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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
It seems that even German cities are increasingly worried about the numbers of Immigrants from the remaining EE accession countries still to receive employment acceptance in the wider EU.
And the Germans only pay child benefit and not HB and much else, according to the oracle! Given the excessive generousity and availability of our benefits, how many more are we likely to see?
Perhaps we will be lucky enough to have several self-employed, benefit-claiming Big Issue sellers on each street! -
Message 2
Posted by robtgore (U15575703) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
It's tricky. We are committed to a single market in which at one end no one will get out of bed for less than £10 an hour and at the other end people will bite your hand off for a reliable offer of £1 ph.
That is a founding element of the free market theory, competition and free access to the market for sellers and buyers, and free competition amongst workers for wages.
In the UK we have failed dismally to balance regional development, wages, and wealth between the SE and the NE, how mediated by Brussels we can hope to balance Latvia and Germany or Romania and England, no one has a clue. -
Message 3
Posted by Miladou bloody but unbowed (U3518248) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Darn it! After 2 hours, I was hoping that Aunty's latest attempt at sowing discord was being left to sink down the mayo but, alas, it was not to be!
Good entry in the "how many questions can you beg in a single post" competition though, Aunty dear. -
Message 4
Posted by robtgore (U15575703) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
The discord" derives from the facts, not vice versa. If you merge accountancy regions and harmonise currencies, and permit freedom of access and domicile, just exactly how do you suggest that the well paid areas' workers do not lose their buying power, when overwhelmed by cheaper and willing competition?
You illustrate perfectly the whole problem of the PC approach, that if something is not talked about openly, it will simply disappear by magic. -
Message 5
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
A quality post from you, as often! Thank you. The PC posters here, public 'servants' and such, don't like the truth, untouched as they are, now and in retirement, by competition for jobs and housing.
Those WunNooLaBor supporters who used to scream 'racist' at such posts are nowadays more than a little stymied by the fact that Millionaireband has, sotto voce (softly, mods), suggested that the government of which he was a member got it wrong, only slightly wrong, when admitting 4 + million economic immigrants to the UK. He will, of course, be grateful for their support if he deigns to offer us a GE in 2020! -
Message 6
Posted by Slightly-Foxed_a cat needs rehoming in Droitwich (U9332727) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Given the excessive generousity and availability of our benefits, Ìý
ha ha ha ha
it's the way you tell em! -
Message 7
Posted by Prinkma (U14661090) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
WunNooLaBor supporters
Millionaireband
Ìý
How to get people to read your posts, and take your points seriously. -
Message 8
Posted by robtgore (U15575703) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
From the Somalian or Romanian perspective, where many live ostracised in rotting little villages in the hills or amongst the trash piles in cities, the idea of a free house, money without work, free education and health care, and no persecution, does look, "excessively generous". It is.
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Message 9
Posted by AZomby (U15557153) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
.... Those WunNooLaBor ... Ìý
Here we go again. It did not take you long, the usual petty party politics. Blairs fault. Browns fault. Millibands fault. It's absolutely pathetic when everyone knows its all Thatchers fault. You'll have to do better than that Aunty. Your stuff is even worse than all the rubbish wot I post. -
Message 10
Posted by Prinkma (U14661090) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
From the Somalian or Romanian perspective, where many live ostracised in rotting little villages in the hills or amongst the trash piles in cities, the idea of a free house, money without work, free education and health care, and no persecution, does look, "excessively generous". It is.Ìý
They manage to bring the persecution with them wherever they go, though. You'd think at some stage they might start looking at cause and effect.... -
Message 11
Posted by Slightly-Foxed_a cat needs rehoming in Droitwich (U9332727) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
If you merge accountancy regions and harmonise currencies, and permit freedom of access and domicile, just exactly how do you suggest that the well paid areas' workers do not lose their buying power, when overwhelmed by cheaper and willing competition?Ìý
Exactly! And this is the question that should be put to all those in favour of the EU political project, including the leaders of the two major political parties (and the Liberal Democrats) but you won't find any answers. Even Cameron's partial Damascene conversion has more to do with UKIP nipping at his heels and his premonition that the next general election will be a car crash he may not even be around to witness, than a desire to protect British interests.
The only people asking this question consistently are UKIP, which is very depressing when one considers the fact that they are all four stops beyond Barking and well off the bus route, and generally, although they *say* immigrants, they *mean* BROWN immigrants, but you won't get them to admit it publicly.
God alone knows where the rational opposition to the EU and all its works is going to come from. If we have to rely on Nigel Farage to oppose it, then I thin it's probably time to retire to "Dunmeein, Isle of Arran".
Of course the OP is based on all the usual dodgy premises, that "there are hundreds of them and they're all over here and they're taking our jobs and our women and our plasma TVs and they've only got to rock up at Dover docks to be handed a free car and the keys to a council house while honest hard working families will have to go up chimneys and be forced to look at closed curtains all day and it's all the fault of Noolabour/Gordon Brown spent all the money etc etc zzz zzz contd p94, foam at the mouth and fall over backwards" It's like a tape loop, and obviously the Torybots are out in force today because the orders have gone out to do anything/everything to deflect attention from the fact that Cameron has got problems over gay marriage from Sir Bufton Tufton and his ilk.
To be honest, this sort of post has been debunked so many times it's probably easier just to say it's a lot more complicated than that (WHY aren't there enough resources to go round when we can spend bazillions bombing the Middle East, to name but one), see standard answer #47, and leave it at that, but of course this won't stop this thread becoming 1189 posts long with people lobbing grenades from well-entrenched positions. -
Message 12
Posted by ARENA (U3567614) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
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Message 13
Posted by fat_kid (U1705916) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
DeNial is where people drown.
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Message 14
Posted by Ontarian (U2082678) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
< people lobbing grenades from well-entrenched positions. >
Something you never do, eh, Slightly? -
Message 15
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
I'm psychic! I knEw that this thread was going to be about immigration before I even opened it! Do I get a prize?
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Message 16
Posted by FowPah (U1746998) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
WunNooLaBor supporters
Millionaireband
Ìý
How to get people to read your posts, and take your points seriously.
Ìý It's the typical schoolboy style we have come to expect.Another foreigner bad thread. -
Message 17
Posted by filboid_studge (U15549494) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Surely migrants who are prepared to work for very little, not make a fuss about such trivial things as below minimum wage rates, live in unpleasant and overcrowded housing, and work for very long hours, are, for the national economy, a 'Good Thing'?
They reduce the costs of manufacture and distribution, and live in places that don't seem to appeal to the 'native' population. This reduces employers' costs overall, and makes our exports more attractive.
Not to mention (for those that use them) that the NHS, public transport, catering, commercial cleaning, and many retailers, would collapse without these workers! -
Message 18
Posted by Spartacus (U14243804) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
I'm psychic! I knEw that this thread was going to be about immigration before I even opened it! Do I get a prize?Ìý No! That was FAR to easy!
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Message 19
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Surely migrants who are prepared to work for very little, not make a fuss about such trivial things as below minimum wage rates, live in unpleasant and overcrowded housing, and work for very long hours, are, for the national economy, a 'Good Thing'?
They reduce the costs of manufacture and distribution, and live in places that don't seem to appeal to the 'native' population. This reduces employers' costs overall, and makes our exports more attractive.
Not to mention (for those that use them) that the NHS, public transport, catering, commercial cleaning, and many retailers, would collapse without these workers!Ìý
Yep.
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Message 20
Posted by robtgore (U15575703) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
It's a "good thing" if you believe in a low wage economy that transmits £-trillions to the top, but actually if you follow the logic, depressing wages cannot work long term. Consumerism only works to drive the economy when the consumers are spending; depress their wages and you get the sort of problem we have now, spiral stagnation, driven by shrinking elective spending power.
People above are complaining about hidden racism and so on, but even if the Romanian Gypsy on £1 an hour and the Harley Street surgeon on £500 ph were both exactly the same height, skin colour, and religion, the key differences that drive discrimination are still there, namely, 1/Culture, 2/Education, 3/Aspiration, 4/Circumstance. Most remarks about 'racism, are discrimination based on these four categories, of which skin colour or nationality are merely markers.
Playing the race card is simply a device to over simplify the analysis and to stifle all discussion, and therefore prolong the serious debate about how you mix cultures and economically different areas without social disruption. One thing is for sure, not talking about it has not worked. -
Message 21
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Surely migrants who are prepared to work for very little, not make a fuss about such trivial things as below minimum wage rates, live in unpleasant and overcrowded housing, and work for very long hours, are, for the national economy, a 'Good Thing'?
They reduce the costs of manufacture and distribution, and live in places that don't seem to appeal to the 'native' population. This reduces employers' costs overall, and makes our exports more attractive.
Not to mention (for those that use them) that the NHS, public transport, catering, commercial cleaning, and many retailers, would collapse without these workers!Ìý This is where your arguments, and those of so many others, founder.
70% of them live in London and the M25 area, where housing costs are very high indeed. What economic advantage can there be to paying low wages and then paying indvidual families to whom we owe no particular duty of care, their having arrived but recently, tens of thousands pa in benefits? These immigrants contribute much less than they consume.
And what is wrong with our own economically inactive doing these essential jobs? If we have to train them, our schools having failed to educate them, so be it but let it be a requirement to receive benefits. -
Message 22
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Another well- reasoned post. Good job that I'm here to take the flak!
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Message 23
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
< people lobbing grenades from well-entrenched positions. >
Something you never do, eh, Slightly? Ìý You can't post that about Foxy!
He is a well-loved and respected institution here, much applauded by the public sector types who have the time to frequent The Bull!!
Their jobs don't suffer competition from immigrants thanks to the fool Brown. -
Message 24
Posted by fat_kid (U1705916) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
No doubt someone will be along to make another aside comment to a 'mate' about you shortly, Auntie.
I predict it won't be particularly funny nor witty but will almost certainly be greeted with sage nods and/or titters from a few. -
Message 25
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Only a few, f-k!!
I would be disappointed- I usually expect the brethren to respond in great number! -
Message 26
Posted by londonplug (U13638089) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
.... Those WunNooLaBor ... Ìý
Here we go again. It did not take you long, the usual petty party politics. Blairs fault. Browns fault. Millibands fault. It's absolutely pathetic when everyone knows its all Thatchers fault. You'll have to do better than that Aunty. Your stuff is even worse than all the rubbish wot I post.Ìý REPLY................. It was the Blair/Brown Dynasty that did it and it has done hundreds of time more permanent damage to the British working class than ANYTHING the Great Ms Thatcher ever did
Not saying the Conservatives would not have done i t,,,, and lets face it they are not actualy doing anything to stop i t by waving in over 4000 extra people into the country to add to the 8 million unemployment bonfire are they -
Message 27
Posted by AZomby (U15557153) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Another well- reasoned post. Good job that I'm here to take the flak!Ìý
I should think so, having lit the 'blue' touchpaper (again). -
Message 28
Posted by fat_kid (U1705916) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
It's easy to get a jaundiced view of this place by regularly encountering that sort of nonsense.
But I think the overwhelming majority of posters are actually quite happy to live and let live with contrary opinions.
(But of course you hardly ever see them passing comments). -
Message 29
Posted by AZomby (U15557153) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Not saying the Conservatives would not have done it,,,, Ìý
Thats my point about party politics. Tory / Labour/ Lib Dem.The faces might change but the policies don't. It's all a con job (with a small 'c'). -
Message 30
Posted by Go away historians of the future (U1484964) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
I love the aroma of double standards of a lunchtime.
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Message 31
Posted by hoddles off into the sunset (U14129169) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
What are your views on gay marriage, Rawsie? Dave and Gideon are all for it.
