Adebayor's started so well for Man City
A complaint about the chavs discussion
I came in this morning to 9 emails from a listener complaining about the chavs chat we had yesterday. Here's one of them...
To Victoria Derbyshire at Radio 5.
"Having listened to your interview with Professor Carl Chinn on Wednesday 16th January, and the subsequent debate, I feel compelled to tell you how disgusted I am with your arrogant middle class prejudice and snobbery. I feel ashamed to even be of the same species and let alone the same society as anyone as disgusting as yourself and your listeners whose comments you read out. You are a complete disgrace to humanity.
The term chav is used by the middle and upper classes of England, purely as a classist and racist insult with the direct purpose of degrading and demeaning, belittling and ridiculing the white working class, because the these middle class snobs are desperate to assert their own perceived superiority over people who are poorer, less educated, less resourceful, and fundamentally, less able to stand up and defend themselves from your persistent onslaught.
Your behaviour is no less acceptable than any other typical school yard or back street bully, who just like yourselves, always look for the easiest and most convenient victim to bully, especially a victim who the bully realises will not, or is unable to, stand up to the bullying, therefore allowing repeated attacks.
You and your listeners pathetic attempts to excuse your snob based bullying by trying to hide behind the banner of humour, does not hold, any credibility whatsoever, any more than it would to excuse the equivalent bullying of someone based on any of your other middle class prejudices, that have know become less convenient and less comfortable for you to use, such as a 鈥渏oke about a thick Irishman, a smelly paki, or a drug taking nigger鈥. You would not allow such 鈥渉umour鈥 to be even broadcast, let alone have the cheek to then condone or excuse it as humour, and these constant comments about chavs are EXACTLY the same thing, except that the target is fat promiscuous aging women, muslims, Jews, immigrants, disabled people or any other target the is slightly less easy to you to target than the white working class.
Professor Chinn hit the nail on the head when he explained the similarity with the attitude that the Nazis promoted in the culture, of stereotyping and lining up the easiest targets to abuse, and I expect, as with the Nazis, who probably also used a lot of 鈥渉umour鈥 about non-Germans who they viewed as sub-human, such as the Slavs of Eastern Europe, to start of their targeting, that the abuse and bullying will only grow in the future, as it did in Germany then..."
The email continues for a few more paragraphs.
Do you agree with him?
I have to disagree, for a start there are a number of people who self label themselves as "chav's", so it can't be that degrading for them.
This also combined with often high levels of anti-social behaviour that accompanies these particular groups, does not exactly lend them to sympathy.
I have to agree with some of the previous callers, if young people exhibit repeated antisocial behaviour then they should be sent on some kind of boot camp.
The people that are talking about it being the parents fault are spot on. One of my parents is an infant school teacher and often finds that even at that age parents completely fail to teach their child right from wrong and how to behave. The result being that the teachers having to try to control the child in school while they are inevitably allowed to run riot at home; one can only wonder what these same children are like by the time they get to secondary education.
I have to ask has the person who wrote that letter not the same person (or perhaps friend/relative of) the person who came across as self-righteous, arrogant and hostile in the radio interview (I forget his name but he can be categorised as the one who said "No, that's not what I'm saying," "You're putting words in my mouth." etc.).
I'm sorry but these people need to get a life.
Yes, a chav is used to categorise a certain type of person (based on behaviour, dress sense, attitude etc) but so are terms such as mods, rockers, emos and even...sweaties (a term I recently discovered for followers of heavy metal!).
I find none of these terms derogatory. On the contrary I think they're amusing.
And this is coming from a self-confessed sweaty!
Keep up the good work Victoria.
After reading the above comments, I begin to realise how difficult a job you have, not to be seen as taking one side or the other. I did not get the impression you were saying the use of the word was acceptable or not.
How can someone get so wound up about a little thing like the word chav? From the interviews with young people on your programme I got the impression they were not too worried about the term, in fact most of the time they seemed to enjoy it.
I think the day of the thought police is getting closer.
the person complaining about the way you were talking about the chavs, obviously thinks that kids running around past midnight terrorising people is the norm!!!!! i really would like to know if he goes to spec savers because his world looks all rosey and bright and i would love a pair of his glasses. maybe all the chavs should move to his street. then maybe he might change his mind
I have to agree with James I'm afraid. There are a number of "chavs" in our area that pride themselves on being called just that..
I can't believe the e-mail you had about Chav discussion, about you being a middle class snob etc. For one thing that e-mailer has called you names, and for another, you are doing your job, which in mind means asking all sides to all questions, and doesn't mean you actually think those things yourself. How stupid are some of the listeners!!!
