´óÏó´«Ã½

I was happy to sign the petition Bob, I would also be happy to sign any petition calling for devolution in a South Western county (including Cornwall). We've all been lumped together by the Government, so we should all help each other out. West Country forever!

Continuing on the unpleasant topic of race and genetics, I would like to say that if the Cornish nationalists and others wish to portray Cornwall as being culturally Celtic (which is undoubtably true in the main) then there is no problem.

The problem begins when we habitually start refering to each other as Celts and Saxons, this is opening a particularly nasty can of worms. It also leads to all sorts of questions: take two people, one is third generation Cornish but is - for the sake of arguement - of Polish extraction, the other one has only recently moved to Cornwall from Anglesea and is of the most purely Celtic lineage.

If Celticness made someone Cornish then the Welshman would have more right to call himself Cornish than the chap who'd lived there all his life and who's family had lived there for generations! A more sensible answer to the proposed regions is to have regions based around cultural and ecconomic similarities. This would allow for the creation of policies tailored to the needs of the region and not the nation as a whole as at present, it would also enable a situation of regional pride and cultural revival.

This last is a subject which I don't think has been properly explored, or when it has been explored has been in dark, Us and Them terms. I understand the point of this though; the erosion of one's identity into the bland, dumbed down miasma that is mainstream British 'culture', a terrible fate indeed.

The ´óÏó´«Ã½ does have a lot of good high-brow programming though unlike the other lot. :) What might pass off as British culture to some people in London does not equate as such with many others in the rest of the country. Indeed traditional culture in regions such as the West Country is portayed as ridiculous by many in London as it isn't considered to be fashionable and possibly to it being 'foreign' and 'alien' to them.

Don't get me wrong here, this isn't turning into an anti-London rant, it's just that they make the rules by which we all live and are at the centre of national affairs. This means they have a great deal of influence and if that is coupled with distain and ignorance for other regions and their way of life, then that will create alienation in the perifery of the country. I will try and avoid falling into the Us and Them trap myself.

One's cultural identity should not be used as a weapon though, it should be a source of strength and pride, revitalizing it would act as a rallying cry against the encroaching forces of popular 'culture' and be a form of independence from the increasing bland and monolithic norm.

We most certaily do not want some kind of Kulturekampf, a revitalized identity should be a common unifying bond to an overlooked and ignored region, something we can all idenitfy with and stick two fingers up to the crap that we are being spoon fed.

This does sound very highbrow and unlikely, but bear in mind if we are watching a load of rubbish that portrays the British as being a load of brainless, beer swilling, football hooligans, the rest of the World is too and they will say, "Told you so, we knew it was true all along". If other regions did this too they could also take pride in who they are, I mean how many amoungst you think that some bumpkin sat on a cow eating custard and saying "ooh-aar" is flattering? I don't suppose Northerners like to be portayed as being tight fisted, wippet breeding, coal miners neither. So why do we all put up with this?

We have an identity and it isn't the one that's been hung round our necks by sombody who might well have never been to the region. We know who we are even if they don't. We don't need them to tell us who we are or to poke fun of us, this helps to weaken regional identities by making people who live there feel shame and embarrasment at who they are.

Why do you think that so many kids form the West and elsewhere try to talk like East End gangsters? Because Cockney is cool and West Country is some kind of a joke. We must reclaim who we are through devolution, we are inherently different in a cultural way from other parts of the country and certainly from what passes as 'normal', we must assert our identity in a positive, inclusive and uplifting way.

This doesn't meen turning back the clock and living in a rural Arcadia, but sticking to what we already have and allowing it to strengthen and develop in it's own way. Diversity is a wonderful thing that must be allowed to florish and not stagnate and die and England is not monocultural and never has been. Please let's hear no more of this Celts versus Saxons tosh, the Celts don't end at the Tamar and what the hell is a Saxon these days?

