health?
Nobody is perfect, not even the Germans. However, if the Russians could be brought up to the same standard, the world, or at least East Europe, would be a much better place.
Mark,
there you go again, you show a copy of the wprost and start talking about german-polish relationships-and in the article you actually say the magazine displays" a common Polish attitude to the Germans" - where do you get that from? I have lived in Poland for 7 years and the vast majority of people i have met do not subscribe to your point of view- but you visited for one or two days- your previous article on the subject of German -Polish relationships didn't even mention Willy Brandts apology(dec 1970) I thought this article was supposed to be about about the environment and traffic congestion- not your ill informed agenda trying to make the Poles look like fools and German haters!
There surely is a problem with the attitude of some people (including the infamous Brothers in charge of the country) towards Germany in our country. I have some doubts though whether it's fair to mention it just at the end of an article on a different topic, without any specific information. It might sound as thou me or some of my friends were prejudiced against the Germans. Well, we are not. In fact some of us are still quite civilised out here, regardless of what you can see on some magazine covers.
I hope that the magazine doesn't express the views of the majority of the Polish people, the same way I hope Marcel's comments (15) doesn't represent the position of the majority of the Dutch. Such pettiness and small minded attitudes from nationalists will only lead us down to a dark world.
The only way to a better future is for people to start assuming responsibility for their own situation and stop blaming others.
That being said, kudos to Mark for not shying away from showing how small and ugly nationalistic instincts truly are.
Thomas Patricio
Toronto Canada
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the reason for the EU to have a voice about what is done in the Rospuda valley is that Poland itself designated it a nature protection area (which is of course linked to EU wildlife protection funds). I'm afraid they can't have their cake and eat it (although that's a concept the Kaczynscies don't seem able to grasp).
Poland has a dense railroad network. A part of the money should be spent on railroad upgrades. After all it is one of the least expensive mode of transportation.
Instead of sending tousands of tracks across the country and clogging narrow arteries within cities' limits, goods should be sent by train ?
I would be curious to hear what if anything is done to offset heavy road traffic by using railroads. Yes, I know that track width in Lithuania and other conuntries are wider.
I've just come back from beautiful preserve near Rospuda. Locals are very sensitive to any words starting with "ECO". When I was asking for a bus stop of "Ecolines bus transit" I have heard we do'not like ecologist here.
People have enough of deaths on the road, smog and noise.
reading the commentaries, i see that most of my fellow citizens are ashamed of their government.having a democracy in a country gives opportunity for everyone to choose a representative,so i cannot criticize them.it is just that most of the things the kaczynskis have been accused for were rather unsignificant.democracy is kept,freedom of speech-bigger than ever,economy-boost like never before.
i just don't care what the rest of the europe thinks - and i am now doing a phd in germany.i have a broad view on what is going on there and i am proud to be a pole.we are a country that is unique and we shouldn't look for acceptance in other places - that shows only our weakness.in a few years it will pass and europe will see us prosper beyond expectations.
"Who did the Germans steal their wealth from?"
The Jews, the same people the Poles stole theirs from.
After the war, it was stolen from the American taxpayer who rebuilt West Germany in hopes it wouldn't start yet a third world war in one century. Tough luck for Poland being on the wrong side in the cold war, that's the breaks.
Poland would be far more developed if ... well, ... if Poles shut up and worked hard instead of blaming all of their troubles on Germans, Russians or (imaginary) Jews. As a Pole, I'm grateful that some Germans like Manuela (above) find the deplorable stunts of my fellow Poles understandable and forgivable. I find them hard to stomach.
As for the road: The real issue ought to be environmental protection not national ego. The EU has it right.
Looking at all this from a little afar, not having to put up with bad roads. Knowing and having known some Germans face to face, I sometimes wonder if it came to conflict, that for the greater good of everybody, if it may not be wiser to shoot first some of my on Polish people, and remove those causing troublle and conflict... avoiding a greater one.
My opinion on Poland is that it should exclusively concentrate on building a prosperous country with a strong economy. This should improve everythig else with it. Yes, EU does interfere, but so it is a part of being in a union with the others. Any kind of relationship involves it, give and take. Hardly something to complain about on principle.
