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Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
..to send to butcher.
What do you think of this?
As someone who doesn't eat farmed meats as a rule, uncomfortable.
I think that if anyone, adult or child, eats meat they should know where that meat comes from so that part is good. It is also important that animals should be raised humanely and be well looked after so I like that bit too.
My problem is the thought of when the time comes those little ones are going to be in absolute bits because they're bound to become very fond of the pigs.
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by Lady Trudie Tilney Glorfindel Maldini (U2222312) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
They're very cute!
It seems a reasonable idea.
My children's primary was, in pre- and post-war days, a school for the somewhat less academic in the town, and had its own small farm.
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by TooManyPosts (U2440869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
I've no problem with the idea. It is easy to divorce the meat from the animal, if you see what I mean.
From the article:
"We've discussed that we're going to feel very sad," she said. "But they've all said 'we like eating sausages'."Â
If a class field trip to a slaughter house was organised some might change their minds. Not all though. Plenty of people can be pragmatic about these things.
I think Hugh F-W has been very good at getting people to accept that if they eat meat they really ought to understand how the whole food chain works.
, in reply to message 3.
Posted by Hertz van Rentl (U4936703) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
I think that if anyone, adult or child, eats meat they should know where that meat comes from so that part is good. It is also important that animals should be raised humanely and be well looked after so I like that bit too.
My problem is the thought of when the time comes those little ones are going to be in absolute bits because they're bound to become very fond of the pigs. Â
Agree with you on all points, Mrs PPG. But I have a shrewd suspicion that selling these particular pigs life insurance would probably be a fairly safe investment.
Oh Hertz that's reminded me of Monty Halls raising two pigs on Barra (I think? It was one of the Western Isles anyway) for a ´óÏó´«Ã½ documentary. He grew so fond of them that he ended up paying out of his own pocket what they would have earned if they'd been slaughtered!
I always liked him after that.
, in reply to message 8.
Posted by Lady Trudie Tilney Glorfindel Maldini (U2222312) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
If that happened at this particular school I would think the parents would be up in arms at the appalling inconsistency adults can sometimes demonstrate.
I know you're right. But I know I am appallingly two faced about the whole issue.
, in reply to message 7.
Posted by The final throes of Geek The Amazing Dogboy (U1759005) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
My problem is the thought of when the time comes those little ones are going to be in absolute bits because they're bound to become very fond of the pigs. Â
I've probably told this story before but anyway....
I have a friend who as a child lived in a house that backed on to a farmer's field used to rear sheep. Over the course of one spring he became very attached to one of the lambs and named him Tommy. Tommy became a pet to him and my friend would look forward to coming home from school to play with him.
On coming home one afternoon his mother told him that the farmer who owned the field had a treat for him. And there laid in front of him for his tea were, as his mother so wonderfully put it, "Tommy chops".
He's never eaten meat since.
, in reply to message 3.
Posted by Morty Vicar (U2247272) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
I think that if anyone, adult or child, eats meat they should know where that meat comes from so that part is good. It is also important that animals should be raised humanely and be well looked after so I like that bit too.Â
I agree with that. Plus, if those children take to yearning after pets of any kind, they'll know beforehand that keeping an animal isn't just the play and cuddles, it's also the physical care, mucking out etc.
My problem is the thought of when the time comes those little ones are going to be in absolute bits because they're bound to become very fond of the pigs.Â
Well, if that's so, the more fools they, or their parents and teachers. When I was very young I was under no illusion that the rabbits I saw my granny weren't the same ones that I'd fed greens to in their hutches; so I never had any such trauma, but on the contrary was grateful that they'd died for my benefit.
(BTW, if you'll pardon the levity, that's an unfortunate turn of phrase: it's the pigs that end up in bits!)
, in reply to message 12.
Posted by Morty Vicar (U2247272) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
Sorry!
"... that I saw my granny skin, butcher and cook ..."
, in reply to message 10.
Posted by The Giddy Kipper (U10918464) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
I think it's OK I suppose but I don't see how it achieves most of what it claims to want to. They will learn where sausages one from but they could learn that visiting a farm or following the food chain in another way, but I guess they are learning to look after animals but unless they watch the pigs being slaughtered, butchered and the sausages being made then I think its only a quarter of a lesson.
This isn't how most pigs are raised for meat, so what are they learning about the food industry by this? It's like Gordon Ramsey putting 2 pigs in his back garden and getting his kids to feed them organic food and beer and waving them off as they are taken to slaughter by one smiley man in a small trailer.....not really representative. Take them to an industrial pig unit with thousands of pigs crammed together getting skin sores and chewing each other, watch them getting herded into lorries by people thrashing them with metal bars and show them hundreds of pigs being haphazardly strung up and killed and let them stand ankle deep in blood and guts and then see what they think about sausages.........
, in reply to message 14.
