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THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ´óÏó´«Ã½ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY. IN TOUCH - Poker and rugby the blind way

TX: 10.10.2017 2040-2100

PRESENTER: PETER WHITE PRODUCER: LEE KUMUTAT

White Good evening. Tonight, we’ve got a complete studio full and we’re going to need them all. We’ll be talking about books and newspapers, apparently available with one word from you. A form of rugby designed for blind people to play. And there’s already a bit of a card school going on here. So who’s going to deal? This isn’t the proper way to do it, if you’re actually running a proper tournament, but Margaret Granger, as you’re here… Granger

Yes I’ll deal.

Okay, okay, give them a shuffle first.

Right.

Okay. And if you start to deal. What we’re really trying to establish here is how you play tournament poker if you’re blind, but the rules won’t allow you to use a braille pack of cards. So, everyone, we’ve had our cards dealt – I can’t find mine but never mind – there they are, good. So we’ve had three cards dealt here and we will be playing this game and talking to Steven and Daniel about how they play this game together a little later on. So hold your cards for a moment guys and Steven will be explaining how we do this in a few minutes.

But first, time was when the British Wireless for the Blind Fund was literally what it said on the tin, it provided free radios for blind people and indeed it still does. But technology has moved on and they’ve moved with it. And their latest scheme is one which they hope will allow people to access a range of books, newspapers, radio stations and other audio material using just a tablet, a tap of your finger and a voice command.

Well Margaret Granger is here from the fund. Just explain a bit more about what this scheme involves.

Well Bumble Bee is a specially developed suite of apps, designed to bring the world of audio to visually-impaired people. We had a look at the national statistics and people who are over the age of 75 who have already lost their sight, according to the national statistics on broadband use, 75% of them do not use the internet. However, if we look at those aged 65 to 75 who’ve already lost their sight or maybe losing their sight or have the potential to lose their sight, 75% of them do use the internet.

So you’re trying to provide something for this generation now which is not comfortable with the internet and I understand from the stats doesn’t really plan to become so.

That’s true but also the young at heart – the 75 plus – who have no experience of the internet we want to engage with them and help them learn and understand because it brings so much to people that we feel they should have the opportunity to look at it.

So that’s who it’s aimed at and exactly what will they be able to access?

Well on our suite of apps we have books, local talking newspapers, we have a community section and podcasts – all sorts of things they can listen to – as well as radio which we’re known for.

And when you say community section I gather the idea of this is that it’ll kind of be some kind of closed system where people can talk to each other?

Absolutely, we’re still building it at the moment, although the app is available, and what you can do is leave an audio message and it will be available under certain titles and then people can talk to each other in a safe environment because you don’t actually know who else is there – what their name is or their address or anything like that.

Now it’s interesting that you’re doing this because it is a departure from what you’ve done in the past, although you have been streaming things, but you’re not alone in this field are you, the Royal National Institute of Blind People is now offering RNIB in your pocket, which gives people its own very large talking book collection….

That’s right, yes.

…and also newspapers and magazines and more besides. There’s also Synaptic, which is a commercial system, have you rather missed the boat?

I don’t think so. I think we have more content on our suite of apps than anybody else because we have local talking newspapers, we do have books – they are eBooks – although we are wanting to increase to human voice. So we do – and podcasts as well, of which there are hundreds of thousands.

But of course the audio – the biggest audio library specifically for blind people is the RNIB one, have you got them?

We haven’t got them, we would love to have their books on our app, the door is always open.

Won’t people who aren’t yet online find their own solution rather than one built for them?

What we’re aiming for is people who like the idea, can’t afford it themselves and we give them an opportunity with a free piece of equipment to access all the audio.

And I suppose that is important, you are a charity and it is free.

Absolutely, we help the people who are most in need.

Right, let me bring in David Williams, he’s here to tell us about this new form of rugby for blind people but David you’re also an independent trainer on assistive technology. What do you make of this idea?

I certainly recognise the problem that you describe – the over 75s perhaps missing out. Many of those people obviously just don’t have an appetite for anything new, I can imagine taking a new gadget to my gran and she’d just say take it away David, I just don’t want to know. And then I’m listening to you talking and I’m trying to grasp what it is you’re describing here, so it’s going to be even harder then. So it’s a suite of apps but then there’s a piece of equipment?

We provide the suite of apps on a piece of equipment…

How much demand do you anticipate for this?

Well if I can just say that our service is standard against radios and this equipment and we provide all the training completely free of charge until the person is comfortable using it. We’re aiming for up to 5,000 over the next five years to be available.

Okay let’s just leave it there but don’t go away Margaret Granger because you’re going to need your poker hand in a minute. But not before we’ve found out about another potentially dangerous game. Most sports have been adapted for visually-impaired people, but rugby?! Well, it’s happening and Dave Williams you went along last night in Worcester to see it in action.

I’m standing in the corner of the pitch at the Worcester Warriors Rugby Club and I’m with a group of blind and visually-impaired players who are just engaged in a warm up exercise for a VI version of rugby known as hugby.

Okay so you’ve got Colin you know through cricket, Millie you know from cricket…

Why is it called hugby?

Because when you tackle you’re effectively doing that – hands around the back, slowly, it’ll stop your opponent…

Okay.

…rather than grabbing them by the waist or taking them down.

So that’s a standard rugby ball size and then there are bells inside it?

They are, yeah, little bells.

Now you said it was high-vis.

Yeah so it’s fluorescent. It’s got a stripe of blue on it but it’s mostly fluorescent with black markings.

We started off with a green colour which was great until the ball hit the floor and then we started looking at this yellow ball and then that was it, it sort of stuck really.

Simon Northcott is the disability lead with Worcester Warriors Rugby Club. Simon has set up hugby training sessions in Wolverhampton, Telford and Worcester, attracting players from across the West Midlands. As with other visually-impaired sports players fall into five sight categories with B1 players having the least sight.

Stafford had a coach who had 95% sight loss and she wanted to have an outlet for when her sight goes completely, so we sat down one morning and we talked about how we can devise a game for the visually-impaired and we worked with the local New College at Worcester and slowly but surely we became the model we’re now at, which is a seven-a-side format with an inclusive side where you can have older people playing, younger people playing and all the way across the B1 to B5 spectrum.

Because it has the ball bearings in it and also the battle, it’s brilliant for when it stops dead on the floor because the battle still keeps going afterwards.

Okay so we’re still going to clap our hands, we’re still going to move the ball along the line, alright and we’re going to walk forward as we do so.

So what’s the purpose of this exercise now?

It’s to get used to passing the ball backwards but moving ourselves forwards…

Right okay.

…because obviously some guys have never played rugby in their lives so this is a new concept of walking forward or running forward and passing backwards.

Worcester Warriors is not the only organisation offering hugby. The Change Foundation supported an England hugby tour to New Zealand in July. There’s talk of a six nations and even a hugby world cup. But Simon believes that the Worcester model offers something different.

Our model is more, for me, more inclusive, it’s to give everyone an opportunity to play it. Rather than turning it into a really competitive game of rugby what we want to do is allow people to explore rugby and then maybe get signposted to the Change Foundation model.

While all players have some visual impairment, some have additional disabilities, for example Rob is severely hearing impaired.

I like football but with blind football the ball’s always on the ground, so it’s difficult to hear the ball I think, I can only hear if somebody talks really close.

So potentially this could be a bit more accessible for you then if the ball is a little bit more round head height?

Yeah I think like I’m hearing the ball, it’s all new, so it’s all about sort of getting used to it and being confident you know.

Barriers to participation in sport are often encountered before we get near the field of play, as Lucy explains.

Confidence is a major issue, even just going to their local gym or something because they’re worried people will think they’re different. And also transport’s another big issue. Like today I’ve had a lift up here but I’m probably going to have to get a taxi back because it’s dark now, so walking back wouldn’t be an option, I just wouldn’t feel safe walking back the quickest way that I know.

Millie.

We’re just going to do some hug practise.

When you tackle a player you essentially put your arms round their shoulders?

Yeah it becomes a hug if you like, it’s to try and stop the progress but to make it a little bit more than just a touch game.

How do you manage the health and safety aspect, I mean you must get collisions of heads and things like that?

Yeah we’ve put risk assessments in place. We talk to each player to find out what their skill levels are but ultimately it’s a game – it’s a physical game that we can’t get around, it will be physical, somebody will get hurt, there’s no getting away from that but what we do need to do is minimise the amount of head knocks.

Do you understand the rules?

Kind of. Getting into rugby was tough but I kind of understand it.

That was Lucy ending Dave Williams’ report. And Dave, so did you get a taste for it, do you think you’d play?

I did get a taste for it, I have to admit to feeling a little bit self-conscious hugging strangers in the middle of a field but on a serious note I really think this is one to watch. We hear a lot about elite sport and actually it’s what’s happening at grass roots that is really interesting and anything I think that gets blind and partially-sighted people outdoors and doing something physical – it’s got to be a good thing.

Dave Williams thank you very much indeed.

