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Posted by RichTeabiscuit (U2000482) on Tuesday, 12th February 2013
Incredibly it is twenty years ago today that those two evil b*s led that poor little lad away from his mother and on to what must have been an awful, terrified death. Just been listening to an interview with Jamie's father Ralph on R4, and the poor guy still blames himself for it all these years later. He will not forgive himself for not looking after Jamie himself on that day.
I remember weeping buckets at the time; my lad was just over a year old then and whenever I saw those grainy CCTV images of him being led away, all I could see was my boy in his place. I could not begin to imagine what his parents were going through.
I am not ashamed to say that listening to this morning's interview has brought tears all over again.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by CC Growing old disgracefully (U13344869) on Tuesday, 12th February 2013
Yes I saw an interview with James Mother on TV this morning. She spoke tenderly about James but still feel unable to forgive the boys who killed her son.
James would be early 20s and grown up. As his Mum said she would not know his interests or what career he would be in or looking for.
This incident over 20 years ago still has been feeling very emotional as I am sure that it does for many others.
She also commented that she felt justice had not been done as the boys involved had only been in a young offenders institute not prison for this crime.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by Mermaid the Knitter and Bear Restorer (U15064923) on Tuesday, 12th February 2013
And what sort of life had those boys had up to then?
I don't condone what they did, but I do feel we need to understand their background. I don't go along with the idea of 'evil' children.
It should all be seen in context of the full picture.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Tuesday, 12th February 2013
They were only children themselves.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 4.
Posted by RichTeabiscuit (U2000482) on Tuesday, 12th February 2013
I well remember the arguments at the time, "they're only kids, they don't know the difference between right and wrong". OK well if that's the case, why did they lie about their involvement when first questioned? Everyone who's got kids will know that the first thing a child of that age does when confronted with something, from a broken ornament to a set of muddy footprints on a polished floor, is to say "it wasn't me". Hell, I remember doing it myself. It wasn't me, it was the dog/a breeze/aliens. So they obviously know it's wrong and are trying to deny responsibility in order to avoid the consequences.
How, in the name of all logic, would they *not* know that what they did -- rubbing paint in the kid's eyes, beating him, throwing bricks at his head and leaving his dead body on a railway line so that it'd look like an accident -- was wrong? I really cannot understand the argument.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
Nobody is born evil in my book.Some people are brought up in bad places and do bad things.But even those brought up well can commit crimes but those that do at a young age have to be treated with some leniency.Other societies do and benefit from it.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
From what I have read, they were subjected to hard core pornography and violence on the television. How does a child who has seen that know what is right and wrong?
I do know what you're saying and it's very hard to not feel anger and bitterness about such a truly awful crime but I don't think it's as straightforward as that.
My heart goes out to Denise and Ralph Bulger, how they will ever find peace in this life is beyond me.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
From all the reports one of these two boys does not seem to have benfited much from his incarcaration and no doubt attempted rehabilitation at our expense
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
That's true Bryan. But what's the alternative? I wouldn't like to live in a society where we reveal people's identities and leave the baying mob to decide their fate.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
I heard the beginning of the interview this morning and had to give up on it, i brings it back too vividly. Maybe it was because of those pictures of Jamie going off with the two boys, and all the detail that we heard, more than we usually get with stories of child abducton.
This upset me a lot at the time and I read as much as I could about it all including about the two boys. They di d have a bad start, and I doubt they learned (by example) enough to have fully absorbed where you draw the line. I gather at least one of them watched violent things on tv a lot. Also I know very well that young boys, certainly when a bit younger than those two but then those two were probably not as emotionally developed as other boys of their age - can be very violent towards other kids including siblings, and have to be dragged away from fights etc. until they grow up and learn that you just do not behave like that.
Prison would not have been suitable for such young children, and they needed a lot of help to turn their lives around. It's very sad that one of them has found it so difficult.
A terrible loss for Denise and Ralph but I do wish she was now able to let it go at least from the point of view of the two boys - of course the sadness of her loss will never quite go away.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
Such a tragic case. I can't believe it's 20 years ago.
Denise and Ralph Bulger will never get over this.
Neither will the boys.
Interesting similar case in Norway
Very different reactions to ours
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 7.
Posted by The final throes of Geek The Amazing Dogboy (U1759005) on Tuesday, 12th February 2013
My heart goes out to Denise and Ralph Bulger, how they will ever find peace in this life is beyond me. Â
That to me, is now the real tragedy.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 12.
Posted by RichTeabiscuit (U2000482) on Tuesday, 12th February 2013
Yes. Add to this the fact that Ralph Bulger still blames himself for it. Loss *and* self-loathing, it must be almost too much to bear at times.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
Very interesting article, Lucretzia. If only it were the same here.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 13.
