| Do
you want a fully independent Cornwall? |
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| Protesters
against the south west assembly |
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How
should our county be run? Have
your say on self-government, a south west assembly, Westminster
and the EU.
How can we preserve our unique culture and move forward in the 21st
Century?
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Do
you support the aims of Mebyon Kernow for a legislative Cornish
Assembly for self-government within the UK?
Or
do you think greater independence could put off investment from
the rest of the UK?
Would
we be better off as part of a south west assembly or would we
end up being governed by Bristol and Exeter?
Do
you feel Cornish, British or both?
*latest mail from the top
Click
here to have your say now.
Tread gently people, the English are having a bit of a time
of it at the moment. What with the cricket team being God
awful, Wembley's twin towers being pulled down and the country
being "broken up" into regions, English sensitivities are
a bit fraught. Go gently. It's a tough time for them.
Peder Treneweth, Glasgow |
NO. We belong to the British Isles and have done for hundreds
of years, we are not a seperate country, Wales, and Scotland
are, but they are still part of the British Isles, Cornwall
is a County, let us stay that way. If we became seperate,
we would be in a worse state than we are in now!
Hilary Pitt, Stratton |
John - don't worry about DH Lawrence, whose ideas were basically
fascist. How such a pretentious ranter got puffed up as a
major thinker quite baffles me.
It's sadly true that I have heard people in positions of power
in Cornwall voice much the same sentiments, but it's up to
us to insist on mutual respect and good manners. Bob, PhilT,
Fooboo - agree with yu all in general, except that I don't
think that Bob's analysis of the housing and education questions
goes deep enough. The destruction of the public housing sector
has exacerbated a universal problem, i.e. conflict of interest
over use of land.
It's not confined to rural areas - ask the Venetians! And
I would submit that we need to question the priorites of an
educational system that prepares the crucial 16-25 age group
mainly as export material, rather than equipping them as versatile
citizens able to work on their own initiative to maintain
themselves and regenerate their communities. This is one reason
why I should like our future Ministry of Education to adapt
the International Baccalaureate to the Cornish context.
Tim, Caerdydd |
Fooboo (Sheffield) is not quite correct when he states that
Cornish independence is only the concern of the Cornish. If
only it were that simple. He asserts that he would support
claims for independence from any region, which at one time
had its own language and was a country in its own right.
Therefore if (hypothetically) a group from the Midlands presented
a case for an independent Mercia (which was once a separate
nation with its own tongue), then one would expect that Fooboo
would support their case. However, what if the people of the
North East wanted an independent Northumbria with the original
borders? What would Fooboo's response be, considering that
Northumbria originally stretched from the Humber to the Firth
of Forth? Would he not have to think twice and consider what
the Scots might have to say about the matter?
In another hypothetical case, what would Fooboo's response
be to a request for support from a group claiming that their
region was an independent nation with its own Brythonic Celtic
language? The name of that nation? Dumnonia. Would his support
be readily forthcoming? After all, it meets his criteria of
having been a separate country with its own language, so what
is the problem? The problem is that Dumnonia included Cornwall.
I suspect that his offer of support might evaporate at this
point. However, Fooboo should not worry, as it is unlikely
to happen. The main problem, which would arise from Cornish
independence, is what would become of the Duchy, with its
large land holding outside Cornwall. This problem would particularly
affect Devon (with over 50% of the Duchy lands, far more than
Cornwall), and the fact that the Duchy of Cornwall has jurisdiction
over the Devon foreshore and riverbeds (as well as those of
Cornwall). So yes, the Cornish would be 'setting up house
in the Devonians' living room', as Fooboo puts it.
Would the Duke be prepared to give up these rights, together
with the income that it brings him? Cornish Regionalism (as
opposed to Cornish Nationalism) would present fewer problems,
as there would then be no disputes over national territory.
As a Devonian, I could give my full support to a Cornish Region,
as I would expect Fooboo to give his full support to a Devon
Region. Incidentally Phil T, I suspect that Fooboo is Cornish,
from his reference to hogs pudding (also a regional dish of
Devon).
