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re Lambeth abolishes Christmas
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Roots (U2273958) on Friday, 4th November 2005
So has PC gone completely mad? Noticed tonight in our local supermarket that they're not selling Advent calendars, but call them count down to festivities calendars, exactly the same as the old Advent calendars with doors to open, and chocs inside, but now they go up to New Year's Day instead of Christmas Day. As a child, (many years ago!) I had Advent calendars without chocs, but always with a picture of the crib scene on the 24th December. I'm a committed Christian but have no problem celebrating other faiths' special occasions. I'm not offended by it at all. So why is it always presumed that other faiths might be offended by so called Christian celebrations. And I'm not saying that Advent calendars are a celebration of the Christian faith. Just that some things have become traditional for a celebration of Christmas and why on earth should we stop them, rename them etc, in order not to offend those of a different religion?
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Message 2
Posted by irene (U2220663) on Friday, 4th November 2005
roots, 'countdown to festivities calendar'? if it wasnt serious, it wouldbe a complete side splitter for me. go back to the previouspage and see dageshs 'lambeth abolish christmas' thread (or similiar title, sorry cant remember properly)
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Message 3
Posted by Roots (U2273958) on Friday, 4th November 2005
Thanks Irene. I should have read through the whole thread before trying to start a new one. Now that I have read through it I get the impression that everyone is prepared to be tolerant of everyone else's faith, or non faith. So why this nonsense about offending people. Or perhaps only decent AMB people are tolerant of other faiths. Total nonsense of course. Long live free thinking and free religion
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Message 4
Posted by Dabchick (U2231736) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
I have just discovered that the headmaster of the local primary school (a C of E school) forbade - yes, forbade - his children from coming to see the pantomime our local drama group put on 2 years ago (he probably does it every year, but this was the one I was told about).
Since I wrote this panto, I was rather taken aback and not a little hurt by this. Apparently it's a 'pagan ritual'. The story is a cyber-based 'Red Riding hood' called Little Web Riding Hood and full of computer and internet references, but otherwise the traditional tale of morality and warnings about not letting little girls wander alone when there are 'wolves' about, the triumph of good over evil, and ending with a quite philosophical poem recited by the Snail Mail about the possible downside of relying too much on technology.
Pagan ritual? What happened to traditions, and what happened to letting children make up their own minds - not to mention having a good time in innocent fun provided by a variety of adults and young people who spent a lot of time rehearsing in church and village halls when they could have been out roaming the streets.
This headmaster runs a good school, and on Sundays can be found helping to lead the services in the happy-clappy village church, but I do wonder what damage he is doing, as well as the undoubted good. -
Message 5
Posted by Susquehanna (U2222537) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
Dabchick, words fail me.....almost.
I stopped taking my children to pantomimes when they were little because they were full of "adult" jokes and ritual humiliation of those invited to step up onto the stage to "help".
Yours sounds full of fun and interest, and to call it a pagan ritual without finding out a little more about it seems the very opposite of what "education" is supposed to mean.
Is it too late to send him a script in the hope that he realises what a mistake he has made? How can your pantomime work at all if local children and their families are not allowed to come? -
Message 6
Posted by RosieT (U2224719) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
donn, may I reccommend you get copies on "email: jesus@bethlehem" by Hilary Robinson, to present as prizes for the school children? Or one for Mr. Blinkers, anyway?
{{{huggs}}} rosiet xxx -
Message 7
Posted by Moonflower (U2267264) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
People like your local headteacher make me sooo cross!
I'm not talking with any degree of expertise at all here, but I thought that Christmas is celebrated at the same time as an old pagan midwinter festival was held? And that many "Christian" Christmas traditions were in fact much older than that - holly, ivy, Yule log and all that.
Tell him that next year you will write a dramatised version of the Mithras story (virgin birth in stable, visiting shepherds etc) Bit older than the Christan story, but I'm sure he'll enjoy it. -
Message 8
Posted by Paddy Redmond (U2270228) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
Re Dabchick - message 4
I'm afraid you've come across an all too common phenomenon viz. the knee-jerk intolerence of things which MIGHT not support the world-view of the protestor. It is important to distinguish this false, often pretend, rejection of others views from the genuine protest made it all sincerity by those who have thought through a problem and come to a point where they feel a stand has to be made. The problem lies in distinguishing the one group from the pther.
I am quite content for children to pursue Hallowe'en festivities (although I personally would prefer good old fashioned Mischief Night) but I can understand those Christians who abhor it because it is seen by them as a objectionable pagan rite. As a more liberal Christian than some I have no problem with what I see as a game without substance, similar in my mind to the Father Christmas nonsense which I can enjoy with my family around the time of an important Christian Feast which means a lot to me. I do not force this approach on others even though I might encourage them to take it.