Finally, the title means even more "Whom the Germans took away prosperity from". It does not accuse anybody of stealing, but makes a point upon the damage and consequences of WWII. Yes, one has to wonder why this is being brought up so much... probably political point scoring rather than "lest we forget"...
Personally, after reading the comments here i am much heartened by the polish offerings in particular. Criticising the inactions, and boorishness of the polish twins doesn't mean that criticism is levelled at the polish people, anymore than criticising the actions of an immoral british government is a general condemnation of the british people, or tarring all russians with the evil brush of the georgian, Stalin, and his cohorts, is the right thing to do. And the highway in question is an example of of the pressure of balance, instead of the gleeful rush towards profit making ventures, and the infrastucture required to feed them. It would seem, after perusing more than one article about the battle between the environment protection lobby, and the polish government, that common sense has prevailed. I have some degree of sympathy for those who have to bear the brunt of noisy traffic in their midst, but for any problem there's always more than one solution, and it would appear that the polish government tried to take the cheapest option, instead of considering the impact on the the future of poland, and its potential for preserving large tracts of relatively unspoiled natural assets for future generations and guests of the country to enjoy.
I think the EU has acted on behalf of those in Poland who wanted the area in question preserved, and has demonstrated that the EU project, for all its faults, has an important role to play in the check and balance required to hold off idealistic, and in most cases, profit driven expediency at the expense of the living environment, not only for humans, but other species too.
Hmm... someone from the Deep West of Europe kvetching about the lack of a dual carriageway - as if it was some kind of right or absolutely necessarily thing to promote economic growth.
One of the main reason there so many lorries on this route is because it is cheaper to transport freight by road then by rail, and this is because road haulers pay much less than the real costs of their use of the roads (one lorry does as much damage as 100,000 cars), not to mention the cost of pollution and crashes.
Because the the Rospuda Valley is a unique part of Europe (not just Poland... birds, carbon emissions, etc. don't recognize borders), and because a high number of Polish citizens are protesting the construction of the highway, Brussels certainly has an obligation or at least the right to stop the construction of this road, but as a complement it also needs to prioritize the railways as the core of an intermodal freight AND passenger network, all the way through Poland to the Baltic States.
The biggest problem in Rosupda valley issue is that it is widely recognized as a political problem - argue between good left wing 'greens' against bad conservative twins. In fact, it is more a problem of ordinary people living nearby Rospuda in the city of Augustow. As there are no motorways in Poland (yes - we haven't got them because Soviets did not want them for us. strange? I guess not - it was common attitude of Soviets toward Poles), all traffic goes through the city center killing dozens of citizens every year. Just to give you a flavour of life there - please make a 30 seconds stop on any motorway in your country and imagine that people of Augustow live like that 24h per day, 7days per week, 365 days per year. Don't they deserve to live in the normal conditions? The only political aspect here is that the twins are heavily supported in Poland because they see the problems of ordinary people like those in Augustow and not because they see Germany as a threat for Poland.
And the 'ecologists' in Rospuda - in fact, the minority of them has any life science background. It is probably the reason that none of them want to accept that the scientists from the University of Warsaw, who has been doing extensive research in the valley for the last 30 years, don't see the motorway in Rospuda as a very harmful for the nature.
By the way - do you know that the water in Rospuda river is highly polluted? Wouldn't be better to protest against the fact that there is no water-cleaning plant there?
A lot people say the Twins aren't representative of Poland or Polish people. I beg to differ, since both of these guys were elected by the Polish people they obviously do represent the views of a lot of Polish people (though maybe not the more urbane people in Warsaw and other big cities).
A lot of Polish people obviously still feel resentment towards Germany and think they have been and are unfairly treated by the rest of Europe.
It isn't productive. Instead of harping on about past injustices (most countries have them) the Polish people should learn from Germany and take a hard look at its own history while focusing on the future.
Augustow is choked with lorries because this is the most popular route between Western Europe and Russia. Most of the lorries are in fact in transit through Poland to Lithuania, Latvia and then Russia. They don't go further south via Brest in Belarus to Russia (which has better roads, inlcuding dual carriageways all the way through Belarus), as the Belarusian customs are a nightmare. It is quicker and cheaper to go through the Baltic states to Moscow.
A second factor is that any freight going east from Poland by rail has to be transferred between two trains as the Lithuanian, Belarus and Ukraine railways are a wider five-foot guage.