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
That's a valid point, GK, but as children (and adults) can be so totally divorced from the realities of eating animal products, I do wonder whether this project might be worthwhile, as long as it was represented truly, as a "best case scenario", and used to make the children more responsive to the real issues of animal welfare, and educating them (and perhaps their parents?) that cheap food can have a high price in animal suffering? Maybe this is just a good start?
, in reply to message 15.
Posted by Lady Trudie Tilney Glorfindel Maldini (U2222312) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
Agreed carrick - a quarter lesson is better than no lesson at all surely.
, in reply to message 15.
Posted by The Giddy Kipper (U10918464) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
No, I agree with the principle of this, but unless you see or fully understand a 'worse case scenario' a best case one has no meaningful context......all they can be learning about the realities of animal products is that pork comes from pigs, not much else.
, in reply to message 17.
Posted by Lady Trudie Tilney Glorfindel Maldini (U2222312) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
Well that's a start....I would hazard a guess that many children do not know that sausages come from pigs.
, in reply to message 17.
Posted by The final throes of Geek The Amazing Dogboy (U1759005) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
No, I agree with the principle of this, but unless you see or fully understand a 'worse case scenario' a best case one has no meaningful context......all they can be learning about the realities of animal products is that pork comes from pigs, not much else. Â
Teach them both then. Teaching only the worst case scenario will just mean that kids will come to accept this as normal and cheap processed crap will just continue.
, in reply to message 14.
Posted by _ShropshireLad_ (U10844552) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
This isn't how most pigs are raised for meat, so what are they learning about the food industry by this? It's like Gordon Ramsey putting 2 pigs in his back garden and getting his kids to feed them organic food and beer and waving them off as they are taken to slaughter by one smiley man in a small trailer.....not really representative. Take them to an industrial pig unit with thousands of pigs crammed together getting skin sores and chewing each other, watch them getting herded into lorries by people thrashing them with metal bars and show them hundreds of pigs being haphazardly strung up and killed and let them stand ankle deep in blood and guts and then see what they think about sausages.........Â
The realisation and knowledge of which is more likely to make them concerned for animal welfare in the food industry, far more so from divorcing pigs from sausages, or milk from cows.
, in reply to message 17.
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
I duuno, GK - yes, to get the full picture, one would need to have knowledge of the full range of animal rearing and slaughtering practices, but do children need to be shown the "worst case scenario" in order to educate them and give them a chance of developing a set of acceptble ethics?
For example, I tried to teach my sons, as toddlers and small children, by example and consciously, that people, regardless of sex, race, colour, age etc. Showing them the worst consequences of racism and domestic violence, at that point in their lives, wouldn't have been useful, I think.
If children are taught how to look after animals well, even though they're for food not as pets, there is a chance that they may grow up to demand better conditions in abattoirs.
Bad treatment of animals is not a prerequisite of eating meat. As adults we should demand that animals are not transported long distances before slaughter.
Children brought up in the country know where their food comes from; we shouldn't deny the same knowledge to children in towns.
Agree, Judith.
It sounds a good scheme to me, very useful to learn a little about animal welfare and food production and where food comes from. Yes, some of the children are going to feel sentimental and squeamish about eating pork sausages - although I bet others will be very matter of fact and positively lip-smacking....
, in reply to message 10.
Posted by Lucretzia (U5974342) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
But I know I am appallingly two faced about the whole issueÂ
As am I.
And I think the whole idea is awful.
In my twenties I lived on a small holding in the Canaries. Few cows, goats, chickens and a pig.
I used to see 5 year olds wringing chicken's necks (quite expertly) for tea. Which I always refused to eat. But I could cope with that.
However when it came to my pig who I had come to love I was quite hysterical when his time had come. He was the most gorgeous creature. So friendly. Like a funny pink dog. He used to 'wag' his tail when I called his name.
Luckily my Spanish father in law quite liked me, and after witnessing a meltdown he decided to 'save his bacon' as such and my much adored pig lived to fight another day.
However I eat bacon and sausages and fully appreciate how ridiculous this whole story makes me sound.
I am so glad to meet someone who feels the same. I know we are daft/illogical but it's a character flaw I can live with!
Pigs are of a similar intelligence to dogs aren't they?
, in reply to message 21.
Posted by TooManyPosts (U2440869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
In reply to carrick-bend:
For example, I tried to teach my sons, as toddlers and small children, by example and consciously, that people, regardless of sex, race, colour, age etc. Showing them the worst consequences of racism and domestic violence, at that point in their lives, wouldn't have been useful, I think. Â
What if they were doing something that was indirectly contributing to racism but they had no real emotional connection with that fact?
I've heard that they're rated 4th in overall intelligence behind chimps, dolphins and elephants. They have the intelligence of a 3 year-old child and enjoy playing with balls. On an individual basis, however, it is possible for a particular dog to be more intelligent than a particular pig.