The term chav is a useful way of describing a growing underclass who are ruining the fabric of our society by inflicting their base patterns of behaviour upon the rest of us. It is hard to imagine in today's climate of do-what-you-wish social liberalism and that their growth in numbers can be arrested but that does not mean that it is wrong to condemn them, or express a view that the country would be much better with out them.
I currently work with young people in care -care manager-after listening to the debate this morning and comments made from guest speakers regarding society and its ill's -included the memeber of parliment-I must in no particular order state the obvious-the care system in this country is under extreme pressure-the courts are not able to cope with the number of young people before them - youth offending teams are not able to support the system after sentence -lack of manpower-the care system is under change led by government and is unable to cope-lack of funding and manpower-young people today have serious issues regarding substance misuse- heavy - and in some cases daily -intake of chemicals designed to cause damage and addiction-attacks on staff teams are on the up with no defence methods in place-young people suffering from mental health issues and should be assessed by professionals within childrens services-C.A.M.H.S are on overload - unable to cope- a complete generation of young people placed in care are not attending education and remain at the mercy of adult abusers-drug related and other forms-no parental direction leaving many thousands of young people intent on self distruction supplied through the drug culture-incidents of serious attacks and the breakdown in our society will continue and become more violent toward the general public unless this and every government listen to the work force on the front line and not individuals with only protection within the blame culture at present pointed toward young people-train the professionals-have promoted programmes designed toward the care officer we have young people with serious issues no longer sentenced to custody through the courts-we have far too many young people in prison now to cope-they the serious offenders in many cases are in care homes and in the system with nowhere to go-and no support- society is in danger of the minority replacing the majority in anti social practice-not all young people are bad in care or otherwise-the problems are we have a great many with little or no help through our failures-governments past and present-catch up time-please be aware this will continue you will hear of familys broken through serious attacks-stabbings-shottings-incidents of anti social practice-do listen to those who promote the we must understand-before we can understand we need assessment of serious breakdowns within our society.
Dear Victoria
Re: Dangerous Young People
Some months ago on Question Time (大象传媒 1) a very well known journalist Yasmin Alabi Brown
in a discussion of the above topic made the following very telling observation (I paraphrase)
"I came to the United Kingdom in 1972 and almost within a year of my arrival I began to notice a steady and, now persistent decline in approriate respect for authority, increasing anti social behaviour among everyone (not just young people). What's been happening ?"
Let me enlighten you.
If for over twenty years, almost weekly, you have a popular (and populist) programme on TV which goes out of its way to snigger, sneer,
"badmouth" and caricature figures of authority....police, teachers, social workers, public officials. If you leaven this with constant assertions that people stand up for their "rights," complain about anything (and anyone) in a position of authority, insist that what happens is only what you want to happen. Add to that a constant disparagement of anyone who insists on putting limits/boundaries on the behaviour of young people and children then you get what we have today.
A society descending into a morass of
"I know my rights" "You can't tell me what to do"
(And that's only the children). You also have, as I came across in the field of education, eight year old girls telling male primary schoolteachers
"If you tell me off again I'll phone Childline and tell them you molested me !"
Now what programme, and just who could I be writing about ?
Guessed it yet ?
Ironically one person involved with this programme is now a Cabinet Minister. The other is a living canonised saint !.
Still not guessed it ?
Ah well ! That's life !
Tony Murphy
Complete nonsense... I am not middle or upper class, I know people who are chavs, I went to school with people who are chavs, I live near people who are chavs, I have family members who are chavs. They are not easy to define, they're a wide range of people, some people look like chavs, but don't act like chavs, some people act like chavs, but don't appear to be chavs. It's not like defining goths, punks, hippies or gays for example. There are chavs with wealthy families and there are chavs who live in poverty. There are well educated chavs and there are school drop out chavs. The one trait they all share is that they have no respect for others, they have false morals and a loyalty only to each other which they will betray at the drop of a hat (most likely a burberry cap).