Bob Burns, Barton-upon-Humber |
Michael Ferguson, the one thing Cornwall will never do is
go cap in hand to England. Your statement epitomises why there
is so much animosity and controversy between Cornwall and
England, and likewise between England and Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland.
The statement should have read Britain not England. Our parliament
is a British Parliament not an English Parliament. This is
what causes the initial problem, recognition that there are
other parts of Britain outside of England. As for your statement
about tourism leaving Cornwall, what evidence is there of
that? At the moment tourism is on the increase, especially
now that a lot of people are afraid to travel overseas due
to terrorism.
We do have other means of income which could be further exploited
if managed correctly. For instance, farming, forestry, horticulture
and China Clay mining. We use to have fishing and I think
that could be revived if managed properly. We could exploit
our water supply system. At the moment large quantities of
water collected in Cornwall are utilised on the eastern side
of the Tamar. We could charge for this. We produce wind-powered
electricity. We could develop this source of income.
Obviously tourism is the biggest source of income, and if
we had control over our own taxation then favourable tax benefits
could be applied to encourage tourism. Also, if we had control
over our own tax system, and were considered independent,
other types of industry could be encouraged! such as offshore
banking.
I realise some of these things are probably just a pipe-dream
at the moment but I've mentioned them to show that Cornwall
need not necessarily be reliant on a bigger, less sympathetic,
entity. Small communities under UK rule are already successful,
Gibraltar, the Isle of Man, the Channel Isles, Bermuda are
just a few. None of these places receive any finances from
the UK and all are self governing, self financing communities.
Most rely to some extent on tourism for their revenue. Why
should Cornwall be any different? Fooboo, Sheffield, your
posting is the most sensible piece of writing that I have
seen written on this site by someone who does not come from
Cornwall (at least I assume that you don't).
If everyone thought like you then we could resolve this issue
a great deal quicker. Unfortunately most people outside of
Cornwall think like Michael Ferguson, Clark Kent of the wild,
wild, west, JB, and Steve Garrett of Lancs. To them it is
just a joke and they don't understand the strength of feeling
in Cornwall concerning this issue. It is not a joke and one
day, possibly soon, we will achieve our goals, at least partially,
if not totally.
Phil T, Cornishman in Oman |
Is the cornish moving out of Cornwall tollerated - when the
moving in of true English is not. Double standards me thinks!!
Michael, kent |
Cornish Nationalism, not sure - can it work??
Easy answer: NO. Therfore I think complete devolution is neccesary
- Give them their borders, language and even their homes back.
Once they realise they need to be part of England for their
own survival - we will see them crawling from the tin mines
cap in hand. Tourism is about to leave your shores - have
you any other form of generating funds for the Cornish economy
or would you rather me keep my second home??? GOOD LUCK MICHAEL
FERGUSON (Tim's Friend)
Michael Ferguson
|
I know questions of nationalism and politics stir up emotions
etc. and I'm not going to try and say these emotions are invalid
but as I see it the question of promoting Cornwall and Cornish
independence are really the concern of the Cornish.
They need to talk it through see what is best for them and
make a choice. I don't see why there needs to be such strong
objection from those outside of Cornwall (or the Cornish identity,
you don't need to be in Cornwall to feel Cornish) of any nationality.
Firstly, promoting Cornwall and improving the economy are
good ideas that need not affect England or Britain in any
adverse way. It may even draw new tourism and business interest
for the UK as a whole.
Secondly, independence is a seperate issue and there are degrees
of independence from Heritage and road signs all the way to
a seperate parliament and economy etc. But none of this is
intended as an insult or rejection of England or the English.
It isn't a hostile act. There are extremists on both sides
of the argment and people with strong feeling that as I said
I don't intend to dismiss with this statement, but there is
no need for hot blood and terse remarks. It isn't overly productive
and really I don't see why people need to put down the Cornish
if they choose this path. If it doesn't affect you where you
live then what has it got to do with you. Why the anger.