We're all West Country people whatever our genes and whichever county we come from.
Ed, Somerset/Gwlas an Hav

Call me old-fashioned, but I love being a Brit. I lived in North East London before moving to St Ives, and I went up there on a visit to see my family at the Queens Jubilee. Going up to see her was the best thing I've ever done. I don't know about the rest of Cornwall, but I'd like to stay a Brit even just for that.
Rosa Bedingfield, St Ives

Bob - my apologies if my last post was puzzling. I was not refering to the more obvious blatant racism that is self evident but the point I was trying to make is that by looking purely at a Genetic make up of a population in terms of Celt or Saxon it precludes all the other races that have settled these Island.

The use of Genetics characterises modern populations by blood rather than culture which to me is inherrantly racist. Culture can be assimilated where as blood can not, ie anyone living in an Area who feels an affenity to that area can absorb the culture and identify with it.

Please be assured I was by no means accusing you of anything sinister just making the point that anyone may associate themselves with any of the visitors or settlers to this Island if they feel an affenity to this and it is this which shapes our culture and the sum of these cultures that make up the nation. It appears to be a peculiar British thing to divide our selves into such sub groupings and feel they are mutually exclusive.

If we were to look accross the channel we would see a different outcome to a similar situation. France is very happy to celebrate both Gaulish (eg Celtic)heros such as Vercingetorix as well as Frankish (eg Germanic) heros such as Clovis.

Also Bob I think you may have interpreted the final question of the Cornish petition incorrectly. It is not trying to force the SW assembly on the remainder of the SW but merely stating that a Cornish Assembly would fully co-operate with whatever form of develotion occurs in the region as long as it is backed up by a referrendum of what electorate want.

At the moment the only alternatives that have entered the political arena are the SW Assembly and the Wessex Regionlist both of which we would co-operate with but it must be put to the vote in a refurendum.
Pete

Im an 18 year old student, and feel that Cornwall should be its own country. Once more, I feel that we should not be part of any South West assembly but should be allowed to run our selves.
Brendan Forster, Pool

I can understand how people of other regions and races can feel jealous of the fact that we are so proud of being Cornish. The fact is, most other counties, (there are some exceptions), do not have the strong sense of unity that the Cornish feel about their ancestry. Also, in most other counties, (there are exceptions to this too), ancient hereditary languages died out long before the Cornish language stopped being used as the norm.

Many other counties have had their borders redefined quite recently and regional identities have been lost. Rutland, Somerset, and Avon are just a few of these. It therefore comes as no surprise to me to see people from other areas trying to ridicule or belittle the Cornish attitude that they are different from their neighbours.

However, from a Cornish point of view we have a valid case for self-determination and devolution without arguing the case based on historical data. Economically our case is extremely strong and, even the British and European governments recognise the fact that Cornwall is a deprived area of Europe.

Trying to convince Bob Burns, and people with his views, that we deserve to be treated differently than say Devon, is like fighting a lost cause. We will never convince him or people like him because they, like us, have only their own interests at heart. That has been Cornwall’s problem over the years.

The British Government has neglected Cornwall over the years because, in the eyes of British politicians, Cornwall is insignificant. If a countryside alliance of over half a million people descending on London can’t influence this government or an anti-war protest of close to a million, what hope has 500,000 Cornishmen got.

There is a chance now though, that Cornwall is being heard. It may not change anything but at least they (the politicians) now realise, or at least are beginning to realise, how strong the feeling is in Cornwall concerning our rights and aspirations. I checked out the website of the Lib-Dems. that Pete wrote about and found it very interesting, though not surprising. Anyone who wonders why the Cornish feel the way they do should read that report.
PhilT, Cornishman in Oman

Bob Burns hesitation in signing the Cornish Assembly online petition in response to Prescott's plans to abolish Cornwall (and Devon, etc) is understandable, but I hope he will reconsider.

If you support devolution to a new, more powerful Regional Assembly in Cornwall, as you say you do, Bob, you should show it by signing up, as a matter of principle. Officially it is past Prescott's soundings deadline now, but Cornwall needs all the support it can get.