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Message 32
Posted by AZomby (U15557153) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Not to mention William Hague.
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Message 33
Posted by hoddles off into the sunset (U14129169) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Whatever I write in reply would be seen as a slur on William Hague, who is clearly heterosexual ... even though he can be a typical Yorkshireman when it comes to paying for an extra bed.
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Message 34
Posted by robtgore (U15575703) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
The major parties are to blame. They are obsessed with distractions, private peccadilloes, and guaranteed re-election. Posters on the other hand are obsessed with jibes against their enemies, and distractions from the main topic.
This is the essence of Aunty's OP problem.
Fact 1. More people with lower aspirations competing for less jobs.
Fact 2. Open borders and easy benefits.
Q 1. How do we fix it especially when in an EU wide depression.
Astonishing how posters can drag racism and personal enmities into that.
It's a policy issue that needs to be predicated on a clear view of the future structure of our society. We can either plan that change calmly now, or wait for further chaos and plan it hurriedly and reactively. The bad news is, it is not going to go away on its own. -
Message 35
Posted by petal jam (U1466691) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
>>It seems that even German cities are increasingly worried about the numbers of Immigrants<<
Ah - a topic on which I have current news to relate.
This weekend a former neighbour of mine dropped in. She is top personnel person for a European wide retail business, based in Berlin for the last five or six years. After saying ooh well done, I asked if she spent her time on dispute resolution and she answered that the biggest problem they have is recruitment - and it's not just her organisation that needs [mostly] entry level staff.
She also remarked later on that there were a lot of youngish people around Berlin at the moment speaking excellent English and who turn out to be Poles working their way back from the UK to Poland. Not burdening the state at all.
Slightly different perspective. -
Message 36
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Whilst I would not seek to provoke you, robtgore, at least one of the major parties, currently HM opposition, have already set out their stall on the future society they wish to see.
It is predicated upon a multicultural, free-loading, gerrymandered, 1984/Animal Farm reverse democracy in which the rich are soaked to provide ever more succour to the ever-growing legions of the 'needy' and 'deserving', whilst they heap ever more riches upon themselves and ever more debt on the declining contributing workers and their unfortunate, because already bankrupt, offspring. -
Message 37
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Are they Polish Romanians or Romanian Polish then? Always seeking to diminish the impact of the excessive economic migration we have suffered and seem set to suffer again!
Are they still being paid UK benefits, I wonder? -
Message 38
Posted by FowPah (U1746998) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Loool
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Message 39
Posted by Surabaya Johnny (U1163609) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Whilst I would not seek to provoke you, robtgore, at least one of the major parties, currently HM opposition, have already set out their stall on the future society they wish to see.
It is predicated upon a multicultural, free-loading, gerrymandered, 1984/Animal Farm reverse democracy in which the rich are soaked to provide ever more succour to the ever-growing legions of the 'needy' and 'deserving', whilst they heap ever more riches upon themselves and ever more debt on the declining contributing workers and their unfortunate, because already bankrupt, offspring.Ìý I don't supppose for a moment that Labour have said anything remotely like the above, so presumably this is just your personal spin on what they are proposing? -
Message 40
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
What are your views on gay marriage, Rawsie? Dave and Gideon are all for it.Ìý You are wecome to start another thread on this very subject, hoddles dear, and you will then discover whether I wish to respond. In the meantime, please don't try to disrupt this thread in your usual fashion!
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Message 41
Posted by petal jam (U1466691) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
>>in which the rich are soaked to provide ever more succour to the ever-growing legions of the 'needy' and 'deserving'<<
If this is true [your vision, not mine] then how was it that during the recent decade of Labour government, the gap between rich and poor actually widened?
Oddly enough, the idea that the rich will provide for the huddled masses appears to me to be all top down laissez fair capitalism. How else would the rich still exist? -
Message 42
Posted by Aunty Rose (U14288414) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Deeds speak louder than words, Johnny!