The Augustow project is part of the Via Baltic raod from Warsaw to helsinki through the Baltic States. Being paid for by the good taxpayers of the EU.
Te ebiggest problems in Poland is that spending on roads has lagged behind the rapid growth in car ownership since 1990. Everyone in Poland wants a car, and economic growth means there is more demand for goods, that need to be transported by lorry.
I like Germany and the Germans but after I began travelling to Munich regularly and comparing their wealth and infrastructure (trains, roads etc) with that in England, I will confess to feeling rather jealous of it all.
It would seem that both countries finished the war poor but that Germany got a huge amount of reconstruction aid to help it recover whereas the UK only finished paying off its debt to the USA last year. The German's rebuilt their bomb damaged industry whereas we just patched ours up and continued as before. This may have been a sensible thing to do at the time and may have stopped us having a third world war which may well have happened if Germany had been forced to pay humiliating reparations as they were after the first world war, but it still strikes me as incredibly unfair.
The Poles suffered even more at the hands of the Germans and were let down by the Western allies in being handed to the Soviets (not that we could have done anything else - only Hitler thought that we would be prepared to go to war with Russia) so they do have a point and it they want to make Germany feel guilty for another generation then I wouldn't want to deny them that pleasure.
Poland is beautiful country with unique part of environment. Yes it is true, BUT. There is always some 鈥榖ut鈥. Whether living In Poland can鈥檛 be more comfortable? Whether Poland is sentenced on being old part of Europe with old roads which have bad influence on level and safeness of living citizens? If the motorways were build now In the 鈥榦ld eu鈥, there probably would consider big problems due to environmental issue. The problem is complicated so eu shouldn鈥檛 stop develop infrastructure in new countries, but try to help to keep balance between people and environment end solve problems connected with that. Those two worlds are common and people have right to better live.
Mark
Good to have you back!
If the Poles want their road they should be free to have their road! It shouldn't be interfering self-righteous Brussels' business at all. And if the appaling "not-the-Constitution" reform treaty goes ahead, there will be many more arguments like this as elected national Parliaments become powerless, & unelected & un-removable bureaucrats in Brussels decide even more of what they think is good for us.
So only regular referendums in every EU country can stop this seemingly inexecrable spread of Brussels' power. Naturally the UK should lead the way on this, & have a referendum on the "not-the-Constitution" reform treaty as soon as possible after its final text is decided.
I would be very interested in reading professional analysis on true costs comparison between railroad transportation and road transportation in the current economical condition in Central and Eastern European countries.
The analysis that should consider / account for damages as mentioned in post number 31.
According to " Rzeczpospolita" Nr200 Poland will spend 24.4 mld euro of EU funds out of the total 42.5 mln euros on roads till year 2020. In the same newspaper one can find article describing conflicts between regional railroad organizations of PKP (Polish National Railroad).
A. Zylinski reperesenting Warmia and Mazury region is denying that railroad transportation is profitable and adding that public money and all the donation from European Union spent so far on railroad renovation would have to be returned if regional PKP was to be returned to PKP Intercity.
As usuall devil is in the details. I maintain that after careful calculation and accounting true exploitation costs of road/ railroad the railroad transportation should be much less expensive than road transport.
Heavy freight cannot be checked properly because of the lack of the weight stations. Proper pricing of the road traffic could direct discusion on the right tracks.
"Does the EU have the right to tell Poland where to build roads?" Perhaps you could ask whoever thus summarised your article on the 大象传媒-News-Politics webpage why they deliberately chose to imply that your focus is on EU autocracy rather than than conflicting transport / environmental priorities. To answer the question nevertheless, the EU should have a say on how EU structural funds are spent. They are intended to help develop regional economies but this is provided that other EU objectives (environmental and otherwise) are not comprimised. A lack of EU 'interference' in the past has led to abuses of funding, in southern Italy for example where local authorities gave contracts to local construction companies to build unnecessary roads.
In reading Michael's post which seeks to justify the hostility felt by some Poles towards today's Germany, I am reminded of a Russian maxim: 'If you forget the past, you lose one eye. If you think only of the past, you lose your sight'.
Mark on comment 27 wrote that Germans and also Poles got their wealth from Jews, and after the war from Americans who payed the rebuilding of Germany. To my knowledge this is not true.
