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THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ´óÏó´«Ã½ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.Ìý

IN TOUCH – New CEO of Guide Dogs

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TX:Ìý 19.12.2017Ìý 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý CHERYL GABRIEL

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White

Good evening.Ìý Tonight, our first opportunity to speak to the new CEO of Guide Dogs.Ìý And growing old gracefully, one of radio’s truly great comedy script writers shares some of his techniques for coping with ageing and failing sight.

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Clip – Denis Norden

Well it’s not so much making up jokes as playing with words mentally, you know, words ending in ‘able’ because I can try and make it ‘a bull’ – it’s too complicated and ridiculous but that is the thing I use for getting off to sleep at night.

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White

More from the comparable Denis Norden later.

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But first, since the sudden departure of Richard Leaman in September 2016 Guide Dogs has spent a year without a chief executive.Ìý But this autumn Tom Wright was appointed to the post and this is our first opportunity to put some of our and your questions to him.Ìý For the previous eight years Tom has been head of Age UK, before that he had wide experience within the tourism industry.Ìý Well when he came into our studio yesterday I first wanted to know about any plans he had to employ more visually-impaired people within the charity.

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Wright

Well I think we should certainly be very proactive in encouraging all types of employment opportunity and something like 12% of all our staff, we have nearly 1600 staff, have some type of disability.Ìý And we do really look to and employ many people and many guide dog service users in parts of our operations around the country and indeed on our board as well.Ìý So yes we do encourage that and we’d welcome more guide dog service users, either working or supporting or volunteering for us.

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White

Because it is a very specific partnership – the guide dog owner and the dog – you could argue that of all the kind of charities that the specifics of this are probably best understood by people who actually have to do it day after day in their own personal lives.

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Wright

Indeed and there are 5,000 current guide dog service users across the country and many of course have had several guide dogs in their lifetime, they have enormous experience and expertise and I’ve just spent the first few months going round the country visiting all the different local offices and mobility centres that Guide Dogs have and meeting thousands of our staff and volunteers and service users.Ìý So I’ve very much been listening and engaging with them in the recent months.

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White

So I wonder if you’ve picked up something that we’ve picked up over the last couple of years or so which is that there’s quite a strong feeling amongst some guide dog owners that by diversifying into other areas, such as the different aspects of mobility for example and working with children, that the organisation has perhaps diluted some of its concentration on its core activity, i.e. training, providing and servicing guide dogs?

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Wright

Well I wouldn’t really see it that way.Ìý Clearly we have a tremendous service with guide dogs, as I said it goes back over 85 years but of course many of our services go hand in hand with that and it might be that we’re supporting younger people with habilitation or mobility services until they go on to have a guide dog.

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White

But isn’t that other people’s job?

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Wright

Not necessarily because there’s a transition perhaps to people becoming a guide dog owner and there are also people perhaps who later in life stop using a guide dog and then still require support in their services.Ìý And we focus on the mobility and the skills to support people.Ìý So I don’t think it’s either/or and let’s also remember that we raise separate funds for some of our other services, so we’re not necessarily diverting funds from our guide dogs to support those other activities.

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White

You raised the issue of money, and this is something in people’s minds perhaps over something that people have always been concerned about, which is the length of waiting lists for dogs and the amount of time that people have to wait.Ìý But we’ve heard, for example, from Lynne Holdsworth who trained her own dog in fact but is now returning to the Guide Dogs Association for her next one but is still concerned about this aspect of what you do.

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Holdsworth

So I phoned up the Guide Association in Northern Ireland to ask for a dog.Ìý On the 16th October the rehab officer came out to fill in the forms with me.Ìý She said that a GDMI, which is a guide instructor, would come out soon after.Ìý Up till now I haven’t heard anything.Ìý So I called them up a couple of weeks ago and they said it’s likely to be January, at least, before somebody comes out because they’re very short staffed. So this means I’m waiting at least four months to actually go on the waiting list.Ìý The way I see it I’m actually on a waiting list to go on the waiting list.Ìý

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They’ve said that there’s really not much they can do, that they’re very short staffed and they will get to me as soon as they can.

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Walker

From their point of view however, if they’re short staffed and maybe if there’s a shortage of dogs perhaps this is just a practical way of dealing with that problem for them.

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Holdsworth

But why are they short staffed and why are they short of dogs – that’s a question I would ask?Ìý Because they’re not a poor charity.

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White

That was Lynne Holdsworth talking to our reporter Tom Walker.

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Tom Wright, you’ve been listening to that, I can’t do any better than put the questions that she’s put there – why are you short staffed and why are you short of dogs?

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Wright

Well I wouldn’t say that we are short staffed or short of dogs.Ìý The average waiting time for a guide dog is about eight months and that’s been fairly consistent for some time.Ìý

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White

And does that include the wait to get on the waiting list?

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Wright

Well what we do and I’ve seen this going to visit all our operations around the country we have like a journey board of all the dogs that are coming through, all our current guide dog service users and perhaps when their dogs are coming up for retirement and indeed new applicants for guide dogs and we’re tracking and monitoring and looking to match out dogs as effectively as possible against that.Ìý I think it is true to say that there are some variations in different parts of the country and we should always remember that our dogs are very specifically matched and therefore some people might wait longer if they need a particular type of dog or they might have a particular need – some tasks for their dog or they might need to be dual trained.Ìý So we do have to manage those different needs and we try to be flexible around the country and address those needs accordingly.

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White

But Lynne has been told that you’re short staffed, that’s been given to her as a reason as why she has to wait, now that suggests that that could either be lack of suitable trainers or lack of money to pay them – I don’t know, I’m interested what you think the answer to that is.

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Wright

It’s certainly not any issues in terms of resourcing and she was referring to our guide dog mobility instructors, now of course they do take three years to train, so that’s quite a long term management of our staffing and it could be that you have some illness or some local loss of staff.Ìý And we can’t just instantly rustle up a new guide dog mobility instructor.Ìý What we would try and do is move some of our staff around the country to make sure that we have a good consistent service in different parts of the country.Ìý And I’m sure that our team will be talking to Lynne and working with her and explaining where we are in that matching process with her.

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White

But usually if you say that it takes time to train them that usually suggests that there’s been a shortfall earlier on which you’re now trying to solve – is that the case?

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Wright

Not necessarily, but a lot of our guide dog mobility instructors might be guide dog trainers first, so a guide dog trainer takes a year to be trained, a guide dog mobility instructor takes three years and we have a degree of succession planning around that.Ìý Clearly, as with also the breeding and training of our dogs, there is a lead time and obviously our puppies are walked for just over a year before they go into training and then they would receive up to 30 weeks of training before they go to class and match in with an individual and service user.Ìý So it’s not a process that you can just accelerate quickly or overnight.

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White

But the other possible explanation that will come to people’s minds, therefore, is that there may be a problem in the breeding process, in actually getting dogs that are suitable to be brought through quickly enough.

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Wright

Well clearly we try to match our breeding with demand, we don’t want to over-breed what are very specialist dogs and we constantly look to match that to demand.Ìý And as I said it is a complex process, where you’ve got to get the right level of staffing, the right level of puppy breeding and indeed the whole process takes some years to bring through.Ìý But we are very focused on meeting our waiting times and waiting lists…

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White

Do you think an average of eight months is good enough?

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Wright

I think that when you think of what goes into it, eight months and it will be less and might be slightly more in particular circumstances, and we’re constantly trying to meet the individual needs of people and therefore there has to be some flexibility to reflect that.Ìý So yes but we are working on further increasing, through the instruction of what we call positive reinforcement, a very focused 16 week training programme, to further increase our capacity to bring dogs through to class, as we call it.

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White

One more listener question I’d like to put to you.Ìý Bill Guest got in touch, he said – Why when applying for a replacement guide dog are experienced owners, such as my wife and I, treated in exactly the same way as completely new applicants with no account being taken of our experience?Ìý The implication being that it’s a rather inflexible one size fits all system.

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Wright

No I don’t see much at all and I’ve had the benefit of going out to visit all our different guide dog, mobility centres and training schools around the country and in each of those centres you’ll find a big board and they would have identified people whose dogs are coming close to retirement some years out and they’re planning around that to recognise the potential retirement of that dog and to start the training and matching process sufficiently early enough for that.Ìý So actually I think there’s a very good process in place.

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White

But with comments like the ones we’ve heard would a bit of competition be good for Guide Dogs?Ìý I mean Lynne Holdsworth did – is unusual in training her own but people do do it.Ìý In countries like the US and Australia there are a number of guide dog providers, which means people have a choice.Ìý Do you think that that might not be such a bad thing?

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Wright

Well I think there are several dog assistance charities here in the UK…

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White

But none for visually-impaired people.

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Wright

There’s a very small one I think that also does but it’s very small in its nature.Ìý And I think we do benefit from the economies of scale of both the breeding and training programmes.Ìý And also we cover the postcodes, i.e. we have a footprint across the country which means we’re close to the people we support.Ìý And that would be quite difficult for perhaps a smaller charity to do.Ìý So there are trainers and instructors very close to the communities and I think that’s a real benefit that Guide Dogs brings here in the UK.

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White

If you looked ahead five years what would you have wanted to have achieved?

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Wright

I think that – I mean clearly the demand for guide dog services, not just for guide dogs themselves but the services that we provide for children and young people and our sighted guide services, that demand continues to increase.Ìý So we are looking at how we can provide more services and we also want to extend our focus not just on mobility but into the broader guidance to help people in terms of their wellbeing and living the lives that they want to.Ìý So extending somewhat and introducing new technologies and supplementing our expertise with those technologies so that we can reach and support and help more people.Ìý And to do that across the sector by working more closely with RNIB and all the local charities around the country.

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White

Tom Wright, our first but I suspect by no means our last interview with him.

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Now next week I think we can promise you a bit of a treat.Ìý Our Boxing Day half hour special gives a very In Touch twist to Radio 4 quiz and panel shows, involving some old and valued friends of the programme.Ìý

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One of the stars is a pioneer of post-war radio comedy.Ìý Denis Norden, in tandem with his writing partner Frank Muir, brought us such treasures as Take it from here; My word and My music.Ìý About a decade ago Denis’ sight began to fail, as the result of macular disease, but he’s dealt with that and with ageing, he’s now a sprightly 95, with typical equanimity.Ìý He starred on our 50th anniversary programme six years ago and as a prelude to next week I went to visit him at home a few days ago where he told me what had been happening to him since.

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Norden

Well it’s hardly what you’d call action packed.Ìý It’s going – one just – not a lot of things happen except technological advance just leaves you more and more in a state of wonderment without actually accepting anything that is happening there.

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White

Are you actually using much of the technology Denis and if so what?

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Norden

No I’m… I don’t know I like instructions on a box of matches, you know, no tech…. actually I did try to do a book and of course I couldn’t see the writing I had this voice activated thing, it was a very early form of voice activation.Ìý And they said all you have to do is to dictate it but they had to teach me how to use it and it took six weeks to teach me and then they said all you do is dictate it.Ìý And after they left I picked up the mic and I realised I’ve never dictated anything in my life, I could only scribble things.

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White

And it’s a real skill – dictating – isn’t it?

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Norden

Absolutely, yeah.

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White

I’m going to tell you something funny because I think this is hilarious.Ìý When we were at school, I was at a blind school, and usually we wrote our essays in braille but some of us could touch type but normally you would write your essays in braille and when the exam – when my O Levels came along they suddenly said to us on the Monday morning of the O Levels – Oh you’re going to dictate these, we’ve got some boys and girls in from the local grammar school and you’re going to dictate them.Ìý And it’s – I mean, like you, I’d never dictated anything in my life before, we were completely lost and – how I ever got any O Levels.

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Norden

I know Eric, a great friend of mine, Eric Sykes, he had the same macular degeneration thing as I had and he decided he would definitely go on handwriting this book and have a secretary read it and type it and so on.Ìý And so using his pen he did page after page of it and when he handed it to her she said there’s been no ink in the pen.

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White

Oh no, oh god, poor old Eric.Ìý Could he ever have a go at it again or did he say that’s…

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Norden

Oh yes, yes.

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White

He did?

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Norden

No, no he wrote a lovely book.

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White

I mean there is a lot of stuff that goes with growing old obviously, which you’re dealing with – lots of doctors, lots of waiting rooms, lots of appointments – you and Frank and subsequently you, you’ve always managed to find the funny side of almost everything, have you managed to find the funny side of visual impairment or whatever we choose to call it?

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Norden

Well that’s one of them is the euphemisms people use.Ìý I always say that I’m hard of seeing and that seems… but I can’t really put my finger on anything that would be funny except a number of times that I bent down to pick up a piece of white paper and found it’s a patch of sunlight.

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White

Do you still – I mean I would have thought that making up jokes and stories has been so much of your life – do you still find yourself doing it?

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Norden

Well it’s not so much making up jokes as playing with words mentally, you know, that is the thing I use for getting off to sleep at night.Ìý That’s the way I just go through like words ending in ‘able’ because I can try make it ‘a bull’ if I can find a word that ends – it’s too complicated and ridiculous but it does get you off – it might just be boredom.

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White

Denis Norden, it’s lovely to see you again, it’s great to see you in good form and thank you very much for coming and playing on our quiz.

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Norden

Right, thank you for asking us and can I wish a happy New Year to all your listeners and especially to you Peter, who I can now confide has just told me that he’s preparing a daily programme for roundabout lunchtime on the dangers of swimming in shark infested waters and he’s going to call it You and Jaws.

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White

Denis, happy New Year to you.

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More from Denis and many other well known In Touch names in next week’s Boxing Day special.Ìý From my, Peter White, producer Cheryl Gabriel and the team, goodbye.

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