Indeed, Bob, if you sign Cornwall's, I'll sign Devon's (as an ex-Devonian myself)! I take your point about the Six Counties issue. That has been the logical tactical response of the Cornish Constitutional Convention to the New Labour Seven Counties Bulldozer.

And there is a Seven Counties Bulldozer which has co-opted not just local Labour Party politicos in each County, including Cornwall (and my very own MP, Candy Atherton, the only Labour one in Cornwall), under Government instruction, but also Quislings like Doris Ansari from other parties.

I can understand Tories joining the Seven Counties bandwagon, but Liberal Democrats who defy their own party policy as voted upon in Cornwall deserve to have their membership suspended. This has got to the point where Graham Watson, Lib Dem MEP formerly for Somerset but now for the Seven Counties, has argued that if Cornwall insists on its claim of right to greater self-government within the UK, then we should be punished.

He proposes an elected Six Counties Regional Assembly being set up east of the Tamar, with the devolved powers proposed by the Government, and that Cornwall should continue to be administered directly by Westminster. I presume he feels that Cornish rebels deserve to be punished by continued direct misrule from London even after his Six Counties get devolution. This, regrettably, is not a new attitude amongst exiled Scots seeking power in the South.

Over the centuries most such expatriates learnt the behaviour from their English masters (much to the regret of their former compatriates north of the border, who were thus wont to sing "We were bought and sold for English gold, such a parcel of rogues in a nation!")

If Mr Watson gets selected as one of the Euro candidates for the Lib Dems in the South West(as seems likely, despite his now being thirteenth in my STV ballot paper) and then re-elected at the next European elections, I plan to organise protests during any visit of his west of the Tamar.

I would welcome hearing from any other Lib Dems visiting this site who feel the same way, and will be contacting my party branch and Local Party (including Robin Teverson, the former MEP for Cornwall and Plymouth) to pursue the matter.
Adrian Watts , Flushing

Ed - Thanks for your signature. By the way, I do not claim credit for starting the petition. Paul Turner did that. The reason for the comparatively small number of signatures is that the petition has only been running for a few days. Paul has decided to keep it running to build up the number of signatures. It will then be useful ammunition in the future.

I am a little puzzled by Pete's reply to my last but one post, as I agree with him 100% that racism has no part to play in this debate. The point I was trying to make was that not only is the assertion (made by a number of Cornish extremists, and their followers, on this board), that there is a distinct racial boundary at the Tamar, a racist one but is also factually incorrect. Why do we have people coming to this board declaring themselves to be Celts or Saxons? It is as if they are declaring their allegiances at the start of a battle, and thus hankering after a fight. Any relevant scientific data (including genetic) is purely statistical, so even if someone has a DNA test, the result is not going to tell him/her whether he/she is a Saxon or a Celt. Only by looking at overall populations can one determine trends, and the results are certainly no excuse for racial hatred or separatism. The data, which I have presented here, is merely intended to demonstrate how ludicrous some of the more extreme assertions, that have been made here, really are. They do not demonstrate patriotism, only ignorance.
Bob Burns, ex-Plymouthian

I signed your petition Bob, shame about the lack of votes. I would've signed the Cornish one too, but I got the impression that it was aimed at Cornish people so I let it be. I think both petitions would do well from more publicity as I think they appear to be a little hard to come across at the moment. Do you have to be a member of a pressure group to sign the Government one? It looked like that judging by the way it was worded.
Ed, Gwlas an Hav/Somerset

I am British, Anglo Saxon, English, European a Human being, not necessarily in that order, but who cares they are all just man made labels that we attach to ourselves. So why is it so important to the Cornish?. Cornwall is not a Country like Scotland or Wales, rather it's just one of Englands Counties like Devon and Somerset. The population is now quite diverse in it's origins with many people from all parts of England (and the world) making it their home. The Cornish are now probably in the minority in Corwall. In my view the sooner this whole racial debate is ended the better. Why can't they accept the fact that Cornwall will always be governed as part of England and get on with the rest of their lives.
Bob, Truro