People usually think that Germany was totally destroyed after the war. It's true that the major cities where badly damaged, some like Dresden where almost totally destroyed. That however doesn't mean that the industrial machine was destroyed. After the war most of the German infrastructure and industries were still intact or in need of small repairs.
Now somebody might ask why on then after the war Germany fell to poverty if not their infrastructure and industries where not hit by the war. The answer is simple: Morgenthau plan and disabling of currency system. Morgenthau plan was a to dismantle industries and make Germany agricultural state. After implementation of Morgenthau plan (or JCS1067) was stopped, the German economy quickly recovered.
As what comes to Marshall aid, it should be noted that the aid came to Germany as loans which it paid back. The Marshall aid did help Germany to recover, but as I mentioned earlier, the infrastructure and industries where there, the people were there, so recovery would have happened even with out the loans after the restrictions on German economy had been lifted.
I also would like to note that even before the first world war, there was prosperity gap between Germany and areas consisting the war after Poland. Actually there was a prosperity gap inside Germany too: eastern states where considerable less industrialized and less prosperous than the northern and western states of Germany.
On this background it's little silly to even ask a question on where the Germans got their wealth: answer is by working and building their country. The same will happen in Poland, the question is does attitudes like the one expressed in the magazine, put the day, when Poland is in the same economic level as old EU countries, back 10 or 20 years.
The problem with Rospuda valley is simple. The new dual-carriageway should be built as quickly as possible because PEOPLE DIE THERE. Anyone who delays this project increases the death toll. It is sad that these days, people who value peat bogs, trees and butterflies more than human life have often more say than those whose lives are involved and at stake. If EU was not involved in this dispute, I am sure the current Polish government would be capable of handling this situation swiftly, and the eco-terrorists would be ejected from the building site. Now, unfortunately it seems we will loose three years for redirecting the route during which time dozens of people will die in the accidents. However, the "unique" peat bog, "unique" trees and "unique" birds will be safe... in the expense of unique people.
I am astonished by the level of criticism against the government of Mr Kaczynski appearing on this forum. Despite the numerous mistakes they made, in my opinion, as well as many of my friends, it is the best government we have since at least 1939. They receive plenty of criticism from some Polish media (mostly owned by former spooks whose businesses flourished under post-communist governments) and sadly to large extent my generation has been infected with this propaganda.
The cover of Wprost (who are well-known for their shouting covers) shows us one thing that many people criticising Mr Kaczynski's "fascist and totalitarian" government forget - we have a free press in Poland. I would risk the statement that the press in Poland is even more free than in some Western European countries such as Britain, where you cannot cross the limits drawn by political correctness. The variety of daily and weekly papers representing different streams of opinion is really impressive and this government has no influence whatsoever on any of them, in particular on Wprost, which often criticise them. On the contrary to the previous commentators and Mark, I made an effort and read the Wprost article which refers to this week cover. Having read that, I can hardly imagine how it can be considered controversial by anyone. It mostly talks about the treaties in Potsdam and 2+4 and their legitimacy in terms of international law and it also quotes some sums of money Germany acquired during the war and had to pay after the war finished. It concludes that the present tensions between the two countries were caused mostly by the claims of resettled Germans, who demand the return of their properties left in Poland and the German government position on these claims.
What a relief to hear someone like jp (26) after a long break filled with self-defeating, hardly socially or politically aware Poles that are proud to spit on their own country, of which they are sometimes so loudly ashamed. Scoial and economical process in a place with such a twisted history and situation like Poland is not be anylysed within and hour over a pint (the 10th). regards.
Interesting article Mark, though it is unclear which is the central theme; bad roads, environmental dilemmas or Polish-German relations?
As far as infrastructure is concerned, Poland will have to get its act together pretty quickly. Ownership of private cars is low but growing rapidly while the infrastructure is lagging badly behind. Currently only 260 people per 1000 own a car in Poland, compared to say Luxembourg where the ratio is 660 to 1000. Poland faces a major challenge in a race to avoid a total breakdown of the road transport system.
Ok, seriously people must stop treating the magazine "Wprost" seriously. It does not matter that its a colored weekly - in reality its a rag, and nothing more. If everybody took seriously what the Daily mail wrote (especially before and important england-germany football match), we'd already have had a third world war....
