Rapping with a proud Albanian
This week Today and PM are broadcasting my radio reports on my Balkans trip. One of the frustrations of radio or TV is that you can find someone who has some very interesting things to say, but in the quest for balanced pieces reflecting the whole story I can only give them a half-minute or so of airtime. Here, I am not limited in that way. So, over the next few days I'll be posting four different stories about how people are reacting to or . They are not meant to be comprehensive or in themselves balanced: they are a snapshot. But I hope together they add up to a bigger picture.
Rapper's studio
Genc Prevlaka sits on a low, antique wooden stool playing a traditional Albanian wooden flute.
In the corner of the small studio is a long necked guitar-like instrument which is a couple of centuries old.
Genc says he loves old things and traditions. We move from the studio to a control room-cum-chill-out room, bathed in a low, blue light.
The small but well-equipped studio is up a flight of stairs in a tower block.
Although Genc is proficient on the flute, he鈥檚 not best known as a folk musician but Kosovo鈥檚 premier rapper, now on his fifth album, .
On the big studio computer we watch the video, an oddly successful mix of disparate images - fighters, famous Albanians from to , prints of besting curved sword-carrying cavalry - intercut with Genc making that odd gesture with the fingers and thumbs that I am too old to understand.
Kosovo independence
Smoking a cigarette in a long holder, he tells me what it means to him that Kosovo is on the verge of declaring independence.
鈥淟ike every Albanian it means a lot to me, it means everything, we live for this day.
鈥淎lways we had hope, we had hope for our state that belongs to us. I must let you know that when we lived in ex-Yugoslavia, it was unfair because we were not Slavs. We were 2 million Albanians and there was not any connection with the Slavs, so we were originally part of Albania.鈥
I say that it is noticeable that the song is called 鈥淧roud to be Albanian鈥, not proud to be from Kosovo, and ask him why that is what he wants to stress.
鈥 is just a name for a special border. My identity is Albanian and will always be. Kosovo is OK. When we have an independent state we鈥檒l have lots of jobs to do. The name of Kosovo I accept for political reasons, but my emotional feelings will always be connected with the Albanian nation, it will never change.鈥
Next, a rather thorny subject. At one time many Serbs, and some American commentators, warned that an independent Kosovo would lead to a , with the Albanians here joining up with those in Macedonia and Albania itself.
No Albanian, even those few who openly campaign for such a country, accepts the term itself. But I am not fully aware of this at the point I talk to Genc, so I ask the question.
Ethnic Albania
鈥淚 must correct you, it鈥檚 not about a Greater Albania, its ethnic Albania.
鈥淭he term 鈥楪reater Albania鈥 is kind of connected with Serbian propaganda. It鈥檚 just ethnic Albania, so if you ask me for ethnic Albania, OK, it depends on the political scene."
So to be clear: a Greater Albania is Serbian propaganda but he'd welcome a country that included Macedonia and Albania?
His answer is not direct.
鈥淎ll the threat in the Balkans and eastern Europe was Serbian, the Serbian regime. I鈥檓 not telling you that all the Serbian people are bad, but the Serbian regime always for the past 100 years was all the threat to the Balkans."
He says Albanians are a peaceful people and a peaceful nation. "We always want what belongs to us. You can鈥檛 compare Kosovo with Albanians who live in Montenegro or Macedonia, that鈥檚 a different case."
'An emotional state'
鈥淏ut if we talk about Kosovo we have all the right in the world to be independent. Ethnic Albania is just nowadays an emotional state, a state from history. What鈥檚 important is for Albanians to live free. It鈥檚 not necessary, if Kosovo gets independence, to be one state with Albania, that鈥檚 for sure.
鈥淚 can鈥檛 tell you about the future, because the mentality may change, but for now the only vision of Albanians who live in Kosovo is to live in an independent Kosovo, with good relationships with Serbia and Albania. So that was our mission, that was our idea, and that鈥檚 our vision about Kosovo.鈥
It is true that no mainstream politician in Albania itself countenances the idea of one big Albanian country. But on my first trip to a market in that country, I come across a group of market traders, playing a noisy game of dominos at the end of the day.
I try not to ask a loaded question, and merely say 鈥淲hat about Kosovo, then?鈥
The answer is immediate: 鈥淲e are all Albanian, we have one flag and one language.鈥
So one country, I wonder? 鈥淲hy not? Yes, of course.鈥
I have to agree with Genc that this is more of an emotional mood of solidarity that any sort of political project building steam but I think his rap may be getting a few more plays over the next few weeks and months.
I鈥檓 Mark Mardell, the 大象传媒's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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I am sorry but I can't see anyone from the Serbian side have a saying in this blog. Since when Albanian governments just want what belongs to them? What about the opression on the Greeks of south Albania and northern Ipirus? What about the destruction of their churches and houses? It is well known that the Albanian regimes are talking about Great Albania for many years now, an Albania that extends down to Greece. And I am sorry to say Mr. Mardell but Macedonia is not a recognised country as Macedonia. You forgot to mention that too!!!
I would like to tell Qirie Dimitris that it doesn`t exist any kind of opression of Greek minority in Albania. They have all the rights and freedoms that ethnic Albanians have, and I am sorry to say that all the coments of Dimitris are false. None in Albania or Kosovo is talking about the Great Albania, which is a propagandistic idea of Greece and Serbia. It would be better if Mr. Dimitris would explain the Greek genocide against 250 thousands Albanians in Northern Greece.
It is true that some Albanians talk about a United Albania, but isn't that the principle behind the United Europe, or the United States? I am sure if you ask anyone living outside their ethnic state they would say, Why not?
So why is the case of the Albanians special, considering that Kosovo is short of independence? Would anyone oppose Greece and Cyprus creating a state together? No, they are two independent states and they have the right to make their own decisions.
However, it is understandable that the other Balkan countries are worried about this concept of United Albania. There is many ethnic Albanians in Greece, Macedonia, and Montenegro, and they are worried about future stability of their countries. THEY SHOULDN鈥橳 BE! Why? Because:
a. anyone who knows anything about politics (including the current Albanian and Kosovo politics) will know how hard it is for two sets of governments to give away half their jobs. Which PM would stand down to give the place to the other?
b. Economically the two countries are miles away, and any unification would be practically impossible.
c. They are both countries in transition and they need to deal with the internal problems before they can deal with the problems of another state.
d. Most Albanians on both sides of the border like each other, but United Albania is not really on the agenda. And you need to ask the right question to get the right answer on this point. Superficially they might say yes, but when you make them think, they know that United Albania is more an emotional rather than a real concept.
Having said
As a Serb from Kosovo (who had most of his family killed off in the 1980's by the Albanians) I will not comment on most of this article, because quite frankly my opinions and Genc's are so diametrically opposed it would be funny if it wasn't the cause of such suffering.
I Just wanted to comment on this chunk of text:
.
鈥淚 must correct you, it鈥檚 not about a Greater Albania, its ethnic Albania.
鈥淭he term 鈥楪reater Albania鈥 is kind of connected with Serbian propaganda.
You can say that "Greater Serbia" is in fact "Ethnic Serbia", and that the "Greater Serbia" mantra was just anti-serb propaganda. The wars in the 90's were initially fought over areas which had a Serb majority at the time. (The Krajina region in Croatia and the areas of Bosnia with majority populace) and which were in the past part of Serbia itself, and look where that has brought us.
The problem I have with his statement is that it claims ownership and entitlement to the land as being exclusively Albanian, which is dangerous to stability in the Balkans.
The issue with the Balkans is that over the centuries different ethnic groups owned different parts of the area.
For example, at the peak of the Serb state (Tsar Dusan's Serbia, circa 1350AD, before the Ottoman invasion), its landmass stretched from modern day Croatia, whole of Bosnia, bits of Bulgaria, all of Albania and a good chunk of Greece.
At the Peak of the Croat state (during WII when they were allied with the Axis powers) included the whole of Croatia, whole of Bosnia and a good Chunk of Serbia.
From what I have read historically. The Albanians had on 2 occasions had control of Kosovo (not including current situation).
1) Under Ottoman rule, when they allied themselves with the Invaders and we well rewarded with land from "Dusans Serbia" and other conquered areas.
and
2) During WII when they were allied with the Axis powers. When the Albanians annexed Kosovo with the Help of the Italians.
In both these cases, the original Serb Populace was forcibly removed and replaced with Albanian immigrants. In fact so many immigrants settled in Kosovo during WWII that the new leader of Yugoslavia (J.B Tito) just let them stay there, feeling that it would have been too big a job to remove them (plus many argue that this was in order to limit Serbia's influence in the newly formed Yugoslavia) and even then, about 40% of the populace was still Serb.
So Kosovo was never purely Albanian. When I confront Albanians with the above most of their arguments against stem from the idea that they are the "real descendent's" of the Illyrians, who once spanned the whole of the Balkans and bits of Italy before the Slavic Migration, and hence claim sole ownership to the lands. This, in my opinion is a laughable position. When the Slavs settled they mixed with the Illyrians, I'm probably as much Illyrian as the Albanians, if you did genetic testing I think you would find more Genetic Variation within Serbia and Albania than between the Serbs and Albanians, but since when has rational thought ruled the Balkans, eh?
Sorry for the Long post, I hope it was insightful and I thank for you for reading.
Alex.