Piran is the latest in a long line of Cornishmen who have been led to believe that the terms Celtic and English are mutually exclusive. Piran may therefore be surprised to learn that there are far more English people (excluding Cornish people for the time being) who are of Celtic descent than there are Scots, Irish, Manx, Welsh, Cornish and Bretons put together. In fact genetics has shown that the inhabitants of the whole of the South of England and the Welsh Marcher Counties, are predominantly Celtic by ancestry. In fact it is not until one crosses into the North East (historically known as the Danelaw) that one finds a population, which is predominantly Teutonic in origin, i.e. Anglo-Saxon or Danish Viking.

So how has this common Cornish misconception come about? The Cornish have quite rightly criticised the English education system, which includes a history syllabus teaching the inaccurate doctrine of an almost exclusively Anglo-Saxon England. But instead of replacing it with an accurate version of history, some of the more extreme Cornish have substituted an equally fallacious history syllabus, which teaches Celtic (Cornish) and English mutual exclusivity. If the former doctrine is to be condemned, then so also is the latter. One should not counter lies with other lies.

If we examine Piran's other statements, firstly he mentions the unique history of Cornwall. Well I have to tell him that the word 'unique' is not exclusive to Cornwall, as every county has a unique history. Cornwall is not the only area in England with its own language. Devon and the adjoining counties had a language (akin to Cornish), known as West Country Brythonic (or Old Devonian), which died out during the middle ages. Cumbria also had its own Brythonic language, and Welsh was almost certainly spoken in South West Herefordshire, judging by the density of Welsh place names in the area. The St. Piran Flag was hardly 'ready made' as it is a relatively recent design.

As regular visitors to this board will know, I am a keen advocate of a separate Cornish Assembly, just as I would like to see a Devon Assembly, but I am also a stickler for being opposed to the misrepresentation of history. While on the subject of the Cornish Assembly, I was about to sign the petition referenced in a previous post, until I noticed the third paragraph: "I support a referendum in the six counties of the south west on the question of a SW assembly, to run parallel with, and to work jointly with a Cornish Assembly where appropriate." Isn't this hypocracy? It seems to me to imply that although an unwieldy and unrepresentative mega South West Region is not good enough for the Cornish, it is apparently good enough for everyone else. The Cornish are the first to accuse the 'English' of trying to dictate what is best for them, but then have the audacity to try to do the same thing to their neighbours. Double standards methinks, or could it be that if Devon (or any of the other South West counties) had its own assembly, the Cornish would feel that they had lost their exclusivity?
Bob Burns, ex-Plymouthian

Piran - It is one thing to want to keep hold of identity but this does not have to be at the expense of attacking another. What of all the Cornish who want to identify themselves with both Cornish and English identities? Should they be forced to choose? where as I am very proud of my Cornish identity and history - England also has a rich History and identity. Ignorance and apathy has been far more dextrimental to our cultural heratige than any percived cultural imperalism. May be it's time to stop treating England as a cover-all political scape-goat.

Bob I do not believe that one needs to be of a certain genetic make up in order to identify temselves to a particular region and thinking of a Cornish assembly as Celts on one side and Saxons on the other misses the point and is inherrantly racist. It takes into no account the number of different tribes who have spent the last 40,000 years immegrating to and emmegrating from these Islands as well as the many who would not consider themselves of Celtic or Saxon stock but do consider themselves Cornish, English, British, Euopean, etc, etc. With the intertwining of so many of these we coiuld probably all claim some link to which ever particlaur tribe we wanted.

