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Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by quiz woman (U14833588) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Raised in not-religious, not church-going families, why have two young men that I know turned to religion, the Church, the Bible, in such a devoted way that their parents are taken aback, astonished and wondering what to make of it since their siblings did not go that route.
Does turning to religion to the extent of shunning all other books, believing that every word is true, writing and publishing their own books on the Bible, betoken an unhappy childhood, somehow? That is, if they can't cope with all the adults around them and the challenges of growing up, the Bible has every answer?
Apologies to any devout believers reading this, no offence intended whatsoever, but I am also out of answers on this.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 2
Posted by Leaping Badger (U3587940) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Ah, Dr Evadne Hinge, I'd wondered what had happened to you.
'Ö'Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 3
Posted by Prinkma (U14661090) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Are they brothers, friends, neighbours?
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Message 4
Posted by Stazbumpa (U4044370) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Obsessive behaviour with regard to religion is simply one manifestation of obsessive behaviour. It could be quite incidental that they latched onto religion, when in all probability it could've been any other thing, ideal or person at all.
With religion, though, I think the obsession could become quite self perpetuating since most religious texts somewhere make a point of telling you to forget all other gods and concentrate only on this one, which is the perfect fuel for an obsessive mind and could encourage that mind to be more literal, or possibly extreme, in its interpretation of whatever is in that book.
Just my tuppence anyway.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 5
Posted by DiamondLil (U11107751) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Delusional!
LilLink to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 6
Posted by yellowcat (U218155) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
There is good evidence that religiosity has a strong genetic component. It could be that if they have genes for that tendency that some other factor could trigger the behaviour. It could also be a symptom of schizophrenia or maybe it is some sort of coping strategy.
Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 7
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
qw, Converts can beome more fervent and possbly more fundamentalist in their new faith than 'cradle Christians'. In a fast changing and uncertain world the young men appear to have decided that their new faith will give answers they can't find elsewhere.
I have seen similar sudden conversions crash and burn in a very short space of time. I have seen others who have matured in faith and become much less dogmatic as time went by. I don't recall more than one of them who had what was a very unhappy &abusive childhood..Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 8
Posted by quiz woman (U14833588) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Are they brothers, friends, neighbours?
>>>>>> No, they live on different continentsLink to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 9
Posted by quiz woman (U14833588) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
With religion, though, I think the obsession could become quite self perpetuating since most religious texts somewhere make a point of telling you to forget all other gods and concentrate only on this one, which is the perfect fuel for an obsessive mind and could encourage that mind to be more literal, or possibly extreme, in its interpretation of whatever is in that book.
>>>>>> one of them is so devoted that he married to someone chosen for him by his Church, had a 500-people Church ceremony with blood relatives permitted to attend, and does not do or celebrate Christmas as most of the rest of us do, because it is fake. That one has a very strict Church. This is all in the UK not America by the way.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 10
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
they can't cope with all the adults around them and the challenges of growing up,Ìý
Presumably you have thought this a possibility. Many young people fall into societies or habits that appear to give them some kind of solace. Family upbringing often has nothing to do with it. Some people seek crutches, or outward support of some kind. Many might take to drugs, for example, despite no history in the family.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 11
Posted by Poorgrass (U12099742) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
I was brought up in a non-churchgoing nonreligious family. I became a Christian at age 30. In the church I attend at the moment there are quite a few people that come from nonreligious backgrounds.
There was some research in the US that suggested that of all religious groups, atheists had one of the lowest "retention rates" of that faith amongst their children - only 30%. Unfortunately as far as I'm aware there's no similar research in Britain.
As for the reasons why people leave atheism, I suppose it's a bit incomprehensible to many atheists as it is for fervent believers in any faiths that some might choose to leave that particular faith. But the reasons are many and complicated, probably too many for this post.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 12
Posted by quiz woman (U14833588) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
There is good evidence that religiosity has a strong genetic component. It could be that if they have genes for that tendency that some other factor could trigger the behaviour. It could also be a symptom of schizophrenia or maybe it is some sort of coping strategy.