So will the "West" interfere in the creation of Great Albania, that will just rip parts of surrounding countries because they are the same people? Peacufull? Yeah right !?. Wasn't that what the Milosevics' regime was trying to do (according to the western news groups)? Somehow I don't see anyone in the west saying anything in regards to this issue.
It's amazing how different sets of rules apply to the same scenario depending on which nationality you are... International Law is a big fat joke!!!
Let's state the facts as they are, Dimitris. The Greek minority in Albania have their own political party and schools in Greek and that is in a country that has known democracy for 16 years only.
In your 'western democratic' country, ethnic Albanians have not been able to speak Albanian outside their homes and all Albanian cultural buildings have been completely destroyed in the last century or so. Why?
Mark,
Here in the UK Parliament is debating the EU Reform Treaty (aka 'Constitutional Treaty) a matter crucial to this country's sovereignty.
Why, therefore, have you been packed off to report about the interminable and unsolvable (in our lifetimes) problems of the squabbling Balkans?
Please come home and give some coverage about the efforts of some of our MPs to ensure that we never enter into a political and economic 'union' with these quarrelsome nations.
Dimitris, thats domino efect my friend. Soon as kosovo get its independence then they will join albania, so what you think who is next? Macedonia is still divided on 3 parts an yes that little independet republic is recognised by many countries on the world including USA, Russia & China so probably its a time those people to get united again as hundreed years ago, God help
This story is really funny. If you read it carefully you will see that in this interview all responses that were negative, in the second part are positive. It really made me to laugh.
Looking forward to see how the Europe and world will regret about their support to independent Kosovo.
Did anybody read a bit of history and what is Kosovo for Serbia?
This is great, Kosovo is (will be soon) indipendent. regarding Greek minority in Albania, they were always well treated, even better than Albanians during the comunist regime, and they moved in Albania as seasonal workers, into the filds of Delvina, but what is important, that Greeks forget their own evil ethnic cleansing of the 莽ameria, Vorio (north-south)-Epiri is only Chameria. After Kosova, Chameria will be next
Mark, as an experienced journalist you should avoid putting links in your pieces to articles by 'scholars' of elther Albanian or Serbian origin, like Carl Savich, no matter how renowned they claim to be. They are blatantly one sided in how they view things and your readers will be confused. If you wanted to maintain the 大象传媒's impartiality there are so many other historians you can quote or provide links for, including Noel Malcolm, who provide
Let's state the facts as they are, Dimitris. The Greek minority in Albania have their own political party and schools in Greek and that is in a country that has known democracy for 16 years only.
In your 'western democratic' country, ethnic Albanians have not been able to speak Albanian outside their homes and all Albanian cultural buildings have been completely destroyed in the last century or so. Why?
Let's state the facts as they are, Dimitris. The Greek minority in Albania have their own political party and schools in Greek and that is in a country that has known democracy for 16 years only.
In your 'western democratic' country, ethnic Albanians have not been able to speak Albanian outside their homes and all Albanian cultural buildings have been completely destroyed in the last century or so. Why?
To Dimitris;
Norther Ipirus does not exist in reality...only in the dreams of the right wing Greeks who still claim in this day of age that Macedonia and southern Albania are theirs! The fact that you mention it tells it all really.
The fact that you also say the "Albanian governments wants what belongs to them" also tells how emotional and irrational you argument is! Albanian governement (even if it had ever been its peoples' outmost desire) does not and has never strived for a "Greater Albania". Current Albanian government (which has been the most democratically elected government in this countrys' modern history) strives for Brussels! It just so happens that alongside itself, it wants independent Kosova and Macedonia (not FYROM) and together enter the family that its always belonged to!
Oh and please do not start with the human rights issue because you will be stabbing yourself on the foot here. I am in the position to give you countless references from "Amnesty International" reports on the apalling and shameful record of Greece on dealing with its immigrants, particularly the Albanians, that will make you think how on earth did you ever become an EU member!
Moreso, I think that it is very much irrational for an ancient political forum such as that of Greece to think that our government will do more to accomodate your minorities than what its doing for its own people; which shows how many rights they enjoy in our country...also knowing that what they are asking Albania to do would be just plain wishful thinking for the Albanian minorities in Greece...and that is very much saying the least!
And to John;
Not only does the UK and western Europe have "acclaimed historians" you know...There is more out there than you think!
Most of us have heard of Lawrence Of Arabia (british officer who united Arabs against Turks in 1. World War).
Mark Mandell will become known as Lawrence of Albania,for his work in creating The United States of Albania(Greater Albania or to quote an Albanian rapper expert from this article,"Ethnic Albania" as he put it.)There is hardly any other journalist who has worked more tirelessly promoting albanian inrests than Mark,day in day out.
He says that he wanted a state that belongs to Albanians...How about Albania? Go to Albania.
First armed by USA, and then started a terror, thus murdering police officers and prominent Serbs everywhere in Kosovo. State which your NATO friends have given you on our land is never going to have a seat in UN, and it is going to last just as long as American dictatorship in the world, not more than another decade or two.
大象传媒 is well-known for these stand-alone articles about "victims", and of course a complete Serb population must be demonized in the same. I have been watching it for 15 years now.
I wonder just one thing, why than Britons love to come to Exit, Belgrade night-clubs, our mountains鈥 if we are so evil? As far as I know, only Britons who travel to Kosovo are those well-armed.
And don't make a mistake, I'm not a radical Serb, I'm liberal democrat, but I'm just tired of everything that has been done to us for a generation.
As a Serb from Kosovo (who had most of his family killed off in the 1980's by the Albanians) I will not comment on most of this article, because quite frankly my opinions and Genc's are so diametrically opposed it would be funny if it wasn't the cause of such suffering.
I Just wanted to comment on this chunk of text:
.
鈥淚 must correct you, it鈥檚 not about a Greater Albania, its ethnic Albania.
鈥淭he term 鈥楪reater Albania鈥 is kind of connected with Serbian propaganda.
You can say that "Greater Serbia" is in fact "Ethnic Serbia", and that the "Greater Serbia" mantra was just anti-serb propaganda. The wars in the 90's were initially fought over areas which had a Serb majority at the time. (The Krajina region in Croatia and the areas of Bosnia with majority populace) and which were in the past part of Serbia itself, and look where that has brought us.
The problem I have with his statement is that it claims ownership and entitlement to the land as being exclusively Albanian, which is dangerous to stability in the Balkans.
The issue with the Balkans is that over the centuries different ethnic groups owned different parts of the area.
For example, at the peak of the Serb state (Tsar Dusan's Serbia, circa 1350AD, before the Ottoman invasion), its landmass stretched from modern day Croatia, whole of Bosnia, bits of Bulgaria, all of Albania and a good chunk of Greece.
At the Peak of the Croat state (during WII when they were allied with the Axis powers) included the whole of Croatia, whole of Bosnia and a good Chunk of Serbia.
From what I have read historically. The Albanians had on 2 occasions had control of Kosovo (not including current situation).
1) Under Ottoman rule, when they allied themselves with the Invaders and we well rewarded with land from "Dusans Serbia" and other conquered areas.
and
2) During WII when they were allied with the Axis powers. When the Albanians annexed Kosovo with the Help of the Italians.
In both these cases, the original Serb Populace was forcibly removed and replaced with Albanian immigrants. In fact so many immigrants settled in Kosovo during WWII that the new leader of Yugoslavia (J.B Tito) just let them stay there, feeling that it would have been too big a job to remove them (plus many argue that this was in order to limit Serbia's influence in the newly formed Yugoslavia) and even then, about 40% of the populace was still Serb.
So Kosovo was never purely Albanian. When I confront Albanians with the above most of their arguments against stem from the idea that they are the "real descendent's" of the Illyrians, who once spanned the whole of the Balkans and bits of Italy before the Slavic Migration, and hence claim sole ownership to the lands. This, in my opinion is a laughable position. When the Slavs settled they mixed with the Illyrians, I'm probably as much Illyrian as the Albanians, if you did genetic testing I think you would find more Genetic Variation within Serbia and Albania than between the Serbs and Albanians, but since when has rational thought ruled the Balkans, eh?
Sorry for the Long post, I hope it was insightful and I thank for you for reading.
Alex.
Well Genci is not really making a lot of sense in what he is saying (the "ethnic albania" is not an answer to economic prosperity and n one needs it, by the way the "ethnic" terms cringes me anyway...)anyway...I guess he is too young, therefore not so convincing.
For therest of te curious ones -please do not quote a ne sided historian without doing justice to the other, in any case there are many of those available to please all the nationalists in the world.
We can then decide on who has the rights to ask for what.
We must not forget that Yugoslavia was a "manufactured" state that has been desintegrating at a very costly price.
The last piece of the puzzle must be placed for us all to start (for some to continue) building the future. There has been more han enough suffering in this region...please LET MY PEOPLE GO!!!
Alba
The nationalities in this part of the world are all small, and hence all fantasize about size and bigness. Their mental maps don't match the actual one; also their claims are competing and mutually exclusive. They have all been thieves to one another in previous centuries, but are unwilling to see it this way. They have not always been nice to each other in the past, and so there is still a lot of fear and suspicion in the air. People feel they need more territory to make up for a collective deficiency of power, wealth and status.