The real enemy, as in so many aspects of life today, yesterday and probably tomorrow, are the extremists. I am fed up of being confused with the happy-clappy brigade whom I think are ruining my religion. Even if I accept their right to think and worship as they see fit I reserve my right to protest that it is not the truth. Those who reject Darwinism do more harm to Christianity than any number of sincere non-christian rationalists. I have no great quarrel with agnostics (we all veer that way at times) nor with the majority of atheists. But the atheists who try to convert me to their cause (why? What's in it for them ?) always seem to adopt the same 'yah, boo! How can you be so simple' tactics. The one good thing about it is that they convince me that there might be something in my liberal approach even if it's only good manners.
I hope that your Panto goes well, that all who want to can attend and that a little more tolerance enters your community this year. My hope is expressed from one personal angle. It will only bear fruit if others think the same way from their personal view points. -
Message 9
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
I wonder what they'd call the Advent wreaths which virtually every German family hangs on the door and has on the table with four candles, one for each advent Sunday? Has this caught on in the UK?
We've had two fires caused by them over the years - one quite serious. I actually invented an inflatable version which was quite a hit. Still got one somewhere. Goes well with the inflatable Xmas tree, which wasn't my idea I'm sad to say. -
Message 10
Posted by Morty Vicar (U2258253) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
oldbloke - inflatable wreath
Had you by any chance seen 'M. Hulot's Holiday' beforehand?
[Insert 'Blown up out of all proportion' joke HERE] -
Message 11
Posted by JennyDarling Long Gone (U250754) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
Regarding Adv ent calendars, many of the modern ones in the shops begin on the 1st December, and Advent can begin in November (26th I believe is about the earliest) so that is why the fakey chocky ones are called Countdown to Christmas. True Advent calendars have a Biblical picture behind each window culminating in the Nativity scene on the final one.
As a Christian with many friends of various and no faiths, I would make a plea for tolerance. None of my friends ever object when I send them a Christmas card.
And yes I will say Happy Christmas and NOT Happy Holiday which is really silly! Could be any old holiday! -
Message 12
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
After a bit of googling I've found that the countdown idea does relate to the very first Advent calendar traditions. A big German publisher of Advent calendars, they originated in Germany of course, uses the term in the English version of its web site.
The very first ones didn't have religious pictures, though some early ones had religious verses instead of pics.
Our 4 kids - ages ranging from 19 to 28 - still get their calendars - and their bootful of goodies on St Nikolaus Day (6th December) although I don't think any of them has ever been in a church except as tourists in their lives! Maybe a wedding or two.
I think the earliest Advent can begin is 27th Nov. - if Xmas Day is on a Sunday. As this year happens to be the case. This also means that nobody gets a day holiday for Xmas Day this year. Last year both Xmas Day and Boxing were lost as public holidays (plus New years day the week after!)
Regarding Adv ent calendars, many of the modern ones in the shops begin on the 1st December, and Advent can begin in November (26th I believe is about the earliest) so that is why the fakey chocky ones are called Countdown to Christmas. True Advent calendars have a Biblical picture behind each window culminating in the Nativity scene on the final one.
As a Christian with many friends of various and no faiths, I would make a plea for tolerance. None of my friends ever object when I send them a Christmas card.
And yes I will say Happy Christmas and NOT Happy Holiday which is really silly! Could be any old holiday! -
Message 13
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
PS I think printed Advent calendars have to have a fixed number of days / doors otherwise they'd be a nightmare to produce.
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Message 14
Posted by ooo-- Misty --ooo (U2226804) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
Regarding the title of this thread (and the recent one begun by Dagesh) ~ words quite literally fail me ~ so that's it!
This post is really in reply to the one by Dabchick about her pantomime. I've written one about Jonah & the Whale, and it's currently being rehearsed, with a view to being performed on 21st & 22nd January.
Apart from its title it IS fairly traditional,even with a bit of slapstick in the form of an "ice-cream" fight near the end. I would be "quite cross" or to put it another way APOPLECTIC ~ if anyone was to complain about it!!!
(Oh no she wouldn't ~ oh yes she would!!) -
Message 15
Posted by Roots (U2273958) on Saturday, 5th November 2005
Thanks for all these stories. I thought the demise of advent calendars was bad enough to comment on but your stories about pantomimes being 'pagan rituals' left me almost speechless. Have also picked up various threads and rumours that some very traditional stories need renaming, eg Snow White and the 7 dwarfs, what, snow black/multi coloured and the 7 vertically challenged people? I seem to remember also an Agatha Christie play which was renamed in case of offending. But does anyone ever ask these so called challenged minorities if they're offended by certain words. Indeed has anyone asked any Christians if they're offended by the removal of the word Christmas from such terms as Christmas lights. Def a case of 'stop the world, I want to get off!'
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Message 16
Posted by coolje (U2256285) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
I have just discovered that the headmaster of the local primary school (a C of E school) forbade - yes, forbade - his children from coming to see the pantomime our local drama group put on 2 years agoÂ
If I were you, if I had kids, I would make it known in school circles that my little angels are forbidden -- yes, forbidden -- from attending any of that school's carol services etc because their overt religious messages are contrary to the consumerist message of christmas more fitting to our times, and, more harmfully, they eat into valuable time that could be better used for shopping and overeating. -
Message 17
Posted by RosieT (U2224719) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
IIRC, RE is the only subject parents can withdraw their children from.