The important thing to do is celebrate our culture differences while deciding the way forward that will best govern all the people of Corwall and the SW region.
Pete

If Scotland and wales can be recognised as seperate states within Britain, then why not Cornwall. History dictates that we are Celts, not Anglo-saxons. It is our birth right that we should be classed as Cornish and not English. Full independance will not work as we are to small and our economy will be to weak, but independance within the UK is possible. We have a unique history, our own language and ready made flag and national anthem ( Tralawney ). People of Cornwall, lets act now before we lose our culture forever and just become English drones.
Piran

I believe that we should have our own assembly: this way we can better administer our own distinct region, culture, language, and economy. However the precise "shape" of this must be in the best interests of the cornish people, and to act as a boost to the economy and retaining in full all the close links with the rest of UK, while being stragetically designed to give cornwall it's own decision making capacity. A referendum stating two options: that of a south-west assembly, or alternatively a cornish-specific assembly, would allow cornish people to democratically decide thier political fate.
B, London

James Frankcom's historical survey does seem to be somewhat confused. There is no evidence whatsoever for his 'Cornii' tribe. Maybe he is getting confused with the Cornovii, a confederation of tribes which occupied the modern counties of Cheshire and Shropshire but had no known connection with Cornwall. Cornwall was definitely an integral part of the Kingdom of Dumnonia, which was also a confederation of British tribes, and consisted of Cerniw (modern Cornwall), Dyfneint (modern Devon) and Glastenig (most of modern Somerset). The name Cornwall was not derived from a tribal name, but from Corn-wealas, or Foreigners of the Horn (wealas is Anglo-Saxon for foreigner and Corn refers to the Horn of Britain).

James has also confused the events of AD 710. The King of Dumnonia who fought with Ine (King of the West Saxons) was not Owain (of whom there is no record), but the well documented Gerren (or Geraint). It is not even recorded which side won this battle, although there are unsubstantiated accounts that Gerren was victorious. Certainly the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle merely records that "Ina fought with Grant (presumably Gerren), King of the Welsh", but does not name the victor, which it would surely have done if Ina had been victorious. On the other hand, Gerren does seem to have disappeared from history at this time. There is no historical evidence that Cornwall had its own king at this time, and the only Conan whose name appears as a king in this area was Conan Meriadoc who reputedly lived in the 4th Century AD.

While none of the above proves that Cornwall was a separate country in those times, there is certainly justification for Cornwall being a separate region now, due to its current economic state (see Ed's post). However, there is no historical or economic justification for lumping the other South West Counties into a single region and calling it Wessex. As can be seen from Ed's figures, the other counties of the South West Penninsula (especially Devon) are not that far behind Cornwall in the poverty stakes. The name 'Wessex' for the remainder of the South West would imply a distinct Celt/Saxon border at the Tamar. There is no historical evidence for this, and modern genetic surveys have shown this not to be the case. The modern population of the whole of the South West Peninsula is predominantly Celtic. In fact, James should perhaps re-examine his own description of himself as a Saxon if he is from London, as even in the South East the modern population has been shown to! be at least 50% Celtic. If James wishes to find out what views Devonians have on Devolution, I would suggest that he visits the equivalent ´óÏó´«Ã½ Devon board. He may get quite a shock.
Bob Burns, ex-Plymouthian

Ed, There is a very well compiled report by the Cornish Liberal democrates that may be of intrest to you, it details many of the problems with funding to the region. ww.matthewtaylor.info/hardlabour.doc

Also some of the statistics on the Cornwall County Council web site are very enlightning.

Mark, The Cornii (Cornovii) tribe were based in Shropshire. It is more likely Corn derives from the latin meaning horn shaped. However some think it possible that the Cornovii could have been relocated to the area to defend against invading Scotti from Ireland. Also Devon is derived from the Cornish Dewnas meaning Dark Valleys rather than an actual corruption of the word Dumonia.
Pete
The ´óÏó´«Ã½ are not responsible for the content of external websites

I want to challenge a few claims being made.

In response to Merddyn and his doubts that Kernow / Cornwall was ever a seperate country I can say this. Before the English there was a tribe in "cornwall" called the Cornii who I suppose were probably very closely culturally connected with their neighbours the Dumnonii.