What these third and fourth class euro nations need is not more territorial aggrandisement, (as they cannot fully utilise what they already have), but more economic and political development that brings them into the modern Western European mainstream. They need supervision and membership in a larger entity that will help save them from themselves. Both Serbs and Albanians are delusional if they think they can go it alone. They can't, and it's a blow to their pride.
Territorial size alone will not make either Serbia or Albania a great place to live, nor will it alone enable these peoples to realize their potential. It will take time and a new generation, fed up with all the old attitudes that caused this part of the world to languish for so long, to make a real difference. Patience, Europe, you will need it.
Mark thank you for visiting our Land(ILIRIA)
Yes yes lets all jump on the Anti Serb Propaganda bandwagon/
First of all I would like to apologize for any possible grammatical mistakes in my comment.
Second: I would like to complain about all the lies Alexander(probably not from Kosovo) has wrote here.
Before the serb tsars and ottoman sultans have conquered Kosovo and other territories in the Balkans, there were also the Romans.
Every time the conquerers left, the real inhabitants, ethnic population remained. In Kosovo they were albanians, the real descendants of the ancient ILLYRIANS who call themselves DARDANIANS.
As for the Balkan wars, the first and second World war, the serbs have all times delusioned the world, commiting war crimes, ethnic cleansing trying to occupy as much of the neighbor territories and settling it with the serbian population.
Serbia is always used by the russians against the Europe and the western democracy.
It's the russian "Trojan Horse" in the Balkans and Europe.
Dear Mr. Mardell and dear readers,
The issue of a Greater Albania is of course contentious. But before we deny it, or fear the consequences of its advent, we need to understand the extent of the impetus and the possibilities that such a vision might become reality. As a disclaimer, I will say I am Albanian.
As you might have already gathered, Mr. Mardell, for Kosovo Albanians a Greater Albania is an important aspiration, but third in line after to their yearning for freedom and economic well-being. For the Albanians of the country Albania, it is a good prospect, in as much as a bigger country can have greater clout both in the economic and political marketplace. Yet, this prospect has not been fueling Albanian domestic politics or Albanian diplomacy at any point after WWII - until 1991 because the communists had a tacit agreement of solidarity with the Yugoslavs and the greater Eastern Bloc, and after 1991 because Albania has been so used to not talking about Kosovo, so dependent on international help and so small that such an aggressive notion could not take root in its political scene.
Thus, the uniqueness of the Greater Albania vision is that its impetus has not historically originated within the mothercountry, but in ethnic Albanians outside the country's borders - unlike other visions of expansion, this has been a vision of incorporation. This does in no way imply the desire does not exist, but that without the push and pull from the mothercountry, its politicians and its people, this vision cannot translate into a regional threat.
And certainly, politically speaking, it would be very difficult to achieve.
HIstory, ethnicity, borders, human rights, please do not make me laugh, enough of this hypocritical political gibberish.
Albanians have got the money from being the biggest drugs, arms and people trafficers in the area.
The money has found its ways in |American Senate's lobbies....MONEY TALKS...but God sees all!
Albanian are Illyrians because language is indo-european which is very very old language. The Slavic invasion changed the demographics. Also to Greek posters: Ethnic Albanians (orthodox religion called Arvanites) DO live in Greece but are not allowed to speak up.
This story is so one-sided and ssoo shallow it hurts. What freedom? What liberty? The Albanians came from Albania, multiplied themselves over couple of decades and now they are getting a part of the land they invaded.
If the guy is Albanian and so proud to be Albanian he might as well just buzz off to Albania, he is very free to do that.
To make things clear, I do not have illusions, and mostly I am very tired of all this Kosovo story. I just want it to be over. I don't wish that Kosovo stays in Serbia because it doesn't make any point now.
But these stories really make me sick.
I from Tirana, Albania but have lived in the United States for the past fourteen years and have not been in Albania for four. I just want to comment on the sentiment of the "The Greater Albania." Last time I was home in Tirana, the locals were complaining about and having a hard time with Northern Albanians moving there. I can't imagine that any Albanians, with all the problems they are having of their own, are chomping at the bit to be joined with Kosova. When I grew up we always thought of the Albanian popoulation of Kosova as "Kosovars" so while Gence may not see himself as a Kosovar, I am sure Albanians in Albania see as him as such.
The point is that the Albanians in Albania who support the Kosovar Albanians do so not so much out of a sense of common ethnic identiy but rather out of a sense of justice and humanity. Kosovar Albanians were persecuted and masacred by a regime that serves the interests of an ethnic minority which claim the land just because their ancestors planted churches as title deeds when they invaded it in seventh century AD. That is why I support Kosovar Albanians even though I think they and we are not any more alike than the English and the Americans.
And to Max Skeptic I would say only that I wish he could have a chat with one of his country's most revered politicians, Winston Churchill, who sure was anxious to get the United States to see things differently when GB was engaged in a "quarrelsom relationship" with Germany. I'm sure he must be thankful United States deigned to interfere.
It's quite sweet really: a hapless hack bumbling around the Balkans with a brief that could have been written by Jamie O'Shea (NATO 'mouthpiece' for those with short memories). Enjoy your jolly, Mark - you'll have lots of Islington dinner-party stories. Just one thing: please don't pretend that any of it amounts to journalism.
Cheerio, and the best of Anglo-Serbian in your future bumbling!
-Jovica
Mark, John hit the nail on the head. I do not think 大象传媒's policy is to proliferate hate. Carl Savich and 'Serbianna' does precisely that.
Kosova must become independent NOW.
Impressive article Mark, Kosovo is a sensitive situation however what must be understood is that is you go back in history the inhabitants of Kosovo were Albanian, the Serbs came in later. (That鈥檚 the history side of it)
Like it or not it was Serbia who killed thousands of Albanians, so now they have to be responsible for their actions. I mean if Serbia was smart it would not be in this situation where it is today, as it did not have to cause all those wars which obviously was going to lead to loss of territory as it has done.
I mean now they offer Kosovo 鈥渁utonomy within Serbia鈥 I think if they would have done that before killing thousands of Albanians, independence for Kosovo would not even have benn considered now it's too late.
Stupidity cannot be forgiven and Serbia is no exception.
Part 1
I have a serious issue with the idea presented in the original article that, first because a group of people share a language they should be recognized as a state of their own. Whatever happened to multiculturalism? Is the fact that more than a hundred different languages are spoken inside Canada's boarders, or for that matter more than 87 different languages in Colombia and vastly more in African nations, that these should not be considered nations? A common language is not a defining feature of a nation state. Politically recognized official languages are recognizable features of nation states.
Mr Mardell,
I'm neither a Serb nor an Albanian, yet to me your blog seems very pro-Albanian.
What do you think will happen to a small neighbouring country such as Macedonia when Kosovo gets its independence? It has a 25% of its population as ethnic Albanians. Would you also support their plea for joining Ethnic Albania?
Why is it that the 大象传媒 shows this great sympathy towards the Albanians as the great sufferers of Europe, and they somehow deserve the right to have an ethnic state, while previously all such attempts by the Serbs, Croats, were stopped?
Will a minority community that becomes a majority in parts of the UK, and then decides it wants an independence, receive the same sympathies?
To Max "Sceptic" (you mean Skeptic)
You talk about "squabbling Balkans" and "quarellsome nations", yet you tend to forget the Northern Ireland issue, the age-long hate between English and Scots, or even the mistrust between English and Welsh. You even have separate national teams.
Your government, having a better and clearer picture of the benefits Britain reaps from the EU, is trying hard to balance between its commitments and the task of persuading Isolationist blind Brits like you. I'm sure, with this mindset of yours, you can't stand living under the same roof with your own children, let alone participating in a union with people of different cultures. I pitty you. Fortunately (for Britain), not all Brits think like you.
Bear in mind that, very soon all Balkan people (Serbs, Croats, Albanians) will be living peacefully in the same European family, long before people like you open their eyes and be able to live together even with their own kin.
Marc, I visited Kosovo for the first time two years ago. In many inner small cities or villages people were poor. There were only cheap low quality Serbian goods - clones of western products in the shops. I had the impression Kosovo was for Serbia something like India used to be to UK 鈥 a colony. Even UK did not just let India go. But when the time comes, there are things that cannot be prevented anymore. Kosovo will be independent and the people there deserve it for more than one single reason.
There has been too much pro-Serbian propaganda around 鈥 or better anti-Albanian propaganda 鈥 as all the states around Albania have Albanian land and ethnic Albanian populations living more or less oppressed in their territories, and the 大象传媒 readers are never used to hear only facts about Kosovo and Albania. This is why your blog disturbs some readers, as you are breaking this barrier. I personally find your blog to be well balanced. You have samples of what normal people think from both sides. You present their opinion and confront them with things they do not like to hear. Of course one can find always more representative samples, but still the pieces you are putting together fit quite well in the big picture of this particular issue. This makes your blog a great piece of journalistic work. The interest the people show in these comments reflects this.
Dear Leslie (At 05:00 PM on 31 Jan 2008)I had a great shock when I read in your post about "third and fourth class euro nations" and how small they are and how they should let big western democracies guide them. I don't know where're you from but you have no right to label people as third and fourth class! How come that you people are so versed in history and mentality of Balkans. You and people like you have no idia what Balkans are, what we've been through and most of all what do we need now. So let Serbians and Albanians from Kosovo or whatever they like to call themselves and mind your own business.