If Yorkshire or Berkshire or Lancashire and so on had in their
history their own language and status as a country then fine
ask for it back and I'll support you, if they haven't then
don't bother. Cornwall did have both and wants them back what's
the problem? I'm glad England has a rich history and I'm glad
that Wales has their own vein in British history as a whole
and that Scotland have done there own thing throughout history
and Cornwall has likewise. It's all very interesting and has
lead to the British as we are.
Being British just mean you come from one of the countries
within the British Isles so I have no problem with the term.
Being English mean you identify with the history and roots
and culture of England I have no problem with that. Being
Cornish means you identify with the history roots and culture
of Cornwall I have no problem with that, why do people have
a problem with this? Is it jealousy? do they wish their region
had a reason to differentiate themselves?
If so we can stop the arguing now because wherever you live
in Britain you have a unique history in that area and can
be proud of it without offending others. Throw your cheese
down a hill if thats what you do, have your local customs,
speak with your local slang and accent, eat local delicacies
enjoy being part of the rich tapestry that is British culture
we can all celebrate this without stopping others from celebrating
theirs.
If Cornish independence meant that someone was going to set
up house in your living room and eat from your fridge I can
see why you'd be upset but it doesn't. Whether Cornwall is
independant or not it will need investment and promotion to
solve economic problems. Whether Cornwall is independant or
not people will feel emotional attachment to the region and
the local traditions will be upheld and the local delicacies
will be eaten (I'm never giving up hogs pudding even if I
end up having to make my own in my shed).
Whether Cornwall is independant or not there will be people
with extreme views and people who don't express their feelings
well so resort to name calling etc. but as mature Britons
everywhere are capable of discussion without offense no-one
needs to dig at each others heritage. Whether Cornwall is
independant or not England isn't going to fall into a black
hole or be invaded by a newly formed Cornish Militia (or at
least I haven't heard of any plans for this...). Calm down,
have a cup of tea or something, look on the web for local
cultural groups, join them, have fun.
Fooboo, Sheffield |
|
John (Truro) seems to have got his wires badly crossed,
confusing D H Lawrence (writer of "Sons and Lovers", "Lady
Chatterley's Lover" etc.) with T E Lawrence (Lawrence of
Arabia).
It
was indeed D H Lawrence who wrote the nasty words about
the Cornish. It appears that he didn't like the Cornish,
and the Cornish didn't like him and with good reason.
During
the First World War, D H Lawrence was suspected of signalling
to German submarines from the Cornish coast, which led to
his expulsion from Cornwall together with his wife (of German
extraction).
John should not therefore spend too much time worrying about
what D H Lawrence thought of the Cornish. As for outsiders
flooding in and buying up property, this is not solely a
Cornish problem. The same thing is happening in Devon, Wales,
Cumbria and Scotland.
I
don't think it is the outsiders who are driving out the
youngsters, as much as the young people having to go elsewhere
to find the best jobs. I was a pupil at a Boys' Grammar
School in Plymouth, which took boys from Plymouth, South
West Devon and South East Cornwall. According to the Old
Boys web site, very few are still living and working in
Cornwall or Devon (and many are no longer in Britain).
The
young people are looking for the best jobs, which usually
necessitates moving away, whereas the outsiders are often
retired people looking for retirement homes in Cornwall,
Devon etc. House priced are therefore being forced up by
the demand from these outsiders. How can this problem be
overcome without keeping the outsiders out?
Despite the erroneous name of this discussion board, the
main question is one of Devolution or Regional Government
and what constitutes a region.
I think that John (of Truro) will find that there is almost
complete agreement here (and on the equivalent 大象传媒 Devon
board), that the Government's definition of a seven county
"South West Region" is totally unacceptable. However, he
will have to make up his own mind on that.
Bob Burns, Barton-upon-Humber
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In reply to John, Truro, I think DH Lawrence's opinions
are a little out of date. At least I hope so, after all,
they were written in 1916.