The only records for this time are Arthurian legend copied and written by people like Gildas who refer quite clearly to the Cornish having different rulers to the neighbouring Dumnonians. The Welsh Annals also list geneaologies of kings of Dumnonia and Cornwall in parallel.

Indeed the English name "cornwall" means 'Cornish Welsh'...and the 'Cornish' part came from the celtic 'Cornii' tribe. The name Devon comes from a corruption of the Celtic name for Dumnonia..so Devon and Cornwall were seperate celtic tribal entities.

Another point worth noting is that prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasions in the 5th/6th Centuries Prydein or Britannia or Britain was a High Kingdom - a confederation of states. The kings of which, somehow, chose a High King (much like in Ireland). These states (although not necessarily nation-states) had their own differing systems of governance.

Some operated on imposed Roman models, particularly in the south-east (but retained their ruling clan dynasties; note the name of the King of Kent in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles) while others continued to govern themselves as vasal states to the Roman Empire and largely kept archaic British modes of government (like in the Iceni territories until dissolusion and especially in Dumnonia, some in Cambria and probably in the north-east).

These semi-independent British kingdoms were best equipped to defend themselves from new enemies. Historically when the West Saxons crushed the British resistance around Salisbury plain and came up against Dumnonia the opposition held out for several generations before that kingdom began to unravel.

It was 710AD when Isca/Exeter fell to the West Saxons and refugees from massacres were driven into Kernow which then was demonstrably considered to be a seperate entity to Dumnonia and had its own king - I believe a King Conan (the Dumnonian King Owain died in the battle).

For another 200 years Kernow retained its independence until 925AD when its king accepted English domination..and was quoted as saying "sorrow comes from a world upturned".

I think Kernow should have its own Assembly with local powers equivalent to the neighbouring South-Western region..which I think would most sensibly be called Wessex.

Kernow should have its own distinct government because of its historical fate and the strong local celtic identity which has long been extinguished in the South West.
James Frankcom, a Saxon, Caer Londein

I looked up some statistics on Cornwall and some comparative data and it doesn't make nice reading (the Western Counties are generally poor, but Cornwall is by far the poorest).

Based upon their ecconomic situation the Cornish could well claim their own assembly as a means of sorting out their own problems. If this comes about though, are they still likely to be ignored by the UK Parliament due to the periferal position of Cornwall and its relative size and population to other UK nations and regions?

As has been stated elsewhere size is not a barrier to self determination, but what influence does Lichtenstein, Andora or Monaco have? These countries all do nicely as rich independent states who aren't part of a larger country, but Cornwall would still be a region within the UK after devolution and subject to UK policies not a free country like the above.

I'm not advocating complete seperation from the UK as the ecconomic implications might not be favourable, in other words Cornwall should get rich before it tries that sort of thing.

What must not be allowed to happen is Cornwall becoming sidelined and the Government washing their hands of the problems that Cornwall has. Cornwall should have a strong voice in Parliament and if that means co-operating with a neighbouring region (co-operating not amalgamating) to make itself heard then that would be mutually beneficial.

As I just said this wouldn't mean amalgamation into a region with other counties, although the Four County Assembly idea would be far more practical than the Seven County Monster, but obviously still not popular with our Cornish friends over the Tamar.

Here are the statistics, I didn't include the UAs as that would have made things excessively complicated.

Area: Cornwall, 1376 sq mi; Devon, 2591 sq mi; Dorset, 1025 sq mi; Somerset 1332 sq mi.

Population (2001): Cornwall 501,267; Devon 1,074,919; Dorset 692,726; Somerset 498,700.