To Mark Mardell - where is the Serbian point of view??? Does it matter or not really? I used to think that 大象传媒 is unbiased and objective media but your blog and some other articles I've read and heard dissuaded me from this belief.
Monika (24. At 10:51 PM on 31 Jan 2008)
I would love to have a chat with Winston Churchill (one of my heroes). Just to clarify: the US, under Franklin D. Roosevelt, did 'interfere' on behalf of Britain giving much material support, but Britain stood alone for over 2 years until Germany actually declared war on the US.
Thanos, (30. At 08:19 AM on 01 Feb 2008),
I am not an isolationist. In fact I support the wars in both Iraq and Afganistan (and I wouldn't stop there). The decision to take sides, however, must be taken first and foremost on the basis of national interest. I am pretty certain that an independent Kosovo - which will lead to a 'Greater Albania and result in much conflict - is not really in the British interest and therefore am bemused by UK, US and EU calls for this foolish step.
Britain's 'tribal' squabbles are our own, and ours to resolve in the best way we can, and we try not to inflict them upon others. I do love Europe - it's peoples and cultures - very much. But that's not the same thing as wishing to surrender our long-held independence into a nascent supra-national federal state called the European Union. If that's called living in the 'European family' then perhaps it's better to be an orphan.
(BTW, I'll ignore your erroneous suppositions regarding my family life, and have the good manners not to mention yours).
first of all i want to thank you MARK for everything you wrote about albania.your comments have really brought out the hate of serbs and greeks,i am amazed how a greek can write comments that doesnt belong to them,they really aren`t living in kosova or albania,and why do they speak we such hate about us?why are they so scared about?........
I am looking forward to Bradford wanting indepedence from England!
I read almost any comment here.. Well of course anyone has the right to his opinion but let's not make things up from our minds..
Allow me to express my opinion just for the Macedonian Issue. I will try to keep it short.I believe the problem is that people for some reason either tend to forget or to ignore history. Once Macedonia was a greek city-state that was extending up to Skopje, Bulgaria and Albania. Throughout years, it was united with the other greek city-states to form a Greek Republic consisted of GREEKS. So I cannot understand the logic behind the term Macedonia in Skopje. Suddenly the name Vardarska is not good? Or are they trying (and by they I include the international community) to help this nation to develop by stealing history from other nations? Macedonians were greeks, like athenians, spartans and many more tribes.. So waht kind of connection connection with macedonian (Greek that is) history, origins and culture does a Slav that lives in Skopje have?
One last thing: I can see the international community really aprecciatted the fact that in the Balkans only the Serbians and the Greeks fight back the Nazis and now they repay us by stealing our history and cutting serbia in half. Thank you friends
The paradox is that Kosovo wants to be independent in a Europe that moves towards deeper integration and the lift of boundaries between states. What is the point in sending a message that wherever in Europe, a minority can demand and gain autonomy and independence? The point is to unite and not to divide our continent in protectorates and muppet states. The Albanians in Kosovo were oppressed indeed, however now that Serbia is a democratic state orientated to the EU, Kosovars could determine the formula to feel safe in a free and democratic Serbia and hopefully all in the EU.
to No.33
I'm assuming Max Sceptic is British (or at least not North America).
That's how we spell Sceptic. Skeptic is an Americanism.
No one is jumping on the "lets hate Serbs wagon"...I believe its very immature to think so! A grown up would understand that every action has a consequence! Thats why, Svetlana, God says that everything happens for a reason! The general feeling and attitude from the whole world towards your people is and will always remain unfortunate...for a good few generations at least! Why? Because democratically electing (and then proudly re-electing) an equivalent of a 20th century Hitler as their leader and then cheering the masacring of masses of Slovenians, Croats, Bosnians and lately Albanians is not an applaudable or a likeable thing! Your people did it, your people have to live with it...Sad and Simple!
Another simple point of it all guys, is that (whether you or mother Russia likes it) Kosova is now practically independent...move on for the sake of your (what so far looks to be) very bruised future in the region! The general concensus is that people here are actually sick n tired of your "imperialdom" now...there is more interest in jobs and prosperity and (much to your dissapointment) not waste time and lives having pointles wars with you!
It is not important how many Albanian states or governments will be, but what's more important is unity and integration among those countries where Albanians live in order to put down imposed artificial barriers and bring freedom to the free people. It is much like EU has done. EU will fulfill our long aspirations of being together, as well as more other aspects, which "Greater whatever" cannot do, so we are for EU.
So, who is pretending to be worried about "Great Albania", should be worried also about "Great EU". Our national hero Scanderbeg said to us: "I didn't bring you freedom, I found it here among you"
Dear Mark,
Something very interesting is happening in the Balkans lately. It is the re-emergence of a nation, not a state, but a nation, the Albanian nation. It is a great event not only for Albanians themselves, but for any other positively inspired person in the civilized world who supports and enjoys any good news. It the same as hearing of someone who got better after being ill for too long.
Albanian nation has suffered enormously during its history, but just as it's sealed in their National Anthem, '...it will survive, because God himself said so...'. This ancient, peaceful nation, whose only weakness (in todays' world parameters) is extreme generosity, has paid the ultimate price that any family could ever pay - its separation. How sad it is...how unfortunate and emotional it becomes...one family - five "children" taken away from the mother and given away to ABUSIVE surrogates. What other crime can better describe the pain and agony Albanians have gone through?
I am Albanian from the Republic of Albania, but all Albanians are from Albania, hence the name. There is a difference there. The state of Albania that you see today on the map, is an insanely chopped up version of the real thing that is scientifically proven to exist through millenniums. But here is where Albanians make the difference from any other 'map conflict' that you or any other have been used to before. Albanians in the Balkans are reconnecting, rediscovering their family roots, names, names of places, they are all rediscovering themselves. It is an unstoppable process. The experiment of assimilating Albanians - the natives, has failed. As soon as everyone in the Balkans or anywhere realizes that, as faster will things get better for all of us. Maybe it is true that "as bigger the pain and sufferance of today (tomorrow), as bigger the wishes of tomorrow (today)...", but that belongs to the future.
Albanians have been "under covers" for too long. The world should be happy that one of its oldest members is able to once again speak up and express its wisdom. It is true that some of its neighbors see this awakening with skepticism, but that comes primarily because Balkans have been under the leaderships of schizophrenic leaders for centuries and now, only the paranoia of someone taking over cuts down Balkan people's life spans dramatically.
Albanians are back, not for revenge of to take over. They are back to proclaim their 'immortality' as a nation. It is this element the reunites them and not the need to have one single state. Our history speaks for itself.
Albanians want to reintegrate themselves with Europeans, not just Europe as a territory and you don't need maps for that. Maps are very harmful. They usually give wrong perceptions which usually are followed with the wrong actions. Maps are for those who invent terms like "ethnic cleansing" and their followers. We don't want to follow their footsteps as we don't need to.
Albanians are the youngest population in Europe and the real population boom has not been signaled yet. This nation has a guaranteed future and it doesn't need any artificial solutions based on maps to solve its problems. Albanians will always be a solid foundation of peace in the south of Europe. You can count on us!
I think that the idea that a group of people can move into a country and then try to claim part of it as theirs is pathetic and I can't believe that Western Europr really wants this to happen....it would be like immigrants claiming Oxford....it is incredible......
All serious scholars agree that:
1.In ancient times, Kosovo was part of a bigger region called Dardania. Its native Dardani people were an Thraco-Illyrian tribe, ancestors of Albanians.
About the present.Serbs are always complaning that they are innocents.They are right!Serbs didn't do anything during 1990-1999.Aliens did.Aliens did exterminate Vukovar and mass killings in Sebrenica.Aliens did rape catholic nuns in Croatia and used to bomb Sarajevo market on daily basis.Also aliens,not serbs, did killings in Kosova.Serbs are innocent,they are saints.According to the census in 1913 albanians made up 61% of Kosova and 31% non serbs.Than Serbs told Great Powers that this are serbs but they have been albanized!!!Typical serbian lie!!!About after WWII.How could albanians after WWII would have moved from Albania to Kosova during Hoxha's regime where a fly couln't get out of Albania?The very very few albanians who were lucky to escaped moved to USA.I gave you only two sources about albanians being there before serbs but I have hundred.This is enoung to say serbs come after albanians and albanians deserve their indipendence.It is going to work for both serbs and albanians.Albanians will focus to their prosperity and serbs will focus to their future without Kosova.We albanians thank God and NATO for our survive in 1999.Btw some thing that the conflict has to do with religion.WRONG!!!I am Christian orthodox and along with albanian catholics, I can't wait to celebrate the independence of Kosova .It is the best solution for all.
Also about Greece!I can't believe thet they are saying thet their minority in Albania is opressed.Are you insane?This minority whose population is 50,000 has university in greek,and we keep opens their schools with 3 pupils!!!How can you ask for more rights when even OSCE is telling you that Albania respects the rights of its minorities?
Why you don't give the rights of Albanian minority in North Greece and Arvanite-albanians in Peloponesus?How many schools in albanian have you open?NONE.Do your homework and after you can criticize the others...
I am appalled to see that in th 21st century, with access to so many relevant sources of information there is such distortion of history.
Ana I wonder how you passed your history class in highschool or maybe the truth is: That't all you were ever taught!! If this is the case please look beyond and find wordly renown resources for your information.