As to which way you vote first of all consider whether you
are happy with the current situation. 1) Are you happy with
having decisions being made for you by people who have no
concept of what life in the country is really like? 2) Do
you mind that your county pays nearly 2 billion pounds to
Central Government but receives more than 350 million pounds
less back to re-invest? (to put this in proportion, Cornwall
County Council received just 3.3 million gross, 1.8 million
net, this year from the Government to finance Economic Development
& Tourism compared to 1.9 million net last year. And this
is in an area designated as Objective One by Europe!!!).
3) Are you happy that Cornwall has amongst the highest unemployment
and the lowest wages in Europe, and amongst the highest
house prices in the UK? 4) Are you happy with the way the
British Government (any British Government) has handled
the mining situation, the fishing situation, the foot and
mouth situation, and the farming situation? 5) Do you think
that it is a good thing that our children have to move away
so that they can find decent jobs and living conditions?
6)
Do you think that local politicians could have handled any
of these problems any better? If your answer to the last
one is either yes, or you don't know, or maybe, then surely
you should at least give the local people the opportunity
to try.
Let's
face it, it can't get that much worse, can it? Remember
also that in DH Lawrence's time there was probably a higher
percentage of Cornish people in Cornwall than there is now.
I'd guess that there are at least 40-45% non-Cornish people
living in Cornwall now and they'd have to agree to self-determination
the same as us.
So
the terms of the agreement would have to benefit them as
well, otherwise they won't agree to it. Anyway, all of this
may just be a pipe-dream. I for one, don't believe this
government, or any foreseeable British Government, would
give Cornwall, or any other county, enough powers to be
able to totally run their own affairs. I think it needs
a lot more work and lobbying before anything substantial
is likely to happen.
From
reading other peoples postings that are more aware of the
situation than me, I am beginning to believe that this current
offer is just a carrot and not a genuine attempt by the
Government to give us more power.
It's
another delaying tactic to push the matter further into
an old closet in the hope that people will forget about
it. Unfortunately for Mr Blair and friends, they do not
appreciate the extent which people in Cornwall feel that
they are entitled to self-determination. Maybe we will have
to do what Adrian says and blockade the bridges before anyone
listens seriously to our demands.
PhilT,
Cornishman in Oman
|
|
DH Lawrence, a hero and a much respected Englishman, loved
Cornwall and visited the county in the early part of the
twentieth century. His attitude to the people of Cornwall
however was a very different matter. D.H Lawrence on the
Cornish:
鈥
...they are like insects gone cold, living only for money,
for dirt. They are foul in this. They all ought to die.
Not that I鈥檝e seen very much of them... but going out, in
the motor and so on, one sees and feels and knows what they
are like...鈥 (Feb1st1916)
鈥淭he
only thing to do is to use them strictly as servants, inferiors:
for they have the souls of slaves... I only wish you could
exterminate all the natives and we could possess the land...
There are many people like insects who await extermination.鈥
(Feb 24th 1916)
Has
this attitude changed amongst the English? Can we not see
parallels today with the people from the South East flooding
into the county in their thousands? They are buying up property
so that they can enjoy the natural amenities of the county
on the odd occasion when the weather's good.
Are
they not successfully driving out the young Cornish people
in the true spirit of Lawrence of Arabia? I would like to
hear what each side of the Cornish nationalism argument
has to say about this! I personally am a floating voter
and a Cornishman. Who do I vote for?
John,
Truro
|
I agree with Bob and Adrian. These three clauses would be
acceptable to any fair-minded person. Could we publicize them,
or at least some agreed version of them, to the wider community?
If we managed to build up enough momentum, then HMG would
have to pay attention.
Tim,
Caerdydd |
I agree, Bob! The Government used its majority pushed through
its Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Bill at Second Reading
in the Commons on Tuesday night, despite the objections of
Cornish and many other MPs. The Bill says in clause two that
there will simply be ONE question in any regional devolution
referendum (which the Minister will be empowered to call at
any time once the Bill becomes law).
That single question is defined thus in the Bill: "Should
there be an elected assembly for the (insert name of region)
region?" Voters will be asked to vote yes or no. The Bill
provides in the same clause that the question on the ballot
paper must be preceded by the following statement: "You can
help to decide whether there should be an elected assembly
in the [insert name of region] region. An assembly would be
responsible for a range of activities that are currently carried
out mainly by central government bodies, including regional
economic development.
