Protesting too much on Kosovo
"The more they talk about unity, the more suspicious I am," said a colleague as we left one of the news conferences at the end of this EU foreign ministers' meeting.
It's true that they probably did protest too much about the need for unity after what amounted to a failure to reach a common approach on Kosovo. But this is exactly the sort of practical problem that should worry enthusiasts for a common EU foreign policy.
A crunch is coming over . If there is no agreement on the future of the place by 10 December, the UN deadline, it is likely that Kosovo will declare independence from Serbia. It's also likely the US will immediately recognise it.
Already one Serbian minister is threatening that troops will go in. Few think that is more than sabre-rattling, but such talk is worrying. Russia will back Serbia's refusal to recognise Kosovo. But what will the EU do?
France, Britain and Germany want to recognise it even without UN support. Others, led by Greece and Romania, are opposed.
Common sense might tell you who is going to win that argument, but it's not as easy as you might you think. One foreign minister of the Big Three described the Greek position as "a nightmare".
Those who want to get rid of vetoes in foreign affairs point to these cases. How daft, they say, that Greece can stop the EU's most powerful countries getting their way. But UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband believes it's more important to have a slower, legitimate policy that every single country backs, than a more efficient one that papers over the cracks.
But that is almost a philosophical debate. The problem for those who want the EU to have clout on the world stage is that it will look ridiculous if it cannot reach a common position, or reaches one that looks dithery and peppered with caveats.
But will the Big Three go it alone? The French foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, insists that after Iraq Europe must always be united on big foreign policy issues.
The Bulgarian foreign minister suggests a conference in Sofia could sort things out, though it's hard to see how.
But good news for one of the countries hoping to join the EU.
One male foreign minister from a founder member state nudged colleagues and suggested he would welcome much closer bilateral relations with .
I’m Mark Mardell, the ´óÏó´«Ã½'s North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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This is exactly why it is to important to disband the EU as soon as possible.
The big countries want to ride roughshod over the smaller ones and decide everything between themselves.
Kosovo belongs to Serbia. Those who say Kosovo must be independent should extend the same privilege to Taiwan, Tibet and Kurdistan. But they won't because they are cowards.
All these politicians who want the terrorist movement KLA (which committed ethnic cleansing during the war) to get their way would rather see the Kurds and Tibetans continue to suffer because they want to cozy up to tyrannical Chinese and oppressionist Turks.
Our (Netherlands) policy should be to disagree with France as many times as is practical.
I think the union which Kosova aspires to join in the future, is not going to have an adequate and united response. Regardless of a united or common response by EU Kosova is going to become independent. History tells us of countries record. We don't need common response to cover our foes. It is all about what EU needs now. We are waiting for them to fail on their delusion. If EU does not fail now it will fail when there are greater things at stake.
"Should politics change the dictionary, or should politicians change the language that they use?" Is an important topic for European Union, in fact the biggest problem of EU. Either foreign ministers should hold several conferences or seminars to determine what "union" means, or the ministers should determine another name to call this body, that was created from the European Community. I hope that EU will resolve the problem with its identity and identify the cancer, but "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."
I lived and worked in Macedonia for 8 years, during both the Kosovo and Macedonian wars -- which were both fought because of unresolved Albanian grievances. As usual, there are no absolute angels in this story, but there was in my opinion a verifiable "devil." The Milosevic regime lost any legitimacy, and Serbia as a consequence of his megalomaniacal ambitions lost its right to claim sovereignty over people who do not want to be governed by Belgrade. Yes, there are implications for other parts of Europe and elsewhere (such as Indonesia, where I am now) if Kosovo becomes independent -- either unilaterally or with the EU's blessings. But political borders are arbitrary human constructs that can change. Feelings of belonging can change as well, but not by edict. The vast majority of Kosovar Albanians do not feel they belong to Serbia. Who are the Greeks or Romanians or anyone else, for that matter, to dictate to them that they must belong? Thank you. Eran Fraenkel, Jakarta
I doubt any one would read this, but I have a simple question: why would Greece object to Kosovo's declaration of independence? Is Greece afraid that such a precedent may bode ill for its minorities?
As a kosovan, I cant see no other solution but one that reflects the will of the absolute majority of people in Kosova. Our plight is specific as Kosova was an administrative etnity in Ottoman empire as well as former Yugoslavia which makes is a very specific case and therefore a handful of sceptics from EU have nothing to fear. This is without including barbarian behaviour of the serbian regime in Kosova during the 90's which totally alienated majority kosovans from Serbia. I ask any european if they would accept being part of a country that only few years ago treated them as animals. For majority of kosovans the matter of independence is an issue of basic freedom therefore its a matter of life and death.
I find this article amusing and a bit entertaining. First of all mr. Mandell the time when UK, Germany and France were the "superpowers" of Europe has passed. I know that a lot of folks like you are nostalgic of the time of the great empire but unfortunately it has been over for quite some time, so please get over it. You may not be aware of it yet, but there are many centers of power now in Europe and I am sorry to break the news to you but some of these centers don't involve the traditional powers.
Second, unlike your "superpowers" Greece and Romania are in the balkans and are very aware of the dynamics of this region. We all know very well what happens when "superpowers" try to impose their will in places where they have no clue how their plans will impact the local forces. Does IRAQ ring a bell? So please stop your silly remarks and wake up to the reality. There other power centers in Europe that have to be respected if there is to be a united Europe. Just imagine what will happen to the United States if the "powerful" states i.e California, Texas, New York tried to impose their will on the "weak" states. Do you get the point?
It appears that EU unity is much more important then what the long lasting solutions should be for the region. Throughout the history, Europe was always imposing solutions, more often wrong then right, and later blamed the regional countries, mostly Serbia, for the ultimate failure of Europe's short sighted, non-educated and poor decisions. Even the word 'balkanisation' was invented to label the regional mindset where in fact the most divisions were imposed and mandated by political, economical and propaganda blackmail.
That's why a name European DISUNION would be more appropriate for an organisation which cannot work out common foreign policy, let alone defense policy and create a unified military force capable of actual combat.
Ney, EU cannot even agree on a common energy policy, with its most influencial members signing strategic bilateral agreements (like Germany with Russia re Baltic pipeline) without Brussels agreement and to a disadvantage of other EU members.
The fact is that the Kosovo question is highly polemic and explosive because iit involves ethno-religious ties between the new members of the EU. It’s hard for Orthodox Greece and Romania to recognize the secession of a predominantely-muslim territory from Orthodox Serbia. And even more for Putin's Russia, which is predominantely Orthodox, Slav and highly nationalistic as the same way as Serbia.
But in face of the perils of the collective disapointment of around 2 million Kosovars that want nothing less than independence (and the Serbian army menace to return to the province), the main forces of the West should support the declaration of independence of Kosovo, even if this recognition would provoke bad reactions from Serbia's allies. The long-term stability of the region is more important than sable-ratings and muscle-flexing exercises.
Sir,
I would be interested to know why Romania and Greece are opposed to Kosovo's independence.
For Russia, it has much to with incoming national elections and posturing.
For the US, it is about packing troops away from the balkans, while staking some political points at home on the GWOT.
For the EU 3, it is about preventing a security nightmare if Kosovo is to be independent without being coopted by the EU. The region (central Balkans) is rife with crime, corruption and security issues (human trafficking, terrorism ...) and w/o international aid would likely sink further.
Serbia is playing an emotionally political game to extract as much as possible from both the EU and others, even if loss of Kosovo is seen as unavoidable.
Greece people will soon vote and the presiding coaltion might well lose thx to recent wildfire scandals.
Romania is still very vulnerable to Russian's pressure and is using every diplomatic means to lessen calls from Brussels for judicial reforms and anti-corruption fights.
So apart from trade deals with Serbia and Russia (+ pressure from the latter), what reasons have Romania and Greece to make this crisis worse than it is already ?
After all, we are talking about a major european foreign policy and security issue .....
Yours sincerely,
So is PM Brown about to follow in Blairs footsteps and blindly follow US foreign policy? Because the US think it is ok to rip up UN SC resolutions and undermine the very foundations of international norms and laws that protect the sovereignity of all states does that mean the UK should wholeheartedly follow?
This time they will not be merely by-passing the UN as was the case of Iraq but will be illegally recognising an illegal declaration that that the UNMIK administration is obliged to immediatly nullify since UNSC resolution 1244 reaffirms Serbia's soverignity.
The US might be ok with undermining the UN by tearing up UNSC resolution 1244 which obliges those who formulated and agreed it only 8 years ago to uphold Serbia's soverignity but is this what PM Brown meant about a different way of governing ?
What if the Serbian "sabre rattling" is a reality? How would the UK respond if it felt it's soverignity is under attack ? The Serbs were willing to be bombed for 78 days in 1999 to protect their sovereignity when so many "analysts" suggested they would fold in one day! I guess some "analysts" never learn but were also the same "analysts" who suggested that the Russians were "sabre rattling" when they stated over a year ago that they would block such a US stance followed blindly by the UK in the UN - yet here we are now being told it is ok to rip up UN SC resolutions without even a suggestion that this can't be right!
Has the lesson on embarking upon war without a clear strategy not been learnt from the bombardment of Serbia in 1999 and more recently Iraq? Is PM Brown willing to put his job on the line if this is not merely Sabre rattling?
It just shows that Europe cannot operate politically as a single superstate. The cultures and attitudes differ widely across countries. The input of Russia and the USA do not help matters either.
So while all the sabre rattlying and debates go in in plush offices, it will be the citizens of Kosovo who will suffer the consequences.
While I support Kosovo's desire for independence, this is a fundamental EU problem, bigger than any one issue.
"How daft, they say, that Greece can stop the EU's most powerful countries getting their way."
How daft are you to think big countries are automatically right? Just because France, Germany and the UK are big and powerful doesn't mean they are morally right or make right decisions. By that logic, the US should be allowed to do what they want because they are so big. Is the EU that ethically bankrupt that they think might = right?
But this is the EU's dilemma, is it a democracy? Or a dictatorship of the political elite?
I think it is wrong that a ´óÏó´«Ã½ correspondent should be repeating with apparent approval insulting remarks such as the comment about Croatia's Foreign Minister.
Question for Mr. Mardell.
What do you think about province of Kosovo geting independance? Right or wrong? Your personal view please!
greetings
Bob
If independance is 'approved' for Kosovo due only to the majority's wishes, then that must set the precedence for the independance, or the joining to Serbia, of the Republic of Spska in Bosnia who have a vast majority of Serbs within it's borders.
It's about time that Kosovo gained independence. This state of limbo can continue no longer. If the EU has any hope of reducing future tension, it should have a united and solid stance on the issue.
Greece's position is a nightmare because of their own disputes with Albania proper with regards to the removal of Albanians from Greece at the end of WWII.
Mark, any word on why nations such as Greece and Romania are against Kosovan independence? Is it because they have regions with separatist sentiments themselves? I know Spain has been reluctant towards independence of Kosovo due to its problems with the Bask country and Catalonia, but are all opponents facing similar problems?
It seems to me that's a fairly unovercomeable issue. As far as protecting national interests go; making sure your nation doesn't fall apart is surely way up the priority list.
Kosovo student studying foregin relations in US.
This proves that EU can not be a "country" which they pretend to be. It is sad, how EU has member states which still do not see the truth. These countries, Greece and Romania, are countries from the region which should understand Kosovo's past very well. But i assume their showinism, hatred, and teritorial claims against Albanians in Balkans are feeding this hesistancy to admit that Kosovo should be independent.
It is still hard to understand how EU and NATO can have such member states that supports a country where just 8 years ago they deported 1 million people, masacrated and killed thuosands. Also just a reminder that the country they are supporting had started three other wars in region of former-Yugolsavia, had killed more than half a million people, damages done are in billions and in top of that they haven't arest those responsible for these crimes. But i have to say this is only a EU hypocrisy and mentality. No Surpirse!!!
Also, one more reminder to European Unions foreign ministers that Kosovo problem is one miniscule problems that exsist in curent world.
This is a time for Western Europeans to fix a problem wich they have created in the begining of the last century. These opportunities do not come often, as history has shown us.
sincerely,
future foreign minister of Kosova/o
I think that it is absolutely unacceptable for world powers to decide to rip off a part of a sovereign state. Media often quotes ethnic cleansing as the reason Serbs must pay but if 95% of the population is Albanian and Serbs have massively left the region and live in enclaves I don’t see the link. EU should consider the amount of refugees Serbia and Europe itself will see if Kosovo gains independence. Europe, America and Russia will once again fail the Balkans. To Serbs, Kosovars and Albanians: the world has never cared about the problems in the Balkans. America bombed Yugoslavia so Bill Clinton’s affairs would stay off the networks. I wonder if the US will accept the brake up of Bosnia and Herzegovina? There is he Dayton agreement for that issue but there is also a resolution about Kosovo saying that it is part of Serbia. Double standards. I for one won’t want to see another banana republic in Europe.
Kosovo will declare independence after 10 December. If the EU fails to reach a common position to recognize independence, then it will once again demonstrate that it cannnot play a major role on international issues (even on its own backyard). Kosovo will not accept anything less than independence, and some EU Foreign Minister should accept that fact.
If it comes to that point that Kosovo declares indipendence from Serbia i believe it wont really matter if EU is united in their foreign policy.Is only 4 or 5 countries which for time being they will refuse to recognise it (Greece,Sllovakia,Romania,Spain and maybe Hungary.Eventually these countries will come round to the idea of accepting the indipendence.Main problem these countries have is because of ethnic minorities in their own countries.Globally speaking i believe there will be more countries recognising Kosovo indipendence than the ones who wouldnt.
Most nations know that Serbia lost Kosovo 8 years ago and any threat of force from serbs is a bluff.They know full well that if they want any future in EU they have to restrict themselves to dialog.Indipendence is the only way forward for the balkans and for kosovo and serbia too. Serb politicians know full well that will be the end product but they dont want to accept it publicly cause they will be seen as traitors.
This article is so preposterous, I assume but refuse to believe that this is the attitude of most of the citizens of the "big three". I don't know why the EU exists if one country is considered better and more capable than the other. Why don't we just go back to Europe as a continent of different countries as it always was and not this cynical "union of equal european countries". Some countries do have better economies than the others but you can't possibly let Mr. Mardell poison us with his complexes regarding the greater importance of Britain, France and Germany over Greece! Probably Mr. Mardell would find it absolutely hillarious if one, say, Slovakia would have it's own opinion. Slovakia? Ha ha! Crazy. Right, Mr. Mardell?
Masks are constantly falling.
It is too late for any unity. When NATO troops entered Kosovo, Europe failed to rule out independence as an option. This has allowed Albanian extremists to forcefully advance their archaic separatism (bloody and violent like any other) and get on bad terms with everyone they border. Today, they think they are untouchable and that their cause is just. The European unity fragments whenever the interests of USA find their way into European problems. And because the USA believes that Kosovo must be independent, the Albanians (Europeans, right?) have no reason to listen to what Brussels, Moscow, Madrid, Athens and Belgrade (Europeans, right?) have to say. They have the American support and that is all that matters.
The Americans, with little regard for Europe, need to show to the disgruntled Islamic world that they care about Muslims (at least in this part of the world) and hence are granting them a state against the wishes of local Christians (first in Bosnia and now in Serbia). Of course, it is much easier for Americans to give independence to Kosovo than to Palestine or Kurdistan. After all, Serbia is neither Israel nor Turkey.
In reality, European disunity it is not down to Greece or Romania. The source of the problem is the American reluctance to consider any other option for this province which is short of independence. Americans have never given Europe the opportunity to find a compromising solution. Hence, many European nations are now forced to take sides between Washington and Belgrade. That the Big Three are openly in favour of Kosovo's independence speaks volumes about the nature of today's European Union. If there was any European unity, or desire for it, the voices of Greece, Romania and all other EU states opposed to further fragmentation of Serbia would have been presented to the Americans with some force.
Instead, the Serbs who are now willing to accept any solution for Kosovo short of independence will be punished, and Albanians, who offered no concessions but threats, will be rewarded. Does Europe really need another (and most probably dysfunctional) Albanian state simply because this suits Washington?
why doesn't anyone mention that there is absolutely no legal foundation to the independence of kosovo and that recognizing independence of kosovo would be an act of bullying in many ways similar to what hitler did at the beginning of the 2nd world war...
guess where all that leads...