, in reply to message 26.
Posted by The final throes of Geek The Amazing Dogboy (U1759005) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
Pigs are of a similar intelligence to dogs aren't they? Â
Isn't a pig's IQ equivalent to that of a 3 year old child? As Churchill said" Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals".
, in reply to message 24.
Posted by The Giddy Kipper (U10918464) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
>However I eat bacon and sausages and fully appreciate how ridiculous this whole story makes me sound.<
i don't think its ridiculous, even though it is ( if you see what I mean...) I think it just makes you sound fairly normal. We are all inconsistent in our beliefs and behaviour, we have to be just to get along in the world without going loopy. The more dangerous and slightly scary thing is when people don't realise it, i think.
And carrick, I agree. I would definitely not want to see primary school age children ( or any school age children or young people, I think) visiting an industrial pig unit or slaughterhouse. I saw some that did and the awful affect it had on some of them did not justify what they learnt from it, particularly as they were not very well prepared for it.The fact that it is so distressing is the point in itself, and you can't 'unsee' things.
, in reply to message 27.
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
What if they were doing something that was indirectly contributing to racism but they had no real emotional connection with that fact? Â
Could you give an example to me, please, Cucumber, that would be relevant to children of primary school age?
What do you think of this?Â
Ridiculous molly-coddling of the little Jemimas and Quentins: "sending them to a local butcher"? They should either be slaughtered by the children themselves ar at the very least by the teacher in front of the children.
, in reply to message 32.
Posted by The final throes of Geek The Amazing Dogboy (U1759005) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
They should either be slaughtered by the children themselves ar at the very least by the teacher in front of the children. Â
They should only be allowed to use the contents of their pencil cases to carry out the slaughter. It would be a good way to get them thinking outside the box.
, in reply to message 33.
Posted by The Giddy Kipper (U10918464) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
Do children have pencil cases any more? They could maybe download a pig-killing app or summat.
OR they could all go and live on an island in the middle of a pond with the pigs and see who's left alive after 2 months.......
, in reply to message 31.
Posted by TooManyPosts (U2440869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
In reply to carrick-bend:
Could you give an example to me, please, Cucumber, that would be relevant to children of primary school age? Â
I cannot think of anything most primary school children would do that would have a sufficient enough connection to "the worst consequences of racism and domestic violence" so that you could say something like "this is what you are doing results in".
Though they may behave in ways that are the first rung of the ladder. Such as picking on an ethnic minority kid with jibes about skin colour, perhaps.
Unless if the parents are forcing them to, then the child eating and enjoying their sausages has a connection to the slaughter of the previous owner of the meat.
I was just wondering whether you would make a distinction between showing a child something unpleasant when they are contributing to it but may not have made the connection, and showing them the unpleasant thing for the sake of general informing about the things that people can do to others.
, in reply to message 33.
Posted by TooManyPosts (U2440869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
In reply to Geek The Amazing Dogboy:
They should only be allowed to use the contents of their pencil cases to carry out the slaughter. It would be a good way to get them thinking outside the box. Â
I think that killing a pig with a staple gun or a sharpened pencil would not really be close enough to an actual slaughter that kills the pig in a lot less time and less painfully. It might just make a person agree that killing in a prolonged and cruel manner is not on, and so it should be done quickly and with stunning instead.
You can stun them with a protractor.
, in reply to message 35.
Posted by Pan Mustardland is where the heart is Shoshana (U14836935) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
Various primary schools grow vegetables, then cook them.
My children's school have had chickens. And been visited by sheep. I know of one that has grown salad commercially. All to teach where food comes from.
Peasenhall school is fairly local to us, in that it is in my county and while I don't know it personally, it seems to me that children need to understand about food production - as a small school in a rural area they are in a position to do this well.
, in reply to message 36.
Posted by _ShropshireLad_ (U10844552) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
I think that killing a pig with a staple gun or a sharpened pencil would not really be close enough to an actual slaughter that kills the pig in a lot less time and less painfully. It might just make a person agree that killing in a prolonged and cruel manner is not on, and so it should be done quickly and with stunning instead. Â
Hmm, just you try killing a pig with a staple gun and see what happens. And remember that primary school children are themselves around about pig snack size.
Hmm, just you try killing a pig with a staple gun and see what happens. And remember that primary school children are themselves around about pig snack sizeÂ
Yes, but the pigs won't have access to staple guns, so it's all heavily weighted in favour of the children.
, in reply to message 34.
Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
>>OR they could all go and live on an island in the middle of a pond with the pigs and see who's left alive after 2 months.......<<
'Lord of the Pigsties'
, in reply to message 41.
Posted by carrick-bend (U2288869) on Wednesday, 20th February 2013
I suppose it hardly matters, trying to keep on topic now -
It could be another "mythical beast" SL, "The Creature from the Poo Lagoon".
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