>>>>>>> None of their siblings have done this.
The other one announced on the internet that he was going to devote the rest of his life to Jesus. This at the age of 24. Then he wrote a book about it and had it self-published. The rest of us do not understand why and are to varying degrees wondering what is going to happen next.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 13
Posted by Fee (U3534148) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
>>>>>>> None of their siblings have done this.
That doesn't prove that there isn't a genetic tendency. I think current research thinks that there probably is a genetic component to addictive/obsessive behaviour - although nurture and circumstance are also important.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 14
Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
There was some research in the US that suggested that of all religious groups, atheists had one of the lowest "retention rates" of that faith amongst their children - only 30%. Unfortunately as far as I'm aware there's no similar research in Britain.Ìý
I'm not sure what that means since atheists aren't an organised religious group that you can leave. What becomes of apostate atheists and their children? Do they all turn into evangelical Christians?
I remember seeing some research conducted in this country a couple of years ago, I can't give a reference, to the effect that on average only 50% of the children of Christians maintain an active belief in that religion.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 15
Posted by Borsetshire Blue (U2260326) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
>>>>>>> None of their siblings have done this.
That doesn't prove that there isn't a genetic tendency. I think current research thinks that there probably is a genetic component to addictive/obsessive behaviour - although nurture and circumstance are also important.
Ìý
That's right Fee, the interaction between genetic variation and environmental impact is not straightforward.
I have been reading about research into depression which looked at how the serotonin transporter gene, which has three possible variations, was related to stressful life events as a predictor that an individual will suffer depression. Fascinating.
Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 16
Posted by NorthernGal (U2344632) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
I find this puzzling, too, and not just about "youngsters". I have seen in my own family many of the baby boomers becoming zealous in their religious beliefs. I find it quite troubling. They seem to be using religion to stabilize for them what is a changing and frightening world.
What I find the most bizarre is that their parents (Depression era generation) were open minded about science, Darwin, and the things of their generation, and this generation is rejecting those theories out of hand. It is almost as if they are trying to go back in time.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 17
Posted by kk forever in the cyber atlantis of mustardland (U4670994) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Does turning to religion to the extent of shunning all other books, believing that every word is true, writing and publishing their own books on the Bible, betoken an unhappy childhood, somehow? Ìý
Not necessarily. It's probably far more significant to learn to whom they were exposed, and on the receiving end of what persuasive rhetoric, at a time when they were feeling vulnerable, actively seeking meaning and looking for answers.
As for a genetic link to religion, there may well be a predisposition to belief which is then culturally reinforced within a community, which may or may not be that of the biological or extended family.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 18
Posted by La Bez (U14670366) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
I don't think it is a particularly new phenomenon. Some people, I think, are just drawn to finding a more spiritual path in life and some seek a framework in which to pursue it. Those among them who are brought up in a religious family or community will, by and large, probably find it within that setting. Those who aren't will go and seek it for themselves in a variety of places - look at the numbers of people who went seeking answers in Eastern religions back in the '60's and 70's, it wasn't all drug fueled, many were genuinely seeking answers. And it's not just Christianity that people are drawn to either, Islam is drawing it's own share of young converts
And as someone else says converts have a habit of being more fundamental than those of us brought up in a particular church. If you are seeking definite answers then you are more likely to be drawn to those sects/denominations that appear to be most absolute in their beliefs - rather than, say, the more liberal seemingly "wishy washy" wings.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 19
Posted by NorthernGal (U2344632) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
La Bez,
Some people, I think, are just drawn to finding a more spiritual path in life and some seek a framework in which to pursue it.Ìý
Being spiritual and being religious are not necessarily the same thing. Organized religion can be quite dangerous as history has demonstrated.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 20
Posted by Bette (U2222559) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Some people seem to seek some kind of spirituality, often if they don't get what they want from organised religion (IMO/IME). I don't see how that changes anything about the OP. Some people seek this, but others don't have that need.
Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 21
Posted by NorthernGal (U2344632) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
I don't see how that changes anything about the OP. Some people seek this, but others don't have that need. Ìý
The point I was making is that some people may be spiritual, which I consider self determined, while others require organized religion to dictate their lives, as in the example given of the young man having the church choose his spouse.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 22
Posted by Hesperus (U14543047) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
I was brought up in a non-churchgoing nonreligious family. I became a Christian at age 30. In the church I attend at the moment there are quite a few people that come from nonreligious backgrounds.
There was some research in the US that suggested that of all religious groups, atheists had one of the lowest "retention rates" of that faith amongst their children - only 30%. Unfortunately as far as I'm aware there's no similar research in Britain.
As for the reasons why people leave atheism, I suppose it's a bit incomprehensible to many atheists as it is for fervent believers in any faiths that some might choose to leave that particular faith. But the reasons are many and complicated, probably too many for this post.Ìý Poorgrass - if you were brought up in that tradition, i find it rather odd that you regard atheism as a 'belief'. It isn't - it'ssimply the absence of a belief in God.
Our family tradition has always been one of scepticism and questioning and not telling our children what to believe but rather encouraging them to work out their own belief system. (Incidentally - so far there have been no converts to any religion in the family)
This attitude would of course make it much easier for children to choose another system of belief, were they so minded.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 23
Posted by La Bez (U14670366) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
La Bez,
Some people, I think, are just drawn to finding a more spiritual path in life and some seek a framework in which to pursue it.Ìý
Being spiritual and being religious are not necessarily the same thing. Organized religion can be quite dangerous as history has demonstrated. Ìý I know they aren't NG but some people seeking for spiritual answers will seek them in organised religionLink to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 24
Posted by Poorgrass (U12099742) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Ah - but to any true believer, their belief isn't just a faith, it's just the truth, the way and the life. And no doubt you can think up loads of reasons and evidence why it's true. It's only when you leave it there you see it differently, as just another religion. And that's just as true for atheism, as it is for any other faith. In any case I don't buy the claim that atheism is just the lack of belief - I used to be one and would have said that when I was one but I now see it in an entirely different light. I would say it's putting a particular slant on the universe (that it has no purpose and that it either somehow created itself from nothing entirely randomly or has always existed) that is no more evidence-based than any other faith. And that in my book is definitely a belief or faith.
Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 25
Posted by Pan Mustardland is where the heart is Shoshana (U14836935) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
If it makes sense to someone, it catches when it catches, upbringing may or may not have a bearing upon it.
Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 26
Posted by NewCastleIndianaUSA (U10808100) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Raised in not-religious, not church-going families, why have two young men that I know turned to religion, the Church, the Bible, in such a devoted way that their parents are taken aback, astonished and wondering what to make of it since their siblings did not go that route.
Does turning to religion to the extent of shunning all other books, believing that every word is true, writing and publishing their own books on the Bible, betoken an unhappy childhood, somehow? That is, if they can't cope with all the adults around them and the challenges of growing up, the Bible has every answer?
Apologies to any devout believers reading this, no offence intended whatsoever, but I am also out of answers on this. Ìý again, I've been listening to a RTB. There is a man there raised by a muslim father, but he did not practice. He was a brilliant young student. Set out to prove or find fault with religions. Eventually was won over by the christian bible. It's worth it for anyone to understand how they view things. That is the answer you are looking for, should you be looking for a serious, scientist's approach to turning to a religion he scoffed at and was not raised under and such. One of the guys on this team talks about how he did some related work for this past month's biggest event in the world... the USA LANDING ON MARS. He works for NASA JPL. I have grown to admire how hard working these guys are who were not raised under any religion.
Here is their disbeliever page - I have not perused it.
here is Fazale bio, the one raised by a Muslim father.
These are the guys that recently had sessions in London, that one (you guys) could have attended if you desired any serious discussion with them to understand. I don't know if you missed my post or not. Good opportunity. I'm sure they'll be back. I've posted the audio link to their discussion with some atheist over there, too. That's the only one I found. I don't spend much time looking, though.
Dave Rogstad is (one/the?) the ones that works for/consults with JPL. Not petty scientists. Hard core guys.
Good luck in your endeavor to add to your understanding.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 27
Posted by Psiomniac (U3027615) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
Poorgrass,
I see you are still assuming that all atheists are as you were, but this is not the case. It is interesting how people engage in motivated reasoning though, isn't it? Take your case for example, I as an atheist have explained to you more times than I can count, that I make no truth claims such as those you offer as examples (that the universe has no purpose and that it either somehow created itself from nothing entirely randomly or has always existed).
Yet this never seems to 'stick', so you think you characterise atheism correctly as a faith position, whereas really all you have done is dispatch another straw opponent..Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 28
Posted by Pan Mustardland is where the heart is Shoshana (U14836935) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012
I'll have a look at those links when time allows - It's not that unusual for scientists to turn to religion, they aren't mutually exclusive standpoints, I know at least two professors, and others of whom the stereotypical view might be of atheism.
Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 29
Posted by Fourteenbore (U2227836) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Why do some youngsters turn to religion.
For the same reason that some turn to communism, fascism and cults, because it gives them a way of facing the world without having to think for themselves.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 30
Posted by Pan Mustardland is where the heart is Shoshana (U14836935) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
There we go, the old insulting claim that religious people don't think for themselves
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Message 31
Posted by Fourteenbore (U2227836) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Not attacking any particular group, merely commenting that teenagers are prone to be attracted to groups that give them a course in life based on a command structure.
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Message 32
Posted by CC Growing old disgracefully (U13344869) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
I don't think it is a particularly new phenomenon. Some people, I think, are just drawn to finding a more spiritual path in life and some seek a framework in which to pursue it. Those among them who are brought up in a religious family or community will, by and large, probably find it within that setting. Those who aren't will go and seek it for themselves in a variety of places - look at the numbers of people who went seeking answers in Eastern religions back in the '60's and 70's, it wasn't all drug fueled, many were genuinely seeking answers. And it's not just Christianity that people are drawn to either, Islam is drawing it's own share of young converts
And as someone else says converts have a habit of being more fundamental than those of us brought up in a particular church. If you are seeking definite answers then you are more likely to be drawn to those sects/denominations that appear to be most absolute in their beliefs - rather than, say, the more liberal seemingly "wishy washy" wings.Ìý Sorry i do not understand what "wishy washy" wings mean? Could someone explain please? thanks
I think that people no matter what age turn to religion because they want more in life than this world can offer them and they find it in religion.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 33
Posted by Abby33 (U6428266) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
I don't think it at all bizarre. Many parents have the view that they give birth and have 'a blank sheet' to imprint whatever they believe, or don't believe, themselves.
If they are a Christian, a vegetarian, a Labour voter, keen footballer etc etc then their child will follow. It doesn't happen. The child has a mind of their own and they have a free choice.
Many a person is taken to church as a child and rejects it in later life and so I don't find it at all odd that they are brought up in an atheist household and seek religion.
I know a vicar who took himself off to church, by himself for the first time ever, at 11yrs, a butcher who had vegan parents-I could go on and on-I find it very healthy and I can't see why it makes the slightest difference to family relationships.
On thing for sure is that if an adult is asked why they are an atheist they don't say 'because my parents were'-they think for themselves. In many cases this will lead them to think differently to their parents. Many people do the opposite, so people who are very vocal in their opposition to religion are quite likely to have children who turn to it.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 34
Posted by yellowcat (U218155) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Not attacking any particular group, merely commenting that teenagers are prone to be attracted to groups that give them a course in life based on a command structure.Ìý
I think you are right about that, it is in many cases a way of not having to face reality themselves.
Funny how some can interpret you sensible and logical statement as an attack.
As more detailed genetic testing becomes cheaper it would be interesting to try and find genetic markers for religiosity and also see if there is any correlation between the more extreme, obsessive religiosity and ostensibly secular behaviours such as political activism.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 35
Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
i think this canard about atheism being a faith needs knocking on the head once and for all.
Put a group of atheists in a room and they have nothing in common but their lack of belief in a deity, nothing to discuss about their commonality of belief than that, which would take about ten seconds. Do the same for a group of catholics, baptists, methodists and they have all the things in common that flow from their religious belief, and a good few difference that come from the same source too probably. Where are the atheist sacred texts that lay down the tenets of the faith (a prize for the first facile reply naming The God Delusion)?
I can go weeks, months, probably years without the fact that I'm an atheist entering my mind. In fact I suspect the last time I thought about it was the last time there was a thread like that here. It simply doesn't impinge on my everyday life. What practicing member of an organised faith can say that?Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 36
Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
And where are the temples, churches or other buildings where atheists get together to prctice their faith?
Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 37
Posted by Prinkma (U14661090) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
As for the reasons why people leave atheism, I suppose it's a bit incomprehensible to many atheists as it is for fervent believers in any faiths that some might choose to leave that particular faith. But the reasons are many and complicated, probably too many for this post.Ìý
I've never understood why religious people continually claim that a lack of belief is the same thing as a belief.
My DISbelief in religion does not define me in any way, nor does my disbelief that there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, or Santa Claus at the North Pole. I'm not a fervent believer in atheism - I don't know anyone who is, apart from Dawkins - I'm simply not interested. Atheism is not a faith.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 38
Posted by kk forever in the cyber atlantis of mustardland (U4670994) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
And where are the temples, churches or other buildings where atheists get together to prctice their faith?Ìý
No need for artefacts and edifices, Reggie, they're all secular atheists ;~)
FWIW I think that there may well be a predisposition to belief, without being specific about what an individual, a community or a society believes in.
Religiosity might or could be one example of this in practice but, as someone pointed out upthread, this is a manifestation of compulsive, obsessive or addictive behaviour as well.
I used to think that atheism was the /equivalent/ of a faith position but I've come to realise that, for some at least, it might be a belief position - given that there's not much room for doubt amongst those who lean towards dogmatic views.
Here's one of my favourite quotations which I annoy people by sharing from time to time:
One's belief that one is sincere is not so dangerous as one's conviction that one is right. We all feel we are right; but we felt the same twenty years ago and today we know we weren't always right.
Igor Stravinsky ÌýLink to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 39
Posted by Poorgrass (U12099742) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
>Atheism is not a faith.<
Assuming that you are an atheist, you are looking at it from the inside. Almost any fundamentalist or devout religious believer would claim that his/her religion is not a religion, but the truth. And you could have the same sort of argument with them and chances are they would not change their position. So I'm neither surprised by nor convinced by the denials of atheists.
As for the other objection mentioned upthread, that atheism lacks places of worship etc., none of those things are essential to a religion. Some religions are organized, others not. Some have creeds and carefully defined beliefs, others do not.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 40
Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Of course you can say that some religions lack this or that aspect that we associate with religion but none of them lack all of them. Otherwise they wouldn't be religions. Atheism lacks them all and that's why lack of belief in a deity isn't a religion.
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Message 41
Posted by kk forever in the cyber atlantis of mustardland (U4670994) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
So I'm neither surprised by nor convinced by the denials of atheists.Ìý
That might be because, as a theist, it is necessary for you to ascribe a category in order to square the circle.
I don't agree with your categorisation of what I, as a reluctant atheist, think or believe ... you seem to be projecting your own remembered position when you lacked belief. I'm sure you thought, at that time, that you were right. You've now changed your mind and adopted another version of what you believe to be the truth.
Sorry, Poorgrass, but being sincere in your belief doesn't make you right.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 42
Posted by Prinkma (U14661090) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
>Atheism is not a faith.<
Assuming that you are an atheist, you are looking at it from the inside. Almost any fundamentalist or devout religious believer would claim that his/her religion is not a religion, but the truth. And you could have the same sort of argument with them and chances are they would not change their position. So I'm neither surprised by nor convinced by the denials of atheists
Ìý
You're not worth arguing with, since you're incapable of digesting what others say. I don't believe in Santa Claus. I don't believe in fairies. It's insulting to claim that that's a faith.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 43
Posted by Psiomniac (U3027615) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Poorgrass,
So I'm neither surprised by nor convinced by the denials of atheists.Ìý
I think this is a result of your motivated reasoning. Despite finding you to be, as far as I can tell, reasonable and articulate in general, you seem to have a blind spot here.
I have watched you make this argument many times. You always trace out your path from atheist to believer and then when an atheist like me attempts dialogue and tries to point out that your model of atheism, albeit based on personal experience, is not the only one available, you seem unable to engage with this.
I am still curious as to whether a zeal for defending faith against the hubris of the new atheists actually blinds you to these flaws in your position, or whether you know them perfectly well but choose to ignore them for the sake of furthering the cause.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 44
Posted by Mr_Edwards (U3815709) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Organized religion can be quite dangerous as history has demonstrated. Ìý
The danger comes not from religion per se but from the apocalypse meme, which began in Zoroastrianism and spread from there to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Marxism and countless Chinese and Japanese cults beginning with the Red Turbans and on to Aum Shinrikyu and beyond. (I am not claiming that all of those are necessarily apocalyptic, just that there are apocalyptic elements within each).
If people believe that the world has to be destroyed so that they can have a brand new world more to their liking, it is inevitable that they lose focus on the day to day consequences of their actions, which appears callous to say the least to those of us not afflicted with this meme.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 45
Posted by kk forever in the cyber atlantis of mustardland (U4670994) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
... a zeal for defending ... Ìý
What I'm genuinely curious to know is whether Poorgrass defended atheism with the same vigour, when atheism was the 'theism' of choice.
Poorgrass, did you have unassailable belief that there was no deity, and is that why you argue from personal experience that it is akin to a faith position? Because it may have been, for you.
My own experiences took me in the opposite position of travel: I had faith and belief, and I lost faith. Subsequently, circumstances caused me to lose belief as well. I don't have any faith in atheism: what I have are the gravest and, now, long-standing doubts; nothing I experience (which, on one level, doesn't matter at all), or observe in the lives of others, dislodges these profound and sceptical misgivings.
As for whoever it was who said that scientists can be, or can become religious: of course. But what about others, who do the opposite, why not acknowledge that this must happen as well?Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 46
Posted by La Bez (U14670366) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
<>Sorry i do not understand what "wishy washy" wings mean? Could someone explain please? thanks <>
Sorry. By "wishy, washy" I meant that people actively seeking answers from religion are, I suspect, more likely to be drawn to the more absolute, "fire and brimstones" versions of it rather than the more genteel "tea with the vicar" varieties.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 47
Posted by Amy Bridge (U2239711) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
The other thing is that atheists might (or on the other hand might not) have any number of different value systems and ethical beliefs by which they live. Theose value systems won't contain a god but that absence isn't their most defining characteristic. I'm thinking for example of a humanist celebrant who posts in ML sometimes-- not really sure if I should be using an MLer as an example (and dammit, her name escapes me for the moment anyway) but she is someone who clearly lives by what she believes, in a deeply compassionate way.
I'm sure her values are shared by some other atheists (and indeed they may be close to some held by some religious people), but the atheism isn't what is central in the same way as faith is for those who are religious.
(I'm not an atheist by the way, nor am I a Christian, so don't have loads invested in this disagreement but it seems clear to me that atheists are other things besides atheists and that those other things are usually --as far as I can tell from what they say-- more important to them than the fact that they don't believe in God).
Amy xLink to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 48
Posted by kk forever in the cyber atlantis of mustardland (U4670994) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Savannahlady ...Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 49
Posted by Amy Bridge (U2239711) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Ah yes, of course, thanks kk.
Amy xLink to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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Message 50
Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Thursday, 16th August 2012
Iirc correctly savvie identified herself as an agnostic rather than an atheist, but that doesn't invalidate Amy's argument.
Among the many things I don't have in common with Richard Dawkins, but the most relevant from the point of view of this thread, is ideology. He appears to be a biological determinist and I would still identify myself as a Marxist What faith do we share?
I'm not an egregious self publicist either.Link to this forum: Why do some youngsters turn to religion?
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