Greece's position on Kosovo is not "daft" -- far from it. There is already a sovereign country for Albanians, called Albania. It is not daft at all to suggest one sovereign state for Albanians in Europe is sufficient. What is daft is the idea that third parties can decide borders and adjudicate sovereignty on the basis of migration patterns. That would be like my telling you what to do with your money. It defies logic. Now, the EU has, in the past, demonstrated an unwillingness to exercise logic, restraint or the least degree of backbone when faced with wacky American proposals, such as for example the war in Iraq, or the Berezovsky-sponsored "Orange Revolution" in Ukraine. No one in the EU government seems the least bit embarrassed about the EU's culpability in allowing the US to create a complete humanitarian catastrophe in Iraq (a country many times greater than New Orleans in size, with less chance than New Orleans of ever recovering). No one in the EU government seems the least bit embarrassed about the EU's culpability in allowing the US, under first Clinton & then Bush, to continue to lead the extermination of human civilisation through criminal environmental abuse in defiance not only of science, but of basic common sense. No one in the EU government seems the least bit embarrassed about the EU's culpability in allowing a notorious gangster & avowed funder of terrorist attacks, Boris Berezovsky, to hijack European foreign policy vis-a-vis the ex-USSR for his own personal political ambitions & shamelessly childish vendetta against the man who, thankfully, drove him & his agentura out of the Kremlin. Because of these failures (not to mention the collapse of the treaty vote), the EU's credibility is in fact quite frail. Under the circumstances, rather than call the Greeks 'daft' for actually objecting to foolish appeasement of Albanian immigrants that might easily -- repeat: easily! -- trigger World War Three in Europe, you should be grateful that the Greeks & the Romanians are there to offer some logic -- and a graceful way out -- to the embarrassing EU posture of confusion. Don't you think the nations that actually have greater experience in dealing with Albanians might be giving you good advice? Have you even considered that the female majority of the population of Albanian migrants are better off under a Serb government than under an Albanian government, which is notorious in its tolerance for such abusive practices as human trafficking & sexual slavery? Are you prepared to follow a "recognition of Kosovo" with a "recognition of Basque sovereignty" or a "recognition of Kurdistan" or a "recognition of Mexican sovereignty over California" in the wake of this nonsense policy? Pardon my French, but Bush is an idiot, and that is neither news nor an insult, but the commonly held view of most Americans, Republicans & Democrats alike. To torpedo peace in Europe simply because this idiot & his incompetent administration made some foolhardy promises to a bunch of provincial Albanians just emerging out of the worst prison society in living memory -- comparable only to the society under which North Koreans struggle to survive -- would be so absurd, such priceless proof that European civilisation has in fact already self-destructed, that you would literally deserve what would follow: World War Three. So bring it on! Maybe we really need to clear the air, and get those cobwebs out of your effete European heads -- the way only grisly total war seems to be able to!
Exactly how many others along with Greece and Romania are the big three against? It was not explained what their position and rational is before we pass judgment. Does that mean that in a society if someone has a bigger income or can bench press more than others his opinion should weigh in more? Additionally, with the influx of immigrants in mind, shouldn't an independent Kosovo create a precedent for any area inhabited by foreign nationals to seek independence? Soon, certain London suburbs may be in danger of seeking independence...
Anyway, before we discuss Kosovo, which is a relatively new problem in the long history of this continent, let's first grant independence to the Basques, split Belgium in half and most of all unite N. Ireland with Ireland; a referendum I think would be a good way to start. Once that is achieved then the British government may support Kosovo's independence.
One male minister or one male reporter?
What if some eastern european official would say the same thing, in the same manner, 'bout your queen?
I guess you thank God everyday for those eastern europeans, gov't ministers or regular people. They're sooo easy to bash and quite fun for a narrow-minded and laid-back reporter such as yourself.
Try some serious reporting for a change, Mark. Who knows, you might even like it.
I do hope you will be interviewing her Mr Mardell, purely to get a far better understanding of the future of Kosovo, you understand.
This is not true or even better complete lie. Serbian officials never said that Serbia will send military to Kosovo. We want peaceful solution, good for both sides not just Albanian.
Kosova needs and will be independent, regardless what countries like Greece and Romania think. Obviously they have their own interest with Serbia and are protecting them. As long as the big powers (US, UK, Germany and France) recognise Kosova the rest is just formality. Kosova needs this indpendence so it can continue it's prosperity and one day become part of EC.
There are 2 key points for restoring peace in the region of former Yu.
First - Kosovo;
It's been a cradle of Serbian culture and state, and not just that. Serbia was investing a lot of money in Kosovo having considered it a part of its own territory. One doesn't just walk into Kosovo or any other region in Europe and proclaim its independence and severance from the homeland. I know that partition of Kosovo between Serbs and Albanians is not even on a radar at this moment, but that might be the only ultimate peaceful solution.
Second - good political and diplomatic relations between Belgrade and Zagreb;
Serbia and Croatia could be an axle for the south-eastern Europe. I am not suggesting any kind of new Yu (that political experiment is definitely dead), but something that Germany and France had done for Europe after the Second World War.
Why have a common European policy at all? Why should, say Britain and Greece, be expected to have the same foreign policy objectives? Why should one country sacrifice it's national interest to further the opposing interests of another?
hello everyone,
i hope kosova will be independenc soon and then we can get on with making our country towords EU and Nato and the strong economy,with all different comminty getting together, not mater the faith or nationality, we should never forget what happen during the Kosova war but we should move to the future as people of kosova,
Berat, London, org. Kosova
What is the justification for a second Albanian Muslim State carved out of Serbia's Rome? Will the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis be able to demand independence for say Bradford, Birmingham or East London just because they outbreed the English? (They are already planning a triumphant, enormous mosque which would be the bedrock of the English section of the Muslim Caliphate)
It is sad to see the dabate on Kosovo turn in predominantly a political one. Nobody is caring about the life of the people living there, nor the Serbs, nor the separatist Albanians, nor the Russians, EU or USA – and that should be the top agenda. Is that really a meter of independence? Any radicalization of the independence issue by USA, Russia or EU only deepens a political crisis and doesn’t help the folks on the ground. Perhaps time is the best remedy here until nationalistic rhetoric on both sides fades out. It may take years, yes, but that is the price of achieving peace without war. We all saw what happened with unilateral independence declarations in the nineties.
So much for a superstate. The EU has the trappings of a single nation in name and form only. As a single political, economic, and social entity it's already rediculous. In many issues of great importance it is in a state of perpetual paralysis. There is not going to be a meeting of the minds over issues like Kosovo. Greece will remain adamant over Serbian rule.
One of the countless obstacles to a single European nation is that the issues which triggered World War I have never been resolved. Remember that one? It's the one where it ended out of sheer exhaustion, only the Americans entering with fresh blood creating a decisive cessation of armed conflict. Its vindictive treaty of Versailles which sought to punish a defeated Germany by making it a perpetual beggar nation led directly to World War II. Remember that bloodbath? How many died, 30 million? America had to come to Europe's rescue again with the most massive invasion and military effort in history. Then there was a strange interlude which lasted nearly 50 years. It was the cold war, a conflict over whether or not a European doctrine, Communism would take over the world. America spent trillions to prevent that from happening without incinerating the world at the same time. When that was over, Europe went right back to World War I prepared to fight it out over Kosovo all over again with the weapons America had thoughtfully provided NATO to fight World War III. It was only American intervention in 1999 which prevented another bloodbath. No UN declarations approving military action needed then (they never would have gotten one, Russia would have vetoed it in the Security Council.)
I say if they want at each other, this time America should firmly resolve to step aside, stay out of it, and let them fight until one side is completely vanquished by the other. Russia and Greece against France Britiain and who knows what else. You can't tell the players without a score card. Europe, the best place in the world to do business.....ha, maybe if you're an arms merchant.
Strangely, Mardell fails to mention Spain's reservations about Kosovo's independence. Maybe it didn't fit into his "big countries versus small countries" juxtaposition?
In today's article ´óÏó´«Ã½ writes: "The armed group Eta says its campaign of violence will continue until it achieves its aim of self-determination for the Basque region of Spain." A statement similar to much of Kosovo Albanians' statements. And yet, for some reason the Albanians, unlike the Basque people, are entitled to self-determination and Spain unlike Serbia is suffering no consequences of oppressing the basic human right of an ethnic group living within its borders...
Kosovo, rare animals or fruit and vegetables: Mark Mardell's blog is always the same. Either the EU is meddeling in matters that it shouldn't get involved in, or it's internally divided and ultimately powerless, especially compared to the US.
Not only is this analysis cheap, but also boring and pointless. There is more to Europe than the Commission, and there is more to the Commission than the British view of it.
My girl-friend is from Kosovo, and young people there look to Europe (and not only the institutions) with great hope and aspirations. Many people in Germany realize the complicated history of the region, and to say that the US has a strong stand on the issue doesn't make the complexities of the region any simpler.
Pointing to the weakness of the EU is cheap, as though the problems between Kosovo and Serbia could be solved if the leaders of the countries start singing in unison.
The problems, and their solutions, are with the people on the ground, and their history. Don't use this as another occasion to bash Europe, Mark.
just wait,
today Serbia,
tomorrow your country...
remember my words...
terrorism and radical islam is taking over Europe.
Serbs are paying the price now, then, it will be Macedonia, then Greece.
but at the same time you will get those kind of problems in major europian cities.
just wait...
It does seem to be increasingly clear that perhaps a little more consideration should be given to the theoretical (and legal) basis which underlie our daily political and economic existence on a global scale.
What, for example, is the definition of "Nation State" and under what set of conditions does a group of people achieve (or have imposed upon them) this status?
Until now, it seems that the historical struggle between various armed forces have decided the issue. The borders are generally where the armies stopped-or where those with sufficient (armed) power decided the borders should be. In a "rational","democratic" age opposed to "terrorism" -this is surely somewhat unacceptable: Especially as recent history shows that large numbers of people do not feel properly part of the "Nation State" that history (and armed aggression) has assigned them to.
Currently, many people are scared of nasty Nanny_State_called_Europe. America, for example refuses to give up its sovereignty simply in order to obey international law. On the other hand, as has been pointed out, both EU and US have apparently few qualms in ignoring the national sovereignty of other countries when advantageous to themselves and the balance of power permits. The bombing of Kosovo/Serbia did seem to be a practice run for Afghanistan -which was also preparation for Iraq. Hardly representative of a civilized, democratic and law based approach to solving international problems one might think.
Basically, the problem seems to be -do we continue to behave as a bunch of bullying cowboys -where might is right: Or do we submit ourselves (and our governments) to some form of binding international law which allow disputes to be fought out in court and not (covertly or openly) on the ground, sea and in the air?
Perhaps we should even ask if "national governments" still have any relevance at all -when many international commercial enterprises have funds available that far exceed many national budgets: Especially when many of these funds are used on a daily basis to manipulate the behaviour and belief systems of millions of individuals around the world, through advertising, sponsoring, lobbying and simple economic blackmail.
So do we want democracy -or the illusion of democracy? If we want the real thing -then on what social and legal basis is it to be established? What then happens to those who are not satisfied with a single "one_size_fits_all approach -which itself must surely also be logically contradictory to the idea of democratic choice?
Let's talk about the day after. If the independence is declared, unlawfully as is, and recognised by at least one powerful state, arbitrarily as is, what would that change in the lives of Kosovo inhbitants? Certainly, there would be another wave of threatened population fleeing away, replicating 1999. The remaining would undergo the same destiny of non-Muslim population in a predominantly Muslim state although carrying a secular front, as described in detail by Bat Ye'or.
Economy? Does anyone really expect any legitimate-originated money would follow? It
I would love to see what would happen if Scots declared independence.
How would the "big three" react?
What about Belgium?
Spain anyone?
And as some rightly say, what happens if Serbs want to get out of Bosnia?
Europe, if we make this move, make Kosovo a state, problems are not always far from home. Sometimes they happen right on your doorstep.
UK especially seem to be forgetting that quite often.
What USA wants, USA gets. As much as I admire this country's internal politics, USA foreign office is as stubborn as hell. I can only regret that Kosovo didn't get its independence 8 years ago, when all of those 'ethnic cleansing' and 'Milosevic' arguments existed (sadly, but never proved!!!). USA/NATO failed then. On the other side, in the year of 2000 Serbia paid its dues, and for the last 7 years, keeps building a new democratic society, much closer to the EU most of the politicians think. So right now, the situation 'on court' is quite different, but USA/UK solutions remain rare and outdated. As for the EU's unity, hopefully it will emerge out of this mud its in, but I sincerely doubt.
BR,
Vlada
I wrote the following article with a colleague of mine. It deals precisely with the issue at hand and the dangers that are inherent in the course now being followed.
When the EU is united about former Yugoslavia they are very often wrong. See for example the Badinter commission, the Bosnia police reform and the Kosovo war.
The problem is that EU policy is not the product of a wide discussion of experts but the product of a very small group of EU officials who impose their vision with Macchavellian tricks. See the new book by Derk-Jan Eppink: Life of a European mandarin.
I don't see the need for a coordinated approach except on trade issues. The desire for a coordinated foreign policy is born from the desire to have the same kind of unilateral ppolicies as the US. I don't believe that is a laudable goal.
Kosovans should be supported if they declare independence after the failure of years of negotiations. Sebia will never agree to any form of independence.
An independent Kosovo? What a prescedent for International Law, where a immigrant community becomes a majority due to a higher birth rate and the indeginuos population moving out. Does this ring a few bells nearer home?
Will the US be happy to grant independence to California and Texas if the largely Mexican population takes to arms, creates a terrorist cell (Mexican Liberation Army -MLA) and demands their own state?
And finally an issue that every major politician seems to conveniently omit. Since the UN mission, Kosovo has become the main gateway to Europe for criminal activity and drug smuggling. Law and order is non existent that even the Kosovo Albanians are holding regular demonstrations against their own criminally corrupt government.
Yes the future bodes well for the region!
Sir,
This is exactly the same kind of discussion there has been before. The great powers very seldom are for independence and sovereignty of small nations, be them Finns, Estonians, Kosovars or any other. Was it Winston Churchill himself who never bothered to call the Baltic States independent countries?
After the ethnic cleansings the Serbs have committed during the 20th century, they can not have a right to rule over any ethnic minority. Could you ask Israel to be occupied by Germany? Kosovo was already autonomous in Serbia, until the autonomy was taken away by Milosevic. How could Serbia be trusted again? Have the people who were responsible for or took part in the Goradze, Sebrenicka or Kosovo massacres been brought into justice?
This is not to say that the Serbs be the only violators of peace in the Balkans.
This 7-year-long limbo of the state of Kosovo was a stupid idea from the beginning. There can be little economic development before one knows what will be the status of Kosovo in the future. The lack of development results in high unemployment, powerty, crime, and eventually terrorism.
In the distant future, the situation can be made better by including the local states to EU, which will provide open borders for people and goods to cross. But this requires the Serbs will look to what they have done and accept the outcome of their deeds.
Iiro Jantunen,
Finland
Kosovo had special status in ex-Yugoslavia and was autonomous, though part of Serbia. It also had a voice in collective Yugoslav presidency. Milošević later crashed this autonomy by force and wanted to completely integrate Kosovo in Serbia. Now Serbs are paying for the time they were behind Milošević and for their crazy nationalism still evident in people like Šešelj. I am personally against the independance of Kosovo, better solution should be found, but if Kosovo will be lost, Serbs have to thank their stupid politicians and to people who elected them..
Regarding comment about Croatian foreign minister - no wonder; not many beauties around them on these meetings...it is kind of hard to imagine somebody would say such a thing about Frau Merkel.
Greece position is because of their own fear of the ethnic minorities in greece which they refuse to recognise.To be fair if greece wasnt a EU member it wouldnt be accepted in EU due known human right breaches.Read Amnesty International and Human rights watch and you will find many articles citing how bad the human rights in greece are being violated.
Also in answer to maria amadei there are two greek speaking nations in eu and also two romanian speaking nations in europe, romania and moldova for your education so what the problem of having two albanian speaking nations in europe?
Or is it because of your racism and hate towards albanians?
Just to correct Phil on his earlier comparison - Giving Kosovo independence from Serbia is akin to giving Northern Ireland independence from the Republic of Ireland. That is why the UK must support it to legitimise it's own position in NI.
Two things:
1. When are you going to undertand that it is not about religion? Go to to Kosova/Albania and find out yourselves how religious people on the ground are.
2. All of you that are saying that it is wrong to rip of a piece of 'sovereign' territory from Serbia - are you also saying that it was right to rip off a territory (Kosova and a little more) from Albania some 100 or so years ago when the borders were redrawn? Not to mention hundreds of years ago...
Sincerely, go to Kosova and see how people live and what they want. I came back to London from Kosova only this morning, and I cannot wait to go back there again despite the lack of electricity and other things missing (comodities in which Serbia 'invested in heavilly' when they were in power and 'did not' let deteriorate, as one claims above) and despite the lack of many other comforts that I have in London. As a matter of fact, I cherrish the freedom that I get when I go to Kosova, and I, as well as many others, will fight in any way we can to gain and preserve that what everyone, and not only Kosovars, would like to have - freedom.
Sincerely,
If Kosovo gains independance there can be no justification for the continuing bi-partisan approach in Bosnia. The vast majority of people in Republika Srpska want to be part of Serbia and currently take a very detatched view of Bosnia
There is an old saying in the Balkans "Why should I be a minority in your country when you can be a minority in mine".
The great powers have used the Balkan nations as pawns since the nineteenth century and although the participants have changed the same attitudes prevail.
Maybe the only way of reconciling the irreconcilable is some sort of Truth & Reconciliation exercise as in South Africa where everybody can state their case. No guilt is involved and maybe, just maybe, a sort of truth can emerge enabling the separate tribes to attempt a fresh start and thus break the depressing circle of violence.
Otherwise todays victory simply becomes tomorrows revenge.
The only thing that matters here is what a majority of the people of Kosovo wants.
As Article 1 of the UN Charter says, the right to self-determination for all peoples is the only sustainable basis for peace.
The question of Kosovo is both practical and on of principle of international law. And division over Russian and USA stance is completely artificial.