I have just spent 4 hours travelling 250 kms (which is about 150 miles, I think, but I'm not very good at UK distances) and until recently did the journey by train, but since the train is even worse than by car (there is no restaurant car, the toilets stink and have no toilet paper, the train is full of drunk national service (!!!!) thugs and no security, and in order to get a seat you have to go first class which costs a fortune) I have given in and bought a small hatchback, much as it pains my ecological principles.
The sad fact is that anyone who lives anywhere near the German border goes across at the earliest opportunity and takes advantage of the proper motorways they have there. Otherwise you can go crazy. The roads are rubbish, the trains disgusting and the planes just expensive and don't go within Poland.
Is it any surprise that there are nearly a million Poles in the UK?
The conclusion of this aritcle:
Poles, do not mention "War", do not build motorways; and you are stupid anyway because you do not have motorways and you do not speak English.
I am Polish living in the USA. No matter what you say here, I love my first homeland. I will always repeat after John Paul II : " Peace with you, Poland, my homeland". I hope you understand it !
I've driven Poland for years and agree it's a nightmare experience comparable with Arab countries. Since Poland became free they've had a succession of prime ministers too many now to add up. The latest who have a chip on their shoulder about their neighbours, will go the same way as the others. To be forgotten as quickly as possible. As many countries have found protecting the environment is important and Poland has good reason to continue. However the good people of Augustow do deserve some respite from the endless stream of trucks. They might consider making the city a truck free zone for certain hours of the day as a way over the problem. Like say between six to ten and again from three to six in the evening. At least they'd be safe from the endless parade of trucks for a while. In the meantime don't hold your breath on the present government doing anything. They're far too busy politicking to be concerned about the people that supposedly lead.
I agree with autor about roads in Poland. Ok. It is very seriously problem in my country.
But I think that our governmenbt do much to improve our roads. The next subject - about first page of polish newspaper: I wonder if autor read this articuls....????? I think that it isn't good way to write about something only form the first page of newspaper. And at the and of my opinion I wnat to say all my countryman- all Polish who wrote here that the worst thing in life is talking or writing about mother land in bad side. It's really sad....that Polish are always talking only bad things about Poland. I think taht our country have many interesting places, culture and other things like in many countries in Europe.
Well, first of all, as you can see Poland needs that motorway. And "Wprost" can write whatever it wants, certainly a cover page does not reflect the view of the whole Polish society. Obviously some still remain sour for history's sake. I don't blame them.
All countries in the EU must work together, but at the same time protect personal interests. all western countries at one point or another, also had these "protected lands" and no one said anything when they built their roads over them, Poland has the same right, now, Poland does not want to build roads on the wetlands, but above. look how much they try to do as little damage as possible, but for some, its just never enough. thats very selfish of them. (EU and these environmentalists) Poland should protect personal interest. after all, whats more important, many people die on these roads, whats more important, life or some ill informed/educated environmentalist??? i also seen some people write that Poland should forget the past. thats on of the dumbest things i have ever heard, the past should never be forgotten, but if anything, forgiven by the Poles.
after all, it was not Poland that started the war. forgetting this fact, would be ignorant. i pity the Poles that see remembering as a fault when it comes to dealing with our neighbors.
another thing. whats the deal with bashing the current president, he did what he promised. build roads, put unemployment down, build up moral, crack corrupt officials that stole millions of dollars, got a fair voice in the EU. Polands mission is not to rule Europe, its goal is to make sure that its treated equally. is that to much to ask for?
Wow, and I just cant believe how a friend told me that highways in Poland were the best....probably he stood in a possition of "my country is better than urs" when now i realize we r not that different...at least im not bluffing, i know the weakness of mine, but he thinks he comes from a high tec-developed top of the top country. No offense to the poles, please no....but reality bites, and u r still far away from ur goal of being as developed as most of the EU countries, stop blaming ur past, and start working now, do u think Japan stood still blaming USA for Hiroshima all these decades? if that were happen, they wouldnt be one of the most developed countries in the world!! anyway, my best wishes....honestly
I'm an Icelander living in Reykjavik, Iceland. Without knowing Polish history in details, I though know that for some 400-500 years ago, the Polish and Lithuanians formed a commonwealth (after the treaty of Lublin, in 1569) and this commonwealth possessed a large territory in Central and Eastern Europe, which they obtained by WAR!!!. The Polish-Muscovite War (1605鈥1618) took place in the early-seventeenth century (between 1605 and 1618) as a row of military conflicts and eastward invasions carried by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, or the private armies and mercenaries lead by the magnates (the Commonwealth aristorcracy), when the Russian Tsardom was torn into a series of civil wars, the time most commonly referred in the Russian history as Time of Troubles, sparked by the Russian dynastic crisis and overall internal chaos. The Poles(and the Lithuanians) have also stolen good and merchendise from Russians, and probably Ukrainans as well, since their empire extended from the Baltic sea to the black sea. People must have suffered like people suffered in Poland and in whole Europe during the WW2. The Poles must stop seeing themselves as the good guy, and the german as the bad guy.