Where it is proposed to establish an elected regional assembly,
it is also intended that local government should be reorganised
into a single tier in those parts of the region that currently
have both county and district councils. There would be no
such reorganisation of other local authorities in the region."
I agree with you Bob, that if the Government is unwise enough
to press ahead with a referendum for a Seven Counties South
West Region, following a local government review that also
proposes to abolish Cornwall, Devon and each of the other
ancient county entities east of the Exe, it will almost certainly
be defeated.
I have been a passionate supporter of and active campaigner
for political devolution throughout Britain all my life. But
I would be forced to vote against a South West Region Assembly,
which would be worse for Cornwall than being continued to
be misgoverned from London. I am sure that a majority of voters
will also vote no in Cornwall. I will campaign for a no vote
in Devon too, and the other counties. But hopefully the Ministers
will instead respond to Cornwall's case for being accepted
as a Region in its own right. Then we can have a nice simple
local government review that proposes abolition of the County
Council and its replacement with a more powerful elected Cornwall
Regional Assembly. And the same question will then apply on
the ballot paper.
And I will vote 'Yes' to that, and I am sure a majority of
voters in Cornwall will do the same. But first we may need
to block the Tamar bridge again, and carry out other acts
of non-violent direct action and civil disobedience, to demonstrate
en masse in London, and to lobby Parliament in large numbers,
because otherwise Cornwall's settled popular will to have
its own Assembly will continue to be ignored by the current
Government. I have also sent two other postings to this website,
Bob (and Phil, and Pearly) in response to your previous posts,
agreeing with other things you have said ... but possibly
because of problems somewhere between my PC and the 大象传媒's
computers, neither of those postings have appeared, but got
lost in the ether. Never mind! But Labour Ministers (and their
sole puppet MP in Cornwall) had better watch out - they are
getting themselves into a position to receive a very bloody
nose indeed from Trelawney's army! Kernow bys vikken!
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth |
I can see a lot of sense in Tim's proposed three clauses,
but how can one persuade this dogmatic Government to include
them. In the unlikely event that they could be persuaded,
they would almost certainly not give special voting privileges
to the counties in their proposed South West mega-Region,
so the clauses would have to apply for all the proposed regions,
to show even-handedness (that would be no bad thing).
For some proposed regions, such as the North East, I suspect
that the people in the incorporated counties would be in favour
of the proposed region. Although the proposed South West Region
is the obvious "pig's ear", (having no perceptible cohesive
identity between its distant extremities), the people within
some of the other 'regions' may also have strong objections
to the proposed groupings, e.g. the South East Region also
looks as if it has been thrown together without much thought.
It is certainly worth a try, but when the Government rejects
the proposal, as I am sure they will, the people of South
West of Britain will have to resort to voting against the
region, and for the status quo. Unfortunately, the abstention
option would probably send the wrong message, i.e. one of
apathy. If they get a massive rejection vote, they may just
be shocked into thinking again, and more logically next time.
I think that the Government is probably expecting a "no" vote
from the Cornish (following the 50,000+ vote petition), but
I reckon it would come as a shock to them if the Devonians
also voted "no" en-mass, and judging by the 'devolution' posts
on the 大象传媒 Devon site, that is most probably what would happen.
Bob Burns, Barton-upon-Humber |
Apologies for anybody upset by my inadvertent reference to
livestock: what I meant, of course, was 'in the same BOAT'.
Perhaps we and people thinking along Bob's lines could agree
on a common principle in responding to HMG's current 'devolution'
proposals for Southwestern Britain. We want self-government,
and so obviously support other people desiring the same thing.
Therefore, how about inserting into the relevant Bill three
clauses, stipulating that:
1) Cornwall and each of the six counties would be treated
as a separate voting area
2) The referendum would offer a choice as between the status
quo, self-government, and incorporation in this fictitious
'Southwest Region'
3) No voting area would be incorporated in such a 'Region'
without an outright majority in favour?
Tim, Caerdydd |
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