Category: News
Date: 07.10.2005
Printable version
Panorama this Sunday (9 October, 大象传媒 ONE, 10.20pm) examines the Government's plans for new laws to counter the terrorist threat following the London bombings and asks whether the UK needs new legislation.
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Ahead of debate this autumn in the Commons, two eminent Law Lords have spoken to Panorama about the Bill and why they believe it is flawed.
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Lord Steyn of Swafield, a former Law Lord, in his first interview since his retirement last month, tells the 大象传媒's Panorama that in his view this new power to detain suspects for up to three months for questioning prior to charge is going to be found to be unlawful.
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"In my view this new power is likely to be found incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. Article 5 (3) is quite explicit.
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"It says in peremptory language that any person who is detained or is arrested must be brought before a court promptly - and in my view a period exceeding 14 days will be found to be in breach of that Human Rights safeguard."
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Lord Steyn adds: "Experience shows that Governments frequently ask for more powers than they need and when they get those powers they abuse them from time to time."
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Commenting on the Government's proposal (15 September) of a new offence of glorification of terrorism, Lord Steyn says this would also have been unlawful: "In particular I draw attention to the width of this proposal: that will found to be far too excessive and it will be found to be in breach of Human Rights law and in particular of Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
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"We live in a country that Voltaire called 'the country of liberty': isn't that being endangered?"
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Law Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, carried out the Inquiry into terrorist legislation at the request of the Conservative Government in 1995-6 - a report which formed part of the basis for the legislation in the Labour Government's 2000 Terrorism Act.
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He says of the original clause in the draft of 15 September on glorification of terrorism: "It says that a person commits an offence if he glorifies, exalts, or celebrates an act of terrorism whether in the past or in the future.
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"Now to me that is a very odd provision. I have never seen anything like it in an Act of Parliament. And I pity the poor judge who's going to have to explain those words to a jury. Glorify, there again glorify, exalt or celebrate.
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"Presumably they all mean something different otherwise you wouldn't have three words instead of one, somebody in the Home Office must have thought they mean something different.
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"But how is a judge going to explain the difference between those three things?"
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On the subject of detention for up to three months prior to charge, Lord Lloyd says: "It begins to look, I'm afraid to say, a little like internment. And it would certainly be seen that way by some of the ethnic minorities.
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"Fancy being kept for three months without being charged. Being questioned notionally and not being charged. I think that myself is intolerable.
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"And I well remember when I was writing my report I was visited by two very, very senior members of the Labour Party, one of whom has a very, very senior position in government now, who said whatever you do don't recommend internment."
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"I cannot see how a man can be questioned about something that he has done for a period as long as three months."
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"I think the Government would be much better advised to try and persuade people that the threat is a limited one. And that's the message really which the Government ought to get across instead of seeking to gain some political advantage.
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"By in a sense stirring up the fear and then saying well this is what we're going to do about it by legislating here there and everywhere. And I think that's in a sense irresponsible."
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Speaking on Thursday 6 October in response to the Government's revisions to the bill Lord Lloyd told Panorama: "It is just how not to legislate on a matter as important as terrorism because the original draft bill was introduced less than a month ago and was intended to form the basis of a debate in the House of Commons this month and now before the ink is even dry on that bill, we've got amendments.
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"The fundamental difficulty remains that we're trying to create a criminal offence out of something which is just too vague and too uncertain."
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Panorama: Blair v Blair questions how the Government's plans for new laws to counter the terrorist threat will make us safer, and assesses the cost in terms of civil liberties.
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The Blairs themselves know how difficult it is to strike a balance.
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This is Tony Blair, on 5 August 2005: "Let no-one be in any doubt, the rules of the game are changing."
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And this is Cherie Blair, speaking as a Human Rights lawyer, on 26 July 2005: "It is all too easy for us to respond to such terror in a way which undermines commitment to our most deeply held values and convictions and which cheapens our right to call ourselves a civilised nation."
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Panorama examines the subject which on paper has the Blairs at odds.
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The programme also talks to politicians, top lawyers and judges, and to individuals and groups who might be directly affected by the Government's new laws.
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Those interviewed in the programme also include: Moazzam Begg, who was detained without charge by the United States in Guantanamo Bay, and imprisoned for three years; and Lord Hurd, the former Conservative Home Secretary.
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The programme is a Mentorn Production for the 大象传媒. The reporter is Vivian White, the producer Andrew Macdonald.