Let's look at the substance instead. Kosovo Albanians threaten Europe with violence and unilateral declaration of independence - full stop. Serbia offers the greatest possible autonomy to Kosovo, with European standards but within its borders as it has been for hundreds of years. Russians would approve any negotiated deal between the two sides while Americans push for Kosovo independence regardless.
So, should Europeans cave in at every threat of force and claim for independence? Or should we stand united against any attempt to ruin our hard-won principles of law, order and compromise.
Just as we stood up to Milosevic in 1999 now is the time to be firm with the Albanians. Otherwise who's next? Again Albanian minority in Montenegro, Greece and Macedonia with demands for autonomy (read: secession)? Bosnian Croats reunited with Croatia? Croatian and Bosnian Serbs reuniting with Serbia? Hungarians in Slovakia and Romania? Russians in Ukraine and Moldova? Corsicans in France? Catalonians in Spain? Germans in Poland? Irish in Northern Ireland? Where does it end?
And guess who is going to foot the bill for all this madness over redrawing the existing borders. We will, the Europeans - not Americans, not Russians. First by taking even more war refugees, then by sending our already overstretched armies to pacify the regions and then pay for the reconstruction. And all this because Albanians wouldn't compromise over Kosovo unreasonable and exclusive demand for independence fuelled by the threat of violence. Who they think they are?
"Will the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis be able to demand independence for say Bradford, Birmingham or East London just because they outbreed the English?"
[#35]
Of course not. But then Pakistani and Bangla people were able to demand independence from India 60 years ago, and they got it.
BTW Interesting that while discussing separatism everybody mentions Basks, but nobody notices that Catalonia has a pretty good chance of going its own merry way.
Better than Scotland does. :-)
Lets not compare issue of Kosova with any other country. Lets treat it as it is ...a specific case...
I dont think Serbia or Russia or any other state have the right to act against the will of the kosovar people.... and please no more comparisions...nobody is no naive to belive that Kosova will present a precedent...
Greece is of course protecting it's own interests. The problem of Kosovars is clear to anyone who ever visited Kosova. They have been harassed even in Yugoslavia, and even more in Milosevic's Serbia, as have been all other nations. Since SFRY existed, other nationalities, other than Serbs have had lower rights, less access to government positions,... This problem was most evident with ethnic Albanians, who did not have a govt. (every nation/country except them had it's own local govt.) to protect them in SFRY, as Croatians, Slovenians, Macedonians and even Bosniaks had. This problem will not go away. Albanians are treated now in Serbia much like Jews in Third Reich. Serbs on the street will tell you: "they have all the money", "they are dirty,...". Who would want to live under government that is openly promoting hatred against you? They see their only opportunity (following example of others) by leaving this country. Unfortunately, that is the only exit that seems realistic now. Even bombing of Serbia, sanctions, economic threats,... didn't work. What other choice to these people have? Or do we want to see them in another Balkan bloodshed, as with Bosnians and Croatians, just this time under ruling of Vojislav Kostunica, current serbian prime minister (called Vojo Kalasnjikov, for taking his photo with AK47 in Kosova, "protecting serbs").
Srdjan #39
Spain did not drive one million Basque out of their homes to die as part of a genocidal war to create a geater Spain the way the Serbs did to the Kosovars and the other former Yuogoslav republics to create a greater Serbia. Spain did not use its police and army to rape, torture, and kill thousands of people or support Spanish militias to achieve a political goal of ethnic cleansing the way Serbia did. Serbia can paint itself as a victim all it wants to and people in Greece, Russia, and a few other places my buy that argument but most of the rest of the world will not. Kosovo's independence is the price Serbia will pay for its vast litany of crimes against humanity against the Kosovars. There is absolutely nothing anyone can do to stop it, this will happen. Right, wrong or otherwise, the military defeat of Serbia by the US under the guise of NATO was the demand of the major Western European powers, they did not even hint that a UN resolution was necessary, they just called 1-800-USA-HELP and begged President Clinton to do whatever was necessary to get the job done as quickly as possible. The images of desperate people fleeing their homes into the snow to escape the brutality of the Serbs was bad enough but the picture of the Kosovars being forced to board the trains to be deported brought back the nightmare of Auschwitz Europe had tried to forget for 55 years. The flood of guilt at having stood by helplessly as millions of ordinary people were led away to be murdered for a political end was more than most Europeans could bear. Serbians like the Palestinians should resign themselves to look forward and make the most of what they have left to them or they may not have much of a future at all.
Frankly, Kosovo should be given indedpendence immediately. My question is though, given how poor they are and always were (1% of Serbian salaries went to help support these folks who have an average of 8 children) who's going to support them?
Since going their way from Serbia a few years ago, are they any better off? Its a small agricultral scrap of land. How will it be better?
Its going to become a welfare state. Better the EU support them than Serbia which has enough economic problems already.
My only issue with anyone's comments is this notion that it was always majority Albanian. It wasn't. Albanians were moved in during Tito's time. They weren't "native" there before in any significant number. The fact that they have a high birth rate naturally helped them become a majority quickly. Should populations be given the right to cecede simply because they can produce enough children to outnumber everyone else?
Fly be free....and let the EU pave the way. Kosovo should have its right to be independent, but be careful what you wish for. My impression is that its the drug lords who want the independence so they can create a nice hub for heroin traficking. Kosovo is famous in Scandinavia as THE source for heroin.
hmmm...
1. "How daft, they say, that Greece can stop the EU's most powerful countries getting their way."-- Perhaps this comment was more intended to refer that new members should have a little more 'finesse' and present their feelings more diplomatically (i.e. EU constitution spats).
2. The problem comes mostly from the new members (those who are terrified of Russia) they form back door alliances with America, so as to feel safe, but yet feed on mama europe's milk. The EU has a great promise to stand on it's own feet, with its own ideals, if they work as a block and stop these back door alliances.
3. Speaking of an united front: if the EU is to succeed in having an united Foreign policy, they should be able to have a majority rules (based on live populace). It is only fair to let the people decide.
I don't know what, some of you are thinking? Serbia lost Kosova 8 years ago. Serbia also single handedly destroyed Yugoslavia. As soon as Tito {who's Croation by the way} died. the serbs Started to try to dominate everyone. they removed Kosova's autonomy. Started bullying slovinians croats and bosnians. We know where they [the serbs] stand in regard's to other people's right's. just look at there track record. Vukavar in croatia, the serbrenica masacre in bosnia. and the many many more attrocities there responsible for. As a Kosova Albanian I know all too well what it's like living under Serb rule. We were not alloud to have our own school's. not alloud to be in the police force. could'nt be teachers or princibles. not alloud in all facet's of government. We were treated like animals. They evicted 2 million people from the homes. slaughtered women and children. there Barbarians. Who would want to live under those conditions in the hart of europe? Who would want to live under a russian satellite state
I am not certain that Germany supports a unilateral decleration of Kosovo independence.
Its clear that Germany used to support that position but today the country is far more mindfull of its position as EU superpower and the responsibilities that go with it - building a bridge to Moscow.
This 'game' isnt over yet.
PS Has anybody got an idea what a prospective Tory government in Britain would support?
Two things strike my attention.
First, the Serbian sudden determination to accept international law, legitimacy, rules etc. How convinient, now after launching attacks and wars against all their neighbors (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia) and own, former, citizens (Kosovo). Rather selective approach in understanding and implementing international rules and standards, I'll say. The aforementioned war-threats by Serbian officials only prove that the majority of Serbs were / are not against the Slobodan Milosevic regime because of attrocities committed against other former citizens of Yugoslavia, but rather because he, Milosevic, has failed in achieving the promissed goals - absolute domination over other republics of ex-Yugoslavia.
With that in mind, we face an even more serious problem, one that will continue to linger in the region: if no pressure is applied on Serbia to face own responsibility and guilt for launching murderous attacks against own neighbors, why would they not simply think 'ok, we did it once, we got through it, why not just wait a while and then strike again?'
Not a year since the independence of Montenegro, a high-ranking Serbian official, adviser to Prime Minister Costunica, slams this small republic, naming it as a quazi-state, quazi-nation! And furthermore, the whole Serbian apparatus stands in protection of a priest from the Serbian Church, accused by ICTY for aiding war criminals?
The second moment relates to Romania and Greece and their opposition to Kosovo independence. The reason is simple - blocking any possibility that harms the present remnant of cold-war ballance of powers in the region, with Serbia and Greece beaing the dominant powers, and Romania in waiting for aspiring to join this club. Hence, the Bulgarian support for the Ahtisaari plan, along with the support from Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia, Hungary, Slovenia. It is overly simplistic, yet not that far from truth, that Greeks, Serbs and Romanians can prosper only by keeping Albanians subdued and without a say in the region affairs, constantly outvoted by their neighbors.
The EU, I believe, will manage to sail through this serious crisis, because of the ongoing change in the outlook by most EU states on the world affairs, shifting from 'traditional allies' approacj to a more realistic 'reading' of the past, present and the future.
A question for those against the independence of Kosovo: how do you percieve and explain the future of Serbia with 2m Albanians? Do you honestly, realistically believe that Serbia would be ready to accept a Government in which 30% of ministers are Albanians? Or a parliament with possibly even higher % of Kosovans? Do you seriously believe that an ordinary Serbian citizen, a tax-payer, will be willing to support a budget that would support a massive Serbian army and police presence in Kosovo? And finally, in relation to what I have already stated, why do you think the Serbs would not try to cleans Kosovo once more of the 'unwanted' population?
If Kosovo does indeed secede from Serbia, what possible reason will the Serbian entity in Bosnia have to remain therein?
And why should Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija, who have inhabited the area for centuries, be forced to live in an Albanian state, the cultural level of which was perhaps foretold by the torching of numerous churches and monasteries around the renegade province?
Greece has always been pro-serbian and anti-albanian, they reject independence for albanians because they fear that Chamira (the ethnic albanians section of greece) will follow in the same footsteps as Kosovo....and YES Chimeria is Albanian.
I don't know anyway could try and force people to be a part of a regime that ignored their grievences and committed geniocide against them.
Even now, Serbia didn't invite albanian Kosovars to vote in their elections nor give them any seats in parlament so that they could get a voice on domestic issues.
By the way...who is Romania?
my email: sibraimi06@yahoo.com
To Maria Amadei Ashot
I read your comment very carefully and I'm mistified to know where does your hatred towards Alabanins comes from?..I am afraid you are a victim of the nationalistic fuelled propoganda of your country (may be Serbia, Russia or Greece).Your opinion is attributed to a lack of history,knowledge,common sense and blind hatred towards Albanians. No country is perfect but we should not generalise countries based on our own prejudices!!! Let me also state a few facts:
1. Albanians do not identify themselves with Islam so stop portraying them as muslim extremists..It's not working!!!
2. Kosova was carved from Albania at London Conference in 1913, otherwise it would be part of Albania, part of one Albanian state.
3. Serbia's claim of Kosova is preposterous. Kosova has always been Albanian!!!
4. Kosova people( the oppressed) will soon be free from Serbia (the opressors).
5. Kosova independence is the only way to bring peace in the Balkans..
Peace in the Balkans!!!!
Thank you
´óÏó´«Ã½ please publish my comment
To answer Brad's question, Greece opposes Kosovo's independence mainly because Greece has a soft spot for Serbia, since both are Orthodox Christian countries, etc. It's a similar position to Russia's, but Greece's position is even more thinly veiled under political reasons. Being Greek, and having studied Kosovo issues in depth, I firmly believe the best solution for Kosovo would be a partial independence, but with a heavy international presence, at least until Kosovo is able to stand on its own two feet. The province is not anywhere near the economic, political and social standards that are needed to sustain a sovereign nation. Regardless of whatever nationalistic sentiments are boiling in that area at the moment, an independent Kosovo right now would only result in chaos. However, denying a 90% ethnic Albanian majority any autonomy whatsoever would not fare any better. Both the US and Russia should have realized this before taking any extreme position in the conflict...
@ Afrim (62):
1.First of all, its KosovO, not KosovA
2.Kosovo is historically Serbian
3.The Bosnian and Kosovo muslims committed ethnic cleansing and terror against Serbians throughout the Yugoslavian civil wars. They did the sme during WW II when the muslims in that area had an alliance with Germany.
If KosovO is given independence it will create a precedent. This precedent will mean that every minority within a country which represents a majority in a region of that country can now unilaterally declare independence.
I very much doubt Spain would like such declarations of independence from Catalunya or Basque. Or maybe the UK & Scotland, or Belgium and Flanders, or Russia & Chechnya, or Turkey and Kurdistan, or China & Tibet.
Why should KosovO be independent and Kurdistan, Tibet etc... not?
John amrstrong and few others thanks for your well informed blog, is a breath of fresh air when someone is well informed and knows what he is talking about.
take heed
Mark #54
I think it's time to use your own jugdment and search for the real truth rather than rely on Daily Mirror, The Sun and other British tabloids' view of the world.
I would like to emphasise the point that kosovo should stay part of serbia. It is ridiculous that the "big three" can impose such power on the desicion of kosovos future. May i remind everyone that kosovo is called kosovo, so anybody trying to call it anything else, you are wrong.
Through research i have been able to find out that kosovo has strong historic and religious links with serbia. Just because the serbs have become part of the minority over the many years, does not mean that anyone has the right to force independance. I would finally like to say that i hope countries such as Greece do get their opinion put forward because independance from serbia, from what i have read and learnt, is the incorrect path for kosovo.
I think everyone who claims that their point of view represents the majority is deluding themselves... Who exactly is the majority that supports Kosovo independence? Equally the Kosovo Albanians are deluding themselves that an independent Kosova will have the good will and support of the majority of Europeans. Or will only be opposed by Greeks, Serbs, etc.
Clearly Europeans are divided, and some do support independence.
To me this stinks. Another mess created by outside powers interfereing. Instead of protecting Albanians, it is meddling into Serbia.
It is a FACT also that Serbs have been ethnically cleansed from Kosovo, violence and pressure to move out. How will Kosova address this? Will the individual Serbs have a right of return? Will they be compensated for lost property? How can Albanians claim any moral superiority in terms of being victims, when they did the same thing to the Serbs?
And why is one side being punished for ethnic cleansing in this conflict, but not the other?
I have no solutions here - the countries involved created and AWFUL mess. I suggest that the EU works out what the legal basis and rules for all this... because in a few generations, with EU integration and people movements across borders, we WILL get similar situations again... IT IS ONLY a matter of time. Migrants of one nationality becoming majority in new regions of other countries...
It is even possible that the original inhabitants of one WHOLE country will become a minority in their own land. What happens if for example the Poles move into East Germany, the Germans get annoyed and persecute them, and it becomes a conflict? Do you punish the Germans in this scenario by giving East Germany to Poland?
Similar things have happened elsewhere in the world. We BETTER prepare to deal with them NOW.
Albania,as most people know, has a very high crime rate. This country prospers in making drugs and many other illegal activities. Then why should kosovo go down the same route. If Kosovo becomes independant it would be closer to Albania than Serbia because of the majority. This region would then just become another crime spot and little good would come from this. Kosovo should stay part of serbia but also be watched by the E.U .Then it can be monitered safely and can stay with its original country. If the Albanians have a problem with this then they should just go back to Albania as this region is not theres and they have no right to try and takeover.
I too find the newfound Serbian insistence on international laws and norms a bit galling, if not outright laughable. The notion that the country which has spent the better part of recent history breaking those laws, is now seeking to be sheltered under them, is almost too rich. I find it unbelievable that a country could with a straight face demand the "return" of their renegade province based on international law, mere months after that same country was convicted of breaking the UN Convention on Genocide by failing to prosecute perpetrators of genocide and failing to capture fugitive war criminals. Serbia must learn to fulfill its obligations to international law more fully before it can so readily pursue its rights.
Thanks to its reactionary leadership, Serbia is the last former Yugoslav country that hasn't managed to exorcise the ghosts of the 90s. Serbian leadership, with some honourable exceptions, is looking to the past, rather than the future. Its incoherent policies (such as the ridiculous "threat" to break off relations with any countries that recognize a unilateral Kosovo declaration of independence - a decision whose only outcome will be to consign the citizens of Serbia to further poverty and isolation) are causing Serbia to regress, instead of trying to mend fences and find a way to improve the lives of its citizes and learn to cooperate with its neighbours. The Serbian state has not even deigned to open an embassy in Podgorica, and their high elected officials call Montenegro a "quasi-state". After so much suffering caused by Serbian inability to recognize the rights of other nations, it appears they have learned nothing at all.
Serbian hypocrisy is most apparent in their discordant policies towards Kosovo and Bosnia. They are obstructing constitutional changes in Bosnia, on the grounds that those changes must be agreed upon by the Republika Srpska. And that is fair enough, except that of course nobody consulted the Kosovo Albanians when the new Serbian constitution was enacted last year. In fact Serbian official policy seems to treat Kosovo as a giant empty piece of land, as if it were not inhabited by 2 million people who have very clearly and consistently expressed their desire for self-determination and independence.
In the end there is nothing for me to do but feel sorry for the Serbian people - that their elite is holding them hostage over Kosovo, instead of focusing on the future and building a better tomorrow. One can only hope, for Serbia's sake, that a change will come eventually, that the only party in Serbia that seems to have any sense at all about them (the LDP) will make greater electoral gains, and help this poor wretched country free itself of the demons of its past.