It is good for you to know that in 1913 Kosova, and its people, who were already in their land, was taken away from Albania and granted, as a result of the the London Conference, to the Serbs.
Dimitri, I am sorry honey but you got it so wrong. You are aware that the north of Greece was Albanian land, and that the older generation in places like Preveza, Arta, Thesprotiko, Ioanina, speak Albanian. I have been there and chatted with them myself. Of course the Greek government was triumphant in killing so many Albanians so the ones that survived had to play it by their rules by never saying that the north was Albanian land.
Genc KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! SO PROUD TO BE AN ALBANIAN!!
What a lot of Serbs and Albanians dont realize is how much of a Balkan culture we share. Many of our heros, like Skenderbeg and Car Lazar fought for our people's freedom from the turks, not against each other. We used to share a common Orthodox (or Catholic) faith, and many Shqiptari still do. Our instruments, such as the frula and qifteli mentioned in the article, are played more or less as different versions of the same instrument. Everything from our village life to our strong national pride is very similar. I'm tired of hearing our people argue about how different we are! We are all Balkan, whether we speak one language or another.
Sloga! Bashkim!
It is very odd that the serbs are playng the role of the victim nowdays, or maybe, even worse for them, they feel victimised.
A few years ago they were trying to get rid of the entire population of Kosovo, by force.
Than, powers greater than Serbia, intervened and stopped the clensing of legitimate occupants of Kosovo. How were the Serbs misstreated here? Maybe NATO should have marched on to Belgrade and not stop at the border to justify the Serbian feeling of injustice.
Mark, thank you for your solitary effort to try to make sense of the whole"Balkan mind set".
Irrespective of any religious, ethnocentric or nationalistic arguments-valid or not-the real reason Kosovo is important to the international community is money-it's always the money in the end! Kosovo had billions of dollars in mineral resources. They have gold, silver, pure lead, zinc, cadmium, lithium, iron, 17 billion tons of coal, oil, and it is the largest resource of copper west of Russia. Kosovo also has mineral springs and huge electro power plants. Although you already wrote a piece about delapadated mines and a crumbling infrastructure, only a fool would think that's an issue.
Kosovo is a Serbian word. It has been part of Serbia for 900 years. There is no reason Serbia should be blackmailed into a fast track EU membership in exchange for their sovereign territory. Obviously, Albanians, for all their talk about longevity,were not in Kosovo long enough to become Yugoslavs-hence they still identify with Albania. I'm not sure what it is about Albania that they want to emulate. The thought of two Albania's is more than I can fathom.
Serbia, like Yugoslavia has managed to remain independent. They had a 6% economic growth rate last year-higher than any EU country.They just signed an oil deal with Russia-no more cold winters for them! They can also stop traffic on the Danube River if they want to; so much for "punching themselves in the nose"! Sovereignty is not negotiable for any country, right or wrong-those are the rules, unless of course, you are the U.S.A. Then, you can do what ever you want. Maybe Albanians in Kosovo should look to their core and remember why they left Albanina in the first place.
With regards to Dimitris remarks, I think they are predjudicial and way off the mark, greek policies and attitude towards albanian emigrants there are shocking and unacceptable for this day and age( systematicaly linking them with prostitution. crime etc).
Concerning Kosova issue and fears of Greater Albania everyone knows(Albanian people and International Community) that it is a myth more than anything else and that Kosova after independence will try to have healthy relationship not only with Albania but all Balkan countries, including Serbia. I also think that that Kosova Serbs should start acknowledging and realizing new reality in Kosova and start integrating in society, because their future is in Kosova and they should not allow themselves to be used by their politicians, who actually use Kosovo issue to divert attention from politicial and social problems in Serbia.
Max Sceptic,
Since when is the EU a federation? As far as I know the EU is a confederation of 27 States. The UK needs the EU and the EU needs the UK. The UK is one of the most powerfull countries of the EU, she could have a lot of influence if she wanted.
The future of Europe: the EU, to defend common European interests (including UK interests).
Mother Teresa is not Albanian(She is born in Macedonia and is a Vlach catholic) , and there is also a dispute about origins of Skenderbeg...Skender is from Iskander which is the arabic transliteration of Alexander.
Alexander the Grate was called Iskander...and so on...Serbia and Kosovo don't have a real history....
Albania, will serve a great deal for Kosova. We will be using their sea ports to get the goods in and out of Kosova. This would stop our interdependence on slavic nations. Nation's which tried to destroy us for many centuries. (didn't succeed). This is the greatest help we need from Albania. Once we have the sea, we will be able to prosper economically. Once the border with Kosova and Albania open we will be working were closely and we will be one of the most prosperous country in Balkans. We will balance well with Serbs, Greeks and Croatians. So, in the future it won't be as easy for one country to attack other. Balance of powers it will be achieved once Kosova gets its independence, it prospers economically and will contribute to EU security and prosperity.
Serb's still do not comprehend what they have done their neighbors, not only to Albanians but also to Slovenians, Croatians and native-Bosnians. I never met a single Serb in Kosovo, or in US to recognize that they have really screwed up everyone in balkans. (most of contacts with serbs i had were students, educated in US and still they would not recognize what they have done). Serbia's will not move on for as long as they do not admit their crimes. Once, they acknowledge their crimes, people will forgive them (but not forget), and everyone will move on with their lives.
Hopefully, our current government will do a better job to utilize well EULEX expertise and gain experience to fight organized crime and corrupt politicians. I hope that our government will offer more to Kosova students (myself) educated in US & EU institutions to bring our experience and expertise to develop our newly created nation.
God bless our people, heroes, USA and those EU countries that gave us support
At last some truth! 大象传媒 supports making of Greater Albania, but it will call it Ethnic Albania :))))
Good for you, Mark. And 大象传媒.
For Albanians, be careful what you wish, you may bite too much. :))))
For some people on the list wishing to become Sahibs, try that in India...
Sorry, Mr Brown just expressed how much the UK will depend on cooperation with India.
Better idea - try local hoodies, there are a lot of them and they need a lot of help. Have fun!
how can you allow a person to just lie and not challenge the obvious false claims?
1) What you say here is amazing;
"Greater Albania is Serbian propaganda but he'd welcome a country that included Macedonia and Albania?"
You should go back to all of the 大象传媒 reports on how badly Serbs were be presented when they would make the same claim about the Serb republic in Bosnia. For some reason Albanians need not to be pressed hard when they make the same claims on the 大象传媒. You are actually supporting it by posting a link to a "rap" song in which big chunks of Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro and Greece are shown as part of Albania. I am just amazed that you would not question this.
2) Also no comment on the claim that the biggest "problem" in the region for the past 100 years is Serbia? You could not ask the "rapper" for 1 example to back his claim with some historical proof? What is he talking about? Is it how the Albanians were Hitlers Allies? Or the Ottoman foot soldiers?
3) Yet another lie you find no need to challenge;
"we have all the right in the world to be independent"
Based on what charter of international law does a part of a country have the right to simply declare itself independent? Please show it to me because I have a lot of Scots, Kurds, Arabs, Basque people that would like that information.
well im surprised too that greeks visited this page and are scared of united albanians,or great albania.
in one way or the other albanians well be on,at least in europian union very soon.greeks fear albanians because their have one million albanians living inside their borders(QAMERIA)and they dont have any rights at all,I urge you MARK if you can visit qameria and make an documentary and see it for yourself!
thank you very much for telling the story the way it is.
with respect fatmir loshi decan
ha ha ha ,,,i am amazed with this vangel,where do you find these information,mother tereza has come to albania in 1990 and has speak albanian,do you want facts,her aunt lived in shkodra or do think shkodra is not in albania,her surname is bojaxhiu that means painter in albanian,and as for skanderbeg his name is gjergj -george for english,and was taken from his parents since he was an infant 3-4 yers old,he was trained in turkey and never forgot his father and land,you need to read more dear,,,,ignorance is a good servent, but a bad boss,,, and i think greeks and serbs are the new era of DON QUIOTE`S
1- so called "one million Albanians" that live in Greece are not part of Albania and i don't think they should be called "albanians".
They are part of Greece so they should be called "Greeks" same as anyone else..!
2- Albanians keep compaining that there is a Human Rights abuses against Albanians in Greece and i think this is just a good excuse to organise so called ethinic Albanians in Greece and get them to join other Albanians to create greater albania !
3- Greeks don't fear of Albanians ! and qameria is Greek
regards
Anti-Albanians never miss a chance to show up. It is very funny to see how once-hyenas, who bit Albanian lands for centuries, turn into parrots and crows in just a few decades of Albanian rebirth. You hear them scream a little and then run for their tree holes in horror. What a phenomena...nature at its best.
Anyway, Dardania, the land of Dardanians - the Illyrian people whose descendants are Albanians in Kosovo, has existed before the Slaves-servients-servs==>Serbs were even a crazy idea to begin with. Illyrian tribes once owned the land from southern Austria down to Peloponnese, west to Black Sea. This is what these scared birds are really afraid of. But they are wrong. Albanians are not BACK to redraw maps. Albanians are BACK to give Europe what it has been missing - one of its oldest, forgotten family members.
Albanians have grown and moved on forward. Those loud "birds" have just gone through some kind of Backward Evolution Syndrome. Lets pray for them.