Average Gross Weekly Earnings (2001): Cornwall £334.2; Devon £361.8; Dorset £383.8; Somerset £ 386.6; South West £408.6; SE (excl. London) £473; England £451.5; GB £444.3 %

Below GB Average: Cornwall 24.7%; Devon 18.5%; Dorset 13.6%; Somerset 13% % Below SE (excl. London)

Average: Cornwall 29.3%; Devon 23.5%; Dorset 18.9%; Somerset 18.3%

As can be seen Cornwall is a poor county (as if you needed me to tell you that!) and the call for a devolved assembly to deal with the ecconomic problems of Cornwall would be perfectly reasonable, but you must open the Government's eyes and make them listen or you'll get nowhere.
Ed, Somerset/Gwlas an Hav

Hi Ed, Glad to see that some of the SW is getting more intrested in their celtic past. It does raise the question to me who exactly do they think were here before the later settlements.

Unfortunately any discussion into this territory distracts from the true hardships Cornwall and other areas suffer in a Centralised government. I think this forum should concentrate on the best way to govern Cornwall rather than what makes up the Cornish identity.

That is a very subjective question along the same lines as a very intresting discussion I discovered on the Somerset board regards what makes up Somerset. In trying to describe my identity I often use the fact that did the people of north Somerset believe they were true Avonians or care when the unitary athorities changed yet again.

If you are intrested in the question of 'Celticity' I would seriously advise staying away from internet resources where anything may be published without checks on authenticity.

My personal favourite would to be to read some of Barry Cunliffe's works which is very informative and well presented (in terms of archilogocal facts).

Anyway to answer your question (unfortunately not a fluent cornish speaker). The second quote you give is Mernans an Goff which was the 1997 poetry winner of the Gorseth Kernow and relates to the 1497 uprising in which Lord Audley of Somerset took effective military leadership of.

Struggling to translate the first - Something about Matthew Taylor MP for Truro & ST Austall aiming to thank Cornwall, Devon & Somerset bit about todays celts - sorry probably beed a fleunt speaker for that one. ANyway lets hope the SW counties can make our way forward in devolution without trying to use each other for personal gain .
Pete , Walthamstow

Hello, Does anyone no the translation of the below script? One is a clip which I don't know what the reference to is and the other is part of a poem about an Gof. They both mention Gwlas an Hav and I was wondering what they said about it.

"Dy Mergher 19/12/01: Towlow dhe gesya Awtoritys Yeghes Dewnans ha Kernow yw yn-dann omsettyans hedhyw gans esel an senedh Truru ha Sen Ostell, Matthew Taylor. Ev a leveris aga bos sham hag a gemmer an nerth ervira dhiworth an wodhevysi. An tybyans yw rann a bolisi Breten Veurek neb a wra gweles Dorset yn unn gesya gans Gwlas an Hav ynwedh. Byttegyns, dell grys Konsel Yeghes Kemmyniethek Kernow, an dasfurvyans a wra dhe'n gwasonieth moy akontadow."

"A-bell dhe'n Yst y kerthsons · der oll Gwlas an Haf a-hes erna hedhas an cothmens · dhe'n ger wella Wells gylwys. Y's metyas an cytysans · gans gwres ha dynargh densys. Y teth dhe'n baner dyblans · Audley baron enorys." Thanks.
Ed, Somerset/Gwlas an Hav

Hi, me again. I've got a bit interested in the Celtic history of the region, so I've looked up a few things that look interesting. One gives a history and a map of the Celtic kingdom of Dumnonia, the two Somerset sites list the kings of Dumnonia and the history of the Dumnonian sub-kingdom of Glastening in the post Roman years. There is also a site that gives some info on the kings of of Glastening.
http://homepages.tesco.net/~plk33/plk33/
History/FeaturesBritain/BritishMapAD400.htm http://www.britannia.com/history/ebk/articles/
glasteningdynasty.html http://www.britannia.com/history/somerset/somhist4.html http://www.britannia.com/history/somerset/ Don't know if that helps the nationalism debate, but maybe it'll add some clarity to the historical debate.
Ed, Somerset/Glastening
The ´óÏó´«Ã½ are not responsible for the content of external websites

Bob, thank you. Graham Watson MEP should listen to Prescott's real intentions. Watson claims to be unaware of any proposal to abolish Cornwall. Abolition of the Counties has always been their clear real intention once they set up their Seven Counties Region (if we ever let them).