WunNuLaBor said lots of things but most turned out to be untrue! -
Message 43
Posted by Surabaya Johnny (U1163609) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Deeds speak louder than words, Johnny!Ìý
But being in opposition, they're not actually in a position to do anything!
WunNuLaBor said lots of things but most turned out to be untrue!Ìý What on earth is "WunNuLaBor"? -
Message 44
Posted by robtgore (U15575703) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
I am not easily provoked. Orwell and Huxley together wrote their masterpieces as warnings to humanity, but since theirs were the only coherent maps of the future, however scary, we find ourselves drifting into their fictional nightmare scenarios by default.
More than inequality, or any other social issues, or even international conflicts, we have a leadership vacuum. No one is expressing a compelling better vision of the future that we can plan for and work towards. So as long as we are not doing any policy even hinted at or listed in Mein Kampf, like improving genetics for example, we stagger on from crisis to crisis tinkering with minor issues to avoid facing the fact that as a society we are lost, have no map, and not even an agreement as to how to choose the destination, let alone having chosen one and be cooperatively working towards it.
We are at a stage in scientific and technological history at which we can choose multiple futures, we could produce wealth and happiness beyond our wildest dreams, but we are stuck with politicians and commentators and broadcasters with little closed minds, who deny access to the few great minds we have, and endlessly promote and praise the banal and the trivial, from yesterday's men.
Recently I heard Buckminster Fuller mentioned on R4, but he was born in the 1890s or thereabouts! Our education is failing us on such a scale that our leaders will bankrupt and destroy the whole planet in a few more decades. Where did it all go wrong??? -
Message 45
Posted by FowPah (U1746998) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Bucky Balls.
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Message 46
Posted by hoddles off into the sunset (U14129169) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Whilst I would not seek to provoke you, robtgore, at least one of the major parties, currently HM opposition, have already set out their stall on the future society they wish to see.
It is predicated upon a multicultural, free-loading, gerrymandered, 1984/Animal Farm reverse democracy in which the rich are soaked to provide ever more succour to the ever-growing legions of the 'needy' and 'deserving', whilst they heap ever more riches upon themselves and ever more debt on the declining contributing workers and their unfortunate, because already bankrupt, offspring.Ìý Do you have a link to all (or even any) of this absurd nonsense, Rawsie? -
Message 47
Posted by Tomas_Bosque (U2631536) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
It must be terribly frustrating to be someone like the OP (who, incidentally, would seem to be using a name that does not conform with the Trade Descriptions Act) when they only have sites like The Bull on which to vent their spleen.
UKIP, meanwhile, is now trying to demonstrate that it can be just as disharmonious as the Tories - only without the power:
By the way, this is from someone who's worked for 48 years in the private sector (apart from 3 years at a Russell Group university, with additional income generated from temporary jobs), over half of which were spent in another EU country, and don't think that I was cheap labour by any means. -
Message 48
Posted by Tomas_Bosque (U2631536) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
Oh! Looking at that link re UKIP, I've suddently noticed who Nigel Farage really is:
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Message 49
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
It must be terribly frustrating to be someone like the OP (who, incidentally, would seem to be using a name that does not conform with the Trade Descriptions Act) when they only have sites like The Bull on which to vent their spleen.
UKIP, meanwhile, is now trying to demonstrate that it can be just as disharmonious as the Tories - only without the power:
By the way, this is from someone who's worked for 48 years in the private sector (apart from 3 years at a Russell Group university, with additional income generated from temporary jobs), over half of which were spent in another EU country, and don't think that I was cheap labour by any means.
Ìý
Never got your hands dirty then Tom? -
Message 50
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Wednesday, 6th February 2013
"Stunned jobseeker finds vacancy for a workman advertised entirely in POLISH
The advertisement called for a labourer to work at Docklands, London
It had been posted onto the Jobcentre Plus website
The Department for Work and Pensions said it has now been removed
The advertised wages were also below minimum pay"
Read more:
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