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Hi Tim
Thanks for another great column.

How do you feel that Diego's move from Werder Bremen to Juventus will impact on his chances for selection for the Brazilian National team squad for the 2010 World Cup?

Yet another great blog, Tim. I hope Huracan will get the title, I'll stay up and watch the game on stream. They fully deserve it.

Great article as always Tim.

I always think Huracan's crest is so odd for a football team, but really it only adds to their charm! Velez have had a bit of a turnaround since last season's showing though and will pose a dangerous threat.

As a question I just wondered what you think of the situations at Boca and River; failing in the Libertadores and ailing in the league. I know Boca won the 2008 Apertura but only just, and even that was thanks to the inner mathematics of a three way play-off. As for River well, slightly improved on last season's embarrassing last place but still not a force. Do you think this is just a temporary transitional phase for the two powerhouses in Argentina or does it reflect any wider potential malaise?

Thanks.
thefunkdoobiest

What has been the reaction to Brazil's Confed Cup win in Brazil?

Do you think Pato or Fabiano will be leading the line at the World Cup next summer?

Hi Tim,

Any blog for Brazil's victory last nught please?

Great blog Tim!

Do you think Saviola or Aimar will have a chance in the Argentina squad next season? Saviola just signed for Benfica ( ) and both will be playing together for the first time since their River days. Would be a formidable duo if they can find their early form again.

Hi Tim,

This is a recurring theme here but is Rodrigo Palacio ever going to make the move to Europe? From what I saw, he would have been more than capable of making it but he must be getting on now.

Always great to see a different name at the top of leagues.

Gives Huddersfield Town fans hope.

Surely Saviola and Aimar deserve somewhere better than the Portuguese league.

Tim - what do you think of Huracan's new star - Javier Pastore???

Hey

Wow Another Perfect Post, Well Done

The HURACAN'S top of the table rage is doing well for Argetinian Football
even if they don't win the Title.
I love Argetinian/South American football because they strive on CULTURE,
that't a good thing right ?
I don't understand the comparison with WEST HAM tho?? can you please define ??

Wher in the world is JR Riquelme ?? What went wrong with his career ?

Great post Tim. Thanks for enlightening us about Argentine football, which I know very little. Not a nice picture though, it reflects on the national side quite badly.
I don't really care who wins the title, but it's nice to know it will be a different side other than Boca and River and decided on the last round.
Doesn't the man on the picture look like Felipao's younger brother?
Cheers!

erm.. the blog is about the contrast between the beauty and violence of footballing life in Argentina.

Missing this completely, all most posters can think about is whether they've posted first or how this or that player might, one-day, perform in England or whatever.

Sad news for Argentina.

Sad news for the IQ levels of most posters on here too.

It is nice to hear about a team that are achieving success by trying to play football. I really do fear for the Beautiful game these days when attacking football has gone out of fashion and the one striker up front rules. It is sad to watch Brazil play defensive minded football and rely on the talent of there front players to get them through. It is even sadder that at national level Argentina are wasting the talent they have as they could be one of the teams to watch along with Spain who go out and play football the right way. I love watching teams who play really good passing football, it is such a shame few do these days.

Tim,

In regards the problems of violence at and around football matches in Argentina, and South America as a whole, how much do you think can be taken from the 'English Lesson' on football hooliganism and how to cope with it?

Part of the glory of South American football seems to be the passion the fans have for their clubs and their game but this seems a truly double edged sword. English football has plenty of negatives but the way it has transformed itself from a game being torn apart by hooliganism in the 80's into (arguably) THE model for World football to follow, there are few safer places to watch football nowadays than England, yet the passion and rivalry is relatively retained.

The key elements seem to be to take the devisive elements out of the clubs identity, such as sectarianism, class divides and politics. The fans are free to retain their sense of identity that define them, be that working class roots, a regional pride etc, but the clubs should back off from formaly identifying themselves with these dividling lines as it's sometimes akin to a red rag to a bull. In Europe, some of the bigger clubs have arguably been complicit in fueling continued hooliganism by glorifying the divisions that spark such passion in the fans that then erupts into violence.

Do you think there are any key lessons that Argentinian clubs could, and perhaps ultiately must learn off English clubs to help remove the cancer that is violence in football, or is the problem terminal? How much do you think the clubs are to blame, or is it a domestic FA problem?