Posted by fairy hedgehog (U1485678) on Tuesday, 12th February 2013
Yes. Add to this the fact that Ralph Bulger still blames himself for it. Loss *and* self-loathing, it must be almost too much to bear at times.Â
I'm listening to the repeat now. Poor man.
fh
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
20 years, eh? At least those inclined can still morbidly mull over the details of the horror during their tea time until it's time for Antiques Road Trip.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 16.
Posted by RichTeabiscuit (U2000482) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
That's fairly typical of the things i'm not going to miss about this place.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 17.
Posted by Lemon Sabotage (U9577550) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
Seconded, RichTea.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 11.
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
Interesting article about the Norway story. (Extraordinary detail about the father of the dead girl having the killer sat on his knee when he heard that he was the one who had done it.)
Actually, thinking about this story (I think the Bulgar one was more 'premeditated' somehow, and therefore different) I'm surprised such things don't happen more often. Children can be vicious and violent. My own 4 year old nephew has temper tantrums that are astonishing to behold. Last one I saw he almost threw himself through a plate glass door. (He most certainly would have done if he'd been heavy enough/the door weak enough.) He doesn't come from an abused background - has, on the contrary, perhaps even too much love and attention in his life. (Spoilt wee brat, oops, did I say that out loud, bAdwummin Campbell!) I can imagine a scenario like the one in the Norwegian case where a playmate could possibly end up dead.
There have always been stories of siblings being caught trying to kill new babies (how many cot deaths have actually been smotherings by jealous siblings?) Small children are uncivilised horrors - the job of the parents is to civilise them. Most manage. Eventually. Some miss some tiny incident before the civilising process is completed and in such cases tragedies can occur. Sad, but not completely incomprehensible. (I repeat, I'm referring to the Norwegian example, not the Bulger one, where the children were older and had other issues.)
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 4.
Posted by londonplug (U13638089) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
They were only children themselves. REPLY............... Exactly,,,,, all the more reason they should have been executed
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
They were only children themselves. REPLY............... Exactly,,,,, all the more reason they should have been executed OMG
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 9.
Posted by londonplug (U13638089) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
That's true Bryan. But what's the alternative? I wouldn't like to live in a society where we reveal people's identities and leave the baying mob to decide their fate.Â
That's true Bryan. But what's the alternative? I wouldn't like to live in a society where we reveal people's identities and leave the baying mob to decide their fate.
REPLY.................. And why on earth not What choice did the allow poor Jamiie bulger to decide his "fate" or was Jamie Bulger the only criminal involved in this case????You would certainly think so the way the "bleeding heart liberals" are more worried about the welfare of his "poor" "vunerable" Violent butchers
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 22.
Posted by Asparagus (U15510902) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
"the way the "bleeding heart liberals" are more worried about the welfare of his "poor" "vunerable" Violent butchers"
Or maybe, just maybe, they are concerned about maintaining a civilised society. One which is not subject to mob rule. Or one where a state-sanctioned death penalty makes the citizen a murderer by proxy.
And for what it's worth, the murdered child's parents never called him Jamie. He was James.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
I was newly pregnant and I remember it vividly too. That image of little James with milk around his mouth. Heartbreaking. Then thinking what happened to him on the way to his death when people *could* have bluddy helped him. Then the way he died - I can't bear to think about that.
His poor parents. They are stuck in a nightmare. I wouldn't want to live.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 23.
Posted by Lemon Sabotage (U9577550) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
Indeed, like the way Madeleine McCann inexplicably became "Maddie" in some newspapers...who knows why?--she was Madeleine to her family.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
I heard the interview last night, and was overwhelmed with the remembered saddness and horror. My eldest was almost exactly the same age as Jamie Bulger and I remember it all so well, truly, truly awful. I feel so sorry for the poor man, nothing can be said to console him.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
Bizarrely, the thing that still makes me shudder about this case 20 years on is not the actual killing itself, but the premeditation of the act, the length of time between the abduction and the acts of extreme violence and finally, the calculated way that they tried to deny what they'd done after being caught.
In between abducting James Bulger and torturing and killing him, Thompson and Venables had a very long time to think about what they were going to do. Plenty of time to back out of any plan that they had. Time during which they had hold of a terrified, crying little boy who was begging for his mother.
To carry on travelling to the place they were going to take him, knowing what they were going to do and feeling unmoved enough to still carry on makes them sub-human in my eyes.