I don't know anything about Kosovo and Serbia but if the Americans want independent Kosovo against the common sense and wishes of the majority of the international community (except, of course, Britain), the recent American track record is telling me - something here stinks!
Here is the question we all must answer. Is it worth it to go to word war three over Kosovo? The Russians and most if not all other othodox christian countries in the region are strongly opposed to indepenence. It is logical to conclude that they will not back down. Why should they. All Russia has to do is wait until winter and shut off the gas and oil to the E.U and the rest of Europe to cause an economic meltdown. What we have here is a situation that where on group of people went somewhere and just out bred the local population. What are Belgium and the Netherlands going to do in 50 years when they are faced with a similar situation. Are they going to give up territory to they offspring of muslim immigrants? We must all remember that the first world war started in the balkens. I just cannot imagine that little Kosovo is worth all of this fuss? Everyone needs to get a grip and face reality.
Obviously it is quite important whether or not the EU backs an independent Kosovo or not, since the EU is and will be footing the bill and providing the security.
However, to say that "How daft, they say, that Greece can stop the EU's most powerful countries getting their way" is wrong. If the 'large' countries are allowed to dictate the EUs foreign policy, especially if they have a direct baring on smaller countries, then there will be no common EU foreign policy. If Spain, Romania, Slovakia and Greece, all strongly oppose an imposed settlement, then why should the UK, France and Germany be allowed to dictate policy?
Just as the EU insists on the territorial integrity of Croatia, Bosnia and Macedonia, despite strong separatist movements within those countries, so it must support the territorial integrity of Serbia, despite the Kosovo Albanian's strong wishes. Instead the EU should offer autonomy, just as the Albanians have been offered in Macedonia and the Serbs in Bosnia (sadly it was never offered in Croatia, resulting in death, destruction and over 300,000 refugees).
Whatever happened to the principles of international law, or did that all go out the window with Iraq. Every sovereign nation on earth has the right to its territorial intergrity. A land grab from Serbia will run roughshod over established legal principle and create much more instability than an independent Kosovo would. Finally what about the minority Serbian population in Kosovo - is the same thing going to happen to them as was the case in Croatia. What people also tend to forget is that more Serbs ended up being ethnically cleansed as a result of conflicts in the 1990's than any other ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia.
Whatever happened to the principles of international law, or did that all go out the window with Iraq. Every sovereign nation on earth has the right to its territorial intergrity. A land grab from Serbia will run roughshod over established legal principle and create much more instability than an independent Kosovo would create stability. Finally what about the minority Serbian population in Kosovo - is the same thing going to happen to them as was the case in Croatia. What people also tend to forget is that more Serbs ended up being ethnically cleansed as a result of conflicts in the 1990's than any other ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia.
This is tough issue i feel bad for serbia they are going to get hung out again, the people will attack an independent Kosovo, maybe not the government. It will be an atroscity, people have to understand that the Serbian Orthodox religion is in many cases the only thing Serbians have, so many may not want to live in a world with an Albanian Kosovo. It will be great problem probably similiar to a Hezbollah war w/in Lebanon Serbia won't support it's militias but won't be able to stop them and if America bombs Serbia they will look terrible and it will go on much longer then last time. Hopefully larger countries can see this and will stop an indepedent kosovo from happening. Because it will become violent maybe even never ending.
The last paragraph in this article about the foreign minister of Croatia is highly inappropriate.
Male part of the mankind is obviously still having hard time to accept that a smart person can also be a woman and that she has a right to live her feminine.
Mardell's comment simply shows that his mind, as well as the mind of "one male foreign minister from a founder member state", are in some parts just at the same level as in times mankind lived in caves. It also nicely illustrates the fact that "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" because I don't think he would allow himself to publish the same comment about the Swedish, Austrian or UK female ministers.
Kosovans deserve the independence and their will must be respected as the will of every nation in the world (with or without state). The same goes for every big State of the EU. Why Basques in Spain and France can´t decide wether they want independence or not? And catalans, britons, corses, flemish, occitans, galicians, scottish, welsh, irish. Europe is much more diverse that the EU members would like to be and while ethnic problems remain and some nation´s selfdetermination right isn´t respected tension will exist. It´s a matter of ethnic, cultural, linguistic survival.
1. "Who would want to live under a russian satellite state?" [#64]
That question gains merit in view of the most recent reports that Russia has prevented an arrest of a Serbian war criminal, Radovan Karadic and in fact hid him (still does?) in its own territory.
2. Those who use an argument that "Kosovo was a cradle of Serbia" forget that Kiev region was a cradle of Russia; and yet it is today a central part of the independent Ukraine, with Kiev being its capital.
3. "Greek sensitivity"... Greece is so sensitive that it has insisted (and prevailed) that Macedonia assumes a name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", which of course has made Alexander the Great
a former Yugoslav.
In all comments there is one thing that consistently appears: parallels between Kosovo and the EFSR (European Future Secessionist Regions - that is according to Belgrade paranoia) Bask country, Catalonia etc.
The parallel is laughable, especially to a person that comes from Kosovo and has seen/endured a lot during the past 2 decades. My answer to all the questions raised about the ramifications of Kosovo going independent is that K is specific in every way that you look at the problem.
The thing is that Spanish government didn't expel or destroyed homes and looted the belongings, including personal documents of 90% of the certain ethnic group (in a planned effort so they could never come back or claim their identity/property) during the conflict of 98/99?
I'm sure they didn't execute whole villages and then dump trucks full of dead bodies on Danube, or did they (oh sorry they don't have a wide river as Danube!)?
In all the comments that I've read (against K going independent) there is a sense of "déjà vu" the same argument that were used by Belgrade (than federal government of SFRY) against the Slovenian & Croat independence are being used today to counter the Kosovo case. No! You shouldn't allow them to break off; cause there will be a domino effect: Wales, Bask country, Corsica etc.
As a matter of fact none of that happened because Kosovo today, Slovenia & Croatia yesterday are SPECIFIC CASES.
To be honest Slovenia is an EU member and Croatia is member to be in the near future, much better than being stuck with Belgrade.
I conpletely agree with Mark (61 above) in his answer to Srdjan (39) regarding the Basque question and would like to add the following. Under the Spanish Constitution their is a legal procedure, involving a referendum, under which full independence so why dont they take it? Firstly, recent estimate indicate that up to 10% of Basques would vote in favour. Secondly maybe 1% of Basques still support ETA for historical reasons. Thirdly, the number of ETA activists were though to be about 200 two years and with recent arrest, mainly in France, could now be as low as 50. Forthly they are failing even in their terrist activities. They managed to blow up a multi-story car-park at Madrid airport which killed two unfortunate Equadorian immigrants waiting in a car.
On ahaapier note, Marcel from Holland (71 above) mentions Catalunya, well today just happens to be our national day with is celibrated with much singing, dancing and eating but no independence rallies that I know of.
Yet once more we see foreigners attempting to impose their will on the Balkans. If history is any guide, they will fail again. It may require 50 years or 500, but empires always decline, where as Balkan memories are long.
"I am not certain that Germany supports a unilateral decleration of Kosovo independence.
Its clear that Germany used to support that position but today the country is far more mindfull of its position as EU superpower and the responsibilities that go with it - building a bridge to Moscow.
This 'game' isnt over yet."[#65]
Correction: it's not a bridge; it's a gasline.
But it's true this 'game' isn't over yet, since this G. Schroeder (now one of Gasprom directors) baby is challenged on environmental grounds, and more importantly, projected costs of its construction have recently been raised from already exorbitant $#4,000,000,000.00
to $6,000,000,000.00 - a 50 percent increase. But then traditional German-Russian cooperation has always
turned very costly in the end.
Can anyone explain why is that that the Ortodox countries (Serbia, Romania, Russia, Greece) back each other regardless of the further political implications?
It seems stupid, don't you think?
Was Kosovo not an ex-Yugoslavian region long before the Albanians began their immigration to Kosovo to escape from Albania.
A solution in Kosovo has to respect the rights of all sides - minorities and majorities. It must also guarantee that it neither sows the seed for revanchism, nor starts a domino effect that will set the region aflame once again. The factual situation is as ugly as any situation that results from an ugly war with atrocities committed by all sides. A solution is the job of negotiation. Negotiations are not helped when superpowers state: "Negotiate a mutually agreeable position but if negotiations fail you will have no less than what you want!". The EU being divided on this issue is probably not a bad thing right now, sending as it does a message to both sides - a message that should weigh more than any other, considering that any agreement reached will only be satisfactory to the people (as opposed to the political parties governing at any one time) through a European perspective of the resulting entities.
If Kosovan people do not get what they want then I can see trouble for the whole region again. It really is the boiling point now. EU needs to sort this out now otherwise it will have more problems to deal with in it's doorstep.
I feel for the people and children of Kosovo! They live in uncertainty every day. What will the future bring for them I wonder?
What happened with "Europe of the Regions"? Europe with member regions instead of member states. Of course this idea is highly unrealistic (and probably highly unwanted as well), but it would be a great environment for (semi-)separatist regions like Kosovo, Catalonia, Flanders and Scotland.
The way that some readers try to explain the Greek position is wrong.As far as i can understand what the Greeks are saying is that they will accept any solution that the two parties can live with it.If they agree on independence thats fine for them.I find this view reasonable.If there is an imposed solution through which one of the two parties will fell humiliated that will lead as history has demonstrated to further troubles and i think everybody agrees that this is the last thing that this region needs.So in my opinion what is important to happen is both sides to negotiate seriously and not for the eyes of the world and each one to take into consideration the legitimate concerns of the other .At the end of the day negotiations means compromise and each side will win something and will lose something else.
I am a Macedonian, and this situation is a very difficult time for us in Macedonia as well as Serbia. If Kosovo is made independent it will - just like before - spill over into Macedonia. The KLA terrorists will once again start killing and demanding independence for the Albanians in Macedonia, and it will be Macedonian lives being lost. We don't want our country torn apart just because America wants to recognise everyone in the world as independent. Unfortunately our 'wise' President is creeping to America, and hopes that by supporting independence, we will get protection. But the Americans just hate Slavs, so i dont think this will happen, and i think we should be supporting our Serbian brothers and sisters.
Also i want to say that we Macedonians often hate the Greeks, but on this we are agreed - and the reason (to answer somebody's earlier question) that the Greeks are supporting Serbia is that they have a very close foreign policy, and they feel like 'brothers', partly because they are both Orthodox.
The terrorists in Kosovo should have been in War Crimes Tribunal too, and there is no way they should get independence just because they sang a sadder song to the UN than the Serbs did. Why does everyone roll over for Albania?? They do not deserve independece, and nobody should recognise them.
If the point of the article is to show that you can't have an EU common foreign policy, then it is a self fulfilling prophecy! At the moment the way things are that's not possible, there is no point in pointing out the obvious, it's like saying look it going to rain soon! If you have PM Brown boasting to his electorate we will retain an independent foreign policy (plus a few other red lines) then were is the shocking news that no common EU foreign policy exist. As for the Kosovo independence? 1) I don't care too much about it one way or another 2) can't they see how absurd it is? They want to be independent so they can join the EU, I presume the same EU that Serbia wants to join so they'll happily be in a union together again!! As to why the five EU states don't agree with the three EU states, I wished some more in-depth info was provided by this article. In my attempt to find out why I followed Al's advice on #52, but it appears that he is either pushing his own wheelbarrow here or he is talking about another Amnesty International, so thanks Al for sending me on a red herring chase here about your fictitious earth shattering discovery!
I am Romanian and my country is one of the "evil" opponent of Kosovo independence. I don't have a yes or no answer, but I am for a third path.
Of course I consider freedom as a basic human right, so kosovans have the RIGHT to be independent if they want it. And I apply this to hungarian, gypsy, szekler, csonga and germans in my country, just as I apply it to romanian vlachs in Serbia, to romanians in Moldavia, to romanians in Ukraine. And also i apply it to indians in UK, turks in Germany, Maghrebians in France, wels, irish, basques, kurds and all the others.
The only problem is the following: if Kosovo breaks free, there will be a 5% minority serbs there that would want independence from Kosovo right? So where does it stops? It is my basic human right that if I want to form my own country with my face on the flag and me as the only citizen, to an extreme, it is my right to do so.
My question for you is what is Europe? Are the peoples of Europe a real community? Yes, then why is independence of a region such an ardent issue? After all, where do they want to break independence from? They will still be in Europe.. They need complete autonomy or even independence, right so, they should receive. But IN TIME, not as a CONDITION for Serbia to join EU. Serbia that was once more flourishing than Hungary or Romania or even Greece is humiliated AGAIN for nothing.
Why can the autonomy of a land in the Balkans be achieved as a lengthy and careful process inside a unified EU like it's being done with Northern Ireland, or the Basque Country? Why should a European country be humiliated AGAIN?
Russia has it's own agenda obviously, but UK, Fr and De play it's cord of seeding hatred in the Balkans, although they play on the opposite corner.
So that should clear your mind into why the other neighboring small countries have different points of view.
You say:
"One male foreign minister from a founder member state nudged colleagues and suggested he would welcome much closer bilateral relations with Croatia's foreign minister."
That means either the Belgian, German, French, Holland, Italian or Luxembourgish Minister. I'm not easily offended about sexist jokes, but I think this was a completely undignified comment for a minister, if it was meant in the way you presented it. He should consider his position. If you tell us who it was, and it turns out it was mine, I might write to him!
Sir,
Serbian government(s)of the last 2.5 decades have forfeited their right to expect loyalty from its (non-Serbian) citizens or demand consideration from international community and protection of international law. In order to make demands, you have to offer something, too. While the rest of Europe, including former Eastern Europe, has made giant leaps forward in terms of quality and standard of living, or personal freedoms, Serbian politicians have given to citizens of former Yugoslavia, Serbs included, only one-way ticket to Stone Age.
Serbian government is behaving like a wife-beating husband surprised that the wife should now file for divorce instead of agreeing to twenty more years of therapy if not more beatings... We should know for we have all (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins etc...) played the part of that wife at some stage.
If Serbian people are (permanently) unable to elect more forward-looking politicians to represent them, they should stop expecting their neighbours to suffer for it.
My only concern is that the Kosovar wife might really struggle economically... but, hey, best of luck to her!
Finally the time has come for Albanians to be heard in Europe. KosovA will become independent because this has been a long time over due. Europe should correct the fatal errors it made in the begining of the 20th century and give all the European nations what they deserve- their own land, their own freedom, their own independence. It is sad to see that one more time Russia and Greece are against anything Albanian. They have sabotaged Albania and Albanians for a long time, but clearly their voices are becoming weaker and their claws invisible. Russians and Greeks be afraid: Albanians are European whether you like or not, you can not effect their future anymore! The time has come for Albanians to feel European and be proud of it!!
In reply to Szymon
"Can anyone explain why is that that the Ortodox countries (Serbia, Romania, Russia, Greece) back each other regardless of the further political implications? It seems stupid, don't you think?"
Dear Sir, from your name and tone I am tempted to believe you are Hungarian, but never mind that.
You should know that it is very easy to misjudge the orthodox countries as a united block, while this is not true. Russians are the most hated people in Romania for example, while they are moderately loved in Serbia or Bulgaria. People in this countries do not have a better opinion of each other based on religious allegiance but based on past historic issues: Greeks hate the Bulgarians more than the Serbs due to the Balkan Wars and their standing on the side of Serbia against the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Romania Greece and other neighbors are more aware of the potential problems in the region than UK or France.
And anyway, I can return the same question too you: Why US, UK, Fr and De allways have the same opinion in Kosovo, isn't that ALSO equally stupid?
I personally hold both parties responsible enough, I think the West wants to solve the problem quick and dirty, while Romania and Greece want to hold the balance of power until Serbia joins EU, while Russia needs for example to stop the alternative options for energy supply through Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania by supporting Serbia and making attractive pipe contracts to silence Hungary. Also the postponement of Serbia's joining the EU would also play well for Russians, Fr and De (and this time not for UK).
So, thinking about an orthodox Axis is an oversimplification really. The Balkans look to the West, not towards Russia. Unfortunately the West seems to the same STUPID mark on everything East of Germany: Slavic, Orthodox, Stupid. Oversimplification really. The region is more diverse than the hole of Western Europe.
Why does Kosovo have to change to a different country? If Albanians do not trust their future inside Serbia, based on past experiences, they can always move to Albania, just across the border, or elsewhere. I can understand the Jewish argument that Jews need a country of their own to have a refuge, to feel safe if the worst were to happen again elsewhere... but Albanians already have an independent country that can look after their survival as a people.
Kosovo was Serbian before it was dominated by Albanians. It is still a part of Serbia. Serbia has now changed. Is anybody suggesting that Serbia would try to again ethnically cleanse out the Albanians? With the EU and the whole world watching? I think by now the security of the Albanians is assured.
Clearly, this is not about security but a desire to break away from Serbia. More revenge perhaps as well?
The whole argument about GROUP GUILT of the Serbian people for what former Serbian leaders did does not work out either. The Serbian war criminals should be punished, but that is it. How can you punish the whole people, Serbia as a whole? PLUS, a big plus, how is the KLA and the Albanians being punished for the attrocites and ethnic cleansing they comitted? Thus this group guilt argument does not work in more than one way.