Poles, learn from us Icelanders, we were blackmailed by Danes for 800 year. For 800 YEARS most of my people lived in vain, in total poverty, cottages made from soil (turf) and grass, they were cold, moist and very dark. The Norwegians forces us with weapons to change our religions from the traditional 脕satr煤 of the Vikings, to Christianity. The Danes only brought wheat flour which was no-good because maggot, and they established a monopoly stores in 1664. They litarlly blackmailed us for 800 years.
TOday, after we got independence (in 1944) you never hear people, not even the old people, even mention the time, we were a Danish colony. A lot of Icelanders go to Denmark for further education, and the relation between these two countries has never been so good. It is called FORGIVENESS, and since 75% of Poles are praticing Catholics, it shouldn't be hard for them to forgive. In Iceland, only 4% are practising Christians.
May the luck be with all Poles,
Regards from Iceland.
# 54, I do not know where you learnt history, but I would ask for a refund. Neither the Polish or the Lithuanians did much conquering, as they were too busy fighting off invasions from the powers you mention as attacked. The Lithuanians controlled a very large territory, but they came into posession of it well before the union with Poland. Besides, what Russia (Muscovites or Kievan Rus) claims as its own it also conquered, spreading out from a small heartland... Eastern Poland a tousand years ago was a little like Africa today, tribes got divided into two or more parts, in not always a logical way, as countries established borders through wars. A fair chunk of the dominant tribe that formed Poland, Polanes, ended up under Kievan Rus control and I guess became part of the Ukrainians.
One interesting bit of trivia is that neither Poland or Lituania ever had any kind of overseas colonies despite being a major power for a long time, while other European powers were expanding through conquest and colonisation.
As for forgivness, I think most people are all for it... but it should not be forgetfullness. It seems to be a taboo for some people to mention history. When in other places and on other matters an even much older hisory is being discussed on how it affects the present. Perhaps when people get annoyed is with using history not to learn from but to demand compensation or special treatment...
Another aspect of forgivness is the ongoing nature of Poland's conflict with Russia and Germany... it was not once or twice or thrice that they fought. Perhaps the most devastating war Poland had was a Swedish invasion in the 17th century, when the country lost close to half its population. However, the Poles do not hate the Swedes, or even think about it, because it happened and now is over... not the same for Russians... and still have to wait a generation or so for the Germans.
I think a lot of countries don't like the Germans. The real problem is that in Poland the extremists always hold power. I was in Poland a couple of years ago and it struck me that it was a lot like England in that you could find really poor people but there was also a lot of money about. Perhaps if the Poles copied the Germans and put money into their poor railway infrastructure they wouldnt need to build so many roads.
Haven't been in O艣wi臋cim since the winter of 05 but if the Pole forgets who the German is he is done.
The EU is becoming a meddling curse to Polska.
We may have the Dan-ish Doimino or Brit Domino but we need a Polish Domino as well.
If we forget the lessons of history we are doomed to repeat them... so quit buying the rhetoric and go to O艣wi臋cim before deciding how to vote.
~h~
I think we have all agreed that Polish roads and Polish drivers are very bad. The question is: how to make them better.
Bulding motorways would be convenient, and is necessary, but this will come at an environmental price.
When Germany, France and the UK built their motorways in the 60s and 70s, there were fewer environmental concerns.
Poland has the handicap of having to build motorways while at the same time appeassing the greens.
The Augustow bypass needs to be built. International lorries go through the centre of a country town, where schoolchildren walking home have to contend with huge lorries belching smoke.