When they were caught and questioned, they continually used the phrase "Baby Jamie" in a way which, in my opinion, was expressly, slyly designed to convey the impression that they could never hurt someone that they considered a helpless baby. When confronted with the news that the police knew it was them, they each had the presence of mind to try to blame the other.
I don't agree with the argument that people cannot be born evil - when I was growing up I knew two brothers; both had the same upbringing with loving parents. One of them was a happy, pleasant person whilst the other was a violent thug who gloried in violence, eventually murdered at least one man and is currently serving a life sentence.
I fully realise that it isn't right for me to think this, but the fact is that if I heard that Thompson and/or Venables had been found dead, my reaction would be to think "Good!"
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 27.
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
I agree with so much of what you say.
I believe some people *are* born evil. I know of a young man who went to school with our eldest son. This boy is from a loving home with siblings who are perfectly normal, yet he had killed two people before he was sixteen. There is nothing about his background or upbringing that could explain what he'd done.
The boys who murdered James Bulger did have dreadful lives, but that is no excuse, they most certainly knew what they were about to do was wrong. They planned it. Any normal child wouldn't even want to hurt an animal let alone a fellow human being. Didn't they have history of torturing birds and animals?
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 27.
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
>>>both had the same upbringing with loving parents. One of them was a happy, pleasant person whilst the other was a violent thug who gloried in violence, <<<
I found my self looking at my nephews, 2 years apart in age, the other day and thinking much the same thing.
I'm trying to remember the name of a film I saw a few years ago which was (loosely based) on a similar story. It was about a rather nice young man who was starting a new life in a new town. Gradually it came out that he was someone who had been put away as a child killer, similar in age to the boys who killed Bulger. Very confrontational. It's really annoying me that I can't recall the title. Possible about 5 years ago - I saw the film in a filmhouse, Scottish setting? Anyone any clues?
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 28.
All this user's posts have been removed.
, in reply to message 23.
Posted by londonplug (U13638089) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
Or maybe, just maybe, they are concerned about maintaining a civilised society. One which is not subject to mob rule. Or one where a state-sanctioned death penalty makes the citizen a murderer by proxy.
REPLY............. How can you ever create a "civilised society" when the left continues with the policy of spending billions of pounds worth of taxpayers money on a gravy train Pampering "supporting " and rewarding people like that ????
"Vunerable"????? my backside they are
How much taxpayers money i ssquandered around this word "vunerable" ???
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 28.
All this user's posts have been removed.
, in reply to message 29.
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
found it with a bit of googling. Boy A.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 30.
Posted by What larks (U14260755) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
Born evil? No.Â
It is quite possible that some people's genetic make-up makes them predisposed to violence, even planned violence. Is so, are they to be vilified for something they can't help?
I think most aggressive children learn how to control their behabiour, but it can take some time. You could argue that these two 10 year olds never had a proper chance to do that before the genes took over.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 32.
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
>>>Most kids torment animals at some point.<<<
No. Most kids don't.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 31.
Posted by RichTeabiscuit (U2000482) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
REPLY............. How can you ever create a "civilised society" when the left continues with the policy of spending billions of pounds worth of taxpayers money on a gravy train Pampering "supporting " and rewarding people like that ????Â
Partisan politics has a time and a place and plenty of suitable threads. Just for once, could we please try to keep it out of this one? Parties of all sides have been failing victims and criminals alike for years.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
You don't know everything about his background.
Most kids torment animals at some point.Â
They don't, they really don't.
It's proven that children who are cruel to animals are much more likely to go on to commit violent crimes. A lack of empathy with dogs and cats is not a trait I would encourage in a child.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 30.
Posted by Shirley Knott (U14164156) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
Born evil? No.Â
Born evil - maybe not /born/ evil, but I believe there is actually a fairly brief window of time in which to shape the child. Miss it and the opportunity is gone forever. Probably only a couple of years at most. My daughter studied it quite extensively.
I believe we are terrified as a species to admit that it could be a natural thing to be evil - consequently we try again and again and again to rehabilitate and understand, sometimes with devastating consequences. The alternative is just too much to contemplate.
Whilst I don't think the two boys who killed James should have had the death penalty, I certainly think they should still be inside, and for many more years yet.
The whole, huge system grinds into action to help the perpetrator. Heaven help the victim's family and friends though.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
Born evil - maybe not /born/ evil, but I believe there is actually a fairly brief window of time in which to shape the child. Miss it and the opportunity is gone forever. Probably only a couple of years at most. My daughter studied it quite extensively.
Really? I know learning is very important very early on but morality?
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 32.
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
You don't know everything about his background.
Most kids torment animals at some point.Â
No they don't! Good grief, I don't know what sort of kids you know!