Mark, I would NOT suggest you to make a report about ethnic Albanians in the region of Cameria in Greece. Greece will be infuriated, and their reaction will be so powerfull (by words i mean), that 大象传媒 would prefer to avoid it. I predict it will cause a war of medias between greek medias and 大象传媒, and even a diplomatic incident for UK.
You can try it, it will be a thing you will never forget.
Darn it, even a Croat like me can see that recognizing Kosovo independence is simply a land grab from the Serb nation. The fact that more Albanians live there than Serbs doesn't mean anything. Imagine that one day, due to immigration, Turks ask for their independent areas in Germany or that Mexicans ask for independence in the US parts of California and Texas -- no way Jose! This is done to the Serbian nation because the Serbs don't have much choice now and the Kosovo Albanians are encouraged by the EU and USA to continue their quest for a Greater Albania. Kosovo has never been a part of Albania unless you count a few instances when they came in allied with some foreign invading power. The only historically genuine land disputes in the area of the ex-YU is between Croatia and Serbia which these nations may drop eventually after centuries of empty but deadly discussions. I don't say that Kosovo Albanians don't deserve some rights, but Kosovo as a land ... well, it simply belongs to Serbia no matter who lives there or which politician from the EU or US is supporting this unhealthy idea.
Kosovo's imminent independence will finally bring stability to the region! Serbia perpetrated crimes against the Albanians of Kosovo throughout the 20th century on par with those of Hitler's Germany in support of their 19th century nationalist myth. Only the US, the EU and NATO have brought an end to this. Kosovo should never have been part of Serbia; it should have been included in the newly created Albania in 1914, with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire in Europe. This injustice was further reinforced by the Treaty of Versailles. Despite all this, many Albanians of Kosovo could have accepted living as an autonomous region of Serbia, as long as their basic human rights and Albanian culture were respected. Unfortunately, that was not to be. The egregious treatment of the Kosovo Albanians by Milosevic and his supporters pushed the Kosovo Albanians to demand independence, albeit peacefully. Only later did the populace support the UCK(KLA), which was a result of the genocide and ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the Serbian Government. (Look into 膶ubrilovi膰 and Operation Horseshoe and everything in between....) After everthing the Serbs did to the Albanians, there is no way possible for Kosovo to remain a part of Serbia. We must finally settle the problem which the international community created a century earlier. A Kosovo independent of Serbia will finally bring peace to the heart of the Balkans!
Marc, if I actually read anything else from you to judge your journalistic talent, I would likely tell you to marginalize this garbage of a story before getting back on track with journalism. The story could not be more cheap or shallow - think about it, please....
First of all, of all people on earth whose lives may be impacted by the Serbian elections in a much more direct way, you selected a separatist Albanian whose pride rests with 'KLA' but whose lips move into a 'peace' motion when asked to comment. COME ON!!!!!
People like you are a waste of time...you selected a problem which half of a highly educated world could not solve for over two decades now and dissolved in on a level of an Albanian rapper who not only contradicts himself in a very simple interview but likely has not even graduated from high school.
Such a waste of time.... Please try to remember the word decency next time you decide to indulge your ego and write about a topic which obviously you have not researched enough...
What a pity Mark that nobody among your readers has ever protested against such irrelevant, although separate declarations in favor of 鈥楪reat Albania鈥 stretching from the Adriatic to the Black Sea. It sounds as if, we orthodox people (Greeks, Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Romanians , Moldavians, Bulgarians, etc.) are doomed to disappear in order to make enough room for other, Muslim nations that are eager, ever since the Middle ages, to invade the old continent in order to settle there forever鈥
What a pity Mark that some 鈥榩ro-Albanian鈥 followers cannot see the real danger for us, Christian-prevailing European Nations, when putting all the blame on the Serbs (for the bloodshed that has taken place in Kosovo, Bosnia & Herzegovina, etc.), and, are ignoring at the same time the unrealistic ambitions of many Albanian extremists who are just waiting to launch 鈥 the next portion of territorial pretentions over Macedonia, Greece, Montenegro, Serbia鈥nd why not over Bulgaria, as soon as the Kosovo independence is recognized 鈥 by the US first, and after that, quite reluctantly, by the EU鈥
I apprehend Mark that the so called 鈥榓nti-Serbian鈥 club may soon become an 鈥榓nti-European鈥 one鈥 And then no wonder that many orthodox people will turn once again all their hopes to Russia as it was the case in the XVIII and in the XIX centuries 鈥
However, I appreciate your efforts to cover all the peninsular and give the 大象传媒 audience an impartial and a realistic idea of how we, Balkan nations, co-exist in the post cold war era鈥
Welcome to Bulgaria Mark!
Vladimir Bozhinoff, Sofia, Bulgaria
Dubya, Netherlands (49. At 04:54 PM on 02 Feb 2008) asks: Since when is the EU a federation?
Fortunately, it is not one quite yet, but EUrocrats are trying - by hook or by crook - to be one. After all, this is the logical conclusion of 'ever closer union' that appears in the preamble to the EU Treaty. If given a free vote, the people of the UK will reject this treaty (which is why our masters are not giving us a referendum on the matter - even though this was promised).
I'm surprise that you, being from the Netherlands, are happy to accept your countrymen's rejection of the Constitutional Treaty being overturned by sneaky politicians who then repackaged and renamed it a 'Reform Treaty' (And then are not allowing you a vote on it). The French being duped by their politicians I can understand - they always have been... But the Dutch? Tut tut.
What's causing concern among a number of countries (Greece and Russia, for example) is the question of "what's next?". Will Albanians demand that areas of FYROM be integrated into Albania? Or Greece? What about Montenegro? That's Albanian territory too?
Albanians, as is stated by a number of historians, moved into an area referred to as Kosovo from which they have no origin, slowly become a majority there, and now demand independence. That the independence is forthcoming is not in question. That it will or should be recognized unilaterally is, however, an entirely different matter.
There is talk here of the rights of Albanians living in Greece. What rights being referred to exactly are however not specified by those those raising them in their comments. Do Albanian immigrants in Greece not enjoy employment and services available to tax-payng citizens? Or is it inhumane to expect a citizen of another nation not in the EU wishing to work in a country other than his own to acquire certain documentation to do so? Greece should simply open up it's borders to Albanians without regulating or controlling the influx of migrants?
So things are clear, I am Albanian (from Albania) and am happy/proud of the fact that I have quite a few Serbian friends. Deep inside we know we have so much in common. We have similar thinking and social patterns, we cherish similar customs, we have similar eating patterns and all enjoy the occasional shot of raki/rakija.
Unfortunately, most of us do not capitalise on what we have in common, instead we choose a language of hate and prejudice against each-other. It's sad.
The only discouraging phenomenon I have encountered is the lack of self-reflection and apology even in part of the educated, western-oriented Serbs, especially in the context of the notorious, 90s ex-Yu wars.
For those of you who care to know a little more info on Balkan dynamics, Kosovar Albanians, because of obvious geographical affinity, have much in common with northern Albania Albanians and Macedonian Albanians, just like Southern Germans have much more in common with Austrians (speak a simialr dialect) than Northern Germans. No one needn't be scared about this. The chances of the establishment of "greater" or "ethnic" Albania are just as much as those of a "greater Germany", or "greater Netherlands".
What is needed is a change of mindset, but I'm afraid the ball is in the Serbian court. Hopefully, politicians like Mr Tadic will re-direct the Serbian nation towards the same "Autobahn" the Albanians long to drive towards -- European integration.
The most people in Kosovo are of mixed Serbian and Albanian ancestry. The Illerians were the first inhabitants of former Yugoslavia. Later the Slavs arrived. There were already millions of Illerians living in former Yugoslavia and the Slavs only formed the elite. Compare it to France: The Franks were the reigning elite. The main part of France was mixed Roman/Celtic around the Fall of the Roman Empire. The most French people these days have geneticly more in common with the Celts and Romans and not very much with the Franks. The same happened in former Yugoslavia (including Kosovo): Illerians mixed with Serbs. Geneticly Serbs are very close to Albanians, Croatians and Bosnians ect. The 'Serbs' who became Muslim during Ottoman rule were known as Albanians. The only 'etnical' Illerian country is Albania. The Slavs were not able to reach the Albanian mountains.
Conclusion: stop the discussion about religion and ethnicity in Kosovo and Serbia. Both Kosovars and Serbs have geneticly a lot in common. Geneticly they are the same people. The only differences are cultural.
Hm, let me see:
- Over 300 000 Serbs expelled from democratic Croatia
- Over 200 000 Serbs evicted from parts of Bosnia
- More than 250 000 Serbs forced out of Kosovo after NATO came in
Are there remaining Croats, Albanians and Bosnians living in Serbia? Answer: Yes.
So let鈥檚 see the effects of 鈥渆thnic cleansing鈥 in Serbia: there are 5.5% Catholics, 1.1% Protestants, 3.2% Muslims and that鈥檚 excluding Kosovo! These figures are taken from the CIA The World Factbook. As for the committed atrocities, no one talks about thousands Serbs slaughtered in Vukovar, over 4000 women, children and elderly people slaughtered around Srebrenica, couple of thousands missing Serbs in Kosovo after NATO 鈥渓iberation鈥, etc. If we in the EU really care about welfare of the Balkan鈥檚 people, why don鈥檛 we let Serbia together with Kosovo to join in? Instead, our politician suggested that we will sign treaty with Serbia only if they accept independent Kosovo?! Something is very fishy here鈥
Actually, what happened to thousands of Albanians living in what is now northern Greece was a great deal worse. If they were Christian they were told they were 'really Greek' and if Muslim 'really Turkish' and deported. A nice way to change the ethnic balance of a region.