The difference with the other republics that broke away from Yugoslavia is that there was a Croatia on Croatian land, Croatia was not being created out of Serbian land where the Croats displaced most of the Serbs, and so on for the others.
On another note, this whole story shows what can happen with emigration without incorporating the migrants into the host country in some meaningful fashion. Some way to make the newcomers part of the society, instead of them ending up separate and in ghetos, or some isolated and underdeveloped region of the country.
It is completely dull to read all the comments about Kosovo which come from people who obviously have no idea about it. Its not about religion its not about what Greece, Romonia etc think.These countries have never liked Albanians and this is why they opose to this independence. Kosova was part of Albania and than it was forced to give it up in 1913. Many other parts too like Montenegro parts of Macedonia that is why there are all these problems now there. Has anyone ever wonderd why Albania is the only contry who has borders with its own people? Kosovo Albanians live in their own country and are not immigrants there. It is the Serbs who immigrated there. As regards to the religion it is everyones freedom to follow what religion they want to follow. So stop refering to this as a matter of religion or immigration. The Serbs never had Kosovo it was given to them. Before commenting on this issue I would recomend people read about the Kosovo history. History aside lets look at simple facts- Serbia is not fit to rule Kosovo as it made a mess of it to start with. What country in their right mind acts the way they did? Serbia lost Bosnia, Croatia and Macedonia and now Montenegro for the same reasons. Why is it that all these other parts of Ex-Yogoslavia are allowed independence and Kosovo should not? The people of Kosovo suffered enough under Serbian rule and Kosovo deserves independence.
Sir,
Martin Luther King once said: "If a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live"..This applies to Kosovar Albanians who after decades of presecution, discrimination and ethnic cleansing have discovered freedom and have chosen to go their own separate way and who can dare to blame them for choosing this path..Regardless of the EU stance on independence, Kosova will soon be free!!!It is sad that other countries such as Greece, Romania and Russia encourage more bloodshed by refusing to accept independence because Martin Luther King also said:
"We must learn to live together like brothers, or perish like fools"..
Free Kosova!!!
Thank you
I am sorry to say this but many have missed the point of the article: Kosova will be independent by Dec 10-th one way or the other, the problem that is being discussed is what does the EU before hand. The dilemma they are facing is go on publicly like the U.S and support independence or wait and recognize it as a state.
As for those who have posted above concerned about the implications it might have in different regions of the world I would suggest reading a bit of history. Albanians are in that region as early as Greeks and Romans, Kosova became part of Yugoslavia in 1945, Albanians have nothing in common with the Serbs or any other nation to keep them attached to them, Kosova for the last seven years is being administered by the U.N and its own government, there is foreign soldiers in place, there is seven years of semi-independence it is not going to be reversed. The Serbs are doing the best they can so they don't have to sell it for nothing, if the world is rotated around the money they would like a chunk of change to go in their country from the big pot that EU has.
As a eye witness to the Balkan wars the one thing I can say with certainty about all fo it...every non-Serb population in the region has fled from Belgrades embrace just as fast as their legs could carry them. And the Serbs extracted oceans of blood for their actions.
If Kosovo goes, is anyone really suprised? The Serbian nationalist policies that destroyed that region have proven to be Serbia's own worst enemy...and still they don't get it.
kosovo will be independent regardless of anyones opposition, simply because there are two million ethnic albanians who live there and they want independence from serbia and they don`t seem likely to change their opinion towords some kind of compromise. who will force them to do what they don`t want and by what means, and who is willing to pay for that for many years to come? killing and/or expelling them all so that kosovo can stay within serbia would be the only effective and long term solution in that direction, but we don`t live in time when one may get by with that sort of behavioure( no matter how hard they try)
Quite obviously Albanians and Serbs aren't about to agree on anything about Kosovo. Something the comments here show. So, expecting them to be able to live together in an independent Kosovo is not realistic.
Harsh as it may seem, the best and most realistic option is to split the place in two and give the Serbs the north and the Albanians the rest, help those who want to move, and then let the new Albanian Kosovo become truly independent and free.
Either the intl. community relocates people or it will happen anyway, just in a much messier and more violent way.
It is interesting how with all the facts available on the internet (if one is too lazy to go to a library), Albanians still claim that Kosovo is historically theirs, or that Serbs are the migrants there... or that Serbia only has it since after World War I... what nonsense and ignorance!
This whole problems is a mess precisely because peoples' arguments are based on myth and fiction. Albanians are repeating their propaganda and self serving fiction, while there is not many speaking for the Serbs... at least in the West.
All one has to do is start with a search engine and read up on the history of Kosovo.
Albanians are saying that Kosovo will be independent, and whatever others say it does not matter. I want to point out that by itself a Kosova has close to ZERO chance of joining the EU any time soon if ever. In contrast Serbia will probably do so relatively soon. Similarly the Albanians have to live in Europe, if they seriously upset too many of their neighbours, ALL of them much stronger in every way than Kosova or Albania... their future does not look good to put it mildly. After it strengthens, Serbia and perhaps others will use the first available excuse for an invasion or an intervention.
The point is simple, the Kosovo Albanians should stop arrogance in arguing that it does not matter if others do not agree, and work for a stable solution that everyone can live with in the LONG term. Or everyone may pay for their mistakes later. An isolated and shunned Kosova, can not survive either politically or economically. The Albanians are most likely sealing their doom by unilateraly declaring independence... perhaps just a delayed doom.
Personally I think the partition of Kosovo is the only workable long term solution. The Serbs get the Serb majority areas (including those where the Serbs were a majority before they got ethnically cleansed), plus minimal areas around the few places where they have their "historical and cultural" sites... even if it means creating a few territorial exclaves. The Abanians get the rest. Plus the Serbs gain by not having to deal with the Albanians any more, or with the displacement of Serbs from any more areas. Equally the Albanians get to rule themselves.
To those who claim that Kosovo is Serbian or Albanian:
You are wrong. People in Balkans were always very mixed. Think of Balkans as a cake made of succesive migrations. Greeks, Illirians, Thracians, Dacians, Scytians were the first people documented but they all migrated there. Then Romans, Slavs, Bulgars, Avars, Goths, Cumans, Magyars, Turks. From this early people new ethnicities were born: Albanians, Romanians, Serbs etc. Vlachs for example, a Latin people like Romanians were until recent times dominating most of the Balkan highland including most of continental Greece, but in the century of Nations they were gradually absorbed.
So there you have it, Greeks, Serbs, Albanians, Bulgarians Romanians they all would be entitled to have Kosovo.
Kosovo was a land of mixed slavic, albanian, vlach and probably turkish and many other people, and before that it was a roman province that gave Constantine the Roman Emperor that stopped the purge of Christians and made Christianity official for the whole Europe. The fact that at times was dominated by the Roman Empire, Byzantines, Bulgarian Empire, Serbian Kingdom, Ottoman Empire, Yugoslavia is not important.
What is important is that NOW it has a 90% population that wants to break away, while the Serbs have voted against independence. So, the people there have the RIGHT to be independent, but their independence without Serbian consent would be a HUMILIATION for Serbia.
If the Western Powers push the independence, it will be a bad thing for the Balkan region that is still ethnically very mixed even after 200 years of ethnic cleansing in the name of Nations.
I think time have changed since the Americans, Italians, Greeks and other Nations earned their freedom through bloody revolutions. Now the conflicts should be solved gradually, in Kosovo case, Serbia should first join EU, like Turkey, like Albania, then Kosovo should gain more and more autonomy, and when Serbs and Albanians gain enough respect for each other, Kosovo independence or partition would go smoothly, just like Cyprus or the Kurds recognition.
I want all those who yell "let Kosovo be free cause it's their fundamental right to be free" to yell the same thing in a few decades when the Arabs in Netherland will want independence, if the Mexicans from South US will want independence (after all it was their land for a while). Should I go on? When the Welsh, Scots, Pakistanis and Indians and Polish in UK would want independence, when the Gypsy migrants from Romania in Italy and Spain would want independence..
Of course we all have the right to be free, but how to do that without causing more harm than good, that is another story.
TO ANA KINA:
If the foreign ministers of Sweden, Austria or UK looked like the one from Croatia, please rest assure that they would receive the same comments... HAVE YOU SEEN HOW THE UK FOREIGN MINISTER LOOKS LIKE?!?!?!
You may think that you posted a politically correct comment, but please believe me that it is women like you that hurt your cause...Enjoy a compliment and leave outside the door your syndroms.
Kosovo shouldn't be indipendent but a province of Serbia. If there is a general rearrangement of borders in the region then I am also OK with it. I.e., South Albania / North Epirus joins Greece, Kosovo joins Albania, Republica Srpska joins Serbia etc. Doesn't it make sense?
For all of you commenting on this blog, please get your facts right before posting.
I was shocked with the writing of some Albanians here that are manipulating the historical facts in order to win support for their case. Wikipedia is a good place to start, but there are many other sites covering the history of this area:
First of all, you will see that it had been part of Serbia since the 6th century. It could not have been Albanian because Albania did not exist until the end of the WWI, only as a Turkish vilayet. Albanians are basing their claim on the presence of Illyrians before the 6th century (claiming to be the descendants of Illyrians), however the researchers have found much more Albanian links to Chechens and Basques than Illyrians.
Second, Serbs did not "lose" Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, etc. because these countries never belonged to Serbia (and you cannot lose something you don't posess). To Ms. Davorka Curkovic from Croatia: your country had been bombarded with the anti-serb propaganda for many years which makes your opinion highly subjective. In the same way, the USA cannot give Kosovo to Albanians because Kosovo does not belong to the USA and you cannot give away something that's not yours in the first place (unless we assume that the whole world belongs to the US).
Third, the numbers. I have read some comments talking about driving out 1 million people out of Kosovo!! (resulting in Serbia losing legacy over this province) People, where are you getting these numbers from?? The total population of kosovo is only 2 million, are you claiming that half of the population had been driven out? That's absolute rubbish! The biggest exodus from Kosovo happened not to Albanian but to the Serbian and gipsy (Roma) population (200.000 only in recent years) and it has been going on since the 60s. Furthermore the massacre of Racak used to justify the bombing of Serbia in the 1999 turned out to be a spoof (just like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq) which leaves the US and the "big three" with a massive moral stain. Bombing of the entire Serbian industry and infrastructure denied the right of generations to live normal lives. By the way, that bombing was never approved by the UN nor the national parliaments of the countries involved (which makes it illegal - only the UN has the mandate to intervene).
Mr Mardell, this region is much more complex than anything you will find in the West and most of the analysis so far had been from the press of the NATO countries which makes it too subjective to reflect the whole truth. Western media is famous for not revealing all the facts, just the ones that suit their interests. I suggest reading less Clinton/Albright and more Chomsky.
Quotations of Martin Luther King (or similar speeches) that all of you can see here, which are misinterpreted by those using them, are a part of champaign with purpose of showing Albanians as victims and Serbians as barbarians. Serbia was under terrible regime of S. Milosevic, terror and discrimination were mayor part of the life of all the people living is Serbia (NOT just Albanians). But Milosevic is long gone now. Todays facts:
1) Economic standard and safety of citizens is on a much higher level in Serbia (excluding Kosovo) then in Kosovo.
2) GDP was raising approx 6.5% per year in Serbia, and only 2% in Kosovo for the last 7 years (and Kosovo has its own government and freedom already).
3) 2/3 of non-Albanian population left Kosovo during these 7 years, because they felt unsafe.
All of these facts can be found as a part of numerous USA government researches of Balkan region. Martin Luther King or Kennedy or Dalai Lama or similar great people's speeches are used in Kosovo problem only for emotional propaganda.
Another important thing: Please, try to avoid 'The Serbs' or 'The Albanians', and blame only individuals or governments.
Mark #82/#83
International law is a joke. There can't be such a thing as a law when you only trot it out for the particular cause you are interested in at the moment and then put it safely back in the drawer and pretend it doesn't exist for issues you are not. You can no more invoke international law declaring territorial integrity for Serbia after massive violations of international laws they committed in their genocide against all the non Serbs in Yuogoslavia any more than you can invoke international law about a Palestinian state and ceding of land after four Arab genocidal wars against Israel.
To those who think and say America is fighting a war aginst Islam and not just against Islamic terrorists, I'd like to point out that the US destroyed Chrisitan Serbia to save Islamic Kosovars. So much for one more piece of the litany of anti-American rhetorical lies America bashers freely spread around the world.
The United States by supporting the independence of Kosovo simply prove that they have lost credibility as a nation that supports law and order. They prove yet once more that they only know the law of the stronger... it's unfortunate because they will not be the stronger for ever...
Russia supports a legal and mutually acceptable solution for Kosovo which is the only path suggested by democracy.
All sides need to show tolerance, understanding, compromise and will to live together - Albanians in Kosovo should embrace more of European values and rebuke drug trafficking, prostitution, weapons illegal trade, intimidation, corruption, murder of civilians, murder of political opponents etc... and so should the serbs...
food for thought: The last thing America wants is a sucessful EU, economically strong and influencial. It wants independence of Kosovo because it wants to oppose Russia, but also because it knows the EU will foot the bill when the country becomes a wellfare state. Or does any one think that the US will/can afford a mass immigration from Kosova? How about 1/2 California, Arizona, Texas, and New Mexico becoming part of Mexico again?
Kosovan people do not seem to think ahead wisely, and realize they cannot stand on their own economically. What happened to not accepting a terrorist state? Or will the US and the EU beggin to accept the Hamas government too?
Russians have been 'friends' with Europe for as long as the French and Brit royalties were sleeping with each other. Even during the cold war, they never ever cut off gas supplies.
The EU is under strong pressure to admit Turkey, a muslim country. Isn't it better to get Serbia (with a chunck of muslims) instead?
The EU needs to think of it's priorities. The milk is drying...
There is an easy way to explain away ruling over another people: the magical refrain "nobody's an angel" almost always is uttered by the wrongdoer, or the agent of the wrongdoer.
During the Milosevic pogroms, at least one very prominent paid lobbyist for Yugoslavia who used to work for the US government, would appear on certain high brow US TV interview shows and put on this very good acting performance, where, with a thoughtful and exceptionally pained "weight of the world" look, he would inform us unwashed American rubes that in places such as the Balkans "nobody's an angel," meaning, to the outside world, "Hey, don't waste your time defending Bosnians, because, supposedly, in the midst of Serbian genocide, at least one Bosnian fought back, and maybe also killed an innocent." That kind of spinning served to delay American intervention into Bosnia and cost many lives.
Human history, human behavior, and particularly humans who gain political power, can usually be relied upon to be un-angelic. It's surprising when we see an angel. In fact, while I might have seen ghosts periodically during my life, I have never actually seen an angel. Not even one. So let's toss aside this old canard when we need to determine what people is to be free and what people is to be enslaved or decimated by us, either eagerly or passively. By passive enslavement, I refer to the analog of the utility of the local butcher. Very few modern people in industrial consumer empowered societies want to raise their own animals and slaughter them personally in order to prepare the family meal. A supermarket's meat section is about as much bloodthirst as most of us really want to personally experience. We don't want to personally see the animal that we are to eat in its narrow pen, in a concentration camp like factory, and then turned into an industrialized food product where there is nothing spared. We don't want to get our hands bloody, we don't want to see the spark of life that god gave to that content cow, the dancing chicken, the intelligent pig, the pensive lamb, the sarcastic duck, the curious rabbit, the gregarious fish, or the nervous crab, but we do want their tasty meat, so that's why we rely on our butchers. We don't want to send our kids to work as butchers, we don't rush to laud butchers as our national heroes, but we see to it that they are gainfully employed. No questions asked. Don't ask, don't tell.
I live far away from Kosova, and I have nothing against Albanians, Serbs, Greeks or any other people. I live in a large nation the size of a continent and with few exceptions, as an English speaker, I rarely am caused to feel myself an alien. I am in the "United States of America," a state older than most European states as they are currently organized. But in every US state, in every county, in every town, there are traces of earlier peoples. Native American names of towns, of rivers, of valleys, of streets. Not far from where I live there is a road called "Indian Field Road" and it presently borders a golf course. Someone, at some time in that affluent New England town, there lived Native Americans, and this entire town was theirs, and in that field they raised their crops. After the English murdered the Indians, for several hundred years their descendants still carried some vestigial memory of these victims, even as they sink their little mottled white golf balls into those 18 little rat holes. The current generation of golfers could perhaps feel a little momentary guilt about playing golf on the former gardens of their ancestor's victims, but they could also silently bless the butchers for slaughtering those lambs, as a gift to their genetic progeny.
Today, most countries either vanquish and murder or displace the weak or they live on grounds where their ancestors did this butchery for them. No angels? The only angels that exist are already dead.
How then, since nobody alive is an angel, since angels at least have to be dead, and then presumably be properly registered by god as angelic, can one make some kind of judgment about whether this or that people deserves to be free? Nowadays there seems to be so many nationalities waiting in line in the world for someone somewhere to see their plight, to care, and to help them throw off their oppressors. How can we, with all of our important tasks, such as deciding which car to drive, what style of knot to tie our neckties, what kind of industrial food to microwave for dinner, find time to choose which submerged nations will be permitted to drown and which bullying nations will be rewarded for their butchery or "manifest destiny?" I don't have the answer-- sorry to waste your time for making you read this far -- but maybe an easy suggestion would be that we should try to put ourselves in the shoes of the victim.