Great article as always Tim.

I always think Huracan's crest is so odd for a football team, but really it only adds to their charm! Velez have had a bit of a turnaround since last season's showing though and will pose a dangerous threat.

As a question I just wondered what you think of the situations at Boca and River; failing in the Libertadores and ailing in the league. I know Boca won the 2008 Apertura but only just, and even that was thanks to the inner mathematics of a three way play-off. As for River well, slightly improved on last season's embarrassing last place but still not a force. Do you think this is just a temporary transitional phase for the two powerhouses in Argentina or does it reflect any wider potential malaise?

Thanks.
thefunkdoobiest

How do other areas of South America compare to Argentina in regards to the trouble mentioned in your blog? Is it something that can take a lead from some of the leagues in Europe to find a solution or is the answer found in South America.

You mention business and culture and I think it's an interesting one, especially when you not only having fighting between fans of rival clubs but also within the clubs themselves.

What sort of reaction / coverage does it get from both the media and the national football associations and indeed CONMEBOL?

Although European leagues are not perfect, you would expect Platini to be shouting bloody murder if what you described was happening in the high profile leagues belonging to UEFA.

Another top blog. With Argentinian football's long endurance of financial sufferance, it's good to see some positive news (and I think a title victory for Huracan will do just nicely). :o)

#4 - Fair point though - I've never understood the 'Weather Balloon' emblem either?? Is it perhaps a reference to their nickname The Burners or what?

Anyone know what caused the recent unrest though? Perhaps a silly question to request a rationalisation of that type of idiocy, right enough.

Wonderkid Keirrison is apparently close to signing for Barca, thoughts? And do you think Melo would do good at Arsenal?

BTW - I think Huracan are closer in spirit to Spurs, Tim... in comparison, The Hammers are indeed just that :o)

Ossie Ardiles would no doubt agree...

Hi Tim,

Another request for your opinion of Javier Pastore, and also his Huracan team mate Matías De Federico.

Hello Tim,
Enjoyable blog. I can remember watching a doc on tv a number of years ago about violence and fan power in the Argentine, with 'gangs' even being sponsored by club directors.
As someone who really enjoys South American football, particularly at international level (Thank goodness for Sky in this respect), Ive always been interested in gate sizes, paticularly in Agentina and Brazil. Can you therefore let me know the average gate sizes in particular the premier Argentine league.

Love the blog Tim - My team Birmingham recently completed an Ecuadorian double signing of defender Giovanny Espinoza and striker Christian Benítez. At 32 and with only a short spell in Europe at Vitesse under his belt, Espinoza seems like perhaps a strange acquisition and one that has perhaps caused a rift between manager and board. Benitez is young and appears to have good pedigree. Do you think either have what it takes to succeed in the lower half of the Premiership?

And finally a general question, do you think it is a good strategy for a team who is expecting a relegation dogfight to sign South Americans with little or no European league experience, or bearing in mind that it often takes time for players to settle, if they ever do, is it too much of a gamble?

15 - the trouble caused at English football was/is always by those outside of the system and clubs did their best to disassociate themselves from the hooligans. The lines are a lot less well defined in Argentina and many criminals make a very good living from their 'support' and associated activities hence the internal problems between fans of the same teams to try to control the business. Some clubs also do themselves no favours by employing some of these fans in official capacities when in reality they are nothing more than hooligans. Next year sees the introduction of an electronic ID/registration scheme for fans to try and curb the violence.

I must disagree on one point - English grounds are now the safest and most comfortable in the world to watch football but personally I think the atmosphere has suffered. Any spark of pre-match atmosphere is normally extinguished by a loud PA system playing music. Goal celebrations in many stadiums are also snuffed out by snippets of music ie James Brown samples. Dreadful.

Re the title either of the two will make a refreshing change, although I'd like to see Maxi Moralez win after his less than happy time in Russia.

#24

Having experienced the terraces of the 80's and the grounds of today I can see the argument for anyone who says the atmosphere has 'suffered'... But I think what constitutes a good atmosphere is a subjective question.