In Greece, not only albanians but greek people have not got all the justified rights. I have worked with albanians together and we had the same wages. around 3.50 euros per hour and no insurance.
dont hate the ordinary greeks, hate the bosses that rule the country
we also work hard and dont get what we deserve.
Hello everyone,
It seems that many people are worried about Kosovo claiming Independece. What is the big deal? India declared Independence from the United Kingdom, Algeria declared Independence from France. Why Kosovo is not allowed? How do people know that Kosovo's Independence will bring trouble knowing that Kosovo is not Independent yet?
All these people who pretend to know a lot on History, how do they come up with theories on Albanians Multiplying like rabbits? If anyone tries to trace back one's family history, all over the world where farming/cattle grazing is the main source of income, they find out that mom and dad (or grandma and grandpa) come from big families of 5 or 10 children. Knowing that Kosovo under the Former Federate of Yugoslavia and under Serbia was hardly developed then it tells someone that farming is what they could live off.
Let us try to reason our way through. A cell or a being, can it multiply to infinite? Someone is assuming that nothing stopped this process, that no deaths, no diseases happened. They are assuming that food fell from the sky on these people or that food was never a problem for them. If they were never there and they multiplied later, how did a handful of people take over crowds/multitudes of locals? In order to multiply later one needs assets, needs land, needs food, money etc. They assume that food was always in abundance which is not the case among farmers/cattle grazers. These people try hard.
Please, anyone who had one's way with such theories, find one that makes sense and let no child make fun of you.
@Rezi, post#71
Please just check which one is the youngest nation in Europe/World for the last 20+ years? By youngest I mean ppl under 30 years, in percentags, and than say someting on the issue of natality. Ethnic explosion in Kosovo and Metohija was not only supported by Communist regime, but was planned by the same Communists of albanian origin.
Regarding Macedonia: In response to the Greek's that have posted here on this forum I would like to note that a majority if not all of them are Macedonians who became Greek due to oppression in Aegean Macedonia, the remainder of them being propaganda spreading or mislead Greeks. True Aegean Macedonians either have migrated to today's Macedonia or have remained in Aegean Macedonia what now is known as Southern Greece. These people have become what Greece always intended them to become, lost souls! I look upon all of these Greek's with pity because I would rather live life oppressed knowing who I am then selling my soul to be someone's puppet. One last thing, what majority of the population in Aegean Macedonia now in Greece can speak Macedonian? Most is the answer! Macedonia, a country with a population of 13 million is now a population of 3 million. I apoligise for the lengthy post however I feel that my view is important to the whole scope of the topic. I concede to only one thing, Albania is truly a virus spreading across Europe!
Cheers big ears!
I am looking at this blog comments from an outsider perspective, for me it's pretty simple: Albanians have their own country and should not claim any other country's territory as its own after living there for years. I can't even imagine if German people came to Poland and claimed a piece of it, it's ridiculous! Both Albanians and Serbs suffered greatly during the Balkan war but it doesn't mean one owes part of its country for that. And what right US has to get so involved? Maybe they should give back their land to the Native Americans before asking Serbs to give their province!
You can clearly see the Albanian posts here as pure lies. Again someone above says that the Serbs were like Nazis for the Albanians. How? Where is the proof of such nonsense? The Albanians fought FOR the Ottomans, FOR Hitler, kicked out 400,000 Serbs in the late 1800's;
and then Albanians came in. They kicked out 100,000 Serbs from Kosovo in ww2.
The word Albanian was first used in the 17th century, that is a fact. And the constant lies about the Albanians being Illyrian is a joke. Ask any Albanian to give you an Albanian source from prior to the 19th century who makes that claim; they will never do it because there is NONE!
The Albanians started to make the Illyrian claim after they saw the Croats and Serbs doing so;
it is a fact that all of the peoples living in the Balkans have "Illyrian blood". Some just wish to invent a new identity and lie about it.
Re rapping:
EAST OR WEST
WHICH IS BEST?
EAST FOR OPPRESSORS
WEST FOR OPPRESSED
GET ON COMRADES WITH YOUR ACT
AND RESTORE THE WARSAW PACT
BUT BEFORE SUCH PACT IS CRAFTED
YOU'LL FIND OUT THAT YOU'VE BEEN SHAFTED
AND INSTEAD OF CHEAPO OIL
ALL YOU'LL GET IS TROUBLE AND TOIL
I want to congratulate all albanias in the independence day!
long live free Kosova,and I wish all Kosovars who live there health good life and welth.
P.S.TO THE GUY WHO POSES AS A CROMAN IF HE IS CROATIAN,WHY DID YOU ETNIC CLEAN FROM SRPSKA KRAJINA 200 000 SERBS,AFTER THEY BROUGHT THEM TO KOSOVA,LET THEM COME BACK AND LIVE IN THEIR HOMES!
I want to congratulate all albanias in the independence day!
long live free Kosova,and I wish all Kosovars who live there health good life and welth.
P.S.TO THE GUY WHO POSES AS A CROMAN IF HE IS CROATIAN,WHY DID YOU ETNIC CLEAN FROM SRPSKA KRAJINA 200 000 SERBS,AFTER THEY BROUGHT THEM TO KOSOVA,LET THEM COME BACK AND LIVE IN THEIR HOMES!
If Albanians want to be considered a part of Europe, they must understand that nationalism has no place here. Get over your ultra-nationalist views!
There is already ONE Albania. Kosovo would be a second Albania. We have only 192 states represented at the UN with a total population of 6 billion. We do not need TWO Albanias represened at the UN for a total of 4 million Albanians of this world. If Kosovo Albanians wish to live in an Albania, they should move to Albania where they belong.
Does it mean that for example the Hyde Park in London should become an Albanian territory since there are so many Albanians there?
Very simple: If you are an Albanian living in Kosovo, which is part of Serbia, then either put up and shut up, or go to Albania.
Why should Serbia have to give you part of its territory just because you have become a majority population over the years in one of its regions?
I am surprised with the fellow serbs.Even though Serbia was involve in massacres in Bosnia,Croatia,Slovenia and Kosova they still say that serbs had and were victims too.I agree serbs were killed too.So, were killed germans on WWII.Should we feel sorry for them?Serbs "forget" that they were the ones who started those 4 wars in 10 years...It is a little too much,isn't it?
In 1999 serbs had a chance to keep Kosova within Serbia in the conference in Rambuje,France.Even KLA signed this deal.Check the facts because the signatures are still there.But Milosevich refused and the war broke.
After what you have done to albanians how can you expect that they will stay with you under Serbia?Do you really excpect that albanians will pay taxes to Belgrade authorities and serve in Serbian army?Because that's what Serbia is offering.If you believe so than you are brainwashed.Wake up serbian people!Kosova will be independent and this is the best solution for both serbs and albanians.You will have acces to Adreatic sea through Kosova and Albania and albanians will trade with you.This is certanly better than the war.
Alexander describes, incorrectly at that, pieces of the history of Kosovo in an attempt to convince himself that Kosovo has been part of Serbia throughout the history. I am not going to go into the history of Albanians in Kosovo simply because it would take to long for a comment on a blog. Nor am I going to comment the ridiculous Hyde Park comment and so many other comments above because they are based on pure ignorance. I am going to give mad props to Mihalis Loupis who wrote "now that Serbia is a democratic state orientated to the EU, Kosovars could determine the formula to feel safe in a free and democratic Serbia and hopefully all in the EU." Seriously Miho, I felt really safe when the Serbs sent Slobo to the Hague and then elected him as a member of the Parliament. Same with Sesel...you know the same Vojislav Sesel that came to Kosovo and slaughtered thousands of Albanians; the same Sesel that stated that half of Albanians in Kosovo should be killed, a quarter should be deported and a quarter can stay and learn Serbian.
Alexander, go talk to your Albanian neighbors and try to find one family that hasn't lost a member or relative!!!!
What happened to Albanians in Kosovo up to 1999, happened...that is now history and we'll regard that as water under the bridge but make no mistake that will NEVER happen again. Now, within a month Kosovo will be independent and will be recognized as such even by most countries even Greece (YahSU and EfcareeSTO to you guys). So let's all rejoice, scream out amen and hallelujah..... and nevermind Genc he is still young, just formulating his thoughts but the video to that songs was mad crazy ill son!!!!
ha h a ha you all make me laugh,actually all this hate is fear inside you,this is the new EU racism.first of all nobody has talked about great albania,the are no boundries today,a mao is not evrything,we still will be together,in all the globe and shame for all that talk in that way about albania.and as for illyrians you jim should be educated as half of population here in england, should do,you need to read my dear cause there are a lot of others historians who have written about,anyone isnt changing history,but giving back what they tore apart in 1913,and this europe is giving it back,because they saw serbs were killing,and today greece is the most racist country in europe.because you people are talking so much about us it means that we are important and you feel afraid,this is the reason that you write so much.and now the cold war is coming there are 2 camps russia ans usa,sowhich part it is simple,,,,,,,,and if there are alot of indians here in uk it means it is not their land but kosova is 1km away from serbia dear,
Just to clarify to all the third-party people (non-albanian and non-serbian) posting here:
Albanians in Kosovo are the ethnic population of the territory of Kosovo. So why should they move to Albania when Kosovo is their home? They have a claim to the land before anybody else does including Serbia.
Some serbs don't know this because that's not what they're taught and some do but try to deny it and claim that albanian moved there and multiplied like rabbits, blah, blah, blah which are nonsense. Serbs claim Kosovo as the birthplace of their nation because that's where they tried to fight off the Ottoman incursions in the Battle of Kosovo. Well that's just ridiculous because there were multiple Balkan ethnicities and not only Serbs uniting and fighting against the Turks. The only reason Kosovo is technically part of Serbia is because it was gifted to the serbs by the great powers of the world back in early 20th century. The same thing was done to albanian regions in Montenegro, FYR Macedonia and Greece. If you look at a current map of Albania, the regions mentioned above happen to be border regions with Albania. This is a fact and proof that these lands where albanians live today in states bordering Albania were taken away from the albanian nation at the Ambassadorial conference in London in 1912 redrawing borders and leaving a great chunk of albanians outside today's borders of Albania. So all the international community is doing today is fixing the injustices done to albanians about a century ago. If other nations in the region (greeks, serbs, etc) dont like it's because they dont want to give back what is not rightfully theirs in the first place. It's well known that the slavic people came to the balkans in 7th and 8th century basically invading lands already populated by illyrians in the western Balkans.
Obviously, it's widely accepted that Illyrians are the predecessors of Albanians and no other current ethnic groups in the Balkans, seeing that the Albanians live in half of the same lands inhabitated by the illyrians and speak a language direclty derived from the ancient Illyrian.
Nr. 77 Jim
If you think that Albanians are no older that 17th century, well I guess that's enough for us. Just about same old as the country of Brazil, Argentina and so on. Or are you saying that such countries are not legitimate? There are a lot of rather new nations that are doing pretty well.
Don't forget that in addition to this we have our own unique language.
How about that.
Reccommendation: If you ever go to Albania check, Butrint, Apollonia, Durres (Dyrrah) Shkodra, Kruja to find traces of Illyrians.
For other ballkan nations who want to be Illyrian welcome to the club!
In Albania 媒ou will find that the frequency of name Ilir, Gent, Teuta especially Ilir is very high. No other neighbour countries have it.
Mr Mark Murdell,I thank you over and over again for the good work that you did and I urge you to go to Qameria and see it for yourself how albanians live in greece,for the person named SHQIPERIA he is just being a chiken and thinks that greeks would expell him form there even if he claimed that his grandfather was greek like many albanians have to do that in order to get a jon over there,so SHQIPERIA you dont deserve to get this name or called albanian at all.
Hahahaha (sorry Mark) out loud, "two Albanias", "they should go to Albania, that is their country"? It is amazing this argument is still being used.
To those uninformed "outsiders":
Kosova has been occupied by Serbia since 1913. They killed thousands during the process, sent thousands to Turkey and Albania. Now, the same serb troops, were killing Albanians as south as Durres...hmm. How did we counter such killing? By giving birth to more people than serbs had bullets. May I?, hahaha. 飦
Now, to counter your stupid argument with a stupid argument just for the sake of 大象传媒 and Mark remaining neutral on the issue:
Serbs say that they are brothers and sisters with Russians and indeed call it "Mother Russia". Since going back to 1389 is no problem to you then may I please suggest you go back to Russia because that is where you came from? Asia from Poland just found out that there are Two Russias already. I hope you feel more in favor of hosting those missiles now.
Thanks for the laugh.
Ps. The serbs had the opportunity to peacefully lead the Balkans towards Ethnic States. You chose to fight. I have started to think you really enjoy defeats...
Name" Kosovar" can be used fro those who cam from Albanian state and not for Serbians who are from Kosovo and Metohija. So, please do not insult Serbian and other minority group in Kosovo by calling them "Kosovar"! We, Serbs, have our identity- Serbian!
Speaking about possible independancy, I will quote the article from the Basic Property Law of the Principality of Montenegro, from the XIX century, where our highly esteemed lawyer and connoisseur of national culture and traditions, Valtazar Bogi拧i膰 (Croat), in popular language wrote in that article:
鈥淲hat is evilly born time does not correct; what is illegal from the very start, does not become legal with time鈥.
For those how still don't get it, there is no attempt whatsoever to create an ethnic Albanian state nor in Kosovo or anywhere. If someone in Balkans has waged wars to create such states (ethnic states) they have not been Albanians. Continuously in 80-s and thereafter in 90-s the rights of Kosovo as autonomous entity under Yugoslavia and the simple human rights of ethnic Albanians (political, job, security, education, healthcare) have been severely undermined, and ended up in a confrontation where ethnic cleansing was perform. This is the simple truth that has no association or comparison with in any other case in Western or in whole Europe that is supposed to have an effect as someone said here. There hasn鈥檛 been performed genocide or ethnic cleansing in any other part of Europe.
The question is - what does it say the Kosovo case for the rest of the world? Well, it is saying - too bad for those who perform genocide and ethnic cleansing, because they don鈥檛 deserve to run or govern those people anyway.
Kosovan people, be those of Albanian nationality, or roma, bosniaks, turks, serbs, deserve to have their own state and self-govern their lives just like any other entity in ex-Yugoslavia, the artificial country that now doesn't exists, and whose other entities are now independent countries. Unfortunately, Albanians were not able militarily and politically to hold together their country in 1913 and as a result many parts of Albania were given to neighboring countries in a "trading feast" between World Powers after the WWI. The horrors that followed cannot be described by words. Albanians in all those separated territories were put under all imaginable tortures, killings, and expulsions, be those in Kosova, Montenegro, Macedonia or Northern Greece. The World saw, took notes, and now is taking action. It took them a while to react, but as they say 'better late than never'.
What's most important is that Kosovan people and Albanians in the region in general are the most pro-European and pro-Western country in the world (based on the latest polls) and this is the best message of peace that one European nation can ever forward to Europeans and to future Europe.
One more question:
If the serbs claim the Kosova is theirs, why then, except the churches that obviously most of them in the past belonged to orthodox and catholic albanians, they don't have even single old town or village!?
This is because they simply settled Kosovo after 1913, especialy between two world wars and after serbian bloody genocide in Kosovo 1945-1947.
I have read almost every post. I have realized that western posters have been reading too much of WIKIPEDIA, ( wikipedia can be updated by anyone), you just dont know what has been going on in Kosovo for centuries, how would you feel if 17 of your family relatives have been murdered only because they are Albanian, Serbians (not all of them though)knew the truth and they tried to hide the truth by killing Albanians and moving them out of their houses like they did during 1880s.
I want to refer to Serbian posters, It isn't your foul, you are inspired by your fake history. Why would someone still remind the lost war of 1389?, because this is when your history starts in Balkans.
A Croat poster mentioned that Kosovo was serbia's then why Croatia wasnt? More then 200.000 IZBEGLICAS (serbian refuses arrived from croatia after the war was over in Croatia).
Greece never ever had good relationship with their neighbor countries, this is why they dont deserve to be in EU.
A Macedonian said that Albanians are a virus in Europe, can you please tell me when did ALbania attacked another country ? Never, because we have always fought to save our own territories. 40% of Macedonian population is Albanian who are always discriminated, they fought for their Human rights and they won the war, but the macedonian government isnt keep their promise.
I am Albanian, i am proud of it, because we have always loved the peace, but we are always ready to fight for our rights.
Besides Albanians you find Orthodox, Catholics, Sunni Muslims, and shiia Muslims BUT we still leave together peacefully. Maybe we should be an example for "other" neighbor countries who cant see further then their nose.
I am so glad that finally the most countries of our planet have realized what the truth was. Russia knows the truth too, but they want crises in Europe.
Thanks US, EU and NATO.
I am so glad that finally the most countries of our planet have realized what the truth was. Russia knows the truth too, but they want crises in Europe.
[#95]
Historically, if an authoritarian regime has serious domestic problems or wants to silence an opposition on an eve of elections (Russian ones are coming in a few weeks)it has to whip up chauvinism and point out to a "foreign threat to motherland" and an "international conspiracy" supported by a "5th column".
Moscow (which, BTW, still protects Milosevic family members wanted by Interpol for criminal offenses) has been doing it much longer and much better than Belgrade.
[LAY IT THICK AND SOMETHING WILL STICK!]
Ancestors of Albanians lived in kosova long before slavs which started to com to balkans and on todays kosova region 8-9 AD and abused albanian tolerance to live independently and free as their name suggests ILiRIAN (ILYRIAN) in albanian means FREEMAN what a coincidence one might say, that explains how people with same roots lived in family tribes free and independent from distant cousins. They had been before the time in this respect and freedom was their outmost interest and not territory, had different vision for that stolen world, some of what todays modern world is trying to grasp! They lived continuously in pressure just until less than 1centery ago in central and south serbia and before that on most western balkans. In kosova and south serbia they are still living today, but in most serbia not anymore, so serbs owe allot more to albanians, but albanian are more reasonable and mostly are not delusional. Because that region is not habited by them anymore!