Let's imagine ourselves unable to run our own country. Let's imagine ourselves needing internal passports that might restrict us from certain jobs or other benefits. Let's imagine that we should be afraid to speak our own language in a public place. Let's imagine that we cannot trust people who are not of our ethnicity, because that person might be an aggressive enemy or might be a passive enemy who understands our situation but who will turn their backs as their butchers slaughter us. Let's imagine that in every way we are marginalized, and that food supply, health care, clean and reliable water are kept from us. Let's imagine that the aggressor's settlers are overwhelming us and that they are backed by military and police power. Let's imagine that we have absolutely no hope for ourselves or our children or grandchildren, and even if we are not put up against the wall and shot, we are carefully being slowly slaughtered, with the aggressors having all the time in the world until our extinction.
American history sometimes accounts genocides, such as those by General Andrew Johnson, later elected President. Other times it accounts American genocides as an almost inescapable reality, with the story of Native Americans simply dying from smallpox, just because they did not have resistances to European diseases. The latter story tells of a non-genocide genocide, where other peoples' countries got depopulated without the bloodthirsty involvement of European settlers. The sancity of the aggressor's ancestors cannot be defiled by their butchery in this tale. The problem is that it leaves out the fact that it was known that "selling rum to Indians" weakened the victims' ability to defend themselves and weakened their resistance to disease. Even earlier than the deportation of the Cherokees in the "Trail of Tears" of 1838 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_tears), it was known by Americans that giving blankets of people infected with smallpox could transmit smallpox to the recipients of those "gifts." But giving poisons to Native Americans or committing biological warfare on Native Americans is just too ugly a memory for Americans, really showing a premeditated kind of butchery. That kind of behavior is what we might properly call "pure evil," as opposed to the butchery found in the "clash of civilizations" tale, where a fearful gun-toting pilgrim or pioneer was virtually forced to kill, "only" because s/he wanted to take another's land. Premeditated butchery stories tend to be downplayed in national histories, because they evidence crimes that ordinarily would result in imprisonment or worse, rather than grants of large swaths of land, prosperity, and other bounty for generations to come.
I would not want to live feeling like an oppressor, would you? Probably not, so let's please put aside this thoughtful and always endlessly stupid evaluation of ancient, medieval and even recent Balkan history, and look at the reality today. Kosova is an overwhelmingly Albanian place, and the best case that Serbia has for controlling it is that there are some old religious sites there and a few towns near Serbia that are ethnically Serbian towns. This is among the weakest possible claims that any nation could offer as justification to control another people. So give the Serbian towns to Serbia and free Albanian Kosova, and safeguard the Orthodox religious shrines, since religious piety is very important to politicians in Serbia. As for Russia, don't let it continue to play its own imperial games. Putin shall forever create ill both inside and outside Russia's borders, only causing Russia to lag behind most other states, due to a cynical, wasted and demoralized population. If the European Union in 2007 cannot stand up to Russia (or Serbia) on Kosova, then it should admit finally that it is a purely economic trade association and not the embryonic democratic and humanitarian transethnic federal state that it often pretends to be. If it cannot defend Kosova openly and clearly, the EU might as well disband and ask the European Free Trade Association if it would permit its members to convert to EFTA members.
For Serbians, they finally will be free to be themselves, rather than to be hated occupiers of other people's countries, living in paranoid Byzantine dreams of conquest and revenge. Murderous behavior affects even those who might think themselves innocent in the form of corrosive guilt, so it is best to be freed from oppressing another nation as soon as possible, for one's own sanity, for the sake of one's own national spirit and one's personal growth.
For any decent person, it is inexcusable to advocate trampling over other people. From a selfish viewpoint, persecuting others can also produce at least a certain uncomfortable feeling in one.
About the place where I live, there are supposed to be few or no "Indians," but for about a year the night manager of the vegetable department of my local supermarket was a Native American. He was a cautious but friendly man and he not only kept his department tidier than his predecessor, he also generously would go back to the storeroom to find the freshest herbs that I asked for. (Doing more than the absolute minimum to avoid being fired is almost NEVER done by anyone in this large Dutch-owned supermarket, almost as if by regulation.) Unfortunately for me, this man is not at that supermarket anymore. I hope that he was promoted to a better position or that he found a better job in a friendlier place. I miss him, and I'm sorry that my relationship with him was only a perfunctory one. The vegetable department also isn't run properly. It's a mess, and it never has the things that I want to eat. So in search of better vegetables, I have to drive to another market in that neighboring town via Indian Field Road, which causes me to think of that man, of where he came from, of his life, of where he went to, and of the thousands of ghosts of the murdered Indians living in the rich people's golf course. Then I get my vegetables and herbs and drive again past the Indian Field on my way back home to my family. I forget about this history for about a week, and then when I return to Indian Field Road, I remember these crimes anew. And then I forget again, for a while.
Between all the great cities of Europe are the most beautiful fields and forests, sanctuaries of blessed life and dwelling places of the ghosts of untold numbers of displaced, forgotten, and murdered nationalities. The civilization of the cities of Europe still depends upon this vast countryside for its sustenance, but there is always a distinctly bitter taste to vegetables or meat fertilized by ghosts. Maybe this is why wine, beer or vodka is said to be so necessary to enjoy one's meal. Maybe it's why we caramelize our food when cooking, to sweeten the flavor. It's easier in a sugary half-stupor to think of oneself as an angel, but I think that probably the best way to avoid self-destructive guilt feelings or outright bloody hands might be to just do the right thing while we are on this earth. After all, the angels in heaven are watching us, while we are still arguing here on this shared earth.
Just wanted to comment on Marcel's posting number #1, where he urges to disbanden the EU as quickly as possible. Has he ever thought about the economic benefits that the Netherlands gets out of the EU? Is he suggesting to re-introduce the borders with it's neighboring countries, reducing Rotterdam to a provincial port? Many of us dislike the bureaucracy of the EU, but it would be much better for all if we would celebrate the goodies, and DO something about the bad things i.o. complaining all the time
Anyone of you own a piece of land, mortgaged or not? How about a car? Or a bank account? A lipstick? Well, rule number one of Capitalism -- which, as we all know, is the way of the world, otherwise what are you doing improving your English & reading the ´óÏó´«Ã½? -- Rule Number One is: Private Property, Keep Out, Trespassers Will Be Prosecuted. If you so much as aspire to own your own estate, and especially if you already own one: how would you feel about coming home from work one night to find your neighbourhood in flames because some arsonist lit it up & devastated the area; next thing you know, there's some kind of martial law & the neighborhood thug starts moving somebody onto your property; you keep waiting for the mess to end, while they keep having children, then grandchildren... All on your land. Finally, the tyrant's dead, the rule of totalitarian law breaks down: guess what, you want your land back. You still have the deed. You still remember it was your land... Read all the pro-Albanian comments on this blog: even the one that accuses me of hating Albanians. (I don't hate Albanians; I just hate societies run by clans of geezers that treat their women like dirt and make sure their kids don't learn anything in a school that teaches different ideas or languages from what the geezers approve of. Plus, I have this problem with communities that tolerate human trafficking, drug dealing, and exploiting women & minors through prostitution, all in the name of the aforesaid geezer-approved clans making more money, more quickly.) Not one of these rabid "give me Kosovo or give me death!" orators (not even the ones who know some grammar and how to spell) can explain just exactly how a capitalist Europe is going to get around the Rule Number One rule: how, without yourself becoming a mugger, do you tell the muggee to surrender his or her private property (even if it's just a lipstick) to the thug that holds the knife at the throat? Folks, if Kosovo were part of Albania, this conversation would not be happening, now would it? My own much-loved California was owned by Mexico (which was owned by Spain) for much longer, in fact, than it has belonged to the US. And yes, there is a thriving secessionist community in California that would love to see the Golden State its own sovereign republic again; and there is also a considerable contingent of my Mexican friends living right here, many of them as assimilated Americans who no longer remember Spanish, who would actually love to see California (magnificent universities, wine country & Silicon Valley and all) "returned" to Mexico. What do you think the chances are that the US government, so pro-independence for Kosovo, would agree? What do you think the chances are Californian secessionists could "peacefully" secede -- or that Nato would come drop bombs to protect them from the US National Guard that has done such a terrific job policing Iraq? And what would all those super-patriotic Albanians think of Russia, if Russia, say, promised Californian secessionists aid, comfort & instant recognition if they "self-declared" independence? The bottom line is: there is an American administration that is hopelessly lost in the Middle East, and has zero bankable credibility with its own people. Only someone who had spent the last 30 years in a prison society -- in Albania, say, or in North Korea, or perhaps in a remote village in Afghanistan (although probably not even there anymore) -- could actually imagine that the US is in a position to "defend the sovereignty of Kosovo." At the same time, like it or not, call them all the names you know, Russia, well capable of taking on the USA (who is all the militant Albanians have to back their preposterous demands) -- Russia who holds vital reserves not only of oil & gas which Europe & China need, but also reserves of fresh water & land & forest that we ALL need, and need very urgently to remain available to us as we contend with serious climate threats militant Albanians probably have never noticed (being so busy with their idee fixe) -- Russia is simply not going to stand by and allow the Private Property rule to be broken. You can make all the noise you want: the land matters. Borders matter. Deeds of ownership matter. Kosovo does not belong to the UN, Nato, the EU, or the US. It does not belong to the World Bank or any other international body. There is nothing any of you have that Russia needs, that you can use as leverage to get them to change a position that is of fundamental significance to their core agenda: the protection of their own sovereignty over their own borders. And that is why, for Russians, this is not about (a) Serbs (b) Slavs (c) Orthodoxy or anything of the sort. It is about something far more basic that Russians have paid very, very, very dearly to reclaim: the right to Private Property, and to keeping that right Inviolate, no matter how many mobs or pundits clamour at the gate. Russia did not yield on Chechen sovereignty, no matter how much mud was slung at them -- even when they were attacked in their own cities, and even schools. The last great nation to attempt to outlast the Russian military -- a great nation, I might add, that was prepared to do much more damage than any of you writing today can begin to imagine; the nation that had better equipment, better training, better resources and a seemingly invincible determination -- that nation gave up, at Stalingrad. YOU CANNOT OUTLAST THE RUSSIANS IN A WAR. And you should take them very, very seriously when they tell you, they will not back down on the Private Property Keep Out rule. Had the Serb leader been a more respectable man than Slobbo, and had the Nato bombs been dropped then not to stop ethnic cleansing, but explicitly to award parts of Serb Yugoslavia to the Albanian neighbour, there is no question that even then, in its weaker state, Russia would have fought on the Serbs' side and WW3 would have begun then. But because Nato & the UN applied the fig-leaf of humanitarian concern, Russia felt justified not to escalate. Well, times have changed. The US-Albanian side is determined to violate the Private Property Keep Out rule. The US-Albanian side wants to render ownership of an asset open to adjudication by third and even fourth parties. That strikes directly at Russian interests. (There are plenty of Europeans who understand how it strikes at their interests, also.) Russia is already using terms such as "fascist regime" when referring to the policies of Bush-Cheney. What part of "you are playing with nuclear fire" don't any of you understand? All you patriots of Albania: don't you realise you are sitting on top of the fuse that you are yourselves determined to light out of sheer ornery stubbornness? And don't you understand that civilised people as a rule don't appreciate the stubbornness of those who light fires in the neighborhood, and then expect to be rewarded once the conflagration starts?
re. #119 Robert Otis
Now that's a whole lot of nonsense dear chap. Your logic justifies murder, oppression and ethnic cleansing. You base your decision on the current situation. Why don't you suggest to kill all the serbs in Kosovo and then there wouldn't be any opposition anymore - and that would be the situation of the day.
Otherwise, accusing serbs of oppression is a joke - Serbs in kosovo today live in ghettos guarded by military from the KFOR - so please why wouldn't the Albanians go back to Albania and stop oppressing the Serbs and live happily ever after....in Albania.
Of course that is not the solution - the only solution is in educating people to live together - accept differences - and this can only be done through respect of the law, and knowledge of history...
I totally agree with Robert Otis comment. I live in Kosova and if you are here in the ground you can see that this was and still it is country that belongs to Albanian. There are few churches in the country (you can count them in fingers) most of them builded during Millosheviq regime the others inhereted from catholic albanians because when they were examined by arcelogist have proven to be catholic churches in the past.
Thus, the only claim that Serbia can have over Kosova is their illusion. Nothing else...
Taking into account the current Serbia economy and ageing population, it would be far better of for Serbia to concentrate on its own problems than to loose time asking something which in reality never belonged to Serbia.
When it comes to religion, if one characterises Albanians as a radical muslims, that person has never visited Kosova. One should bear in mind that for 40 years Yugoslavia had a communist regime where the religion was not in the first place this has affected the albanian muslims as well. In Kosova we have the most "liberal" muslims that you can ever find.
Finally, this goes to Serbians who have never visited Kosova after the war..... Kosova is already independent in one way or another it is just matter of days until this indepence is made formal. I dont belive that Europe or America would ever allow to have the responsibility of another war and terror commited against albanians.
From Kosovo or Kosova ...:)
we dont have the problem of identity....we never had
First of all, one thing should be clear:-Kosovo case is not similar to any case in Europe, Asia or elsewhere.Kosovo case is not a religious case, but it is territorial and now political. Kosovo was the ball in the game between the West and Russia, in which Russia won most of times. For the first time in history, the West is seeing Kosovo with different eyes. WHo is not? Some eastern countries, like ROmania, Slovakia or Cyprus, who either have no clue about Kosovo or they lack good will, whereas Cyprus and Greece are religious allies to Serbia so, that is understandable. Serbia has lost any legitimate right over Kosovo, and ultimately, what do they want, when 95% of population does nto want to be governed by a State who killed them and who discriminated them so much and so "undergoundly" that not even people like Marcel ( here above) or those who oppose Independence of Kosovo were never aware of. Perhaps, they were, but nobody knows why does Kosovo Independence impede them. Well, perhaps people like Marcel should come to Kosovo and see and live it for a while, and then express his totally wrong point-of-view, especially about KLA, who was considered as terrorist only by the Serb government. It has never been considered so, by even NATO states, in which Netherlands is a member too.
Kosovo is SUI GENERIS case and and so after 8 years of UN administration and KFOR security, if Marcel-like minds have any better idea for solution, let them propose it. Let's see if they have another wise proposal and unbiased to the cause.
My impression is that legal status is less important than protecting the interests of anyone who has a legitimate stake in Kosovo, be they Serb or Albanian. The general state of lawnessness now evident in the province is quite worrying, and the UN/NATO administration doesn't seem to have an answer to it. It also strikes me that the Serb population is still poorly protected (they are subject to violence and discrimination and are living in isolated enclaves in order to survive; any past misdeeds committed by ethnic Serbs are NOT an excuse for this).
The question is: what will formal independence of Kosovo change in that respect? Probably not much, and certainly not for the better. I see it as a convenient way for EU and USA to simply walk away from the problem by shifting responsibility to somebody else. Organised crime will no doubt continue to flourish.
@ Ignace (120) all we would have to do to keep Rotterdam as mainport Europe is to close off the Westerschelde which would knock Antwerp out of the picture completely.
And besides, Rotterdams status as mainport Europe has nothing to do with the existance of the EU. Much of the import levies have to be 'given' to Brussels anyhow, and without EU we would get to keep them.
And please mention some of the 'benefits' of the EU. I would love you to try and explain how the faulty exchange rate with the old currencies (2,20371 instead of 2,0000 what it should have been, effectively knocking 10% off wages and savings -but not prices, which quickly adapted to the 'foreign' levels) was beneficial?
And as for Kosovo/Tibet/Kurdistan etc I stand by my view that if you support unilateral independence for one, you cannot deny it to the others. Its Pandoras box and once opened cannot be closed. Every minority in a country which is the majority in a region of that country will start demanding independence. Russia will oppose Kosovo because it fears the precedent will be used by Checnya or any other one of the Caucasian republics.
You claim that serbs havent got the right to keep kosovo because of what they did to the albanians. but wait, the albanians always cowardly atacked the serbs, just look up ww1 and ww2 albanians were with the nazis. jet the serbs embraced them and let them migrate into their country. same with the croats, they were aligned with the nazis and jet the serbs forgave and let them join in yugoslavia. serbs could have got great serbia al long time ago because they were the victors in ww1 and ww2 but instead the always embraced their neighbours. just look it up, and while you do it see that 50 percent of the serbian men died in ww1 and that a million serb people were exterminated in JASENOVAC by the croats just look it up. i think its shameful what the west is doing to an ally that has always fought for them and has always protected the gate of europe. AND PLEASE THE ALBANIANS JUST CAME TO KOSOVO AFTER WW2, BECAUSE TITO WANTED ALBANIA TO JOIN YUGOSLAVIA AND HE LET THEM IN. the albanians profited of the yugoslavian passport that let them travel. in albania they had hunger, and this how they are repaying our blood we spilt to make that happen. ask every albanian you know that lives in the EU or US where he is from, one answer: kosovo. thats our thank you from albanians and the world...funny how things go
I find this whole debate quite sad and unfortunate. What is worst is that so many comments are based on ridiculous notions, nationalistic history texts and flawed logic.
What is worst is the Westerners oozing with petty moral indignation typing away on our computers which we purchased because our lovely economies are so strong based on centuries of exploitation. Moving along though (because it is SO important that WE figure out this problem for the backward people of the Balkans)....
First off, I want to respond to people discussions of the "specific" nature of Kosovo. This might be true, but if we are to have any discussions of intl. law/intl system, we must discard this notions of specifics. First, declaring is something "specific" is completely subjective and hence dangerous. Second, in law, like cases are to be treated alike: this is the fundemental basis of law. So, what Kosovo gets Serbs in Bosnia should get, Turks in Cyprus should get, and lots of other people all over the world should get. (and no, Kosovo is not specific because of its "immense" suffering - this should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the world - we have seen much suffering throughout history and still do) Also, this immense suffering is a product of both propoganda and nationalist discourse. Looking at the proof shows Kosovo to be less of the catastrophe that many claim it to be. Where are those hunderds of thousands of bodies anyways????? Thus Kosovo's independence because of its "specific" nature is problematic to me.
I also wanted to discuss Kosovo in relation to the Basques. If we were living 100 or even 50 years ago, do you think that the Basques would be happy without their state? Spain and western Europe have become prosperous and their people more modern. If the Balkans exeperienced a similar development pattern we wouldnt be having this discussion. Even here in Canada where I live, the most militant advocates of independence for French Quebec recently stated that there cause no longer had any hope. Why? because people have become proserous, individualistic, and no longer care for such things. PS The situation in Ireland is still a hot one... dont' kid yourself about that. Thus, discounting discussions of the situation in the Basque lands is strange for me. It seems suggest that those people dont want independence (the Basques) and thus why should we consider them? Truth is it is a product of hard handed security at first, dictatorship (Franco), and later democratic attempts to make certain regions in Spain happy and most importatnly prosperity. And no, independence for Kosovo will not bring that about. It has nothing to offer inthe world economy other than drugs, prostitutes, and old guns. So what is my conclusion here?? I guess that highlighting contemporary Basque sentiments doesn't do much for the discussion of the implications of setting a precedent with a potential independent Kosovo.
Finally, I wanted to discuss some comments which suggest that Kosovo was a part of Albania. Someone mentioned a lovely conference in 1913. Hmmmmm.... what about the history before then? Surely that wasn't the moment when all states/nations were created/destroyed. The fact is that Kosovo was initially Serbian. Did the (predominantly Muslim) Albanians build churches and monastaries 500 or 600 hundred years ago? Although that is not necessarily an arguemnt for keeping any territory in any state, it is one that must be considered and respected nevertheless. What is funny to me is what Paris would say is some of its suburbs declared independence in 50 years citing the demographic reality.
This situation stinks. What stinks even more is how the West meddles in these affairs and makes them worse. The worst stench comes from the petty politicians in the Balkans who latch on to Western interests and further destroy the region and its people lives because they want "freedom" for theor people. Wake up people of the Balkans, the West doesn't care at all about you. When the next Balkan war comes it will be absolutely catastrophic. We will all sit and watch the tv and comment on how savage those people are, and then go off to our little shrines and stores and think how wonderful we are and how we have it right here in the West. So what is this Pole sitting in Toronto trying to say? Perhaps that we shouldn't jump to conclusions about Kosovo, the Balkans, Serbia etc. and think about the impact that our own ignorance plays into these conflicts. Put your moral indignation aside. It is easy to preach while typing on our computers and hoping to sounds smart. The peoples of the Balkans don't need our posts, just our sincere understanding.
Go read a few books and not the ´óÏó´«Ã½.
Thank you.
All the best to everyone.
The comment Tina made earlier on is not true. The churches in Kosovo have been there for hundreds of years. Kosovos greatest battle in which the serbs fought in was hundreds of years ago. Serbia does have a meaningful histroy with the province which should stay theirs. It was their mistake however to allow the albanians to come and live there because they all had so many children they easily became the majority over the years. so i guess the serbs were just to trusting and are now probably regretting it.
How about the EU-countrys sollow their own problems first, an then others. Im thinking of such countrys as Great Brittain with its northern irland problem, Spain and Basque country, france and corsica, denmark and greenland, etc.
Actually Marcel Serbian are the ones who commited the ethnic cleansing not only in Kosovo but in Bosnia and Croatia.. what makes you think that it will work if Kosova will just stay part of Serbia? There is NO WAY they'll go back to that! just go back to 1999 and look at Massacre of Recak when serbs commited those hanus crimes! and YES there is evidence that it was the serbs and NO they were not KLA solders but civilians, women, elderly and CHILDREN!
Do a little research next time :-)
To Oscar Sweden
It is NOT true that Albanians in Macedonia have some kind of autonomy. Albanians in MAcedonia are minority, BUT they have the greatest rights that any minority have and can dream on the planet earth. They can speak in Albanian in the MAcedonian parlaiment.... That says a lot. And yes they are happy. I am MAcedonian, and I am happy they got such rights. However, to any kind of threat of the integrity of the country, appropriate power will be used to protect it.
PLEASE DO SHOW MY COMMENT
THANK YOU
These superpowers that are pro the Albanian people today were against them about a century ago so this may change tomorrow. It is and it has always been in the Greek interest to have Albania as a weak and as small as possible even when it’s not right.
Now about the current reality, how can the Albanians go back to a government that a few years back killed their brothers, dads, and raped the sisters? That’s not going to happen, not with the Albanians (I don't think it would happen with any nation) it will only cause another war. Serbia has no other option but to accept, it’s not about force but it’s about the truth. Would the jews go back to Hitler's goverment if they had an option? Sometimes people have to be realistic, just think if it was your nation in this case and not the Albanians and you will judge is the right way.
Marcel, I surrender.....closing off the Westerschelde.....so why not for Germany to close it's border with the Netherlands. This negative approach that doesn't help anybody. No country can exist on it's own. One of the great things the EU has done is to knock down borders which has stimulated economic growth, which means jobs for people.
I don't know what's the right thing to do for Kosovo, it's indeed a very difficult subject. But I wanted to comment about the postings complaining about the EU's lack of success in coming up with a position that sticks. Let's be consistent please: or the EU gets real foreign policy powers and they will be able to come up with a strong foreign policy, or we keep the current level of authority, and all we can expect is what we see now. I'm not defending the one or the other, just saying that we shouldn't complain about the lack of a common position and at the same time resist giving the EU additional foreign policy powers
One more comment about history that everybody seems to be missing here, looking at the history of the Balkans the Serbs are the new comers in the region the Albanians have always been there as they are decedents of Illyria. It is true Kosovo has changed powers a lot over the years but its population has been Albanian through all these changes. Kosovo’s independence is the only option to a stabilisation in the Balkan's.
The Albanians are not the Illyrians. It is a national myth in Albania - not a proven or even suggested fact. Albanians, just like the rest, are descendants of all the people that came to the region. The Illyrians did not call themselves Albanian; Albania is not a continuation of any Illyrian state or country; there is no cultural continuation between Illyrians and Albanians. This myth is used to justify Albanian territorial claims.
At a risk of being called an agent
provocateur (I'll gladly accept that label)I'll express a regret that Ottoman Empire cannot be resurrected.
The period of Ottoman rule (harsh as it was) was the only one of peace and stability in the Balkans, when people of the region weren't constantly at each others' throats.
The same, incidentally, goes for the
Middle East.
P.S. "Serbia has now changed" [#104]
May I ask how? Has it stopped hiding most wanted war criminals like Radovan Karadic and Ratko Mladic, for example?
how funny that people here act like the balkans are full of savages, while NATO bombed vietnam, korea, bosnia,serbia,afghaniustan, irak and who knows what i havent named. and everytime they regret it and it was on wrong basis. why can the west regret something and be forgiven but other peoples have to be bombarded and made savages. the nato genocided irak why doesnt anybody bomb the nato. it's so clear that there is no justice in the way the west behaves
Mirek... nie plec. How is Serbia hiding anybody? Last time I heard it was not the government hiding these people, but the people who are wanted hiding themselves. You would have a point if the government helped the fugutives, but is that the case? How long after WW II did it take to chase up all the Nazis?! I think some never got caught. Keeping in mind that what happened in Kosovo is nowhere near to WW II, and yet the standards are so unreasonably higher in this...
Serbia has changed because the old regime is long gone. A democracy is in place that should be supported and rewarded. If the Jews can live in Germany these days after the Nazis are gone, HOW is it that the Albanians have a problem living in Serbia? Clearly, logically, and calmly, the reason for all of these claims and arguments is a desire to break Kosovo away from Serbia.
In no place on Earth are the people of the whole country held legally responsible for the actions of a few, and without any kind of trial. Group responsibility is regarded as primitive and uncivilised, and bigoted. Lumping whole groups of people into one box. In every aspect of life people in the West know it is the wrong thing to do. So, WHY is Serbia treated this way? More importantly, a few bigoted people aside, why are the governments using the argument?
Croatia's Foreign Minister is a former Fulbright Scholar and accomplished intellectual and diplomat. Mr. Mardell please think twice before repeating the sexist jokes of immature EU diplomats.
Reka the serbs have been in the Balkans for a very long time and have not just recently come to live there, they have been there for thousands of years. And Kosovo has not been albanian majority always and it is ridiculous to post these claims. The Albanians are causing much disagreement and strain on the countries nearby. Kosovo is not theres and i really doubt that if Kosovo became independant that the albanians will stop there. This is just going to allow them to claim more regions in the Balkans, as they can become the majority very easily with the high birth rate. Well i hope they do not get the chance to steal more land
Epiri(todays northern Greek)
During the Conference of Ambassadors in London in 1913, the southern part of the region was cut off from the motherland and annexed to the Greek state despite the fact that people of the southern Epirus were Albanians of Orthodox and the Muslim faith. While the orthodox Albanians were targets of hellenization, the muslim Albanians were either exterminated or expelled from their ancestral lands by the Greek government.
"Mirek... nie plec. How is Serbia hiding anybody? Last time I heard it was not the government hiding these people, but the people who are wanted hiding themselves. You would have a point if the government helped the fugutives, but is that the case?" [#140]
Oh, yes, it is, Rob..
In 2005, a fugitive gen.Ratko Mladic, about whom government in Belgrade "had no information", was collecting in Serbia's capital his military pension.[sic]
There's hard core evidence of that. if you care to check.
Mike, your orthodox Albanians in Epir are Vlachs, a people with more in common to Romanians as they speak a Latin dialect classified as dialect of Romanian Language. You can still find Vlachs in some remote mountain villages in Epir, as well as in Macedonia, Thessaly, Serbia, Istria and other parts of the Balkans.
The fact that in the Age of Nations there was an assimilation is irrelevant for Kosovo status. Check my previous post on ethnic mixing in the Balkans. The only solution can be inside a unified EU, with Serbia and Albania in, not forcing Serbia to cede it's land.
"Mirek... nie plec. How is Serbia hiding anybody? Last time I heard it was not the government hiding these people, but the people who are wanted hiding themselves. You would have a point if the government helped the fugutives, but is that the case?" [#140]
Oh yeah, it is. In 2005 gen. Ratko Mladic, a war criminal wanted by Int. Hague Tribunal, had been still collecting in Belgrade his military pension, while Serbian government was telling Carla del Ponte that it "has no knowledge of his whereabouts". ;-)
Marian you are funny..
-...there is no other language that uses ar for creating the most important word of all. GOLD. Aryans were called like this because of their fair golden hair. Their skin also sparked like the precious metal. In Albanian language there is another basic word ar which means ploughed land. It is also used by Albanians that founded Troy in Asia Minor. There it used to call Ares. In Europe Albanians used it to call the god of heaven Ouranos which is the distorted Greek word for Aryanus. From this word comes the word ari that Illyrians as good observers of the sky (for that matter they were called Illyrians) used to name the constellation of seven stars near which glitters the North Pole. is In Arabic Aryan is pronounced with a strong rr. Why? Because it is not an Arabic word. How could Aryans be Iranian tribes as historians insist when they were called the white invaders of India?
...the white man is the heir of the Alpine hominoid found in Neanderthal [ne ander dal = ridiculously enough this German name can be translated I come from the dream in Albanian language]. Most of historians were of Greek origin. For them history starts 3000 years ago when they can trace the first sings of Greek civilisation. They forget that humans were not created in one single day. It was a long process of evolution. It took millions of years for the white man to have the same aspect as it is today.
...it is very strange that Albanian name is preserved in very cold and high grounds. One might suspect that if the Albanians or Aryans are the direct descendants of the ruined continent, they must be afraid of the low lands. Albanian never retreated to the mountains from the countless enemies. The truth is the greatest resistance has been organised in Epirus against Rome. Epirus is not a mountainous area. The greatest spread of Dalmatians took place along the shores of Adriatic. Etruscans too settled in the most fertile land of Italy. It seems that primitive Albanians were found of the mountains in the beginning of their settlements in Illyrian peaks. In Montenegro and Crete there are the only Illyrian look-alike race with curly blond hair and rose coloured face. Although they spread also in warm countries.
...in Albania Kreshte comes from the composite krye eshte which means the head of the tribe or the peak of a mountain. While we in the bible call Christos Krisht, in Albania heroes are called Kreshnike. Well there are two words in the bible with Aryan origin that nobody until now has ever explained. They are called Urimm and Thummim. They were two stones that Moses inserted in his ephod. They were used like dice on the ground to talk with the El god. (Yll = El in Arabia and Africa) these two stones are the greatest mystery of the bible. No other language has helped the researchers of the Bible to solve it. Why? Because no serious historian has ever studied Albanian language which is the only language in the world to have a separate group of clauses called Deshirore or Mallkimore. It is similar to the imperative because it is used at the beginning only in the second person. Nowadays you can also use for literal effects in the first, second and third person singular and plural. Well urim is Deshirore and it comes from the word Ouranus. Only in Albanian language you address somebody with O wich is called thirror. To this day the priest is called urate. The blessing that he pronounces and also any kind of blessing, evenb that spelled by your father is called urate. The second word is Thummim which means Mallkim - curse. So coming back to the story of Albanian heroes that were called Christos or kreshnike, I found that many geographic names used in the epos were also places in Scandinavian countries. In Finnland there was the region of Lapp when we know that all south Albanians are called Lap (lab). Llap=tongue & talk too much. I was shocked when I found around 300 basic Albanian words in Finnish vocabulary. Lap in Finnish is derogative and insulting word. Probably the new comers from Asia despised the primitive old Albanian race. The greatest surprise was Denmark which was once called Ylland (Yl + land) = yll - star & land (lende-material, specially wooden matter) and also name of the tribe Tau-land. No wonder that Alexander the Great used the same Viking helmet with the horns of a bull.
The very word engjel - angel reminds us that the ancient people believed that eagles were the company of gods. Zeus, an Illyrian god had an eagle as his guard. Very often Zeus was transformed into an eagle. In the bible the ark of Moses was surrounded by the flying creatures. Amphisbena the strange creature found in BESTIARY THE SECOND FAMOUS BOOK AFTER THE BIBLE (in Greek Amphi means double) was an eagle with the body of a snake and if we look carefully the Albanian eagle has the tongue of a snake and the old symbol had a very prolonged body). It was born In Helio-polis in Egypt where the sun god El or Yl in Illyrian was worshipped
...if that was not enough Avars added the suffix -va, -vic to surnames of their children. Virtually all Serbs, Montenegrins, Croats, Slovenians, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians bear the hallmarks of Sabar, Avar ancestry by adding the Avar formant to their surname.
Albanians are exempt of the Avar custom of adding -va , -vic formant to their surname frequently found among the Slavs. Unfortunately many Illyrian cities in Koso-vo (earlier Dardania), Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and even in Albania (once invaded by Bulgarians and later Serbs) still bear the infamous Avar -va formant. But no Albanian words share the Avar suffixes. Morphologically speaking the suffix -va is unknown to Albanian dialects which preserve the grammatical code of the ancient Albanoi, an Illyrian dialect.
...when I came away from Athenia [it is very important to recognize Albanian spelling E thenie] with my followers, we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta,[Albanians say bertas me sa kam ne krye = scream with all my voice inside my head which comes from the legend of Zeus whose daughter Athena caused him a headache and VULCAN open his head. His daughter Athena jumped out with such load screams of joys that other gods were stunned. To this day the people of Crete have blond hair and blue eyes.
-...the origin of the name Serb from an Indo European root seems incredible. Serbian toponyms in their homeland in Caucasus are often remote to Slavic tongues.
Azerbaijan Ser-Abad : Serboi Greek reading.
Both names Serboi earlier Sabar and Hrvat (Croat) earlier Havar, Avar seem to have originated in the shores of the Caspian Sea. The forefathers of Serbs and Croats were not Indo European but Caucasian.
The names of Asian tribes Sabar and Kavar (*Havar) Avar derived from the same root [common shift b > v, also allophones s/ h].
Serbs (*Sabar) and Croats (Hrvat) were Avar tribes which Magyar sources essentially call Kabar and Kavar.
Author;
STUART HARRIS
Isn't it funny, how everyone's trying to avoid the M-word?
It's the demographics, Euros. The birth rates of the Albanians/Kosovars/Muslims far exceed the ones of the Serbs in Kosovo. Milosevic tried to reverse the demographic slump by ethnic cleansing.