My children may not know what a terrace is like with the old songs, the surge of the crowd with a goal and the intensity but the fact I would take chidren to a footbal game nowadays is another key difference. Sure grounds are more sterile now, there is less of a feeling of history and it's all very commerciialised but at the same time I think sometimes people can be guilty of rose tinted glasses syndrome.

The 'good old days' had plenty of positives, but also so many negatives. Today's football is the same, for every element lost I think there have been elements gained.

I can't agree with you about the clubs not being complicit in hooliganism though. Only within the past five years have Barcelona stopped giving away free tickets to the club's "Ultra's" in return for them not causing trouble... despite the fact they almost universally did anyway! Rangers and Celtic both have done great things to reduce sectarianism in football but at the same time, they continue to turn a blind eye to songs from their own terraces that are at times vile with no historical justification. In Spain, some clubs have rampant racism problems but do nothing because they know the Spanish FA and UEFA will, on the whole do nothing to seriuosly penalise them.

This is not to say all clubs are complicit, nor to say that the oens that are condone hooliganism, but it would be nive in the extreme to say that hoolignaism has with some clubs been allowed to run riot, unchecked when the clubs could have intervened more.

erm.. the blog is about the contrast between the beauty and violence of footballing life in Argentina.

Missing this completely, all most posters can think about is whether they've posted first or how this or that player might, one-day, perform in England or whatever.

Sad news for Argentina.

Sad news for the IQ levels of most posters on here too.

--------------------

man you really suck. get a life!

25 - Joe Green. Yep I was thinking more about English clubs links with their violent fans especially post-Heysel/Hillsborough. But concur that many mainland European clubs have been less active in curbing problems.

Matias Fernandez has just moved to Sporting Lisbon. I believe you rated him quite highly as he made the move to Villarreal but barely made an impact. Why do you think he failed to make the grade at Villarreal even with his immense talent?

Tim, pretty interesting stuff. Have Hurcan made it with emerging players? Will these players be in SAfrica next year if Argentina qualify?

Could it be that Manuel Pellegrini has been Real's most important signing this summer?
He seemed to work wonders at villarreal, made graet singings and played good football. Can he be a success at Real though? where the expectations are huge compared to his former club and where there'll be some egos to deal with.

Hi Tim,

Great article. Lovely to hear about a club with such tradition win a league title (or at least coming very close), and disgusted to hear about the ongoing violence which surrounds Argentinian football.

I have a question. Do you happen to know about any good and, not unimportant, available defensive midfielders in South America which could be an assett to Arsenal (the North London version, not the Argentinian one :-) ) We're desperate for some steel to be added to the spine of the team in the shape of a holding midfielder. I only hear about interest in Felipe Melo and Diarra from RM. Surely there are plenty of good holding midfielders in South America? I hope you can name me a few and I'll be sure to then text Mr. Wenger about them ;)

Cheers,
Chris

32 - One such player who for some reason is never linked with any major European clubs is the Argentine midfielder, Pablo Guinazu of Brazilian club, Internacional.

I'm frequently puzzled as to why he appears to be so underrated yet so consistent and influential to Internacional.

He's a very tenacious, fierce tackling midfielder who will run and run and erm.. run! Great attitude and is captain of the team. Have a look for him on You Tube.

I'm sure Inter will be delighted that I'm hyping up their captain! ;)

Matt

I've always compared Spurs with Racing, given the history of the clubs, the current state of them, even though Racing have been further down until this last tournament. Also that is based on the tradition of good football, Racing's nickname of La Academia comes from the period of the 1930's where they literally showed Argentina how to play football.

The link between Huracan and West Ham seems to hold true to me, the history of the club, the ideals of good football and of using your own players.

As for the hooliganism element, it seems to be a little bit in vogue among South American football writers right now given Marcela Mora y Araujo's excellent piece over in the Guardian too, but both Tim and Marcela have hit the nail on the head in pointing out that while English clubs buried their heads in the sand and ignored it, in Argentina and a lot of places in South America, the clubs actively engage in it.

The other thing I will point out, is that in the UK we have the luxury of a pretty well equipped police force that you can rely on to uphold the law. In Argentina this is not the case. The same hooligan elements pay off the police around the ground, so the barras become the law in and around the ground. The barras from there control certain amounts of ticket sales, merchandising outlets, taxes on street sellers, the drug trade in and around the ground and so on. Even if certain elements of the police were to want to tackle the problem, they would be horribly outnumbered and poorly equipped, while also having to tolerate threats to their family and friends by the barras, who have contacts inside the police too.

Luis Fabiano to lead Brazil's line at the world cup?

Tim, excellent blog as always. I really enjoy reading about the South american game and your insights are fascinating. One thing I have been wondering about with Brazil is the 'problem' Left-back position. In particular, I have questioned the fact that, incredibly, Inter Milan Left-back Maxwell has yet to make his Brazil debut - aged 27! I think Maxwell is a good player, pacy and defensively wary, and I understand he has been unlucky with the timing of injuries for Brazil selection. However, with other Left-backs coming through the ranks such as Andre Santos and possibly Felipe of Depotiva La Coruna, do you think Maxwells chances of breaking into the Brazil first XI have passed? I would be interested to hear you opinion on the matter, as well as the general opinion of the Brazilians themselves.

Hello Tim,
I must admit when I saw your subject title this week, I was expecting yet another article about the latest bout of Barra Brava trouble in Argentina. Thankfully you concentrated on one of the more positive things from Argentina this season and that was Huracan's performances on the pitch. I was privileged to watch them take apart (admittedly poor ) Racing Club back in February

......and agree with 'meatandmalbec' and others that it will be a refreshing change for Huracan or Velez to win the title on Sunday.
I do not wish to underplay the scale of the violence and deaths occurring around Argentinian football matches, but it would be great to read more articles celebrating the positive aspects of Argentinian club supporters. Am sure someone will tell me but what percentage of the socios members at each club are barras?. A few hundred maybe out of tens of thousands of law abiding yet passionate supporters.?. As someone who followed the England national team away in the 90s, articles continually focusing on negative activities of a small minority of supporters are sounding depressingly familiar.
I agree with you that Argentina football could learn from England in terms of changes in the culture of the football supporters themselves. I do not have the magic answer but wish it could be easy as exporting a container load of inflatable bananas ; back issues of When Saturday Comes ; Rave music CDs and ecstasy tablets to pacify the Barras. I certainly hope Argentina do not have to experience a Hillsborough or Sky TV to instigate change and reform that is clearly needed.
An interesting story was told to me by work colleague, who went on a football weekend in Italy (another country having to deal with a violent minority). A veteran of watching football in Italy, he was pleasantly surprised that he and friends were able to pick up black market tickets for Milan-Napoli outside the San Siro in view of the police. They were then waved into the stadium even though they clearly were not locals whose names were printed on the tickets. Not only does it ask questions about the success of identity scheme in Italian football, but the work colleague also commented on the muted atmosphere in the San Siro due to away fans being banned.
The last thing anyone wants is for Argentinian football stadiums to lose the passion and atmosphere. We already have enough Emirates and Old Traffords, full of supporters who believe the 'Premiership/Championsl League is the most exciting league in the world'.

Tim Vickery is once again with his marvellous treat from Argentina. I love the way he thinks, understands and puts across football strategies, ideas, history, events and results. Fine reporting that is creating further hunger for the next blog. Thanks and all the best.

Hey Tim, what do you think of Deportivo La Coruna's Filipe Luis? Do you think he will be a good buy for Barcelona and what are his chances with the Seleção?

Also, you previously commented about Keirrison not being ready for a big move to Europe just yet. What do you think of his impending move to Barcelona?

Cheers.

Bit confused Tim. Vélez have 6 titles and a world club title to boot - not one as you said above.

I think that you might have mentionned Vélez a little more - they are a relatively small club that is usually pitched at the higher end of Argeninean football with a great youth system and a ground that is much safer to visit than most in Argentina. All in all, by Argentinean standards, a model of how a club should conduct their business.

Many seasoned observers reckon Nicólas Otamendi at centre back has more potential than any young Argentinean defender seen for many years. Watch him.

Watch out for the referee in the final match against Huracan. Vélez voted against Argenina FA kingpin Grondona last time out and I have a feeling that if Vélez can be blackguarded out of it - it will be done. Rumours also circulating that the Government will declare a national sanitary emeregency against the swine flu this week which would turn a home game for Vélez into a match played behind closed doors.

Finally, a Vélez fan was shot dead through the window of a supporters bus in an absolutely unprovoked attack a couple of years ago. Many feel it was the barra of Huaracan having what they call an interno - a show of strength between different rival factions. Let´s hope there are no reprisals sought on Sunday and that the best team win. If they are let play on a level playing pitch by the authorities, Vélez - a fine footballing side too, although not quite with the same swagger as "El Globo" will win out.

hi tim.after what happend in the usa vs barzil when a goal by kaka was dialowed,and brazil could have lost the game because of that do you stil think that adding new ruls and new technology is a mistake?
isaac

37 Racing got their nickname La Academia in the teens of the nineteenth century,by he thirties the Argentina primera had the highest transfers in the World and some of the best futbol.
Huracan have never been one of the big 6.In Argentina we have the big 5 River,Boca,Independiente,Racing and San Lorenzo.The likes of Velez,Lanus and Huracan make efforts to say there is a big 6 but despite the first 2 clubs exceptional orgainization they just dont have the fan base of the other 2.Nevertheless since the forties Huracan have a tradition of playing El juego Bonito when they had a magnificent team only eclipsed by the "Maquina" of River
The violence here is as most of you say due to the corruption within our clubs.Also we must not forget the Argentine police are not of European standard.Nevertheless the up side of members owning our clubs is as especially in River the socios can enjoy all the benefits of membership such as "Asados",education, tens of other sports etc.
Sundays match should be very good with De Federico and Pastores skill and intelligence against the excellence of the Velez defence which as well as Otamendi has Papa also in the seleccion and Ponce doing so well with Bielsa in Chile.I think it will e very dificult for Huracan as Velez are probably amore balanced team but a draw will do

Great article. There has been some lovely football in Argentina this year but the fact that none of the traditional top clubs (Boca, River, Independiente, San Lorenzo and Racing) have been playing it we haven't really heard of it. Full credit to Hurucan, Velez and Lanus for a great sporting contest and giving Argentine football the spark it has lost of late.

I really thought the West Ham of Argentinian football was Argentinos Juniors. Hurucan is probably a Tottenham Hotspur.

Another quality article Tim,

A few people have over the last few weeks touched on the fact that Maxwell and Fabio Aurellio havent been given their fair share of chances in the Seleção - Maxwell hasnt even made his debut which is baffling!

Here you have 2 world class left backs, playing for 2 of Europe's top sides, Internazionale and Liverpool and they are being left out in favor of players like Kleber ( good but not world class), Marcelo (a left winger) and back in 2007 it was Gilberto - who is gone into obscurity as Spurs.

Surely these two Maxwell and Aurellio at the peak of their careers should at least be given run in the squad to prove their worth. Correct me if I am wrong anyone please.

Hi Tim,
I remember when I first moved back from Ecuador they were griping about some rule which banned international football over a certain altitude, which ruled out the capital, Quito.
I was wondering what effect that ban has had on Ecuador and of course Bolivia over the years?

49 - I can't agree any more. I'd rate Maxwell as one of the best left-backs in the world, and playing alongside the right-back(Maicon) on his club, we'd have some chemistry on the wings! I really can't understand..

Also the fact that Marcelo hasn't been called lately, since he moved to the left-wing on Real. I'm sure he's a better at left-back than Andre?

Thanks for another great article, Tim

As a West Ham fan, I'm very happy with the Huracan reference, aswell as the lowdown on Luis Jiminez.

It seems that Zola wants to play Jiminez as an Enganche/Trequartista (free man), which enforces the comparison even more with Huracan's style as they play with the excellent Pastore behind the front two, and West Ham have always had a rich tradition of these type of players (Brooking, Berkovic, Joe Cole).

The Argentina press reports that Pastore might be moving to Palermo for around 3 million pounds. Dissapointing for Huracan, but inevitable I suppose.

Palermo are probably going to get themselves a real barcgain there, don't you think?.

LaSaetaRubia: Other than your fantastic user name (I believe him to be the best player nobody remembers about, Tim's article on him nowithstanding), you were right to suspect something fishy in my information about Racing's nickname. However it seems neither of us were right, Racing were formed as a club in 1903, making anything stemming from the 19th century impossible, and the idea of having the club that went on to become Racing only came about 3 years earlier.

I was wrong too in stating the 30's. I knew the story of how it came about, but it seems I always got the dates wrong, it was between 1913 and 1919 when Racing won 7 amateur championships in a row that they were nicknames La Academia.

This is where I got the info from:

"Racing Club protagonizó la proeza de ganar 7 campeonatos al hilo, insuperable en el mundo. Con un plantel irrepetible en la historia del fútbol argentino. Racing fue mucho más que un equipo de fútbol, más que una institución, fue una escuela, un espejo donde mirarse, un ejemplo permanente de caballerosidad y de buen juego. Contra ese glorioso equipo no pudieron, entre 1913 y 1919, los mejores representantes del balompié criollo. Ni siquiera, representantes extranjeros profesionales que vinieron al país"

One more thing, Fortinero, if Velez don't win the title, it is through their own fault, not Grondona's. Sure, it is not beyond the imagination that Grondona might have some say on Sunday's game, but Velez have had more than enough chances to make this title theirs already and not taken them. They have led from the front for the majority of the tournament, and they haven't been caught up, but instead, they have tailed off and brought themselves back to the pack.

It is also strange to see Lanus in the position of being by far the best team over the whole season, they lead the overall table by 10 points or something similar, and they will finish the season empty handed. They deserve some trophy for their consistency over the year.

53 one day sorry i was just 100 years out.I mess up centuries in English.Racings knickname "la acade" comes from the teens as i said but the next century as organized futbol didnt exist in the 1810s.But up to then clubs such as Alumni dominated with an English style.However Racing were really the inventors of the Rio De La Plata passing game and totally dominated futbol in this decade.
Re the situation about Lanus being the best team with no title this is leading to a big debate in Argentina.I suspect we may well return to a 38 game league in 2011.

Lasaetarubia, thanks for your insight into the history of Racing. I've followed them since my first trip to Argentina a few years ago. I've been in Buenos Aires for 9 months now, which really has been fantastic to see games and so on, but I've never known for certain the distant history of many clubs.

As for the tournaments, it seems to be a strange fudge of a situation. I get the impression that the idea of shorter tournaments was to stop the big 5 winning all the time, to allow the league to be more competitive. Of course, they will have had to placate those same big teams, which would have been achieved with the average points system, designed to make it almost impossible for the big teams to get relegated, even though Racing have pushed it in recent years! Also there is the situation of Boca and River automatically invited to the Sudamericana and Libertadores, also placating them two especially in guaranteeing extra income, no matter how bad the team are.

My own personal idea would be to keep short tournaments, but also to award a trophy to the best team over the year and to declare them the league champions, ahead of those that win the Apertura or Clausura. Also, I think it would be good to do away with the Torneo del Verano, which serves no real purpose except a run out for the reserves most of the time. To replace a shortfall, an Argentine Cup could be organised, with a Libertadores or Sudamericana place on the line.

The earlier rounds could take place between lower league clubs alongside the Clausura championships, then during the summer, the Primera Division clubs could entre, the round of 32 onwards could be played and televised as one off games decided by penalties if needed. It could be done using neutral venues around the country's tourist destinations like the Torneo del Verano. More games on TV and in stadia, more prestige, more money for the likes of Grondona to sit on. It would only take 5 games from the TV stage as proposed here to win the cup, and the big 5 already play at least 4 games in the summer as it is. It would be interesting to hear what you, other Argentines or Tim think of this.

One day" I hope you are enjoying your stay in Buenos Aires.I dont think it was done to depreive the big 5 of titles but rather because of the fickleness of the Argentine fan who at least in the past didnt bother going to the stadium when his team were out of contention.Boca and River dont get automatic qualification for the Libertadores(entirely on merit) but yes for the Sudamericana.
The torneos de Verano are really to bring the big teams to the big summer resorts where of course there are many fans who dont get the chance to see them.
there have been periodic efforts to have a Copa but I am afraid the Argentine fan has proven very resistent to the idea.So I agree there is some merit to your idea but history is against it and of course the AFA has a responsibility to bring big futbol to Mar Del Plata etc
Have you been to many games what is your opinion?

The kind of article I love to read. Since Ive been reading Tim's blogs, it has become clear how narrow minded the british press is concerning world football. The champions league is not the world! I enjoy hearing about events across the world, that would otherwise have passed under the radar. Long may it continue!

hope it can come true

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