All you had to do to grasp that was to read the White Paper. Graham Watson has even gone so far as to suggest that a Six Counties Region east of Cornwall might be set up, if Cornish Liberal Democrats and others insist on Cornwall's rights, leaving Cornwall to be governed directly from London without devolution.

I've suggested to Graham that his tongue must be in his cheek on that idea ... but maybe it's the thing at the end of his leg in his mouth, which is unusual for such a normally very astute politician.

But then, if you live in Somerset and spend most of your time in Brussels and Strasbourg, how can you be expected to understand Cornwall, let alone represent its people?

The previous European Election arrangements were better for Cornwall than the new list system. After all, it was thanks in large part to Robin Teverson, former Lib Dem MEP for Cornwall and West Plymouth, that Cornwall gained Objective One status under the EU regional policy.
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth

I have always given the Government the benefit of the doubt, concerning whether counties would be retained under a regional assembly, but not any more.

On a local television news broadcast today, I saw John 'Two Jags' Prescott being interviewed about devolution. He quite clearly stated that when people voted for a Regional Assembly, the counties would be abolished, because that is what people wanted.

So he claims to know what we want better than we do. Its time we gave him a rude awakening. Get those petitions signed. For any Devonians visiting this board, there is a petition especially for you at:- http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Devon/petition.html
Don't delay, as the deadline is 3rd March.
Bob Burns, Barton-upon-Humber
The ´óÏó´«Ã½ are not responsible for the content of external websites

The size of Cornwall should have no bearing on whether it should be independent. There are many countries around the world with smaller populations and territories, but are still independent to a great extent. Leitchenstein, Luxembourg, San Marino, Andorra, Isle of Man. This is not me saying I believe in full independence. I would wish my views on this matter to be my own, and private.
Stuart Pennlorwydh, Lyskerrys

Sam Hines in New York, you have your facts wrong. And only the ´óÏó´«Ã½ in its introduction to this webpage and a tiny minority of people posting here are interested in independence from the UK.

Your initial observations may be fair comment, Mr Hines, but you're way out of line. I shall only correct your factual mistakes (the rest of your abusive comments being unworthy of response).

First, Cornwall has not been part of the UK for 1200 years. The United Kindom of Great Britain (and since 1921 Northern Ireland) only came into existence in 1707 with the Act of Union between England and Scotland. That's only 70 years longer than the United States of America has existed.

Cornwall is, in fact, much older as a sovereign territory than the Kingdom of England, which was only invented centuries after the initial Saxon invasions, and was only effectively united by the Normans in 1066. The Crown of England has always recognised the sovereignty of Cornwall, and the Duke takes precedence over the Queen when they are both in Cornwall.

What is being proposed by the UK Government is administrative devolution to new directly elected regional assemblies in England, similar to those established since 1997 in Scotland and Wales. Cornwall has a claim of right, similar to that of Scotland, to its own assembly.

You clearly misunderstand the UK and Cornwall, despite having lived here, Mr Hines. It shouldn't be too difficult for you to grasp the idea of devolution. After all, you live in a country with a federal constitution. New York State operates quite happily with 50 or so others, each with far greater powers of decisionmaking than is being proposed in Cornwall, without the United States government "cutting off trade and relations."

We are not like some of your militia in Montana, attacking your whole federal system. We do not want separation from the UK. Those who want full independence for Cornwall are a tiny and politically irrelevant minority. Majority opinion in Cornwall supports devolution to a new, more powerful directly elected Assembly to replace the present very weak and ineffective County Council.

Of course, if the UK Government ignores the settled will of the people of Cornwall, they may drive us into mass non-violent civil disobedience. But no one I know of here would condone Montana Militia style armed insurrection.
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth