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'Something's been building in her for a very long time'

‘My daughter’s beautiful’, says Bethany. ‘She's very, very talented. She's become a mum to my two glorious grandchildren, and she is an uber mother. She's had a very complicated mental health journey since she was probably around 12, which makes where she is in her life now all the more astonishing.’

But the same daughter thinks Bethany is a monster.

‘I don't know if she genuinely believes that but it’s something that’s been building in her for a very long time – decades’, says Bethany. She remembers one particular incident.

‘She told me she has this memory of being on the Tube. We were on the way to the theatre. She must have been about nine. We were walking up the steps of the Tube and we were in a rush to get to the theatre because probably, as usual, I was late. And there was a, shall we say, Rubenesque woman in front of us and I made a personal comment about it.

‘She said the thought that struck her like a bolt of lightning was that: ‘Oh, my God, that's something else my mother is going to judge me about and I'm going to have to keep an eye on. I've got to constantly make sure I'm thin because that's something else my mother will be critical about’.

‘I’ve shared that with some of my closest girlfriends and I’ve said: ‘These are some of the things that I’ve said to my daughter that have had a horrible impact on her’, and their response has been: ‘Well, we've all said things like that. You live with it.’ And I've thought since they're right. But that doesn't make it right.’

Bethany recalls another incident which received a negative reaction from her daughter.

‘Not that long ago, after my grandson was born, I said: ‘You look really well, love’, and she heard: ‘You've put on weight. You're getting fat.’ She told me that's what she heard. But that wasn't what I said.

‘Consequently, I'm terribly sensitive about saying anything because somehow or another, between my mouth and her head, the intent has changed and it lands with a completely different message and I can't do anything about it. So, I've stopped saying things.’

‘I didn’t really understand that she didn’t want me there’

Bethany says that at the back of her mind she was always concerned that her daughter would stop her seeing her grandchildren. And then not long ago, she did.

'Things were really going downhill’, says Bethany. ‘They were spiralling out of control. I just couldn’t find a solution. She was starting to raise issues like: ‘You once did this’, and ‘You once did that’, which made me even more terrified about talking to her.’

Bethany finds it all very emotional to talk about, particularly describing how things deteriorated after her granddaughter was born.

‘My grandson came along, and our relationship really did seem to massively improve. I wanted to be useful for her. I thought: ‘This is good’.

‘I wanted to show her that I’d been a bit of a crap mum and I knew I had, but I was going to be a really good mum for her, but also be a wonderful grandmother, because I didn't have anything like that in my life. I thanked her once in a text saying: ‘You've made me a grandmother and it's the greatest thing’, and I also thought being a mum might help her understand no mum is perfect.

'Then she had my beautiful granddaughter. It never occurred to me that she might have a bit of postnatal depression. I did know she was grieving about her dad - her dad died while she was pregnant - but I was still doing what I thought were the right things to support her. I didn't really understand that she didn't want me there.’

'I was a selfish mum’

Looking back to when her daughter was younger, Bethany thinks that she was a ‘remote mum’.

‘I'm talking about physically remote rather than emotionally remote,’ says Bethany. ‘I was a selfish mum. It takes years, age and hindsight to look back and go: ‘I didn't do a very good job of that, did I?’

‘I knew that I loved being a mother and maybe I didn't show it. I was absent but I felt joy at being a mum.

'For a long time, her dad and I both put our relationship first and then as we became increasingly estranged, I put myself first. I didn't stop loving my children but I wanted to do what I wanted to do.’

Bethany says there were times when she would go away on holiday with her daughter’s father for about 10 days and leave their daughter behind with her grandparents.

‘He always felt couples need to have time together. We'd travel the world and do different things. And sometimes we'd thoughtlessly book them without thinking, ‘Is it the children's birthdays?’

‘Would I do it now? If they were that age now? No, I wouldn't. But we did. We both did. But I can understand why she's perhaps more angry with me about it. It’s this expectation that mothers are more thoughtful, I think.’

‘I realised there was something significant going on’

In January, Bethany received a letter and a book about how to identify a narcissistic mother from her daughter.

‘I'd looked after the children for a few hours on the weekend,’ says Bethany. ‘A week went by and I didn't hear anything. I then texted her and I didn't get a reply back from that. I realised there was something significant going on. I started to have this kind of terror.

‘I rang her after a week and I was upset. I just wanted to talk to her and say: ‘What's going on? We’ve got to a really bad place. How can we make it better?’ And she was really cold.

‘She said: ‘I started writing to you with a book. I've highlighted some bits in it that I think are how I feel about our relationship which I want you to read and then maybe you'll get an idea of why I feel the way I do’

‘Another couple of days went by and it arrived. When I saw the title, I felt like I'd been punched.

‘Am I a narcissist? Is this what this book is telling my daughter…. Is this true about me?’

‘I was horrified she felt that way’

Bethany picked up the letter and read it.

‘It wasn't really a letter,’ says Bethany. ‘There was no ‘Dear Mum’ or anything. It was it was almost like a stream of consciousness that she'd just poured out on four or five sheets of paper. It was cogent and it was articulate, and it was clearly heartfelt.

‘In it she said she had been full of grief for a long time. The moment my granddaughter was born, it made her start thinking about the damage I'd done to her, and she didn't want that damage inflicted on her own daughter.

‘She'd become friendly with a woman who told her about her challenges with her own mother. And that woman cut her mother out of her life, and she'd alerted my daughter to this book about recognising a narcissistic mother. So, she bought a copy of the book, and she went through the book, and the book resonated with her completely.’

Having read the letter, Bethany then looked at the passages of the book her daughter had highlighted.

‘I was horrified she felt that way. I thought, ‘My God, what have I done to my daughter to make her believe this about me? What a failure you are. Is this really who I am?’

One of the highlighted passages surprised Bethany.

‘My daughter is brilliant at DIY and I have said: ‘Oh, you're really good at that, you must get that from me’. It's always slightly tongue in cheek. It's always meant with levity, but that is perceived by her as being a narcissist and making it all about me and taking credit for all her skills. That really stuck with me.

‘We're growing apart and I'm worried about it. I'm looking for anything and everything that reinforces that we aren't strangers, we are connected. Your genes and my genes, there are more similarities between us than there are differences and I'm highlighting that by saying: ‘You get that from me’.

‘I'm absolutely not saying the only reason you've got that it's because I've given it to you. That's what comes across in that book and that is not what is intended, but I can see that that's not how it comes across.’

‘I want to be part of her life. But she’s got to want that too’

Since receiving the book, Bethany has asked herself if she’s a narcissist every day.

‘Apparently questioning ‘Am I a narcissist?’ means you're not,’ says Bethany. ‘But I don't think that'll make any difference in my daughter's eyes.

‘I think I'll always be a narcissist to her because I don't fit this framework which she's got in her head of what her mother should be.’

Despite the hurt she feels over the book and letter, Bethany is determined to try and get her relationship with her daughter back on track.

'I want to be part of her life,’ says Bethany. ‘I don't want to be intrusive, but I want us to be a family and keep that connection and tie and know that we're there for each other. But she's got to want that too.

‘I sent her a text and said: ‘I'm re-reading your book and I'm revisiting your letter and I just wanted to say to you, I'm really sorry. You must have been feeling terrible.’

‘I ended just saying: ‘If what you need to do is cut me out of your life for the rest of your life, I will have to live with that, if that's best thing for you. But I just want you to know if you suddenly decide for any reason whatsoever, you'd like to see me or you need me or want me, I’m here.’

After texting her daughter, Bethany got a response.

‘What was lovely was she put a kiss at the end of it, which I thought was really encouraging. She said, ‘I'll come back. I just want to digest what you've written, and I'll text you, I’ll message you sometime’. And that was it.

‘I thought, these are little nuggets of hope. I have to hang on to those.’

You can listen to the whole Woman’s Hour’s Narcissistic Mothers series here. Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter @bbcwomanshour.