Wherever Muslims constitute 10, or more, per cent of the population, demands for all kinds of accommodation start escalating. It's either the burqa-rights or the Shari'a, or outright independence through an Islamic state. What happens in Kosovo will be replicated in western Europe in 10-15 years. You do not like it, Mr Mundell? Easy: do not post it. But you cannot avoid the demographics.
Mike #146 Are you serious with what you wrote? Or are you parodying extreme Albanian nationalists? Making fun of Albanians? If I got this right, the point that Albanians are the true and original Aryans?! I think the Nazis went that way leading to WW II, and see what happened... I am getting seriously worried now.
Serbs are Slavs (mixed in with previous local populations, and later comers).
Mirek # 144, I have heard of that. Though, how does this prove government support? People cheat the system. To me, you have to connect the fact to your conlcusion. What I base my opinions on is what the EU and others say on Serbian co-operation in this. The Serbs could do better, or so the West was saying at some point, but as far as I know nobody that matters accused them of knowingly and directly helping war criminals.
It's the demographics, Euros. The birth rates of the Albanians/Kosovars/Muslims far exceed the ones of the Serbs in Kosovo. Milosevic tried to reverse the demographic slump by ethnic cleansing.
What happens in Kosovo will be replicated in western Europe in 10-15 years. You do not like it, Mr Mundell? Easy: do not post it. But you cannot avoid the demographics.[#147]
Russia is going to face a bigger problem than Europe, and faster.
This largest country on Earth has a population of merely 140 millions which is shrinking [Aids, TB, alchoholism, low birth rate, etc.], while China has a population of 1400 millions which is growing!
China is running out of space and areable acreage (pollution, desertification, urban development), whereas Russia's Eastern Syberia, which used to belong mostly to China, is depopulating.
One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what's bound to happen in the next 20-25 years.
If you think about consequences of such a reconquista and a subsequent clash (Both Russia and China have huge nuclear arsenals), all other demographical problems start to look like peanuts.
I just have a few comments for what I have read so far:
1) If the facts are taken from the internet that should be the first hint not to believe in them.
2) It doesn't matter who you are including me you are biased on your opinion.
3) Iliria, Ilyricum, and Albania are the same country, nation at least majority of people that study it agree.
4) Kosova is a historic place in Kosova so there is no way that Kosova's name is "Kosovo" even that is the staged name that the media uses after the war in 1999 in all documents before that time it was Kosova.
5) What every is happening in Kosova has nothing to do with religion especially Muslims, there are Orthodox and Catholics Albanians in Albania and Kosova.
6) The U.S is still the most powerful country in the planet and it is not just the Bush administration responsible for giving rights to Albanians but is a continuation of the foreign policy of the U.S starting as early as Wilson, and lately with Clinton, Bush and hopefully Clinton again.
7) Albanians are to be feared by the Greeks and the others because of a shift in power, with almost 8 million Albanians in the region it will be hard not to hear them.
I hope no one will take these personally.
Have a good day,
Ed
#149, Mr Kondracki, FYI: I am NOT Russian, and I live in North America. Further, China and Russia may find more common ground in terms of long-term strategy; your apocalyptic scenario doesn't seem realistic. I prefer Mark Steyn's conclusions on the China-Russia demographic disparities. Please do not deviate from the topic.
I am perplexed by the head-in-the-sand attitude of the bulk of the panelists. Ilyrians, Vlachs, whatnot exotics? It's just an increasingly radicalised Muslim majority gaining the upper hand over a Christian/Serb minority. Islam, as a political, legal, and religous integrated system, is not renowned for its reciprocity, once the numbers are there to support its percieved supremacy.
#149, Mr Kondracki, FYI: I am NOT Russian, and I live in North America. Further, China and Russia may find more common ground in terms of long-term strategy; your apocalyptic scenario doesn't seem realistic.[#152]
I never thought you were, and that's not why I've raised the subject.
I dealt with Communist block politico/military affairs for a significant part of my adult life, and I'm old enough to remember Sino-Soviet clashes in Ussouri region and Marshall Grechko recommending at a (then secret) Soviet Polibureau's meeting using nuclear weapons against PRC on the grounds that "in 20 years it'll be too late".[he was right]
As you say: demographics is everything.
Incidentally, I don't think that Islamic threat to EU is insignificant, just as Islamists' concept of a global caliphate based on Sharia law isn't. It's just that it's hard to find Muslim fanatics in Albania/Kosovo, just as it was difficult to find them in Bosnia. Even for Karadic and Mladic, mightily as they tried.
I'd like to spell the greek position on the matter which is distorted in the previous posts (for example, Greece does not rule out independence).
Greece's position is that the two communities (serb and albanian) have to find a common solution which is not forced upon them. This solution has to be compatible with EU law and principles and take into consideration the aspect of european acession for the region. It, also, should't lead to danger and instability in neighbouring countries (Skopje, Albania). Our target should be the multicultural, multinational kosovo, where all it's citizens have the same rights. The albanian kosovar side has to show progress in implementing all Standards, prioritizing decentralization, so as to create the secure environment for the return of non-Albanian refugees. At the same time, the Serb accession to EU and NATO and it's economy must be supported. There has to be special care for the safeguarding, protection and survival of Serb Orthodox sites, monuments and institutions.
Now, on to the reasons we keep this stance:
1) The status-quo. Greek foreign policy is adamant to no border change in the Balkans, partly because of the turkish threats, and partly because we know better what happens in that case (it would be everyone vs. everyone in the Balkans). And to those saying we fear Albanian threats to our territory i'd say that's laughable. If anything, Greece is more right to claim Norther Epirus from Albania, where it has a minority (recognised by Albania), which is a majority in some areas.
2) Upholding international law. Unlike the US and other countries which do not respect international law, my country has based it's foreign policy on it and can't so easily reject it on a whim. How Germany, Britain and France can do it is beyond my understanding, they can't invoke it on the iraq issue and now violate it themselves).
3) The F.Y.R.O.M issue. This country was a former republic of Yugoslavia. Tito carved this republic from Serbia AND CREATED A FALSE IDENTITY FOR ITS CITIZENS claiming they were Macedonians, as a pretext to annex the Greek part of Macedonia (the Greek communists had promised Stalin and Tito to give Macedonia to Yugoslavia if they came to power after WW2). An independent Kosovo would fuel albanian nationalism there and if this country were to break up parts of it would go to Serbia, Albania and Bulgaria, creating more refugees and misery in the process. How ironic that Greece is FYROM's best neighbour in that regard.
4) Economic interests. Greece is the biggest investor in FYROM, Serbia and one of the biggest in the rest of the Balkans. It has invested more that 6 Billion euros and created more than 200.000 jobs. It is seen by businessmen foreign to the region as a key country to a venture for the balkan region, and stresses this importance in every economic forum. We, actually, provide advertising to draw investments to the balkans, not only Greece !!! The argument for foreign capital to invest in the balkans through Greece crumbles when there's negative news and conflict.
5) Rise of albanian nationalism. Albanians are the only nation in the Balkans (along with turks) having a high birth-rate. If they continue this decline into nationalism claiming any region they populate, the prospect of the Balkan region looks bleak.
6) The Cyprus issue. The sovereign, democratic republic of Cyprus was invaded by Turkey in 1974 after a Greek Cypriot coup, "to re-instate the constitution of the Republic of Cyprus". In the process over 160,000 Greek Cypriots who made up the overwhelming majority of the population of these areas were ethnically cleansed. Long story short, Turkey hasn't reinstated anything, still occupies almost 1/3 of the island and is heavily colonizing it with it's citizens from it's eastern provinces. Turkish Cypriots proclaimed a separate state, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), under Rauf DenktaÅŸ on November 15, 1983. The UN Security Council, in its Resolution 541 of November 18, 1983, declared the action legally invalid and called for a withdrawal of Turkish troops.
Although analogies are vague, everyone understands why it's in the best interests of Greece and Cyprus that international law and UN resolutions are respected.
Finally, i can't stress enough how important Greece's view is to the EU. We are the first balkan country in the EU (1981), and the only one until a few years back. We know the region's needs and we also know that peace is imperative. It's not daft at all to listen to our views on balkan issues.
It is about power and dominance...
It is not about Albania or Albanians in Kosova it is about being part of EU and the U.S or being part of Russia! With the rapid changes in the world politics what we are witnessing today we are in the brink of another cold war. If Kosova becomes independent the U.S presence it is going to be permanent in the region and that is bad news for the Greeks and anyone else that stands against the right to sovereignty. Tolerance is what is needed for it to work but tolerance is not asked of the weak and the small that have been taken advantage for awhile; but the big and the Nobel.
Thanks,
Ed
Both problems are complex.
First, Europe will never be united 1) as long as rich countries use poorer EU countries purely as resources and new markets and 2) as long as each country decides stubbornly to act according to its own opinion on external policies, even though it was outvoted.
Too many different interests collide - Europeans can't even agree about the voting system for Eurovision song contest, for God's sake. So, to represent Europe as a single political entity is just an illusion. It would work perfectly if the rest of the world was also dull (stable and prosperous) and slow. But it's not. So it would be better to describe EU for what it really is: an economic union and nothing else. Since unstable Balkans means unstable Europe, this was a gift from heavens for US. If anyone has interest of having constant quarrel between european countries, it's the US. And they will pursue this course with Kosovo further. It's a pity Europe can not show some spine.
Regarding Kosovo problem...
It is incredible how many arguments here can be used pro et contra Kosovo independence:
- the Serbian state has used force and opression against ethnic Albanians. True. So have ethnic Albanians against Serbs, even during UN's mandate. We have a tie there.
- the Serbian state had commited acts of ethnic cleansing. True. So have Albanians against Serbs on Kosovo. Even again.
- ethnic Albanians on Kosovo say they have to right to pronounce their independency. But they deny the same right to the northern enclaves where Serbs make the majority. Yes, Albanians might say the Serbs should learn to fit in, but niether did they (and they would not like to). Tie again.
- "this territory was ours for xy years". Sure. It was also Turkey's for 500 years - want to call them back? So, it's not a real argument.
We could continue like this for ever. So, where's the exit? No, it does not lie in some race to stone age to prove "who came first". The fact is: Albanians from Kosovo do not want to live with Serbs and Serbs do not want to live with Albanians. Which essentially disqualifies them both from EU candidacy. And niether will compromise. Which ever side we take, it will anger the other one, causing it to be the "instability factor" in the region. The easiest answer would be: so split them and put a fence between them. But nooo, that would mean that EU, US and Russia would be commiting ethnic cleansing, right? So, force both sides to look like it was their idea. As simple as that.
The West is making a terrible mistake if they're counting on these people's moral, wish to live in peace and prosperity and other "european values" - they don't have any, they've shown that too many times (all of them). They all live in past, praise some historic events much more than their economic growth and would rather live in poverty meditating about some medieval (or neolithic) fairytales. I know, I've lived there long enough.
Albanians are obviously in hurry; Serbia is learning to do the things by the book now and the longer they act in such a manner, the smaller are chances of unanimous support for Kosovo's independence. If Serbia had extradited Mladic and Karadzic, they would have had much stronger cards by now (illustrating the distance from Milosevic's policies and acceptance of international law). It is only sluggishness and stubbornness of Serbian government that causes their weak position in these talks.
On the other hand, Albanians are making a mistake too: they claim that Serbia has lost this province in war eight years ago and that no one can meddle in their decision. Well, wrong. If they want to count on the old fashioned results of an armed conflict, they should keep in mind that they did not win this province. Some other countries did and that empoweres them to "meddle".
Kosova is independant in every way, only not on paper so all the haters can carry on with they conspiracy that Dardania aka kosovo is part of serbia
Bill
Yes the Albanians of Kossovo have a desire to be free of Serbia as an independent Nation. And so should they; except-they do not have a legal right to do it. Legal-smegal we will do it anyway the Albanians say. But the law and the UN 1244 are on the Serb side. And no matter what happens, on the paper Kossovo will remain a Serbian Province. And this status will be hanging over Kossovo along with majority of the World's understanding it is a Serbian property. Therefore the security of Kossovo as an independent state will allways have to be guaranteed by someone untill its legal status is resolved.
USA will be the first state to recognize Kossova's status as a state. They don't give a hoot for the principles of International Law. They feel they make the law. Not only that - after they made it they can also break it and change it. Or just disregard it. They don't give a hoot for the UN stand either. UN is just an obstacle.
The issue of Kossova serves USA well. It reminds the Europeans that they can't even pass gas without USA. (And they can't have gas without Russia). It forces the recognition on EU decission makers. Furthermore it forces the EU to provide security and finance this independence of this would be welfare state for generations to come. And I predict they will regret in many ways.
Furthermore the US stand strengthens the back door alliences to Eastern Europe who can see the EU lack of power but are worried about Russia. So they are undermining EU policy and in fact the whole spirit of one for all, and all for one. These EE states however cry wolf when Germany, Italy, Spain or France makes separate deals with Russia.
And recognizing independent Kossovo rubs the Russian noses in the sand.
But wait just a minute. Europe short of UK has no stomach for a war over Kossovo. And UK will not go it alone.
USA is too busy to start another war.
And Russia has had it with having her nose rubed in the sand. They decided to take a stand - Ossetia, Abchazia and Trans-Dnestria be damned. They sent a naval task force into the Mediteranian. What will happen next is hard to predict but I have a feeling Kossovo will have to wait for full independence and recognition.
Having said all this there is only one solution to that poor region. Recognizing that the Albanians will not rest until they are fully independent and Serbia hanging to their legal status of the province Kossovo should be partitioned along ethnic lines and certain Serbian monuments be protected by agreements and supervision by EU. Most certainly there is still room for negotiations and Russia will make sure this will continue.
Mark, 61. First: there were not one million displaced people during the war in Kosovo, I don't know from where you get these figures. But in fact, it was Spain that displaced hundreds of thousands of people, among them many Catalans and Basques in the aftermath of the civil war in 1939. Often outside Spain this war is represented as a battle between right and left, but this is misleading, it was also a war between ethnic groups, the evidence: before the civil war the right wing parties, press and other were accusing the left of breaking Spain by giving too many rights to the Catalans and the Basques; after the war all cultural rights were abolished in Catalonia and Basque country, for 40 years talking in Catalan in public in certain places was risky.
But of course, we should not talk about the past, we should talk about the future, it was 30 years ago...well, we build the future with the past, forgetting is not learning. Nevertheless, today many people (especially certain political and economic elites) in Spain opposed an economic operation because a Catalan company was behind it (i.e. Gas Natural buying Endesa), and the Catalan is in permanent fight for its existence against attacks in Valencia and Catalunya. In fact, a catalan speaker in Catalonia is forced to use Spanish in many occasions if he/she wants to defend his/her rights in front of a court, for the judges alleges no knowledge of Catalan and the Spanish government agrees with it.
"Common sense might tell you who is going to win that argument, but it's not as easy as you might you think. One foreign minister of the Big Three described the Greek position as "a nightmare"."
Common sense says that the EU, and in particular EU officials, like baroso and Solana, which are after all our employees, should look after the interests of ALL their employers(the people of the EU). They have not. No country would ever join the EU to have it take policies against it or its interests. The UK certainely did not and has repeatedly opted out of common EU policies.
Similarly, what's the point of the Eu having one voice, if that voice will speak for third parties and against Eu member states, like Cyprus, for example?
The point is that this "nightmare" is actually the only sound opinion:
-Smaller countries want international law to mean something(like 1244). Larger countries want it to mean whatever they like. The point is that after the 1974 Helsinki convention(borders are set and inviolable) and UN resolution 1244(according to which Kossovo is a part of Yugoslavia), there is no way to recognize Kossovo that is consistent with international law.
-What happens if Mexicans in California or Arabs in New Jersey or pakistanis in London or Algerians in the Paris banlieu become a majority and start harassing locals, attacking police stations and generally driving the local population out?
Judging from their behavior in Iraq,
western forces will respond and against a determined opponent, civilian casualties are unavoidable
-Why do Albanians in Kossovo, who already have a state, deserve another one when(for example) Kurds have none?
When you think of these things, it seems that the Big 3's position is actually a nightmare....
to J. Prescot,
Answers to your questions:
Yugoslavia does not exist anymore. It is just Serbia. Kosovo has declared its independence from Serbia with the consent of UN guarantee of nation's right to self-determination.
Mexicans in California, Arabs in New Jersey, Pakistanis in London... are not being target of a state-organized ethnic cleansing. Check your facts straight.
Albanians now have to states, same as Germany and Austria are two separate states although they share same language, same religion... And Kurds don't have a country simply because of IC hypocrisy. They deserve it. Although they went through a massive assimilation, there are still Kurdish people who do not associate themselves with Turkish, Syrian, Iraqi, or Iranian state.
As for Cyprus, it was a shame to EU to admit it in its circle, in the first place. Remember the referendum? It was Greek Cypriots who were against unification of the island and yet they got admitted into EU structures, while TRNC is not even recognized as a sovereign state. That shows the level of democracy and respect tward international law.
Kosovo case is not a matter of international law; as it wasn't for a period of 10 years 1989-99 when Serbian government placed a systematic repression against ethnic albanians. If gov't repression is not punishable by international law than why kosovo secession should be bounded to such *lawful* obligations?
Kind regards to everyone, GNH, Blagoevgrad