I'm only 26, but I remember 10 years ago being scared out of my witts when a couple of police officers came around the corner whilst we were filling a phone box with snow. It's the only thing that I've ever done which come close to getting me in trouble with the police. I've never ran so fast in my life! I kind of get a similar feeling when I see blue lights in my rear view mirror, whether I've done something wrong or not. What makes me feel like that is the same thing as waht made me listen to my mum when she told me that my dad was on the way home, he never once hit me (my mum would, but I deserved it and probably more, looking back I would have hit me harder!) but I was scared, really scared, that if I didn't do as I was told my dad would sort me out. It worked everytime and I swear that's why I never got in to trouble with the police, I was scared of the consequences. Kids today realise that there are no consequences, they can get away with almost anything, the worst they will get is a caution and that's if they get caught. I would love to know what it would be like so say... smash a car up with a baseball bat, I mean, it must be fun! But would never consider doing anything like that to someone or to someones property. I go paintballing every weekend and love shooting my mates and we start fires in the woods to keep us warm, but I'd never start a fire in a park or bus shelter or go around hurting people who don't want to be hurt! I have respect for people and their property. It's the way I've been brought up. The police need to demand respect, they need the yobs to fear for their lives if they're confronted with a police officer, there's only one way this will happen. A blind eye should be turned if a police officer roughs up a yob because he's been cheeking an officer or abusing the public. If I'd have been caught by the officer who chased me then I would have expected a bit of harsh treatment. If you do nothing wrong, you won't get beaten up by a police officer and if you do, by some mistake, then it's a shame, but it's not a perfect world. What's better, one wrongly knocked about kid, or a nation held to ransom by yobs. The alcohol might be a problem, but don't make us pay more for their aduse of it. The best idea would be to limit the availability, reduce the number of shops selling alcohol and maybe only sell to over 25's in off licenses between certain hours etc.
Shut up you idiot. the term "chav" relates to someone who has no class and no care or respect for society.
The fact that most of them are poor reflects their total lack of ambition to bring themselves out of this situation or behave with even a modicum of slef repect. The very fact that you have chosen to explain in intricate detail the nature of the gigantic chip on your shoulder says it all: you are clearly small minded and stupid.
Nobody I know says that working class people are chavs - the true working class have excellent moral values and are acutely aware that there are standards by which we have to live to protect our way of life. Chavs are people who do not understand this.
To compare this to what happened in Nazi Germany is not only spectacularly stupid, but unbelievably disrespectful to the Jewish community and those who died in the Holocaust - you are essentially saying that the Jews during the war were a sub-class who had opted out of society by relying on benefits to pay for their gold jewellry and who were under the impression that upholding moral values and standards of behaviour were irrelevant to society.
Brush your shoulder down and see chavs for what they are - not working class but deserving of no class.
I thought the chav debate was hilarious and should have been saved till April 1st!
I agree with your listeners who said that Carl Chinn was being too politically correct.
The other comment I found amusing was that the discussion (which turned chaotic at one point) sounded like a typical chav wedding.
Overall it was great to listen too especially when Cheryl got involved.
I have a question ... was Cheryl the inspiration for Little Britain's 'Vicky Pollard' ??
I find her comments are the offensive ones.
I am working class, served my country for 18 years in the Forces and now returned to University to better myself, and hopefully become a teacher. I haven't reached 40 yet but feel I have a lifetime of experience, not only with my military travels but my four kids range between 6 and 15.
The term Chav isn't aimed at the working class, its an underclass. Working class people work, Chav's are underclass, refusing to work and live on benefits. We have a major issue with 'Chav's' in our village, just sitting around in gangs giving innocent passes by comments. These people have been made by a society that rewards drop outs and criminals, it won't change until the government grows some balls and takes their benefits off them forcing them to work.
The chav debate was characterised by incoherent argument and low quality jouralism that missed the point completely.
Calling 'chav' a racist term was about the most bizarre thing I heard, anyone who has lived in the UK for ten minutes over the last year or two knows that 'chav' is most certainly not a racist term.
Both extremes of the argument were stupid, one side wouldn't allow anyone to generalise by using any words at all, this would make it tricky to communicate at all.
The other side felt that they could say anything that they wanted and it was just fun.
The truth is somewhere inbetween and it's not the most exciting of arguments.
Makes a change from bashing GPs and dentists though.
You are an idiot.
The term "chav" relates to someone who has no class and no care or respect for society.
The fact that most of them are poor reflects their total lack of ambition to bring themselves out of this situation or behave with even a modicum of slef repect. The very fact that you have chosen to explain in intricate detail the nature of the gigantic chip on your shoulder says it all: you are clearly small minded and stupid.
Nobody I know says that working class people are chavs - the true working class have excellent moral values and are acutely aware that there are standards by which we have to live to protect our way of life. Chavs are people who do not understand this.
To compare this to what happened in Nazi Germany is not only spectacularly stupid, but unbelievably disrespectful to the Jewish community and those who died in the Holocaust - you are essentially saying that the Jews during the war were a sub-class who had opted out of society by relying on benefits to pay for their gold jewellry and who were under the impression that upholding moral values and standards of behaviour were irrelevant to society.
Brush your shoulder down and see chavs for what they are - not working class but undeserving of classification.
Yes I agree that is snobbery and a form of belittling and bullying. I don't agree that any radio presenter can be blamed completly when they try to provoke a response. That I blame on the teaching of radio presentation.