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Message 18
Posted by Gaye Gables (U2223317) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
Thanks for all these stories. I thought the demise of advent calendars was bad enough to comment on but your stories about pantomimes being 'pagan rituals' left me almost speechless. Have also picked up various threads and rumours that some very traditional stories need renaming, eg Snow White and the 7 dwarfs, what, snow black/multi coloured and the 7 vertically challenged people? I seem to remember also an Agatha Christie play which was renamed in case of offending. But does anyone ever ask these so called challenged minorities if they're offended by certain words. Indeed has anyone asked any Christians if they're offended by the removal of the word Christmas from such terms as Christmas lights. Def a case of 'stop the world, I want to get off!'Â
Rootsj, there is always a slew of "political correctness gone mad" stories and rumours around, and not all of them are true. You mention "an Agatha Christie play" that had to be renamed. You are probably thinking of 'Ten Little N-words' (rhymes with 'tigger'). In that case, yes, the "so-called challenged minority" concerned does object strongly to the use of that word - as do many people from other backgrounds (including me).
As far as I know, the oft-cited "Snow White and the seven vertically challenged individuals" is a spoof. I've seen interviews with dwarves who say they actively prefer that word to any mealymouthed euphemism. Like everything else in this world, the wish to use language sensitively can be carried too far. But surely that wish to be sensitive is not in itself a bad thing?
One other point - bear in mind that some of these examples actually come from parts of the Christian community. Donna's pantomime was condemned (stupidly, in my view) from an allegedly Christian standpoint; and remember all the schools and churches condemning Harry Potter?
As for advent calendars, religious ones are available from Christian bookshops and websites if that's what people want. I'd guess that for most people in the UK Christmas is a secular celebration revolving more around chocolate than Christ, so no doubt that's why supermarkets etc cater for that inclination. Gaye -
Message 19
Posted by studioj (U1600165) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
Sun, 06 Nov 2005 02:24:55 GMT, In reply to: Gaye Gables [
Hello Gaye,
hope you are well.
I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this thread (which is a *good* thing, especially as I haven't read it through).. just wanted to give you a wave.
(Yes, I've had a few)
jont -
Message 20
Posted by Gaye Gables (U2223317) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
Sun, 06 Nov 2005 02:24:55 GMT, In reply to: Gaye Gables [
Hello Gaye,
hope you are well.
I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this thread (which is a *good* thing, especially as I haven't read it through).. just wanted to give you a wave.
(Yes, I've had a few)
Âá´Ç²Ô³ÙÌý
Jont, how sweet of you! Waving back atcha. Very well indeed, thanks, and hope you are too. Cheers. Gaye -
Message 21
Posted by Flipper Neck (U2270473) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
I wonder what they'd call the Advent wreaths which virtually every German family hangs on the door and has on the table with four candles [...]Â
Four candles? ... aah! I see. Four candles! -
Message 22
Posted by oldbloke2 (U2285767) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
I wonder what they'd call the Advent wreaths which virtually every German family hangs on the door and has on the table with four candles [...]Â
Four candles? ... aah! I see. Four candles!Â
Did I say four candle? What I meant to say was: four candles.
The four candles are placed on the wreath, not on the table. However, as the wreath is normally on a table then I suppose the candles could be said to be on the table too, though notin contact with it.
A candle is lit on each Advent Sunday. So on the first Sunday one candle is alight and by the time the fourth Sunday comes all of them are alight. Sometimes the whole house is alight. -
Message 23
Posted by Dabchick (U2231736) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
Since this thread has now popped back to the top, I'd just like to say thanks to all those who posted thoughtful comments in reply to my story of the Forbidden Panto. I still find it pretty difficult to believe myself, especially as this particular headmaster has always seemed to me to be quite liberal, pleasant, nice to the kids and running an excellent school. (My own 2 grandchildren went there.) And since the thread of most pantomimes concern the triumph of good over evil, I don't know what basis he uses for this assertion. (I also think he doesn't fully understand the real meaning of the word 'pagan'.)
I'd very much like the chance to discuss it with him, but it's 2 years since mine was used and unless a suitable opportunity arises (this year, perhaps) it doesn't look likely. Anyway, I wouldn't give much for my chances of changing his mind.
Sigh.
donna -
Message 24
Posted by RosieT (U2224719) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
"A candle is lit on each Advent Sunday. So on the first Sunday one candle is alight and by the time the fourth Sunday comes all of them are alight. Sometimes the whole house is alight"
Blue Peter always do this. In fact, when visiting the studio to see a recording, we saw the wreath being lit with the first candle. -
Message 25
Posted by U1474383 (U1474383) on Sunday, 6th November 2005
"A candle is lit on each Advent Sunday. So on the first Sunday one candle is alight and by the time the fourth Sunday comes all of them are alight. Sometimes the whole house is alight"
Blue Peter always do this. In fact, when visiting the studio to see a recording, we saw the wreath being lit with the first candle.Â
oi 'oo nicked me wire coathangers?
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