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
Maybe 'Born Evil' isn't the best way of phrasing it, but I do think that there is always something in a person's nature which steers them to do certain things.
There is a family close to mine who have a 4 year old son and another, younger child. I am close enough to them to know that they are a very loving family; the parents spend a lot of quality time with the children and both of them couldn't fail to know that they are very loved.
The 4 year old worries me a lot. He has what can only be described as a sadistic streak and basically, he enjoys inflicting pain on other children. Not only that, he is extremely clever and cunning - he works out how he can hurt other children and effectively get away with it. He has hurt several children that I know of, including my own.
This behaviour has not been nurtured - his parents aren't violent (he is never smacked) and his younger sibling is a smashing, gentle kid.
I am genuinely worried about how this boy is going to grow up and what he is going to be capable of when he is older. I am not the only person who has noticed this - 3 other people have spoken to me about him and made exactly the same, very specific observations about his behaviour, including his ability to manoeuvre himself into a position to hurt someone and make it look like it was not intended.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by shulascat (U14737252) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
The child's name was James. Please don't add a familiarity you do not have by changing it to the cuddlier Jamie. His own parents never did.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 42.
Posted by RichTeabiscuit (U2000482) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
The child's name was James. Please don't add a familiarity you do not have by changing it to the cuddlier Jamie. His own parents never did.Â
Christ, that told me eh? Sorry for any offence I'm sure. If you bothered to actually read my post #1 you'd notice that the whole point was the memory of the shock it caused at the time, given the fact that I also had a very young son back then, and sadness at how his father is still failing to come to terms with what he sees as his own part in JAMES' death (better?), and nothing whatsoever to do with taking possession of any kind of 'familiarity'.
Also, your point was made by another poster -- in a far less condescending manner, I might add -- over an hour ago.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 43.
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
I would think that the least of this unfortunate family's worries is whether people call their child James or Jamie.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
The child's name was James. Please don't add a familiarity you do not have by changing it to the cuddlier Jamie. His own parents never did.Â
You're quite right, they didn't.
However, it was hardly Richteabiscuit that started referring to the victim as 'Jamie' was it? It has been happening since 1993, when the police were referring to him by that name, as were his killers.
In fact they made the name even cuddlier by prefixing it with the word 'Baby', in an attempt to try to make themselves sound too innocent to have even contemplated abducting, torturing and finally killing an infant.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 40.
Posted by What larks (U14260755) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
You don't know everything about his background.
Most kids torment animals at some point.Â
No they don't! Good grief, I don't know what sort of kids you know!Â
A lot of children do things like pulling wings off flies and killing harmless insects like butterflies. They often stop though if someone tells them it is cruel.
I'm dead sure most children who want to bully other children have the sense to do it when their parents or other grown ups are around. Quite a few are pretty astonished to learn what their darlings get up to out of sight!
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 46.
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
I think you missed a 'not' somewhere in that post. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.
I see we've gone down from 'most' to 'a lot' of children doing nasty stuff to animals now. Well that's nice. Myself, I was more likely to beat anyone up I saw being bad to animals. Though actually the only incident I can clearly remember right now is a lassie across the road stamping on ants. I pushed her over to stop her murderous activities (and probably told her she was a nasty wee get, can't recall the exact dialogue).
I still get into discussions with folk I think aren't treating animals properly. (I don't push them over any more, you may be pleased to hear.) Last one was with a young man with a young dog running beside his bike. I stopped to ask how old it was as you really shouldn't have them doing this sort of repetitive exercise before they're at least a year or you have a chance of them wearing their hips out. And this was a german shepherd, specially vulnerable in this area.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 46.
Posted by LoopyLobes (U14384399) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
Well, I know damned well that when I was a kid I would have been really upset if I saw anyone doing that sort of things. My kids are the same.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 47.
Posted by What larks (U14260755) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
I think you missed a 'not' somewhere in that post. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Â
Thanks, I did! It applies to children doing anything they know their parents will disapprove of; bullying other kids, cruelty to animals...they will do it when no-one can see!
I'm pretty sure I wasn't always very nice to some other children, though I wasn't knowingly cruel to animals so far as I can remember. I certainly did other things my mother never knew about and would have sworn was "out of character"
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
, in reply to message 42.
Posted by Auntie Molly (U14110968) on Wednesday, 13th February 2013
The child's name was James. Please don't add a familiarity you do not have by changing it to the cuddlier Jamie. His own parents never did. The same thing happened with Madeleine McCann. The tabloids started referring to her as Maddie even though her parents never did.
Link to this forum: Jamie Bulger -- 20 years ago today -- lest we forget
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