Now, Steven Iglesias prefers his games a little less physical. He’s in London for a poker tournament, the 888 Live Festival London tournament, which is all fine but two and a half years ago Steven lost his sight and therefore he’s had to adapt his method of playing. Stephen, explain what you have to do now.

Yeah hello, awesome to be here. So right now I’m playing poker with my friend Daniel and the way we play poker now is quite different from everyone else. Daniel is whispering my cards to my ear and he’s also telling every action – what players are doing at the table – and I’m doing all the decisions and I’m telling Daniel what to do with my chips.

Now there are of course tactile cards and that’s where we changed the rules here, you can’t use tactile cards, we’re saying you can’t use only print cards, you’ve got to use tactile cards because it’s In Touch but was that ever an option for you?

Like braille cards?

Yes.

It’s just three years ago since I lost my sight, so I haven’t learned how to use braille yet.

Right. So you decided you needed to – you wanted to go on playing because this is quite big money, you can win quite a lot can’t you.

Yeah, yeah you can win a lot but it’s more about the game of poker, like I love the game. Of course I love money too but it’s such an awesome game, like I love the strategy aspect of the game. So that’s why I still play.

Well also with you is Daniel Grytten and we dealt a hand to three of us at the beginning of the programme. Just show us, Daniel and Steven, show us what you do.

Yeah like first I look at the cards he’s dealt and I whisper to him what his cards are.

Well go on then, whisper to him.

Right.

I suppose it would spoil it if I asked you what you said.

I’ll do it here though, I whisper to him in a reason though – like he had – like his cards is Jack, four of suits.

That’s a pretty bad hand so I would probably just throw it away and wait for another hand.

But how do you – it gets more complicated than that. Do you just keep this information in your head Steven?

Yeah of course, you have to have a good memory because poker is a lot about reads – you have to know your opponents and even though I throw away my cards I still have to pay attention because Daniel is like a commentator, he’s telling every action from every seat, he’s going from seat one, seat two and he’s telling what they’re doing. So I have to memorise what they’re doing.

Right and Daniel it’s not just about what cards they’ve got presumably, it’s about how they – yeah – so tell me the kind of things. I mean I’ve got some cards here, how am I looking, I am a bit distracted presenting a radio programme but just explain what’s going on.

Yeah like usually I’m not allowed to tell like the player’s reaction or how they look because I’m not allowed to influence Steven’s decisions. So the only thing I’m allowed to say is like what they’re actual actions are, like how much they bet and how much chips do they have behind.

But doesn’t that put you at a real disadvantage Steven because surely this is so much about body language isn’t this and how people are looking and things like that. How do you do deal with that?

Like before I lost my eyesight I was only playing online poker, I didn’t like travel around to play live poker. So for me it’s almost still as playing online poker because I can’t see the players, just like online I can’t see anyone. But I still have to remember like all the betting patterns and like how they’re playing each situation. So I can still tell who’s a good player or who’s a bad player.

Of course there’s also a lot of noise in tournaments, there’s a lot of stuff going on, so how much of a problem is that?

Usually there’s no problem, sometimes there might be a problem, especially if I play with friends back home because then some of my friends are drunk and like shouting and then I have to like tell Daniel like four times can you tell me my cards again, can you tell my cards again, can’t hear. But when I play like around the world there’s usually not a problem.

Was there a problem about the idea that you would have somebody actually talking to you in the tournaments themselves?

I didn’t think that they would allow us to do that but at first we went to the Norwegian championships and they said it was completely fine…

Really?

…yeah there were other blind players who were playing before me.

Visually-impaired not blind but yeah.

Yeah visually-impaired yeah.

Right and they didn’t say hang on you can’t do that because you’ve got somebody actually giving you information as you play?

There are some players who sit at the table and like ask the dealer why are they allowed to do that, they’re like playing together, that can’t be right.

But the ruling body has allowed it?

Yeah as long as Daniel is sticking to the rules and the rules is that I’m doing all the decisions and Daniel can’t influence my decisions.

And just finally, how good are you because there is money to be won here isn’t there, quite good money, how much have you won and what’s your biggest win?

My biggest win so far is actually after I lost my eyesight. I went to Las Vegas now this summer and I won $25,000. So that’s my biggest win.

Well the very best of luck Steven and Daniel and thanks for coming over a day earlier to talk to us. And my thanks too to Margaret Granger and Dave Williams for also becoming temporary card sharks.

If you want to comment on or query anything in tonight’s programme you can call our actionline for 24 hours afterwards on 0800 044 044. You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or you can go to our website and click on contact us, that’s www.bbc.co.uk/intouch, from where you can also download tonight’s podcast. And that’s it for today. From me, Peter White, producer Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.